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New 11% Tax for all NPC Corps

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:32:00 - [601] Edited by: baltec1 on 22/09/2009 15:35:48 Originally by: Hamshoe Originally by: baltec1 And now CCP have fixed it so that you now pay for your immunity to wardecs. Seems fair to me since all of my stuff can be destroyed by a war dec. You now have a negetive to go along with that positive. Without any of the other benefits. You know, the "positives" that caused you to choose to go into a player corp in the first place? They obviously already outweigh the immunity to wardecs, unless you made a bad choice. Like I said, you're apparently unhappy with your choice, but rather than adjust that you'll choose to penalize others so you can feel more competative. It's not at all the same thing, it's catering to jealousy. I could demand CCP take away your immunity to wardecs but I dont, I am quite happy for you to only be paying 11% tax on mission isk for your corp while I take more risks and pay more to my corp. However it seems you just dont like the idea of having a small drawback for your immunity in high sec. I hate double standards. Oh and before this goes any further, I have an alt in an NPC corp to avoid war decs that would get in the way of my industrial projects and mission *****ing, and here I am, quite happy to pay this tax for that protection.
Katarina Shadows	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:36:00 - [602] Edited by: Katarina Shadows on 22/09/2009 15:35:54 Julian, Daemonspirit, a very wise man once said: Do not argue with the stupid, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Hythloday	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:40:00 - [603] Edited by: Hythloday on 22/09/2009 15:41:50 Originally by: Daemonspirit #1 - Not everyone likes this change. I think its stupid, silly and will not address the issue the GM posted as the GOAL. #2 - What are the symptoms as you see them? Lets define the problem. completely glossing over the fact that we haven't identified that there is a problem. At least to my satisfaction... I am aware of what the NPC corp experience entails, having experienced it myself. I think it was around 8 months before I finally left my newb corp. It's essentially a single player game, with players doing the same missions, or mining the same belts, enjoying neither activity, only doing it for the pointless acquisition of wealth and skills. We can have this experience in a single player sandbox game, with an IRC client running in the background. The point of an MMO is to have cooperation and competition between players in a persistent environment. Getting people out of newb corps and into player corps should increase cooperation and competition. If you're scared of competition in its purest most explosive form, then thats fine, you shouldn't be expected to go to 0.0 and learn to dodge gatecamps and ninja rat, but we need more cooperation between players and we're not going to get that with people languishing in newb corps. Even WOW has more cooperation among causal players than Eve does, you have to join a raiding guild if you want access to half of the content in the game. Even if you don't particularly want a serious raiding guild, players will still seek out a guild simply out of boredom, or because they want someone to talk to. You don't get dumped into a newb guild where you can settle in and have people to talk to and instruct while you run the same missions over and over again in WoW. All you've got is Barrens chat, and thats super rewarding. So the problem is: 1. People are becoming comfortable with Eve being little more than a single player game and an IRC client. 2. Players who do this are not cooperating or competing with other players enough, which is the whole point of the game being online. 3. WoW is doing something better than Eve. This is unacceptable Solution: Encourage players out of NPC corps and into player corps.

CCP Eris Discordia	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:41:00 - [604] I wouldn't call it a problem, nothing is exploited, nothing is broken..but we worry that the NPC corporation vs player corporations is not a very even situation and people might miss out on what a player corporation can offer. If you have a corporation where you can meet people, that is immune to war declarations and a tax haven. Why the hell would you leave? Some people do leave these NPC corporations and join corporations owned by players. Hanging out with these players and having the chance to become very meaningful to your corporation is an example of an EVE experience that is harder to get when you stay in NPC corporations. The data we have also suggests that people who join a player corporation are more likely to do a lot of different things in EVE and are more likely to enjoy the things in EVE. In EVE you can be very useful as a new player to some corporations and they will want to involve you in their activities and you have a group of people who would be dedicated to help you..so you can help them in return. With the tax we want to give an incentive to join player corporations who may have a lower tax rate, or a tax rate that will give back to you in a way. If you are dead set to joining a player corporation you can still stay in the NPC corporation. You are not tossed out after a certain time period, nor does 11% tax cripple your income. It might give you something to think about and affect the choice you want to make in game, for me that is a sandbx game..being presented with choices that will mean something. Pink Dread has been hijacked

