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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1272
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Posted - 2012.05.09 16:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Inferno is burning its way towards Tranquility and with Inferno our Factional Warfare received a massive load of dev love!
New interfaces, improved game mechanics, more meaningful actions, new tools for better group efforts ... all this and more will be implemented. Dive into the details which are all available in this devblog by CCP Ytterbium from Team Game of Drones. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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Elsa Nietchize
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
20
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
first |
Pandorium9
Pandorium Prime The CodeX Alliance
14
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
The "Comments" link is to the wrong page.
EDIT: it works now |
Astoreni
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Woot!? |
Capri Sern
The Stand Alone Complex
2
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Liking most of the changes. Might even give FW a go now. Not sure Datacore farming represents much of a passive income tbh. It's like putting -ú1 into a savings account when you're 12 so you can buy a zimmerframe when you hit 70.
Edit: Grammer |
Nevigrofnu Mrots
Heroes of the Past Goonswarm Federation
4
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
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BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
45
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Is current Sov held staying the same or being reset, sounds like it is staying the same? Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Destru Kaneda
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
48
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Looks ******* awesome, can't wait. http://minmatar.eve-kill.net/ http://binaerpilot.no/ GMU d-(---)pu s+++:-- a-- C++++$ U>+++ P+ L+ E---- W+++$ w PS+++ PE-- Y++ PGP-- t+ tv-- b+ D++ G e- h r++ y+* |
T'san Manaan
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
23
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
Changes look good so far can't wait to see it go live.
Just some thoughts I would like to see implemented in the future.
1. Missions go to the nearest "Contested" system to keep the mission farmers in the combat zone. 2. Benefits to P.I. and industry (I.E. faster manufacturing) for upgrading systems 3. captured stations use current Sov holder Agents. 4. station lockouts to include anyone with a negative faction standing or outlaw status.
Other than that I like everything I see so far especially the no docking for your enemies |
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
I would have thought there would be more responses by now. Some of the changes sound good, others have swaths of the player base up in arms.
Gotta log on the Jita alt and see what has happened to the datacore specualtion |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
549
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:Is current Sov held staying the same or being reset, sounds like it is staying the same?
We won't reset anything. Occupancy will be directly translated into Sovereignty in FW systems. |
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Eric Deloitte
The Flowing Penguins Iron Oxide.
4
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
As the new FW is doing away with Occupancy and using sovereigty so this 'Sovereignty Reset' may mean:
1) Sovereignty may be 'Reset' to what the current occupancy is on patch day
2) Sovereignty may remain as it is with Occupancy simply being removed
3) Sovereignty & Occupancy may simply be removed making systems effectivley neutral with us having to fight over them again to 'set' sovereignty, but nobody being locked out from the start.
Could we have some clarification as to what will happen? |
Caecilia Arene
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nice! Even considering giving it a go! |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2320
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
We've come a long way from "the devs will never touch FW again!"
Thanks Team Game of Drones, for all your hard work. Looking forward to all the paid pew pew May 22! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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ZenithDK
Danish Space Pioneers Frontier Trading and Co Alliance
2
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
This looks pretty awesome!
Have been thinking about getting into FW for a long time, but I didn't see much point in it - with 2 characters doing datacore mining, there will suddenly be a big interest in it for me.
One thing though: Doesn't this sort of encourage that you take sov, buy all your data cores - loose sov, watch prices spike, and then you dump your cheaply acquired stash? If a sufficiently large corp in FW can be deciding factor/work together with others, what's to prevent this? |
Mike deVoid
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
8
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
I mentioned this at Fanfest as a question and CCP Soniclover seemed to take this on board for consideration, but please please please implement from the start diminishing returns for the LP store cost reductions. I notice you have mentioned this in the blog, but I think it's really important that when coming from an extreme that the first win is the biggest slice and that the last win gives the smallest.
I think this rewards the guys fighting from zero the most - and who deserve it! On the other hand, moving from 80% to 100% of systems should give you the smallest reward since you are already steamrolling the opposition. |
Caiman Graystock
EVE University Ivy League
22
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
Does this mean that if the caldari militia gain sovereignty over a system that was previously gallente, for instance, that system actually falls under the complete sovereignty of the Caldari State, and becomes Caldari Space whilst it is held? |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
942
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
I need new pants.
Great changes, guys! I'd love to see more things influenced by system upgrades in the future, like for example how easy it is to capture a system (VP payout), or other changes to encourage actual fighting, like the missions being redone to be a bit easier, but to be able to be closed by the opposing militia (like complexes).
Still, this is an amazing start, and I can't wait to see where FW goes from here.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Kaylen Khurelem
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
ZenithDK wrote:This looks pretty awesome!
Have been thinking about getting into FW for a long time, but I didn't see much point in it - with 2 characters doing datacore mining, there will suddenly be a big interest in it for me.
One thing though: Doesn't this sort of encourage that you take sov, buy all your data cores - lose sov, watch prices spike, and then you dump your cheaply acquired stash? If a sufficiently large corp in FW can be deciding factor/work together with others, what's to prevent this?
Taking Sov, when you're low on Sov, is harder. So you'd have to work hard at getting it back. As such, it seems fairly balanced. It's only unbalanced if you get people on the other side to do the same thing. |
Mashie Saldana
Veto. Veto Corp
504
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
Did someone nuke the blog, it is showing as an empty page here?
Edit - It is visible again. Dominique Vasilkovsky Mashie Saldana Monica Foulkes |
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Mike deVoid
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
8
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
I have 2 more questions:
1/ No planned changes to Faction Navy in highsec? Did you look at changes here and drop them, or did you just feel there was no compelling reason to make adjustments here?
2/ Will you consider allowing corps/alliances to swap sides in the war? What if I want to play FW on hardmode and continually join the losing side as the war shifts or join an FW militia essentially as a mercenary hire? |
Zarnak Wulf
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
335
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
I like the datacores and the shifting LP prices. As one side wins their stuff will become dirt cheap. Those in it for a profit will get bored as a faction's items swamp the market. The losing side will hopefully gain followers as their items become very expensive and coveted on the market. It will hopefully self regulate.
I would like to see new items in addition to the datacores added to the LP stores. And is there any time frame or even belief that the faction Osprey, Scythe, Exequror, and Augoror could be looked at? They really are quite horrible. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
942
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
ZenithDK wrote:This looks pretty awesome!
Have been thinking about getting into FW for a long time, but I didn't see much point in it - with 2 characters doing datacore mining, there will suddenly be a big interest in it for me.
One thing though: Doesn't this sort of encourage that you take sov, buy all your data cores - loose sov, watch prices spike, and then you dump your cheaply acquired stash? If a sufficiently large corp in FW can be deciding factor/work together with others, what's to prevent this? Aaaaand we have our first metagaming idea for the new FW system: datacore cartel! Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
728
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:44:00 -
[24] - Quote
Excellent changes. There will be a lot of knock-on effects even outside of FW. This is really great CCP. Nice work!
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Rhaile Vhindiscar
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
"You want to do research, fine? The best way is to go kill people." I can see how that would play out to a potential scientist. So, are you really telling industrialist to join fw or just creating an interdependence without any real justification?
Overhaul datacore mining some other way. Get datacores out of FW. It doesn't make sense fluff wise or mechanic wise. You just got done telling people you're not going to let them shoot npcs to build things (drone nerf)...then you tell them you are going to make them shoot npcs to build things (fw overhaul). All you did was change the position in the production chain.
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Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
720
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
But i'm not in FW |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
262
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
wonderful so all the systems the minnies have been steamrolling for the past week will stay they way till the new changes make it take 5x as long.
that makes sense thanks. /sarcasm/ http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Clodim
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:46:00 -
[28] - Quote
So basically nothing changed with CCP, you have an idea, and you will enforce it no matter what players think. One might think you've learned from last year... |
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
139
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:51:00 -
[29] - Quote
I like how there's two pages of awesome praise, then two whineposts at the very end. Mission accomplished, I presume. "Shoot at anything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later."
"Do not be too positive. The light at the end of the tunnel could be a train." - Franz Kafka |
Nanshara
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:52:00 -
[30] - Quote
Clodim wrote:So basically nothing changed with CCP, you have an idea, and you will enforce it no matter what players think. One might think you've learned from last year...
Do you even read the Dev Blogs - This is all subject to change. reading the thread your the first negative comment so guess you better HTFU |
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
943
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:54:00 -
[31] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:wonderful so all the systems the minnies have been steamrolling for the past week will stay they way till the new changes make it take 5x as long.
that makes sense thanks. /sarcasm/ Stock up on Amarr navy ships now, sell later when prices spike to afford your own steamroller? Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Tia Aves
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:56:00 -
[32] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:ZenithDK wrote:This looks pretty awesome!
Have been thinking about getting into FW for a long time, but I didn't see much point in it - with 2 characters doing datacore mining, there will suddenly be a big interest in it for me.
One thing though: Doesn't this sort of encourage that you take sov, buy all your data cores - loose sov, watch prices spike, and then you dump your cheaply acquired stash? If a sufficiently large corp in FW can be deciding factor/work together with others, what's to prevent this? Aaaaand we have our first metagaming idea for the new FW system: datacore cartel!
I like this idea a lot, deals between opposing sides which could result in increased profit. It would probably be fairly hard to do but its a great notion. |
Valkyrs
Deep Vein Trading
6
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:58:00 -
[33] - Quote
Great work guys, the idea of Factional Warfare sounded interesting to me when I started, but was urged by my mentor never to touch it, it was pretty much broken. Glad to see these things being resurrected. It gives me a conduit into PVP.
I'm a RP farmer, so I appreciate it not being phased out, I've spent a lot of time farming rep on several R&D corps. The added cost is low enough that it doesn't bother me, if it provides a money pit to bury some inflation I'm fine with that.
Also for the factional warfare system, I haven't played on Singularity but how will you handle unbalanced situations, where everyone joins FW for the faction with the most control? I realize that you plan on having diminishing returns, but it seems like that won't be enough to sway people to the losing side, or even keep the ones that are already on it.
Possible Improvements:
I believe running missions for R&D agents currently doubles your RP for the day, and ups your rep with that agent. Why not tie the price of cores to the agents rep, maybe making it more expensive then what you've set up, and have it go to a minimum of half. I'd personally run the missions more often if I knew they had a lasting effect on my wallet, I love that almost everything in EVE has an impact or can be changed.
Give incentive to players on a losing/smaller team. Perhaps a portion of all LP gained for a faction (5%, etc) could be distributed amongst all it's members, and thus there would be an allure just to be in small factions. Maybe once a faction reaches a critical size, systems that are farther away from the core of the faction receive a debuff relative to their distance, such as weaker guns or weaker tanks. And inversely a very small faction could get outlaying buffs to promote growth (and obviously, combat!).
Maybe you guys already have mechanics for this in place, I'm just thinking of the extreme cases where factions are close to collapse, where you want to entice players to join the losing faction as much as the winning one. Other then that I think the diminishing returns idea will provide a nice ebb and flow.
Keep up the good work!
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Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
20
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:59:00 -
[34] - Quote
Excellent idea with the datacore! (yes, it is ironic)
Datacore available via Faction LP store -> no need to train science skills at all. Together with new LP reward, you might be able to profit by teaming up with your enemy.
Destroy ship, get datacores form LP, sell datacores, profit (which is btw not restricted to datacores)
I hope you did take that into calculations.
Short, I don't know about the faction warfare changes but changes in R&D handling ... why at all? CCP does not like it and now they are kicking the ass of those who invested their training time to be able to use it, just because it's too passive. Well, how about getting rid of
- Moon Mining? --- passive isk for corps/alliances and
- T2 BPOs? --- passive isk for their owners, compared to inventing T2 BPCs from T1 BPC and the profit is great
So, unless providing access to some data, that's the wrong way to go. |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
2314
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Posted - 2012.05.09 17:59:00 -
[35] - Quote
I made the pictures in the blog a little bigger and made them link to even bigger versions. Go click them and stuff! CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
77
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:00:00 -
[36] - Quote
From the Blog: Capturing complexes will also cause half of the gained LP amount to be removed from the enemy Infrastructure Hub in the solar system
All below assumes solo plex capture.
a) If the enemy system you capture the plex in has no LP in its iHUB, do you still get the same amount of LP (e.g. 10,000 for a minor)
b) If the enemy system you capture the plex in has LP in it's iHUB, do you get more LP (e.g. 10,000 base + 5,000 = 15,000 LP for a minor) |
wallenbergaren
University of Caille Gallente Federation
41
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:01:00 -
[37] - Quote
The price fluctuations in the LP store seem way too big. The difference between the two price extremes is a factor of 16. You're going to end up with LP being worthless because everything in the LP store costs too much, or LP being worthless because everything is too cheap and the market is oversaturated. |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
78
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:02:00 -
[38] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:Is current Sov held staying the same or being reset, sounds like it is staying the same? We won't reset anything. Occupancy will be directly translated into Sovereignty in FW systems.
There will be tears. Though, I think this is the only option. |
Cristl
Perkone Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:07:00 -
[39] - Quote
Forums, you can eat my posts but you will never take my freedom! Anyway:
Are you sure about the datacore changes? Tying them to factional warfare doesn't seem to fit with research to be honest, and datacore farming was touted as passive income from the start.
Why else would you grind those horrible standings, pay all that money in skillbooks and then take up months of skill training time if not to either invent for yourself or sell to other inventors. It's the whole point. The missions are as boring as hell and pay poorly - no one does it for anything other than passive income. Now that's deemed undesirable? And why would the militia get datacores, surely they should get faction shiny stuff instead? |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1606
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:08:00 -
[40] - Quote
I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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PC5
Szwadron Frozen Synapse
3
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:09:00 -
[41] - Quote
@CCP Ytterbium
1. Do you plan to check LP store item requirements? Some offers are crazy!
For example : Imperial Navy Medium EMP Smartbomb BPC 5 run - costs 270k LP + 108m isk + 358 Republic Fleet Captain Insignia I + 595 Republic Fleet High Captain Insignia I where Republic Fleet Captain Insignia I x1 = 1,7m Republic Fleet Captain Insignia I x358 = 608,6m Republic Fleet High Captain Insignia I x1 = 0,7m Republic Fleet High Captain Insignia I x595 = 416,5m
Lets Assume 1k lp = 1m
Total cost for that BPC in isks - 1133,1m + 270m = 1403,1 - thats just plain wroooong. After manufacturing (who would be so stupid to teake that offer and do that) - 280,62m / module
Theres at last 20 such offers which requirements are totaly inbalanced. Ive pointed out just one.
2. What about cynojamers? No info about them in devblog. Have you abandoned that idea for FW?
I and other pilots would be realy grateful if you can answer those questions.
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Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
28
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:09:00 -
[42] - Quote
Bagehi wrote:[quote=CCP Ytterbium] There will be tears. Though, I think this is the only option. If the NFL were to change the number of points for a touchdown from six to one, they wouldn't do during the Super Bowl with one team down by five.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
943
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:11:00 -
[43] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?
-Liang All of the people looking for cheap rewards will join the winning faction, which can be good for the losing one if they want to gain heaps of LP from killing clueless people looking for easy money. Plus, it is very hard to swap factions due to the massive standings penalties you take from running the complexes or missions, so it provides reasons for people to stick with their side and drive it forward.
The 4x multiplier seems exaggerated, but it sounds like it would only occur when one side literally owns all FW space and has it all upgraded. I'm expecting more of a 1.5x multiplier maximum with the regular sovereignty swings. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
28
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:12:00 -
[44] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?
-Liang I made the suggestion there be an underdog modifier for a losing faction's PvP kills. It probably got lost in the forum heroics. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Tanaka Aiko
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
69
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:13:00 -
[45] - Quote
PC5 wrote:
2. What about cynojamers? No info about them in devblog. Have you abandoned that idea for FW?
oh yeah, that should be on the iHub upgrade list, they told about it before
anyway, it seems to be nice change for now, i'll give a try later :) |
BlindFury
Genbuku.
7
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:14:00 -
[46] - Quote
I can't remember if this already happens or not, but why not put datacores as a reward in hacking and analyzing deadspace sites along with the other changes listed?
BF |
Sheena Tzash
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:14:00 -
[47] - Quote
Sounds good but I'll try and get the obvious stuff out of the way:
1) How do we participate in FW? Will there be any sort of fleet finder & chat channels specifically available for FW?
2) Are the sites going to be balanced in a way to try and encourage solo and small gang pvp? If not how do you plan to stop / reduce a huge blob dominating FW or blobs camping out the FW sites setting an ambush?
3) How will participation affect my standings? I don't want to do some funtime pvp to find I've wrecked my faction standings and now I can't move into other factions space without being shot at.
4) How will participation affect me in high sec? Will it be open season to anyone flagged for FW or will the usual rules apply?
5) Will rewards be divided equally; even without entering combat? I could forsee fleets employing a dedicated scout to find war targets and I'm sure they'll want to get paid too, even if they don't fire a shot.
6) If we sign up for FW can we pick it up and drop is as much as we want to with affecting standings?
Thats all I can think of for now :D |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
51
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:14:00 -
[48] - Quote
Is there any benefit for fighting in a heavily upgraded system as opposed to a lightly upgraded system? better rewards for trying to take a Dominated system as opposed to newly conquered one? or are all payouts the same? ~ i can forsee there being one or two heavily defended systems that everyone uses to cash their LP in using alt couriers(for tags), while all the fighting goes on in contested systems,
How exactly are Datacores being introduced into FW? through LP stores? through FW only research agents? will they still require skills to use?
Why no rebalance of tags needed for individual items? or look at which tags drop from which types of npc ships?
Changes to where FW missions are located? only in contested areas or low upgraded areas?
Who is dropping the ihub? how/when is that dropped? Does all the LP have to be drained out of it first before it can be killed? |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
28
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:15:00 -
[49] - Quote
BlindFury wrote:I can't remember if this already happens or not, but why not put datacores as a reward in hacking and analyzing deadspace sites along with the other changes listed?
BF They already are. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1607
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:16:00 -
[50] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?
-Liang All of the people looking for cheap rewards will join the winning faction, which can be good for the losing one if they want to gain heaps of LP from killing clueless people looking for easy money. Plus, it is very hard to swap factions due to the massive standings penalties you take from running the complexes or missions, so it provides reasons for people to stick with their side and drive it forward. The 4x multiplier seems exaggerated, but it sounds like it would only occur when one side literally owns all FW space and has it all upgraded. I'm expecting more of a 1.5x multiplier maximum with the regular sovereignty swings.
If there's one thing I've learned about Eve, it's that people take things to the max. The 4x modifier will be hit almost immediately. How long did it take FW to be "won" the first time? Not long at all
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
77
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:17:00 -
[51] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?
-Liang
There is none. Even the plexing system is set up so you get no rewards for defensive plexing: Until all systems are held by one side both sides will just attack enemy plexes to get LP (and it's just as effective to attack an enemy system as it is to defend your own, and the former gives you LP while you do it). |
Xercodo
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Dark Matter Coalition
1072
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:18:00 -
[52] - Quote
This all sounds incredibly awesome and is making me consider joining. For the first time PVP could truly be profitable and/or sustainable :P The Drake is a Lie |
MR rockafella
Santa's Factory
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:18:00 -
[53] - Quote
How about you fix the fukin r.a.m. rounding bug in production first, a +4 year old bug still in game. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
729
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:19:00 -
[54] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?
-Liang I don't think player behavior will go that way. I for one would rather join the side that is loosing the war (unless it's amarr... never joining them) because you know there will be plenty of targets and joining the side that is already winning isn't much of an accomplishment. Some people would rather turn the tide of the war than mooch off the side that's winning, besides, you can always have an alt join the other team. In terms of absolute fighters, the winning side's numbers will probably tend to inflate more quickly... but I don't think victory will be stable as those who want to fight defect for the loosing side.
|
Zor'katar
Leeole's Legion
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:21:00 -
[55] - Quote
Any chance that when this hits, those with RP in the 50RP/DC agents could have those doubled? (You know, like just assume that we were all smart enough to cash out right before, and not make us actually do it at a time you determine?) |
Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1152
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:22:00 -
[56] - Quote
Caiman Graystock wrote:Does this mean that if the caldari militia gain sovereignty over a system that was previously gallente, for instance, that system actually falls under the complete sovereignty of the Caldari State, and becomes Caldari Space whilst it is held? This is a interesting question - as in will there be faction police hammering my minmatarish jump freighter if my faction loses the sovereignty. That is when I'm not taking part in faction warfare. Couldn't quite find the answer from the blog.
edit: ...and I'm not saying that it would be bad thing - I'm just saying that fair warning would be in place if this is the case.
Get |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:23:00 -
[57] - Quote
utility of items in the LP stores for nonFW people will drive most of the FW actual combat, Sale of cheap items from the FW store will drive most of the fighting, however because of the ship loss Lp mechanics, i don't think that there will be huge swings of Sov after the initial drive by Caldari / amarr fleet.
also various regions will have extremely crazy markets for a while |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:24:00 -
[58] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Is there any benefit for fighting in a heavily upgraded system as opposed to a lightly upgraded system? better rewards for trying to take a Dominated system as opposed to newly conquered one? or are all payouts the same? The upgrades on SiSi are subsequential market benefits until the defenders fillit it up, the last milestone being a buffer. I'm assuming this is a buffer that has to have its LP taken through plexes to make the system contested.
Kusum Fawn wrote:~ i can forsee there being one or two heavily defended systems that everyone uses to cash their LP in using alt couriers(for tags), while all the fighting goes on in contested systems, There are some hi sec militia bases. That's the preferred spot for buying faction ships.
Kusum Fawn wrote:How exactly are Datacores being introduced into FW? through LP stores? through FW only research agents? will they still require skills to use? On Sisi, you buy them five at a time. Per unit cost is 200k isk and 200 LP. Capturing more of the warzone will make them cheaper if I read the dev blog correctly.
Kusum Fawn wrote:Who is dropping the ihub? how/when is that dropped? Does all the LP have to be drained out of it first before it can be killed? The I-Hub is like the bunker is now and goes nowhere when captured. I'm not sure if the defenders can add LP while the system is contested to add a buffer. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:27:00 -
[59] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?
-Liang I don't think player behavior will go that way. I for one would rather join the side that is loosing the war (unless it's amarr... never joining them) because you know there will be plenty of targets and joining the side that is already winning isn't much of an accomplishment. Some people would rather turn the tide of the war than mooch off the side that's winning, besides, you can always have an alt join the other team. In terms of absolute fighters, the winning side's numbers will probably tend to inflate more quickly... but I don't think victory will be stable as those who want to fight defect for the loosing side. Would you join the side whose enemies could blob at will when they want to lock you out of your home or the ones doing the blobbing for lulz. The latter seems more fun from a gaming perspective even before the economic benefit. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
943
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:28:00 -
[60] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?
-Liang All of the people looking for cheap rewards will join the winning faction, which can be good for the losing one if they want to gain heaps of LP from killing clueless people looking for easy money. Plus, it is very hard to swap factions due to the massive standings penalties you take from running the complexes or missions, so it provides reasons for people to stick with their side and drive it forward. The 4x multiplier seems exaggerated, but it sounds like it would only occur when one side literally owns all FW space and has it all upgraded. I'm expecting more of a 1.5x multiplier maximum with the regular sovereignty swings. If there's one thing I've learned about Eve, it's that people take things to the max. The 4x modifier will be hit almost immediately. How long did it take FW to be "won" the first time? Not long at all -Liang If the Minmatar militia "wins" and captures most Amarr systems, a few things will happen:
- The bottom drops out of the Minmatar faction stuff market
- Amarr faction ships become far more expensive
- Amarr militia old guard will continue attacking FW space and easily taking complexes (because there are so many systems with so many complexes), being able to keep their own wallets up by selling the more expensive items less often.
- Militia false weather friends will get bored and go do something else when Firetails sell for 2 mil apiece.
- Possible Amarr resurgence.
Or I could be completely wrong and something else would happen. This is a very large list of changes with very complex consequences, and I'm not sure that we can simply predict what will happen. We will just have to wait and see, and have fun in the meantime. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
263
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:30:00 -
[61] - Quote
sovereignty based factionwarcusrions!
i dont want to live on this feature anymore.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
ogletorp
Surrender Dorothy Bipolar Stability
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:33:00 -
[62] - Quote
The changes in datacores will only make invention a less viable profession. As it is an inventor can't compete with t2 original blueprints. Leave datacores alone they are not that great of a passive income and profit margin on invention isn't that great considering that it is chance based. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1509
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:35:00 -
[63] - Quote
I'm missing something.
What about the LP gain for podding an Amarrian that had a, example, high grade slave set ?
Don't tell me there's no reward for podding people ?? o_O Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
384
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:35:00 -
[64] - Quote
Some concerns with the new system:
Many mods are shared between all factions' FW LP stores. Let's say Gallente win while Amarr and Minmatar are on even ground - the market value of any shared module will be determined by the Gallente militia, and they will cease to be a viable option for LP purchases. Only unique FW LP store options would be viable purchases, like faction ships.
More importantly, you're likely to see a snowballing effect when one side starts winning. If one side starts gaining the advantage, then FW is going to be easymode LP farming all day e'ery day with dirt-cheap faction mod prices and bonuses to LP gain, whereas the loser's side will be virtually worthless from an ISK perspective. You think this will just make the opposing faction fight harder, but people aren't locked into their militias. They will just leave or switch sides. New people wanting to get into the militia will join whichever side is winning for the financial benefits.
I predict that if this change sees TQ as is, the Caldari militia (and perhaps the Amarr militia) will just quit. If not immediately, their numbers will dwindle more and more, and more and more people will join Minmatar/gallente to reap the rewards and FW will become dead except as a means of ISK grinding.
You need to create some mechanism that encourages people to join and stay on the losing side. The price crash of faction ships will somewhat compensate for the LP drain (if Caldari loses then hookbills are going to be so goddamn expensive...), but a significant portion of the FW LP store is shared so I'm not sure that'll compensate enough.
Maybe I'm being paranoid... |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2324
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:41:00 -
[65] - Quote
Mike deVoid wrote: I think this rewards the guys fighting from zero the most - and who deserve it! On the other hand, moving from 80% to 100% of systems should give you the smallest reward since you are already steamrolling the opposition.
In my experience, the market *could* take care of a lot of this issue. We've already seen that the factions with the easiest level 4 missions had flooded the market with their LP store rewards, which were worth less than the other factional items.
As one faction stays dominant in a warzone and continues to accumulate LP, the prices for those items will go down and down on the market, devaluing the LP. The losing end, however, will have the more sought after LP store items, which while more expensive in the LP store could be worth even more by the time they reach the market.
The market will play a huge factor in FW activity from this point on, but in what fashion remains to be seen. Its just not something that's testable in a CCP office of on Singularity. Thankfully CCP has committed to tracking this and adjusting this as needed throughout the coming year and into the winter expansion, which will have even more FW goodies.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Kelidri
Omicron Persei 8
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:43:00 -
[66] - Quote
Question about datacores... So will players outside of factional warfare no longer be able to pursue R&D for datacores or will they just be competing with the factional warfare players to sell their datacores? |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1610
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:47:00 -
[67] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:If the Minmatar militia "wins" and captures most Amarr systems, a few things will happen:
- The bottom drops out of the Minmatar faction stuff market
- Amarr faction ships become far more expensive
- Amarr militia old guard will continue attacking FW space and easily taking complexes (because there are so many systems with so many complexes), being able to keep their own wallets up by selling the more expensive items less often.
- Militia false weather friends will get bored and go do something else when Firetails sell for 2 mil apiece.
- Possible Amarr resurgence.
Or I could be completely wrong and something else would happen. This is a very large list of changes with very complex consequences, and I'm not sure that we can simply predict what will happen. We will just have to wait and see, and have fun in the meantime.
That seems pretty pie in the sky deluded to me, especially given historic behavior when FW was first released. As long as there's a strong market for the rest of the Minmatar faction's stuff, the price of Firetails will not and cannot bottom out. Basically: the Minnie FW would have to literally supply every bit of LP related goods for the entire game for that to happen.
I still see no conflict driver.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Shar Tegral
165
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:49:00 -
[68] - Quote
Don't know if it has been said already: Each faction should have access to Mechanical Engineering. |
Ahazu Sagam
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:52:00 -
[69] - Quote
Will i still be able to dock in enemy high sec, like it is on SISI right now. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1610
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:52:00 -
[70] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Mike deVoid wrote: I think this rewards the guys fighting from zero the most - and who deserve it! On the other hand, moving from 80% to 100% of systems should give you the smallest reward since you are already steamrolling the opposition. In my experience, the market *could* take care of a lot of this issue. We've already seen that the factions with the easiest level 4 missions had flooded the market with their LP store rewards, which were worth less than the other factional items. As one faction stays dominant in a warzone and continues to accumulate LP, the prices for those items will go down and down on the market, devaluing the LP. The losing end, however, will have the more sought after LP store items, which while more expensive in the LP store could be worth even more by the time they reach the market. The market will play a huge factor in FW activity from this point on, but in what fashion remains to be seen. Its just not something that's testable in a CCP office of on Singularity. Thankfully CCP has committed to tracking this and adjusting this as needed throughout the coming year and into the winter expansion, which will have even more FW goodies.
So the thing about that is that running L4s is not conflict driven. You don't have to generally worry about someone running missions for an opposing faction coming in to gank you or otherwise hinder your mission running. I don't think that's a legitimate comparison.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
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Tressin Khiyne
The Tuskers
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:54:00 -
[71] - Quote
Will there be a skill reimbursement for R&D skills? It seems that the weight of the change lends itself to giving players a chance to rethink their choice in training those skills. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
82
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:56:00 -
[72] - Quote
And when do you propose to actually balance FW and will you reset everything at that time as well?
Fun facts: - Amarr has 20 (handful of deadends with nothing in them) systems vs. ~35 on Shakorite side. - Amarr FW space is a big-ass donut, takes just a few minutes to reach any system. Shakorite side has numerous bottlenecks and it takes 15-20 minutes to reach the deepest systems (from Amarr space). - Shakorites can cap ALL size plexes with a single frigate, Amarr needs gangs of increasing sizes (as intended) unless speed tanking *spit*.
Combined with the insanely farm-able LP for plexes you end up with a massive increase in plexing activity on the Shakorite side, I fully expect a complete Amarr collapse (ie. all systems under Shakors boot-heel) within 4-5 weeks simply due to the fact that it is utterly impossible to 'compete' without having 4-5 times the number of pilots to make up for the difference in ease-of-plexing.
PS: Thank you for introducing the PLEX system all those years ago, if I had paid you anything but my time since then I would probably do unspeakable things to my computer now out of hate/frustration for being a fool and being backstabbed.
'Nuff said. Have a ton of ships to move to border systems, so gotta run. |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
385
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:58:00 -
[73] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:If the Minmatar militia "wins" and captures most Amarr systems, a few things will happen:
- The bottom drops out of the Minmatar faction stuff market
- Amarr faction ships become far more expensive
- Amarr militia old guard will continue attacking FW space and easily taking complexes (because there are so many systems with so many complexes), being able to keep their own wallets up by selling the more expensive items less often.
- Militia false weather friends will get bored and go do something else when Firetails sell for 2 mil apiece.
- Possible Amarr resurgence.
Or I could be completely wrong and something else would happen. This is a very large list of changes with very complex consequences, and I'm not sure that we can simply predict what will happen. We will just have to wait and see, and have fun in the meantime. That seems pretty pie in the sky deluded to me, especially given historic behavior when FW was first released. As long as there's a strong market for the rest of the Minmatar faction's stuff, the price of Firetails will not and cannot bottom out. Basically: the Minnie FW would have to literally supply every bit of LP related goods for the entire game for that to happen. I still see no conflict driver. -Liang
This. The key point here is that each militia LP store has a ton of generic items shared across many LP stores. When one faction gets a significant advantage, the ease of getting LP and the decreased prices will make even non-FW-exclusive items like hardwirings viable to get. When this happens, the price of FW-exclusive stuff will stop dropping, meaning there's a hard floor (and not a very low floor) to where faction-exclusive mods can get.
A winning faction's LP store will be easymode infinite ISK unless such a huge proportion of the EVE population joins that faction that LP value as a whole tanks.
At this point, the only viable items in the opposite faction's LP stores will be faction ships and other unique stuff...Which means fewer people are needed to drop the price...which means that in addition to it being harder to get LPs, the market for losing-faction LP goods will crash way, way faster. Until the losing side started to get back on equal ground with the winning side, their LP store would not support that many people...
But until they get that many people, they cannot get back on equal ground. It's a catch-22. |
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:00:00 -
[74] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
I still see no conflict driver.
-Liang
I'm assuming they believe that for example Caldari ships getting more expensive will drive people that fly them to take part on the Caldari side to recitify that, it's an experiment maybe it will work and maybe it won't.
Well all said and done though the real driver ends up being wanting to fight for faction 'x' for ***** and giggles or being all roleplay about it same as any other part of the game.
|
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
943
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:00:00 -
[75] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:- Shakorites can cap ALL size plexes with a single frigate, Amarr needs gangs of increasing sizes (as intended) unless speed tanking *spit*. Exactly what frigate do you have in mind that can deal with neuts and tracking disruption? Only thing that comes to mind are bombers, and they do not deal well with frigate spawns at all. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
926
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:00:00 -
[76] - Quote
Shar Tegral wrote:Don't know if it has been said already: Each faction should have access to Mechanical Engineering.
We-¦re definitely keeping an eye on this development. As mentioned, this team will continue looking at FW after Inferno with the priority being 1: make changes to what we just shipped (potentially to ME datacores) and then 2: improving FW even more with new changes.
If something doesn-¦t end up the way we like it, they-¦ll change it. Once it-¦s in a place where everything is how we want it to be, they-¦ll move on and do more new FW features.
Winter is going to be pretty sweet. |
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Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:01:00 -
[77] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:If the Minmatar militia "wins" and captures most Amarr systems, a few things will happen:
- The bottom drops out of the Minmatar faction stuff market
- Amarr faction ships become far more expensive
- Amarr militia old guard will continue attacking FW space and easily taking complexes (because there are so many systems with so many complexes), being able to keep their own wallets up by selling the more expensive items less often.
- Militia false weather friends will get bored and go do something else when Firetails sell for 2 mil apiece.
- Possible Amarr resurgence.
Or I could be completely wrong and something else would happen. This is a very large list of changes with very complex consequences, and I'm not sure that we can simply predict what will happen. We will just have to wait and see, and have fun in the meantime. That seems pretty pie in the sky deluded to me, especially given historic behavior when FW was first released. As long as there's a strong market for the rest of the Minmatar faction's stuff, the price of Firetails will not and cannot bottom out. Basically: the Minnie FW would have to literally supply every bit of LP related goods for the entire game for that to happen. I still see no conflict driver. -Liang
Also, The LP goods that require Tags will still be relatively expensive as Fw complex farming will be just as strong, Gyrostabs and tracking enhancers still work on other non fw ships, and the nullsec demand for those will always be strong. take a look at what happened with Imperial navy ENAM's, that mods utility for everything and their same base attributes as Fed navy enams dropped their price a bit, but they continued to sell well. while Fed navy enams got priced out of market because of lack of adequate tag supply (everyone bought other mods that needed the same tags for more profit)
another example of this, is at the same time Caldari FW was "winning" the prices of CN Invuls barely moved, because the demand for such mods was in so high.
While many mods are similar across several LP stores, each store has a few specific mods that will always sell relatively well because they are not shared. Firetails may drop in price, even bottom out , but the other modules that are not only LP based will become more common and maintain a good price. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
3390
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:02:00 -
[78] - Quote
Neat!
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Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
106
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:03:00 -
[79] - Quote
OMG, this Datacore stuff will become a chaos!!!! I'm running to Hi-sec to withdrown all my RP.... |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
82
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:04:00 -
[80] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:- Shakorites can cap ALL size plexes with a single frigate, Amarr needs gangs of increasing sizes (as intended) unless speed tanking *spit*. Exactly what frigate do you have in mind that can deal with neuts and tracking disruption? Only thing that comes to mind are bombers, and they do not deal well with frigate spawns at all. For one (cheapest, so often used) AB Rifter can tracking-/speedtank all plexes .. have seen them tracking-/speedtank MINORS with full spawns for Goddess sake.
NPC/Faction balance are borked and SHOULD have been addressed ages ago and certainly well before any of this crap. |
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Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
33
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:04:00 -
[81] - Quote
0.0 lite. I'm so glad we can have sov warfare in low sec now.
/s
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Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions VP Consortium
621
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:05:00 -
[82] - Quote
Congratulations.
You've made me give a ****.
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Haifisch Zahne
HZ Corp
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:05:00 -
[83] - Quote
It seems to me a piece of the puzzle that is missing is how Rank fits in: rank should narrow what may be purchased in the LP store. One cannot simply switch sides, just to cash in when another side is winning. It would also be the basis of a diminishing returns since higher ranks would be more difficult to achieve.
How do you rise in Ranks? Meet Mr. Killboard. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
706
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:06:00 -
[84] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?
-Liang you are missing the fact that there are people out there who want to have fun rather than maximizing profit. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
386
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:07:00 -
[85] - Quote
The only good way to fix this and maintain a reason to fight would be to completely redo FW LP stores.
Each FW LP store should only carry unique items that you cannot get (cheaply) anywhere else. The store should consist of unique items, or uniquely-cheap items. This would solve the problem and if one side started getting creamed, their LP values would shoot through the roof.
Quote:you are missing the fact that there are people out there who want to have fun rather than maximizing profit.
If I could have fun and get a bunch of ISK, or have fun and get none, I'm going to choose the former. Choosing the winning militia isn't necessarily any less fun. |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
926
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:08:00 -
[86] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:Congratulations. You've made me give a ****.
<3 |
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Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:08:00 -
[87] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:It seems to me a piece of the puzzle that is missing is how Rank fits in: rank should narrow what may be purchased in the LP store. One cannot simply switch sides, just to cash in when another side is winning. It would also be the basis of a diminishing returns since higher ranks would be more difficult to achieve.
Your rank in a militia corp doesn't change when you leave, it just doesn't get displayed.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:09:00 -
[88] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:The only good way to fix this and maintain a reason to fight would be to completely redo FW LP stores. Each FW LP store should only carry unique items that you cannot get (cheaply) anywhere else. The store should consist of unique items, or uniquely-cheap items. This would solve the problem and if one side started getting creamed, their LP values would shoot through the roof. Quote:you are missing the fact that there are people out there who want to have fun rather than maximizing profit.
If I could have fun and get a bunch of ISK, or have fun and get none, I'm going to choose the former. Choosing the winning militia isn't necessarily any less fun.
problem is balancing these items to the rest of the game, an issue CCP is not well know for being able to deal with.
also several ways of farming have been opened up by this new FW plan. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
706
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:10:00 -
[89] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:It seems to me a piece of the puzzle that is missing is how Rank fits in: rank should narrow what may be purchased in the LP store. One cannot simply switch sides, just to cash in when another side is winning. It would also be the basis of a diminishing returns since higher ranks would be more difficult to achieve.
How do you rise in Ranks? Meet Mr. Killboard. i am -9.5 with minmatar, switching sides isn't simple a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
33
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:10:00 -
[90] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Bloodpetal wrote:Congratulations. You've made me give a ****. <3
http://i.imgur.com/jNoGA.jpg |
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Zu Tsang
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:10:00 -
[91] - Quote
If you lose a system, in which you have assets, is there any possible way to get these assets back beside re-capturing the whole system ? i.e. contract them to an alt etc... Or are they destroyed ? |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
944
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:10:00 -
[92] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:NPC/Faction balance are borked and SHOULD have been addressed ages ago and certainly well before any of this crap. Yeah, along with redoing all missions to match recent mechanics (90% webs = wtf), and a whole bunch of other stuff. However it's not :awesome fun: coding, and the base code base is likely sealed in a black box that nobody wants to touch, so... yeah. Not gonna happen, unfortunately.
Also I would really really like to see a Rifter solo a major or a standard site sometime. It would be eye-opening. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
386
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:10:00 -
[93] - Quote
Quote:i am -9.5 with minmatar, switching sides isn't simple
But for someone who is just switching into faction warfare, who hasn't tanked their standings yet with either side, it is.
Quote:Yeah, along with redoing all missions to match recent mechanics (90% webs = wtf), and a whole bunch of other stuff. However it's not :awesome fun: coding, and the base code base is likely sealed in a black box that nobody wants to touch, so... yeah. Not gonna happen, unfortunately.
Also I would really really like to see a Rifter solo a major or a standard site sometime. It would be eye-opening.
CCP has had a good track record in the past few months with fixing broken things. Do you think redoing all Exploration sites and missions to allow MWDs was :awesome coding:? How about fixing the UI or redoing the inventory system? Nerfing drone poop and system truesec?
If they do all that, then what makes you think they wouldn't fix this? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1828
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:11:00 -
[94] - Quote
Rhaile Vhindiscar wrote:"You want to do research, fine? The best way is to go kill people." I can see how that would play out to a potential scientist. So, are you really telling industrialist to join fw or just creating an interdependence without any real justification?
Overhaul datacore mining some other way. Get datacores out of FW. It doesn't make sense fluff wise or mechanic wise. You just got done telling people you're not going to let them shoot npcs to build things (drone nerf)...then you tell them you are going to make them shoot npcs to build things (fw overhaul). All you did was change the position in the production chain.
If you are shooting NPC's in FW to build things, you won't be getting anywhere fast. Rather you will be shooting PEOPLE to build things.
Data Cores already come from NPC corporations as rewards, why not from factions as well... When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
386
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:14:00 -
[95] - Quote
Actually, something I didn't take into account was the addition of datacores to FW LP stores. This means that a larger percentage of the FW LP store is faction-exclusive, which will help the market-balancing element to this.
I still think the FW store will need an overhaul but not quite as badly as I had thought. |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
504
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:14:00 -
[96] - Quote
Many f*cks will be given. www.noirmercs.com Now Recruiting CSM7, CSM 4 |
Haifisch Zahne
HZ Corp
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:15:00 -
[97] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote: Your rank in a militia corp doesn't change when you leave, it just doesn't get displayed.
We call switching factions a traitor in my book. I would *imagine* you lose all rank in your old faction. No? |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke
231
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:18:00 -
[98] - Quote
the whole datacore thing still remains a stupid thing
all the other changes however, they actually make sense in my head, thats a big change from how they have been before |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
106
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:20:00 -
[99] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Rhaile Vhindiscar wrote:"You want to do research, fine? The best way is to go kill people." I can see how that would play out to a potential scientist. So, are you really telling industrialist to join fw or just creating an interdependence without any real justification?
Overhaul datacore mining some other way. Get datacores out of FW. It doesn't make sense fluff wise or mechanic wise. You just got done telling people you're not going to let them shoot npcs to build things (drone nerf)...then you tell them you are going to make them shoot npcs to build things (fw overhaul). All you did was change the position in the production chain.
If you are shooting NPC's in FW to build things, you won't be getting anywhere fast. Rather you will be shooting PEOPLE to build things. Data Cores already come from NPC corporations as rewards, why not from factions as well...
"as well"? ... it sounds like they will remove the passive gain of them in no time!! ...
This means that as some faction start to lose and produce less datacores, it's price will go up and more people will join it to get datacores......
But anyway, the Tech 2 prices, that was "skyrocketing" becouse of the T1 prices increase, will now be "Skymicrowarpdriving!"...
This is sad... the more expensive a ship is, the biger is the cost to PVP....
At last we can still find datacores in Radar sites... |
Zarnak Wulf
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
335
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:20:00 -
[100] - Quote
Getting LP for kills and flipping systems is a great conflict motivator in my book. |
|
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
706
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:21:00 -
[101] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:The only good way to fix this and maintain a reason to fight would be to completely redo FW LP stores. Each FW LP store should only carry unique items that you cannot get (cheaply) anywhere else. The store should consist of unique items, or uniquely-cheap items. This would solve the problem and if one side started getting creamed, their LP values would shoot through the roof. Quote:you are missing the fact that there are people out there who want to have fun rather than maximizing profit.
If I could have fun and get a bunch of ISK, or have fun and get none, I'm going to choose the former. Choosing the winning militia isn't necessarily any less fun. of course. but not everyone thinks like you do. Some see being in the winning team as boring. Those who want pvp won't use the imbalanced side since they want targets. It'tll balance itself. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
33
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:26:00 -
[102] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:Kahega Amielden wrote:The only good way to fix this and maintain a reason to fight would be to completely redo FW LP stores. Each FW LP store should only carry unique items that you cannot get (cheaply) anywhere else. The store should consist of unique items, or uniquely-cheap items. This would solve the problem and if one side started getting creamed, their LP values would shoot through the roof. Quote:you are missing the fact that there are people out there who want to have fun rather than maximizing profit.
