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Precisionist	Posted - 2009.11.03 18:58:00 - [1] IMO the needed gallente need a boost, and perhaps all of blasters need a boost in range. Eos- the limited drone capacity makes this useless. Deimos- 1 high slot needs to be a med or low slot, for either extra speed or extra cap capabilities. Or it needs more velocity or a speed bonus instead of 1 of the HAC bonus. Phobos- is in need of at least a 25 drone capacity and 25 drone band. Sin- well like all black ops they kinda suck. Myrm- more drone bandwidth. Ishtar- it is slow and fragile- IMO change velocity from 181 to 190. Pretty much everyone will choose lasers or AC's on gallente ships because they are usually useless in most pvp fights. And rails do sht damage. I think a boost in blasters will fix a lot of gallente ship problems.
Sir Fourhead Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.03 19:05:00 - [2] TELL ME SIR WHAT IS YOUR PLAN TO BOOST BLASTERS WITHOUT HEDGING OUT ACS OR PULSES
Draeklore Unknown-Entity Maru Ka'ge	Posted - 2009.11.03 19:26:00 - [3] Originally by: Precisionist IMO the needed gallente need a boost, and perhaps all of blasters need a boost in range. Eos- the limited drone capacity makes this useless. Deimos- 1 high slot needs to be a med or low slot, for either extra speed or extra cap capabilities. Or it needs more velocity or a speed bonus instead of 1 of the HAC bonus. Phobos- is in need of at least a 25 drone capacity and 25 drone band. Sin- well like all black ops they kinda suck. Myrm- more drone bandwidth. Ishtar- it is slow and fragile- IMO change velocity from 181 to 190. Pretty much everyone will choose lasers or AC's on gallente ships because they are usually useless in most pvp fights. And rails do sht damage. I think a boost in blasters will fix a lot of gallente ship problems. Gallente ships that are great in pvp: Ishtar, Ishkur, Taranis, Thorax, Vexor, Domi, Mega, Arazu, Thanatos and probably others I am not thinking of To be honest I don't feel Gal ships really need much of a boost. They already have one of the best RR battleships, arguably the best interceptor, one of the best AF and HACS, and two of the best T1 cruisers.
Susy Assulu Caldari Atomic Mexicans	Posted - 2009.11.03 19:30:00 - [4] The Gallente command ships could use a hand, but the Phobos is fine. It really doesn't need a drone bay.
Precisionist	Posted - 2009.11.03 19:35:00 - [5] Originally by: Susy Assulu The Gallente command ships could use a hand, but the Phobos is fine. It really doesn't need a drone bay. true gallente commands ( well really the EOS ) is horrid. But I still think deimos is missing 1 of the followings, 1 high to mid 1 high to low boost in velocity a different HAC bonus helping velocity or change the thorax MWD bonus to speed thus changing the deimos. Phobos is probably pretty good, it does its job. But i forgot to mention the proteus lacking the 125 drone bandwidth option. which is just stupid.
Draeklore Unknown-Entity Maru Ka'ge	Posted - 2009.11.03 19:42:00 - [6] Yea you can add Phobos and Deimos to my list but they aren't the top in their league though they get the job done well.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.03 19:44:00 - [7] Originally by: Precisionist true gallente commands ( well really the EOS ) is horrid. Wha? The Gallente Fleet Command Ship is doomed to be a low-dps /high-tanking fleet booster? "Not packing punch as field command ships but providing bonuses to a well rounded fleet?" That's BS! Unacceptable! Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Aalu Aullard	Posted - 2009.11.03 20:04:00 - [8] Deimos cannot be fixed, get used to it. Other ships are good. Well, maybe Eos could need +25 bandwidth. And blasters in general are not really worth fitting while lasers are as good as they are now.
Precisionist	Posted - 2009.11.03 20:09:00 - [9] Originally by: Aalu Aullard Deimos cannot be fixed, get used to it. Other ships are good. Well, maybe Eos could need +25 bandwidth. And blasters in general are not really worth fitting while lasers are as good as they are now. my points exactly, though with a -1 high and a +1 med or low the deimos could be fixed. Blasters could use more range, or more damage. Because with the scramb changes, blasters practically became useless, or you die trying to get in range.
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.03 20:30:00 - [10] Originally by: Diomidis Originally by: Precisionist true gallente commands ( well really the EOS ) is horrid. Wha? The Gallente Fleet Command Ship is doomed to be a low-dps /high-tanking fleet booster? "Not packing punch as field command ships but providing bonuses to a well rounded fleet?" The Eos has a pretty crappy punch, try slowboating to get into blaster range, and it has the worst fleet command tank by far. It has unbonused drones, the only reason it doesnt have 125m3 bandwidth is because CCP hates Gallente.