Sizzle Anburn	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:53:00 - [605] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Stuff Except for one small problem - nobody other than noobs will be paying the 11% NPC corp tax. Established players can easily just create disposable one man player corps to avoid it. Is that what you want your corp tax to do? Cause the creation of thousands of one man disposable player corps? I'd suggest you take that into consideration, and make some sort other changes to prevent the NPC corp dwellers from gaming your change, and avoiding your tax. Otherwise your logical, well intentioned 11% corp tax punishes nobody other than noobs, and people with so much money that they don't care.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:55:00 - [606] Well, I've been properly chastised... I'm going to have to bow out of the conversation then, because I disagree that (while noble in purpose) this change isn't enough of a change to reach the stated goal. Thanks for the clarification! ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Katarina Shadows	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:57:00 - [607] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I wouldn't call it a problem, nothing is exploited, nothing is broken..but we worry that the NPC corporation vs player corporations is not a very even situation and people might miss out on what a player corporation can offer. If you have a corporation where you can meet people, that is immune to war declarations and a tax haven. Why the hell would you leave? Some people do leave these NPC corporations and join corporations owned by players. Hanging out with these players and having the chance to become very meaningful to your corporation is an example of an EVE experience that is harder to get when you stay in NPC corporations. The data we have also suggests that people who join a player corporation are more likely to do a lot of different things in EVE and are more likely to enjoy the things in EVE. In EVE you can be very useful as a new player to some corporations and they will want to involve you in their activities and you have a group of people who would be dedicated to help you..so you can help them in return. With the tax we want to give an incentive to join player corporations who may have a lower tax rate, or a tax rate that will give back to you in a way. If you are dead set to joining a player corporation you can still stay in the NPC corporation. You are not tossed out after a certain time period, nor does 11% tax cripple your income. It might give you something to think about and affect the choice you want to make in game, for me that is a sandbx game..being presented with choices that will mean something. Stands on one leg, flapping my arms like wings chanting Gobblegobblegobble... But seriously it isn't difficult to see by the level of resistance to this idea that your worries are largely unfounded. Many of us are already in player corps and choose merely to leave our alts in NPC corps for convenience. If you are dead set on introducing this tax then why not offset this with the sort of benefits we would receive in player corps - Free ship replacement for all losses anyone? (On top of insurance payouts of course.) Judging by the sheer number of "QQ" and "Cry more" style responses in this thread it cannot be difficult for you to see that it is interaction with exactly these kind of players that many of us choose to reject. I have no interest in spending my game time with prepubescent children and adolescents easily young enough to be my offspring. It has been clearly demonstrated how easy it will be to evade this tax by creating one-man corps and thus negating all your best intentions making this a totally pointless change and, as everyone with even the most limited intelligence can comprehend, a pointless change cannot be considered a good change. There are numerous ways in which you could improve this wonderful game of yours but unfortunately this proposal is not one of them. The user interface in this game really feels like it was designed by an amateur and should be vastly improved before you even consider doing anything else. Adding this tax in the hope of making improvement is tantamount to painting the toenails on a gangrenous leg.
Neon Delight	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:58:00 - [608] Originally by: Lindsay Logan 11% taxes to the NPC or 0 - 100% taxes to you and your fellow players? This, in addition to all the awesome features that already exist is not encouragement enough? Sure, thoose who will not care and still be NPC will not care and pay for the 11%, and does that matter? No. They pay 11% for protection basically. 11% is a cheap alternative to Corp tax which in many cases is more than 11%, and can change on a whim. Complete freedom to do what you want, when you want, is also attractive to many players. The content is already awesome, I agree, but it will never be enough to stop folks playing Alts in npc corps because of the simple fact that NPC corps let you "get away from the office" of what can be a very hectic "career" in player corps. Some folks do it just to avoid burnout by hiding and playing their Alt for awhile...so again, 11% tax is not going to hinder many folks whatsoever.