If I could have fun and get a bunch of ISK, or have fun and get none, I'm going to choose the former. Choosing the winning militia isn't necessarily any less fun. of course. but not everyone thinks like you do. Some see being in the winning team as boring. Those who want pvp won't use the imbalanced side since they want targets. It'tll balance itself.
Those who want pvp will drop milita so they can doc anywhere and don't have to deal with some stupid sov mechanic.
edit- and switching sides isn't particularly easy due to the standings mechanic |
FeralShadow
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
110
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:28:00 -
[103] - Quote
Well I think a lot of people don't realize that people like me exist, who just loves to shoot lots of crap. Joining the losing side to have TONS of targets is a benefit in and of itself. Joining FW is like being a pirate, without having to deal with the stupid gate turrets "I do believe in karma. -áThat means that whenever I do something sh**y to others, they somehow deserved it." |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions VP Consortium
621
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:30:00 -
[104] - Quote
Can you please elaborate on the datacore changes?
Is RP/day going down or up?
Are we getting less Datacores per day equivalent?
How do the militia pull out datacores?
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
388
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:32:00 -
[105] - Quote
Quote:of course. but not everyone thinks like you do. Some see being in the winning team as boring. Those who want pvp won't use the imbalanced side since they want targets. It'tll balance itself.
Then I ask you why the Caldari militia is still getting shafted, even though there aren't any mechanics right now to really encourage joining them?
Do you think that will get -better- when people are directly given incentive to join Gallente? |
Destru Kaneda
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
48
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:34:00 -
[106] - Quote
Conflict driver? Local chat. http://minmatar.eve-kill.net/ http://binaerpilot.no/ GMU d-(---)pu s+++:-- a-- C++++$ U>+++ P+ L+ E---- W+++$ w PS+++ PE-- Y++ PGP-- t+ tv-- b+ D++ G e- h r++ y+* |
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
33
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:35:00 -
[107] - Quote
Salicaz wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Thank you though, for keeping a positive attitude and for being willing to try something before judging it. Players like you should have a lot of fun in the days ahead, I wish everyone else felt the same.
CCP Guy> Hey guys, remember that broken feature we released years back called Faction Warfare? [Room erupts with howling laughter]. CCP Guy > [Wipes tear from eye after laughing so hard]. Lol! Iknorite! Well apparently some people still do it, no really they do! CCP Prat from meeting > Why haven't they left for null sec, our beloved end game vision? CCP Guy > I don't know, apparently they lived begrudgingly with the half arsed broken mess and.... CCP Prat from meeting > But why haven't they left for null sec, our beloved end game vision? CCP Guy > shrugs* CCP Prat from meeting > **** em, bring null sec to them then, lock them out of station. I can't believe they still do it lol! We even stopped adding news to the militia office window in Feb 2010. Let them have a helping prod into the direction that be null! [rapturous applaud from the rest of the meeting] CCP Guy > They're bound to complain, what should we say? CCP Prat from meeting > Nothing, just let that lovely Hans fellow from that gathering we invited, er, what are they called? CCP Guy > CSM? CCP Prat from meeting > Yeah them, get him to bang on about how good it really is for them.
|
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions VP Consortium
621
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:35:00 -
[108] - Quote
Bienator II wrote: of course. but not everyone thinks like you do. Some see being in the winning team as boring. Those who want pvp won't use the imbalanced side since they want targets. It'tll balance itself.
That in itself will not make a militia successful.
The real issue actually becomes if one militia is dominating so powerfully and cleans up a whole system, they can't make any more LP.
Ships to shoot will dry up, plexes to attack will dry up, ihubs to attack will be gone, etc.
So, success will have its own failures. The losing side may actually be able to provide cheaper datacores and LP through guerilla style tactics (hitting plexes on off hours, and so on) despite losing.
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
732
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:41:00 -
[109] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:Gogela wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?
-Liang I don't think player behavior will go that way. I for one would rather join the side that is loosing the war (unless it's amarr... never joining them) because you know there will be plenty of targets and joining the side that is already winning isn't much of an accomplishment. Some people would rather turn the tide of the war than mooch off the side that's winning, besides, you can always have an alt join the other team. In terms of absolute fighters, the winning side's numbers will probably tend to inflate more quickly... but I don't think victory will be stable as those who want to fight defect for the loosing side. Would you join the side whose enemies could blob at will when they want to lock you out of your home or the ones doing the blobbing for lulz. The latter seems more fun from a gaming perspective even before the economic benefit. I've been playing for a while. ISK is less relevant to me. The concept of "home" is totally irrelevant. If I need more spaceships I buy them. You can't buy targets though. If you ever have a problem with getting blobbed in station just make a bookmark 300-whatever km directly from undock on every station and you can instawarp on undock before anyone can lock you. Those of us with -10 that still go to Jita do that in shuttles... works with anything though. Obviously the blob would anihalate me solo so I'm not taking it in, but in every blob there's a few ships trying to catch up and a few ships leaving the fleet. Those would be my bread and butter... we will see though I'm sure game for doing a little FW at launch.
|
Zakurai
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:42:00 -
[110] - Quote
All the faction war stuff is good, and all, I'd join it if RvB isn't like a vastly cheaper consequence free version of fw. I say the biggest problem with people joining faction war is the massive standing loss that they will receive with the opposing faction. While it completely makes sense to do so, it kills most of my ambition to join as I might join a corp later on in my eve career that lives in the area of Empire that you can't be in for having low standings.
The data cores will be a disaster for all non FW people with R&D agents. I myself have invested a lot of time and money to become a self sufficient T2 producer on a single account (trained all 3 toons for R&D, no alt accounts). All this time I invested was for being able to cash in on the datacores I researched by using them directly to make stuff so i can fund pvp without ratting or grinding missions. You need to look at the whole chain of t2 production, the datacore is the passive phase of process. Making these changes will lead to the exact same situation we had with rigs being too expensive to use a couple years ago. The major difference is that EVERYBODY uses t2 right now, everything from the ships to t2 drones will go up in price to meet demand, and then nobody will be able to fly anything remotely cheap, so they will be reluctant to loose it.
Unless your ultimate goal is to have people just buy plexes to cash in to fund their PVP, leave the RP alone. |
|
Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:42:00 -
[111] - Quote
Changes and consequences are finally coming to FW. Excellent. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:45:00 -
[112] - Quote
Zakurai wrote: Unless your ultimate goal is to have people just buy plexes to cash in to fund their PVP, leave the RP alone.
um... you haven't been watching the Next store issues and a good number of other things? |
Celebris Nexterra
Lowsec Static
45
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:45:00 -
[113] - Quote
T'san Manaan wrote:Changes look good so far can't wait to see it go live. Just some thoughts I would like to see implemented in the future. 1. Missions go to the nearest "Contested" system to keep the mission farmers in the combat zone. 2. Benefits to P.I. and industry (I.E. faster manufacturing) for upgrading systems 3. captured stations use current Sov holder Agents. 4. station lockouts to include anyone with a negative faction standing or outlaw status. Other than that I like everything I see so far especially the no docking for your enemies
I want to like this post, but I in no way support making life as a pirate even harder. I agree with station lockouts including those with negative faction status so that it (negative facstat) matters outside of highsec/FW. Also, there's no real reason to include outlaws anyway. |
Helena Russell Makanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:47:00 -
[114] - Quote
Nanshara wrote:Clodim wrote:So basically nothing changed with CCP, you have an idea, and you will enforce it no matter what players think. One might think you've learned from last year... Do you even read the Dev Blogs - This is all subject to change. reading the thread your the first negative comment so guess you better HTFU
Nice first post... CCP alt much? |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
732
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:48:00 -
[115] - Quote
Celebris Nexterra wrote:T'san Manaan wrote:Changes look good so far can't wait to see it go live. Just some thoughts I would like to see implemented in the future. 1. Missions go to the nearest "Contested" system to keep the mission farmers in the combat zone. 2. Benefits to P.I. and industry (I.E. faster manufacturing) for upgrading systems 3. captured stations use current Sov holder Agents. 4. station lockouts to include anyone with a negative faction standing or outlaw status. Other than that I like everything I see so far especially the no docking for your enemies I want to like this post, but I in no way support making life as a pirate even harder. I agree with station lockouts including those with negative faction status so that it (negative facstat) matters outside of highsec/FW. Also, there's no real reason to include outlaws anyway. It wouldn't matter to pirates b/c w/ the new crimewatch outlaws can buy officer and commander tags and up their standings.
|
Zakurai
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:49:00 -
[116] - Quote
I just mean that it would be far easier to spend $15 to buy a plex to cash in on 400mill isk (or whatever it goes for now) to fuel your pvp than try to find sustainable income. All of that Nex store stuff is just a way to get isk out of the economy to manage inflation. |
Orisa Medeem
Hedion University Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:53:00 -
[117] - Quote
Two comments about the changes:
Quote:[Given LP] = ([Market value of target ship] - [Max. Insurance market value] + [Fitted mods, rigs and subsystem market value] + [Transported items market value]) / 10000
Please take dropped items into consideration in that formula. They should either pay half compared to the destroyed ones, or nothing at all. This is important to prevent exploiting it.
Quote:As such, with Inferno, all stations within a low-security Factional Warfare system will now deny docking to any factional enemy (neutrals will remain unaffected).
This seems to be more annoying than anything. The only thing it will accomplish is to force FW combatants to drop FW or leave their player corp for a few days so that they can grab their assets again. And did I mention doing this will annoy a lot of people?
If the idea is to give people incentives to defend a system, then just put a fine for docking, instead of preventing it. The fine could be isk and/or LP and the value could either be fixed or some function based on how long the opposing faction is holding the system or how much upgraded is its iHub.
All in all, the changes look solid. :sand: -áover -á:awesome: |
Helena Russell Makanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:55:00 -
[118] - Quote
Tressin Khiyne wrote:Will there be a skill reimbursement for R&D skills? It seems that the weight of the change lends itself to giving players a chance to rethink their choice in training those skills.
This please at least. I mean people spent a lot of isk for books, a lot to time training skills, and a lot of time grinding for good agents to get datacores to use for invention and/or sell.
You put this in place when you took away the T2 BPO auctions, so it's not like a cheat or exploit.
You are changing that now (what in the world do datacores have to do with fleet warfare?).
The fair thing would be some sort of reimbursement, even if you can't reimburse people's time spent. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:56:00 -
[119] - Quote
Zakurai wrote:I just mean that it would be far easier to spend $15 to buy a plex to cash in on 400mill isk (or whatever it goes for now) to fuel your pvp than try to find sustainable income. All of that Nex store stuff is just a way to get isk out of the economy to manage inflation.
and to get people that wouldn't normally buy plex to buy More plex
you may be paying for your subscription now, but if you cant fund your various activities in the game with ingame made isk, you might buy plex to supplement your income,
while that doesn't change the fact that you are supplying someone else's game time, having Plex related sinks, (like the Next store) means that some of your cash is buying ingame items and not going to be used for the extension of someones account.
If Next store stuff was there solely for the purposes of Isk inflation then it would be directly purchasable for isk. however it is not. the involvment Plex means that it is more directly related to cash income then isk inflation control. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
945
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:56:00 -
[120] - Quote
Orisa Medeem wrote:Two comments about the changes: Quote:[Given LP] = ([Market value of target ship] - [Max. Insurance market value] + [Fitted mods, rigs and subsystem market value] + [Transported items market value]) / 10000 Please take dropped items into consideration in that formula. They should either pay half compared to the destroyed ones, or nothing at all. This is important to prevent exploiting it. If you're carrying 100,000,000 ISK in loot, the EV of the drop is 50 mil ISK, and the person killing you gets 10,000 LP from it. If you were trying to abuse it, you'd be hard pressed to make more than 50 mil ISK off of 10k LP. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
|
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:59:00 -
[121] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Orisa Medeem wrote:Two comments about the changes: Quote:[Given LP] = ([Market value of target ship] - [Max. Insurance market value] + [Fitted mods, rigs and subsystem market value] + [Transported items market value]) / 10000 Please take dropped items into consideration in that formula. They should either pay half compared to the destroyed ones, or nothing at all. This is important to prevent exploiting it. If you're carrying 100,000,000 ISK in loot, the EV of the drop is 50 mil ISK, and the person killing you gets 10,000 LP from it. If you were trying to abuse it, you'd be hard pressed to make more than 50 mil ISK off of 10k LP.
with the ship LP changes, it makes a lot of sense for FW players to keep abnormally high ship costs in the regions that are contested while alt shipping in ships to be put on contracts for either side to purchase. Because it is now in the best interests for both factions to keep market prices high, they will no longer compete for cheap ships for their own militas on the open market. but rather through contracts which are not counted in the LP price index for ships/fittings.
Destroying a Punisher with tech 1 fitting: gained LP = (450k ISK GÇô 312k ISK + 100k ISK + 0) / 10000 = around 24 LP (previous system would have paid 25 LP)
now fit that punisher with a market manipulated module, Republic Fleet Thermic plating est cost 100k isk, set price on Placid market 100 million isk, In heavy sov upgrades system market cost cheaper, it currently costs me (a nonFW player but with good regional faction standings) approx 1 million to place module on the market, with no buy orders or competing modules market price is now 100 million for a cheap module.
Destroying a punisher with tech 1 fitting:gained LP =(450k isk - 312k isk + 100 million isk +0)/1000 = 100,138 LP (overheat a lowslot mod for a few seconds to encourage the item being destroyed)
Punisher has 4 lowslots, add four of those modules. now make that module worth one billion, or ten billion .... |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
945
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:03:00 -
[122] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:Orisa Medeem wrote:Two comments about the changes: Quote:[Given LP] = ([Market value of target ship] - [Max. Insurance market value] + [Fitted mods, rigs and subsystem market value] + [Transported items market value]) / 10000 Please take dropped items into consideration in that formula. They should either pay half compared to the destroyed ones, or nothing at all. This is important to prevent exploiting it. If you're carrying 100,000,000 ISK in loot, the EV of the drop is 50 mil ISK, and the person killing you gets 10,000 LP from it. If you were trying to abuse it, you'd be hard pressed to make more than 50 mil ISK off of 10k LP. with the ship LP changes, it makes a lot of sense for FW players to keep abnormally high ship costs in the regions that are contested while alt shipping in ships to be put on contracts for either side to purchase. Because it is now in the best interests for both factions to keep market prices high, they will no longer compete for cheap ships for their own militas on the open market. but rather through contracts which are not counted in the LP price index for ships/fittings. Destroying a Punisher with tech 1 fitting: gained LP = (450k ISK GÇô 312k ISK + 100k ISK + 0) / 10000 = around 24 LP (previous system would have paid 25 LP) now fit that punisher with a market manipulated module, Republic Fleet Thermic plating est cost 100k isk, set price on Placid market 100 million isk, In heavy sov upgrades system market cost cheaper, it currently costs me (a nonFW player but with good regional faction standings) approx 1 million to place module on the market, with no buy orders or competing modules market price is now 100 million for a cheap module. Destroying a punisher with tech 1 fitting:gained LP =(450k isk - 312k isk + 100 million isk +0)/1000 = 100,138 LP (overheat a lowslot mod for a few seconds to encourage the item being destroyed) Punisher has 4 lowslots, add four of those modules. now make that module worth one billion, or ten billion .... I would hope that CCP is smart enough to
- Make the used prices be a global average
- Use Sell orders, not Buy orders to price them
- Make it delayed by an unspecified amount of time
- Average price changes on a smoothed running aveage curve
If they didn't, then yeah, this is going to turn out into a horrible, horrible gaming of the system. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
571
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:04:00 -
[123] - Quote
Just have one question... moving datacores to FW LP stores means that they can't be obtained through research agents as usual? EVE residents: 5% WH; 8% Lowsec; 15% Nullsec; 72% Highsec. CSM 7: 1 highsec resident out of 14.-á
CSM demographics vs EVE demographics, nothing to worry about... |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
946
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:07:00 -
[124] - Quote
General remark with regards to the doomsday predictions of many people: if CCP lives up to their word on iterating on things (and they at least look like they intend to), then they will tweak this, adding reasons to join a "losing" side if it becomes necessary.
If they don't touch FW for another 20 years, then it's going to end up screwed no matter how stellar and awesome Inferno is.
So... chill and trust in CCP to do what they said they'd do. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
132
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:08:00 -
[125] - Quote
Regarding R&D agent changes to make sure I understand: 1. The RP/day rates for datacores that currently cost 50RP staying the same, effectively halving the amount that can be obtained in a given period of time. 2. RP for other types with different multipliers will end up the same due to their multipliers being removed
If those are correct, does this mean that RP for an x3 modifier datacore can be used to purchase 3(+10k isk/core) after the change for every 2 you would be able to purchase now? Or are the amounts of already accumulated RP going to be altered to account for this? |
Zakurai
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:11:00 -
[126] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Zakurai wrote:I just mean that it would be far easier to spend $15 to buy a plex to cash in on 400mill isk (or whatever it goes for now) to fuel your pvp than try to find sustainable income. All of that Nex store stuff is just a way to get isk out of the economy to manage inflation. and to get people that wouldn't normally buy plex to buy More plex you may be paying for your subscription now, but if you cant fund your various activities in the game with ingame made isk, you might buy plex to supplement your income, while that doesn't change the fact that you are supplying someone else's game time, having Plex related sinks, (like the Next store) means that some of your cash is buying ingame items and not going to be used for the extension of someones account. If Next store stuff was there solely for the purposes of Isk inflation then it would be directly purchasable for isk. however it is not. the involvment Plex means that it is more directly related to cash income then isk inflation control.
I agree, and there will be an influx of Plex purchasers to keep funding they're current gameplay style. If all of a sudden, that tackling rifter cost you 20-30mill to fly it might not be too bad initially, but just think about all the cruiser and up costs. Since mods are universal from ship to ship, they will each get far more expensive to fly. Sides, I was a carebear a while back, trying to convince them to drop a bunch of isk to fly something that they will most likely loose is a tough sales pitch. |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:11:00 -
[127] - Quote
Do the devs have any plans to expand/change what system upgrades do? Because right now there isn't a great deal of incentive for people to invest their scarce LP in improvements, because the improvements are pretty weaksauce. Reduced clone costs aren't going to be that big a deal because the relative ease of getting your pod out in lowsec; lowsec industry and commerce is virtually non-existent (as far as I'm aware) on account of logistical issues, and a fairly paltry improvement isn't about to make anyone change their minds.
Assorted terrible ideas -Reduced repair costs in upgraded systems (militia-only) -Improved insurance payout for insurance contracts purchased in upgraded systems (milita-only) -Bonuses to production of faction-appropriate ships and modules in upgraded militia systems.
I agree with the sentiments people have already expressed on the subject of positive feedback, but I don't really have anything to add on that front other than concern. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:11:00 -
[128] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:I would hope that CCP is smart enough to
- Make the used prices be a global average
- Use Sell orders, not Buy orders to price them
- Make it delayed by an unspecified amount of time
- Average price changes on a smoothed running aveage curve
If they didn't, then yeah, this is going to turn out into a horrible, horrible gaming of the system.
so id have to put several obscene priced orders in a few regions to get the full benifit of this? im sure there are a few people in some of the nullsec areas that would happily do this with me if we consorted with alts. any module that has no real use (and there are quite a few) can be put up with minimal isk outlay.
It doesn't matter, what buy/sell order you use. Even Jita sees massive manipulation for items all the time.
|
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
732
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:12:00 -
[129] - Quote
I keep looking over the change. It gets better every time I read it. As a pirate, you get a free-for-all on WTs in lowsec so the gate gun problem is solved, you can still ransom and dishonor ransoms to mission runners (of which there will probably be a lot more), plus you get bumper ISK and LP on your kills! How awesome is that? Why wouldn't every pirate want to join FW now, is my question? Inferno gets better with every dev blog. I just wonder if my standing with the gallente is too low to join now. Maybe it won't matter depending on how the tags for sec thing works. Looking forward to it. Didn't anticipate wanting to join FW at all until today!
|
Cosmoes
Peraka
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:13:00 -
[130] - Quote
For current rp holders when you change the datacore cost to 100 for all are you going to increase/decrease current rp holders current rp?
Are ppl with 150 datacore research items going to get an extra 50% more datacores while those with 50 cost ones get their datacores halved? |
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
404
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:14:00 -
[131] - Quote
Thanks for finally working on faction war. Allot of these things have been needed for a long time. And allot of the work -including the faction war info page - is top quality.
In the end I think
1)the long time it takes to flip systems combined with
2)the no docking rule and
3)increased pve opportunities for the winning side
Will make faction war in general and the combat in particular much more similar to sov null sec.
I predict (yeah I might be wrong) the combat will be much more dependant on organizing large numbers of people together to grind through systems. We can see lots of eve players are quite happy about this and it's no surprise, as that is how many aspects of eve are "won". If they didn't like then many wouldn't be playing eve.
But I sort of liked the more casual nature of faction war and the frequent quality pvp in it. The pvp did not require large fleets and you could get lots of good fights from plexes in the shortest possible time short of arranged fights in hubs and rvb. I am glad you will consider eliminating the station lock outs. That would be a big step toward keeping faction war an option for me.
If you end up keeping faction war as this more sov null sec type game then I would ask that you consider something like Jack Dent's proposal for low sec in general:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=42987&find=unread
It's not not good as what faction war currently offers but it would offer casual players like myself who were in faction for the frequent small scale pvp something. There are a few of us who love eve and love small scale pvp but are not interested in this serious business of organizing sheep to blob and then gloat over all the isk we can now carbear.
I highly doubt the station lock out idea will be compatible with my style of play. With faction off the table I feel like my options are getting even more limitted after this expansion. Jack Dent's proposal would at least make low sec more promising for casual low sec pvpers and lessen the blow. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Andrea Griffin
278
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:17:00 -
[132] - Quote
I'm still very hesitant about the docking thing but you know what? Let's give it a try and see how it works in practice. Thank you for your hard work and finally giving FW some much-needed attention. CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:19:00 -
[133] - Quote
Mechanical Engineering Datacore, the most important datacore (and used in inventing all four racial varieties of ships) is exclusive to the faction with the easiest PvE (something you didn't address and going by your track record, never will. :soon: is pretty much CCP talk for never going to happen).
Words can't express how fvcking stupid you all must be. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:32:00 -
[134] - Quote
Patient 2428190 wrote:Mechanical Engineering Datacore, the most important datacore (and used in inventing all four racial varieties of ships) is exclusive to the faction with the easiest PvE (something you didn't address and going by your track record, never will. :soon: is pretty much CCP talk for never going to happen).
Words can't express how fvcking stupid you all must be.
Which faction is that now?
I see L4 agents of all Factions with Mech core research available. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
946
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:36:00 -
[135] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:I would hope that CCP is smart enough to
- Make the used prices be a global average
- Use Sell orders, not Buy orders to price them
- Make it delayed by an unspecified amount of time
- Average price changes on a smoothed running aveage curve
If they didn't, then yeah, this is going to turn out into a horrible, horrible gaming of the system. so id have to put several obscene priced orders in a few regions to get the full benifit of this? im sure there are a few people in some of the nullsec areas that would happily do this with me if we consorted with alts. any module that has no real use (and there are quite a few) can be put up with minimal isk outlay. It doesn't matter, what buy/sell order you use. Even Jita sees massive manipulation for items all the time. I'm not saying you're wrong.
As I was implying before, I'm hoping that CCP didn't do something dumb and exploitable. They are opening up a very nasty can of worms by basing anything on actual market values, and I think there's something terribly wrong with the "ladder" system and the enhanced killmails, as well.
In other words, they best know what they're doing, or this is going to explode in their faces. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Mike deVoid
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:37:00 -
[136] - Quote
This has probably been asked already, but are you making any changes to the NPC in plex sites, with respect to the unequal EWAR and also the fact that they still spawn even if enemies militia come in to kill you :( |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:41:00 -
[137] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote: I'm not saying you're wrong.
As I was implying before, I'm hoping that CCP didn't do something dumb and exploitable. They are opening up a very nasty can of worms by basing anything on actual market values, and I think there's something terribly wrong with the "ladder" system and the enhanced killmails, as well.
In other words, they best know what they're doing, or this is going to explode in their faces.
oh man, if we are relying on ccp to have thought this out adequately ...
May i refer your attention to the last four expansions? WIS, NeXt store, Fuel Change over,
etc...
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time. |
Metis Laxon
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:41:00 -
[138] - Quote
Wonderful list of changes, I will join in as soon as it is released! |
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
194
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:43:00 -
[139] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Patient 2428190 wrote:Mechanical Engineering Datacore, the most important datacore (and used in inventing all four racial varieties of ships) is exclusive to the faction with the easiest PvE (something you didn't address and going by your track record, never will. :soon: is pretty much CCP talk for never going to happen).
Words can't express how fvcking stupid you all must be. Which faction is that now? I see L4 agents of all Factions with Mech core research available.
Because I'm sure you feel so smart that you know what research agents are, answer this question for me. Why should the most important datacore, used in all 4 races of ships, be specific to one LP store? |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
1933
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:46:00 -
[140] - Quote
Good changes, but Mech Eng cores really should be available from all factions. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
|
FellRaven
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:50:00 -
[141] - Quote
Not happy about the proposed datacore changes. I've spent a lot of time raising alt characters on my account to collect datacores. This doesn't just mean training the skills for research it also means training combat skills to mission so they can access level 4 agents. That is an investment of 3-4mil SP per character which you want to take away at a whim.
In contrast what have you done about the passive income from T2 BPOs that were given away in the lottery that RP could previously have been invested in? Nothing, invention is not a viable trade as you can not compete with T2 BPOs.
You don't seem to appreciate that this game needs passive income streams because those of us that PvP don't want to spend our time ratting or missioning instead. If you prevent people from making passive ISK and force them into PVE you will over time loose a lot of players.
I would suggest that you reconsider these changes very seriously. |
Neo Gabriel
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:50:00 -
[142] - Quote
What is it with this ridiculous cheering? you think you did a good job with this "interaction"? Go "improve" something else... Now i know how it feels to be CCPEED on. I swear soundwave yterbium and whoever else is in charge of this turd... i thought you learned that throwing **** at the wall and implementing what sticks didn't work. This patch will come back to bite you in the ass.
ALRIGHT IT IS DONE FULL ****** MODE ENGAGED
ITS SO GREAT TO KNOW THAT CCP REYARDED DEVS WITH NO CLUE ABOUT SOMETHING DECIDE YET AGAIN TO CCPEE ON ANOTHER GAME NICHE WITHOUT ANY THOUGHT INTO THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS
STATION LOCKOUT MEANS THAT -10 PILOTS THAT LOSE THEIR STATIONS WILL HAVE TO QUIT FW OR MOVE 20 JUMPS TO THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE
STILL NO FIX TO THE IMBALANCE OF EWAR AND NPCS IN GENERAL
YOU KNOW WHAT, I AM NOT GOING TO EXPLAIN ALL AND WHY THIS IS GOING TO BE THE FINAL NAIL ON THE FW COFFIN.
WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN 3 MONTHS IS THERE WILL ONLY BE 2 MILITIAS LEFT AND THE LOSING SIDES WILL NEVER RECOVER
>>>WHY HOW COULD THEY, AT THEIR WORST THIER LP REWARDS WILL COST 4X AS MUCH, THEY CANT DOCK ANYWHERE IN LOWSEC, THEY CANT RETREIVE THEIR SHIPS/ITEMS/REPAIR/RELOAD... WHO IN THEIR RIGHT FUQUING MIND WOULD STAY ANCHORED BY SUCH RESTRICTIONS???????????
>>>SPECIALLY WHEN A MUCH SIMPLER SOLUTION IS AVAILABLE: ---QUIT FW--- AND BEHOLD, YOU ARE FREE AGAIN!
LONG LIVE LOWSEC, LONG LIVE THE FEDERATION (as long as until my home stations are not locked out) LONG LIVE -10,
HERE COMES INFERO, HERALDING A NEW AGE OF LOWSEC PIRACY
|
Cosmoes
Peraka
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:51:00 -
[143] - Quote
OK I've had an idea for FW that was pretty similar to this for like 2 years but I'll explain the main differences
1. LP decrease was partially tied to individual systems. Idea is less mob mentality (keep killing amarr and eventually something good will happen) and rather I want to take system x so I can buy a bunch of cheap frigs and sell them in Jita. Also provide some more tactical environments to FW similar to moons do to 0.0
Lets use buying faction frigs as an example - each system decreases LP cost a small amount (1%) - Specific systems specialize in certain areas decrease it by a large amount (frig production system = 25%) - Many systems have effect multiple items (speed based system = 5%) - Possibly constellation bonuses added to it.
System examples frig central (25% reduction to frigs, 5% reduction to small weapons, 1% reduction to all)
speed system(25% reduction to mwd/ab, 5% reduction to frigs, 1% reduction to all)
You'd want a few other systems/constellations to get the max reduction on a single item.
2. The more systems you control the less LP you get for all activities.
Currently the reverse of what is planned, this is to give the war a bit of an eb and flow rather than a steamroll. When one side is winning the other side offers better rewards in LP (though you won't want to cash in straight away).
As for story behind this. When a massive empire has to support a war in 5 systems as apposed to 50 they can give more rewards per system. FW space only makes up a fraction of the empires total space so we shouldn't see their complete collapse when those systems are taken. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
946
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:52:00 -
[144] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote: I'm not saying you're wrong.
As I was implying before, I'm hoping that CCP didn't do something dumb and exploitable. They are opening up a very nasty can of worms by basing anything on actual market values, and I think there's something terribly wrong with the "ladder" system and the enhanced killmails, as well.
In other words, they best know what they're doing, or this is going to explode in their faces.
oh man, if we are relying on ccp to have thought this out adequately ... May i refer your attention to the last four expansions? WIS, NeXt store, Fuel Change over, etc... "We've changed," they swear. And, like naive sods that we are, we believe them (or at least try to).
It's how life goes. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
946
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:53:00 -
[145] - Quote
Neo Gabriel wrote:What is it with this ridiculous cheering? you think you did a good job with this "interaction"? Go "improve" something else... Now i know how it feels to be CCPEED on. I swear soundwave yterbium and whoever else is in charge of this turd... i thought you learned that throwing **** at the wall and implementing what sticks didn't work. This patch will come back to bite you in the ass.
ALRIGHT IT IS DONE FULL ****** MODE ENGAGED
ITS SO GREAT TO KNOW THAT CCP REYARDED DEVS WITH NO CLUE ABOUT SOMETHING DECIDE YET AGAIN TO CCPEE ON ANOTHER GAME NICHE WITHOUT ANY THOUGHT INTO THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS
STATION LOCKOUT MEANS THAT -10 PILOTS THAT LOSE THEIR STATIONS WILL HAVE TO QUIT FW OR MOVE 20 JUMPS TO THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE
STILL NO FIX TO THE IMBALANCE OF EWAR AND NPCS IN GENERAL
YOU KNOW WHAT, I AM NOT GOING TO EXPLAIN ALL AND WHY THIS IS GOING TO BE THE FINAL NAIL ON THE FW COFFIN.
WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN 3 MONTHS IS THERE WILL ONLY BE 2 MILITIAS LEFT AND THE LOSING SIDES WILL NEVER RECOVER
>>>WHY HOW COULD THEY, AT THEIR WORST THIER LP REWARDS WILL COST 4X AS MUCH, THEY CANT DOCK ANYWHERE IN LOWSEC, THEY CANT RETREIVE THEIR SHIPS/ITEMS/REPAIR/RELOAD... WHO IN THEIR RIGHT FUQUING MIND WOULD STAY ANCHORED BY SUCH RESTRICTIONS???????????
>>>SPECIALLY WHEN A MUCH SIMPLER SOLUTION IS AVAILABLE: ---QUIT FW--- AND BEHOLD, YOU ARE FREE AGAIN!
LONG LIVE LOWSEC, LONG LIVE THE FEDERATION (as long as until my home stations are not locked out) LONG LIVE -10,
HERE COMES INFERO, HERALDING A NEW AGE OF LOWSEC PIRACY
Infinite amounts of butthurt detected. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:57:00 -
[146] - Quote
Patient 2428190 wrote:Kusum Fawn wrote:Patient 2428190 wrote:Mechanical Engineering Datacore, the most important datacore (and used in inventing all four racial varieties of ships) is exclusive to the faction with the easiest PvE (something you didn't address and going by your track record, never will. :soon: is pretty much CCP talk for never going to happen).
Words can't express how fvcking stupid you all must be. Which faction is that now? I see L4 agents of all Factions with Mech core research available. Because I'm sure you feel so smart that you know what research agents are, answer this question for me. Why should the most important datacore, used in all 4 races of ships, be specific to one LP store?
I have my moments , i know, and they are awesome. You however are also very angry, do you need a hug?
the CCP answer is "because we want to **** everything up.
but yes, i missed the part in the dev blog where they made mech cores Minmatar only.
there are others like Electromagnetic cores that are now gallente only, when caldari ships have hybrid bonuses too.
im sure that there are more. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time. |
Dratic
TURN LEFT Fall From Heaven
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:58:00 -
[147] - Quote
while you are looking at lp related stuff. Please can we have an option to purchase multiple lp items at the same time? Say i want 20 of an item at the moment we have to press accept 20 times which makes converting lp a chore. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:59:00 -
[148] - Quote
Dratic wrote:while you are looking at lp related stuff. Please can we have an option to purchase multiple lp items at the same time? Say i want 20 of an item at the moment we have to press accept 20 times which makes converting lp a chore.
you actually have to click 40 times,
redeem offer accept offer Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:01:00 -
[149] - Quote
I like these changes. I will keep an open mind.
I would prefer that neither offensive or defensive plexing gave LP until a a system is contested, because offensive plexing can be afk speed tanked by an unskilled alt too. I think it's equally subject to abuse.
I also don't like that neutrals won't be effected by the docking ban, because it just encourages the use of alts.
And please give us cyno jammers.
Regardless, you guys have obviously put a lot of work into this and seem committed to follow up. That, I like. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
947
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:02:00 -
[150] - Quote
Dratic wrote:while you are looking at lp related stuff. Please can we have an option to purchase multiple lp items at the same time? Say i want 20 of an item at the moment we have to press accept 20 times which makes converting lp a chore. Poor baby. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
|
Dratic
TURN LEFT Fall From Heaven
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:05:00 -
[151] - Quote
:) Poor Mice too! |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
404
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:06:00 -
[152] - Quote
"First, the offer requirements in the respective faction LP store will decrease. As such, at the lowest tier, LP store offers will be 4x times more expensive as they are now, while at the highest tier, they will be 4 times as cheap. This only applies to ISK and LP requirements for offers, not tags or items. It also only counts for the 4 Factional Warfare militia LP stores; no other corporation will be affected."
I think I must have this wrong.
A navy micro auxillary power core now cost 1500 lp.
If I am fighting for a losing faction and therefore have the lowest tier it will be 4xs more expensive or 6000 lp.
If I am fighting for the winning faction and therefore have the highest tier it be "4xs as cheap" or 375 lp.
If that is correct then for the majority of items in the lp store the winning side effectively gets 16xs the lp for a pvp kill.
The losing side would get effectively 1/16 the lp for a pvp kill with respect to the shared items. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Orisa Medeem
Hedion University Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:06:00 -
[153] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Orisa Medeem wrote:Two comments about the changes: Quote:[Given LP] = ([Market value of target ship] - [Max. Insurance market value] + [Fitted mods, rigs and subsystem market value] + [Transported items market value]) / 10000 Please take dropped items into consideration in that formula. They should either pay half compared to the destroyed ones, or nothing at all. This is important to prevent exploiting it. If you're carrying 100,000,000 ISK in loot, the EV of the drop is 50 mil ISK, and the person killing you gets 10,000 LP from it. If you were trying to abuse it, you'd be hard pressed to make more than 50 mil ISK off of 10k LP.
Petrus, you forgot to take the dropped items into account.
By destroying a ship with 100m on cargohold you get 10k LP plus about 50m in loot. Turning these 10k LP into more than 50m may be hard right now, but after the changes are implemented it isn't clear to me that this is not possible.
That's why I mentioned that you should be payed only for what you really destroy. :sand: -áover -á:awesome: |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
948
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:11:00 -
[154] - Quote
Orisa Medeem wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:Orisa Medeem wrote:Two comments about the changes: Quote:[Given LP] = ([Market value of target ship] - [Max. Insurance market value] + [Fitted mods, rigs and subsystem market value] + [Transported items market value]) / 10000 Please take dropped items into consideration in that formula. They should either pay half compared to the destroyed ones, or nothing at all. This is important to prevent exploiting it. If you're carrying 100,000,000 ISK in loot, the EV of the drop is 50 mil ISK, and the person killing you gets 10,000 LP from it. If you were trying to abuse it, you'd be hard pressed to make more than 50 mil ISK off of 10k LP. Petrus, you forgot to take the dropped items into account. By destroying a ship with 100m on cargohold you get 10k LP plus about 50m in loot. Turning these 10k LP into more than 50m may be hard right now, but after the changes are implemented it isn't clear to me that this is not possible. That's why I mentioned that you should be payed only for what you really destroy. If I remember correctly, current "good" ISK/LP rates are around 1000-1200 ISK/LP when cashing in your LP for stuff. Even if that quadrupled because of the 4x rewards (which it won't, because supply and demand will bring prices down), you would only be close to breaking even -- no potential for profit.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
IIXIII
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:17:00 -
[155] - Quote
thing that bugged me the most was that mecanical is minmatar, and every faction needs that for T2 ships, why not have that core be universal or even totaly seperated from the factions.
with the sugested layout, only minmatar T2 ship builders will be able to get all data cores from the LP/RP store. That cant be good.n++
yes alt posting like a boss |
gfldex
500
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:20:00 -
[156] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?
You are missing that exploding a big hostile fleet is going to make you the most money because those complexes have a fixed spawn rate. As more hostiles you got as more easy targets you will find. On top of that prices will go up for the faction that generates the least LP. You get LP not ISK and the value of you LP depends on the amount of competition you got. To get the most out of FW you want to share the least amount of friendlies in the killing.
When someone burns down your sandcastle, bring sausages. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
733
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:21:00 -
[157] - Quote
Hay can someone in FW answer a question for me? If you kill a guy on your own FW team, do you get an LP hit? Does it hurt the standing of your char towards the faction you are enlisted with? Do you get a criminal flag? Can you get kicked out of your malitia?
|
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
949
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:24:00 -
[158] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Hay can someone in FW answer a question for me? If you kill a guy on your own FW team, do you get an LP hit? Does it hurt the standing of your char towards the faction you are enlisted with? Do you get a criminal flag? Can you get kicked out of your malitia? You get GCC'd and lose a whole ton of standings. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
733
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:25:00 -
[159] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Gogela wrote:Hay can someone in FW answer a question for me? If you kill a guy on your own FW team, do you get an LP hit? Does it hurt the standing of your char towards the faction you are enlisted with? Do you get a criminal flag? Can you get kicked out of your malitia? You get GCC'd and lose a whole ton of standings. Might not be worth it then... Thanks Petrus!
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Sarinat Talen
Celestial Arms Manufacturing and Operations New Eden Research.
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:32:00 -
[160] - Quote
Congrats on the FW changes. I think they are great.
The datacores changes are not.
Datacores belong where they are, in R&D corps. They have nothing to do with factional warfare. This is just the old CCP way of thinking: Put a band aid on a problem that we will still have to fix later on. The problem with stems from the problems with T2 production and the lottery. That is what needs to be addressed. Adding datacores to LP stores and lowering the payout will simply raise invention costs and thus again raise prices on T2 items. Wasn't one of the main points of invention to lower prices? Recently prices on many T2 goods are almost at the same point of pre invention days. Many are higher. Just look a drones. Yes this has to do with PI and other factors (which are not problems, don't get me wrong), but why raise them more instead of addressing the real problem. You can find other ways to make FW LP stores more enticing besides screwing over people who have run missions to get access to good R&D agents and invested skill training and time into them. Besides the passive income from these datacores is not that great. I have been running agents for 5 years or so, and only cashed out 2 twice per agent or so (I have one I think i have never cashed out). The other day I calculated how much I would get by cashing out and selling all the cores and it was about 1.7 bil. If you think that is a lot for that amount of time, well we are not talking about the same game. And that is 5 agents, 4 of which are mechanical engineering.
And I have to add that it is astounding you would add cores to FW LP stores, and not R&D corp LP stores. Which reminds me, what ever happened to the special decryptors that were supposed to be in R&D LP stores years ago? Now is as good a time to mention them as any.
Don't go back to your old ways CCP. |
|
Machiko Agota
Magota Industries
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:36:00 -
[161] - Quote
Ok, I can understanding linking Datacores to the LP store...but why the Factional Warfare LP store!? I don't see the connection. Unless the goal it to force more players into FW ...
MA |
gwabakk
Magwanz Mining Nostradamus Effect
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:39:00 -
[162] - Quote
So CCP does go on with nonsensical datacore changes, denying the major effort taken by many to get access to lvl 4 research agents, denying them to make invention a profitable business. I'm sorry CCP, but you are making changes to solve problems that are only in your imagination. No-one is using research agents because they "give a free income stream". The threshold to gain access to those agents is too high, the "free" profit too little.
Changing FW, ok, but keep datacores out of it, they have nothing to do with it, and you are disandavtaging the wrong people |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
228
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:46:00 -
[163] - Quote
Great changes.
Passive income R&D tears should be plentiful (I have 5 R&D agents and this change is long overdue) 10k per core, nice.
My favorite is the people complaining that you are turning FW into null-sec lite. Yes they are. The whole point of FW was to be a gigantic war between the factions by conquering the enemies space. I don't really see the big deal with station lockout. Just drop FW for a day or get a neutral alt. It's not that hard. LP rewards for kills and offensive plexing sound very cool to me. Really tempted to rejoin FW now.
Oh and +1 for a cyno jammer upgrade. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
721
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:53:00 -
[164] - Quote
Would be nice if clones were cheaper in general so more people could participate in the meat grinder that is FW.
I've no interest in paying 40 million ISK for each clone. :P A million should be the limit. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
228
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:55:00 -
[165] - Quote
gwabakk wrote: No-one is using research agents because they "give a free income stream". The threshold to gain access to those agents is too high, the "free" profit too little.
Not sure what game you are playing but in EVE-Online that is exactly why people use research agents. In fact most people have research agents because you could easily fund an account through PLEX on datacores alone. Those days are long gone but all those people kept those accounts or just reactivate them one month per year to gain passive income.
You might use research agents to fund your personal t2 invention or whatever but I know people with huge datacore farms of many accounts and they gain a lot of passive income for little work. This is the majority of people using research agents. No amount of whining will change this fact.
Now you have to either interact with other people (gasp) or pvp in FW (double gasp) to gain lucrative items. Interaction and pvp in my EVE? Sounds cool. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 22:03:00 -
[166] - Quote
Urge...to join...FW...rising...fuuuuuuuuuu my carefully cultivated cross-empire standings will be ruined! |
Geksz
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 22:05:00 -
[167] - Quote
Machiko Agota wrote:Ok, I can understanding linking Datacores to the LP store...but why the Factional Warfare LP store!? I don't see the connection. Unless the goal it to force more players into FW ... MA
Exactly!
Militia "grunts" gathering research data from an LP store in a contested system?
What is the story behind FW militia LP store handing out datacores? How does a milita NPC corp come into the picutre in a contested military zone to hand out research datacores? Aren't research done far away from fighting zones? What if the enemy captures them? I don't think any milita office wants to give the enemy their research data...
This seems VERY arbitrary, and far from beliveable.
Also if u want to have good level 4 research agents u have to grind standings, and after that u have to travel a lot to gather the Datacores since the agents are scattered across the universe. It's far from passive...
|
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 22:13:00 -
[168] - Quote
Quote:Militia "grunts" gathering research data from an LP store in a contested system? It's actually quite clever. What you are doing is gathering field data and testing new equipment, thus enabling research. More seriously, the "it makes no sense" argument makes a superficially correct point, but considering that Eve's manufacturing system is already heavily dissociated (information does not get used up in the manufacturing process; why manufacturers have to keep re-inventing the same hulls and equipment? etc...), I don't see how it really matters.