Aalu Aullard	Posted - 2009.11.03 20:39:00 - [11] [Deimos, New Setup 1] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Beta Reactor Control: Reaction Control I Internal Force Field Array I 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Viscoelastic EM Ward Salubrity I Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Hammerhead II x5 There is a 822 reasons why these doesnt exist...
Precisionist	Posted - 2009.11.03 20:45:00 - [12] ya because 1 med neut wont totally screw u up? lol plz. You have no tackle, no way of staying in range cept mwd, if he has web or scramb you will never get into range. That is a fail setup.
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.03 21:00:00 - [13] Originally by: Rastigan The Eos has a pretty crappy punch, try slowboating to get into blaster range, and it has the worst fleet command tank by far. It has unbonused drones, the only reason it doesnt have 125m3 bandwidth is because CCP hates Gallente. if only there were some type of hybrid weapon that could shoot at range
Precisionist	Posted - 2009.11.03 21:05:00 - [14] Originally by: rubico1337 Originally by: Rastigan The Eos has a pretty crappy punch, try slowboating to get into blaster range, and it has the worst fleet command tank by far. It has unbonused drones, the only reason it doesnt have 125m3 bandwidth is because CCP hates Gallente. if only there were some type of hybrid weapon that could shoot at range that do horrid damage
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.03 21:07:00 - [15] Originally by: Precisionist ya because 1 med neut wont totally screw u up? lol plz. You have no tackle, no way of staying in range cept mwd, if he has web or scramb you will never get into range. That is a fail setup. You didnt notice his Deimos has 4 mid slots
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.11.03 21:17:00 - [16] Originally by: Rastigan Originally by: Diomidis Originally by: Precisionist true gallente commands ( well really the EOS ) is horrid. Wha? The Gallente Fleet Command Ship is doomed to be a low-dps /high-tanking fleet booster? "Not packing punch as field command ships but providing bonuses to a well rounded fleet?" The Eos has a pretty crappy punch, try slowboating to get into blaster range, and it has the worst fleet command tank by far. It has unbonused drones, the only reason it doesnt have 125m3 bandwidth is because CCP hates Gallente. If only it could match that combat powerhouse the Vulture...
Precisionist	Posted - 2009.11.03 21:20:00 - [17] Originally by: Rastigan Originally by: Precisionist ya because 1 med neut wont totally screw u up? lol plz. You have no tackle, no way of staying in range cept mwd, if he has web or scramb you will never get into range. That is a fail setup. You didnt notice his Deimos has 4 mid slots O I did, which is why it is even a more fail setup. If the deimos got the extra med, I will go about putting LSE, med cap boost, 28km scramb, mwd, and then nano/dmg mods in low maybe a pdu if needed, 5 rails, shield rigs.
Stil Harkonnen	Posted - 2009.11.03 22:29:00 - [18] I agree, gallente p much suck right now. lasers track better, have better range, and do almost as much damage as gallente. In reality, they do more damage than the "highest damage weapons" because of the ** range and debatable tracking on blasters. Rails are a joke for most pvp situations. scram and web changes **ed gallente over, and the fact that amarr does everything we do but better doesn't help either.
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2009.11.03 22:31:00 - [19] The myrm could use a 100 m^3 bandwidth. Or give up some highslots and turret hardpoints for 125 m^3. The Eos needs the same treatment. Or something. Biggest problem it faces is how bad information warfare links are. The deimos is desperately in need of something. Change the mwd cap bonus to a speed bonus maybe. Make it an androgynous shield tanker by moving a highslot to a midslot. Something. The diemos should provide a clear and very superior utility beyond the brutix that doesn't involve 'makes a visually satisfying more expensive explosion.' The brutix even makes a better bastard nanoship right now because you can fit a 2 slot shield tank, scam and mwd, burn around really fast doing high dps until the enemy realize you are flying a true glass cannon. Then you hope you brought some scimitars along. Gallete do not need an uber blaster boost. They need their subpar crap fixed a bit. Gallente used to make superior solo ships. Their very high dps and active armor tanks were designed to be nasty things to encounter in very small gang situations. High dps broke active tanks more quickly than anything else, and active tanks were outright superior agaisnt a small number of enemies and therefore not overwhelming dps. Gallente suffer now because their dps is hard to bring to bear in fleet fights, and active tanks instamelt agaisnt focused fire. They suffer solo now becuase their slow speeds armor tanked make them unable to aviod the blob. The successful ones like the ishtar are shield tanked. This is a problem devs would have to think about. Should Gallente stay superior at an outmoded style of combat? A style of combat more suited to pirates in lowsec than anything else. Or should they in RP terms 'modernize their arsenal for modern combat environments?' Its something the minmatar are doing right now. The tempest and the typhoon are becoming official armor tankers (shield<>armor value switch) and their fleet weaponry is being modified to preform a role in large fleets. Makes a precedent for say, changing the rep bonus on Gallente to an armor HP bonus or having it apply to remote reps. Of course the pirates need good ships for lowsec combat too...
