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Ninja salvaging and the flaws contained in CCP's sad look at legality.

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Hanso Sparxx Order of Shadows	Posted - 2009.10.13 14:14:00 - [211] Think of it as like, you play this video game for hours a day, you kill things, you get bounties for killing things and loot, but then someone salvages the wrecks that you killed. The salvage is like loot to you so you feel like you are entitled to this loot. While all this is going on, there are other people out in the world who are at work, making money, forming relationships with other people, buying goods and services, making babies, etc... I guess what I am trying to say is that are you ****s still crying about this **?? Get a life for Pete's sake! ------------------ Go Deep!
Dabljuh	Posted - 2009.10.13 19:42:00 - [212] Edited by: Dabljuh on 13/10/2009 19:44:57 EVE salvage has absolutely nothing to do with IRL salvage. EVE salvage is more comparable to mining or farming, where your farming tools are missiles and pulse lasers. If someone steals what you've mined, you're authorized to defend your property with all necessary means. And in real life, the perp doesn't have the right to fight back, because the person shooting at him does nothing illegal in the first place! If the perp then still decides fight, he's not just guilty of stealing but also of assault, attempted homicide, etc. Implying eve salvage should be compared to IRL salvage laws is misleading, and maliciously so. In EVE terms this would mean: if you don't already get concorded when you steal salvage/cans, the guy you're stealing from has the right to stop you (i.e. blow your ship up, but not your pod) and if you so much as shoot at him you get insta concorded. What CCP needs is a bunch of lawyers to explain them how IRL laws work and consequently how to fix the game. Empire space in its current shape is just ******ed.
Terranid Meester Tactical Assault and Recon Unit	Posted - 2009.10.13 19:50:00 - [213] The OP has a point.....stuck up where the sun doth not shine. Thats probably whats making him rage against the poor and innocent salvager populace.
Suianchen Takana Caldari Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2009.10.16 00:52:00 - [214] My 2 cents I don't think salvage OR loot should be owned. It's a wreck in space. No one bought it, no title was passed on, no contract exchanged. Someone blew it up. If that someone is you, that doesn't entitle you to ownership because you spent the ammo. You get the bounty. The wreck AND loot never was under any contractual obligation unlike ISK bounty. I think CCP should take away loot ownership too and make it first to the wreck gets the loot, the salvage, and the LOLs.
Ralavina	Posted - 2009.10.16 08:44:00 - [215] I hope that salvaging does make you blinky to the person who did the mission. I really, really would like that. Ralara's banned again so this is my alt :p
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.10.16 09:48:00 - [216] Originally by: Ralavina I hope that salvaging does make you blinky to the person who did the mission. I really, really would like that. Well all you have to do is take a single unit of ammo from one of the wrecks and the effect is much the same.
Awesome Possum Imperium Signal Corps	Posted - 2009.10.16 14:18:00 - [217] Originally by: Suianchen Takana My 2 cents I don't think salvage OR loot should be owned. It's a wreck in space. No one bought it, no title was passed on, no contract exchanged. Someone blew it up. If that someone is you, that doesn't entitle you to ownership because you spent the ammo. You get the bounty. The wreck AND loot never was under any contractual obligation unlike ISK bounty. I think CCP should take away loot ownership too and make it first to the wreck gets the loot, the salvage, and the LOLs. please post this in assembly hall, it needs a thumbs up. ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Divinely Inspirational	Posted - 2009.10.16 14:36:00 - [218] Originally by: BunnyBuzzBunny Boo freaking hoo. Someone stole my salvage and blew up my ship now I'm butthurt and have to forum post THIS IS EVE NOT REAL LIFE. DEAL WITH IT OR **** OFF!