I think it's better because it makes each of militia stores more unique. though I do agree restricting mechanical engineering to the TLF store is a poor choice. |
Cosmoes
Peraka
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 22:17:00 -
[169] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:gwabakk wrote: No-one is using research agents because they "give a free income stream". The threshold to gain access to those agents is too high, the "free" profit too little. Not sure what game you are playing but in EVE-Online that is exactly why people use research agents. In fact most people have research agents because you could easily fund an account through PLEX on datacores alone. Those days are long gone but all those people kept those accounts or just reactivate them one month per year to gain passive income. You might use research agents to fund your personal t2 invention or whatever but I know people with huge datacore farms of many accounts and they gain a lot of passive income for little work. This is the majority of people using research agents. No amount of whining will change this fact. Now you have to either interact with other people (gasp) or pvp in FW (double gasp) to gain lucrative items. Interaction and pvp in my EVE? Sounds cool.
How did you calculate that?
lets say 120 rp per day (I get 117.45 with max skills) 6 agents on each of your 3 characters (also pretty high as I find 5 is already plenty as to get 6 it's a 2 mil sp skill) 30 days in a month and 50 rp per datacore 300k for a datacore (current mechanical datacore's are 200k buy 288k sell from eve central)
120 * 18 * 30 * 300,000 / 50 = 388,800,000
plex prices are up in the 460's-480's
|
Gottii
Lutinari Syndicate Electus Matari
69
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 22:26:00 -
[170] - Quote
Glad to see FW getting some love. Thanks for CCP for making sure more parts of the sandbox get some much-needed attention. |
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Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
122
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 22:36:00 -
[171] - Quote
"we will be following feedback closely to make sure players that invested time into Research corporations are not abandoned"
The only way existing datacore *hores can abandon research is to abandon their account, they cant unlearn the months of SP, or unget the months of grinding standings for access to agents.
A better measure would be for you to look at how many new players are getting involved with R&D agents. |
Geksz
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:12:00 -
[172] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:Quote:Militia "grunts" gathering research data from an LP store in a contested system? It's actually quite clever. What you are doing is gathering field data and testing new equipment, thus enabling research. More seriously, the "it makes no sense" argument makes a superficially correct point, but considering that Eve's manufacturing system is already heavily dissociated (information does not get used up in the manufacturing process; why manufacturers have to keep re-inventing the same hulls and equipment? etc...), I don't see how it really matters. I think it's better because it makes each of militia stores more unique. though I do agree restricting mechanical engineering to the TLF store is a poor choice.
Well ok, that seems reasonable (to gather intel and test out new equipment) but then again, research is done far from fighting zones. Ur intel will be trasferred to research stations and such to develop stuff based on ur data, and then send back experimental, and advanced weapons and modules to the front to use them and test them. And that goes in cycles. They don't send back research data.
Manufacturing and invention related stuff has a meaningful mechanic that serves the economy well in EVE. U can't really compare this change to that. We have a lot of arbitraray stuff in eve, that breaks immersion, we don't need more. Especially something like this one.
This change gives the impression like: CCP was thinking about how to change datacore gathering from the old and forgotten research agent system for a long time now but couldn't think of a good way yet. Then the summer of rage and stuff after that happened and they had to focus attention on things that mattered for players. So they pulled FW, and somebody had this "great" idea, to give more incentives for players to get into FW, and slowly migrate datacores and FW together (as i think if it succeeds, datacores will be only avalible from the FW LP store "soon", as they iterate on FW in the coming expansions). It's like they always try to do the easiest and straightest way no matter the cost, and the collateral damage...
If they aren't satisfied with the "passive" nature of the datacore acquisition, then why not develop a new mechanic for it wich requires more player interaction? Why tie it to a completly unrelated part of the game? |
Silence iKillYouu
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
164
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:20:00 -
[173] - Quote
Epic. Can't wait to see all the homeless amarr crying on the forums. http://fw-frontline.blogspot.com/ |
Shaera Taam
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
35
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:27:00 -
[174] - Quote
Rhaile Vhindiscar wrote:"You want to do research, fine? The best way is to go kill people." I can see how that would play out to a potential scientist. So, are you really telling industrialist to join fw or just creating an interdependence without any real justification?
Overhaul datacore mining some other way. Get datacores out of FW. It doesn't make sense fluff wise or mechanic wise. You just got done telling people you're not going to let them shoot npcs to build things (drone nerf)...then you tell them you are going to make them shoot npcs to build things (fw overhaul). All you did was change the position in the production chain.
this. so much this.
i know, agreeing with a goon, huh? but the truth hurts sometimes...
+1 FW love, -1 DC nerf
/me heads off to unsub that second research-alt account...
Thus Spake the Frigate Goddess! |
Zimmy Zeta
Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects
1019
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:30:00 -
[175] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Shar Tegral wrote:Don't know if it has been said already: Each faction should have access to Mechanical Engineering. We-¦re definitely keeping an eye on this development. As mentioned, this team will continue looking at FW after Inferno with the priority being 1: make changes to what we just shipped (potentially to ME datacores) and then 2: improving FW even more with new changes. If something doesn-¦t end up the way we like it, they-¦ll change it. Once it-¦s in a place where everything is how we want it to be, they-¦ll move on and do more new FW features. Winter is going to be pretty sweet.
This might be a good oportunitiy to change the datacore-requirements of many invention jobs. It always irritated me, that about 75% (estimated) of invention jobs need ME datacores, a more balanced distribution of the needed datacores might be a good thing. On the other hand, if ME stays Minmatar only, joining Amarr militia might be a good way to troll all of Eve by making ME datacores nearly unobtainable to everyone and drive t2 prices skyhigh. On second thought, this will never happen- hundreds of players would join Minmatar militia for the sake of t2 wepaons and ships - so currently it will be impossilble for Amarr to win. -.- |
Mirei Jun
Right to Rule G00DFELLAS
34
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:34:00 -
[176] - Quote
Really great changes, overall.
I was happy to see the idea of "diminishing returns" being mentioned in the blog. However, one major difference between FW and null sec should be incentives to join the losing side.
Basically imagine a pendulum swinging. As it swings more in once direction the acceleration pushing it in the other direction increases. In this case that acceleration is rewards for killing the winning side and retaking objectives. This will help keep the fight going... And that is really the point of FW. The last thing we want is a scenario where one faction "wins" and there is no reason, and more importantly no reward worth the risk of fighting back.
I hope this explanation is clear enough for you to get an overall idea of what I mean. |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
42
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:34:00 -
[177] - Quote
I'm kidna wondering how many of these RP/Datacore whiners actually use them in invention... I do invention all the time (primary source of income) and datacores are BY FAR the lowest price impact in the process. |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
42
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:36:00 -
[178] - Quote
Mirei Jun wrote: Really great changes, overall.
I was happy to see the idea of "diminishing returns" being mentioned in the blog. However, one major difference between FW and null sec should be incentives to join the losing side.
Basically imagine a pendulum swinging. As it swings more in once direction the acceleration pushing it in the other direction increases. In this case that acceleration is rewards for killing the winning side and retaking objectives. This will help keep the fight going... And that is really the point of FW. The last thing we want is a scenario where one faction "wins" and there is no reason, and more importantly no reward worth the risk of fighting back.
I hope this explanation is clear enough for you to get an overall idea of what I mean.
That really is my only fear in all of this - the minmatar/amarr front is currently somewhat balanced in terms of numbers and determination, but I can only guess how the gal/cal side is gonna fare... Should be interesting, to say the least. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
271
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:42:00 -
[179] - Quote
Firstly, I have played in FW for 3 years before leaving it, and I am happy to see all these changes being announced. Thank you for the attention you devoted to FW for this summer.
My feedback :
1) Now I would have a few remarks on something that does not make much sense to me : if lowsec warzone stations become undockable for the pilots of the enemy militia (at last ! it did not make any sense otherwise...), I do hope the stations in enemy high sec are locked for them too ? It would not make a lot of sense if not... Not being able to dock in the stations of your enemy in lowsec, but being able to have a tea in their stations in high sec ? I do not recall having read any mention of enemy high sec stations, thus why I am asking.
2) I hope you know what you are doing by adding all these stakes here without fixing all the NPC and complexes lack of balance beforehand. Because I know two sides that are probably going to suffer a lot from this until it gets fixed.
3) Also, a few people already mentionned that the losing factions in the planned changes might get difficulties to get back on their feet without any safeguards in the new gameplay. I tend to agree with that. In the current system losing or winning does not mean a lot of things. The only thing that changes is the occupancy label at the top of our screens. People can still run their precious isk farming FW missions, dock in enemy stations, etc. Now then, in the Inferno planned changes the losing side will get a lot of disadvantages (which only makes sense, again, and adds a purpose to the fight, if only purely economical). This is really cool.
But with that in mind, now, imagine a militia losing terribly to the point they lost most of their systems. The enemy gets all the advantages listed in the devblog and the losing side gets a lot of disadvantages (which is, again, fine).What would push newcomers to go to the side of the losing faction ? I mean, except for the few people looking for challenge, most people in Eve think in terms of isk and advantages. I would bet that most of them will chose the winning side. What are the safeguards here ? Again, with the old system, we do not face this situation exactly because there is no disadvantage or advantage to be gained. The losing faction just has to HTFU and get back to work harder. Another possible consequence of this is that a side might be winning for a very long time, making all the conflict in the area boring for everyone (lack of targets on one side and no fun on the other side). I do not want to sound ominous but in a worst case scenario, this could severely damage FW as a whole.
Also, generally speaking in terms of gamedesign I think that winning has to come with rewards like advantages, but the more you win and the more you get advantages over the adversary (that gets a lot of disadvantages), then well, it becomes harder and harder for the loser to win and easier and easier for the winner to win. It sounds to me a little like an ouroboros, an issue feeding itself, a vicious circle. I think that kind of system needs a balance that acts as a failsafe to make sure that the losing side, even if in a delicate position with a lot of limited supplies, stuff, expensive prices, denied docking, no system upgrades, has a way to get back on its feet. For example, the more a faction expands its sovereignty, it would sound totally logical to me that its navy has to spread its forces on all the new captured territory, which obviously means that the more the systems under one's control, the less ships one can send to defend his own territory. In our case for example, it could mean that NPC ships would be less numerous in complexes while the NPC ships on the losing side would actually get a lot more numerous in the last systems under their control.
I think this would definitly make sure that the winning side gets all the advantages they gained through their hard work, but at a cost. Which basically means that the more you get access to advantages, the more it could get difficult to defend them. It only makes sense to me that way, and it fits quite well to the general eve spirit : the more profit you can get, the more dangerous it gets. |
Shea Valerien
House of Valerien
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:51:00 -
[180] - Quote
I love all ideas for improving FW. As a highsec carebear, I'm looking forward to joining up for FW here soon. |
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Cosmoes
Peraka
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:02:00 -
[181] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote: 1) Now I would have a few remarks on something that does not make much sense to me : if lowsec warzone stations become undockable for the pilots of the enemy militia (at last ! it did not make any sense otherwise...), I do hope the stations in enemy high sec are locked for them too ? It would not make a lot of sense if not... Not being able to dock in the stations of your enemy in lowsec, but being able to have a tea in their stations in high sec ? I do not recall having read any mention of enemy high sec stations, thus why I am asking.
Not entirely sure on mechanics of this but does this new thing block you from all stations or just amarr stations?
Just curious as I have 2 characters in FW with r&d agents for a minmatar r&d corp but 4/5 of their agents are in amarr/caldari high sec. |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
137
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:03:00 -
[182] - Quote
OK so I have a question about these "minor sites", and I really hope a dev or someone who knows how new FW will work will answer it.
So when they talk about "Capturing payouts" are those sites respawning? Or does it work like some sort of king of the hill mechanic?
So can I perpetually run "minor sites" all day long like havens and get 10,000 LP a tick? Or will I have to wait for the enemy militia to come by and take the local "minor site" so I can take it back for 10,000 LP?
Because if they infinitely re-spawn I am joining the minmitar militia and farming sites all day long in relative safety. If they work by a capture the flag mechanic then I am joining the amarr militia and taking out some lazy minmitar pilots. |
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
149
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:08:00 -
[183] - Quote
Crossposted from a FW thread on another forum (disclaimer: I don't fly in FW and I don't intend to in the future, but I recognize that this is intended to have an effect on people outside of FW, and that part does include me. I'm also tired of the continual QQ whenever the advantage pendulum swings from one militia to the other.)
Anyway:
As I've said to a few people already, I like the changes they've already got listed, and think they're a great start, however I believe there are a few very important things missing from the list that without which I would consider this not in the slightest ready for release.
Things that help balance the playing field regardless of numbers on either side, like: - I-Hubs requiring constant upkeep. Even if nobody's offensively plexing in your system, LP should still need to be funneled into the I-Hub to keep it upgraded. Constantly. This would mean that if you don't feed an I-Hub, you can lose all of the upgrades and possibly the system; it would also force people to prioritize feeding the I-Hubs of strategic systems over others. Force militias to play triage with their systems - pool your LP into these two particularly important systems in exchange for barely upgrading (or even losing) these five systems over here that are of little use to either side. - Make rewards for various accomplishments scale inversely to the amount of space your militia holds. This means diminishing returns for LP rewards based on the amount of space held by your militia, and conversely, increased returns for the side with less space. The more of the opposing faction's space your militia has claimed, the less LP you receive for various tasks. The less space your militia holds, the higher the LP rewards, and the easier it is to flip systems. Coupled with the previous, the more space you hold, the smaller the amount of LP there is to spare for fueling your I-Hubs, and the harder it is to keep control over more space than less space; likewise, it makes it easier to make a comeback after you've been pushed into a corner.
These two changes alone would make me consider that maybe things were ready to be rolled out. It obviously needs more, but without these two? No. No way in hell is it ready for release. |
Adellle Nadair
FireStar Mercenaries
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:22:00 -
[184] - Quote
Mechanical Datacores are used in all t2 ship invention along with the specific starship engineering of each faction. But Minmatar has a monopoly of the mechanical datacores for faction warfare. This needs to be changed. Mechanical Datacores should be available in for all factions. |
Infinion
Awesome Corp
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:28:00 -
[185] - Quote
few questions
1) will there be incentives to capturing entire enemy constellations where the systems of the constellation are eligible for possibly a different tree of more considerable upgrades?
2) If a faction isolates systems from its enemy faction, effectively cutting off their supply lines, could the isolated systems face a weakened infrastructure or some other negative consequence?
3) what happens if a faction loses control of all of its contestable systems? have you considered a victory incentive? |
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
207
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:33:00 -
[186] - Quote
For the FW Dev Team.
So FW is now about sov, so does that mean, say IF OMS becomes flippable Can I as an Amarr pilot fly down with 80 of my closest dread friends, and drop on the system like it was naked cake? Thus turning it From a Gal system to an AMARR system?
Also, Flipping LP reward, 40,000LP Between everyone? Or each? Cause between everyone and you might as well not shoot the thing and just camp the entry gate and gank WTs coming to stop the flip, more LP that way. I would advise either INCREASE the spilt amound vastly, or giving out a set amount per person.
Also please conside dockable, red cross style station. No repairs, medical clones or market. Just somewhere to store ships until you at lease redo POS's. Otherwise FW players could soon find themselves doing 10 jumps just to gank two frigs. Not fun game play. Sure we could go put up a load of POS's and store crap, but please think of the smaller corps, and solo players. Flying a bunch of systems just to get to a fight in FW is not cool. We are not Nullbears, We don't want a see of blue for 30 jumps. |
Hockston Axe
101
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:47:00 -
[187] - Quote
Shar Tegral wrote:Don't know if it has been said already: Each faction should have access to Mechanical Engineering.
This. Makes no sense that one faction has a stranglehold on it. (Also, it's Mechanical Engineering, not Duct Tape Engineering.) |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1338
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:52:00 -
[188] - Quote
Two step wrote:Good changes, but Mech Eng cores really should be available from all factions.
They already are, you just have to put the effort into collecting them from R&D agents across the cluster. Ideally, ME datacores would not be available through FW LP stores since they are not faction specific. The price will drop due to datacores farmers resorting to the only datacore that is profitable to collect, which means all alts will be acquiring cores at the same stations, which means collection runs don't take so long, which means there is less income required to make the effort of collecting cores worthwhile. Though supply might stall for the first six months since the collection runs will only be worthwhile when there are a large number of cores to collect.
Prior to this change, it was borderline wasteful to collect cores any more frequently than every three months or so. With a halving of the production rate, it will now be six months between visits. With the dropping of value of the cores, the farmers will be visiting their agents even less frequently.
Anyone who thinks datacore farming is "passive" has rocks in their heads. The time spent collecting them is time the collector is not mining, mission running, incursion running, scamming or mission ganking on their most productive character. Datacores do not magically transition from agent to market.
Shooting bunkers to gain datacores is just as much "mining with guns" as drone poo ever was.
FW 2.0: The PVE Farmers Strike Back. |
Miang Hawwa
Amphysvena
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:54:00 -
[189] - Quote
Make Pirate factions also participate in this factional warfare and my corp will gladly join the Sansha. Until then, not interested. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1338
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:59:00 -
[190] - Quote
Cosmoes wrote:Not entirely sure on mechanics of this but does this new thing block you from all stations or just amarr stations?
Just curious as I have 2 characters in FW with r&d agents for a minmatar r&d corp but 4/5 of their agents are in amarr/caldari high sec.
At present it appears that you will only be locked out of all stations in the occupied system if the occupier is an enemy faction, there is no lockout based on faction standings.
|
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 01:09:00 -
[191] - Quote
Adellle Nadair wrote:Mechanical Datacores are used in all t2 ship invention along with the specific starship engineering of each faction. But Minmatar has a monopoly of the mechanical datacores for faction warfare. This needs to be changed. Mechanical Datacores should be available in for all factions. ^^This. I don't even do Industry and I can figure out that giving ME datacores to just one faction is a terrible terrible terrible idea. It is THE most used datacore. Giving it to one faction is like making Veldspar only available from one area of space.
Come on CCP, do at least a marginal amount of research into things before you go changing them. This is the sort of stuff that makes people think you don't even play the game.
|
Cosmoes
Peraka
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 02:07:00 -
[192] - Quote
Hockston Axe wrote:Shar Tegral wrote:Don't know if it has been said already: Each faction should have access to Mechanical Engineering. This. Makes no sense that one faction has a stranglehold on it. (Also, it's Mechanical Engineering, not Duct Tape Engineering.)
While I can see why limiting mechanical engineering to Minmatar is bad I honestly think it's fine.
Caldari LP store has best shield mods yet Minmatar use shields. Amarr have armor when Gallente armor tank as well. Gallente have webs while Minmatar have ships bonnused towards webbing.
Is Minmatar only mechanical engineering massively unbalanced towards minmatar? hell yes, but that doesn't mean the LP stores as a whole are unbalanced.
Also we still have r&d agents and that like 0.01% that comes from exploration so that they don't have a complete monopoly on it. |
Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 02:20:00 -
[193] - Quote
Rhaile Vhindiscar wrote:"You want to do research, fine? The best way is to go kill people." I can see how that would play out to a potential scientist. So, are you really telling industrialist to join fw or just creating an interdependence without any real justification?
Overhaul datacore mining some other way. Get datacores out of FW. It doesn't make sense fluff wise or mechanic wise. You just got done telling people you're not going to let them shoot npcs to build things (drone nerf)...then you tell them you are going to make them shoot npcs to build things (fw overhaul). All you did was change the position in the production chain.
Actually its more like:
"You want to do research, fine but you will need to do experiments on the fringes of empire. The factions don't want explosions in safe space or anything. By the way the stations with the services you need come under attack regularly so you will need to learn how to fight and protect your work. Welcome to the fringes."
|
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
122
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 02:22:00 -
[194] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:OMG, this Datacore stuff will become a chaos!!!! I'm running to Hi-sec to withdrown all my RP.... This will increase T2 prices in a long run....
I just hope CCP make something fast with the moon minerals, and the minning profession to fix this... All the prices in eve are rising up fast!!! this way... we will have a ship shortage soon.... and less pvp...
Yes, prices will be "high", i suggest everyone should keep *cough* their datacores, at least until i have had a chance to ...
brb |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
132
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 02:23:00 -
[195] - Quote
Popsikle wrote:Rhaile Vhindiscar wrote:"You want to do research, fine? The best way is to go kill people." I can see how that would play out to a potential scientist. So, are you really telling industrialist to join fw or just creating an interdependence without any real justification?
Overhaul datacore mining some other way. Get datacores out of FW. It doesn't make sense fluff wise or mechanic wise. You just got done telling people you're not going to let them shoot npcs to build things (drone nerf)...then you tell them you are going to make them shoot npcs to build things (fw overhaul). All you did was change the position in the production chain.
Actually its more like: "You want to do research, fine but you will need to do experiments on the fringes of empire. The factions don't want explosions in safe space or anything. By the way the stations with the services you need come under attack regularly so you will need to learn how to fight and protect your work. Welcome to the fringes." Your explanation makes sense if R&D wass just moved to lowsec, but not when you get rewarded with datacores for shooting people and have no prerequisite of learning about the field you are researching. |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
191
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 02:23:00 -
[196] - Quote
Looks awesome! Alliance Auction - EVE Rogues: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1215438#post1215438 |
Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 02:31:00 -
[197] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Popsikle wrote:Rhaile Vhindiscar wrote:"You want to do research, fine? The best way is to go kill people." I can see how that would play out to a potential scientist. So, are you really telling industrialist to join fw or just creating an interdependence without any real justification?
Overhaul datacore mining some other way. Get datacores out of FW. It doesn't make sense fluff wise or mechanic wise. You just got done telling people you're not going to let them shoot npcs to build things (drone nerf)...then you tell them you are going to make them shoot npcs to build things (fw overhaul). All you did was change the position in the production chain.
Actually its more like: "You want to do research, fine but you will need to do experiments on the fringes of empire. The factions don't want explosions in safe space or anything. By the way the stations with the services you need come under attack regularly so you will need to learn how to fight and protect your work. Welcome to the fringes." Your explanation makes sense if R&D wass just moved to lowsec, but not when you get rewarded with datacores for shooting people and have no prerequisite of learning about the field you are researching.
No, your misreading the blog (or I am). They are removing the multiplier for rp's. You will still be able to do research and get datacores, but you will also be able to get them as rewards in the LP store. So if datacores are your thing, your research agents are important, but so would be factional warfare because it controls the price and availability of datacores.
Quote:As such, we are removing all field multipliers on research fields, while unifying RP amount to claim one datacore to 100. While this actually double amount of RPs to claim a datacore, we also are introducing a small 10,000 ISK fee per datacore to ensure there is a small cost tied to their retrieval.
We also are introducing datacores to the Factional Warfare LP stores, spilt into each individual faction so there is no market overlap. They are tied to the War Zone control effect on LP store prices, that means offers will dramatically change depending on which side is winning. |
Kno Bodeesbitch
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 02:50:00 -
[198] - Quote
Will mining yields be boosted for Faction miners daring to mine in a system held by their faction?
Why are you all looking at me like that?
It could happen... |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
132
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 02:53:00 -
[199] - Quote
Popsikle wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Popsikle wrote:Rhaile Vhindiscar wrote:"You want to do research, fine? The best way is to go kill people." I can see how that would play out to a potential scientist. So, are you really telling industrialist to join fw or just creating an interdependence without any real justification?
Overhaul datacore mining some other way. Get datacores out of FW. It doesn't make sense fluff wise or mechanic wise. You just got done telling people you're not going to let them shoot npcs to build things (drone nerf)...then you tell them you are going to make them shoot npcs to build things (fw overhaul). All you did was change the position in the production chain.
Actually its more like: "You want to do research, fine but you will need to do experiments on the fringes of empire. The factions don't want explosions in safe space or anything. By the way the stations with the services you need come under attack regularly so you will need to learn how to fight and protect your work. Welcome to the fringes." Your explanation makes sense if R&D wass just moved to lowsec, but not when you get rewarded with datacores for shooting people and have no prerequisite of learning about the field you are researching. No, your misreading the blog (or I am). They are removing the multiplier for rp's. You will still be able to do research and get datacores, but you will also be able to get them as rewards in the LP store. So if datacores are your thing, your research agents are important, but so would be factional warfare because it controls the price and availability of datacores. You didn't miss anything as far as the content, but missed the point of the post being that Rhaile doesn't think datacores should be tied to FW creating a "shoot people for science" mechanic. While true R&D as we know it is for the most part being maintained it doesn't change the fact that those with no relation to research skills or R&D corps/agents will soon be able to science with their guns. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
648
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 03:12:00 -
[200] - Quote
This is it CCP. This is why you lost me and I'd love to continue to buy you another 6 one year subs. /
Please, don't just forget about Factional warfare this time, release at least one more update later, in the winter. Give it some serious followup, encase some of the changes have unexpected side effects, or are broken somehow. You never know what us players are going to do with that code of yours. If it can exploited you better believe someone will find out how.
Please ccp fix your game so I can return without feeling like the game I wanted to play never got fixed. Or any changes in forever, it really made me lose hope in taking your vision seriously. And then with Incarna, I dont' know, I know I'm one player, but I really do hope you guys hit it out of the park with this change. We won't know untill we get into space and try it out.
Just promise to follow up, add or remove things if they don't work! Please! |
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
881
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 03:29:00 -
[201] - Quote
I never thought CCP would be able to devise a FW expansion that would appeal to both the players that have been playing under the current rules for so many years and still entice all the others who have opted out. Congrats guys. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
649
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 03:35:00 -
[202] - Quote
T'san Manaan wrote:Changes look good so far can't wait to see it go live. Just some thoughts I would like to see implemented in the future. 1. Missions go to the nearest "Contested" system to keep the mission farmers in the combat zone. 2. Benefits to P.I. and industry (I.E. faster manufacturing) for upgrading systems 3. captured stations use current Sov holder Agents. 4. station lockouts to include anyone with a negative faction standing or outlaw status. Other than that I like everything I see so far especially the no docking for your enemies
YES THIS THIS THIS
what a simple wya to put what I once tried to explain in 3 paragraphs. Do this CCP, do this and all will be epic. And the game will become fun! |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
649
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 03:38:00 -
[203] - Quote
Wolodymyr wrote:OK so I have a question about these "minor sites", and I really hope a dev or someone who knows how new FW will work will answer it.
So when they talk about "Capturing payouts" are those sites respawning? Or does it work like some sort of king of the hill mechanic?
So can I perpetually run "minor sites" all day long like havens and get 10,000 LP a tick? Or will I have to wait for the enemy militia to come by and take the local "minor site" so I can take it back for 10,000 LP?
Because if they infinitely re-spawn I am joining the minmitar militia and farming sites all day long in relative safety. If they work by a capture the flag mechanic then I am joining the amarr militia and taking out some lazy minmitar pilots.
Oh and about all this whining over datacores. I would rather the profits from datacores actually go to people who are fighting in the militia, rather than carebears who don't give a crap about warring factions or lowsec, and are only there to farm isk.
This is actully somethign I remember being called for 3 years ago. The idea that you can't farm sites. That each system should have 4-5 sites that stay in space all the time. And you gain or loss infulence over a system over time. Which ever side owns more sites will have the timer go in their favor.
Thus expanding the timer mechanic used inside each site to the whole system venerability. Would solve Time zone conflicts and bring conflict into controlling a systems, with some sites being frigate only have whole fleets of small ships getting into fleet brawls. We NEED THAT.
I guess what I'm saying is make frigate only sites just as important and valuable as ones with battleships. The idea being since you limit players to small weaker ships, it is just as hard to clear a small site as it is to clear a large site. becuase in the large site you have better and more powerful ships to help you clear them./?
You can train up for small ships for 2 YEARS OF SKILLS. Let us super frigate pilots have the small ship battlefield be worth just as much towards victory points *not lp payout* Our frigate only sites shoud help turn systems as much as large sites. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
649
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 03:47:00 -
[204] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?
-Liang
Your missing the datacores. If your whole teams LP rewards go down and the LP cost of LP goes up. then those datacores are going to spike in price. So joining the losing side will be stupidly profitable. Becuase each kill you get and LP reward you manage to find will be wroth more than the other sides datacores. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
132
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 03:49:00 -
[205] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?
-Liang Your missing the datacores. If your whole teams LP rewards go down and the LP cost of LP goes up. then those datacores are going to spike in price. So joining the losing side will be stupidly profitable. Becuase each kill you get and LP reward you manage to find will be wroth more than the other sides datacores. Being that I haven't played much in the markets I must ask, is it really expected that higher costs will lead to greater profits when demand remains the same? |
Sarinat Talen
Celestial Arms Manufacturing and Operations New Eden Research.
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 03:59:00 -
[206] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:gwabakk wrote: No-one is using research agents because they "give a free income stream". The threshold to gain access to those agents is too high, the "free" profit too little. Not sure what game you are playing but in EVE-Online that is exactly why people use research agents. In fact most people have research agents because you could easily fund an account through PLEX on datacores alone. Those days are long gone but all those people kept those accounts or just reactivate them one month per year to gain passive income. You might use research agents to fund your personal t2 invention or whatever but I know people with huge datacore farms of many accounts and they gain a lot of passive income for little work. This is the majority of people using research agents. No amount of whining will change this fact. Now you have to either interact with other people (gasp) or pvp in FW (double gasp) to gain lucrative items. Interaction and pvp in my EVE? Sounds cool.
Incorrect. RPs do not accumulate on inactive accounts.
I am all for interaction to get DCs. But the current daily missions are untenable with your R&D agents 20-30 jumps away from each other. If DCs were in R&D LP stores, well wouldn't we all be running missions for those corps again? Also the daily R&D missions could show up in your journal like storyline missions. That way you know if your agent wants some trit, or widgets or whatever in advance, so you don't have to go there and then go get it. Though these missions need a revamp in general. The traveling is so brutal it is not worth doing them most of the time. Or add storyline missions to R&D corps (which have a severe lack of them, you will get a storyline agent from a different corp contacting you in many regions) that give out DCs as rewards.
Let me also clarify, getting rid of the multipliers is a great idea. Consistency is good. But doubling the price and moving cores into FW is not. Also, consider releasing level 5 R&D agents if you are going to increase the cost. That way you reward the people who have worked on their standings. I know they are in a database somewhere, I have seen them on the test server before. |
Alaekessa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
34
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:17:00 -
[207] - Quote
Two thoughts.
1) By allowing the IHub benefits to affect neuts, you are effectively gutting any internal Militia industrial organization by giving the neuts none of the drawbacks (i.e. perma-wardec) and all of the benefits.
2) If Cynojammers were to be included, IMHO, they should be keyed to the Sovereign Militia. Allowing them to have an easier time with logistics while denying their enemies (as well as neuts) the opportunity to drop carriers on their heads. Quit Crying and Just Suck It Up |
Destru Kaneda
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
49
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:24:00 -
[208] - Quote
Wolodymyr wrote:So can I perpetually run "minor sites" all day long like havens and get 10,000 LP a tick? Or will I have to wait for the enemy militia to come by and take the local "minor site" so I can take it back for 10,000 LP?
System has to be contested for you to be awarded anything. Join Amarr. http://minmatar.eve-kill.net/ http://binaerpilot.no/ GMU d-(---)pu s+++:-- a-- C++++$ U>+++ P+ L+ E---- W+++$ w PS+++ PE-- Y++ PGP-- t+ tv-- b+ D++ G e- h r++ y+* |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:25:00 -
[209] - Quote
ZenithDK wrote:This looks pretty awesome!
Have been thinking about getting into FW for a long time, but I didn't see much point in it - with 2 characters doing datacore mining, there will suddenly be a big interest in it for me.
One thing though: Doesn't this sort of encourage that you take sov, buy all your data cores - loose sov, watch prices spike, and then you dump your cheaply acquired stash? If a sufficiently large corp in FW can be deciding factor/work together with others, what's to prevent this?
Datacores will get much more expensive until some corps do something like what you have suggested.
The mission runners will leave FW when the update hits TQ leaving only PvPers and plexers who are generally not interested in watching boring markets for fluctuations/trends.
Most players will just purchase the same faction ships that they always have from the LP Store. So unless industry players want to pay 15x more for Datacores - they better start joining FW.
Moving these Datacores to FW is a brilliant way of getting more targets and their non Militia hauler alts into low sec for everyone to blow up. If you come to farm Datacores - your hauler alts etc are all gonna die lots. :)
I can see it now - Farm Militia LP, Buy Datacores, Contract to non Militia Alt, Undock, Militia kill your Hauler, tears and lolz in Militia chat.
Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:26:00 -
[210] - Quote
Maz3r Rakum wrote:Salicaz wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Thank you though, for keeping a positive attitude and for being willing to try something before judging it. Players like you should have a lot of fun in the days ahead, I wish everyone else felt the same.
CCP Guy> Hey guys, remember that broken feature we released years back called Faction Warfare? [Room erupts with howling laughter]. CCP Guy > [Wipes tear from eye after laughing so hard]. Lol! Iknorite! Well apparently some people still do it, no really they do! CCP Prat from meeting > Why haven't they left for null sec, our beloved end game vision? CCP Guy > I don't know, apparently they lived begrudgingly with the half arsed broken mess and.... CCP Prat from meeting > But why haven't they left for null sec, our beloved end game vision? CCP Guy > shrugs* CCP Prat from meeting > **** em, bring null sec to them then, lock them out of station. I can't believe they still do it lol! We even stopped adding news to the militia office window in Feb 2010. Let them have a helping prod into the direction that be null! [rapturous applaud from the rest of the meeting] CCP Guy > They're bound to complain, what should we say? CCP Prat from meeting > Nothing, just let that lovely Hans fellow from that gathering we invited, er, what are they called? CCP Guy > CSM? CCP Prat from meeting > Yeah them, get him to bang on about how good it really is for them.
http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2010-08-02/1280722714336.jpg |
|
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:28:00 -
[211] - Quote
Machiko Agota wrote:Ok, I can understanding linking Datacores to the LP store...but why the Factional Warfare LP store!? I don't see the connection. Unless the goal it to force more players into FW ... MA
So that you have to haul them from low sec. Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:32:00 -
[212] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote: So that you have to haul them from low sec.
Confirming that there are no FW stations in high sec.
Datacores are the new technetium! |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:33:00 -
[213] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:IbanezLaney wrote: So that you have to haul them from low sec.
Confirming that there are no FW stations in high sec. Datacores are the new technetium!
There are - but the systems in high can't be upgraded. :) Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Sarinat Talen
Celestial Arms Manufacturing and Operations New Eden Research.
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:46:00 -
[214] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Machiko Agota wrote:Ok, I can understanding linking Datacores to the LP store...but why the Factional Warfare LP store!? I don't see the connection. Unless the goal it to force more players into FW ... MA So that you have to haul them from low sec.
Many R&D agents are already in low sec. That doesn't justify DCs in FW LP stores.
|
raukhur
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 05:16:00 -
[215] - Quote
PVP loyalty points obviously in the future need to be going to logistic pilots. I mean once the system with logistic pilots on killmails is in place, it needs to be part of the php LP formula too. |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 06:03:00 -
[216] - Quote
Sarinat Talen wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:Machiko Agota wrote:Ok, I can understanding linking Datacores to the LP store...but why the Factional Warfare LP store!? I don't see the connection. Unless the goal it to force more players into FW ... MA So that you have to haul them from low sec. Many R&D agents are already in low sec. That doesn't justify DCs in FW LP stores.
More targets in low sec - What other justification is needed?
Most people are using high sec R&D agents so the fact that there is already low sec R&D agents is irrelevant. How many Badger loads of data cores have you shipped from low sec to high sec?
Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
220
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 06:13:00 -
[217] - Quote
I don't see why T2 invention/manufacturing folks are complaining so much about the datacores.
The current R&D agent system strictly limits the number of cores you can earn per account. Once you've trained up everything to level 5, on all three toons (which takes a bloody long time, btw), you can't earn more cores unless you pay for more accounts. This has always been a bottleneck for T2 BPC invention.
Under the new system, you just join the winning faction, run missions to farm LP and stock up on the cores, at up to 4x cheaper than the base cost (since you are in the winning faction). More missions, more cores, no limit. As the tides of war shift, you quit and join the other faction, run missions to farm LP and stock up on the cores. Once again, more missions, more cores, no limit.
If you are worried about the standings, just put one alt in the Caldari/Amarr faction and another alt in the Gallente/Minmatar faction. Keep your main out of FW, and you don't need to worry about it.
Keep in mind, too, that you'll no longer need to train up a bunch of skills nor grind the standings to use the R&D agents, to farm datacores with an alt. You just need to be able to run the FW missions, which really aren't all that difficult, even with the risk of getting shot at by other players.
True, it isn't passive any more, but that's ok, since you should be able to easily farm a lot more datacores, in order to drive those T2 BPC invention crap shoots.
As for hauling them out of low sec, no BFD. Datacores aren't that bulky and a cloaky transport works fine. But, if you are too nervous to do it yourself, you can always courier contract it to the nearest high sec system, with someone like Black Frog.
And, finally, as far as losing out on all of the training time which you have put into those passive ISK generators, CCP Ytterbium stated:
"While our current intention is to turn datacore gathering into more of an active profession than it currently is, we will be following feedback closely to make sure players that invested time into Research corporations are not abandoned, most likely by making further changes to them in the next release."
Isn't this nice, esp. considering the fact that most of you (incl. me) have made back that original investment many times over already.... ;) |
Romeo Amore
The Wombles
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 06:13:00 -
[218] - Quote
Destroying a Machariel fitted with tech 2 mods: gained LP = (1.170m ISK GÇô 95m ISK + 40m ISK + 0 ) / 10000 = 111500 LP
LP store offers will be 4x times more expensive as they are now, while at the highest tier, they will be 4 times as cheap.
So in a faction doing well killing a single machariel is worth the equivalent of 4*111,500LP. That's 446,000LP. That's close to 5.5 times the payout for a level 5 mission. That's getting close to 2 navy battleships worth of LP in that single kill. I feel this goes a little too far |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
99
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 06:33:00 -
[219] - Quote
Rewards being proportional to the space each militia holds is the mechanism that makes the pendulum swing back.
As long as T2 ships are reasonably well balanced across races (which may or may not be true) and supply from R&D agents is relatively low (which will become true - those who have already paid the sunk cost of skill training will continue to farm but few will start new datacore alts) the economic incentive for each individual player should always be to join the losing side under the proposed system.
However, I would expect to see agreements between traders managing large stockpiles of datacores and militias regarding controlled sov changes - have amarr win for one month (buy cheap amarr datacores, sell expensive minmatar ones) and then let minmatar win for the next (sell expensive amarr datacores, buy cheap minmatar ones), .... |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
53
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 06:34:00 -
[220] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:I don't see why T2 invention/manufacturing folks are complaining so much about the datacores.
The current R&D agent system strictly limits the number of cores you can earn per account. Once you've trained up everything to level 5, on all three toons (which takes a bloody long time, btw), you can't earn more cores unless you pay for more accounts. This has always been a bottleneck for T2 BPC invention.
Under the new system, you just join the winning faction, run missions to farm LP and stock up on the cores, at up to 4x cheaper than the base cost (since you are in the winning faction). More missions, more cores, no limit. As the tides of war shift, you quit and join the other faction, run missions to farm LP and stock up on the cores. Once again, more missions, more cores, no limit.
If you are worried about the standings, just put one alt in the Caldari/Amarr faction and another alt in the Gallente/Minmatar faction. Keep your main out of FW, and you don't need to worry about it.
Keep in mind, too, that you'll no longer need to train up a bunch of skills nor grind the standings to use the R&D agents, to farm datacores with an alt. You just need to be able to run the FW missions, which really aren't all that difficult, even with the risk of getting shot at by other players.
True, it isn't passive any more, but that's ok, since you should be able to easily farm a lot more datacores, in order to drive those T2 BPC invention crap shoots.
As for hauling them out of low sec, no BFD. Datacores aren't that bulky and a cloaky transport works fine. But, if you are too nervous to do it yourself, you can always courier contract it to the nearest high sec system, with someone like Black Frog.
And, finally, as far as losing out on all of the training time which you have put into those passive ISK generators, CCP Ytterbium stated:
"While our current intention is to turn datacore gathering into more of an active profession than it currently is, we will be following feedback closely to make sure players that invested time into Research corporations are not abandoned, most likely by making further changes to them in the next release."
Isn't this nice, esp. considering the fact that most of you (incl. me) have made back that original investment many times over already.... ;)
~bolded part Now they need to train up a bunch of other skills, And fly ships, and avoid getting blown up and shoot other ships. all of which is a big difference that you seem to be ignoring. (you aren't ignoring that its a difference, you are ignoring that its a big difference)
~Italic part Easy if you have unlimited time to play several characters one after another. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time. |
|
Lost True
Paradise project
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 06:43:00 -
[221] - Quote
I'm deeply disapointed about the way you're get rid of R&D.
Quote: A change mentioned during Fanfest concerns datacores and research agents in general. While we do acknowledge that initial the initial period to train up for high-level research agents take times, effort and money, we are not particularly fond of the passive datacore income in general. Indeed, once the initial requirements are met, this is not so much of an active profession and more of a passive collection of items, which we want to look at.
Did anyone here ever heard sucn words as investment or a passive income? Or there is only a working class?
Anyway, why don't just lower an RP/Day? |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 06:49:00 -
[222] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:I don't see why T2 invention/manufacturing folks are complaining so much about the datacores.
The current R&D agent system strictly limits the number of cores you can earn per account. Once you've trained up everything to level 5, on all three toons (which takes a bloody long time, btw), you can't earn more cores unless you pay for more accounts. This has always been a bottleneck for T2 BPC invention.
Under the new system, you just join the winning faction, run missions to farm LP and stock up on the cores, at up to 4x cheaper than the base cost (since you are in the winning faction). More missions, more cores, no limit. As the tides of war shift, you quit and join the other faction, run missions to farm LP and stock up on the cores. Once again, more missions, more cores, no limit.
If you are worried about the standings, just put one alt in the Caldari/Amarr faction and another alt in the Gallente/Minmatar faction. Keep your main out of FW, and you don't need to worry about it.
Keep in mind, too, that you'll no longer need to train up a bunch of skills nor grind the standings to use the R&D agents, to farm datacores with an alt. You just need to be able to run the FW missions, which really aren't all that difficult, even with the risk of getting shot at by other players.
True, it isn't passive any more, but that's ok, since you should be able to easily farm a lot more datacores, in order to drive those T2 BPC invention crap shoots.
As for hauling them out of low sec, no BFD. Datacores aren't that bulky and a cloaky transport works fine. But, if you are too nervous to do it yourself, you can always courier contract it to the nearest high sec system, with someone like Black Frog.
And, finally, as far as losing out on all of the training time which you have put into those passive ISK generators, CCP Ytterbium stated:
"While our current intention is to turn datacore gathering into more of an active profession than it currently is, we will be following feedback closely to make sure players that invested time into Research corporations are not abandoned, most likely by making further changes to them in the next release."
Isn't this nice, esp. considering the fact that most of you (incl. me) have made back that original investment many times over already.... ;) ~bolded part Now they need to train up a bunch of other skills, And fly ships, and avoid getting blown up and shoot other ships. all of which is a big difference that you seem to be ignoring. (you aren't ignoring that its a difference, you are ignoring that its a big difference) ~Italic part Easy if you have unlimited time to play several characters one after another.
No extra skill training needed. You can earn LP in an unfit rookie ship in plexes if you want.
Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Protheroe
UMEC
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 06:54:00 -
[223] - Quote
I agree that Mechanical Engineering datacores should be available in all factions' LP Stores. Here's a list of the total value of all datacores traded in The Forge (Jita) over the past year, sorted by the factions whose LP Stores they will be available in. Numbers are rounded to the nearest 100K datacores and billion ISK.
02.1 Million Datacores 0,147 Billion ISK Amarrian Starship Engineering 01.5 Million Datacores 0,180 Billion ISK Graviton Physics 02.7 Million Datacores 0,519 Billion ISK High Energy Physics 01.7 Million Datacores 0,364 Billion ISK Laser Physics 03.3 Million Datacores 0,820 Billion ISK Nanite Engineering
11.3 Million Datacores 2,030 Billion ISK Amarr Total
03.3 Million Datacores 0,217 Billion ISK Caldari Starship Engineering 03.6 Million Datacores 0,949 Billion ISK Hydromagnetic Physics 04.8 Million Datacores 0,954 Billion ISK Quantum Physics 03.2 Million Datacores 0,492 Billion ISK Rocket Science
14.9 Million Datacores 2,612 Billion ISK Caldari Total
01.6 Million Datacores 0,282 Billion ISK Electromagnetic Physics 08.7 Million Datacores 1,661 Billion ISK Electronic Engineering 03.1 Million Datacores 0,301 Billion ISK Gallantean Starship Engineering 01.2 Million Datacores 0,261 Billion ISK Plasma Physics
14.6 Million Datacores 2,505 Billion ISK Gallente Total
17.1 Million Datacores 3,710 Billion ISK Mechanical Engineering 03.0 Million Datacores 0,619 Billion ISK Minmatar Starship Engineering 03.0 Million Datacores 0,639 Billion ISK Molecular Engineering 02.5 Million Datacores 0,549 Billion ISK Nuclear Physics
25.6 Million Datacores 5,517 Billion ISK Minmatar Total
The changes described in the blog will obviously have an affect on supply and demand, and the prices of datacores, so the numbers above could change significantly, but it's a guide. Mechanical Engineering datacores are clearly a special case due to their being used in all T2 ship invention as others have pointed out.