Aalu Aullard	Posted - 2009.11.03 23:00:00 - [20] Originally by: Precisionist Originally by: Rastigan Originally by: Precisionist ya because 1 med neut wont totally screw u up? lol plz. You have no tackle, no way of staying in range cept mwd, if he has web or scramb you will never get into range. That is a fail setup. You didnt notice his Deimos has 4 mid slots O I did, which is why it is even a more fail setup. If the deimos got the extra med, I will go about putting LSE, med cap boost, 28km scramb, mwd, and then nano/dmg mods in low maybe a pdu if needed, 5 rails, shield rigs. Yeap, you are indeed correct. Your setup would work just fine. One question though: Where is the close range, Gallente-style armortanking blastercruiser now?

london Gallente Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.03 23:11:00 - [21] posting in a buff gallente thread. Blasters are broken as is, and said ships need drone bandwidth looked at again... especially with the current superiority of lasers.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.11.04 00:30:00 - [22] My fleet command ships and heavy interdictors aren;t solo pwnmobiles wah wah wha whwa hwa hwah wah wah
Sp4m Gallente Integrity.	Posted - 2009.11.04 00:55:00 - [23] Cache cleared.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.	Posted - 2009.11.04 02:13:00 - [24] Representing in another gallente whine thread.
Letifer Deus Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.11.04 02:16:00 - [25] another mid won't fix the deimos because it doesn't give it anything that separates it's abilities/role from a brutix. 20% ab bonus in lieu of the mwd cap bonus. boom. -increased survivability -another 100pg and 25 cpu to play with -gets a role the brutix doesn't have ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Celen Guyver	Posted - 2009.11.04 02:21:00 - [26] Originally by: Gypsio III My fleet command ships and heavy interdictors aren;t solo pwnmobiles wah wah wha whwa hwa hwah wah wah Yeah, because information warfare links are totally useful.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.11.04 04:38:00 - [27] Originally by: Precisionist Eos- the limited drone capacity makes this useless. Deimos- 1 high slot needs to be a med or low slot, for either extra speed or extra cap capabilities. Or it needs more velocity or a speed bonus instead of 1 of the HAC bonus. Phobos- is in need of at least a 25 drone capacity and 25 drone band. Sin- well like all black ops they kinda suck. Myrm- more drone bandwidth. Ishtar- it is slow and fragile- IMO change velocity from 181 to 190. 1.) No, Fleet Cmds are not suppossed to fight, but to tank and boost fleets. If it needs something, then Repair Amount Bonus -> Armor HP. 2.) Deimos could use maybe 1 more Medslot. 3.) All other HICs have poor DPS and Phobos is the only HIC with decent DPS. No boost needed here for sure. 5.) Maybe 100m3 bandwith would be good. 6.) All HACs, except the Sac, are fragile. Ishtar is completly fine as it is.
EFT Worrier	Posted - 2009.11.04 06:07:00 - [28] Edited by: EFT Worrier on 04/11/2009 06:07:40 I think it's true. Reason is: Lasers >> Rails. Lasers >>>>>> Blasters. Blasters need more range or a range buff to null to compensate for web + scram changes. Other stuff: - Myrmidom deserves 100mbit/s in place of a turret slot. - Diemos deserves optimal bonus, not falloff (so it could at least be used as either suicide lolblaster failboat or sniper). - Armour repair bonuses need a rethink, eg: +armour HP, or +speed or +agility bonuses in order to make close-range setups somewhat viable against laser-boats with 90% the dmg and 300% the range.
Hidden Snake Caldari Inglorious-Basterds	Posted - 2009.11.04 07:10:00 - [29] OP u wanna fly gaylente ships with amar tank, laser ranger, minmatar speed, and caldari shield tank. I would say first try some standart fits, second learn to fly them, learn piloting itself (not just aproach f1, f2, f3...), come back and tell us. Gallente has some nice ships, and some of the best ships in the game. Of course if u will try to kill my rupture in your ishkur u will die horribly in most situations, but that is the way of eve. Get understanding when u can win and when is time to gtfo.