Gunnanmon Gallente Imperial Syndicate Forces The Laughing Men	Posted - 2009.10.16 15:08:00 - [219] Originally by: TheBlueMonkey a bigger issue for me is how easy it is for people to get their probing skills up, it took me ages before and I had to have loads of different probe types. Since then exploration has taken a nose dive and is worth a pittence :( in****ingdeed Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
SixToOne	Posted - 2009.10.16 20:02:00 - [220] Something wierd about this whole situation is....If salvaging isnt so profitable...Why do you doit? Its not profitable,Right? Most times that the so called "ninja's" do salvage its not for profit its for greif.They will purposely take from a wreck to initiate the emorage of said missioner then warp out and grab buddies to "gank" them.There taking advantage of the game mechaninc to fluff there killboard/ego's or what have you..And last and most importantly...Ninja's arent seen.The fact that oyu do see these fake ninja's is because there not willing to take the time to get the standing/skill it takes to do lvl 4's.i heard once in a random innerweb skit...If you see a ninja,Its prolly the last thing youll ever see...ever.Ill let you guys continue to make rules and reasons as to why this is okay and the right thing to do.CCP is aweome in a whole lot of ways.But some of there thoughts about scamming and such are just so they dont have to put in work to make things right,Bounty system anyone? Make more excuses...

Lazy Eyeh Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.10.16 21:09:00 - [221] Originally by: SixToOne words... I love trolls.
Borun Tal Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.10.16 23:35:00 - [222] tl;dr There aren't any flaws in a system if it's accepted and as-designed by CCP. Your unwillingness to read (by your own admission) merely admits your own ignorance on the topic, thus completely invalidating anything you have to say. Next topic?
Maddock Krug	Posted - 2009.10.17 10:35:00 - [223] Hey. @SixToOne You are right: Salvaging is not as profitable as very few MRwh*s claim it to be. Whilst you ask why Ninjas do it, you give some of more or less likely answers yourself. But there are many, many, many more more or less answers as well. Just start to use your brain and think in gameterms and gamemechanics and terms of EvE Experience. I cannot fully disagree with you, but I won't agree with you to any degree with anything you've spit into this thread. Because all in all you are wrong. First of: What you claim to be the intention of ninjas is, what may be right for some ninjas. But I have seen many ninjas just salvaging, and neither looting nor ganking the poor, poor, poor MR. So your statement on the griefdom by ninjas is incorrect, as it does not apply with all of 'em. Secondly: It is a legend, albeit a wrong legend, that ninjas are aught to be unseen while they do something. As many have told in this topic and in many other topics as well: comparisons with RL is - as always within any game - something to better leave aside, 'cause it is not comparable. That's why you are very wrong with your assumption on this. Thirdly: I am happy to figure that most MR really don't care (much) about ninjas; they run their missions and want ISK; that's why they don't waste time on salvaging and looting, as most missions (even L4s) don't really give so much valuable stuff (compared with bounties and rewards and also related with the missions sites); so focussing on bounties, rewards and time bonuses alone is what makes you really rich - all this with the assumption that you solo-run missions with mediochre skills, hoping that most eve player have them, realizing though they have not (seen to many people in lvl 4s just failing to do it right ...). Since I do ninja salvage (and sometimes loot as well), I more often get fleet invites to get along faster; and I get rambling fools **ing their pants whilst emoraging on local or PM or private convo very seldomly. That's why I conclude: The very few bickering about ninjas salvaging their missions behave like owning the truth, although they are -in fact- a poor and simple-minded minority claiming things which simply don't exist and which don't match with the EvE-wide common sense. Fly reckless! Mad
edfhk'lkhff	Posted - 2009.10.17 14:51:00 - [224] Edited by: edfhk''lkhff on 17/10/2009 14:52:11 It all boils down to greif. Get off the troll comments and get real answers. Ninja salvagers are just lazy and lack standing to get there own salvage to ninja. I blow up my wrecks. I like jelly beans. Edit:WTH is TL;DR?
Max Hatter Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.10.17 19:06:00 - [225] Originally by: edfhk'lkhff Edited by: edfhk''lkhff on 17/10/2009 14:52:11 It all boils down to greif. Get off the troll comments and get real answers. Ninja salvagers are just lazy and lack standing to get there own salvage to ninja. I blow up my wrecks. I like jelly beans. Edit:WTH is TL;DR? That's not the truth. I've done missions and I hated it. It's so god damn boring. You do the same thing over and over again and you have almost no social interaction. I think most ninjas have done missions but found it lacking. Hell I even found mining to be more fun then missioning. Ninja salvaging is more varied you have the chance to get some PvP action. It even demands more skills (not skillpoints mind you) then mission running. I'm always looking to evolve my ninja salvaging skills. Not because I need more ISK (I could do missions or trading or something for that.) but because I find it challenging. But you who are against ninja salvaging probably won't care about what I'm saing anyway. You are dead sure we are just in this for the grief and as you say, we are to lazy.