Also, it seems a little strange that Graviton Physics has been assigned to Amarr, since most current Graviton Physics R&D agents are Caldari (37 compared to just 1 Amarr agent, 3 if you include Ammatar agents), and items with graviton/gravimetric in the name have generally been associated with Caldari technology (graviton smartbombs, gravimetric sensors, graviton pulse generator component etc.)
I also agree that the LP payout formula for ship kills looks like it could potentially be exploitable at the moment, though that depends on how the terms in the formula are calculated, which isn't explained in the blog.
As Kusum Fawn said, if the 'Market Value' term for fitted and transported items is based on averages of actual market values, then it would be possible to pick some low value, rarely traded item, purchase all the available units in every region (not difficult for a cheap unpopular item), relist them all at massively inflated prices, wait for the new price to begin affecting the Market Average (perhaps trading the item a few times between alts), and then put the item on a ship in a rival faction and destroy it repeatedly to farm LP. If this kind of trick would require large amounts of ISK and organisation then it could perhaps be ignored, but if the formula applies to the market value of every item in the game then this would be trivially easy to do. The problem could be lessened by making the formula more opaque or introducing complicated terms to exclude outlier prices, but as long as the price is in some way tied to actual market values and covers a broad range of items, there will inevitably be holes in it and people will find a way to exploit them.
An alternative would be to tie the prices to fixed base values (though obviously this worked poorly with mineral prices and led to the insurance fraud problem), or to calculate the item's value not from the market price for the item itself but the average price of the materials it refines to or are required to manufacture it. Those materials (minerals, moon materials etc.) will tend to be more difficult to manipulate and easier to monitor for exploits. Exceptions could be made for NPC traded items such as skillbooks and blueprints, which could have values fixed at the NPC price.
If these problems can be resolved though, or even if cargo and fittings are excluded from the calculation and payouts are based entirely on insurance values, I think this formula should form the basis for the new bounty system and the mercenary contracts that have been discussed. The presentations in Reykjavik stressed a desire to encourage PvP and use of mercenaries with changes to the war system and new features, so with that in mind I'd allow players to take out public and private contracts on individuals, corporations or alliances that would establish a fixed pot of ISK in escrow to be paid out to mercenaries and bounty hunters for destroying targets based on this formula. The FW LP formula could fix the upper limit of payouts to prevent gaming the system, and contracts could allow the flexibility to offer rewards based on a percentage of that upper limit, and to include or exclude certain ship types or fittings/cargo. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1340
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 07:15:00 -
[224] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:However, I would expect to see agreements between traders managing large stockpiles of datacores and militias regarding controlled sov changes - have amarr win for one month (buy cheap amarr datacores, sell expensive minmatar ones) and then let minmatar win for the next (sell expensive amarr datacores, buy cheap minmatar ones), ....
Agreements? You mean like Burn Jita or the Oxytopes interdiction were 'agreements'?
How big is the Minmatar militia compared to Amarr? How much effort would be required to tip the scales back in Amarr's favour? I suspect all that would be needed is a few FCs with gumption. So you put your FCs in alts on either side. When Minmatar LP are worth too little you spend time on the Amarr side, watching the Minmatar fall apart because their FCs have disappeared. Then when the Amarr LP aren't worth so much you switch to Minmatar and steamroller them.
Gaming the rewards system will be trivially easy to any group interested in doing so. |
Himnos Altar
An Errant Venture
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 07:19:00 -
[225] - Quote
Cristl wrote:Forums, you can eat my posts but you will never take my freedom! Anyway:
Are you sure about the datacore changes? Tying them to factional warfare doesn't seem to fit with research to be honest, and datacore farming was touted as passive income from the start.
Why else would you grind those horrible standings, pay all that money in skillbooks and then take up months of skill training time if not to either invent for yourself or sell to other inventors. It's the whole point. The missions are as boring as hell and pay poorly - no one does it for anything other than passive income. Now that's deemed undesirable? And why would the militia get datacores, surely they should get faction shiny stuff instead?
From what I read, correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I read everyone who gets datacores now will STILL be able to get datacores post-Inferno. In fact, they serve as a baseline, keeping prices from going too deep into the gutter. So if a side has crapy LP towards datacores atm, it will actually be cheaper to get them from non-FW people. Am I reading that wrong or is everyone just missing that? |
Kaeda Maxwell
Black Rebel Rifter Club
89
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 07:29:00 -
[226] - Quote
Will Gallente pilots be rewarded for capturing Amarr plexes and vice versa? |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 07:30:00 -
[227] - Quote
Assuming that invention requirements aren't changing...
WTF with Winmatar getting Mech Eng?!?
Given how broadly those 'cores are used that pretty much gives everyone - including the 24th Crusade - reasons for wanting the Matari to win. |
Mike Whiite
Progressive State State Section 9
45
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 07:51:00 -
[228] - Quote
Hmm I think I lack the number of alts and play time to do anything with new FW.
Secondly I fear the small gang warfare will all but cease to exsist, amd FW will be reduced to a few choke points with massive gate camps on either side, that will bring in the need for capitals.
Or each faction will create corps of Priaters that will keep attacking faction pitlots untill it's safe to enter the system.
With faction Gatecamps in Highsec and not being able to dock in certain low sec area's I don't see any reason to keep participating in FW untill one has atleast one upraded alt.
I might be fun when you have one though.
|
Cosmoes
Peraka
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 07:52:00 -
[229] - Quote
Protheroe wrote:I agree that Mechanical Engineering datacores should be available in all factions' LP Stores. Here's a list of the total value of all datacores traded in The Forge (Jita) over the past year, sorted by the factions whose LP Stores they will be available in. Numbers are rounded to the nearest 100K datacores and billion ISK.
02.1 Million Datacores 0,147 Billion ISK Amarrian Starship Engineering 01.5 Million Datacores 0,180 Billion ISK Graviton Physics 02.7 Million Datacores 0,519 Billion ISK High Energy Physics 01.7 Million Datacores 0,364 Billion ISK Laser Physics 03.3 Million Datacores 0,820 Billion ISK Nanite Engineering
11.3 Million Datacores 2,030 Billion ISK Amarr Total
03.3 Million Datacores 0,217 Billion ISK Caldari Starship Engineering 03.6 Million Datacores 0,949 Billion ISK Hydromagnetic Physics 04.8 Million Datacores 0,954 Billion ISK Quantum Physics 03.2 Million Datacores 0,492 Billion ISK Rocket Science
14.9 Million Datacores 2,612 Billion ISK Caldari Total
01.6 Million Datacores 0,282 Billion ISK Electromagnetic Physics 08.7 Million Datacores 1,661 Billion ISK Electronic Engineering 03.1 Million Datacores 0,301 Billion ISK Gallantean Starship Engineering 01.2 Million Datacores 0,261 Billion ISK Plasma Physics
14.6 Million Datacores 2,505 Billion ISK Gallente Total
17.1 Million Datacores 3,710 Billion ISK Mechanical Engineering 03.0 Million Datacores 0,619 Billion ISK Minmatar Starship Engineering 03.0 Million Datacores 0,639 Billion ISK Molecular Engineering 02.5 Million Datacores 0,549 Billion ISK Nuclear Physics
25.6 Million Datacores 5,517 Billion ISK Minmatar Total
The changes described in the blog will obviously have an affect on supply and demand, and the prices of datacores, so the numbers above could change significantly, but it's a guide. Mechanical Engineering datacores are clearly a special case due to their being used in all T2 ship invention as others have pointed out.
*Snipped for space
While this is a massive advantage in minmatar datacore LP store you need to look at this as a whole of the LP store.
If we looked just at electronics (cpu upgrades, ew modules etc.) we would see the LP stores are massively out of balance. In a view of the total overall balance of LP stores is this gonna unbalance them further?
I don't think so (though this may not help the situation with gallente LP stores).
If we wanted the races to be perfectly even for datacores then we'd want all LP store item types to be equal for all races and I don't see that happening nor do I want to. |
Bad Messenger
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
134
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 07:56:00 -
[230] - Quote
CCP IS REALLY GOING TO IMPLEMENT THIS?
THIS DOES NOT IMPROVE FW AT ALL.
WHERE IS REASON TO DEFEND SYSTEMS?
NO LP FOR DEFENDING = NO REASON TO DEFEND => NO REASON TO PVP
DENYING DOCKING RIGHTS? NEUTRALS CAN STILL DOCK SO META GAMERS DOES NOT CARE.
THIS IS MAJOR BOOST FOR THOSE WHO LIKE TO USE ALT GRIEFING TACTICS BUT IT DOES NOT STILL GIVE ANY REASON TO FIGHT FOR SOV.
ONLY REASON TO PVP IS TO PREVENT YOUR OWN MILITIA TO COME IN YOUR PLEX TO SPLIT LP, SO WE CAN EXPECT MORE INTERNAL WARDECS OR PIRATING OR OPPOSING MILITIA ALT TACTICS.
I invented several cry extraction grief tactics in 5 minutes, what we can expect after serious planning? |
|
Cosmoes
Peraka
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 08:09:00 -
[231] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote: I invented several cry extraction grief tactics in 5 minutes, what we can expect after serious planning?
goonswarm joins caldari militia and camps their main systems for alt killing goodness and tears? |
Desmont McCallock
172
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 08:09:00 -
[232] - Quote
I just read the DevBlog and I have some concerns regarding the "Research agents and datacore changes". Getting rid of the field multiplier is a plus (as have been done in the past with Agent Quality). But charging a " small 10,000 ISK fee per datacore to ensure there is a small cost tied to their retrieval" has no meaning. Basic market tactics (even in RL) is to roll the increasing cost to the clients. Thus this will only lead to increasing datacores prices and datacore farming can keep on being passive.
Proposal: You want to make researching more active? Disrupt the datacore production in random times and make the Research Agent send a notification to the player, that his attention is needed and assign the player a task (you have this already implemented) in order for the datacore production to continue. This will make even me (a station trader) to hop on my ship and fly to the system where I have the Research in progress.
Just my .2 ISK |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
409
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 08:28:00 -
[233] - Quote
Maybe you should NOT be giving neutrals the industrial benefits that an upgraded IHup provides. Neutral entrepreneurs already benefit from FW by being given a market with willing customers and sale margins far beyond high sec prices. I know this from personal experience and have made good ISK in the Amarr/Minmatar conflict zone.
Being able to ignore docking restrictions is enough benefit for neutrals and the upgrade benefits should be reserved for those willing to take the additional risk of being a member of the militias. Of course, if you can leave and join the militias at will there is little point in restricting neutrals as they then can be neutral in space and join militia when needing to use the facilities.
Perhaps you should add faction standing requirements for neutrals to get the benefits? Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2339
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 08:31:00 -
[234] - Quote
raukhur wrote:PVP loyalty points obviously in the future need to be going to logistic pilots. I mean once the system with logistic pilots on killmails is in place, it needs to be part of the php LP formula too.
Bah, just throw a 280mm arty II on your Scimitar along with the three large reps, load tremor for nice range, and ***** away!
For Guardians, a flight of warrior II's will do the trick.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2339
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 08:33:00 -
[235] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:CCP IS REALLY GOING TO IMPLEMENT THIS?
THIS DOES NOT IMPROVE FW AT ALL.
WHERE IS REASON TO DEFEND SYSTEMS?
NO LP FOR DEFENDING = NO REASON TO DEFEND => NO REASON TO PVP
DENYING DOCKING RIGHTS? NEUTRALS CAN STILL DOCK SO META GAMERS DOES NOT CARE.
THIS IS MAJOR BOOST FOR THOSE WHO LIKE TO USE ALT GRIEFING TACTICS BUT IT DOES NOT STILL GIVE ANY REASON TO FIGHT FOR SOV.
ONLY REASON TO PVP IS TO PREVENT YOUR OWN MILITIA TO COME IN YOUR PLEX TO SPLIT LP, SO WE CAN EXPECT MORE INTERNAL WARDECS OR PIRATING OR OPPOSING MILITIA ALT TACTICS.
I invented several cry extraction grief tactics in 5 minutes, what we can expect after serious planning?
Working as intended. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Leslie e'Evob
Paramilitary Skanks
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 08:40:00 -
[236] - Quote
Oh yeah, datacores are currently free money, all right: I have 6 characters with 5 research agents each, each having to do 50+ jumps - some in lowsec - to exchange their RPs for DCs and then move them to areas where the buyers are, and with that, I don't make enough money to pay for even one of my 2 accounts.
If you want to balance DCs, how about changing agent locations around a bit? Caldqri R&D agents are in Caldari space, and naturally Minmatar R&D agents are also in Caldari space. Huh? |
Terrorfrodo
Deep Space Darwinian Law Enforcement Agency
63
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 08:53:00 -
[237] - Quote
Never done FW so far. My image of FW is that it's probably a bunch of inbred roleplaying types who have known each other for years and are probably weirdos, considering that they have insisted on doing something for years that every sane player GÇô and even themselves GÇô regard as broken and crappy.
Anyone care to challenge these totally speculative and unfounded assumptions? Winner of elections banned, runner-up demoted by rest of the body, the council controlled by the losers. CSM 7 is illegitimate, CCP should remember when dealing with them. Remember what players voted for. |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
237
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 09:19:00 -
[238] - Quote
I like most of the changes in the devblog, but what concerns me most is the inflation ccp is promoting.
They nerfed bots and drone poo. Good changes but T1 stuff is very expensive now. No change to Tech: T2 stuff if very expensive now. Major incursion nerf and T1 loot drop nerf: It's a lot harder to earn isk.
Conclusion: it's a lot harder to earn isk and you cna buy less with the isk you do earn. For me personnaly this does not encourage me to pvp. When I grind isk I do it to pay for my pvp-ships. Grinding is not fun and should be kept to a minimum.
I like most of the changes to FW, but CCP are changing way too much stuff in a very short time. Fix FW ! |
malaire
402
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 09:20:00 -
[239] - Quote
Romeo Amore wrote:Destroying a Machariel fitted with tech 2 mods: gained LP = (1.170m ISK GÇô 95m ISK + 40m ISK + 0 ) / 10000 = 111500 LP LP store offers will be 4x times more expensive as they are now, while at the highest tier, they will be 4 times as cheap. So in a faction doing well killing a single machariel is worth the equivalent of 4*111,500LP. That's 446,000LP. That's close to 5.5 times the payout for a level 5 mission. That's getting close to 2 navy battleships worth of LP in that single kill. I feel this goes a little too far So you expect global average market price of machariel to be 4x what it is now?
If that would really happen, I'd guess there would be much less players flying it and as a result also much less kills.
New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else |
Chanina
ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES Viking Empire
13
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 09:21:00 -
[240] - Quote
Good direction you are going there with FW but be careful with coupling in industries! Was mentioned many times before but the Mech Engi topic can't be stressed enough.
T2 production is already crippled and dependent on uncontrollable resources. Every single T2 Items needs technetium in on way or the other. And there is not the slightest chance to get your hands on that stuff until you are in a large bloc. If you now couple DCs to FW you should think about the demand problem first. Giving the Minmatar the Mech Engi DC as one and only supplier you give them an unfair advantage as the demand on those DCs is much higher than that of other DCs.
Doing so with the faction specific DCs is not a problem. If Amarr militia is weak, prices for laser DCs go up. If Caldari are on the loosing side Rails and Missiles will get more expensive. But if Minmatar get weak EVERY SINGEL T2 Ship and a lot of T2 Modules will get more expensive! That's not only just a bit out of scale it is far away from balanced.
If you do race specific things than stick to the race specific stuff. Take a look at your invention tables. If Caldari encryption is needed for this item those DCs should be available in Caldari LP store. Same for the other races. Of course this will lead to market overlapping but that's not a toxin! FW should have decent incomes so they can have there fun in killing each other. But they will have that income no matter if the other side can supply the same DCs. They already have the Benefit or Penalty of this 4 times higher or lower cost, respectively.
|
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Lost True
Paradise project
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 09:22:00 -
[241] - Quote
Lost True wrote:I'm deeply disapointed about the way you're get rid of R&D. Quote: A change mentioned during Fanfest concerns datacores and research agents in general. While we do acknowledge that initial the initial period to train up for high-level research agents take times, effort and money, we are not particularly fond of the passive datacore income in general. Indeed, once the initial requirements are met, this is not so much of an active profession and more of a passive collection of items, which we want to look at.
Did anyone here ever heard sucn words as investment or a passive income? Or there is only a working class? Anyway, why don't just lower an RP/Day?
Ok, let's calculate actual proffit of R&D Agents now on TQ.
For a Rocket Science Field - above average one.
And with all V skills and a good personal standings to an agent.
it's cost 50 RP per core, and there is a ~120 RP/day, one core costs now 200k ISK:
120/50*200k = 480k
With Skill at V i can run 6 of them:
480k*6 = 2880k = 2.88mil
Let's say i've done a big investment and had 3 chars with that skills and standings (thankfuly i'm not):
2.88mil * 3 = 8.64mil/day
Which is:
8.64mil*30days = 259.2mil per month
So clear proffit is:
259.2mil - 485mil(PLEX) = -255.8mil
Plus the time spend on market while selling it. It's a big one because of a trade bots, or it'll be something like a minus 350mil of proffit.
So where is this huge passive income from the R&D agents? It's a MINUS 255 millions ISK!
It's ALREADY not so proffitable thing.
Well, then remove all of R&D agents completely, and reimbus the skills, because no one will use this **** anyway. |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
237
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 09:25:00 -
[242] - Quote
Lost True wrote:Lost True wrote:I'm deeply disapointed about the way you're get rid of R&D. Quote: A change mentioned during Fanfest concerns datacores and research agents in general. While we do acknowledge that initial the initial period to train up for high-level research agents take times, effort and money, we are not particularly fond of the passive datacore income in general. Indeed, once the initial requirements are met, this is not so much of an active profession and more of a passive collection of items, which we want to look at.
Did anyone here ever heard sucn words as investment or a passive income? Or there is only a working class? Anyway, why don't just lower an RP/Day? Ok, let's calculate actual proffit of R&D Agents now on TQ. For a Rocket Science Field - above average one. And with all V skills and a good personal standings to an agent. it's cost 50 RP per core, and there is a ~120 RP/day, one core costs now 200k ISK: 120/50*200k = 480kWith Skill at V i can run 6 of them: 480k*6 = 2880k = 2.88milLet's say i've done a big investment and had 3 chars with that skills and standings (thankfuly i'm not): 2.88mil * 3 = 8.64mil/dayWhich is: 8.64mil*30days = 259.2mil per monthSo clear proffit is: 259.2mil - 485mil(PLEX) = -255.8milPlus the time spend on market while selling it. It's a big one because of a trade bots, or it'll be something like a minus 350mil of proffit. So where is this huge passive income from the R&D agents? It's a MINUS 255 millions ISK!It's ALREADY not so proffitable thing. Well, then remove all of R&D agents completely, and reimbus the skills, because no one will use this **** anyway.
^^ This
Also you have take the cost of the skillbooks into account some of the are expensive and it takes time to get that isk back. Datacores are not a very big income.
Fix FW ! |
Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet Bruderschaft der Pilger
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 09:29:00 -
[243] - Quote
I am extremely curious about how this works out, because I had some very negative experience with similar mechanisms in other games. Most prominently: Warhammer Online.
The game was an utter failure, because the endgame entirely relied on something like Factional Warfare. Basic problem: in a conflict with 2 sides, one side will get an advantage at some point and this could be simply a bigger number of players subcribing to that militia - maybe just because e.g. Gallente are the "coolest" faction atm.
The side with the more pilots is more likely to win fights and get rewarded - with cheaper LP stores etc.
Now 2 things are very likely to happen: a)Players on the losing side will lose interest in FW or change sides. Either because losing is to expensive or simply because losing does not make them feel good. b) And if new players enter FW, they are more likely to pick the dominant side. Maybe some players like the challenge or join a faction because they have no clue or they are hardcore RP people, but the winning side will alwas get more recruits. People LIKE cheap ships & LP stores!!!
So the dominance of the winning side will become bigger and bigger until after a while either Gallente OR caldari will own all the contested systems.
CCP states something about "diminishing returns", but as I said, I do really see this danger and I am curious how it works out.
Alternative scenario: If changing sides is possible without great cost, a kind of super-organization may arise (like the Incursion Fleet Corps) that keeps changing sides in order to play with the market prices. Join one faction, make them win, stockpile cheap stuff - then change sides and watch prices for your stockpiled stuff explode.
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S810 Jr
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 09:36:00 -
[244] - Quote
Not sure if it's been said yet, and I'll be damned if I'm reading 13 pages of emo posts on datacores to check.
The iHub LP buffer, if I'm reading that right it's only 50K LP, which means the enemy only needs to earn a total of 100,001 LP to knock off the level V. That is just 2x minors, 2x mediums, 2x majors.... REALLY!? All you'll have happening is people goto sleep, wake up and their iHub has no LP left in it because 1 guy with his alts decided to wipe it out.
We should at least be able to buffer it for 12hours worth of Outpost type spawns (they still 30mins after despawn or 1 hour now?) |
Kirikarasu
R3D SHIFT
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 09:41:00 -
[245] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Shar Tegral wrote:Don't know if it has been said already: Each faction should have access to Mechanical Engineering. We-¦re definitely keeping an eye on this development. As mentioned, this team will continue looking at FW after Inferno with the priority being 1: make changes to what we just shipped (potentially to ME datacores) and then 2: improving FW even more with new changes. If something doesn-¦t end up the way we like it, they-¦ll change it. Once it-¦s in a place where everything is how we want it to be, they-¦ll move on and do more new FW features. Winter is going to be pretty sweet.
I noticed in the handy dandy graph for the races and Data Cores that 3 of the 4 races have access to 4 Data Cores while the Amarr have access to 5. Perhaps you should add Mechanical Engineering to the other 3 races to make it fair. |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 10:15:00 -
[246] - Quote
I'd like to know if for Starship Engineering agents I have the choice of getting datacores for 150 RP now or 100 RP + 10k ISK later or if you will normalize the accumulated RPs in regards to multipliers come patch day.
Also to all people asking for skill reimbursements: HTFU! The research skills will work exactly the same afterwards. |
Lord Okinaba
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 10:32:00 -
[247] - Quote
Team Game of Drones aren't here to fix drones? |
Vyktor Abyss
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
139
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 10:44:00 -
[248] - Quote
A great blog, well presented information and I'm very glad you're going to iterate and keep a hand on the tiller, steering the good ship FW after deployment properly this time.
I've been around FW since the start and I'm quite excited by all these changes.
The best thing being the LP for PVP buff!
I do have a few questions and concerns though (much like everyone else):
1. System upgrades - Please give us a list of the upgrades possible, and roughly their order of value if it is 1-5. I'm all in favour of lower market taxes and more efficient manufacturing/research in lowsec.
2. Datacores - Please clarify if you are changing the existing method of collecting datacores from agents in various R&D corps more than just the multiplier and 10k base cost per datacore. Is FW a supplemental source of cores or will it be the sole source of cores after Inferno? Thanks. As other have mentioned, Mechanical Engineering is a rather tricky case putting them all in one militia LP store could end up in a bottleneck.
3. I have a concern about the upgrades applying neutrals. I appreciate the "get more people" doing industry in low sec is a good thing, but I am worried that major alliances and pirate groups will simply move in and have alts farm one system to fully upgraded so the pirate/large alliance that has nothing to do with 99% of FW can reap all the rewards.
4. System upgrades - Can you tell me what slots this creates, and if in a FW station with no research and manufacturing, you can now potentially upgrade it to have research and manufacturing? This would be awesome (but not unless you reserve some number of slots for FW characters only).
5. Non station FW systems - We need more reasons to upgrade these systems other just than some overall war 'tide' effect. Please consider a POS fuel reduction, cyno-jammers and perhaps some harvestable resource upgrade like booster gas clouds spawning there or something to add some 'life' and consequences to these systems too.
6. Please consider adding Mindlink Implants to FW LP stores. This would fit in quite well racially (even though being Gallente we'd get the crappiest one ). Potentially you could get Outer Ring Excavation loosely in on FW at some later date for the mining mindlink which would be rather cool.
All in all some fantastic changes and you're making FW much more dynamic, fun and have real consequences. I'm looking forward to how all this pans out. Cheers. |
Suek Thyben
Stoic Assembly Lines Trade Federation Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 10:52:00 -
[249] - Quote
How about lowering taxes on PI for militia members as the upgrades of systems go up? This would give smaller corps and gangs incetives to join and bring in industiral ships into the systems, which could create interesting PVP dynamic. It also should be easy to implement and it is allways noce to see systems interact together.
Also, it may reinvigorate market in contested space, as more neutrals will come to sell and buy PI goods (and its shame to make trip profitable only one way) |
Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D Defiant Legacy
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 10:59:00 -
[250] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:
But with that in mind, now, imagine a militia losing terribly to the point they lost most of their systems. What would push newcomers to go to the side of the losing faction ? I mean, except for the few people looking for challenge, most people in Eve think in terms of isk and advantages. I would bet that most of them will chose the winning side. [....] Another possible consequence of this is that a side might be winning for a very long time, making all the conflict in the area boring for everyone (lack of targets on one side and no fun on the other side).
Ok, you start by saying people will join the winning faction. Fine. But then you say joining that winning faction restricts the targets you have. Plus any rewards are shared between a lot more people. Surely they cancel each other out, to some degree?
Also, the more systems a faction controls, the more spread out the defenders will be (even if there are more). So taking systems back should be that bit easier.
No-one knows exactly what will happen. But that's the fun part. |
|
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 11:09:00 -
[251] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote:
The game was an utter failure, because the endgame entirely relied on something like Factional Warfare. Basic problem: in a conflict with 2 sides, one side will get an advantage at some point and this could be simply a bigger number of players subcribing to that militia - maybe just because e.g. Gallente are the "coolest" faction atm.
The side with the more pilots is more likely to win fights and get rewarded - with cheaper LP stores etc.
Now 2 things are very likely to happen: a)Players on the losing side will lose interest in FW or change sides. Either because losing is to expensive or simply because losing does not make them feel good. b) And if new players enter FW, they are more likely to pick the dominant side. Maybe some players like the challenge or join a faction because they have no clue or they are hardcore RP people, but the winning side will alwas get more recruits. People LIKE cheap ships & LP stores!!!
So the dominance of the winning side will become bigger and bigger until after a while either Gallente OR caldari will own all the contested systems.
I was lucky enough to wind up on the Darkside server for Warhammer Online , the only one that had somewhat equal factions (had alts on the others, they were game-killing like you said). However, the enemy could clearly outzerg(outblob) us for about 6-8 hours a day. The thing that kept us fighting through it was the underdog modifier which made it easier to flip maps 24 hours after a city seige.
Of course that wouldn't work in a sandbox game like EVE, but a modifier on the PvP kills LP for a losing faction would motivate them to fight, and could attract PvP corps to join their side instead of the lockouts warding them away.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 11:21:00 -
[252] - Quote
Axl Borlara wrote: Also, the more systems a faction controls, the more spread out the defenders will be (even if there are more). So taking systems back should be that bit easier.
You know how they are making DUST 514 "Eve-like" by having ways to modify your build on the fly? Well, the lockout takes all that away for the back systems. The defenders won't be spread out. They just have to be close to where their opponents can dock.
Something else: It was pretty cool the way CCP didn't have the warzones set up like a sports field. They were unbalanced from the start. Correct me if wrong, but isn't there quite a few more Minmatar sov systems than Amarr (not talking about occupancy, actual empire sov)? The Cal-Gal warzone is fairly even in regards to current empire sov, so much larger that a few systems difference doesn't matter percentage wise.
However, both the Minmatr and Gallente enjoy a lot more tactical hi sec entry points into their enemy's sov. If there were consequences from the start, I doubt the warzones would look the way they do. Which is why it amazes me they aren't adding an Amarr warzone constellation, putting in 1-2 more station in empty systems near Tama, and other things that would make the warzones better for what they are about to implement. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
SwissChris1
Battlestars S E D I T I O N
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 11:28:00 -
[253] - Quote
Love all BUT the datacore changes.....I farm my datacores once a year and the payout is **** for the amount of time and effort it took for my alt to get 5 level 4 research agents he could use. A noob account can train PI skills quickly and make MUCH more money than I can with research agents...making me pay per datacore now is just retarted |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 11:33:00 -
[254] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:6. Please consider adding Mindlink Implants to FW LP stores. This would fit in quite well racially (even though being Gallente we'd get the crappiest one ). Potentially you could get Outer Ring Excavation loosely in on FW at some later date for the mining mindlink which would be rather cool. 7. Plexes - Are you looking at changing any Plex mechanics? Specifically the gated predictable warp in point makes defending a plex much easier once you're in and set up. 8. NPCs - Are you rebalancing the NPCs of the different factions in plexes and missions with these changes? . 6. Ha! Dream on for the mining mindlink. That would be too much of an advantage. But I do like the idea for the combat mindlinks. Gallente would most likely end up with the info link. Suck it!
7. The plexes are untouched on SiSi. Thrasher takes down initial mob, orbits at 500, might as well be defensive plexing from then on.
8. Haven't seen a rebalancing. I may run a mission tonight but since the LP for the missions weren't changed last I checked, I doubt its been touched.
But yeah, I am also for a revamping of the npc's. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Winterbliss
E X C E P T I O N Persona Non Gratis
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 12:04:00 -
[255] - Quote
Very welcomed changes indeed, however in the FW presentation at Fanfest you emphasised on system upgrades and getting back in to the combat quickly. How come we can't have a discount at the repairshop if our ship warps out extremely damaged? I think that should be one of the perks at least. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
402
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 12:04:00 -
[256] - Quote
For everyone that's talking about changing sides:
You do know you have to have a positive standing with the faction to join their side for FW?
And doing FW plexes involves killing the opposing side's ships. Thus tanking your standing with them?
Changing side once you've been playing a while isn't as easy as you might think. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Tosh Lines
Omniscient Order
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 12:35:00 -
[257] - Quote
Is there any fixes for low sec pvp? particularly the small simple things that could be easily fixed but are pretty detrimental to the game. Like carrier/orca docking?
There's little point even trying to break low sec gatecamps when all they do is dock in an orca and have the clean orca jump through the gate. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
85
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 12:48:00 -
[258] - Quote
Since you apparently "forgot" to include a mechanism that would allow the much vaunted pendulum to swing back once a given militia has been knocked out (any one with half a brain can see its coming with these changes) how about this:
- Mech. Engineering available in the stores for the two militias who fares the worst .. ONLY. - LP store provides the planned discount and surcharge dependent on warzone control, for all items except datacores. - LP store discount/surcharge is reversed and doubled (to account for "winners" getting more LP for everything to begin with) for datacores.
That might be enough to balance the scales a bit, probably not enough though but since you have decided you gut FW completely you should have no problems prolonging the agony. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1966
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 13:33:00 -
[259] - Quote
I'd like to see the FW game penalize the losing faction(empire) some more without actually hitting those pilots fighting for the losing faction specifically.
For example, if a side loses its territory to represent the fact its losing the war I'd like to see transaction taxes going up in that faction's Hisec (faction high command clawing back some isk from hisec residents to fund the lowsec war).
Imagine just how exciting FW would get if the Caldari faction losing systems led to increased transaction taxes in Jita? Perhaps this could actually lead to the revitalization of other market hubs. Alternatively maybe the Jita bears would be more inclined to privately fund their miliita fighters to improve their transaction taxes.
This could be mapped on top of the new system pretty tidily I think.
Warzone control
1 terrible LP rewards - Emergency Transaction Tax Penalty in Empire Hisec 2 poor LP rewards -Increased Transaction Tax Penalty in Empire Hisec 3 Average LP rewards - Status Quo - Transaction Charges as Now 4 Good LP rewards - War Boon - Transaction Charges Reduced 5 excellent LP rewards - Victory Boon 0 Transaction Charges Reduced Significantly
The real payoff for this would be that the relative attractiveness of the 4 imperial trade hubs (jita, amarr, rens, dodixie) would change over time to reflect the result of faction warfare success and failure and stop being a static no-brainer as now.
One's faction getting hammered in FW will involve hisec players hoping to play the markets and trade their goods and hopefully encourage them to get involved.
Non faction war trade hubs (yulai, ammatar space etc) would have the virtue of stability without the immediate threat of bonus or penalty tariffs.
Consider this a proposal to spread the pain (and benefits) a little more widely and make the systems of Faction Warfare impact the rest of the server far more significantly than even FW 2.0 does.
Everyone in the known universe buys and sells from Jita (on alts if nothing else) - lets have the fortune's of the Jita market tied in some way to the fortunes of Caldari FW (and same for the other empires and hubs).
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Invictra Atreides
Toward the Terra
77
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 13:50:00 -
[260] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I must be missing what the driver for conflict is? It seemed like rewarding the winning side so heavily simply ensures that the best profit will be had by having everyone join the same faction... what am I missing?
-Liang From a markets prospective it means that the winning site gets rly cheap stuff and the opposite stuff gets expensive.
Would that mean that if I stock on items now and then go push for the opposite faction that my items will increase in value :D
Blog |-áTutorials | Youtube "I donGÇÖt know everything, I just know what I know." |
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1832
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 13:59:00 -
[261] - Quote
Maz3r Rakum wrote:Salicaz wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Thank you though, for keeping a positive attitude and for being willing to try something before judging it. Players like you should have a lot of fun in the days ahead, I wish everyone else felt the same.
CCP Guy> Hey guys, remember that broken feature we released years back called Faction Warfare? [Room erupts with howling laughter]. CCP Guy > [Wipes tear from eye after laughing so hard]. Lol! Iknorite! Well apparently some people still do it, no really they do! CCP Prat from meeting > Why haven't they left for null sec, our beloved end game vision? CCP Guy > I don't know, apparently they lived begrudgingly with the half arsed broken mess and.... CCP Prat from meeting > But why haven't they left for null sec, our beloved end game vision? CCP Guy > shrugs* CCP Prat from meeting > **** em, bring null sec to them then, lock them out of station. I can't believe they still do it lol! We even stopped adding news to the militia office window in Feb 2010. Let them have a helping prod into the direction that be null! [rapturous applaud from the rest of the meeting] CCP Guy > They're bound to complain, what should we say? CCP Prat from meeting > Nothing, just let that lovely Hans fellow from that gathering we invited, er, what are they called? CCP Guy > CSM? CCP Prat from meeting > Yeah them, get him to bang on about how good it really is for them.
Frankly, if you think this makes FW similar to Null Sec Sov battles, you have no idea what you are talking about. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
56
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 14:03:00 -
[262] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:I'd like to see the FW game penalize the losing faction(empire) some more without actually hitting those pilots fighting for the losing faction specifically.
For example, if a side loses its territory to represent the fact its losing the war I'd like to see transaction taxes going up in that faction's Hisec (faction high command clawing back some isk from hisec residents to fund the lowsec war).
Imagine just how exciting FW would get if the Caldari faction losing systems led to increased transaction taxes in Jita? Perhaps this could actually lead to the revitalization of other market hubs. Alternatively maybe the Jita bears would be more inclined to privately fund their miliita fighters to improve their transaction taxes.
This could be mapped on top of the new system pretty tidily I think.
Warzone control
1 terrible LP rewards - Emergency Transaction Tax Penalty in Empire Hisec 2 poor LP rewards -Increased Transaction Tax Penalty in Empire Hisec 3 Average LP rewards - Status Quo - Transaction Charges as Now 4 Good LP rewards - War Boon - Transaction Charges Reduced 5 excellent LP rewards - Victory Boon 0 Transaction Charges Reduced Significantly
The real payoff for this would be that the relative attractiveness of the 4 imperial trade hubs (jita, amarr, rens, dodixie) would change over time to reflect the result of faction warfare success and failure and stop being a static no-brainer as now.
One's faction getting hammered in FW will involve hisec players hoping to play the markets and trade their goods and hopefully encourage them to get involved.
Non faction war trade hubs (yulai, ammatar space etc) would have the virtue of stability without the immediate threat of bonus or penalty tariffs.
Consider this a proposal to spread the pain (and benefits) a little more widely and make the systems of Faction Warfare impact the rest of the server far more significantly than even FW 2.0 does.
Everyone in the known universe buys and sells from Jita (on alts if nothing else) - lets have the fortune's of the Jita market tied in some way to the fortunes of Caldari FW (and same for the other empires and hubs).
I like this idea, however the problem with lowering hisec transaction charges, means that Caldari navy will be in the best interests of most people to be winning.
I would propose a five tier plan that only has inflationary taxes while losing, so its in everyone's best interests to not be losing, which is a different thing,
stalemate in terms of war effort is also useful Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1832
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 14:42:00 -
[263] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Celebris Nexterra wrote:T'san Manaan wrote:Changes look good so far can't wait to see it go live. Just some thoughts I would like to see implemented in the future. 1. Missions go to the nearest "Contested" system to keep the mission farmers in the combat zone. 2. Benefits to P.I. and industry (I.E. faster manufacturing) for upgrading systems 3. captured stations use current Sov holder Agents. 4. station lockouts to include anyone with a negative faction standing or outlaw status. Other than that I like everything I see so far especially the no docking for your enemies I want to like this post, but I in no way support making life as a pirate even harder. I agree with station lockouts including those with negative faction status so that it (negative facstat) matters outside of highsec/FW. Also, there's no real reason to include outlaws anyway. It wouldn't matter to pirates b/c w/ the new crimewatch outlaws can buy officer and commander tags and up their standings.
Ahh, but the flip side to this may end up being the ability to set Faction standings to people. I would not be surprised if this Winter we see the ability to elect FW officials from the ranks of FW pilots.
If this happens I would hope they would be able to set standings for the Faction towards people outside of FW, for example that pesky gang of pirates that likes to interfere in your Factions business.
If this is the case I sincerely hope the station lock outs will include people that have been set to red standings by the Faction. This gives a tangible benefit to those people that wish to work with the various Factions without necessarily joining. In fact, if a Pirate group picked on one Faction exclusively they would be given blue (or at least retain neutral) status with the other faction... in essence becoming somethin akin to the classic "Privateer" organization.
That could be taken one step futher, and non FW organizations that manage to get actual blue status from a Faction might be able to receive other benefits from friendly FW stations... thus cementing support. I could easily see the increased production slots, reduced costs benefits, etc. that neutrals will soon enjoy eventually being restricted to those with blue status to a particular Faction in the future.
This would add a whole new dynamic to FW and make it far more relevant to the EVE general population. All it needs to happen is the ability to elect officers with the power to set standings towards others for their Faction. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 14:48:00 -
[264] - Quote
The idea of locking people out of stations is interesting. But why not turn it into an ISK sink and charge a docking fee instead? Don't make it a trivial fee either. Something along the lines of Max(Standing * -1000000, 1000000). That way, you can if you need to, but you think a little about doing it often. And it gets ISK out of the economy. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1832
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 14:51:00 -
[265] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Kusum Fawn wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:Orisa Medeem wrote:Two comments about the changes: Quote:[Given LP] = ([Market value of target ship] - [Max. Insurance market value] + [Fitted mods, rigs and subsystem market value] + [Transported items market value]) / 10000 Please take dropped items into consideration in that formula. They should either pay half compared to the destroyed ones, or nothing at all. This is important to prevent exploiting it. If you're carrying 100,000,000 ISK in loot, the EV of the drop is 50 mil ISK, and the person killing you gets 10,000 LP from it. If you were trying to abuse it, you'd be hard pressed to make more than 50 mil ISK off of 10k LP. with the ship LP changes, it makes a lot of sense for FW players to keep abnormally high ship costs in the regions that are contested while alt shipping in ships to be put on contracts for either side to purchase. Because it is now in the best interests for both factions to keep market prices high, they will no longer compete for cheap ships for their own militas on the open market. but rather through contracts which are not counted in the LP price index for ships/fittings. Destroying a Punisher with tech 1 fitting: gained LP = (450k ISK GÇô 312k ISK + 100k ISK + 0) / 10000 = around 24 LP (previous system would have paid 25 LP) now fit that punisher with a market manipulated module, Republic Fleet Thermic plating est cost 100k isk, set price on Placid market 100 million isk, In heavy sov upgrades system market cost cheaper, it currently costs me (a nonFW player but with good regional faction standings) approx 1 million to place module on the market, with no buy orders or competing modules market price is now 100 million for a cheap module. Destroying a punisher with tech 1 fitting:gained LP =(450k isk - 312k isk + 100 million isk +0)/1000 = 100,138 LP (overheat a lowslot mod for a few seconds to encourage the item being destroyed) Punisher has 4 lowslots, add four of those modules. now make that module worth one billion, or ten billion .... I would hope that CCP is smart enough to
- Make the used prices be a global average
- Use Sell orders, not Buy orders to price them
- Make it delayed by an unspecified amount of time
- Average price changes on a smoothed running aveage curve
If they didn't, then yeah, this is going to turn out into a horrible, horrible gaming of the system.
They will be using the price averaging mechanic they will introduce at the same time, which takes a global average of the price over the last two weeks. If something is only available via contracts it looks at the components neccessary to build that item to derive it's value. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
56
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 14:55:00 -
[266] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:
They will be using the price averaging mechanic they will introduce at the same time, which takes a global average of the price over the last two weeks. If something is only available via contracts it looks at the components neccessary to build that item to derive it's value.
if it only takes two weeks to form the market average, then have i got some deals and plans for you FW people Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time. |
Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
645
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:02:00 -
[267] - Quote
Seeing as people are posting in caps about how there will be consequences of failure/actions and lesser passive income but more rewards for actual work I think we are heading the fight way folks!
BTW:
Neo Gabriel wrote:HERE COMES INFERO, HERALDING A NEW AGE OF LOWSEC PIRACY While I don't agree with the above characters post of ranting and madness I do like his idea of an *endgame*.
And this just sounds nice:
Jade Constantine wrote:I'd like to see the FW game penalize the losing faction(empire) some more without actually hitting those pilots fighting for the losing faction specifically.
For example, if a side loses its territory to represent the fact its losing the war I'd like to see transaction taxes going up in that faction's Hisec (faction high command clawing back some isk from hisec residents to fund the lowsec war).
Imagine just how exciting FW would get if the Caldari faction losing systems led to increased transaction taxes in Jita? Perhaps this could actually lead to the revitalization of other market hubs. Alternatively maybe the Jita bears would be more inclined to privately fund their miliita fighters to improve their transaction taxes.
This could be mapped on top of the new system pretty tidily I think.
Warzone control
1 terrible LP rewards - Emergency Transaction Tax Penalty in Empire Hisec 2 poor LP rewards -Increased Transaction Tax Penalty in Empire Hisec 3 Average LP rewards - Status Quo - Transaction Charges as Now 4 Good LP rewards - War Boon - Transaction Charges Reduced 5 excellent LP rewards - Victory Boon 0 Transaction Charges Reduced Significantly
The real payoff for this would be that the relative attractiveness of the 4 imperial trade hubs (jita, amarr, rens, dodixie) would change over time to reflect the result of faction warfare success and failure and stop being a static no-brainer as now.
One's faction getting hammered in FW will involve hisec players hoping to play the markets and trade their goods and hopefully encourage them to get involved.
Non faction war trade hubs (yulai, ammatar space etc) would have the virtue of stability without the immediate threat of bonus or penalty tariffs.
Consider this a proposal to spread the pain (and benefits) a little more widely and make the systems of Faction Warfare impact the rest of the server far more significantly than even FW 2.0 does.
Everyone in the known universe buys and sells from Jita (on alts if nothing else) - lets have the fortune's of the Jita market tied in some way to the fortunes of Caldari FW (and same for the other empires and hubs).
- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
Sarinat Talen
Celestial Arms Manufacturing and Operations New Eden Research.
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:16:00 -
[268] - Quote
The major problem with datacores is not getting rid of the passive income (which is overstated), it is putting them in FW instead of adding them to R&D corp LP stores, where the people who have been running missions for these corps already to get them can. This is purely a move to cross populate areas of the game to make CCPs failed mechanic of FW work, instead of simply fixing FW and letting people try it. They are smacking R&D players in the face by devaluing all their work, as opposed to rewarding them for it. All the people celebrating will get their turn soon enough when the area of the game they have put work into gets the rug pulled from under it. This is poor game design and a punishment to players for CCPs mistakes.