Kail Storm Caldari Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.11.04 07:14:00 - [30] Ok I have questions for u gal guys and if I understand them I will cry for a buff for u guys also.... Why do you guys all say rails suck? Do they lack DPS? If so will someone show me some comparisions to other weapons. Also rails suck are you sure its not ship bonuses? They have to have better tracking than Lasers. Anyways I have heard they suck alot and seriously question why ccp would make them so bad they should be when using short range ammo in line with Scorch DMG for pulses IMO. If you run, You`ll only die tired :)

Shade Millith Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.04 08:50:00 - [31] Originally by: Stil Harkonnen scram and web changes ****ed gallente over, Ok, this is something that I keep hearing, and have yet to understand WHY the changes have 'screwed over gallente' --------------------------------------------
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.04 08:55:00 - [32] Originally by: Sir Fourhead TELL ME SIR WHAT IS YOUR PLAN TO BOOST BLASTERS WITHOUT HEDGING OUT ACS OR PULSES Ask and ye shall recieve although try to be less of a EMOTARD in future. Make the iron ammo do roughly the same dmg as MF (as it still has a lower optimal) then slightly increase that dmg for each lower range ammo until you get down to AM that does either the same dmg as it does now or maybe a little more. This way amarr BS will still have: 1. insta reload 2. much greater available optimal range 3. better EHP But at least blaster ships will no longer be a utterly limited and rather worthless one trick pony compared to lasers and have a slight DPS advantage below MF optimal unlike now where MF has the advantage down to 6-8km.
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.11.04 09:01:00 - [33] Originally by: Kail Storm Also rails suck are you sure its not ship bonuses? They have to have better tracking than Lasers. 425mm railgun 0.0962 Tachyon T2 = 0.01329 Tachyon T2 has better tracking than 425mm rails.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2009.11.04 09:11:00 - [34] Blasters could do with a tracking and dmg boost the range isnt fine but it isnt ment to be - the issue with the weapon system is theres little reward for getting in so close. The guns miss and only hit for what the other weapon systems do at tripple the ranges. Also factor in the types of setups that are used for getting in so close, simply not enough face melting action once you do. This is why lasers are FOTM, if blasters had 25% more dmg and tracking the range advantage of lasers would diminish and create more even ballence. this is what i think, poo to you with knobs on if you dont like it.
Ralavina	Posted - 2009.11.04 10:05:00 - [35] Originally by: Shade Millith Originally by: Stil Harkonnen scram and web changes ***ed gallente over, Ok, this is something that I keep hearing, and have yet to understand WHY the changes have 'screwed over gallente' don't be obtuse. Webs went form 90% speed reduction to 60% - ships can now orbit much faster than before. That's fine* but blasters optimal range is about 2km for mediums and about 3-5km for large. Ships now going about 4x as fast when webbed (1000m/s > 100m/s has now become 1000m/s > 400m/s) and the blasters, at that very close range, cannot track them. Blasters have a slightly higher damage output at their optimal, but it's very difficult to even approach that level of DPS if the target is moving, due to tracking. The web change, whilst it was a good thing overall, left Gallente blaster boats much further behind the other races as in order to do any damage they HAVE to engage in web range. Unless you 60% your damage and use Null but that tracking's pretty terrible too. What Gallente need is an increase in tracking (not a huge amount, say, 10-20%) across the board for blasters and perhaps a little more added to the damage modifier to compensate for the fact that 95% of the time you wont be firing at your exact optimal range with no tracking issues. Ralara's banned again so this is my alt :p
Shade Millith Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.04 10:43:00 - [36] Edited by: Shade Millith on 04/11/2009 10:44:15 Originally by: Ralavina Originally by: Shade Millith Originally by: Stil Harkonnen scram and web changes ***ed gallente over, Ok, this is something that I keep hearing, and have yet to understand WHY the changes have 'screwed over gallente' don't be obtuse. Webs went form 90% speed reduction to 60% - ships can now orbit much faster than before. That's fine* but blasters optimal range is about 2km for mediums and about 3-5km for large. Ships now going about 4x as fast when webbed (1000m/s > 100m/s has now become 1000m/s > 400m/s) and the blasters, at that very close range, cannot track them. Blasters have a slightly higher damage output at their optimal, but it's very difficult to even approach that level of DPS if the target is moving, due to tracking. The web change, whilst it was a good thing overall, left Gallente blaster boats much further behind the other races as in order to do any damage they HAVE to engage in web range. Unless you 60% your damage and use Null but that tracking's pretty terrible too. What Gallente need is an increase in tracking (not a huge amount, say, 10-20%) across the board for blasters and perhaps a little more added to the damage modifier to compensate for the fact that 95% of the time you wont be firing at your exact optimal range with no tracking issues. So? Use a scram and web? Or how about scram and dual webs? Edit : I do agree that blasters should have more tracking. --------------------------------------------