Hythloday	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:58:00 - [609] Originally by: Sizzle Anburn Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Stuff Except for one small problem - nobody other than noobs will be paying the 11% NPC corp tax. Established players can easily just create disposable one man player corps to avoid it. Is that what you want your corp tax to do? Cause the creation of thousands of one man disposable player corps? And after they get bored of having nobody to talk to, they'll join a proper corp. Like players in WoW do.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:01:00 - [610] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Explanation I knew I needed to come back... I would be interested to see the number of players that CCP believes this will be addressed to, i.e. - the number of players in NPC corps that might actually be motivated to move. Again, thanks for the reply, but I must disagree. ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö

Nidhiesk	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:01:00 - [611] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia - As someone mentioned, the tax is more an encouragement and a nudge towards joining a player corporation than a command. You still have the choice to stay in the NPC corporation and in high sec and mine or run missions. how ? player corp usually has 10-12%. same thing. forget it, Im staying in npc ? LOL. wow, if tahts the explanation... it needs rethinking...lots of it. raising tax wont make people go in player corps lol
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:04:00 - [612] Originally by: Nidhiesk Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia - As someone mentioned, the tax is more an encouragement and a nudge towards joining a player corporation than a command. You still have the choice to stay in the NPC corporation and in high sec and mine or run missions. how ? player corp usually has 10-12%. same thing. forget it, Im staying in npc ? LOL. wow, if tahts the explanation... it needs rethinking...lots of it. raising tax wont make people go in player corps lol It has enough people talking about it though. Seriously if this changes nothing then why all the whines
RansomList	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:04:00 - [613] Edited by: RansomList on 22/09/2009 16:05:04 Tears Dont cave in CCP, this will make EVE a better game in the long run. Quote: It has enough people talking about it though. Seriously if this changes nothing then why all the whines Carebears live in a permanent state of terror.
Xandr0ss	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:07:00 - [614] Originally by: baltec1 I could demand CCP take away your immunity to wardecs but I dont, Really, so you think its fine to wardec a corp which will have a lot of new players in it? might as well remove High Sec if you are suggesting this.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:09:00 - [615] Originally by: RansomList Carebears live in a permanent state of terror. I won't say I speak for most carebears, but it's not a state of terror I live in, it's the stupidity, immaturity, and epeen-waving one has to put up with when dealing with PVP.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:11:00 - [616] Originally by: Xandr0ss Originally by: baltec1 I could demand CCP take away your immunity to wardecs but I dont, Really, so you think its fine to wardec a corp which will have a lot of new players in it? might as well remove High Sec if you are suggesting this. My corp gets wardecs and we have new players.
Carcosa Hali Order of Anarchy The Laughing Men	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:11:00 - [617] It's an ISK sink, plain and simple. Creating all the one man alt-corps is an ISK sink. Same difference. Also it occurs to me that with all the veteran players out of noob corps and in their one-man corps, there will be few around to tell the real noobs how they can do that; therefore many will stick around a few months, and be easy prey for the swarms of exploitation corps already trolling the spacelanes. Good change. -------------- Sometimes you lose it all.
Sabriele Amarr Department of Defence Prismatic Refraction	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:12:00 - [618] Originally by: Xandr0ss Really, so you think its fine to wardec a corp which will have a lot of new players in it? might as well remove High Sec if you are suggesting this. What a great idea! edit: spellin HYRDA WILL PROVAIL
Sizzle Anburn	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:14:00 - [619] Originally by: Hythloday Originally by: Sizzle Anburn Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Stuff Except for one small problem - nobody other than noobs will be paying the 11% NPC corp tax. Established players can easily just create disposable one man player corps to avoid it. Is that what you want your corp tax to do? Cause the creation of thousands of one man disposable player corps? And after they get bored of having nobody to talk to, they'll join a proper corp. Like players in WoW do. So the purpose of the design change is indeed to get NPC corp dwellers to create disposable one man corps because then they'll get bored and join player corps. My God, that's brilliant! I bow before your game design uberness sir.
Lagn Gita	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:14:00 - [620] over/under on how many "WTF my corp just blowed up my 4bil isk ship??!!?" threads 2 weeks after this goes live? you know there are already fake corps being setup for this purpose and there are many people dumb enough to fall for it.

Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:14:00 - [621] Originally by: Nidhiesk Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia - As someone mentioned, the tax is more an encouragement and a nudge towards joining a player corporation than a command. You still have the choice to stay in the NPC corporation and in high sec and mine or run missions. how ? player corp usually has 10-12%. same thing. Actually, by the sound of things, player corps usually have <10% tax — that's why the rate of 11% was chosen after all. You're also missing the tiny point that in a PC corp, those taxes aren't lost, but put into a separate fund which can be used for things that will benefit you. So no. They're not the same thing. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
stoicfaux	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:15:00 - [622] My apologies if this has already been asked (i.e. too lazy to go back and read through 20+ pages,) but what percentage of active players are in NPC corps? And is there a graph comparing the number of people in NPC corps versus their total skill points?