The old CCP is still here. Don't be fooled. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
864
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:16:00 -
[269] - Quote
The changes are (at best) meaningless without NPC rebalancing.
If you make plexing a source of income and have it so that one faction's plexes easier to capture than their opponent's, you have a recipe for disaster. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Mikal Morataya
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:19:00 -
[270] - Quote
Look like I might take a look at some point in FW. The changes look interesting.
The datacore thing seems odd, if CCP don't want passive income from it can we get our SP in R&D back please to invest somewhere else, like more PvP related skills for FW. |
|
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
864
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:29:00 -
[271] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ahh, but the flip side to this may end up being the ability to set Faction standings to people. I would not be surprised if this Winter we see the ability to elect FW officials from the ranks of FW pilots.
If this happens I would hope they would be able to set standings for the Faction towards people outside of FW, for example that pesky gang of pirates that likes to interfere in your Factions business.
If this is the case I sincerely hope the station lock outs will include people that have been set to red standings by the Faction. This gives a tangible benefit to those people that wish to work with the various Factions without necessarily joining. In fact, if a Pirate group picked on one Faction exclusively they would be given blue (or at least retain neutral) status with the other faction... in essence becoming somethin akin to the classic "Privateer" organization.
Having elected player officials would be a disaster unless you find the prospect of all four militias being run by Goon alts amusing.
A better option would be to give neutrals who shoot at militia pilots an automatic standings hit.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1832
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 16:17:00 -
[272] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:I'd like to see the FW game penalize the losing faction(empire) some more without actually hitting those pilots fighting for the losing faction specifically.
For example, if a side loses its territory to represent the fact its losing the war I'd like to see transaction taxes going up in that faction's Hisec (faction high command clawing back some isk from hisec residents to fund the lowsec war).
Imagine just how exciting FW would get if the Caldari faction losing systems led to increased transaction taxes in Jita? Perhaps this could actually lead to the revitalization of other market hubs. Alternatively maybe the Jita bears would be more inclined to privately fund their miliita fighters to improve their transaction taxes.
This could be mapped on top of the new system pretty tidily I think.
Warzone control
1 terrible LP rewards - Emergency Transaction Tax Penalty in Empire Hisec 2 poor LP rewards -Increased Transaction Tax Penalty in Empire Hisec 3 Average LP rewards - Status Quo - Transaction Charges as Now 4 Good LP rewards - War Boon - Transaction Charges Reduced 5 excellent LP rewards - Victory Boon 0 Transaction Charges Reduced Significantly
The real payoff for this would be that the relative attractiveness of the 4 imperial trade hubs (jita, amarr, rens, dodixie) would change over time to reflect the result of faction warfare success and failure and stop being a static no-brainer as now.
One's faction getting hammered in FW will involve hisec players hoping to play the markets and trade their goods and hopefully encourage them to get involved.
Non faction war trade hubs (yulai, ammatar space etc) would have the virtue of stability without the immediate threat of bonus or penalty tariffs.
Consider this a proposal to spread the pain (and benefits) a little more widely and make the systems of Faction Warfare impact the rest of the server far more significantly than even FW 2.0 does.
Everyone in the known universe buys and sells from Jita (on alts if nothing else) - lets have the fortune's of the Jita market tied in some way to the fortunes of Caldari FW (and same for the other empires and hubs).
This is actually a very, very good idea. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1970
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 16:23:00 -
[273] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:I'd like to see the FW game penalize the losing faction(empire) some more without actually hitting those pilots fighting for the losing faction specifically.
For example, if a side loses its territory to represent the fact its losing the war I'd like to see transaction taxes going up in that faction's Hisec (faction high command clawing back some isk from hisec residents to fund the lowsec war).
Imagine just how exciting FW would get if the Caldari faction losing systems led to increased transaction taxes in Jita? Perhaps this could actually lead to the revitalization of other market hubs. Alternatively maybe the Jita bears would be more inclined to privately fund their miliita fighters to improve their transaction taxes.
This could be mapped on top of the new system pretty tidily I think.
Warzone control
1 terrible LP rewards - Emergency Transaction Tax Penalty in Empire Hisec 2 poor LP rewards -Increased Transaction Tax Penalty in Empire Hisec 3 Average LP rewards - Status Quo - Transaction Charges as Now 4 Good LP rewards - War Boon - Transaction Charges Reduced 5 excellent LP rewards - Victory Boon 0 Transaction Charges Reduced Significantly
The real payoff for this would be that the relative attractiveness of the 4 imperial trade hubs (jita, amarr, rens, dodixie) would change over time to reflect the result of faction warfare success and failure and stop being a static no-brainer as now.
One's faction getting hammered in FW will involve hisec players hoping to play the markets and trade their goods and hopefully encourage them to get involved.
Non faction war trade hubs (yulai, ammatar space etc) would have the virtue of stability without the immediate threat of bonus or penalty tariffs.
Consider this a proposal to spread the pain (and benefits) a little more widely and make the systems of Faction Warfare impact the rest of the server far more significantly than even FW 2.0 does.
Everyone in the known universe buys and sells from Jita (on alts if nothing else) - lets have the fortune's of the Jita market tied in some way to the fortunes of Caldari FW (and same for the other empires and hubs).
I like this idea, however the problem with lowering hisec transaction charges, means that Caldari navy will be in the best interests of most people to be winning. I would propose a five tier plan that only has inflationary taxes while losing, so its in everyone's best interests to not be losing, which is a different thing, stalemate in terms of war effort is also useful
Yeah that can work too. The non-faction war hisec faction centers (yulai, ammatar) will be the stable obtions and the FW-tied hubs can only get worse (if their side does worse) - + of course have lowsec hubs getting a boost in comparison to hisec ones.
I think tying a system into the 5 levels of warzone control stands the greatest chance of implementation from CCP on programming overhead. Question is does the current game support the inclusion of some variable transaction tax code based on sovereignty (hisec) status.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1832
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 16:24:00 -
[274] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:
Ahh, but the flip side to this may end up being the ability to set Faction standings to people. I would not be surprised if this Winter we see the ability to elect FW officials from the ranks of FW pilots.
If this happens I would hope they would be able to set standings for the Faction towards people outside of FW, for example that pesky gang of pirates that likes to interfere in your Factions business.
If this is the case I sincerely hope the station lock outs will include people that have been set to red standings by the Faction. This gives a tangible benefit to those people that wish to work with the various Factions without necessarily joining. In fact, if a Pirate group picked on one Faction exclusively they would be given blue (or at least retain neutral) status with the other faction... in essence becoming somethin akin to the classic "Privateer" organization.
Having elected player officials would be a disaster unless you find the prospect of all four militias being run by Goon alts amusing. A better option would be to give neutrals who shoot at militia pilots an automatic standings hit.
You actually think the Goons would waste an alt to control FW?
Consider something else, having elected Faction officials opens to door to other options as well... including the ability to kick FW members or corps suspected of being spies or of simply farming the system.
At that point, if you can't police your own you deserve whatever you get. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 16:35:00 -
[275] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:You actually think the Goons would waste an alt to control FW? Consider something else, having elected Faction officials opens to door to other options as well... including the ability to kick FW members or corps suspected of being spies or of simply farming the system. At that point, if you can't police your own you deserve whatever you get.
if goons can figure out how to make it easier isk generation then incursions, yes, they will do it.
it also leaves open the door to BOB style meltdowns, something which to a certain extent wouldn't happen in a milita setting.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1834
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 16:55:00 -
[276] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:You actually think the Goons would waste an alt to control FW? Consider something else, having elected Faction officials opens to door to other options as well... including the ability to kick FW members or corps suspected of being spies or of simply farming the system. At that point, if you can't police your own you deserve whatever you get. if goons can figure out how to make it easier isk generation then incursions, yes, they will do it. it also leaves open the door to BOB style meltdowns, something which to a certain extent wouldn't happen in a milita setting.
Compared to their other sources of income Data Cores are completely insignificant.
Perhaps you could be more specific in what you mean by a "BOB style meltdown".
Do you really feel the only way FW can succeed is to have as little control as possible in the hands of the players? Corporations and Alliances have managed to take care of running themselves just fine since the game went gold without CCP wet nursing them. I see no reason why FW pilots should be considered so incompetent that they cannot do the same.
Whatever the mechanics involved, there would have to be a mechanism in place to call a vote of no confidence and have another election if someone were badly dropping the ball.... since in a normal corp/alliance they could simply disband (which obviously Factions cannot do). When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
|
CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
559
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 17:10:00 -
[277] - Quote
Hey people, here are some answers for you.
* DO YOU CONSIDER DIMINISHING RETURNS FOR TAKING SPACE? Yes, as mentioned in the Dev Blog, we will possibly consider some ways of make it more difficult for one side to just take everything with ease - we could for example increase VPs to take additional systems, or use NPCs to assist an outmatched faction. Again, nothing is set in stone as this stage as we want to iterate on FW next release as well.
* WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS OF TAKING SOVEREIGNTY? At the moment the Sovereignty changes are quite cosmetic sadly. However in the long run, we would really like Sovereignty to actually have an implication on the solar system as a whole (police / navy NPCs, stations, sentry guns etc...). That's the whole point after all, your faction conquered enemy space, and to the victor goes the spoils.
* NO CHANGES TO FACTION NAVY / NPCS? Not for now, we ran out of time for Inferno. But we really want to have a look at the various NPCs next release. We will start with FW complex NPCs, then possibly have a look at mission and navy NPCs as well. We would like to redirect you to this thread if you want to help us fix them.
* COMPLEX CAPTURE AND I-HUB STORED LP: you should still get LPs from capturing a complex even if the I-hub in the solar system has none. You get no LP for defending though. The way it works is: you gain 10,000 LPs from a minor site, 5,000 are taken from the enemy I-hub, if it had any LP stored in the first place.
* LP STORE PRICE FLUCTUATION IS HUGE, THIS IS MADNESS! We do realize a 16x multiplier to be quite high, which is why we will keep looking at this situation and change it if need be.
* DO YOU PLAN TO TWEAK LP STORE OFFERS? Yes, although not sure when, we definitely want to tweak this, make sure each separate faction has a different and interesting LP store in the first place. That includes revamping existing offers and creating new ones.
* WHAT ABOUT CYNO JAMMERS? The idea was postponed after the feedback we received at Fanfest / forums. It's not out though, but initial discussions showed us that if there is one feature we need to carefully tread with, it's that one as it impacts a -lot- of third party players as well.
* ARE FW COMPLEXES GOING TO BE LOOKED AT? Yes, we want to iterate at them, by changing the NPCs, and possibly restricting pirate ships from entering the small ones (pirate as in Dramiel, Cynabal ships, not pirate players ). The power gap between pirate and tech 1 hulls is just too great for a feature that is supposed to be friendly to new / casual players. However, we would still want navy ships to be able to go in, since you get them from the FW LP stores, it would promote a good incentive to spend LPs there.
* THE DATACORES, IT'S OVER 9000?! Good point regarding mechanical engineering datacores, we will most likely spread this type out to all factions before release. Regarding the change itself, we will not actively adjust the RP amounts you have prior or after release. Which means players cashing in datacores that were worth 150 RP for 100 RP after release will get an advantage. Since the field multipliers are being removed, this change also means players will receive them slower, for 100 and 150 RP fields. But, since all of them now require 100 RP to be exchanged, it will be pretty balanced in the long run. R&D skills will unfortunately not be reimbursed as this profession is not going away - it will most likely be looked into and changed into a more active state separately in the future not to abandon players that invested time and effort into it.
* WHO DROPS THE INFRASTRUCTURE HUB? No one; it is the nothing more than the old NPC control bunker that is being renamed, and as such, doesn't require logistic effort from anyone to be placed. There is also no need to remove all the LP out of it before it can be captured; all LP will automatically be wiped out when captured by the enemy faction.
* ARE THERE ANY REWARDS FOR PODDING SOMEONE? Not at the moment
* DO YOU GUYS PLAN TO ITERATE ON SYSTEM UPGRADES? Yes, as stated in the blog, we acknowledge current upgrades can be improved by a fair margin - we already received feedback and ideas coming from the CSM / community, and we would like to redirect you to this thread if you have suggestions.
* DO YOU HAVE PLANS ON IMPROVING THE LP STORE INTERFACE? Oh yes, my precious, we do yes, we do. We absolutely despise its terrible, horrible current state.
* WILL GALLENTE PILOTS BE REWARDED FOR CAPTURING AMARR PLEXES AND VICE-VERSA: yes, allied factions have been thought of, thus, a Gallente pilot capturing an Amarr FW complex, or a Caldari pilot capturing a Minmatar complex will get paid in their respective militia LP store for instance. Please note allied factions aren't paid for capturing Infrastructure Hubs however, as they can't shoot it in the first place.
Hope that helps! |
|
|
CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
936
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 17:13:00 -
[278] - Quote
* DO WE USE CAPS FOR HEADLINES? Yell yes |
|
|
CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
559
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 17:16:00 -
[279] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:* DO WE USE CAPS FOR HEADLINES? Yell yes
Screw you, get out of here, they are mine, mine, my own! You can't have them, no, you can't, my property, MINE. |
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1971
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 17:35:00 -
[280] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, here are some answers for you. * DO YOU CONSIDER DIMINISHING RETURNS FOR TAKING SPACE? Yes, as mentioned in the Dev Blog, we will possibly consider some ways of make it more difficult for one side to just take everything with ease - we could for example increase VPs to take additional systems, or use NPCs to assist an outmatched faction. Again, nothing is set in stone as this stage as we want to iterate on FW next release as well. * WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS OF TAKING SOVEREIGNTY? At the moment the Sovereignty changes are quite cosmetic sadly. However in the long run, we would really like Sovereignty to actually have an implication on the solar system as a whole (police / navy NPCs, stations, sentry guns etc...). That's the whole point after all, your faction conquered enemy space, and to the victor goes the spoils. * NO CHANGES TO FACTION NAVY / NPCS? Not for now, we ran out of time for Inferno. But we really want to have a look at the various NPCs next release. We will start with FW complex NPCs, then possibly have a look at mission and navy NPCs as well. We would like to redirect you to this thread if you want to help us fix them. * COMPLEX CAPTURE AND I-HUB STORED LP: you should still get LPs from capturing a complex even if the I-hub in the solar system has none. You get no LP for defending though. The way it works is: you gain 10,000 LPs from a minor site, 5,000 are taken from the enemy I-hub, if it had any LP stored in the first place. * LP STORE PRICE FLUCTUATION IS HUGE, THIS IS MADNESS! We do realize a 16x multiplier to be quite high, which is why we will keep looking at this situation and change it if need be. * DO YOU PLAN TO TWEAK LP STORE OFFERS? Yes, although not sure when, we definitely want to tweak this, make sure each separate faction has a different and interesting LP store in the first place. That includes revamping existing offers and creating new ones. * WHAT ABOUT CYNO JAMMERS? The idea was postponed after the feedback we received at Fanfest / forums. It's not out though, but initial discussions showed us that if there is one feature we need to carefully tread with, it's that one as it impacts a -lot- of third party players as well. * ARE FW COMPLEXES GOING TO BE LOOKED AT? Yes, we want to iterate at them, by changing the NPCs, and possibly restricting pirate ships from entering the small ones (pirate as in Dramiel, Cynabal ships, not pirate players ). The power gap between pirate and tech 1 hulls is just too great for a feature that is supposed to be friendly to new / casual players. However, we would still want navy ships to be able to go in, since you get them from the FW LP stores, it would promote a good incentive to spend LPs there. * THE DATACORES, IT'S OVER 9000?! Good point regarding mechanical engineering datacores, we will most likely spread this type out to all factions before release. Regarding the change itself, we will not actively adjust the RP amounts you have prior or after release. Which means players cashing in datacores that were worth 150 RP for 100 RP after release will get an advantage. Since the field multipliers are being removed, this change also means players will receive them slower, for 100 and 150 RP fields. But, since all of them now require 100 RP to be exchanged, it will be pretty balanced in the long run. R&D skills will unfortunately not be reimbursed as this profession is not going away - it will most likely be looked into and changed into a more active state separately in the future not to abandon players that invested time and effort into it. * WHO DROPS THE INFRASTRUCTURE HUB? No one; it is the nothing more than the old NPC control bunker that is being renamed, and as such, doesn't require logistic effort from anyone to be placed. There is also no need to remove all the LP out of it before it can be captured; all LP will automatically be wiped out when captured by the enemy faction. * ARE THERE ANY REWARDS FOR PODDING SOMEONE? Not at the moment * DO YOU GUYS PLAN TO ITERATE ON SYSTEM UPGRADES? Yes, as stated in the blog, we acknowledge current upgrades can be improved by a fair margin - we already received feedback and ideas coming from the CSM / community, and we would like to redirect you to this thread if you have suggestions. * DO YOU HAVE PLANS ON IMPROVING THE LP STORE INTERFACE? Oh yes, my precious, we do yes, we do. We absolutely despise its terrible, horrible current state. * WILL GALLENTE PILOTS BE REWARDED FOR CAPTURING AMARR PLEXES AND VICE-VERSA: yes, allied factions have been thought of, thus, a Gallente pilot capturing an Amarr FW complex, or a Caldari pilot capturing a Minmatar complex will get paid in their respective militia LP store for instance. Please note allied factions aren't paid for capturing Infrastructure Hubs however, as they can't shoot it in the first place. Hope that helps!
Good answers thanks ... what do you think about the suggestion I made on the previous page about warzone control level (1-5) being used to calculate a modifier to general transaction tax for everyone using that empire's hisec stations? (basically to make EVERYONE suffer a bit if a given empire is losing FW badly)
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2346
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 17:39:00 -
[281] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:* DO WE USE CAPS FOR HEADLINES? Yell yes Screw you, get out of here, they are mine, mine, my own! You can't have them, no, you can't, my property, MINE.
I don't give two drakes whether you capitalize or not as long as you keep dishing out the juicy details on what we'll be working on next !!
Thank you, gentlemen, for all your hard work and for bringing everyone up to speed.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Grady Eltoren
Aviation Professionals for EVE
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 17:43:00 -
[282] - Quote
Leslie e'Evob wrote:Oh yeah, datacores are currently free money, all right: I have 6 characters with 5 research agents each, each having to do 50+ jumps - some in lowsec - to exchange their RPs for DCs and then move them to areas where the buyers are, and with that, I don't make enough money to pay for even one of my 2 accounts.
If you want to balance DCs, how about changing agent locations around a bit? Caldqri R&D agents are in Caldari space, and naturally Minmatar R&D agents are also in Caldari space. Huh?
EXACTLY.
I don't "farm" that much but I am pissed at CCP's take on this situation and it completely rings true of their past mistakes and the reason we BURNED JITA. You guys seem REALLY OUT OF TOUCH HERE.
TO THE CCP DEVS/GAME OF DRONES:
WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING TO RP RESEARCH?
Just consider this, I like many, started EVE as a scientist and industrialist. THAT IS WHAT GRADY IS. I started out thinking wow - how cool. I was proud of this...then about two years and multiple skills later into my playing I realized how stupid a decision it was and I just hung onto hope you might fix it someday because I had invested so much into it. You started to fix things with the elimination of Meta 1 loot from wrecks. We can now build and sell those for a living. All those BPOs have meaning now.
You started too fix industry removing drone mins. Shooting for minerals is stupid.
You started fixing Moon mins by saying they will be spread out all over 0.0 soon.
But now you are making the broken production of T2 loot worse which comprises a major part of the game.
WHERE IS THE LOVE FOR SCIENCE and BUILDERS/INVENTORS?
T2 production even more than before will be broken by your changes to RP and what I am sure is more of a ramrod coming that we are not even seeing. You wanna do something bold - remove T2 BPOs or limit them somehow.
Invention is hardly anything to be proud of. To make a profit using it you have to find that RARE market and watch it like a hawk and move ships all over the place. It is ridiculous. They should call the industry/science line the "SPREADSHEET WARRIOR/LOGISTICS WARRIOR/MARKET WARRIOR" because that is what you have to do to make any sort of profit off data core "FARMING". You guys are out of touch with your own game.
Why can't building/inventing be its' own entity I ask you??? As it is I had to train and do all the above extra bull$#%# and I sucked it up. Then now you are making my chosen profession even less valuable with the RP changes.
Like someone else said - You just made Datacores into Shooting things for Datacores like Drone shooting was for mining! WTF???
Why can't you FIX SOMETHING instead of patchwork breaking it like you guys have been known to do for years??
Furthermore, where is the love for Science??? Science toons are an embarressment these days! GO LOOK at the Character Bazaar on the forums for evidence of this!
TRUST ME - I GET THAT EVE IS ABOUT CONFLICT - but there are some of us that just like to be the nerds in EVE.
WHY CAN'T YOU MAKE SCIENTISTS A VALID PROFESSION LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE?
Why can't we make data core "farming" a profession (not through running missions and certainly not by shooting stuff) but by making mini games out of it or making ALL that TIME I trained into SCIENCE WORTH SOMETHING!??? This would be awesome in some incarnation. Then your scientists and inventors get hunted for their profession instead of relegated to something stupid and minor like a dedicated salvaging alt.
It just is not "fair" to have so much invested in skill training for such LITTLE reward.
I WANT AN ANSWER FROM THE DEV's that they actually have read these posts on here saying pretty much the same thing and they realize that the players are valuable like you preach you do but ACT THE OPPOSITE.
This isn't just about RP whining - i don't care that much about it in the grand scheme of things - but quit nerfing things instead of fixing them like the OLD CCP we were ALL TOLD WAS GONE.
TEAM GAME OF THRONES JUST LOST A LOT OF RESPECT FROM ME and this coming from their welcomed post about their Inventory changes. :(
Peace out - Grady |
S810 Jr
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 17:46:00 -
[283] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, here are some answers for you. *Stuffs*
iHub LP buffer amount ? Isn't 50K (100K earned plexing) a little too low? |
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 17:48:00 -
[284] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, here are some answers for you. * THE DATACORES, IT'S OVER 9000?! Good point regarding mechanical engineering datacores, we will most likely spread this type out to all factions before release. Regarding the change itself, we will not actively adjust the RP amounts you have prior or after release. Which means players cashing in datacores that were worth 150 RP for 100 RP after release will get an advantage. Since the field multipliers are being removed, this change also means players will receive them slower, for 100 and 150 RP fields. But, since all of them now require 100 RP to be exchanged, it will be pretty balanced in the long run. R&D skills will unfortunately not be reimbursed as this profession is not going away - it will most likely be looked into and changed into a more active state separately in the future not to abandon players that invested time and effort into it. Hope that helps!
No, it does not!
What have datacores to do with factional warfare? - Nothing! Why should datacores have to do something with factional warefare? - No, idea! Did you consider the gain in profit for owners of T2 BPO? - I don't think so.
So, I would be interested in data (not statistics, I only trust the statistics that I faked myself) How much can you make out of datacore farming? Why should it be bad, that it is passive? - Maybe because it reduces the price of datacores, hence the T2 BPO owners do make less profit!
|
Grady Eltoren
Aviation Professionals for EVE
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 17:56:00 -
[285] - Quote
Suek Thyben wrote:How about lowering taxes on PI for militia members as the upgrades of systems go up? This would give smaller corps and gangs incetives to join and bring in industiral ships into the systems, which could create interesting PVP dynamic. It also should be easy to implement and it is allways noce to see systems interact together.
Also, it may reinvigorate market in contested space, as more neutrals will come to sell and buy PI goods (and its shame to make trip profitable only one way)
+1 - I like this idea.
It will help make low sec even more attractive by encouraging more PI there.
|
Cromwell Savage
The Rock Hard Roosters Villore Accords
60
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 17:57:00 -
[286] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: * WHAT ABOUT CYNO JAMMERS? The idea was postponed after the feedback we received at Fanfest / forums. It's not out though, but initial discussions showed us that if there is one feature we need to carefully tread with, it's that one as it impacts a -lot- of third party players as well.
Yet we will have a station docking mechanic that shuts out an entire militia....
I'm fine with/will adapt to any and all other changes, but the full system station docking mechanic is the exact wrong way to go for FW, imho. So much so that after 3 years of FW that I may drop it depending on how things settle out post-release. There are other ways to make the "losing" side feel the pain without something as extreme as this - i.e. limiting docking denial to militia corp stations only and services at all remaining...or some combination thereof. I fear the full system lock out will do more harm than good.
Do appreciate the replies/answers though. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3851
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 17:58:00 -
[287] - Quote
Role Play Excuse why FW has to do with research cores.
Location of rare and valuable artifacts and research labs.
|
Grady Eltoren
Aviation Professionals for EVE
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 18:09:00 -
[288] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:The idea of locking people out of stations is interesting. But why not turn it into an ISK sink and charge a docking fee instead? Don't make it a trivial fee either. Something along the lines of Max(Standing * -1000000, 1000000). That way, you can if you need to, but you think a little about doing it often. And it gets ISK out of the economy.
Another great idea.
Make it so cost prohibitive to someone who has horrible standing with said station and (or) is in the opposing militia. If it is so low that station can shoot at that person even.
I never could figure out why we didn't do this in EVE from the time I started playing.
Quoted for outside the box excellence.
P.S. CCP Ytterbium - thank you for your post talking about getting back to science at a later date.
BUT PLEASE do not be the CCP of old and say that and don't. I just think this whole RP thing is a slap in the face and patched on to something else when it should be it's own project rolled out at the SAME time as science. My .02 isk.
Less caps this time. :) I am calming down. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 18:11:00 -
[289] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:...Once more for those who can't read/think, but without adding anything of value... Errrm. Since you made no mention of I take it the complete eradication of the Amarr militia is a design goal?
Caldari will muddle through, they have the bodies and incentives will make them come out to die plex, but even if Amarr was somehow able to field plexing numbers equal to that of the Shakorites the ease with which they can plex necessitates a 4:1 ratio (low estimate) just to keep up ... you should seriously consider bringing NPC balance back on the table for the initial release or scrapping the lockout "consequence" until such time that you do get around to it.
As for avoiding the inevitable snowball .. what is your genius plan to solve that one .. datacores is nowhere near enough and the crippling (as in Greek debt agreement crippling) LP penalty + lockouts will turn the uphill struggle into a sheer rockface climb so people will more than likely opt for pulling up stakes.
PS: I have asked Hans to tell you, but have no confirmation that he registered it so here goes - Your pet economist has done good work making you more aware of how a market works (judging by decrease in major "whoopsies"), but you still seem to have problems handling the curious beast called human nature. May I recommend you look towards hiring/collaborating with an anthropologist, psychologist or someone similar who has a better understanding of what makes people tick?
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Sarinat Talen
Celestial Arms Manufacturing and Operations New Eden Research.
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 18:30:00 -
[290] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, here are some answers for you. * THE DATACORES, IT'S OVER 9000?! Good point regarding mechanical engineering datacores, we will most likely spread this type out to all factions before release. Regarding the change itself, we will not actively adjust the RP amounts you have prior or after release. Which means players cashing in datacores that were worth 150 RP for 100 RP after release will get an advantage. Since the field multipliers are being removed, this change also means players will receive them slower, for 100 and 150 RP fields. But, since all of them now require 100 RP to be exchanged, it will be pretty balanced in the long run. R&D skills will unfortunately not be reimbursed as this profession is not going away - it will most likely be looked into and changed into a more active state separately in the future not to abandon players that invested time and effort into it. Hope that helps!
Thank you for taking the time to answer player questions. However by giving DCs to FW you are in fact abandoning the players you say you will not be. |
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2346
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 18:34:00 -
[291] - Quote
Some feedback for the developers:
I am hearing reports that the IHUB hitpoints have been increased by 129% ??
Increasing the hitpoints of the IHUB would ensure that only those militia corps with a massive battleship fleet and / or Dreadnoughts could capture it in a reasonable amount of time, this goes against everything CCP has committed to publicly with not streamlining the actual gameplay to coincide with 0.0 sovereignty, even if youGÇÖd like to streamline the terminology.
Long, protracted structure shoots are exactly what we NEVER want to see built into Factional Warfare mechanics, this will outrage players and severely limit which groups can participate in a system seizure.
If this is indeed the case, please, please roll back the change and allow the control bunker to remain at its current hit point level. The graphics are beautiful and the structure immense in size, but a longer, drawn out structure shoot goes against everything we enjoy about Faction Warfare compared to 0.0 sovereignty.
Docking access is tolerable (at least as far as trying this new system out) because the flip times give players time to move, and because they could potentially increase the number of small gang fights to be had. But more than double the structure grind? - this just flat out punishes small group activity and has no place in Faction Warfare.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 18:37:00 -
[292] - Quote
A few things:
Splitting LP rewards is not a good idea IMO. You shouldn't be disincentivizing people to not play together in a multiplayer game. I understand people want to try and limit blobbing, but all you're really doing is penalizing people for actually putting enough numbers into a plex to capture it. If the defenders show up with 10 guys and you have to bring in 5 more to kick them out, you'll get kicked in the nuts on your reward for doing the only thing you could while still actually participating in the occupancy fight.
Station docking rights need to affect neutrals with bad standings. It's just that simple. If you all don't do this, the whole station lockout thing will be abused to the point of being meaningless. Not to mention the fact that our biggest enemies in Gal Mil are the local pirates, rather than the squids. It's stupid to allow your enemies to dock in your stations when you have control of the system, whether those enemies are pirates or enemy militiamen.
The LP penalties are stupidly high. You should not penalize a side for losing by making it so they can't afford to replace their own losses. The ship loss rate in FW is probably greater than any other area of the game, and the only reason we're able to keep fighting each other is because we're able to earn enough isk to replace those losses. Making it harder for the losing side to replace losses just adds to the snowball effect.
Please, take out FW missions. Everyone hates them, except the farmers. If you won't take them out, at least nerf them into the ground so they're not a viable means of getting the best FW store items. Farmers are the scourge of FW and you all just can't seem to stop buffing them. They don't contribute to FW, in fact they actively hurt it by crashing our LP store markets so that we can't replace our losses. If what they did had an actual contribution to FW it would be at least tolerable, but they're only there to make isk. I've said it many times, but we actually have pirates who keep alts in FW that run our missions so they can make enough money to keep shooting at us. How ridiculous does it need to get for you all to see the problem here?
For the love of god put cyno jammers in as an upgrade. You can't imagine how many fights have been ruined by bored entities showing up with a cyno pilgrim a titan bridge on one of our fights from across the galaxy. If system ownership is actually going to mean something, let us exercise some goddamn control over our area.
I like that you all are actually trying to fix our broken FW playground, but creating all these loopholes just kills it even faster by driving people away. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
80
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 19:13:00 -
[293] - Quote
I know I might have mentioned this before but just in case:
Offensive plexing can be exploited too. People will just go to backwater systems and plex minors in speed fit condors or atrons.
Please give LP for both offensive and defensive, but only after a system is contested. That will create real conflict systems where fights will happen. Otherwise mission farmers are just going to turn into offensive plex farmers in backwater systems.
Oh, and cyno jammers please. |
Vyktor Abyss
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
139
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 19:24:00 -
[294] - Quote
Julius Foederatus above makes some good points.
I just wanted to post this quick idea - what about having missions be offered to you based on your pvp or plexing effort?
For example make a couple of good kills or take a couple of plexes and you get a mission offer? Might combat the farmers a bit. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3089
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 19:37:00 -
[295] - Quote
Grady Eltoren wrote: I don't "farm" that much but I am pissed at CCP's take on this situation and it completely rings true of their past mistakes and the reason we BURNED JITA. You guys seem REALLY OUT OF TOUCH HERE.
who the **** is "we" pubbie scum |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
91
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 19:51:00 -
[296] - Quote
a minor thing relating to faction warfare.
Clone locations.
A character can move their clone, to any of the following: the station they're in (if it has a medical facility) any stations their corp has an office in stations belonging to their school corporation.
Now, for an Amarrian character that has the school corporation "Imperial Academy", then they can move clones to any Imperial Academy station.
But if that character is enlisted in say, the Minmatar militia, then that is not really convenient.
Would it be possible to add stations belonging to a character's militia to the places that a character can move their clone to ? perhaps replacing the school corporation?
So that a character can move their clone to: the station they're in any stations their corp has an office in stations belonging to their militia
Would there be any downsides/potential exploits with this ? |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2349
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 20:02:00 -
[297] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Splitting LP rewards is not a good idea IMO. You shouldn't be disincentivizing people to not play together in a multiplayer game. I understand people want to try and limit blobbing, but all you're really doing is penalizing people for actually putting enough numbers into a plex to capture it. If the defenders show up with 10 guys and you have to bring in 5 more to kick them out, you'll get kicked in the nuts on your reward for doing the only thing you could while still actually participating in the occupancy fight.
Splitting LP rewards for plexing isn't just a good idea, its necessary to prevent farming on an absurd scale. Otherwise certain *cough* individuals *ahem* are going to use an army of 27 alts inside seize each plex they find, stacking LP endlessly.
Same goes for PvP kills, the only way a PvP payout can be given such that it prevents exploitation with alts in enemy militias is for the total payout to be less than the value of the ship that is lost. If you start handing out the same LP to everyone who participates, all you have to do is load up on enemy alts to blow up your own ships and and endless profit fountain can be created.
I think its far better to skimp on the rewards given to large plexing groups, than to implement some sort of a flat payout that can be stacked and exploited.
As for mission running - you'll never find a bigger advocate for killing the farming of militia missions than myself. From suggestions like Vyktor Abyss's all the way to the pending NPC balancing, I'd say CCP Ytterbium is getting pretty tired of hearing me cry out 'DEATH TO MISSION FARMING" on the internal forums and clearly understands the need to do something about this in subsequent releases. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 20:19:00 -
[298] - Quote
A bold way to make datacores "active" ...
- Remove T2 BPOs -> provide isk replacement
- Remove R&D agents -> reimburse all skill points in R&D skills unless they are a requirement for another trained skill
- Sell BPOs (yes, BPOs not BPCs) for datacores -> now, researcher can produce what they need -> more need for minerals or ring minerals, just don't tie them to something like faction warfare
- done
|
Toronto Mohican
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 20:24:00 -
[299] - Quote
Zakurai wrote:Unless your ultimate goal is to have people just buy plexes to cash in to fund their PVP, leave the RP alone.
This is there ultimate goal.
They couldn't squeeze the money they wanted out of us with the nex store so they are taking eve's most fun feature PVP, and turning it into an additional pay to play feature.
I was hoping one day Id be able to buy plex with isk to play this game for free. Seems like Ill have to be paying cash to sell plex on the market to replace ship losses since tech II will shoot through the roof.
Well done soundwave your making us pay a sub and pay more in cash to replace our ships. Glad my years of loyalty to this game is being rewarded with, give us more of your money its not enough.
***** the datacore changes.
Yes in the interview Soundwave mentioned that he wanted to do away with RP agents all together and didn't mention what mechanic could replace them. How are we supposed to get datacores? Solely from FW?
Who owns the tech II BPOs? Who owns them? Think.
People should have choices on what they want to do in this game. More and more it seems your only goal is to get more of us to join some massive blob alliance and grind in null sec.
EVERY ONE DOESNT WANT TO LIVE IN NULL SEC. Get that through your thick skulls! |
Tiger's Spirit
Troll Hunters INC.
75
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 20:38:00 -
[300] - Quote
Grady Eltoren wrote:blabla
Do you know what is mean FW ? Don't cry about datacores go and fight with your milicia.
Those pilots crying who just want easy money in the FW, but when the FW need them to fight, they just carebearing and not help for the other FW members. |
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2350
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 20:41:00 -
[301] - Quote
Hrett wrote:I know I might have mentioned this before but just in case:
Offensive plexing can be exploited too. People will just go to backwater systems and plex minors in speed fit condors or atrons.
Please give LP for both offensive and defensive, but only after a system is contested. That will create real conflict systems where fights will happen. Otherwise mission farmers are just going to turn into offensive plex farmers in backwater systems.
Oh, and cyno jammers please.
Every time someone takes a plex, they potentially devalue the IHUB upgrade level. Everytime they devalue the IHUB upgrade level, you lose Warzone Control. Everytime you lose warzone control, your prices go up, and your pay for actvities decreases.
The cool thing about the new system is that every single plex you capture harms the enemy in a real way.
If you don't care about the LP store prices, if you don't care about the pay level you receive for YOUR efforts, and you don't care about losing items docked in stations, than by all means sit there and allow the enemy to plex your backwater systems and take them while you wait for an LP payout to be implemented.
Frankly though, I'd say those are all pretty huge motivators to defensively plex even without a payment, I sincerely doubt that most players will ignore all the consequences that arise when you sit there and refuse to engage.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
81
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 20:49:00 -
[302] - Quote
The point about farming is well taken, but that still leaves us with a system that penalizes people for actually participating.
Part of the griping about mission farmers is that they don't contribute to the FW effort at all, and in fact actively hurt it by crashing the LP item market. For the longest time, those of us who call ourselves faction warriors have had to get our isk from the same faucet as the farmers, selling faction mods and ships. But we had no way of fighting back to control supply of the ships, or keep the mission runners from being able to farm in any practical way. In talking with a lot of my fellow FWers, part of the hope was that LP for plexing and kills would be boosted, and mission LP nerfed, so that those of us who rely on this stream of income to be able to pvp and replace losses would be able to finally exert some control of the LP store market, either through killing farming alts directly through plexing (and thus robbing them of their easy, regular isk stream), or by starving the mission running LP to the point that they couldn't supply faction items at the same rate as plexers or pvpers could, thus hampering their ability to crash the market.
Instead, now we see these changes where plex LP will become fairly meaningless because it will have to be split, and any person who actually plexes knows that you will need more than 1 guy per plex in order to actually take the thing once the enemy knows you're running the timer down. With PVP its not so bad, because theoretically, the bigger fights will require more ships to keep going, so the amount of LP you get stays more or less even, even though you have to split it up (though the guy who gets primaried first kinda gets boned). But with plexes, forcing players to split the rewards means that you're crippling any sort of reward for taking territory. So what will in effect happen, is that instead of the LP payout hierarchy being territory > kills > missions as Ytterbium said he wanted in the fanfest presentation, we'll still wind up with an effective payout hierarchy of missions > kills > territory, with kills and territory being equally ****** for rewards. This is exactly the status quo that we have now, and it's frustrating to me that CCP say they understand the problems and then implement changes that don't really change anything.
There are a few ideas to fix the plexing LP problems but they might end up being hopelessly complicated. One idea is to have LP given per second or per minute spent on the actual plex timer in a viable ship. That way you can go in and snipe alts trying to farm LP in t1 condors. Another is to only give LP payouts to the ship that is on the button first, or maybe the longest, unless the other ships actually shoot at or kill another enemy militiaman while on the button, in which case they'll get LP from that time on until the plex is captured. Beyond this, since system capture is going to be made five times more difficult, payout for actually busting a bunker should be way higher than it is being proposed, and it should also not be split. Personally I think LP payout for bunkers should be something like 1 or 2m, but I think everyone can agree that 40k is insanely low considering the amount of effort required to actually flip a system. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
200
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 21:16:00 -
[303] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:A few things:Please, take out FW missions. Everyone hates them, except the farmers. I like them. In the absence of opposition, it's way more fun roaming low sec to get LP than orbiting buttons. Anyways... 1. Please convert all my hard earned VP into Comets. Please drop them off in Villore FDU. 2. All of you who said they were now interested in FW, please join. This expansion is for you! 3. I think people will likely make as much isk/LP as before but it will be at a slower rate doing what we want to do instead of blitzing umpteen missions all at once. We'll see. |
Susan Black
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
42
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 22:41:00 -
[304] - Quote
In your dev blog you mention the cosmetic change of renaming the Control Bunker to I-Hub.
However, the current Control Bunker is vastly different then the current in-game I-Hub.
I-Hubs have 130%+ more hit points then control bunkers do....
Will the new I-Hub be a regular I-Hub, or will it be a sort of a 'FW I-Hub' that is called an I-Hub but has the same set-up as the old control bunkers?
www.gamerchick.net Follow me on Twitter! @gamerchick42 |
Bad Messenger
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
135
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 23:55:00 -
[305] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:[quote=Julius Foederatus] Splitting LP rewards for plexing isn't just a good idea, its necessary to prevent farming on an absurd scale. Otherwise certain *cough* individuals *ahem* are going to use an army of 27 alts inside seize each plex they find, stacking LP endlessly.
Best way to make enemy stop plexing is to use army of 27 alts in enemy militia, following enemy plexers and getting their lp splitted. |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
81
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 00:17:00 -
[306] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:A few things:Please, take out FW missions. Everyone hates them, except the farmers. I like them. In the absence of opposition, it's way more fun roaming low sec to get LP than orbiting buttons. Anyways... 1. Please convert all my hard earned VP into Comets. Please drop them off in Villore FDU. 2. All of you who said they were now interested in FW, please join. This expansion is for you! 3. I think people will likely make as much isk/LP as before but it will be at a slower rate doing what we want to do instead of blitzing umpteen missions all at once. We'll see.
You are literally the only person I've talked to who enjoys hunting mission runners. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
80
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 00:45:00 -
[307] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Hrett wrote:I know I might have mentioned this before but just in case:
Offensive plexing can be exploited too. People will just go to backwater systems and plex minors in speed fit condors or atrons.
Please give LP for both offensive and defensive, but only after a system is contested. That will create real conflict systems where fights will happen. Otherwise mission farmers are just going to turn into offensive plex farmers in backwater systems.
Oh, and cyno jammers please. Every time someone takes a plex, they potentially devalue the IHUB upgrade level. Everytime they devalue the IHUB upgrade level, you lose Warzone Control. Everytime you lose warzone control, your prices go up, and your pay for actvities decreases. The cool thing about the new system is that every single plex you capture harms the enemy in a real way. If you don't care about the LP store prices, if you don't care about the pay level you receive for YOUR efforts, and you don't care about losing items docked in stations, than by all means sit there and allow the enemy to plex your backwater systems and take them while you wait for an LP payout to be implemented. Frankly though, I'd say those are all pretty huge motivators to defensively plex even without a payment, I sincerely doubt that most players will ignore all the consequences that arise when you sit there and refuse to engage.
If you spend all night defensive plexing backwater systems that enemy farmers have run up, you have earned NO LP to spend in the LP store, so warzone control matters naught. Yes, I can get LP by killing people, but the problem is that farmers dont stay around to fight. Even if they did, a Condor with 2 Overdrives and no other mods probably wont give that much LP anyway.
The decision becomes: Hmm - do I offensive plex in a backwater system to earn LP and increase our warzone control, or do I defensive plex in a backwater system to NOT earn LP and NOT get fights against the farmers-that-just-run and hold our warzone control? Its a net wash in terms of warzone control - on defense you either gain a defensive plex and dont gain an offensive plex, or you go on offense and gain an offensive plex, but dont gain a defensive plex AND you get LP. If it is a wash as far as warzone control goes, but you get LP in one situation, it is pretty easy to predict which one is going to be exploited.
And people wont farm in station systems - they will farm in systems without stations. There is FAR less incentive to defend those.
If you give it to both sides, but only in contested systems, people will have incentive to stick around and actually fight and hold space. Otherwise it is just a farmer's dream.
IMHO of course. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
80
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 00:47:00 -
[308] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:[quote=Julius Foederatus] Splitting LP rewards for plexing isn't just a good idea, its necessary to prevent farming on an absurd scale. Otherwise certain *cough* individuals *ahem* are going to use an army of 27 alts inside seize each plex they find, stacking LP endlessly. Best way to make enemy stop plexing is to use army of 27 alts in enemy militia, following enemy plexers and getting their lp splitted.
And so it begins... |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 02:38:00 -
[309] - Quote
Would it be possible to have the LP payout scale somewhat, to encourage running in small groups?
Say a minor plex pays 10k lp for a solo runner, 8k per person for 2, 6k for 3, up to a max of 20k total. Thank would reward small gangs whilst preventing people from farming with a zillion alts. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
962
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 04:15:00 -
[310] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: the pending NPC balancing Say what?
Details? Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 04:24:00 -
[311] - Quote
The benefits of snowballing are way too high for the belief in any other outcome to be irrational. Give the downtrodden a knife to put in the oppressors back .. !!
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Say what? Details? "Pending" is official speak for SoonGäó. CCP appears to have replaced Hans with a Stepford clone
PS: Check the stickies in 'Features & Ideas Discussion' |
Narkel Netto
Qatach Ominant Juriate
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 05:23:00 -
[312] - Quote
Putting datacores into the FW LP stores as the primary purchase method is typical of CCP not understanding the game/lore and being completely tone-deaf. There are far better things to add to the FW LP stores, such as actual combat modules / ship hull BPCs.