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.11.04 11:34:00 - [37] Edited by: Tippia on 04/11/2009 11:34:52 Originally by: Ralavina Webs went form 90% speed reduction to 60% - ships can now orbit much faster than before. That's fine but blasters optimal range is about 2km for mediums and about 3-5km for large. Ships now going about 4x as fast when webbed (1000m/s > 100m/s has now become 1000m/s > 400m/s) and the blasters, at that very close range, cannot track them. If they're flying at 400m/s, you still receive the 6+ sig modifier from the MWD they have active, which means that for tracking purposes, they're actually going at 66m/s. At 2k range, that's an angular velocity of 0.033 rad/s — well below even the slowest-tracking of medium blasters… Also, in terms of raw speed, it's worth remembering that New Web (+0.4 speed) + New Scram (+0.16 speed) is very much like Old Web (+0.1 speed) + Old Scram (no speed change). So no, the orbit speed before and after the change has nothing to do with the post-QR performance of blasters — it's actually the lack of an active MWD on the target that makes all the difference. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
ropnes	Posted - 2009.11.04 11:54:00 - [38] Exactly The scram doesn't help you hit any better because the reduced sig cancels out the reduced speed
Hidden Snake Caldari Inglorious-Basterds	Posted - 2009.11.04 13:00:00 - [39] Guys stop eft warrioring and try scam web combo directly in the game. U cannot fly gal non drone ship without it.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.11.04 13:06:00 - [40] Originally by: Hidden Snake Guys stop eft warrioring and try scam web combo directly in the game. U cannot fly gal non drone ship without it. That has to do with controlling range — not orbit speeds and hit chances. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki

Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.04 13:21:00 - [41] Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Kail Storm Also rails suck are you sure its not ship bonuses? They have to have better tracking than Lasers. 425mm railgun 0.0962 Tachyon T2 = 0.01329 Tachyon T2 has better tracking than 425mm rails. Thank you, most of the Gallente has 'awesum' ships posts have been by people who have no clue, especially the Eos comments. Every Fleet command ship has a usefull niche: Vulture: Wicked passive,active, buffer tank and low dps, but extreme range sniping. Claymore: Autocannons that track frigates like mad, incredible burst active tank, compliments hac/recon gangs very well with its skirmish bonuses. Damnation: Obscene buffer tank, bonuses make RR BS gangs even stronger. Eos: has the ability to make people say wtf is an Eos? Like a Myrmidon without a Drone Bonus, weaker tank than some field command ships.
Ralavina	Posted - 2009.11.04 14:03:00 - [42] Edited by: Ralavina on 04/11/2009 14:03:53 Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 04/11/2009 11:34:52 If they're flying at 400m/s, you still receive the 6+ sig modifier from the MWD they have active, which means that for tracking purposes, they're actually going at 66m/s. afterburner... Yes, I'm aware that Amarr and Minmitar also have this issue with small ships orbitting at 500m with afterburners on however they have the luxury of doing full/near full damage at 10,20,30km away whilst Gallente Blaster boats have to be within 5km to be within the optimal. The main issue is that the optimal of blasters will always be very close up and now that webs allow them to go 4x faster than they were previously, that's a 4x tracking loss that the blaster boats got. Quote: At 2k range, that's an angular velocity of 0.033 rad/s ù well below even the slowest-tracking of medium blastersà Also, in terms of raw speed, it's worth remembering that New Web (+0.4 speed) + New Scram (+0.16 speed) is very much like Old Web (+0.1 speed) + Old Scram (no speed change). So no, the orbit speed before and after the change has nothing to do with the post-QR performance of blasters ù it's actually the lack of an active MWD on the target that makes all the difference. No, because many people fit afterburners on their ships - AFs, frigates, some HACs, Pilgrims etc. Sure, you rarely see an afterburning Raven or something but whereas before the megathron/hyperion (which has no tracking bonus) would be able to at least get some hits in, due to the 4x faster velocity of the targets, the tracking is screwed. Yes you can still kill stuff and no, blasters aren't dead but it's a combination of the web changes and the fact that blasters (which are meant to be the highest DPS weapons in the game) require to be between 500 and 5000 meters in order to work properly. As outlined above, this creates a lot of problems with tracking meaning the theoretical max DPS is very rarely achieved compared to pulse lasers or autocannons (although autocannons aren't too far off blasters with this problem too). You can argue against it all you want, but you're wrong. Ralara's banned again so this is my alt :p
Arrador	Posted - 2009.11.04 14:07:00 - [43] Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Kail Storm Also rails suck are you sure its not ship bonuses? They have to have better tracking than Lasers. 425mm railgun 0.0962 Tachyon T2 = 0.01329 Tachyon T2 has better tracking than 425mm rails. I guess my math and understanding of rads is fubared. But isn't 0.0962 > 0.01329 ?