Maddock Krug	Posted - 2009.10.18 20:05:00 - [226] Originally by: edfhk'lkhff Edited by: edfhk''lkhff on 17/10/2009 14:52:11 It all boils down to greif. Get off the troll comments and get real answers. Ninja salvagers are just lazy and lack standing to get there own salvage to ninja. I blow up my wrecks. I like jelly beans. Edit:WTH is TL;DR? "Get off the troll comments..." comments the troll. LOL
Tempo Cat	Posted - 2009.10.19 17:13:00 - [227] Hi. I skipped a lot of this thread because I got bored. So sorry about that. While reading the few comments I did read (4 pages worth) I kept laughing at the fact that people bring up RL car wrecks. When I scan out some EMO CNR pilot running a lvl 5 and start salvaging THE wrecks, he or she will usually start blowing them up (obviously IRL crying and eating Bon Bons...). I think the idea of carrying a rocket launcher in my car so that I can blow it up should I get in a wreck is pretty awesome. Go thread.
My Postman	Posted - 2009.10.21 14:32:00 - [228] Originally by: MIND SCR4MBLER as has been explained REPEATEDLY the whole notion of cars is a consequence of the OP's biscuit cake brainpower. the laws of SALVAGE are related to mariners law, and as in maritime salvaging is a dedicated profession using specialist equipment. you dont just go and salvage the titanic by sticking a little salvager on your 36" moody. you need a bloody big boat full of diving equipment and cranes. the best way CCP could end this constant emoraging is making Salvaging a full blown career like mining. some simple steps would be: 1: make a dedicated salvage boat. i'm thinking a variant of the retriever with bonuses to tractor range and salvagers. 2: make salvager 1 really crap. so it takes like 5 minutes to salvage one wreck, the samer as miner 1 on a bantam, you can mine in a normal ship but the isk/hr is a joke, so it should be the same for salvagers on normal ships. 3: make salvager II like strip miners, you can salvage a wreck from 80KM and get 3x the salvage drop if you use it, but you need moar skills and you can get salvage upgrades like miners have. 4: make a special salvage tractor beam. can tractor wrecks from 3x range like 120km and 3x speed with a new skill. 5: give the salvage boat the same sort of tank as the hulk can field, salvage boats should be able to stand a pounding from a emoraging carebear mission doer, if you have ever seen a RL salvage boat they look proper tough. 6: to keep the ninjas happy make a T2 salvage boat using something like a HAC hull but with salvager bonuses, make it epically fast, a great tank and enough gank to do violence on a mission doer if they so desire to engage in combat. 1) That¦s a good idea. Give the "thief" a ship which is at least out of web- and scramble range! 2) The idea is improving. Don¦t even give a chance to the mission runner to salvage! 3) Adds to point 2. 4) Adds to point 1. 5) Further improvement - make the "thiefs" ship undistroyable (godmode). 6) Adds to point 5. I would appreciate these changes for sure. You know why? As soon as this happens 95% of the ninja¦s quit their business for not beeing an a*hole anymore. 10/10
Dacryphile	Posted - 2009.10.21 15:40:00 - [229] Originally by: edfhk'lkhff It all boils down to greif. Get off the troll comments and get real answers. Ninja salvagers are just lazy and lack standing to get there own salvage to ninja. I blow up my wrecks. I like jelly beans. Edit:WTH is TL;DR? I can run any L4 agent in caldari space, but I still choose to ninja. If the person is especially tearful and tries the warp out technique, I just bring in my CNR and get their bounties too (and the mission objective if their is one).