Datacores do not belong in the FW LP store. Especially if you can buy them without having to train the science skills.
Datacores should have been added to the NPC R&D corp LP stores instead.
|
milazzo
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 06:14:00 -
[313] - Quote
Nanshara wrote: Do you even read the Dev Blogs - This is all subject to change. reading the thread your the first negative comment so guess you better HTFU
CCP never backs off of a bad idea - they climb up on their high horse and proclaim that only they can see the path forward.
Datacores have bupkiss to do with faction warfare. It's a nonsensical change.
|
Bad Messenger
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
135
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 07:01:00 -
[314] - Quote
Hrett wrote:Bad Messenger wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:[quote=Julius Foederatus] Splitting LP rewards for plexing isn't just a good idea, its necessary to prevent farming on an absurd scale. Otherwise certain *cough* individuals *ahem* are going to use an army of 27 alts inside seize each plex they find, stacking LP endlessly. Best way to make enemy stop plexing is to use army of 27 alts in enemy militia, following enemy plexers and getting their lp splitted. And so it begins...
As i said this is only boost for alt with no skill points, no need to bring your main to militia at all. |
Tiger's Spirit
Troll Hunters INC.
75
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 08:07:00 -
[315] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Please, take out FW missions. Everyone hates them, except the farmers.
Agreed, and the farmers just ruined the FW and LP stores etc. Missioning or farming not need FW membership. This is Faction "Wars" not "Faction Farming Site"
|
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
119
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 09:20:00 -
[316] - Quote
Tiger's Spirit wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:Please, take out FW missions. Everyone hates them, except the farmers. Agreed, and the farmers just ruined the FW and LP stores etc. Missioning or farming not need FW membership. This is Faction "Wars" not "Faction Farming Site"
funny is that farmers are mostly gone from FW .... and prices are very stable in past 4 months. Reason is simple. Farmers went for incursions guys. IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
294
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 10:32:00 -
[317] - Quote
So was the idea to allow the cyno jamming of low sec systems scrapped? I think that would have been cool. if each faction allowed certain ranged FW pilots to switch it off and on as needed... But if FW guys are telling you that they want to fight over stations to get cheap medical cloans, i guess they'll be happy. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
202
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 10:37:00 -
[318] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:Tiger's Spirit wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:Please, take out FW missions. Everyone hates them, except the farmers. Agreed, and the farmers just ruined the FW and LP stores etc. Missioning or farming not need FW membership. This is Faction "Wars" not "Faction Farming Site" funny is that farmers are mostly gone from FW .... and prices are very stable in past 4 months. Reason is simple. Farmers went for incursions guys. Not only that but "ruined" is a very strong word. The farmers turned FW LP payouts from ridiculously high to just really high when compared to other isk sources in Eve. I didn't see one person who runs FW missions turn to some other form of isk generation - unless they used the isk they generated in FW missions to set up a passive form of income. But that's another discussion.
CCP could make them more exciting by introducing a mechanism that forces the mission runner to stay and fight or fail the mission. That way griefers could have more fun because they would have a reasonable chance at winning.
In any case, if you get rid of missions, there will be no way for the Gallente to make real isk once we take all of the Cadari systems. So try not to kill the golden goose ok? |
Lost True
Paradise project
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 12:01:00 -
[319] - Quote
Quote:A change mentioned during Fanfest concerns datacores and research agents in general. While we do acknowledge that initial the initial period to train up for high-level research agents take times, effort and money, we are not particularly fond of the passive datacore income in general. Indeed, once the initial requirements are met, this is not so much of an active profession and more of a passive collection of items, which we want to look at.
How about i'll fix this for a nexd dev blog:
While we do acknowledge that initial the initial period to train up high-level research skills, buying a supercapital BPOs and research them take times, effort and money, we are not particularly fond of the passive BPO copying income in general.
Or T2 BPOs - nerf them
or Moon Milerals - remove them
or Alliance Taxes - Make them a EULA violation.
EVERYONE SHOULD FARM THEIR RATS! |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
938
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 13:04:00 -
[320] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Shar Tegral wrote:Don't know if it has been said already: Each faction should have access to Mechanical Engineering. We-¦re definitely keeping an eye on this development. As mentioned, this team will continue looking at FW after Inferno with the priority being 1: make changes to what we just shipped (potentially to ME datacores) and then 2: improving FW even more with new changes. If something doesn-¦t end up the way we like it, they-¦ll change it. Once it-¦s in a place where everything is how we want it to be, they-¦ll move on and do more new FW features. Winter is going to be pretty sweet.
As soon as you have to give one of the datacores (ME) to all of the faction warfare LP stores, it should be pretty obvious that it's a flawed concept to put datacores into the FW LP stores. Putting the racial datacores (Caldari Starship Engineering, etc) makes some sense - not much, but some. Far better to move all of the "navy issue" BPCs / etc. into the FW stores. Which would make more sense since it's end-user military technology.
Adding the datacores to the FW LP stores, without also adding them to the NPC R&D corp LP stores and not requiring datacore skills to be trained before you can purchase them is a slap in the face to everyone who has trained up those science skills in order to talk to the R&D agents. |
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Vince Snetterton
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
179
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 13:51:00 -
[321] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Shar Tegral wrote:Don't know if it has been said already: Each faction should have access to Mechanical Engineering. We-¦re definitely keeping an eye on this development. As mentioned, this team will continue looking at FW after Inferno with the priority being 1: make changes to what we just shipped (potentially to ME datacores) and then 2: improving FW even more with new changes. If something doesn-¦t end up the way we like it, they-¦ll change it. Once it-¦s in a place where everything is how we want it to be, they-¦ll move on and do more new FW features. Winter is going to be pretty sweet. As soon as you have to give one of the datacores (ME) to all of the faction warfare LP stores, it should be pretty obvious that it's a flawed concept to put datacores into the FW LP stores. Putting the racial datacores (Caldari Starship Engineering, etc) makes some sense - not much, but some. Far better to move all of the "navy issue" BPCs / etc. into the FW stores. Which would make more sense since it's end-user military technology. Adding the datacores to the FW LP stores, without also adding them to the NPC R&D corp LP stores and not requiring datacore skills to be trained before you can purchase them is a slap in the face to everyone who has trained up those science skills in order to talk to the R&D agents.
Scrapyard, you already know the reason this is happening.
I, among many others now, have posted the real purpose: This is all part of a co-ordinated campaign between the null sec zealots in game, using their propaganda dept and the extremely powerful meta-game tool the CSM, working closely with the null sec zealot element within CCP, aka Soundwave and his cardre. They goal of the campaign is to obliterate high sec from the game, at all costs. goons: "We don't want to ruin THE game, just YOUR game". ex-goon Soundwave: "I don't want to ruin THE game, just the game you THINK you should be playing." |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1356
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 14:07:00 -
[322] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:* THE DATACORES, IT'S OVER 9000?! Good point regarding mechanical engineering datacores, we will most likely spread this type out to all factions before release. Regarding the change itself, we will not actively adjust the RP amounts you have prior or after release. Which means players cashing in datacores that were worth 150 RP for 100 RP after release will get an advantage. Since the field multipliers are being removed, this change also means players will receive them slower, for 100 and 150 RP fields. But, since all of them now require 100 RP to be exchanged, it will be pretty balanced in the long run. R&D skills will unfortunately not be reimbursed as this profession is not going away - it will most likely be looked into and changed into a more active state separately in the future not to abandon players that invested time and effort into it.
Simple fix that makes sense:
R&D agents provide "Research Projects" which last for 1, 2, 4, 8 or 12 weeks. The shorter research projects produce roughly double the number of data cores per week that the 12 week projects generate. No more research agent missions, no more cancelling research.
This mimics the extraction cycle of PI, maintains the utility of the Research Project Management skill, and still accommodates the folks who only want to do a 50-jump tour of research agents once every few months.
|
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 16:15:00 -
[323] - Quote
CCP's claim: Datacores are passive
Well, that might be true, but they are only a part of a process, namely being able to build a T2 item.
So, let's have a look at the whole process.
1) Train skills 2) Grinding standing 3) Start obtaining RP to get datacores 4) Buy T1 BPO 5) Make a copy 6) Do the invention 7) repeat 5 & 6 until you finally get a T2 BPC 8) collect the required material 9) build the item
Now, let us look at the other way
1) Train skills 2) be a lucky person (or rich) and get a T2 BPO 3) collect the required material 4) build the item
And now, what is "passive" datacores or T2 BPOs? Mostly the first process requires a POS so you need to be even more active.
It seems to me, like CCP cares too much about those ultra rich guys with T2 BPOs aka ISK BPOs but they don't give a **** about those pilots who really run the research.
To sum up: - if you change the way of datacores, name us the real reason (is it reducing the profit of T2 BPO owners too much?) ... they are far from passive for those intending to build T2 material - when you change, take care that it fits to those relying on the datacores, don't just make them a semi-passive kind of income for people not involved into invention (i.e. most faction warfare pilots, some exceptions), instead of full-passive for all those dedicate to invest skill and time to be able to gain datacores - also consider T2 BPOs when you change something, since a change in datacores also changes the profit for T2 BPO owners
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
403
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 16:28:00 -
[324] - Quote
Vanessa Vansen wrote: 3) Start obtaining RP to get datacores 4) Buy T1 BPO 5) Make a copy 6) Do the invention
Uh, I'd suspect most people would just be dumping their DCs on the market.
at 12 DCs a day, that's nowhere near enough to maintain a single inventor who's doing any decent volume of invention.
So it's more:
- Grind up standing.
- Start research
- Every X months, go and collect the DCs. Drop them on the market.
So after you've done the grind for standing, it's pretty much passive (Except an infrequent series of jumps. Oh boo hoo. 50 jumps?)
Yes, it's somewhat painful for people with DC alts. Of course, if they've been sensible, they're also PI alts. They make about half on the DCs (47% or so, from the 10,000 isk fee and the increase in rp cost). but the PI is unaffected.
FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Sarinat Talen
Celestial Arms Manufacturing and Operations New Eden Research.
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 16:36:00 -
[325] - Quote
Vanessa Vansen wrote:
It seems to me, like CCP cares too much about those ultra rich guys with T2 BPOs aka ISK BPOs but they don't give a **** about those pilots who really run the research.
Less Datacores means rising prices to invent, which move on to the market (I do not see R&D people running out to join FW corps). Higher market prices mean more profit for T2 BPO holders, for whom the price to build is not affected. That does not even consider things that there are no BPOs for. And with mechanical engineering RP cost doubling and how prevalent it is in T2 Manufacturing, well expect inflation. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
89
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 17:05:00 -
[326] - Quote
Sarinat Talen wrote:...Higher market prices mean more profit for T2 BPO holders.. I ran that scenario in my super-computer brain and came up with 'null'. Datacores are a drop in the ocean when it comes to invention .. the one linchpin that exists (Mech. Eng.) CCP has already said they want to spread around .. diluting any effect the change might have had in the first place.
In short: One can quadruple datacore prices without affecting invention profits to any noticeable degree (unless things have changed a lot since I dabbled). |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 17:34:00 -
[327] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Sarinat Talen wrote:...Higher market prices mean more profit for T2 BPO holders.. I ran that scenario in my super-computer brain and came up with 'null'. Datacores are a drop in the ocean when it comes to invention .. the one linchpin that exists (Mech. Eng.) CCP has already said they want to spread around .. diluting any effect the change might have had in the first place. In short: One can quadruple datacore prices without affecting invention profits to any noticeable degree (unless things have changed a lot since I dabbled).
wut? Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time. |
Sarinat Talen
Celestial Arms Manufacturing and Operations New Eden Research.
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:40:00 -
[328] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Sarinat Talen wrote:...Higher market prices mean more profit for T2 BPO holders.. I ran that scenario in my super-computer brain and came up with 'null'. Datacores are a drop in the ocean when it comes to invention .. the one linchpin that exists (Mech. Eng.) CCP has already said they want to spread around .. diluting any effect the change might have had in the first place. In short: One can quadruple datacore prices without affecting invention profits to any noticeable degree (unless things have changed a lot since I dabbled).
I think you are misunderstanding the so called "spread around."
Right now every faction can research in Mechanical Engineering. People in this thread were responding to the chart saying only Minmatar were going to get Mech Eng datacores in their FW LP store. Now said Mechanical Engineering datacores are going to double in LP price. That means from now on your research is going to net you half of what you get now. This means you will have to buy more cores instead of using your own. And frankly you can already invent faster than you can generate cores anyway. So given the price of a mech eng core (280k low sell in Jita atm) that price will be added to more jobs. Any additional costs is an additional cost. The minimum for any invention job is 2 cores. That is more out of your wallet, which gets passed on to the consumer. Thus inventors sell at higher prices to make the same profit, and T2 BPO holders sell at the same higher price, because why would you sell at a lower price when you could sell higher?
Why did I even respond to that? |
Sheol Duncan
B0rthole Test Alliance Please Ignore
56
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:48:00 -
[329] - Quote
I'm not a faction warfare guy so take everything I suggest with a grain of salt. That said reading through the blog I had a couple of ideas:
Might it be possible to have some individual benefit for your faction owning a large number of systems? Perhaps once a week pay out something like 100LP per system to each pilot that has accomplished a decent number of FW objectives? That way you can directly incentivize holding the space itself. (The lack of this is also a problem in Nullsec and why PL can live the gypsy life)
Would it be better to divide the datacores up according to station? So if one faction captures a station from another faction they have access to the opposing factions datacore types. It might take a bit of code work with the LP stores because as far as I know every store from a faction displays the same items. But, that would allow FW pilots to be able to get any datacore, as long as they put in the effort to capture the enemies system.
These might be entirely unfeasible, and I'd love responses as to why I'm wrong. |
zero2espect
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
51
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 21:21:00 -
[330] - Quote
well. 0000 has been in FW for nearly 4 years. I have been in or around FW from the very start.
based on everything here, on or just after patch day, 0000 will be leaving Amarr FW.
We are one of the last 4 or 5 active FW corps for Amarr FW and we wish our brothers in arms the best in a now un-winnable situation.
It is a sad day when CCP takes one of the last bastions of small scale fleet warfare and hands it to the blob-dogs.
The decision is not a light one to take, however we will not simply sit back and watch everything we have fought for, over so many years, decapitated, raped and mutilated overnight.
You should take into consideration who is giving you feedback, before you slap yourselves on the back CCP. You have the CEOs or senior members of the last active Amarr FW corps saying the changes are "not the best" and you have 99% of all Minmatar pilots saying how awesome it's going to be and people who have never been in FW saying it is "good except for data cores".
This revamp was an opportunity to really ignite FW and turn it into a home for everybody who "doesn't want all of pvp eve to be like 0.0" and now we're left with what everybody has been saying you would do to FW for the last 12 months, turn FW into "0.0 Light".
Just as an insight, it's Friday night, peak EU TZ and Amarr TS has 13 pilots on it (after a quick check about half are active). The mims probably have 2 or 3 times that number in each of the 2 or 3 fleets closing plexes in preparation for patch day. Amarr FW is dead. And these mechanics make it impossible to recruit anybody willing to go 1:6 against the odds (and have to base ships 3 jumps out in high sec just to get a fight). We've already lost all our systems - there's not going to be any fights over them like you believe in your imagination, the mechanics simply make it impossible.
Here's what's going to happen. Amarr will have to base all it's ships in nearby high-sec (almost every corp has or is already moving all their stuff). Mims will move all their stuff to Kam, Huo and Kourm. They will have reships, capitals, numbers, bonuses and the mechanics of static plexes all working on their side to simply plink away ANYTHING that Amarr FW can muster in terms of a fleet. hell, if Amarr is lucky, the Mims will be stupid and gate camp the entry gates like 0.0, that way when an Amarr fleet gets murdered, there is only 1 Jump to go reship. It's going to be fun for the Amarr guys that are left, the first time some triage carriers get jumped onto anything approaching a "fair" fleet fight - I mean it's not like you will be able to deploy any yourself....
This isn't sour grapes. I expect a lot of "lol tears" replies. Well that's all and good, but we are the Number 6 all time corp in Amarr FW and 5 of the Top 10 all-time killers in Amarr FW are (or were) 0000. We will go toe to toe with anybody, anywhere -but having your head kicked-in by a patch is just plain depressing. Thanks but we'll stand proud and leave on top instead of being ground into stardust by mechanics. |
|
Blau Viper
Last of the Brunnen-G
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 21:46:00 -
[331] - Quote
Any comment from CCP about them fixing the wrong problem. Datacores are not a problem, inventions lack of competitiveness against T2 BPOs is.
Come on CCP do something here are some options.
1. Remove T2 BPO from the game and replace them with limited run BPC - Very unpopular with BPO owners very popular with the rest of EVE.
2. Limit the ME and PE of all T2 BPOs -1 and -1 which I think is the best you can get on T2 Ship invention - Still unpopular with T2 BPO owners but not as bad as 1.
3. Improve invention ME so that invented BPC are better than a researched T2 BPO - This seem the fairer option as it leaves T2 BPOs as they are but rewards inventions and the investment in time and skills. |
|
CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1286
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 22:07:00 -
[332] - Quote
Off topic posts removed. Please stay on topic and polite, thank you. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
|
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 22:20:00 -
[333] - Quote
Rhaile Vhindiscar wrote:"You want to do research, fine? The best way is to go kill people." I can see how that would play out to a potential scientist. So, are you really telling industrialist to join fw or just creating an interdependence without any real justification?
Overhaul datacore mining some other way. Get datacores out of FW. It doesn't make sense fluff wise or mechanic wise. You just got done telling people you're not going to let them shoot npcs to build things (drone nerf)...then you tell them you are going to make them shoot npcs to build things (fw overhaul). All you did was change the position in the production chain.
Always good to see Goon tears. Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Blau Viper
Last of the Brunnen-G
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 22:39:00 -
[334] - Quote
CCP Phantom T2 BPOs, Datacore and Invention are all linked the and changing one without addressing the Elephant in the room is a mistake.
Anyone would think you didn't want to talk about the real issues. |
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 22:57:00 -
[335] - Quote
zero2espect wrote:well. 0000 has been in FW for nearly 4 years. I have been in or around FW from the very start.
based on everything here, on or just after patch day, 0000 will be leaving Amarr FW.
We are one of the last 4 or 5 active FW corps for Amarr FW and we wish our brothers in arms the best in a now un-winnable situation.
It is a sad day when CCP takes one of the last bastions of small scale fleet warfare and hands it to the blob-dogs.
The decision is not a light one to take, however we will not simply sit back and watch everything we have fought for, over so many years, decapitated, raped and mutilated overnight.
You should take into consideration who is giving you feedback, before you slap yourselves on the back CCP. You have the CEOs or senior members of the last active Amarr FW corps saying the changes are "not the best" and you have 99% of all Minmatar pilots saying how awesome it's going to be and people who have never been in FW saying it is "good except for data cores".
This revamp was an opportunity to really ignite FW and turn it into a home for everybody who "doesn't want all of pvp eve to be like 0.0" and now we're left with what everybody has been saying you would do to FW for the last 12 months, turn FW into "0.0 Light".
Just as an insight, it's Friday night, peak EU TZ and Amarr TS has 13 pilots on it (after a quick check about half are active). The mims probably have 2 or 3 times that number in each of the 2 or 3 fleets closing plexes in preparation for patch day. Amarr FW is dead. And these mechanics make it impossible to recruit anybody willing to go 1:6 against the odds (and have to base ships 3 jumps out in high sec just to get a fight). We've already lost all our systems - there's not going to be any fights over them like you believe in your imagination, the mechanics simply make it impossible.
Here's what's going to happen. Amarr will have to base all it's ships in nearby high-sec (almost every corp has or is already moving all their stuff). Mims will move all their stuff to Kam, Huo and Kourm. They will have reships, capitals, numbers, bonuses and the mechanics of static plexes all working on their side to simply plink away ANYTHING that Amarr FW can muster in terms of a fleet. hell, if Amarr is lucky, the Mims will be stupid and gate camp the entry gates like 0.0, that way when an Amarr fleet gets murdered, there is only 1 Jump to go reship. It's going to be fun for the Amarr guys that are left, the first time some triage carriers get jumped onto anything approaching a "fair" fleet fight - I mean it's not like you will be able to deploy any yourself....
This isn't sour grapes. I expect a lot of "lol tears" replies. Well that's all and good, but we are the Number 6 all time corp in Amarr FW and 5 of the Top 10 all-time killers in Amarr FW are (or were) 0000. We will go toe to toe with anybody, anywhere -but having your head kicked-in by a patch is just plain depressing. Thanks but we'll stand proud and leave on top instead of being ground into stardust by mechanics.
Well said zero.
CCP what are you going to do now that you gave a milita the ability to kill FW? This will truly be a successful expansion, remembered for killing a feature you forgot about. |
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 23:06:00 -
[336] - Quote
Nice dev blog. Makes FW look interesting and rewarding. Reading through thread I might get an alt to join amarr faction. Looks like there will be an absolute tonne of LP to gain from killing Minmatars. |
Lady Zarrina
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 23:22:00 -
[337] - Quote
I know the faction war is not the only place to get datacores in the future, but is there an issue with Caldari and Gallente having all the datacores for T3 subsystems (not counting the actual subsystem ones) while Amarr and Minmatar have none.
I am going by memory here, but I think they are
Gallente
- Electronic - Plasma
Caldari
- Hydromagnetic - Quantum - Rocket?
Allocate resources to FiS |
Ramman K'arojic
Deep Black Industries Yulai Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 00:56:00 -
[338] - Quote
I have been reading the blog & comments about datacores from R&D agents. Datacores from factional WF - fine an excellent 2nd faucet.
That leaves the question what to do about R&D agents. What your proposing is Wrong; reducing them is *wrong*. What you need to get is people to be involved in there NPC corps and to work form them. Greater there involvement in the NPC corp, they should get greater rewards.
The following is what popped into my head during sleep.
- You keep a count of how much LP has been rewarded each month for missioning for each Level agent for that NPC corp;
- Using a sliding scale of LP you determine how much to modify the data core RP price
- In theory if you run L3 agents and L3 R*D agents and you earn 4000 LP a month you pay 0% premium, if you run no agents missions you pay 50% more , at 20000 LP you would pay 40% less (Or something similar). Different R*D agents have different LP levels.
- If you run multiple R&D agents from the same NPC crop its reduced by some stacking penalty
This isn't about making farming continuing its about ensuring that you need to keep your appearances with each NPC for the data-cores to be best priced; and even a little ugly if you dont..
Bottom line is - dont kill 1 way because you dont like it; make that way work; thought you would have learnt that by now CCP.
Ramm |
Vonlutt
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 00:57:00 -
[339] - Quote
ITT lots of amarr tears. Give it a few months and Amarr will outnumber minmatar again like it does every Summer until Christmas. Quit crying. |
Bayushi Tamago
Tribuo Quod Victum The AirShip Pirates
48
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 01:49:00 -
[340] - Quote
Nice to see changes to FW, however, I can't comment of the repricussions of them, as I don't do FW. But, their LP stores already make enough things too cheap for non-FW people to compete with on the market (PI offices, implants etc).
I don't like the datacore retrieval changes for R&D agents, however, I can understand why you see it as a problem. I would have hoped taking away RP generation while not subbed would have been enough though. Just don't put datacores in FW LP stores, because that's likely going to break the datacore market and kill a lot of t2 production, both of which are already horrendously skill intensive and expensive. |
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
416
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 01:50:00 -
[341] - Quote
zero2espect wrote: You should take into consideration who is giving you feedback, before you slap yourselves on the back CCP. You have the CEOs or senior members of the last active Amarr FW corps saying the changes are "not the best" and you have 99% of all Minmatar pilots saying how awesome it's going to be and people who have never been in FW saying it is "good except for data cores"..
Good post but I would say there are quite a few minmatar who see the new sytem is null sec lite and don't like it.
What I find is that people who are quick to defend null sec blob mechanics and like tell everyone "herp derp htfu" are the ones most in support of these changes. There are allot of such people in eve now and they are likely to make up an even larger percent of the eve population, unless ccp does something to recognize casual small scale pvpers are important to them.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Linus Gengod
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 02:18:00 -
[342] - Quote
I am NOT in favor of the Datacore changes as currently being described.
For me, the datacore thing sounds like a solution looking for a problem.
I understand wanting to do something about the "free flow of datacores" I guess... but anyone who thinks farming datacores is a great source of ISK has never done it themselves. There is no reason to explain again, this thread is full of good examples of how farming datacores is not a very strong source of income.
For me, I just don't understand the idea of making datacores available from the FW LP stores. The idea of "shoot stuff to get datacores" just makes no sense, especially to a scientist or inventor. As someone else said, it reminds me of "shoot stuff to get minerals" which CCP obviously decided was a bad move. PLEASE DONT REPEAT THAT BAD MOVE!
I am an Inventor and Builder of T2 stuff. So I actually use datacores, I don't sell them. So in a way I will just have to wait and see what happens to the price of datacores, etc. And in the end, inventors who need datacores will get them one way or another, UNLESS this makes invention less and less profitable, which is possible.... especially due to the issue of T2 BPOs which still exist. If you really want to shake things up, put a ticking time bomb on T2 BPOs.
But CCP, PLEASE, think a little about datacores and about the industry of T2 invention / manufacturing. Please don't kill R&D NPC corps, please listen to the other good ideas here. I like the idea of making datacores available from R&D corp LP stores, for example... that would MAKE SENSE. But moving them to FW really doesn't make sense at all. Really. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 04:27:00 -
[343] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:R&D skills will unfortunately not be reimbursed as this profession is not going away - it will most likely be looked into and changed into a more active state separately in the future not to abandon players that invested time and effort into it. Yeeeaaahh.... Given CCP's track record on those sorts of assurances that's not likely to happen anytime soon (if ever). I mean it's not like you guys said the same thing when you jacked up Deep Space Probes. Or released Black Ops. Or figured out that you screwed up Gallente in general. Or a million other well-intentioned assurances that never saw the light of day. Just saying....
|
Sarinat Talen
Celestial Arms Manufacturing and Operations New Eden Research.
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 05:30:00 -
[344] - Quote
Of the passive income of datacores really is a problem, just make them cost LPs and RPs at a ratio of 5:1 at an R&D corp. Instant active profession. |
Morgan Dinn
The 20th Legion Mildly Sober
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 07:43:00 -
[345] - Quote
Hey hold on...
Does this mean you will get mechanical cores only from Minmatar space and agents? |
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
628
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 08:03:00 -
[346] - Quote
This needs to be implemented into nullsec Sov Warfare.
It's not rocket surgery. |
Stragak
Mangi Consilii S E D I T I O N
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 08:52:00 -
[347] - Quote
kinda want to say this "BOOO!", at least to the R and D side any guesses it takes an active percipient in the eve experience to to get decent standing's. However don't get me wrong I have served in the caldari militia on many occasions but flipping a man. The amount of missions i had to run to even give two snits about it R and D. Nobody cares about your plans to be dirty hippies. goon (n)-áthefreedictionary A thug hired to intimidate or harm opponents A stupid or oafish person.
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
89
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 08:53:00 -
[348] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote:Nice dev blog. Makes FW look interesting and rewarding. Reading through thread I might get an alt to join amarr faction. Looks like there will be an absolute tonne of LP to gain from killing Minmatars. Yeah, excellent plan. Now read the blog again .. LP-for-Kills is still pretty low and any LP you make will only be worth 25-33% of current thanks to the Shakorites snowballing the area, getting +20% on all LP earned and a 75% discount in their LP store. You would make more LP running level 3 FW missions for Shakor than joining Amarr for plexing/killing purposes.
Vonlutt wrote:ITT lots of amarr tears. Give it a few months and Amarr will outnumber minmatar again like it does every Summer until Christmas. Quit crying. The fall surge is almost purely PvP oriented which is a moot point as we have always been able to kill you lot even when outnumbered. Problem is that we have always needed 2-3x your numbers when it comes to plexing to keep pace due to NPC and geographical imbalances .. something that will be exasperated by being unable to dock anywhere in LS due to being snowballed .. the fall surge, were it to go plexing crazy, is not even close to providing the manpower to make up for the changes in the patch.
Quit crying you say .. crying not so much, but a majority of Amarr Militia will be quitting so half of those words were accurate. Have fun running missions in bombers ad nauseum and welcome to FarmVilleGäó Eve Edition.
|
Tiger's Spirit
Troll Hunters INC.
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 09:29:00 -
[349] - Quote
Vonlutt wrote:ITT lots of amarr tears. Give it a few months and Amarr will outnumber minmatar again like it does every Summer until Christmas. Quit crying.
This. |
BOCCO BREARLEY
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 10:23:00 -
[350] - Quote
Tiger's Spirit wrote:Vonlutt wrote:ITT lots of amarr tears. Give it a few months and Amarr will outnumber minmatar again like it does every Summer until Christmas. Quit crying. This. Other things Amarrian corp splitted the amarrian FW activity, they doing other Ops and when a plilot want to joining to an opeations, they just say This is PIE. operations, This is Zero Heavy industries OP, this is Imperial Fedaykin op. They using other comm softwares and channels. The matars use a merged Eve Voice channel, Why to wonder any amarrian corp if the matar militia spank them ? LOL Amarr FW corps bunch full of noob, almost all just go to LP farming for Navy slicers. 300 members on FW chat and when they need to fight, they just do nothing or just few players go to pvp for help to other members. So, amarrian pilots, dont cry just go fight. Check militia member numbers on FW panel and see the truth for numbers.
Really, I mean really?
Zero Heavy Industries have always held open fleets, everyone has their own coms including us but you'll find us on amarr TS3.
The numbers in the Militia Office window (possibly the worst and most under devloped window in the game), do these include active accounts? Do they show people who actually play amarr having 4374 members - thats a laugh.
FW was fun and now it is a sad hollow shell of what it was, it was left too long and now the changes that have been long awaited will kill it. If this was the intention then +1 to CCP - job well done.
Station lock outs will kill it, the other changes, Datacores / LP stuff like that - who cares but the additional jumps required to reship in fights - akkk. |
|
Tiger's Spirit
Troll Hunters INC.
84
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 11:04:00 -
[351] - Quote
BOCCO BREARLEY wrote:Tiger's Spirit wrote:Vonlutt wrote:ITT lots of amarr tears. Give it a few months and Amarr will outnumber minmatar again like it does every Summer until Christmas. Quit crying. This. Other things Amarrian corp splitted the amarrian FW activity, they doing other Ops and when a plilot want to joining to an opeations, they just say This is PIE. operations, This is Zero Heavy industries OP, this is Imperial Fedaykin op. They using other comm softwares and channels. The matars use a merged Eve Voice channel, Why to wonder any amarrian corp if the matar militia spank them ? LOL Amarr FW corps bunch full of noob, almost all just go to LP farming for Navy slicers. 300 members on FW chat and when they need to fight, they just do nothing or just few players go to pvp for help to other members. So, amarrian pilots, dont cry just go fight. Check militia member numbers on FW panel and see the truth for numbers. Really, I mean really? Zero Heavy Industries have always held open fleets, everyone has their own coms including us but you'll find us on amarr TS3. The numbers in the Militia Office window (possibly the worst and most under devloped window in the game), do these include active accounts? Do they show people who actually play amarr having 4374 members - thats a laugh. FW was fun and now it is a sad hollow shell of what it was, it was left too long and now the changes that have been long awaited will kill it. If this was the intention then +1 to CCP - job well done. Station lock outs will kill it, the other changes, Datacores / LP stuff like that - who cares but the additional jumps required to reship in fights - akkk.
Its just not truth, i played both sides, at amarrian and matarr sides too (last time at amarrian side) 90% of Zero Heavy industres Ops is not alliance op. 8-10 pilots flying in op, when some other small scale alliance fleets flying other locations.
Everyone has own comms, and many times all using other comms not the amarrian TS3. Use one comms such matars the Eve voice and the matar pilots not have advantages.
FW was fun 2 years ago, when the amarrians not just went to lp farming. FW is not fun anymore, need changes.
Station locks is fine, fight for them and dont just crying. Other thing separated datacores will be balancing the numbers, because when there is no amarrian datacore their prices will be increasing, more pilots will be joining to amarrian milicia and vica-versa.
And yes the Amarrian numbers it's ajoke, because they has ridiculous high pilot numbers, when we talking about Amarrian carebears and ridiculous low numbers when we talking about Amarrian PvPers. Over 4k numbers and they have max 40-50 pvp pilots who fight.
Just as i told, i fought both sides i know what i'm talk about, the matar side much more organised than amarr side and the amarrian side has much more carebears and they are splitted. |
Ahazu Sagam
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 12:28:00 -
[352] - Quote
Quote:300 members on FW chat and when they need to fight, they just do nothing or just few players go to pvp for help to other members.
Woah, i think i need new glasses; 300 people in milita chat, it looked like a hundred for me. I blame ccp for the new UI scaling . And this would also explain all this whine from minis about blobbing, they have usually 200 people in thier milita chat. |
Bad Messenger
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
135
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 12:38:00 -
[353] - Quote
zero2espect wrote:well. 0000 has been in FW for nearly 4 years. I have been in or around FW from the very start.
based on everything here, on or just after patch day, 0000 will be leaving Amarr FW.
We are one of the last 4 or 5 active FW corps for Amarr FW and we wish our brothers in arms the best in a now un-winnable situation.
It is a sad day when CCP takes one of the last bastions of small scale fleet warfare and hands it to the blob-dogs.
The decision is not a light one to take, however we will not simply sit back and watch everything we have fought for, over so many years, decapitated, raped and mutilated overnight.
You should take into consideration who is giving you feedback, before you slap yourselves on the back CCP. You have the CEOs or senior members of the last active Amarr FW corps saying the changes are "not the best" and you have 99% of all Minmatar pilots saying how awesome it's going to be and people who have never been in FW saying it is "good except for data cores".
This revamp was an opportunity to really ignite FW and turn it into a home for everybody who "doesn't want all of pvp eve to be like 0.0" and now we're left with what everybody has been saying you would do to FW for the last 12 months, turn FW into "0.0 Light".
Just as an insight, it's Friday night, peak EU TZ and Amarr TS has 13 pilots on it (after a quick check about half are active). The mims probably have 2 or 3 times that number in each of the 2 or 3 fleets closing plexes in preparation for patch day. Amarr FW is dead. And these mechanics make it impossible to recruit anybody willing to go 1:6 against the odds (and have to base ships 3 jumps out in high sec just to get a fight). We've already lost all our systems - there's not going to be any fights over them like you believe in your imagination, the mechanics simply make it impossible.
Here's what's going to happen. Amarr will have to base all it's ships in nearby high-sec (almost every corp has or is already moving all their stuff). Mims will move all their stuff to Kam, Huo and Kourm. They will have reships, capitals, numbers, bonuses and the mechanics of static plexes all working on their side to simply plink away ANYTHING that Amarr FW can muster in terms of a fleet. hell, if Amarr is lucky, the Mims will be stupid and gate camp the entry gates like 0.0, that way when an Amarr fleet gets murdered, there is only 1 Jump to go reship. It's going to be fun for the Amarr guys that are left, the first time some triage carriers get jumped onto anything approaching a "fair" fleet fight - I mean it's not like you will be able to deploy any yourself....
This isn't sour grapes. I expect a lot of "lol tears" replies. Well that's all and good, but we are the Number 6 all time corp in Amarr FW and 5 of the Top 10 all-time killers in Amarr FW are (or were) 0000. We will go toe to toe with anybody, anywhere -but having your head kicked-in by a patch is just plain depressing. Thanks but we'll stand proud and leave on top instead of being ground into stardust by mechanics.
As minmatars are stupid they take all systems without rewards before patch. It is just good that they own all systems before expansion, then they can not farm lp from attack plexes |
Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1189
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 13:17:00 -
[354] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:As minmatars are stupid they take all systems without rewards before patch. It is just good that they own all systems before expansion, then they can not farm lp from attack plexes If we ever join FW, remind me that I have to start shooting smurfs ;)
Get |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
89
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 14:00:00 -
[355] - Quote
Tiger's Spirit wrote:Its just not truth, i played both sides, at amarrian and matarr sides too (last time at amarrian side) 90% of Zero Heavy industres Ops is not alliance op. 0000's fleets have always been public unless it is a specific purpose fleet which as far as I can tell are very rare .. ever heard of Fleet of Lerv? Those were immensely popular open 0000 fleets running for the longest time.
Tiger's Spirit wrote:.. Other thing separated datacores will be balancing the numbers, because when there is no amarrian datacore their prices will be increasing, more pilots will be joining to amarrian milicia and vica-versa. Except of course that once prices go high enough on the market, the more expensive cores available from the R&D agents suddenly become competitive on the market so there is no incentive to join a collapsed militia. Keep in mind that you'll have no stations to dock in at all once you enter FW space flying the banner of one of the collapsed .. have fun trying to survive long enough to accomplish anything of value - might be able to run in and a ninja a plex but then the LP gained is only worth 25% so why bother?
Tiger's Spirit wrote:Just as i told, i fought both sides i know what i'm talk about... Certainly sounds like it ..
PS: PIE Inc. have had one corp fleet every two to four weeks some time ago (rest were open or not ours) and if anyone *known* asked they were generally allowed to tag along .. fleets themselves were closed but only to control intake and not for exclusivity.
Bad Messenger wrote:As minmatars are stupid they take all systems without rewards before patch. It is just good that they own all systems before expansion, then they can not farm lp from attack plexes That is one hell of an observation .. why the hell didn't I see that .. hahahahahahaha, they are silly indeed. I am glad there will no reset now, let them make their money like null carebears .. with nothing but empty space around them and only the occasional noob pirate/roam to keep their blood pumping. |
Tiger's Spirit
Troll Hunters INC.
84
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 15:58:00 -
[356] - Quote
zero2espect wrote:Just as an insight, it's Friday night, peak EU TZ and Amarr TS has 13 pilots on it (after a quick check about half are active). The mims probably have 2 or 3 times that number in each of the 2 or 3 fleets closing plexes in preparation for patch day. Amarr FW is dead. And these mechanics make it impossible to recruit anybody willing to go 1:6 against the odds .
Others was on carebear op.
just for everyone he talking about 1:6 odds, but the truth is this : the amarrian and caldari militia have more members than minmatar and gallentean militia. 12k vs 10.5k The differences is : more minmatar pvping than amarrians. Amarrias carebearing while minmatars killing them. everyone check this, when look at the FW information panel. |
zero2espect
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
56
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 19:53:00 -
[357] - Quote
Tiger, didn't we wardec your main and make the corp run away?
yeah. i think we did.
Tzvi just isn't the same without the sound of you screaming as you run for the gates.
whenever you want to come back, come back. bring some juicy stuff to kill. |
Tiger's Spirit
Troll Hunters INC.
84
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 20:11:00 -
[358] - Quote
zero2espect wrote:Tiger, didn't we wardec your main and make the corp run away?
yeah. i think we did.
Tzvi just isn't the same without the sound of you screaming as you run for the gates.
whenever you want to come back, come back. bring some juicy stuff to kill.
Your skill enough to kill my corp or me ? I dont think so, that's why i have more kills with my main than your corp. I ran at TZVI ? Nice lying, but this character never was in FW that's why i not on your amarr militia killboard, but i killed you many times with my main, because you are a noob. Whenever if i go back you will screaming again when my other alt catch your machariel.
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Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 21:01:00 -
[359] - Quote
So you're all going to give up without even trying? No fight, just fold?
/stockpiles Slicers |
Udonor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 21:32:00 -
[360] - Quote
YES! Phase out R&D agents and PVE sources of datacores as fast as possible.
Faction warfare LP stores should be the ONLY source of datacores if you want to revive small fleet combat and ruthless PVP action.
Furthermore I favor making faction PVP kills the only source of datacores. Player ships and maybe pods need to die to earn data cores.
As I see it you still need to reduce the persistent emphasis on PVE. Faction complexes for control of system are still primarily PVE even if a component of player opposition is encouraged. Its really too easy to use time zones etc to out wait most defenders. Thus I think you are still awarding too many points on farmable PVE -- factional or not.
**** LOL - in fact I a can see organized groups of people farming the hell out of factional warfare complexes by using alt corps to play both sides then intentionally letting a complex or system be taken easily and then retaken easily. *****
**** The simplest solution is to drop player tags for ship kills (ship type or class + player rank info) and pod kills (faction military rank only). This could also tie into an improved bounty system where lost ship(s) determine the amount or % of payout -- rather than ally kills you in rookie ship or bare pod to take home whole bounty. ****
Alternatively consider separating LP into two types: PVP earned LP and PVE LP. Or simply award vastly more for killing intelligent player over easily farmed PVE rats.
|
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Hormus
Veria Ltd.
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 22:11:00 -
[361] - Quote
Datacores is the main source of price difference between T2 BPO and T2 BPC manufactured items. If datacores get more expensive, ppl that manufacture with invention will have to increase prices - but those with T2 BPO's are not affected. So, the shamefull gap between T2 BPO owners and the rest manufacturers will get bigger. Bad move, CCP. |
Crimson's Girl
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 23:40:00 -
[362] - Quote
Factional Warfare Data Cores need to have the same science skill requirements for redemption just like civilians have. That makes it balanced pertaining to time spent training specific skills as well as not break immersion. Everything else pertaining to Factional Warfare getting access to Data Cores is fine.
This game is advertised as allowing players to do any type of game play style with multiple option's. Seems like you keep trying to force players to play this game a certain way as well as phase out PvE content. If that happens, you can kiss my accounts goodbye. Personally, I think you guys keep fuc'in this game up more and more each year which keeps pushing me closer and closer to canceling all of my accounts. |
Shang Ghjuvan
Ghjuvan Research Agency
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 01:56:00 -
[363] - Quote
I was rather irritated when I saw the datacore thing...... I thought the datacore thing was considered one of those things you worked for and achieved, I would rather see it turn into something that takes weekly or monthly activity like pi then to just straight nerf it..... It kind of makes me feel cheated because I spent the money to have an alt account to train them, spend the time on my main to train it, and spent MONTHS trying to get enough standing on all three chars......... Back then you could amost get a monthly plex off it and now the income is laughable..... If you let them build up for a month the time it takes to collect them results in less isk/hr than running level 4s. And then you nerf them???? Really? |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing
279
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 02:46:00 -
[364] - Quote
The datacore change makes no sense whatsoever. T2 production costs will increase and the datacores don't even fit into the FW storyline. Furthermore, a cost to retrieve them? Why? All that does is add the cost to the sale. It won't matter to anyone.
Kinda dumbfounded by this change. It's not a lot of isk. I don't see the point plus it's just market transactions, not some free isk faucet. Leave it alone imo. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 02:49:00 -
[365] - Quote
Hormus wrote:Datacores is the main source of price difference between T2 BPO and T2 BPC manufactured items. If datacores get more expensive, ppl that manufacture with invention will have to increase prices - but those with T2 BPO's are not affected. So, the shamefull gap between T2 BPO owners and the rest manufacturers will get bigger. Bad move, CCP.
That's a load of bull. The #1 price point is from the negative ME - that translates to a huge amount of waste on bpcs. The datacores are almost negligable in all cases to the price of the final product. I know - I do invention as my primary income. |
Morgan Dinn
The 20th Legion Mildly Sober
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 03:43:00 -
[366] - Quote
Udonor wrote: **** LOL - in fact I a can see organized groups of people farming the hell out of factional warfare complexes by using alt corps to play both sides then intentionally letting a complex or system be taken easily and then retaken easily. *****
I think I'll start doing this just **** off CCP cause they are screwing up my r&d skills. Datacore prices has doubled in a week so there are good isks involved in all of this. :P |
Blau Viper
Last of the Brunnen-G
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 08:10:00 -
[367] - Quote
SigmaPi wrote:Hormus wrote:Datacores is the main source of price difference between T2 BPO and T2 BPC manufactured items. If datacores get more expensive, ppl that manufacture with invention will have to increase prices - but those with T2 BPO's are not affected. So, the shamefull gap between T2 BPO owners and the rest manufacturers will get bigger. Bad move, CCP. That's a load of bull. The #1 price point is from the negative ME - that translates to a huge amount of waste on bpcs. The datacores are almost negligable in all cases to the price of the final product. I know - I do invention as my primary income.
When I said that and suggested that CCP were looking at the wrong ISK facet and suggested rebalancing T2 BPOs against BPCs my post was removed as off topic! This change does nothing to address the real issue of inventions viability, and if I mention the reason for that lack of viability the post will be removed, odd that. |
Vyktor Abyss
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
139
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 21:46:00 -
[368] - Quote
I got a tinfoil hat just for you.