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.11.04 14:12:00 - [44] Edited by: Tippia on 04/11/2009 14:13:34 Originally by: Ralavina afterburner... Yes, I'm aware that Amarr and Minmitar also have this issue with small ships orbitting at 500m with afterburners on however they have the luxury of doing full/near full damage at 10,20,30km away whilst Gallente Blaster boats have to be within 5km to be within the optimal. Fortunately, the Gallente (in particular) have a special recipe against these pests in the form of drones, so they arguably have less problem than most races. Quote: No, because many people fit afterburners on their ships - AFs, frigates, some HACs, Pilgrims etc. Yes. You see a lot of those, mainly on killmails, since they're too slow and can't control range. Originally by: Arrador Originally by: lecrotta 425mm railgun 0.0962 Tachyon T2 = 0.01329 Tachyon T2 has better tracking than 425mm rails. I guess my math and understanding of rads is fubared. But isn't 0.0962 > 0.01329 ? Your math knowledge is ok — it's lecrotta's copy-pasting skills that are fubared. The numbers for the 425mm are one zero short – it should be 0.00962 rad/s. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.11.04 15:00:00 - [45] Originally by: Arrador Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Kail Storm Also rails suck are you sure its not ship bonuses? They have to have better tracking than Lasers. 425mm railgun 0.0962 Tachyon T2 = 0.01329 Tachyon T2 has better tracking than 425mm rails. I guess my math and understanding of rads is fubared. But isn't 0.0962 > 0.01329 ? Yea it looks like i missed off a 0, but then if you had trudged through wind and snow fighting off hostile aliens and rabid polar bears just to.....left click the frigin weapon systems yourself and look at the bloody stats instead of being a lazy git like most ppl on here it would not have been necessary. EMOPRANT over.
Precisionist	Posted - 2009.11.04 15:12:00 - [46] Well if they give gallente ships more speed, at least for blaster boats, it will help, but still, blaster should be getting more tracking/damage or more range. And give rails more damage.
Hidden Snake Caldari Inglorious-Basterds	Posted - 2009.11.04 15:48:00 - [47] well i must say u guys should learn how to pilot ships with scram and control range ... It is no more click approach and see what will happen.
Brent riper Caldari Night Wolves Deprived of Existence by Mercenaries of the Night	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:06:00 - [48] srsly though gallente .. a buff....., the same gall that has highest dps in game srsly now think about what your post is saying one of the best Armour tanks in game passive and active. fleet rr mega domi is unstoppable, now for sniping agreed they suck, the other races do have better sniping then they do. but rly sniping isn't something seen except in 0.0 or off a low sec gate or what not, in hi sec its all station games and blasters ftw. and if your complaining about tracking speed on range guns common rly srsly when the hell did u need to track something out 150km, and when would u even hit it if it was moving fast enough, chances are its a frig or crusier GL with that if its burning MWD. now bc and bs ur gonna hit it unless u rly rly suck. if u need tracking to be higher then what ur shooting u should webb it scram it and blasterise it, dont use a railgun or tachyon to shoot a frig orbiting u... jst doesn't work. tracking statement is thus irrelevant, the only thing that i will agree on with galle is that their range for sniping is weak. their alpha and dmg is lower but man the rof is faster, but rly cald and amarr are the best snipers. min ok but rof blows. so the sniping argument inst really justified each race has problems in some areas as well as bonus in another. rly they don't need a buff, gallente are jst fine they fit right in with all the rest of the races for pvp, actually the Ishtar is probably the most impressive powerful HAC out there it definitely doesn't need a boost, as far as everything else the pilot is what makes the ship and the fitting makes it work, lasers and ACs are nice for the range but vs dps gallente wins, now commands well gall commands used to be ganky ganky what other commands can do it NONE cald commands dps pathetic amarr commands dps rather weak u can make it decent but rly they are BC hulls, mini slepniers can deal some dmg but rly its still a bc, and commands aren't meant for running around solo popping ships hence the fleet command bonus they give. tbh gall are fine so are the other races for pvp if anything cald could use a boost but rly jst adapt a good cald fleet or pilot is still very powerful, srsly gallente dont need a buff neither do any other races they all have their niche. pre drone nerf gall were op now they are jst fine. sry for the wall o text :P AND further more, Carthage must be destroyed!!