BunnyBuzzBunny	Posted - 2009.10.25 21:18:00 - [230] At least in Germany it doesnt work that way. If you wreck someones car, its still HIS car and you (or your insurance company, and I work for one) have to pay for the repair of said car or for replacement. Ownership never changes... Even if the car is totaled and you have to fully replace it the insurance company doesn't buy the car in in the proccess? The person that you ran into gets the car and a new one?

Funkert Here comes the pain train	Posted - 2009.10.25 22:53:00 - [231] i read the first 2 pages and the last one, so this might have been said before If i kill another player, the wreck remains his. So if you kill Guristas Obliterator, the wreck should stay his too. Or they should change the mechanic so that pvp wrecks are treated the same :) -
Bhaumut	Posted - 2009.10.25 23:07:00 - [232] Originally by: BunnyBuzzBunny At least in Germany it doesnt work that way. If you wreck someones car, its still HIS car and you (or your insurance company, and I work for one) have to pay for the repair of said car or for replacement. Ownership never changes... Even if the car is totaled and you have to fully replace it the insurance company doesn't buy the car in in the proccess? The person that you ran into gets the car and a new one? HAI I PAUYD VEDEEO GHAMS, U WAN BEE MAH FREEND. I really do not think this game is for you. I think im actually going to deviate from training up my pewpew skills and toss in some salvaging ones.. just so i can help with the community interaction skills some really need.. like posting stuff like this for me to respond to. Sooo "Bunny" .. i like bunnies.. where abouts do you mission? I mean, I want to totally avoid that system on my main so I do not get ninja salvaged and such.You can trust me, i like bunnies.
BunnyBuzzBunny	Posted - 2009.11.04 15:32:00 - [233] Originally by: Max Hatter Originally by: edfhk'lkhff Edited by: edfhk''lkhff on 17/10/2009 14:52:11 It all boils down to greif. Get off the troll comments and get real answers. Ninja salvagers are just lazy and lack standing to get there own salvage to ninja. I blow up my wrecks. I like jelly beans. Edit:WTH is TL;DR? That's not the truth. I've done missions and I hated it. It's so god damn boring. You do the same thing over and over again and you have almost no social interaction. I think most ninjas have done missions but found it lacking. Hell I even found mining to be more fun then missioning. Ninja salvaging is more varied you have the chance to get some PvP action. It even demands more skills (not skillpoints mind you) then mission running. I'm always looking to evolve my ninja salvaging skills. Not because I need more ISK (I could do missions or trading or something for that.) but because I find it challenging. But you who are against ninja salvaging probably won't care about what I'm saing anyway. You are dead sure we are just in this for the grief and as you say, we are to lazy. So then.....what is the challenge in Ninja salvaging? You probe out a mission. You fly in and salvage. WOW....That was hard and SOOOoooo Challenging. What other reason could you possibly have other than greif or money?
Tristan Acoma Caldari Dirah Dominion Dirah Dominion.	Posted - 2009.11.04 15:42:00 - [234] Originally by: BunnyBuzzBunny So then.....what is the challenge in Ninja salvaging? You probe out a mission. You fly in and salvage. WOW....That was hard and SOOOoooo Challenging. What other reason could you possibly have other than greif or money? Well..... then again, solo mining high sec veldspar isn't particularly profitable or technically challenging. Obviously the miners are griefing the asteroids, it couldn't possibly be for fun or ISK :)
BunnyBuzzBunny	Posted - 2009.11.04 15:49:00 - [235] Edited by: BunnyBuzzBunny on 04/11/2009 15:50:20 Originally by: Tristan Acoma Originally by: BunnyBuzzBunny So then.....what is the challenge in Ninja salvaging? You probe out a mission. You fly in and salvage. WOW....That was hard and SOOOoooo Challenging. What other reason could you possibly have other than grief or money? Well..... then again, solo mining high sec veldspar isn't particularly profitable or technically challenging. Obviously the miners are griefing the asteroids, it couldn't possibly be for fun or ISK :) Not true....know a lot of people that mine in large groups and they make decent money and have a good time. may not be technically challenging.....but t is enjoyable to them. I also know a couple people that enjoy mining on their own.....and they do make money at it and it is a mindless thing to do while they work at home.(Double the isk making....lol) I was questioning this guy as to what he does get out of ninja'ing since he says he doesn't do it for money or grief.