But yeah, minimum datacore price just gifts t2 bpo owners more isk per run.
t2 bpos are relics of the past and need removal/nerfing to insignificance. |
Caesar Rae
Legio VIII Augusta
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 00:44:00 -
[369] - Quote
Besides making T2 gear more expensive , and possibly rarer , messing with datacores is a generally bad Idea.
No issues with making them part of the FW rewards system , but they should not be removed from the Research agents entirely.
A balance between the two , such as a higher cost from the current RP for the core , and a similar earned cost from the FW militia.
It is generally a bad idea to break things to where casual players have to decide if it is worth continuing. |
Caesar Rae
Legio VIII Augusta
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 00:51:00 -
[370] - Quote
SigmaPi wrote:Hormus wrote:Datacores is the main source of price difference between T2 BPO and T2 BPC manufactured items. If datacores get more expensive, ppl that manufacture with invention will have to increase prices - but those with T2 BPO's are not affected. So, the shamefull gap between T2 BPO owners and the rest manufacturers will get bigger. Bad move, CCP. That's a load of bull. The #1 price point is from the negative ME - that translates to a huge amount of waste on bpcs. The datacores are almost negligable in all cases to the price of the final product. I know - I do invention as my primary income.
If T2 BPO's operate the same way as T1 BPO's (unfortunately I have never seen one) then the first person is correct.
T2 BPO's do not have the issues with datacore costs or negative ME and PE from invention and thus any cost changes to datacores will make thier products cheaper to market. |
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Soldarius
United Highsec Front The 99 Percent
218
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 04:37:00 -
[371] - Quote
EDIT: I borked my math. HerpDerp
Ok, so I went to SISi to try out some FW content. For 6 hours I ran 1 Outpost, 4 Major Outposts, and a Major Stronghold. From a zero start, I accumulated 140k LP in about 6 hours. Major Stronghold was a ***** in an AF. The others were easy enough. I'm confident that I could do that in half the time now that I know what they're like.
LP payouts for plexes are astonishingly high. I sense an implending flood of FW items into the market. This makes level 4 missions a joke. Orbit for 20 minutes in a frigate and get 25k LP. That's 1250 LP per rminute, or 100k LP per hour. At a good LP to isk conversion rate that comes to 100M isk per hour, not including tags. Or I could buy a ****-ton of datacores.
Make cloaks nonfunctional in FW plexes or this will be abused so badly it will break the FW item marketplace.
Next, I noted with some laughter that I could still dock in Gallente controlled stations. However, I could not use any of the station facilities. Still had access to my hangers. Rather pointless if you ask me.
I then asked a level 2 agent for a mission. His offer was 8 jumps away for a measly 1200LP and some petty cash. My response was "Are you ******* kidding me?" DECLINE.
Went back to farming LP and tags in my Rocket Hawk. "How do you kill that which has no life?" |
Bad Messenger
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
135
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 09:18:00 -
[372] - Quote
I did some FW plexing testing on sisi, it was bit buggy but it seems that Hans worst nightmare is coming with next expansion |
Mike Whiite
Progressive State State Section 9
45
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 11:45:00 -
[373] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:EDIT: I borked my math. HerpDerp
Make cloaks nonfunctional in FW plexes or this will be abused so badly it will break the FW item marketplace.
.
While cloaked the timer doesn't countdown always been that way |
Roki Romani
Rokirith Inc Genx 7
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 11:59:00 -
[374] - Quote
My poorly thought out idea for implementing diminishing returns:
Each faction has a fixed number of NPCs that it has to spread over its territory. The more territory a faction holds, the more thinly spread out defending NPCs are. |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
564
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 13:33:00 -
[375] - Quote
Quick update:
- Mechanical Engineering datacore offer have been added to all FW LP stores
- Graviton Physics datacore offer has been moved from the Amarr to the Caldari FW LP store
- Hydromagnetic Physics offer has been moved from Caldari to the Minmatar FW LP store
After listening to player feedback, main reason for such change was to keep a relatively balanced reward output for each faction, as Mechanical Engineering datacores are highly sought-after in their current form. |
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
944
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 14:53:00 -
[376] - Quote
Which still doesn't address the issue of "WTF do the non-racial datacores have to do with Faction Warfare".
|
lukozz
TunDraGon
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 15:27:00 -
[377] - Quote
When this patch comes Which date |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
970
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 15:51:00 -
[378] - Quote
lukozz wrote:When this patch comes Which date Inferno. May 22. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins Amarr 7th Fleet
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 16:53:00 -
[379] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:EDIT: I borked my math. HerpDerp
Ok, so I went to SISi to try out some FW content. For 6 hours I ran 1 Outpost, 4 Major Outposts, and a Major Stronghold. From a zero start, I accumulated 140k LP in about 6 hours. Major Stronghold was a ***** in an AF. The others were easy enough. I'm confident that I could do that in half the time now that I know what they're like.
LP payouts for plexes are astonishingly high. I sense an implending flood of FW items into the market. This makes level 4 missions a joke. Orbit for 20 minutes in a frigate and get 25k LP. That's 1250 LP per rminute, or 100k LP per hour. At a good LP to isk conversion rate that comes to 100M isk per hour, not including tags. Or I could buy a ****-ton of datacores.
Make cloaks nonfunctional in FW plexes or this will be abused so badly it will break the FW item marketplace.
Next, I noted with some laughter that I could still dock in Gallente controlled stations. However, I could not use any of the station facilities. Still had access to my hangers. Rather pointless if you ask me.
I then asked a level 2 agent for a mission. His offer was 8 jumps away for a measly 1200LP and some petty cash. My response was "Are you ******* kidding me?" DECLINE.
Went back to farming LP and tags in my Rocket Hawk.
A lot of us can finish a L4 mission that pays 35k LP in less than 5minutes. (Not counting travel.) Once I converted 1 mil LP at the rate of 7000 ISK/LP. I would like to hear your numbers again, especially "per hour". |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
417
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 17:00:00 -
[380] - Quote
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:Soldarius wrote:EDIT: I borked my math. HerpDerp
Ok, so I went to SISi to try out some FW content. For 6 hours I ran 1 Outpost, 4 Major Outposts, and a Major Stronghold. From a zero start, I accumulated 140k LP in about 6 hours. Major Stronghold was a ***** in an AF. The others were easy enough. I'm confident that I could do that in half the time now that I know what they're like.
LP payouts for plexes are astonishingly high. I sense an implending flood of FW items into the market. This makes level 4 missions a joke. Orbit for 20 minutes in a frigate and get 25k LP. That's 1250 LP per rminute, or 100k LP per hour. At a good LP to isk conversion rate that comes to 100M isk per hour, not including tags. Or I could buy a ****-ton of datacores.
Make cloaks nonfunctional in FW plexes or this will be abused so badly it will break the FW item marketplace.
Next, I noted with some laughter that I could still dock in Gallente controlled stations. However, I could not use any of the station facilities. Still had access to my hangers. Rather pointless if you ask me.
I then asked a level 2 agent for a mission. His offer was 8 jumps away for a measly 1200LP and some petty cash. My response was "Are you ******* kidding me?" DECLINE.
Went back to farming LP and tags in my Rocket Hawk. A lot of us can finish a L4 mission that pays 35k LP in less than 5minutes. (Not counting travel.) Once I converted 1 mil LP at the rate of 7000 ISK/LP. I would like to hear your numbers again, especially "per hour".
If all of the missions will go only to a hostile system the larger side can just pick a system to leave to the enemy. They will likely pick a ssytem next to their best agent so there will be no travel time. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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XOr Brasil
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 17:41:00 -
[381] - Quote
So PVP LPs are gonna be split between the fleet members of whoever get the killing blow instead of being based on the involved parties on the KM? So, if said Machariel worth 100k LPs is being killed by 10 ppl in a fleet, but the killing blow is done by a third party who decided to ***** on the KM and only took a shot at it while passing by but happenned to get a lucky killing shot, he'll be awarded all the LPs and the other players would get none, regardless of damage distribution?
I understand that dividing for fleet members has a nice touch to include logi pilots on the LP bounty prizes without requiring them to fit a non-logi module (and this is nice!), but I'd be seriously p****d if I lost the LPs for said fight just because the killing blow wasn't on my fleet. Why not do the sharing between all fleets that show on the KM, instead of only the killing blow?
I know KM whoring is gonna be a problem with LP payouts, but I'd rather lose 50% of the LPs for an "almost solo kill" than 100% of it! |
Rimase
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 11:49:00 -
[382] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1086098#post1086098
Rimase wrote:Let's destroy the Trade Capital! Militia being able to discourage trade at 'trade capitals' I suspect Militia may bring about plundering markets, changing economies where players have to relocate their goods for nominal value. Sounds oh-so cool making trade capitals fall and spreading players around the universe to different markets. Trade capitals are well-known, and so the human mind is to interact with others. Where there's more people there is more fun: Jita 4-4 has 1000+ occupants. How would war effect market?Solarsystem market taxes can immediately become so high to financially support local battles. This turns station's 'civilian market' into military support, supporting resupply of war's finances and services. Basically, when war is around the stations and planets within solarsystem become 'militarized'. an additional layer of tax is placed for each station's sovereign identity, and this credit is converted to Loyalty Points (FW) and Standings (Corp & Faction). The whole purpose to bring down 'trade capitals' and have players make either a profitable decision or a investment decision. The profitable decision is to go elsewhere. The investment decision is to support the station's faction to victory. This questions Faction warfare gameplay (new)For this to begin, the impending war must prompt all locals. This is done by Militia defiantly persevering a Constellation into 'peak activity', from which then a whole Constellation becomes a war siren. This tells Militia players where the battle is at to greater focus combat activity with auto-activated Military-class Cynosural Field Generators (NPC) and shake-up the local market. Those NPC Military-class Cynosural Field Generators are well-guarded opened by your sovereignty, are hacked by the enemy Militia to use and, most interestingly, hacked by Incursion invaders. Sansha's Nation could decidedly pour-blast through a disengaged Constellation alert in attempt to resolve and punish inactivity. How would this work, exactly? There may be a limit of active 'alerts' in Constellations like there are only a few Sansha's Nation Incursions. This denies covering the whole universe with Constellation alerts. This Constellation-wide alert gives stations if ever managed by one single capsuleer or corporation the option to have it support local warfare ('Militarized station' where Militia are resupplied and respawn freely). However, this makes that player a Militia target until the local Constellation becomes safe. How are Constellation war alerts triggered?? Most highest warfare activity within Constellation's solarsystems. Station conversions (two types):- Civilized Station - normal; solarsystem(s) (small) or constellation (big) do not give Militia free services.
- Militarized Station - applied additional heavy taxing to fund free services for Militia in Constellation.
What are the bonuses of 'militarized stations'?- Militia are supported with additional 'respawn locations' using Templar-grade Clones like those of DUST players & Fanfest trailer.
:: "Imagine the military application!" :: "The power they would have. They would be--" :: "Immortal."
- Militia are supported of station's finances and services, bringing Militia-class (T1 Improved) ship-loss reimbursements and and free services, whilst funding and servicing local 'Garrison Outposts'. This keeps Militia capsuleers incentives in correspondent to the responsible risks they've chosen and accepted.
- Any player using the station, paying the 'militia tax' will increase Standings (Corp & Faction) and Loyalty Points (FW) to them.
- They deny enemy docking the station even sometime after local Constellation faction warfare has ended.
What are the consequences of 'militarized stations'? Impose an additional, unavoidable 'militia tax' on players sub-sequently placing market orders, selling, buying, using services. This does not exempt Militia corporations. This is the instigation of this post: Militia can destroy player-selected 'trade capitals'! This disproves trade hubs and spreads players across the universe particularly away from Jita 4-4. - (Why CCP no improve Shareholding?): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=71032#post71032 |
Aebe Amraen
Logolepsy
13
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 00:55:00 -
[383] - Quote
I don't know if this has been asked already, but I read through all the Dev posts and didn't see an answer, so... can we get some details about how the market value will be calculated? Does it take all market transactions in all region into account, or just e.g. Jita? How fast will it react to changes in market value like the recent 40% increase in battleship costs--is it a daily average (reacts instantly), weekly average, monthly average?
Thanks! |
Ken Kyoukan
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 13:56:00 -
[384] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Quick update:
- Mechanical Engineering datacore offer have been added to all FW LP stores
- Graviton Physics datacore offer has been moved from the Amarr to the Caldari FW LP store
- Hydromagnetic Physics offer has been moved from Caldari to the Minmatar FW LP store
After listening to player feedback, main reason for such change was to keep a relatively balanced reward output for each faction, as Mechanical Engineering datacores are highly sought-after in their current form. Will these datacores still require the skillbooks to be trained to collect them or will you be removing those? Note: The Hydromagnetic Physics skill is currently a prerequisite of the Ice Processing skill. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 15:33:00 -
[385] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, here are some answers for you. * DO YOU CONSIDER DIMINISHING RETURNS FOR TAKING SPACE? Yes, as mentioned in the Dev Blog, we will possibly consider some ways of make it more difficult for one side to just take everything with ease - we could for example increase VPs to take additional systems, or use NPCs to assist an outmatched faction. Again, nothing is set in stone as this stage as we want to iterate on FW next release as well. * WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS OF TAKING SOVEREIGNTY? At the moment the Sovereignty changes are quite cosmetic sadly. However in the long run, we would really like Sovereignty to actually have an implication on the solar system as a whole (police / navy NPCs, stations, sentry guns etc...). That's the whole point after all, your faction conquered enemy space, and to the victor goes the spoils. * NO CHANGES TO FACTION NAVY / NPCS? Not for now, we ran out of time for Inferno. But we really want to have a look at the various NPCs next release. We will start with FW complex NPCs, then possibly have a look at mission and navy NPCs as well. We would like to redirect you to this thread if you want to help us fix them. * COMPLEX CAPTURE AND I-HUB STORED LP: you should still get LPs from capturing a complex even if the I-hub in the solar system has none. You get no LP for defending though. The way it works is: you gain 10,000 LPs from a minor site, 5,000 are taken from the enemy I-hub, if it had any LP stored in the first place. * LP STORE PRICE FLUCTUATION IS HUGE, THIS IS MADNESS! We do realize a 16x multiplier to be quite high, which is why we will keep looking at this situation and change it if need be. * DO YOU PLAN TO TWEAK LP STORE OFFERS? Yes, although not sure when, we definitely want to tweak this, make sure each separate faction has a different and interesting LP store in the first place. That includes revamping existing offers and creating new ones. * WHAT ABOUT CYNO JAMMERS? The idea was postponed after the feedback we received at Fanfest / forums. It's not out though, but initial discussions showed us that if there is one feature we need to carefully tread with, it's that one as it impacts a -lot- of third party players as well. * ARE FW COMPLEXES GOING TO BE LOOKED AT? Yes, we want to iterate at them, by changing the NPCs, and possibly restricting pirate ships from entering the small ones (pirate as in Dramiel, Cynabal ships, not pirate players ). The power gap between pirate and tech 1 hulls is just too great for a feature that is supposed to be friendly to new / casual players. However, we would still want navy ships to be able to go in, since you get them from the FW LP stores, it would promote a good incentive to spend LPs there. * THE DATACORES, IT'S OVER 9000?! Good point regarding mechanical engineering datacores, we will most likely spread this type out to all factions before release. Regarding the change itself, we will not actively adjust the RP amounts you have prior or after release. Which means players cashing in datacores that were worth 150 RP for 100 RP after release will get an advantage. Since the field multipliers are being removed, this change also means players will receive them slower, for 100 and 150 RP fields. But, since all of them now require 100 RP to be exchanged, it will be pretty balanced in the long run. R&D skills will unfortunately not be reimbursed as this profession is not going away - it will most likely be looked into and changed into a more active state separately in the future not to abandon players that invested time and effort into it. * WHO DROPS THE INFRASTRUCTURE HUB? No one; it is the nothing more than the old NPC control bunker that is being renamed, and as such, doesn't require logistic effort from anyone to be placed. There is also no need to remove all the LP out of it before it can be captured; all LP will automatically be wiped out when captured by the enemy faction. * ARE THERE ANY REWARDS FOR PODDING SOMEONE? Not at the moment * DO YOU GUYS PLAN TO ITERATE ON SYSTEM UPGRADES? Yes, as stated in the blog, we acknowledge current upgrades can be improved by a fair margin - we already received feedback and ideas coming from the CSM / community, and we would like to redirect you to this thread if you have suggestions. * DO YOU HAVE PLANS ON IMPROVING THE LP STORE INTERFACE? Oh yes, my precious, we do yes, we do. We absolutely despise its terrible, horrible current state. * WILL GALLENTE PILOTS BE REWARDED FOR CAPTURING AMARR PLEXES AND VICE-VERSA: yes, allied factions have been thought of, thus, a Gallente pilot capturing an Amarr FW complex, or a Caldari pilot capturing a Minmatar complex will get paid in their respective militia LP store for instance. Please note allied factions aren't paid for capturing Infrastructure Hubs however, as they can't shoot it in the first place. Hope that helps!
Thanks for the detailed and direct update, however I am left a bit confused by: "WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS OF TAKING SOVEREIGNTY? At the moment the Sovereignty changes are quite cosmetic sadly. However in the long run, we would really like Sovereignty to actually have an implication on the solar system as a whole (police / navy NPCs, stations, sentry guns etc...). That's the whole point after all, your faction conquered enemy space, and to the victor goes the spoils."
So.... capturing systems is NOT going to deny enemy faction from docking at stations or better yet deny using the services but allow them to dock? |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2364
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 19:20:00 -
[386] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote: So.... capturing systems is NOT going to deny enemy faction from docking at stations or better yet deny using the services but allow them to dock?
Docking restrictions are in full effect on SiSi at the moment (Try it! It really sucks if you don't own space.) and will be implemented with Inferno on May 22.
I'm pretty sure Ytterbium's talking about adding station fire and NPC's on top of the lockout mechanism, which is the first step they are taking to make Sov mean something.
If it "breaks the game" somehow, they're open to adjusting it. But as of right now its something everyone will have to adapt around till we see how it affects the warzone. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 22:12:00 -
[387] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Quick update:
- Mechanical Engineering datacore offer have been added to all FW LP stores
- Graviton Physics datacore offer has been moved from the Amarr to the Caldari FW LP store
- Hydromagnetic Physics offer has been moved from Caldari to the Minmatar FW LP store
After listening to player feedback, main reason for such change was to keep a relatively balanced reward output for each faction, as Mechanical Engineering datacores are highly sought-after in their current form.
Still crap ... why FW LP stores and not R&D corp LP stores? FW LP stores have nothing to do with R&D! |
Segana Tulanari
Most Deep Inside Miss Moneypenny
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 11:48:00 -
[388] - Quote
So, waht can we expect after this patch?
- Where can we buy the datacores? Only at FW LP stores? Or at RD-agent bases as it was before too? How do I pay with my research points at the FW LP store? Have I to exchange RP into LP? How?
- What the blog writer wanna tell us with the table (Faction, RP Points, kind of datacores)? Is there a simple way to give a table a name (what the table shows us?)? Is the table for FW LP oder R&D or what ever?
- What happens with the RP during the patch for 50 and 150 RP/datacores? Will they transformed to the new prices (double the 50 RPs and divide the 150 RP by 1,5) by the patch? Or do I have to get the 50 RP datacores before the patch to be fine?
It was unusual for CCP, that a dev blog leaves so simple questions unanswered. You can it better ;)
regards, Sega |
Maru Sha
The Department of Justice
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 12:18:00 -
[389] - Quote
Vanessa Vansen wrote:Still crap ... why FW LP stores and not R&D corp LP stores? FW LP stores have nothing to do with R&D!
Agreed. From a game master point of view - I understand that a passive datacore income is not what is intended to be, but - there is no obvious reason why datacores as part of R&D should become part of factional warfare - and why something belonging to the profession of R&D does not need any skill from this section to acquire it (datacore) because anybody can access it through the LP store - and if at all why not putting those datacores in the LP store of NPC corps with R&D activities (either they have player accessible R&D agents or a clear corp description to be R&D focused), even though I still think R&D related skills should be somehow a requirement to access them.
CCP Ytterbium wrote: While our current intention is to turn datacore gathering into more of an active profession than it currently is, we will be following feedback closely to make sure players that invested time into Research corporations are not abandoned, most likely by making further changes to them in the next release.
Why don't you wait with the whole datacore business until you have a real and overall solution for it, instead of implementing something which you "most likely" don't even know how "further changes" will look like.
Other than that I'm looking forward to the factional warfare changes and hope we can return to the fun times we had in the first months of FW. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
424
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 14:01:00 -
[390] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote: So.... capturing systems is NOT going to deny enemy faction from docking at stations or better yet deny using the services but allow them to dock?
Docking restrictions are in full effect on SiSi at the moment (Try it! It really sucks if you don't own space.) and will be implemented with Inferno on May 22. I'm pretty sure Ytterbium's talking about adding station fire and NPC's on top of the lockout mechanism, which is the first step they are taking to make Sov mean something. If it "breaks the game" somehow, they're open to adjusting it. But as of right now its something everyone will have to adapt around till we see how it affects the warzone.
Breaks the game for whom? For casual pvpers or for those who prefer null sec strategies applied to faction war?
Also are they going to fix the plexing bug before inferno launches? Or are the minmatar going to be able to roll into inferno with a huge advantage that was due in part to exploits? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
115
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 18:45:00 -
[391] - Quote
Cearain wrote:...Also are they going to fix the plexing bug before inferno launches? Or are the minmatar going to be able to roll into inferno with a huge advantage that was due in part to exploits? Advantage, yes .. exploits, no. Shoddy mechanics and balance is what it is, pretty sure that were the shoe on the other foot "we" (still not I, for I am 'honest') would milk flaws for all it was worth. If you see someone intentionally using a bug (ie. exploit) then report them .. it is unfortunately all we can do. Personally gave up ages ago when repeat offenders kept flying around even after I provided visual proof within seconds of transgression. If they manage to keep on schedule and complete Inferno roll-out in 4 months then we "may" have a level playing field for christmas .. albeit one where we will be striking out from high-sec |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
425
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 19:00:00 -
[392] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Cearain wrote:...Also are they going to fix the plexing bug before inferno launches? Or are the minmatar going to be able to roll into inferno with a huge advantage that was due in part to exploits? Advantage, yes .. exploits, no. Shoddy mechanics and balance is what it is, pretty sure that were the shoe on the other foot "we" (still not I, for I am 'honest') would milk flaws for all it was worth. If you see someone intentionally using a bug (ie. exploit) then report them .. it is unfortunately all we can do. Personally gave up ages ago when repeat offenders kept flying around even after I provided visual proof within seconds of transgression. If they manage to keep on schedule and complete Inferno roll-out in 4 months then we "may" have a level playing field for christmas .. albeit one where we will be striking out from high-sec
I'm not sure I follow you. After inferno it will be much harder to flip a system than it is now. Not only will we not be able to dock there but it will take 5xs as long. The bugs help the side holding more systems before the rules are changed with inferno. Regardless of which side I was on I would want some opportunity for both sides to fight for occupancy before the systems are basically set in stone by the inferno mechanics.
CCP still has not fixed well known bugs, that have been acknowledged for months. These bugs break the core mechanic of faction war from which all these consequences come.. This is why its really hard to take ccp serious when they claim they are not just throwing this expansion out to let it sit abandonned. Please ccp start with the game breaking bugs. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Aebe Amraen
Logolepsy
13
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 21:47:00 -
[393] - Quote
Segana Tulanari wrote:So, waht can we expect after this patch?
- Where can we buy the datacores? Only at FW LP stores? Or at RD-agent bases as it was before too? How do I pay with my research points at the FW LP store? Have I to exchange RP into LP? How?
- What the blog writer wanna tell us with the table (Faction, RP Points, kind of datacores)? Is there a simple way to give a table a name (what the table shows us?)? Is the table for FW LP oder R&D or what ever?
- What happens with the RP during the patch for 50 and 150 RP/datacores? Will they transformed to the new prices (double the 50 RPs and divide the 150 RP by 1,5) by the patch? Or do I have to get the 50 RP datacores before the patch to be fine?
It was unusual for CCP, that a dev blog leaves so simple questions unanswered. You can it better ;) regards, Sega
All of these questions have been answered.
1. Datacores will still be available from RD agents as before. However, the price is doubling, IIRC. You do not pay with research points at the FW LP store. You cannot exchange RP into LP. You earn FW LP by doing FW.
2. The table is for FW LP. I don't understand the rest of this question.
3. Your RP remain as they are after the patch, so you're better off getting the datacores before the patch.
I don't even do FW or RD agents, but I still knew the answers to all your questions off the top of my head. You can it better ;) |
Segana Tulanari
Most Deep Inside Miss Moneypenny
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 07:59:00 -
[394] - Quote
Aebe Amraen wrote:I don't understand the rest of this question.
Simple ;) Give a table a name. Most people studied informatics, physics... know this. Writing concepts is a part of education (in Germany it is) on universities. And I do not think, that CCP employed hobby developers. And if these blogs are a kind of concept, they should leave no answers. Also migrations scenarios (old RP into new RP situation) should be a part of.
regards....
|
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 16:53:00 -
[395] - Quote
Quote:A change mentioned during Fanfest concerns datacores and research agents in general. While we do acknowledge that initial the initial period to train up for high-level research agents take times, effort and money, we are not particularly fond of the passive datacore income in general. Indeed, once the initial requirements are met, this is not so much of an active profession and more of a passive collection of items, which we want to look at.
Well, T2 BPOs are the same ... once the initial requirements are met, it's passive ... but I don't read anythting about changing that -> When are you going to remove T2 BPOs? They are passive as well if you compare it with invention.
Quote:As such, we are removing all field multipliers on research fields, while unifying RP amount to claim one datacore to 100. While this actually double amount of RPs to claim a datacore, we also are introducing a small 10,000 ISK fee per datacore to ensure there is a small cost tied to their retrieval.
Good idea, keep it simple!
Quote:We also are introducing datacores to the Factional Warfare LP stores, spilt into each individual faction so there is no market overlap. They are tied to the War Zone control effect on LP store prices, that means offers will dramatically change depending on which side is winning.
Wait ... why? What's the in game explanation? How could or why would the R&D corps let that happen?
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Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 21:23:00 -
[396] - Quote
Caesar Rae wrote:SigmaPi wrote:Hormus wrote:Datacores is the main source of price difference between T2 BPO and T2 BPC manufactured items. If datacores get more expensive, ppl that manufacture with invention will have to increase prices - but those with T2 BPO's are not affected. So, the shamefull gap between T2 BPO owners and the rest manufacturers will get bigger. Bad move, CCP. That's a load of bull. The #1 price point is from the negative ME - that translates to a huge amount of waste on bpcs. The datacores are almost negligable in all cases to the price of the final product. I know - I do invention as my primary income. If T2 BPO's operate the same way as T1 BPO's (unfortunately I have never seen one) then the first person is correct. T2 BPO's do not have the issues with datacore costs or negative ME and PE from invention and thus any cost changes to datacores will make thier products cheaper to market.
T2 BPOs are limited by production time, just like T2 BPCs. If demand outstrips the supply of the number of T2 BPOs working 24/7, then there's room for invention which can far outstrip a single T2 BPOs ability to produce modules/ships. |
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 21:40:00 -
[397] - Quote
Davion Falcon wrote:Caesar Rae wrote:SigmaPi wrote:Hormus wrote:Datacores is the main source of price difference between T2 BPO and T2 BPC manufactured items. If datacores get more expensive, ppl that manufacture with invention will have to increase prices - but those with T2 BPO's are not affected. So, the shamefull gap between T2 BPO owners and the rest manufacturers will get bigger. Bad move, CCP. That's a load of bull. The #1 price point is from the negative ME - that translates to a huge amount of waste on bpcs. The datacores are almost negligable in all cases to the price of the final product. I know - I do invention as my primary income. If T2 BPO's operate the same way as T1 BPO's (unfortunately I have never seen one) then the first person is correct. T2 BPO's do not have the issues with datacore costs or negative ME and PE from invention and thus any cost changes to datacores will make thier products cheaper to market. T2 BPOs are limited by production time, just like T2 BPCs. If demand outstrips the supply of the number of T2 BPOs working 24/7, then there's room for invention which can far outstrip a single T2 BPOs ability to produce modules/ships. It might be right that T2 BPOs are not able to cover the whole supply, but they will get more passive income, since they don't have to invent anything. Since those inventing will have to adjust their price due to higher costs.
In short, CCP is reducing the income of one source of passive income by raising the income of another source of passive income.
I use to call T2 BPOs passive income, since that's what they are if you compare they steps to get from 0 to the T2 product. T2 BPO - buy the material, build the stuff, done Invention - Acquire a BPC & invention material, invent (eventually repeat those steps), buy the material, build the stuff, done |
Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 21:47:00 -
[398] - Quote
Vanessa Vansen wrote:Davion Falcon wrote:Caesar Rae wrote:SigmaPi wrote:Hormus wrote:Datacores is the main source of price difference between T2 BPO and T2 BPC manufactured items. If datacores get more expensive, ppl that manufacture with invention will have to increase prices - but those with T2 BPO's are not affected. So, the shamefull gap between T2 BPO owners and the rest manufacturers will get bigger. Bad move, CCP. That's a load of bull. The #1 price point is from the negative ME - that translates to a huge amount of waste on bpcs. The datacores are almost negligable in all cases to the price of the final product. I know - I do invention as my primary income. If T2 BPO's operate the same way as T1 BPO's (unfortunately I have never seen one) then the first person is correct. T2 BPO's do not have the issues with datacore costs or negative ME and PE from invention and thus any cost changes to datacores will make thier products cheaper to market. T2 BPOs are limited by production time, just like T2 BPCs. If demand outstrips the supply of the number of T2 BPOs working 24/7, then there's room for invention which can far outstrip a single T2 BPOs ability to produce modules/ships. It might be right that T2 BPOs are not able to cover the whole supply, but they will get more passive income, since they don't have to invent anything. Since those inventing will have to adjust their price due to higher costs. In short, CCP is reducing the income of one source of passive income by raising the income of another source of passive income. I use to call T2 BPOs passive income, since that's what they are if you compare they steps to get from 0 to the T2 product. T2 BPO - buy the material, build the stuff, done Invention - Acquire a BPC & invention material, invent (eventually repeat those steps), buy the material, build the stuff, done
Passive income with a terrible, terrible return on investment. The ROI for a T2 BPO is what, 3-5 years assuming 24/7 operations? Even selling the BPO and investing in capital BPO copying (even more passive since all you'd have to do is reset jobs once a month) would produce far better return on capital AND higher income/month. |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 00:45:00 -
[399] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Quick update:
- Mechanical Engineering datacore offer have been added to all FW LP stores
- Graviton Physics datacore offer has been moved from the Amarr to the Caldari FW LP store
- Hydromagnetic Physics offer has been moved from Caldari to the Minmatar FW LP store
After listening to player feedback, main reason for such change was to keep a relatively balanced reward output for each faction, as Mechanical Engineering datacores are highly sought-after in their current form.
Perhaps you should listen to the player feedback about Docking.. You guys might produce a bit of extra interest in FW for a few months (6 if we are lucky) Then it's gonna be nothing more than a few hardcores here & there and farming alts.
FW was already in pitiful shape due to being ignored as long as it's been ignored but seriously the whole sov mechanics are going to drive most people away. Effectively the fight is being won right now pre-patch. Once the patch comes the lines are drawn and it's pretty much over.
FW has always sorted it's self out when one side had advantage over other given enough time.. However these changes pretty much cement the side in best position prior to this update and will never allow the other side to come back. We can not fight for systems in plexes if we can't reship. It's that simple.
The station lock out for the most part is counterproductive to plexing mechanics and FW will just be turned to farmville for ISk hoarders.
It's rather ironic that all this time FW has been ignored it never died off, but soon as CCP decided to start working on it.. they will likely be putting the nails in it's coffin.
In all honestly, the only reason I'm even staying around as CEO of a corp with 50+ guys in FW, is because we have put a lot of effort into building a corp with-in FW on one of the under-dogs sides. Looking at these changes I can only hope they aren't as bad as I'm expecting them to be, but in all honestly I really think they will be just as bad as I expect. |
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 06:36:00 -
[400] - Quote
Davion Falcon wrote:...
Passive income with a terrible, terrible return on investment. The ROI for a T2 BPO is what, 3-5 years assuming 24/7 operations? Even selling the BPO and investing in capital BPO copying (even more passive since all you'd have to do is reset jobs once a month) would produce far better return on capital AND higher income/month.
True about the return on investment but there are two ways of producing some of the T2 products:
The "passive" one via T2 BPOs without invention and higher profits. The "active" one with invention and lower profits.
As said active/passive due to the fact that both ways end up in building a T2 product. In addition, you don't know if that T2 item was made via T2 BPO or via invention.
For copying there is no 2nd way to get a BPC. Either there exists a T1 BPO or it's a faction/plex drop The only exception is the customs office (which is a crap way, but CCP does not care) |
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
118
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 08:05:00 -
[401] - Quote
Vanessa Vansen wrote:Wait ... why? What's the in game explanation? How could or why would the R&D corps let that happen? CCP stopped caring about such things a long time ago .. the fact that they have zero writers (chronicles being written by anyone with idea/time) on their roster speaks volumes. Eve is now a pure grind-fest MMO like all the themepark/hybrids on the market with no official support for the RPG element.
Why are you and others so concerned about the datacore change? Datacores are a minute part of the total cost of invention, the much larger 'cost' comes from the -ME of output .. especially when it comes to ship hulls. Datacores would have to increase in price by an unreasonable amount to create a noticeable T2 market tremor .. and the change will have been rolled back or watered down long before that happens.
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Jalmari Huitsikko
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
58
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 10:20:00 -
[402] - Quote
production of general type items like datacores should not be tied to faction warfare, while i agree passively producing them is kind of dumb idea.
you have to realize while roleplayers and other silly people may connect your race, items and ships in one bunch that does not really work like that. production of any type of racial ship cannot be depending on who is winning in faction warfare even for sllightest.
participating in this kind of roleplaying activity should be 100% voluntary we should not be forced to join and support faction warfare, even in theory.
people doing faction warfare defend their demands by claiming that it is only way to do pvp outside blob warfare which is not true. on contrary majority of them seem to lack willpower and skill to try anything seriously but make up some silly demands of rewards, which is ridiculous considering faction warfare pve activity currently produces pretty nice money with low risk. (yes i've been there done that)
i agree that faction warfare pvp should have rewards to make people feel like they achieve something but do not drag other people in it.
thank you. |
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 12:23:00 -
[403] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Vanessa Vansen wrote:Wait ... why? What's the in game explanation? How could or why would the R&D corps let that happen? CCP stopped caring about such things a long time ago .. the fact that they have zero writers (chronicles being written by anyone with idea/time) on their roster speaks volumes. Eve is now a pure grind-fest MMO like all the themepark/hybrids on the market with no official support for the RPG element. Why are you and others so concerned about the datacore change? Datacores are a minute part of the total cost of invention, the much larger 'cost' comes from the -ME of output .. especially when it comes to ship hulls. Datacores would have to increase in price by an unreasonable amount to create a noticeable T2 market tremor .. and the change will have been rolled back or watered down long before that happens.
I wouldn't mind as much as I do if there were no T2 BPOs. Then it would affect each and everyone.
Like this it only worsens the profit of those who already have less profit, while T2 BPO owners will make more profit. It might just be a small part of the profit but you have to stand up and say "NO" to changes that get implemented only because CCP likes it that way. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
119
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 13:58:00 -
[404] - Quote
Vanessa Vansen wrote:I wouldn't mind as much as I do if there were no T2 BPOs. Then it would affect each and everyone.
Like this it only worsens the profit of those who already have less profit, while T2 BPO owners will make more profit. It might just be a small part of the profit but you have to stand up and say "NO" to changes that get implemented only because CCP likes it that way. As I said, invention profits are restricted by the poor quality output which means far greater material costs for the end products. BPO's have a lower profit margin than invention if you do the rational thing and count the pennies per hour spent rather than per run .. the fact that one can only ever build from that one print (copy time = build time) severely hampers the overall profits. There is a reason why most BPO holders are also heavily invested in the invention part of things, higher quantity and insulated from market fluctuations due to diversity/ability to change gears.
If you are really concerned about invention lacking the competitive edge against BPO's, then support the various efforts to have CCP add a post-processing step to invention .. one where the ME/PE of the individual BPC can be improved by investing that most precious commodity: Time (and a smattering of ISK). Try to run the numbers and see just how insane the difference is if the BPC's could be taken to a measly ME0 .. that is where the cash cow is pastured
In Short: You are barking up the wrong tree and/or using the wrong thread. It is better to bring the debate about BPO vs. Invention up in the industry thread which will arrive SoonGäó (ref: CSM summit topics). |
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
40
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 16:56:00 -
[405] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Vanessa Vansen wrote:I wouldn't mind as much as I do if there were no T2 BPOs. Then it would affect each and everyone.
Like this it only worsens the profit of those who already have less profit, while T2 BPO owners will make more profit. It might just be a small part of the profit but you have to stand up and say "NO" to changes that get implemented only because CCP likes it that way. As I said, invention profits are restricted by the poor quality output which means far greater material costs for the end products. BPO's have a lower profit margin than invention if you do the rational thing and count the pennies per hour spent rather than per run .. the fact that one can only ever build from that one print (copy time = build time) severely hampers the overall profits. There is a reason why most BPO holders are also heavily invested in the invention part of things, higher quantity and insulated from market fluctuations due to diversity/ability to change gears. If you are really concerned about invention lacking the competitive edge against BPO's, then support the various efforts to have CCP add a post-processing step to invention .. one where the ME/PE of the individual BPC can be improved by investing that most precious commodity: Time (and a smattering of ISK). Try to run the numbers and see just how insane the difference is if the BPC's could be taken to a measly ME0 .. that is where the cash cow is pastured In Short: You are barking up the wrong tree and/or using the wrong thread. It is better to bring the debate about BPO vs. Invention up in the industry thread which will arrive SoonGäó (ref: CSM summit topics).
Well, I don't have a T2 BPO but I assume they do work as do T1 BPOs. For T1 BPOs (at least for those I had a look at) making a single copy take two or three times as long as manufacturing, however I didn't compare that with the time to build the final (T2) product. So, I think there are a lot of numbers around and we could make our point.
My point, T2 BPOs have an unfair advantage over invention, changing datacores will increase it, if only a bit. Hence, I rant about T2 BPOs and the change in datacores. As mentioned, I might be wrong, since I don't own a T2 BPO. |
Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 19:43:00 -
[406] - Quote
Vanessa Vansen wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:Vanessa Vansen wrote:I wouldn't mind as much as I do if there were no T2 BPOs. Then it would affect each and everyone.
Like this it only worsens the profit of those who already have less profit, while T2 BPO owners will make more profit. It might just be a small part of the profit but you have to stand up and say "NO" to changes that get implemented only because CCP likes it that way. As I said, invention profits are restricted by the poor quality output which means far greater material costs for the end products. BPO's have a lower profit margin than invention if you do the rational thing and count the pennies per hour spent rather than per run .. the fact that one can only ever build from that one print (copy time = build time) severely hampers the overall profits. There is a reason why most BPO holders are also heavily invested in the invention part of things, higher quantity and insulated from market fluctuations due to diversity/ability to change gears. If you are really concerned about invention lacking the competitive edge against BPO's, then support the various efforts to have CCP add a post-processing step to invention .. one where the ME/PE of the individual BPC can be improved by investing that most precious commodity: Time (and a smattering of ISK). Try to run the numbers and see just how insane the difference is if the BPC's could be taken to a measly ME0 .. that is where the cash cow is pastured In Short: You are barking up the wrong tree and/or using the wrong thread. It is better to bring the debate about BPO vs. Invention up in the industry thread which will arrive SoonGäó (ref: CSM summit topics). Well, I don't have a T2 BPO but I assume they do work as do T1 BPOs. For T1 BPOs (at least for those I had a look at) making a single copy take two or three times as long as manufacturing, however I didn't compare that with the time to build the final (T2) product. So, I think there are a lot of numbers around and we could make our point. My point, T2 BPOs have an unfair advantage over invention, changing datacores will increase it, if only a bit. Hence, I rant about T2 BPOs and the change in datacores. As mentioned, I might be wrong, since I don't own a T2 BPO.
Leveling the accusation "it's unfair!" in Eve is silliness at best, foolish stupidity at worst. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. Never forgotten, never forgiven. |
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
40
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 16:11:00 -
[407] - Quote
Davion Falcon wrote:Vanessa Vansen wrote:...
My point, T2 BPOs have an unfair advantage over invention, changing datacores will increase it, if only a bit. Hence, I rant about T2 BPOs and the change in datacores. As mentioned, I might be wrong, since I don't own a T2 BPO. Leveling the accusation "it's unfair!" in Eve is silliness at best, foolish stupidity at worst.
I claim both for myself but I just had to shout it out although in space nobody hears you scream (see patch notes) |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
194
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 21:18:00 -
[408] - Quote
It's nice to see that the biggest topic about the changes to FW are people talking about data core that are likely just current farm alts now.. Meaning the soon to be only interest in FW will be from farm alts in 6 months time or less..
The fights themselves over the space and ISK has already been made pre-patch day.. Any changes from now will likely because everyone gets bored and leaves. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
427
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 21:55:00 -
[409] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:It's nice to see that the biggest topic about the changes to FW are people talking about data core that are likely just current farm alts now.. Meaning the soon to be only interest in FW will be from farm alts in 6 months time or less..
The fights themselves over the space and ISK has already been made pre-patch day.. Any changes from now will likely because everyone gets bored and leaves.
Faction will not be empty any more than null sec will be empty.
It's just that faction war will not have the casual small gang pvp appeal that we hoped ccp would build on. Instead they scrapped that entirely, and turned it into a stepping stone to null sec. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Mutnin
SQUIDS.
195
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 22:42:00 -
[410] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Mutnin wrote:It's nice to see that the biggest topic about the changes to FW are people talking about data core that are likely just current farm alts now.. Meaning the soon to be only interest in FW will be from farm alts in 6 months time or less..
The fights themselves over the space and ISK has already been made pre-patch day.. Any changes from now will likely because everyone gets bored and leaves. Faction will not be empty any more than null sec will be empty. It's just that faction war will not have the casual small gang pvp appeal that we hoped ccp would build on. Instead they scrapped that entirely, and turned it into a stepping stone to null sec.
FW space is a lot more active than most of null sec. Saying it will not be anymore empty than null is not saying it will be very active. |
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Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet Bruderschaft der Pilger
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 09:04:00 -
[411] - Quote
With the patch notes out I do even see a higher chance that we will see a situation in a few months where 2 factions will control 100% of their battlefield.
With 20% bonus on LP and prices at 25% - why should anyone try to fight for the losing side? Just to pay 4 times the normal amounts of LP in the shop?!? Certainly not.
There will be 2 "farming" factions with nearly 100% control and very cheap LP shops and 2 "hunting" factions with 0% control and only a few pilots who are after all not interested in LP at all but only want to shoot careless farmers. Thats what I expect.
Oh, that and the whole galaxy will only use faction stuff from the farming faction since it's sooo cheap. |
Iyotaka
Iyotaka Union
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 18:31:00 -
[412] - Quote
Sure, Data Core Collection was boring - but it was just one aspect of being a builder. Data Cores are a resource needed for Invention. The active part was using them to do Invention. Now you are just forcing me to do something else to manage cost of Invention, or stop with my active passion - Invention. Sounds like, to do Invention at reduced cost, I will have to learn pvp.
Two paths I can see: stop doing Invention, or be surprised that data core costs have gone done because so many are being harvested via Factional Warfare. This is not what I expect.... Unfortunately many of the most expensive cores (isk wise) are now also twice as expensive RP point wise - was only gaining 50 points over the last months - so am only getting half of what I expected to harvest. The starship datacores were often the cheapest to buy and they cost even less RP than before. Read: expensive are more expensive; cheap are even cheaper.
But I guess we all have our nerfs we have to live through. I learned that long ago. |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 04:22:00 -
[413] - Quote
Can we fix this?
Sort should be proper, with highest on top. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2387
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 16:17:00 -
[414] - Quote
I'm on it already, but thanks for pointing it out! I'm talking about it with the devs on Skype, it should be a straightforward thing to fix. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
430
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 16:28:00 -
[415] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I'm on it already, but thanks for pointing it out! I'm talking about it with the devs on Skype, it should be a straightforward thing to fix.