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:08:00 - [49] Originally by: Hidden Snake well i must say u guys should learn how to pilot ships with scram and control range ... It is no more click approach and see what will happen. This is a thread about making the ships in eve reasonably balanced as far as their respective and individual abilities are concerned and as such piloting skills and the pvp knowledge and abilities of the pilots have to be considered equal. So while im sure you can either kill or think you can educate noobs on how to fly a variety of ships correctly it is irrelavant to the discussion.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:13:00 - [50] You know you have been playing a long time when the posts seem allll toooo familiar.

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:13:00 - [51] Originally by: Brent riper srsly though gallente .. a buff....., the same gall that has highest dps in game srsly now think about what your post is saying So you look at a single number at a VERY VERY limited range and see that its maybe 10% more than another race and call that research?.....go away. Originally by: Brent riper one of the best Armour tanks in game passive and active. There are only 4 races dude so "one of the best" can be third on a very short list. Originally by: Brent riper fleet rr mega domi is unstoppable, SOBER UP AND EDIT YOUR POST. Originally by: Brent riper sry for the wall o text :P No need to Apologise after reading the stuff i commented on above i ignored the rest.
Brent riper Caldari Night Wolves Deprived of Existence by Mercenaries of the Night	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:16:00 - [52] oh and for speed, ahem ahem, webbers scrams work well or even a set of warrior IIs lets face it if its moving that fast ur meds drones aren't gonna do squat. and if that still doesnt work for u then maybe you should try not chasing and interceptor with a cruiser. (cept vagabond)and that would be an entire different thread. rly though if u cant do it then A) not fit right B) ur in the wrong ship C) u jst plain suck D) All of the above AND further more, Carthage must be destroyed!!
Kail Storm Caldari Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:25:00 - [53] Edited by: Kail Storm on 04/11/2009 16:32:44 don't be obtuse. Webs went form 90% speed reduction to 60% - ships can now orbit much faster than before. That's fine but blasters optimal range is about 2km for mediums and about 3-5km for large. Ships now going about 4x as fast when webbed (1000m/s > 100m/s has now become 1000m/s > 400m/s) and the blasters, at that very close range, cannot track them. Ok this is very misleading and IMO not accurate, normally When you in fighting/Web range you are also in scram range so how is your target doing 1k m/s? Also if they are doing 1k m/s, and you web them and they go to 400 m/s there sig bloomed to 5 times there ship size so you shoud have no trouble hitting em at all. Basically the real speed thing seems fine to me with 60% web, this takes the majority of your cruiser targets from 200 m/s to 80 m/s. Bc`s from 180 to 60 ish etc etc....Seems fine to me lol if you cant hit ships doing sub 100 m/s in actually speed [not MWD bloomed etc] somethings wrong. Also all you guys who are saying GAl ships need tracking bad, But we will take speed instead, that is lol all it will do is make your tracking problems worse since the angular and transversals are bound to go up...It loses its sting when you guys say we need tracking sooooooo bad...But we will take speed if we can get it, it looks like you will take anything lol If you run, You`ll only die tired :)
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.04 17:19:00 - [54] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 04/11/2009 17:24:04 Originally by: Tippia At 2k range, that's an angular velocity of 0.033 rad/s ù well below even the slowest-tracking of medium blastersà Not that I'm accusing you of it directly Tippia, but it is an incredibly common misconception that if something is "below" your tracking, you have a 100% chance to hit. Any transversal whatsoever decreases your chance to hit, and lower chances to hit suffer from hit quality reduction. (Same problem with falloff.) But lets do some math to see how it works out: Attacker: A medium sized ship with Heavy Neutrons, with the proper skills, on a ship without a tracking bonus. Target: Similar sized ship. Let's say a cruiser for example. At 2KM, if the target has 400m/s transversal with a MWD on, you will do 93.9% of your EFT DPS. At 1KM, you will do 73.7% of your EFT DPS, however. That's a short distance to change. @3KM: 96.8%. @5KM: 82.9%. At 2KM, if the target is webbed and scrammed with 85m/s transversal, you will do 92.9% of your EFT DPS. At 1KM you will do 77.5%. @3KM: 96.4%. @5KM: 82.8% If the target has an AB instead, with 125m/s webbed transversal, you do 83.5% DPS at 2KM and a sad 47.5% DPS at 1KM. @3KM: 91.9%. @5KM: 81.4% It's obvious that the biggest issue with blasters is getting into and maintaining optimal. The very short sweet spot is a problem, because a 1KM change with the same transversal - even when webbed - ruins your DPS. These examples assume a perfect orbit however, and I think in real circumstances, that isn't likely to happen, since the blaster ship can maneuver to minimize transversal as well. I'm basically arguing myself in circles here, but I've always believed blasters should be able to hit a target perfectly and for extreme damage within their short optimal. Once the projectile changes go through, I'll be there with the rest of you pushing for a significant DPS + Tracking boost. I'm just not sure what percentages are fair at the moment. I don't want it to be like the old days when a Mega could eat anything alive inside its optimal...frig, cruiser, inty, whatever. EDIT: Additional Numbers.