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:18:00 - [623] Originally by: Carcosa Hali It's an ISK sink, plain and simple. Creating all the one man alt-corps is an ISK sink. Same difference. Also it occurs to me that with all the veteran players out of noob corps and in their one-man corps, there will be few around to tell the real noobs how they can do that; therefore many will stick around a few months, and be easy prey for the swarms of exploitation corps already trolling the spacelanes. Good change. It¦s meant to "encourage" people to join player corporations. That is the goal of it that Ccp has communicated. No word they planned it as an Isk sink. I might add that since page... I dont know- maybe 3 noone of the People in favour of the change could believably explain that the change would actually do what Ccp sais it would (Make people join Player Corps).
Dred'Pirate Wesley Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:20:00 - [624] Originally by: Hythloday Originally by: Sizzle Anburn Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Stuff Except for one small problem - nobody other than noobs will be paying the 11% NPC corp tax. Established players can easily just create disposable one man player corps to avoid it. Is that what you want your corp tax to do? Cause the creation of thousands of one man disposable player corps? And after they get bored of having nobody to talk to, they'll join a proper corp. Like players in WoW do. There is always eve radio chat or the dozens of other long term chat channels for the solo corp mission runner. YAAAARRRR! Where's Buttercup?!
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:21:00 - [625] Edited by: Daemonspirit on 22/09/2009 16:21:49 Originally by: stoicfaux My apologies if this has already been asked (i.e. too lazy to go back and read through 20+ pages,) but what percentage of active players are in NPC corps? And is there a graph comparing the number of people in NPC corps versus their total skill points? Its been asked, it hasn't been answered! I am almost willing to bet there are more alts in NPC corps than mains (hell, I have four) - and the number of players affected by this enough to actually >join< a corp larger than 1 is not going to be statistically significant. ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
stoicfaux	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:22:00 - [626] As for everyone forming one-man corps, I just can't get excited about being gang-banged while exiting a station after being wardec'ed. It shouldn't be necessary to have a scouting alt just to undock. So I don't see one-man corps as the "workaround" to the 11% NPC tax.
Mikayla Grey Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:25:00 - [627] Originally by: stoicfaux As for everyone forming one-man corps, I just can't get excited about being gang-banged while exiting a station after being wardec'ed. It shouldn't be necessary to have a scouting alt just to undock. So I don't see one-man corps as the "workaround" to the 11% NPC tax. You wont get wardecked in a 1-man corp unless you act like a moron in local.(But maybe thats the problem). Originally by: Lagn Gita over/under on how many "WTF my corp just blowed up my 4bil isk ship??!!?" threads 2 weeks after this goes live? you know there are already fake corps being setup for this purpose and there are many people dumb enough to fall for it. Yes the poor "new players" with 4 bill missionfarmers.
PostWithYourAlt	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:26:00 - [628] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia .. this is not meant as an accusation or something but do you actually read the complete thread or only parts of it ?
Sizzle Anburn	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:27:00 - [629] Originally by: stoicfaux As for everyone forming one-man corps, I just can't get excited about being gang-banged while exiting a station after being wardec'ed. It shouldn't be necessary to have a scouting alt just to undock. So I don't see one-man corps as the "workaround" to the 11% NPC tax. You might want to actually read the thread before you post. You get war dec'd you just drop the corp and form another, or better yet just join one of your other pre-formed ones. You don't even need to delete any of your corps that way. Just leave an alt in it. It's easily gameable. The fact that most of the "yeah, stick it to the NPC bears" aren't capable of figuring out how gameable it is doesn't surprise me in the least.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:32:00 - [630] Originally by: Mikayla Grey Originally by: stoicfaux As for everyone forming one-man corps, I just can't get excited about being gang-banged while exiting a station after being wardec'ed. It shouldn't be necessary to have a scouting alt just to undock. So I don't see one-man corps as the "workaround" to the 11% NPC tax. You wont get wardecked in a 1-man corp unless you act like a moron in local.(But maybe thats the problem). Originally by: Lagn Gita over/under on how many "WTF my corp just blowed up my 4bil isk ship??!!?" threads 2 weeks after this goes live? you know there are already fake corps being setup for this purpose and there are many people dumb enough to fall for it. Yes the poor "new players" with 4 bill missionfarmers. I think some people hide in the NPC corps so they can smack in local with little chance of comeback. It also seems that some people feel this bit of tax should allow them to have the benefits of a player corp without many of the drawbacks, such as being wardeccable. Most people in NPC corps don't really seem to care either way, they're just happy playing the game and if they eventually migrate out to player corps, fine, if not, fair enough. ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!



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