Is there a way to tell where the most recent changes occurred? And whether those changes helped or hurt. I.E., I would like to know where the enemy is plexing so I can fight them. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 16:38:00 -
[416] - Quote
The addition of datacores to FW makes no sense to me. You're expecting industrialists to join FW, ruin their standings with 2 factions, divert skills to being able to fight rather than continuing with industrial skills? I don't get it.
If the only issue was to eliminate effortless farming, there were much better ways to do it. Less RP from sitting around and more from running missions for that agent, offer the missions more often, limit the amount of RP you can save with any agent (cap it), or come up with a new mechanic that industrialists could do.
If the issue is giving better rewards to FW, why don't you ask them what they want? I doubt that datacores would have been high on the list. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
430
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 16:47:00 -
[417] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:The addition of datacores to FW makes no sense to me. You're expecting industrialists to join FW, ruin their standings with 2 factions, divert skills to being able to fight rather than continuing with industrial skills? I don't get it.
If the only issue was to eliminate effortless farming, there were much better ways to do it. Less RP from sitting around and more from running missions for that agent, offer the missions more often, limit the amount of RP you can save with any agent (cap it), or come up with a new mechanic that industrialists could do.
If the issue is giving better rewards to FW, why don't you ask them what they want? I doubt that datacores would have been high on the list.
What they did with faction war in this expansion had little to do with what people in faction war wanted. CCP said they wanted to make faction war a stepping stone for null sec. So that is what they did. Some people in faction war like that, some don't. I don't think their views really mattered to ccp. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2388
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 16:48:00 -
[418] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I'm on it already, but thanks for pointing it out! I'm talking about it with the devs on Skype, it should be a straightforward thing to fix. Is there a way to tell where the most recent changes occurred? And whether those changes helped or hurt. I.E., I would like to know where the enemy is plexing so I can fight them.
I don't think so, other than someone keeping an eye on the percentages for change. But remember, this UI is just a framework upon which more will be added, so that's certainly something I can suggest.
The fun thing about last night was watching how quickly that Warzone Control bar moved back and forth, The Amarr had almost stripped the Minnies of their beloved half-price LP store bonus we poured our entire LP savings to obtain, taking away 5% in just a couple hours and putting us on the brink of tier 3 instead of tier 4. Nice work! Keep at it.
Every plex now has a sense of urgency, since stripping the enemy of their system upgrades hurts their warzone control far more than by simply seizing a single system. This is because the most efficient way to earn WZ control points is to upgrade several lower level systems instead of spending it all in the same place. For example, the 30,000 LP it takes to earn (1) WZ control point by upgrading to level 5 from level 4, could be used to bump 2 other systems from level 1 to level 2, earning (2) WZ control points instead.
Based on the activity we're already seeing emerge (much of the contesting was taking place in Metropolis systems by the time I logged last night) we should end up with a lot of backwater plexing and counter-plexing by small distributed gangs or solo pilots, since there's way more warzone impact a faction can inflict by spreading out instead of concentrating in a front-line system.
The underdog will of course still have to come up with a plan for taking systems to increase their own WZ control benefits, but taking systems itself isn't mission critical if you just want to hurt the enemy's economy. There is plenty of pain that the small skirmish groups can inflict, which is really encouraging.
Keep sharing your stories and experiences as events unfold! The war is LIVE and the lines are moving.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
430
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 17:09:00 -
[419] - Quote
You guys should be able to get to level 5 even without taking any additional systems shoudln't you?
Level 5 should give you everything in the store at 25% the lp and isk cost right?
At level 4 you get half price? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2388
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 17:13:00 -
[420] - Quote
Cearain wrote: What they did with faction war in this expansion had little to do with what people in faction war wanted. CCP said they wanted to make faction war a stepping stone for null sec. So that is what they did. Some people in faction war like that, some don't. I don't think their views really mattered to ccp.
You can keep copypasting this stepping stone buzzword over and over again, but its patently untrue. FW players have suggested ALL of the following over the last three years, anyone studying historical threads can find these ideas plain and simple, whether or not each of you are completely satisfied with their specific implementation:
- LP for plexing - Increased LP for kills - Consequence to loss (including station lockout) - Passive upgrades to systems based on control - Tiered systems of upgrades - An overhauled UI - Useful warzone data
Stuff CCP is working or going to work on but didn't quite make the deadline: (Each being player-requested features as well)
- Any remaining plexing bugs - Additional system upgrades, including cynojammers (a null mechanic VERY popular among the current FW community) - NPC balancing in missions, complexes - Improved ranking system - Revamping plex permissions (fixing pirate frigs / cruisers and coming up with a more sensible hierarchy of ship types allowed)
If you don't like all those things, blame the community. These are the items that have been stickied at the top of the main FW feedback thread, they are what I asked CSM6 to talk to CCP about last fall, they're what I've talked about during the election, they're what everyone's been saying for years. This idea that CCP disregarded the community couldn't be further from the truth. They've disregarded an angry portion of the community, but that is true of literally everything they've ever changed about the game. Granted, if you're in that angry portion, it feels like great injustice, but that doesn't mean that CCP doesn't care about players in general.
The bottom line is, until FW becomes about sovereignty blockade units and engaging in capital fleet structure shoots to control space, until we have massive expanses of space with little stations, until we have player-built outposts, until we have bubbles and bombs affecting the fluidity of small gang combat, FW gameplay will never be akin to null sec, except for a few overlapping mechanics.
The confusion that caused this silly "nullsec lite" notion to persist is that CCP once suggested using FW mechanics to augment 0.0 sovereignty mechanics, not the other way around. The documentation of this discussion was poor, and players assumed the worst.
If anything, 0.0 should be far more afraid that they'll end up with a "FW lite" system than we should be of getting more null sec game play rammed down our throats as you suggest.
For the rest of you, I hope you enjoy the long-overdue changes and take the time to help the developers out by letting them know what you'd like to see next! Keep me up to date on the bugs, issues, ideas for iterations as you test out the new tools, I love hearing from you all. Send me a mail or a convo in-game anytime.
Future changes discussion threads:
FW I-hub and system upgrades
FW: rebalancing NPCs and you Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2388
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 17:22:00 -
[421] - Quote
Cearain wrote:You guys should be able to get to level 5 even without taking any additional systems shoudln't you?
Level 5 should give you everything in the store at 25% the lp and isk cost right?
At level 4 you get half price?
I believe so, not sure about the exact math on the system captures, we're close. But the Amarr are pushing back hard, obtaining level 5 will be quite difficult as long as there's aggressive plexing activity keeping that bar falling. Like I said, we almost lost level 4 if we haven't already, and I have a feeling the Amarrian plexing machine is just getting warmed up.
Minnies - we best not be resting on our laurels and declaring victory, as we're going to have to fight the plexers to maintain those privilieges. We also dumped our reserves to achieve level 4, that was investing almost everything every pilot had (besides a few greedy pilots rushing to buy the cheap faction ships who might have bumped us to level 5 had they not gone for the quick isk). Now that the Amarr are keeping the percentage falling at all times, the Minmatar have to step it up and find ways to earn that LP back and reinvest. or we'll never get close to level 5 again. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
724
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 18:19:00 -
[422] - Quote
defensive plexing feedback:
please make that less painfull suggestions: - 2x faster timer - or at least a small LP reward
if you sit at the flag, nobody enters and nothing happens it totally feels like wasted time a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
430
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 19:03:00 -
[423] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: What they did with faction war in this expansion had little to do with what people in faction war wanted. CCP said they wanted to make faction war a stepping stone for null sec. So that is what they did. Some people in faction war like that, some don't. I don't think their views really mattered to ccp.
You can keep copypasting this stepping stone buzzword over and over again, but its patently untrue.
Hans
CCP keeps saying the inferno fw changes were intended to make it a stepping stone to null sec. Why don't you believe them?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTflpRVu3Kc
At least one other dev publicly said the same thing.
Moreover, you continue to misrepresent the community. What one or 2 people suggest is not what the community wanted. Your thread in eve general is what got the faction war community behind you.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18015
Please show me the part of that thread were we had any sort of consensus on station lock outs for the side that is losing.
In fact you even proposed on assembly hall the lesser consequence of having station guns fire on pilots. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=42240
And yes you have good old hwong jian proposing lock outs. He has been posting everywhere how great it is from his non-faction war npc corp. But other than that the response was that even that consequence was too much.
Hans I will agree that this inferno change has brought many good changes.
But you are becoming such a foaming cheerleader you are ignoring ccp own statements about their intent, misrepresenting what the community that elected you wanted, and misrepresenting what inferno does.
On that last point its laughable that you claim station lockouts are a nerf to running missions in stealth bombers. Really you are becoming so biased you are hardly even coherent.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
724
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 19:31:00 -
[424] - Quote
docking rights are a good thing. They realy are not the issue of the current system.
The main problem in my opinion is that the weaker faction has almost no chance to recover. Nobody will buy navy geddons for 1mil lp right now. The longer this state holds on the weaker the faction will get overall. Docking rights are totaly irrelevant. We still can dock in 11 stations. Even IF we would lose ALL of them we could dock 1j away from a FW system...
So how to solve that problem? Instead of doing the "math thing" and calculating the lp prices through war progress CCP could approach it differently.
Lets say every system gives the faction a certain set of LP offers. So instead of having no reason at all to buy something from the store, the weaker faction could still buy SOMETHING to REASONABLE prices from the store. Balancing this is a bit more work as implementing a simple formula for lp prices obviously. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
430
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 19:49:00 -
[425] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:docking rights are a good thing. They realy are not the issue of the current system.
The main problem in my opinion is that the weaker faction has almost no chance to recover. Nobody will buy navy geddons for 1mil lp right now. The longer this state holds on the weaker the faction will get overall. Docking rights are totaly irrelevant. ...
Sure we can recover! We can plex the systems back.
The problem is its hard to plex when you can't occassionally dock up and fix the damage that the rats do. So the most common solutions are to:
1) gimp your ship with an active tank and thereby warp whenever an enemy comes
2) only plex in systems close to where you can dock so you can constantly go and repair your armor damage. Which again leading to you likley missing out on pvp if anyone comes because you will have to jump out of system to repair your tank to fight them and they will likely leave. It will also lead to a less spread out faction war area.
So yeah the docking rights is a problem for the side trying to fight their way back up - unless you don't really care about pvp and just want to pve.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2388
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 21:18:00 -
[426] - Quote
Cearain wrote: CCP keeps saying the inferno fw changes were intended to make it a stepping stone to null sec. Why don't you believe them?
Well, it might have something to do with the fact that itGÇÖs not what theyGÇÖve said at all. For starters, you can see exactly what the lead designer for EVE Online has to say about your insistence that theyGÇÖre trying to turn FW into 0.0.
There is a substantial difference between saying that players will USE it as a stepping stone, and saying they are designing it to become 0.0. You are parsing words, and misrepresenting the developers. IGÇÖll be the first to say that FW is for everyone. Not just those of us into small gang pew, or those into blob warfare, those into solo plexing, or those in to mission running. ItGÇÖs for everyone. And yes, it will and should be used as a low-barrier way for young pilots to learn PvP. If those pilots move on to null sec, great! DoesnGÇÖt matter. If they stick around and make a career out of FW? ThatGÇÖs great too. ItGÇÖs a sandbox. YOU may feel that its not ok for it to be used in this fashion, but it is. And its ok for others to feel the same way.
CCP SoundwaveGÇÖs pretty frank explanation about the 0.0 thing is absolutely consistent with what theyGÇÖve said and shown me internally, there is simply no reason for you to take one term: GÇ£stepping stoneGÇ¥ and blow it out of proportion and say that is their entire design intent. ItGÇÖs blatant fearmongering, and utterly false, no matter how many times you want to parrot it about.
Secondly, your assertion that only one or two individuals in the community brought up station lockout, is also completely untrue. EVE-searches clear that up pretty easily, but youGÇÖre welcome to keep making numbers up. My feedback to CCP has always been a frank portrayal of the community GÇô divided on the issue, with some adamantly opposed to it and others willing to try it, with some even welcoming the issue. My personal view has always been GÇ£IGÇÖm dubious about it, it would ONLY be acceptable if they increased flip times. IGÇÖd much rather see a softer solution insteadGÇ¥. I havenGÇÖt swayed from that since, despite your attempts at describing me as flip-flopping on the issue. Again, any simple review of the forums, my blog, or my radio interviews can confirm that.
You can call me biased and incoherent all day long, the facts speak for themselves. It simply a shame you continue to waste the communityGÇÖs time and the developers time by devolving these threads into GÇ£Hans is brainwashedGÇ¥ character attacks instead of putting forth any kind of useful feedback. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
724
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 21:25:00 -
[427] - Quote
tell me how the recovery should work if the main FW income (lp shop) is basicaly useless. What i said is that the longer this it is out of balance (one strong faction and a weak) the harder it will get to recover.
i am plexing right now in lamaa. Its one jump away from the next station i can dock (kamela). I still see a problem here. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
431
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 22:29:00 -
[428] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: CCP keeps saying the inferno fw changes were intended to make it a stepping stone to null sec. Why don't you believe them?
Well, it might have something to do with the fact that itGÇÖs not what theyGÇÖve said at all. For starters, you can see exactly what the lead designer for EVE Online has to say about your insistence that theyGÇÖre trying to turn FW into 0.0.
Wow big surprise that he claims they were not doing this in light of the huge backlash from faction war players that they did not want faction war to be like null sec.
The problem is he forgot to send the memo out to the other developers that they are not supposed to admit that they are making faction war as a first taste of null sec so they can easilly step into that part of the game like was described in 2:38-2:52 of the video I linked.
Or Yitterbaum specifically said he it was a design point to make it a stepping stone to null sec in his interview on bringing solo back.
I'm not saying it was the only goal but it clearly was a goal. The developers said it was. I think that is unfortunate. Because i don't think null sec needs a stepping stone. Especially sov null sec.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: There is a substantial difference between saying that players will USE it as a stepping stone, and saying they are designing it to become 0.0. You are parsing words, and misrepresenting the developers..
BS I refer to what the developers said. You are the one who linked one dev trying to do damage control when players reacted negatively to how inferno makes fw "null sec lite."
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Secondly, your assertion that only one or two individuals in the community brought up station lockout, is also completely untrue. EVE-searches clear that up pretty easily, but youGÇÖre welcome to keep making numbers up. ....
Again I provide the sources for what the community that elected you was saying. Please if I missed lots of people give me the link in the thread. If you are asking whether this topic came up in the entire history of faction war yes I agree it has. Copying and pasting ideas from one area of the game to another is a pretty easy solution. Why not apply null sec mechanics to faction war? Why not apply incursions to faction war? Yes people have mentioned these ideas over time of course. For you to suggest that just because they have been brought up means that the community is to blame for ccp locking us out of stations is pretty extreme.
Bottom line you provide no link showing any sort of community consensus on this issue. I have provided threads that by your own work you have identified areas of consensus and that one is not listed. Indeed I even show your similar but less severe idea of station guns was not even really accepted.
But again you can keep imagining history how you want it people who want to see what really happened can look at the links I provided. While we are looking at history here is one of your campaign videos that no doubt motivated the community that elected you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCggF0O8_o
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
48
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 22:34:00 -
[429] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Wow big surprise that he claims they were not doing this in light of the huge backlash from faction war players that they did not want faction war to be like null sec.
The only "huge backlash" is from people who feel like they are being targeted because CCP didnt reset stuff.
While I don't know how you get yourselves out of the situation you find yourselves in, the fact is, this entire expansion is exactly what FW needed. 3,000+ ship kills in kourm/kam the past few days proves that. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
431
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 22:36:00 -
[430] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:tell me how the recovery should work if the main FW income (lp shop) is basicaly useless. What i said is that the longer this it is out of balance (one strong faction and a weak) the harder it will get to recover.
i am plexing right now in lamaa. Its one jump away from the next station i can dock (kamela). I still see a problem here.
There is a difference between
1) giving and economic incentive to fight. and 2) making it harder for the smaller side to actually combat the other.
The lp stuff deals with #1. Station lock outs is #2.
I do faction war for the pvp. So I don't mind being on the smaller faction. The fact that I am in the smaller faction makes pvp harder already. CCP doesn't need to implement mechanics that make it even harder for the underdog to fight back. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
431
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 22:43:00 -
[431] - Quote
SigmaPi wrote:Cearain wrote: Wow big surprise that he claims they were not doing this in light of the huge backlash from faction war players that they did not want faction war to be like null sec.
The only "huge backlash" is from people who feel like they are being targeted because CCP didnt reset stuff. While I don't know how you get yourselves out of the situation you find yourselves in, the fact is, this entire expansion is exactly what FW needed. 3,000+ ship kills in kourm/kam the past few days proves that.
Yeah except I was against a reset.
As far as a few days proving anything, I disagree.
That is why I won't say its proof of my prediction that most of the combat in fw will be much less spread out. We will have to wait before we claim proof about this system. But I will say my predictions are looking pretty spot on so far.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
724
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 22:59:00 -
[432] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Bienator II wrote:tell me how the recovery should work if the main FW income (lp shop) is basicaly useless. What i said is that the longer this it is out of balance (one strong faction and a weak) the harder it will get to recover.
i am plexing right now in lamaa. Its one jump away from the next station i can dock (kamela). I still see a problem here. There is a difference between 1) giving and economic incentive to fight. and 2) making it harder for the smaller side to actually combat the other. The lp stuff deals with #1. Station lock outs is #2. I do faction war for the pvp. So I don't mind being on the smaller faction. The fact that I am in the smaller faction makes pvp harder already. CCP doesn't need to implement mechanics that make it even harder for the underdog to fight back.
unless you see docking games as pvp i still don't see an issue here.
again: my base is 1j away from the combat site a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
431
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 00:33:00 -
[433] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:Cearain wrote:Bienator II wrote:tell me how the recovery should work if the main FW income (lp shop) is basicaly useless. What i said is that the longer this it is out of balance (one strong faction and a weak) the harder it will get to recover.
i am plexing right now in lamaa. Its one jump away from the next station i can dock (kamela). I still see a problem here. There is a difference between 1) giving and economic incentive to fight. and 2) making it harder for the smaller side to actually combat the other. The lp stuff deals with #1. Station lock outs is #2. I do faction war for the pvp. So I don't mind being on the smaller faction. The fact that I am in the smaller faction makes pvp harder already. CCP doesn't need to implement mechanics that make it even harder for the underdog to fight back. unless you see docking games as pvp i still don't see an issue here. again: my base is 1j away from the combat site
Are you saying its good that you have a limited number of systems you can plex in?
How are you running the majors? What sort of fit- active or buffer?
I looked at your killboard and saw mostly pve fits - not sure if this is an alt. If you use a pve fit to plex the no docking rule won't be an issue I agree.
Docking games and gate camping are the lowest form of pvp IMO. I rarely did either under the old system. Now with big consequences and limited ability to dock I have a hunch we will get more gate camps. But again we can just wait and see. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Mutnin
SQUIDS.
197
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 11:21:00 -
[434] - Quote
[quote=Hans Jagerblitzen][quote=Cearain]
The confusion that caused this silly "nullsec lite" notion to persist is that CCP once suggested using FW mechanics to augment 0.0 sovereignty mechanics, not the other way around. The documentation of this discussion was poor, and players assumed the worst.
If anything, 0.0 should be far more afraid that they'll end up with a "FW lite" system than we should be of getting more null sec game play rammed down our throats as you suggest.
/quote]
People are calling it null sec lite, because we are being forced to do Sov warfare and boring grind, in order to dock up and or make ISK from FW. Sure everyone could just forget about the plexing and go PVP but guess it would be nice to dock in stations with agents when you need to make ISK right?
Right now it seems to be playing out kinda how a lot of us predicted. There is a ton of offensive plexing for farming LP's and very little defensive plexing in systems out side key areas.
I haven't even had the chance to fly that much, since the update but the little amount of time I did, all I saw in the plexes were guys that ran away soon as I entered. Most were guys that were new to FW and this screams "farm alts" which is exactly what many of us said would happen.
This means anyone that actually cares about the Sov war part or FW, has to pretty much spend most of their gaming time orbiting buttons, de-contesting systems that some random alt ran, whom probably doesn't give a crap about taking the system in the 1st place.
Null Sec Lite = end less grind to hold Sov.. (the grind being orbiting buttons de-contesting systems) In reality Null sec guys have it easy, because they only have to grind their systems once, in FW we now have to regrind our sov daily if we intend to hold it. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
431
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 13:30:00 -
[435] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: CCP keeps saying the inferno fw changes were intended to make it a stepping stone to null sec. Why don't you believe them?
Well, it might have something to do with the fact that itGÇÖs not what theyGÇÖve said at all. For starters, you can see exactly what the lead designer for EVE Online has to say about your insistence that theyGÇÖre trying to turn FW into 0.0.....
In addition to the sources for developers explaining that it was an explicit goal to make faction war a stepping stone to null sec I also responded to Soundwaves ?feigned? shock that players considered this null sec lite.
Cearain wrote: ....
Let me explain why the comparison with sov null sec being made:
1) In null sec it takes a long enough time to flip a system so a small gang can't do anything of substance before the more numerous side can form a blob and chase them out. You are doing this by making it take longer to flip a system. 2) In null sec you can deny docking rights so roaming fleets in enemy space are more rare, easier to counter, and take more planning and time to form up. 3) In null sec if you get the blob to capture a system you can upgrade your system so you can carebear more effectively
I mean this is basically sov null sec in a nut shell. In this expansion you are doing all these things. So in those regards you are making it more like sov null sec. In what ways is this expansion making faction war less like sov null sec?
.
So not only are the mechanics bringing faction war much more in line with null sec play but the developers explicitly say that was the intent. Yet you continue to try to deny this.
Its no different than your claiming that station lockouts count as fulfilling the communities request that doing missions in stealth bombers be nerfed. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2391
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 16:01:00 -
[436] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Its no different than your claiming that station lockouts count as fulfilling the communities request that doing missions in stealth bombers be nerfed.
Obviously it doesnt "fulfill" anything, you're placing words in my mouth and assigning meaning. It's a pleasant side-effect, if anything. Does it reduce the amount of missioning going on in general? Sure. Does it mean that players on the losing faction will have to PvP to make a living instead of grinding missions? Absolutely. Is that a good thing? Yes.
Is iterating on missions by any means over? Of course not. You'r implication that I am somehow satisfied with missions is unfounded. For starters, I'm not satisfied with the fact that it still seems like pilots might be able to make more isk / hour grinding missions than by running plexes and engaging in territorial warfare, so this probably needs adjustment. On top of that, the NPC issues in both missions AND plexes should be and will be iterated on, so the issue is by no means resolved.
Once again, we both agree on what needs to be done. The difference here is that I made a statement pointing out some good in the package and your'e twisting it around to make it sound like I've all of a sudden given up on fixing a serious problem. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
432
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 18:20:00 -
[437] - Quote
I am not misrepresenting anything. This is what you said Hans:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:*UPDATE* We did it!! ....
3.) Faction Warfare missions easily farmable in a Stealth Bomber. Result is missions that encourage PvP as intended (by nature of being on overview), but do not encourage diversity of ship types or cooperative gangs to complete. GÇ£PvPGÇ¥ that surrounds current mission system is primarily limited to interceptors chasing bombers. NERFED!! Station Lockouts coming with Inferno will drastically reduce mission farming for the losing faction, forcing them to PvP in order to access agents again
....
The exclamation marks were yours.
Your claim that the losing side will have to pvp to make money is a pretty odd claim to make. Currently the Amarr lp is worth about 1/8 the minmatar lp. So while the winning side can certainly make money from pvp I don't see how the losing side is going to do very well with that as their source of income.
If you mean the losing side will have to plex to make isk.
First we can still run missions from our various high sec agents.
Second it remains to be seen if this offensive plexing will really lead to more pvp. there is good reason to think that due to the lock out rule plexing will be even more of a pve activity than before. When we do plex we will need active reppers (becasue we can't dock and repair) and will likley need to gimp our ships with a cloak in the highs and always an mwd to avoid the inevitable gate camps. Both of these problems with how will need to fit our ships will make it less likely that plexing will be a pvp activity.
Fourth: you are forgetting the more numerous winning side and what a emphasis these changes place on missioning for them.
Fifth: the actual concern of missions being farmable by stealth bombers was not even addressed. If anythign the station lock out means you will need a ship that can get past gate camps since you can no longer dock. Accordinlgy stealth bombers just became even more desirable.
Sixth: No sensible person will try to earn a living from the methods offered to the losing side. The best option for isk is to join the winning side and farm those missions. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Mutnin
SQUIDS.
198
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 19:47:00 -
[438] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Obviously it doesnt "fulfill" anything, you're placing words in my mouth and assigning meaning. It's a pleasant side-effect, if anything. Does it reduce the amount of missioning going on in general? Sure. Does it mean that players on the losing faction will have to PvP to make a living instead of grinding missions? Absolutely. Is that a good thing? Yes.
You seem to be ignoring the flip side of that coin.. Those of us that weren't so interested in farming missions but wanted to PVP, are now forced to do PVE (grind plexes) in order to have a place to dock close to the action.
Not only do we have to do it once, but it has to be done over and over each day because the new mission farmers are now plex farmers. At the very least there should be some reward for having to go around and undo what all the farmers did when I was at work or asleep.
At least with mission farmers they couldn't stop me from docking.. With plex farmers they sure can and I'm pretty sure the bulk of them will run from PVP.
There is nothing to force them to have to PVP.. If I enter a plex they are grinding down, they will just run to the next system, just like mission runners did. Now on flip side if there was a mechanic that took their earned LP away from the last plex they ran if I ran them out of the current plex then there might be a reason to fight. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2391
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 21:17:00 -
[439] - Quote
Mutnin wrote: You seem to be ignoring the flip side of that coin.. Those of us that weren't so interested in farming missions but wanted to PVP, are now forced to do PVE (grind plexes) in order to have a place to dock close to the action.
Not only do we have to do it once, but it has to be done over and over each day because the new mission farmers are now plex farmers. At the very least there should be some reward for having to go around and undo what all the farmers did when I was at work or asleep.
At least with mission farmers they couldn't stop me from docking.. With plex farmers they sure can and I'm pretty sure the bulk of them will run from PVP.
There is nothing to force them to have to PVP.. If I enter a plex they are grinding down, they will just run to the next system, just like mission runners did. Now on flip side if there was a mechanic that took their earned LP away from the last plex they ran if I ran them out of the current plex then there might be a reason to fight.
It may seem like that, but I'm not ignoring it. The bottom line is that the plexing is Faction Warfare. Its a unique mechanic for taking and holding territory that relies on small subcap fleets and not dreadnoughts blapping structures endlessly. Battles over plexes are considered pretty exciting by a lot of Faction Warfare pilots, and they were the basis for the PvP tournament at Fan Fest for this reason.
The Faction Warfare community's top request for 3 years has been "Give us a reason to go plex, its a good mechanism for getting fights, but only if people care enough to go there in the first place". There have been a few that want the plex system completely gutted, but most would agree that the mechanic itself isn't near as problematic as the lack of reason to engage in it in the first place.
Plexing may *seem* like a PvE activity, and is whenever its incredibly slow and there's little reason to engage the enemy inside one. When there's war targets that don't want you to take that plex, it becomes a PvP mechanic. Obviously there's work to do on the NPC's so that they don't discourage PvP, but in general plexing is what makes Faction Warfare unique from Red vs Blue, simple piracy, a static wardec, or any number of other types of PvP gameplay available elsewhere in EVE. (Inb4 station lockout = "gameplay" available elsewhere in EVE)
All that to say, when the community says for years "Give us a reason to care about doing this so we all do it and fight each other in the process again" and than all of a sudden we HAVE a reason to plex, the complaint that "why are you forcing us to plex" rings rather hollow.
Some will farm plexes for LP, or tags, or whatever, but that doesn't make plexing exclusively a PvE activity. The more motivation you give pilots to plex, the more you turn them into a PvP mechanic. There are a lot of us myself included who will be running a lot more plexes in the future, and very much want you to come PvP whenever we do. That's the point.
You can say that "all plex farmers will run from PvP" but these kind of speculative statements are functionally useless at this point in the development process, what is needed is real feedback based on activity that is actually occurring on the server - and right now that is a lot of PvP going on inside plexes, fighting over territory. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 11:20:00 -
[440] - Quote
i fully agree with Hans.
Plex and the "War" is unique feature of FW, if you dont want it and, well theres so much more in Eve. Afraid of station lockouts, well become neutral pirate gang.
So all in all great patch so far, i really like it. - general activity has increased a lot from my point of view, super great - new guys coming in to FW as well, great - you can have a FW alt from day one of his career, great - new map and info system gets the players involved with just a little click, very nice - the War actually has a meaning now, nice
issues/suggestions: - the "War" should have even more meaning for my taste: like for example systemwide bonuses for fighting if you upgrade a system. Not on top of fleet booster bonuses, but instead of them, so you either got some fleet bonus, or system bonus, wichever is higher. Or some other meaning... - defense plex should reward too, but not the individual player (on isk) but the faction as a whole. My suggestion: putting a little LP back in the bunker for every defense activity and let the defense plexing player get a mail about it or something like "defense standings". - if you dont want rewards for defense plex at all, then let the stats of the system converge back to zero contestet over time, same like the incursion mecanics. - make 50 or 100 stacks of datacores in LP shops, its really annoying to click two times for mere 5 cores.... - the new FW-map is really great, gets me involved, but it could need a little more love.....options to include jump lines, player numbers in system, ship/pod kills in system, 2d...
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|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
432
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 14:11:00 -
[441] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Mutnin wrote: You seem to be ignoring the flip side of that coin.. Those of us that weren't so interested in farming missions but wanted to PVP, are now forced to do PVE (grind plexes) in order to have a place to dock close to the action.
Not only do we have to do it once, but it has to be done over and over each day because the new mission farmers are now plex farmers. At the very least there should be some reward for having to go around and undo what all the farmers did when I was at work or asleep.
At least with mission farmers they couldn't stop me from docking.. With plex farmers they sure can and I'm pretty sure the bulk of them will run from PVP.
There is nothing to force them to have to PVP.. If I enter a plex they are grinding down, they will just run to the next system, just like mission runners did. Now on flip side if there was a mechanic that took their earned LP away from the last plex they ran if I ran them out of the current plex then there might be a reason to fight.
It may seem like that, but I'm not ignoring it. The bottom line is that the plexing is Faction Warfare. Its a unique mechanic for taking and holding territory that relies on small subcap fleets and not dreadnoughts blapping structures endlessly. Battles over plexes are considered pretty exciting by a lot of Faction Warfare pilots, and they were the basis for the PvP tournament at Fan Fest for this reason. The Faction Warfare community's top request for 3 years has been "Give us a reason to go plex, its a good mechanism for getting fights, but only if people care enough to go there in the first place". There have been a few that want the plex system completely gutted, but most would agree that the mechanic itself isn't near as problematic as the lack of reason to engage in it in the first place. Plexing may *seem* like a PvE activity, and is whenever its incredibly slow and there's little reason to engage the enemy inside one. When there's war targets that don't want you to take that plex, it becomes a PvP mechanic. Obviously there's work to do on the NPC's so that they don't discourage PvP, but in general plexing is what makes Faction Warfare unique from Red vs Blue, simple piracy, a static wardec, or any number of other types of PvP gameplay available elsewhere in EVE. (Inb4 station lockout = "gameplay" available elsewhere in EVE) All that to say, when the community says for years "Give us a reason to care about doing this so we all do it and fight each other in the process again" and than all of a sudden we HAVE a reason to plex, the complaint that "why are you forcing us to plex" rings rather hollow. Some will farm plexes for LP, or tags, or whatever, but that doesn't make plexing exclusively a PvE activity. The more motivation you give pilots to plex, the more you turn them into a PvP mechanic. There are a lot of us myself included who will be running a lot more plexes in the future, and very much want you to come PvP whenever we do. That's the point. You can say that "all plex farmers will run from PvP" but these kind of speculative statements are functionally useless at this point in the development process, what is needed is real feedback based on activity that is actually occurring on the server - and right now that is a lot of PvP going on inside plexes, fighting over territory.
Hans What you need to understand is that there is plexing for occupancy and plexing for pvp. When you plex with occupancy as your main goal you are better off running from fights. When you plex for pvp well you sacrifice at least some of your plexxing efficiency.
That is how it always has been (see anks post from way back about doing over 100 plexes in under a week with no pvp) and ccp really hasn't changed anything to make plexing itself more of a pvp activity. (although they have done things to increase pvp in general such as improving the lp per pvp kill pay out) They just added consequences to plexing which means more people are plexing in general. But its still most efficienly done in a pve fit running from combat.
Now people stopped doing that because it was boring and paid nothing so what is left in fw are mostly people who plex for pvp. So we are getting allot of fighting and players are saying "to hell with plex efficiency. Lets have 40 people sitting on a button in kamela instead of 40 people on 40 different buttons throughout the fw area because that way we will get more pvp." Which is and always has been my view. I like the pvp. But I at least am cognizant of the fact that if I really wanted to win the occupancy war it wouldn't be through pvp.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
432
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 14:23:00 -
[442] - Quote
Arguments I am seeing:
Permise 1: CCP made 15 different changes to faction war.
Premise 2: PVP and plexing has increased.
Conclusion: Therefore each and every one of the 15 changes was good and none of them could be bad.
While I agree that premise 1 and 2 are true the logic is horrible.
This is why the idea of lets "wait and see" what happens is illogical. The data won't answer what changes are causeing which results because there are simply too many changes at once. They are essentially confounding variables.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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zero2espect
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
63
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 22:28:00 -
[443] - Quote
well the changes have been great if you're minmatar. Amarr down to 9 or 10 systems or something and there basically is no-one logging in to fight.
great changes!
i take argument that FW is (or always was) about plexing. That may be some people's interpretation of FW. For me and most of the guys that I fly with it was always about roaming PVP warfare the was a. not 0.0 alliance pos bashing and blob warfare b. allowed small corps to grow and prosper in a pvp environment without the burden of war deccs, alliances and try-before-you-buy recruitment c. an opportunity to introduce some role play into day to day activities (fight for a bigger cause).
none of this had or has anything to do with plexes apart from using them as fight magnets. it sure as %$^$ has nothing to do with plexing for sov like a grind-monkey.
the saddest thing about this is that ALL of the great PVP pilots that made Amarr FW what it was, have had their hearts cut out by this patch and that instead, FW has been replaced with mechanical and robotic plexing for sov and ship up, ship down blobbage.
this coupled with the oppressive new war decc fees that mean even corps like ours, who leave FW because it blows, are burdened with astronomical war decc fees just to take the fight to the enemy.
there is increasingly less and less skill and art about this game with every "feature packed" release.
the less people "talk up" bad patches and bad ideas, and point them out for what they are, the quicker CCP will one day, just one day, take on some feedback and incorporate it from people who are actually there. the funniest thing is, the only thing that probably stopped the cyno blocker was the fact that it would upset too many of the big guys out there.
Hans, you're losing credibility with every statement that you make about how awesome this patch is, and try to snuff out any criticism. You are supposed to represent all players, and were elected on the promise of representing everybody - not just the steam rolling machine. we sure as hell don't need you telling us how awesome CCP is, they like to tell us that themselves (yet cant even launch a balloon on time). |
Amun Khonsu
3-Prong Operational Resources The Fendahlian Collective
38
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Posted - 2012.05.28 13:44:00 -
[444] - Quote
Judging by the state of FW today, the Amarr are not very good plexers. Hence, the moaning about the minmatar controlling systems, which they did through their hard work, ie PLEXING. Amarr need to get off of their duff now and actually do something related to FW.
I think CCP did well to bring in these changes.
My heart just bleeds for all of you station camping trolls. Now you have to plex and control a system if you want to camp. You cant be lazy anymore. Get out there and start playing the game. Fight them until turmoil is no more and strike terror into their hearts. |
Terrorfrodo
Deep Space Darwinian Law Enforcement Agency
82
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Posted - 2012.06.02 10:27:00 -
[445] - Quote
First day in FW (where I have actually the time to be online). I'm based out of a wormhole so I always have to look for the nearest FW war zone every day. As it happens, my exits today are very far away from my own Caldari/Gallente war zone but close to the Amarr/Minmatar war zones.
So why can I not see the Amarr/Minmatar systems in my FW tab? After all, Minmatar are war targets for me just as Gallente. There should be an option to view both wars, not only the one our own faction is directly participating. The Invulnerability Sphere:Make mining/industrial vessels defendable, better fights for everyone! |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2418
|
Posted - 2012.06.02 20:39:00 -
[446] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:First day in FW (where I have actually the time to be online). I'm based out of a wormhole so I always have to look for the nearest FW war zone every day. As it happens, my exits today are very far away from my own Caldari/Gallente war zone but close to the Amarr/Minmatar war zones.
So why can I not see the Amarr/Minmatar systems in my FW tab? After all, Minmatar are war targets for me just as Gallente. There should be an option to view both wars, not only the one our own faction is directly participating.
Great question, an issue I can certainly look into. Seems like it should be pretty straightforward to just add a tab to see the other warzone, especially since the mechanics now support more cross-factional gameplay. I was wondering this myself when they first released the new UI, I just haven't had a chance to bring it up compared to some of the more urgent concerns but I'll inquire about it during my summit follow-up in our internal forums. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
59
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Posted - 2012.06.06 06:07:00 -
[447] - Quote
Hans, what do you think about this:
Defensive plexing still doesn't net the pilots anything, but it replaces the lost LP that the plex would have taken from the system instead? So, offensive small plexes will take 5k from the bunker + 5k from space, but defensive will replenish the 5k to the bunker and v0v the pilots? |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
745
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 17:08:00 -
[448] - Quote
could a dev update that page? http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Factional_Warfare
just past erelevant parts from the blog. thanks a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
745
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 17:19:00 -
[449] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Bienator II wrote:Cearain wrote:Bienator II wrote:tell me how the recovery should work if the main FW income (lp shop) is basicaly useless. What i said is that the longer this it is out of balance (one strong faction and a weak) the harder it will get to recover.
i am plexing right now in lamaa. Its one jump away from the next station i can dock (kamela). I still see a problem here. There is a difference between 1) giving and economic incentive to fight. and 2) making it harder for the smaller side to actually combat the other. The lp stuff deals with #1. Station lock outs is #2. I do faction war for the pvp. So I don't mind being on the smaller faction. The fact that I am in the smaller faction makes pvp harder already. CCP doesn't need to implement mechanics that make it even harder for the underdog to fight back. unless you see docking games as pvp i still don't see an issue here. again: my base is 1j away from the combat site Are you saying its good that you have a limited number of systems you can plex in? How are you running the majors? What sort of fit- active or buffer? I looked at your killboard and saw mostly pve fits - not sure if this is an alt. If you use a pve fit to plex the no docking rule won't be an issue I agree. Docking games and gate camping are the lowest form of pvp IMO. I rarely did either under the old system. Now with big consequences and limited ability to dock I have a hunch we will get more gate camps. But again we can just wait and see.
i plex in pvp fits. primary ships: slicer, retribution, pilgrim. I can use the same ships or other dedicated ships for solo pvp. Fleet pvp allows more fittings.
you can easily solo a major in a pilgrim. If you pay attention you can even do that in a retribution without a singly shot. We even did majors with a small slicer fleet... so as soon you have friends it is mostly irelevant what fitting/ship you have.
active/passive tank is ship dependent in my loadouts.
Is it bad that i can't reach all systems with my buffer fitted navy armageddon solo? Not at all. It would be stupid if i could. Docking rights allow strategical positioning and make things more interesting.
btw, killboards tell you only the ships you lose, not those you fly. When i undock in a slicer i know i will lose it this evening, do i fly only slicers? no.
docking rights is the best what could happen to FW a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Aston Vette
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.08 03:16:00 -
[450] - Quote
I understand the logic behind the changes to datacores. You're trying to reward people who play the game to make isk. It is a fine idea.
I do have some issues with it though: 1. The datacore revenue I had certainly didn't make me rich, and anyone could do it. I don't see why this needed to change. 2. The parts of EVE that make isk (missions/plexes, mining, trading, manufacturing, etc.) are all things that I don't really find to be very enjoyable, and that (at least personally) I find are time consuming. (Not that I don't do them, I just don't really enjoy them so much.)
When I started playing I had time to grind isk, now I have a job and a family and lots of other constraints on my time. The passive income I had from datacores was enough so that I didn't have to log in just to make isk. I could log in just to do the fun parts - primarily looking for targets, sitting at a Titan listening to TS stories about the Love Gun and the occasional lopsided PVP. These changes cut my passive income cut roughly to 25% of the previous rate - which means I'll have to do some of the less interesting parts of the game to make sure I can do the fun parts.
Considering my time constraints, the prospect of having to work to play the game and the length of time needed to find a fight lately (much less a good one) this is the first time I've really started to consider quitting EVE. Probably the main reaction from the denizens of these forums will be "can I haz ur stuff?", but I urge CCP to please consider whether it would be better for people like me to have a modest passive income or for me to be considering quitting entirely. I don't check these forums regularly, so please make your reply by patch notes. |
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Marine
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2012.06.09 12:50:00 -
[451] - Quote
Same here. To achieve what i want to do in Eve, i need the passive income of my RD Agents... It is now totally broken. To get more Cores i'm running PASSIVELY RD Agents missions 3h/day. To get more Cores, i need Tritanium. To get Tritanium : either : 1) refining 0 meta level stuff i get in running PASSIVELY combat agent mission 2) buying in the market 3) Mining
1) It was just NERFED. 2) Drone Region do not produce anymore Tritanium : price rates are at the 10 years ago commencing game level 3) 10k FEE for each datacore given by the RD agent (half are already payed with Tritanium) 4) PvP people who never invested time in RD production get datacores without FEE (tyvm to confirm CCP...) 5) I'll commencing passively a new miner career, after all, i can adapt...
WTF ARE YOU DOING CCP ?
If i can't get the same passive income after all i just stated, ill seriously considering leaving (no "have stuff " things ofc...) |
ReiAnn
Nova-Tek
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 19:20:00 -
[452] - Quote
I'm sorry, but how is adding PVE content and datacores to FW adding to the PVP experience? So far, I have read or heard from people in FW that they mostly just sit in a enemy site waiting for a timer to give them loot. How is this not passive? People solo PVE the sites and make more than the datacore R&D agents or missions ever gave...for what? To sit in a site by yourself?
Resend the datacores and reduce the payout for NPCs.
Add other players to the mix. Make standings actually matter. I'm running around with a -4.9 Gallente standing. How am I not an enemy to the galltente state. I know people who have -10. They don't necessarily visit gallente space, but shouldn't they be targets as well? For supporting the enemy? Killing npcs during missions like enemy abound? Rather how crimewatch SHOULD work. |
Montmazar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:56:00 -
[453] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:Orisa Medeem wrote:Two comments about the changes: Quote:[Given LP] = ([Market value of target ship] - [Max. Insurance market value] + [Fitted mods, rigs and subsystem market value] + [Transported items market value]) / 10000 Please take dropped items into consideration in that formula. They should either pay half compared to the destroyed ones, or nothing at all. This is important to prevent exploiting it. If you're carrying 100,000,000 ISK in loot, the EV of the drop is 50 mil ISK, and the person killing you gets 10,000 LP from it. If you were trying to abuse it, you'd be hard pressed to make more than 50 mil ISK off of 10k LP. with the ship LP changes, it makes a lot of sense for FW players to keep abnormally high ship costs in the regions that are contested while alt shipping in ships to be put on contracts for either side to purchase. Because it is now in the best interests for both factions to keep market prices high, they will no longer compete for cheap ships for their own militas on the open market. but rather through contracts which are not counted in the LP price index for ships/fittings. Destroying a Punisher with tech 1 fitting: gained LP = (450k ISK GÇô 312k ISK + 100k ISK + 0) / 10000 = around 24 LP (previous system would have paid 25 LP) now fit that punisher with a market manipulated module, Republic Fleet Thermic plating est cost 100k isk, set price on Placid market 100 million isk, In heavy sov upgrades system market cost cheaper, it currently costs me (a nonFW player but with good regional faction standings) approx 1 million to place module on the market, with no buy orders or competing modules market price is now 100 million for a cheap module. Destroying a punisher with tech 1 fitting:gained LP =(450k isk - 312k isk + 100 million isk +0)/1000 = 100,138 LP (overheat a lowslot mod for a few seconds to encourage the item being destroyed) Punisher has 4 lowslots, add four of those modules. now make that module worth one billion, or ten billion ....
Proof CCP does not read the forums. |
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