BunnyBuzzBunny	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:09:00 - [236] Originally by: Maddock Krug Hey. @SixToOne You are right: Salvaging is not as profitable as very few MRwh*s claim it to be. Whilst you ask why Ninjas do it, you give some of more or less likely answers yourself. But there are many, many, many more more or less answers as well. Just start to use your brain and think in gameterms and gamemechanics and terms of EvE Experience. I cannot fully disagree with you, but I won't agree with you to any degree with anything you've spit into this thread. Because all in all you are wrong. First of: What you claim to be the intention of ninjas is, what may be right for some ninjas. But I have seen many ninjas just salvaging, and neither looting nor ganking the poor, poor, poor MR. So your statement on the griefdom by ninjas is incorrect, as it does not apply with all of 'em. Secondly: It is a legend, albeit a wrong legend, that ninjas are aught to be unseen while they do something. As many have told in this topic and in many other topics as well: comparisons with RL is - as always within any game - something to better leave aside, 'cause it is not comparable. That's why you are very wrong with your assumption on this. Thirdly: I am happy to figure that most MR really don't care (much) about ninjas; they run their missions and want ISK; that's why they don't waste time on salvaging and looting, as most missions (even L4s) don't really give so much valuable stuff (compared with bounties and rewards and also related with the missions sites); so focussing on bounties, rewards and time bonuses alone is what makes you really rich - all this with the assumption that you solo-run missions with mediochre skills, hoping that most eve player have them, realizing though they have not (seen to many people in lvl 4s just failing to do it right ...). Since I do ninja salvage (and sometimes loot as well), I more often get fleet invites to get along faster; and I get rambling fools **ing their pants whilst emoraging on local or PM or private convo very seldomly. That's why I conclude: The very few bickering about ninjas salvaging their missions behave like owning the truth, although they are -in fact- a poor and simple-minded minority claiming things which simply don't exist and which don't match with the EvE-wide common sense. Fly reckless! Mad OMG OMG OMG......That is the largest load of BS I have ever heard. I basically reads as"Yes...I agree with what you are saying but I can't bring my self up to an adult level to agree with you because that would make me something that I am not and I want to remain this annoying philosofical whimsy guy that truly doesn't want to agree with anything in life that another says because then I would be just like someone else and I can't be just like someone else because I have to keep my RL lameness seperate from my persona in the game as IRL I am just like everything and everyone around......blah....blah...blah...blah" First OFF:You are right...some people do it for the money and not the grief because it is so profitable. Secondly:Then why compare it to something in Real life if not to make real life comparisons? Thirdly: How would you know seeing that you are not a mission runner(As niether is 95% of the people that have responded to this thread.) There is a good deal ammount of money to be made in salvaging/looting the missions if done right. I can honestly say that it damn near doubles the ammount of ISK made. Happy spoofing.
James Tritanius	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:10:00 - [237] Originally by: BunnyBuzzBunny So then.....what is the challenge in Ninja salvaging? You probe out a mission. You fly in and salvage. WOW....That was hard and SOOOoooo Challenging. What's the challenge in salvaging your own mission? You don't even have to probe it out and you can use tractor beams. Originally by: BunnyBuzzBunny What other reason could you possibly have other than greif or money? Wait... you mean there are reasons other than those two to play this game?
B1FF	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:51:00 - [238] I stopped reading at "In the USA if you. . ." AFK parallels always fail. In AFK/RL we don't have space ships so we should remove them from EvE. Also the premise in the subject is nonsensical. There is no legality. There are only the rules CCP states. CCP says they are junk owned by no one then they are junk owned by no one. If you don't like it leave.
arbiter reformed Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:55:00 - [239] IN 'UMERICA WE GOT MAD AND SHOOT STUFF WHEN PPL TAKE OUR **!!! ** YEH Signature graphics that may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to Eve Online. All content must be in good taste.Applebabe
Smartus Maximus Gallente Somali Coastguard Authority	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:56:00 - [240] The mission runner will ALWAYS earn more money than the ninja salvager.



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