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.04 17:39:00 - [55] Edited by: The Djego on 04/11/2009 17:40:55 The web nerf was a lot worse to blaster ships then to other ships(the main reason only blaster pilots complained about it). In solo/very small gang the web was the main force multiplier that made blaster ships work. It grants: - flexible target selection - full tracking compensation at optimal - decent range control in web range - increases time till targets can build up range again(very serious issue if you end up scramed and multi webed with blasters in fights vs multiple targets) - ability to project 102% DPS on the target reasonable well if you stick with holding yourself at optimal and minimize transversal, don¦t mistake still hitting with putting full DPS on the target - hit and run game play with gank fits That are the reasons why it was a very good solo ship, and could do awesome things with high skills. This is far more important than minor DPS boosts, range or tracking, since it gives back blaster ships the edge in web range and make them again lethal predators at close range. Even 75% webs on dedicated blaster ships would help a lot to make them like they where once, superior in web range pvp, where this range isn't a handicap but your natural combat environment. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
AnKahn Caldari The Giant Squid Corp.	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:08:00 - [56] Sure substitute web boni for rep boni..whatever. With only 4 races and being able to respec and +4 implants all the hardcore gamers here should have all the races and weapon systems trained by now so everyone can fly FOTM and just STFU. Different tools for different jobs. High sec docking games...Gallente still rules. Sit out at range in your Amarr BS and see what happens. 0.0---Nano Hacs and cloakers FTW! Low sec pirates-- I donno guess they need to tank gate guns so.. cheap insurable tech one BC --FTW!! But we really know what this is all about. You all think CCP is stupid enough to boost blasters if you whine enough. Just nerf scorch a little and give blaster boats a web bonus already.
Tormod Berg	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:15:00 - [57] What kind of MMO player do I despite the most? The ones who are never satisfied!
Mr Ignitious Helljumpers	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:22:00 - [58] Originally by: Diomidis Originally by: Precisionist true gallente commands ( well really the EOS ) is horrid. Wha? The Gallente Fleet Command Ship is doomed to be a low-dps /high-tanking fleet booster? "Not packing punch as field command ships but providing bonuses to a well rounded fleet?" That's BS! Unacceptable! The Eos IS horrid, but not because it sucks at killing things but because its LINKS suck COMPLETE butt. You won't find a scenario where boosting non-tackle ewar is more useful than boosting tank or mobility. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Mr Ignitious Helljumpers	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:40:00 - [59] Originally by: Kail Storm Edited by: Kail Storm on 04/11/2009 16:32:44 don't be obtuse. Webs went form 90% speed reduction to 60% - ships can now orbit much faster than before. That's fine but blasters optimal range is about 2km for mediums and about 3-5km for large. Ships now going about 4x as fast when webbed (1000m/s > 100m/s has now become 1000m/s > 400m/s) and the blasters, at that very close range, cannot track them. Ok this is very misleading and IMO not accurate, normally When you in fighting/Web range you are also in scram range so how is your target doing 1k m/s? Also if they are doing 1k m/s, and you web them and they go to 400 m/s there sig bloomed to 5 times there ship size so you shoud have no trouble hitting em at all. Basically the real speed thing seems fine to me with 60% web, this takes the majority of your cruiser targets from 200 m/s to 80 m/s. Bc`s from 180 to 60 ish etc etc....Seems fine to me lol if you cant hit ships doing sub 100 m/s in actually speed [not MWD bloomed etc] somethings wrong. Also all you guys who are saying GAl ships need tracking bad, But we will take speed instead, that is lol all it will do is make your tracking problems worse since the angular and transversals are bound to go up...It loses its sting when you guys say we need tracking sooooooo bad...But we will take speed if we can get it, it looks like you will take anything lol There is a reason dark taboo has to blue everyone around them, its because you're all clueless morons. If you are using neutron blasters on a gallente ship, you aren't orbitting, you're keeping at range of about 1-2km because adding an extra orbit as is makes hitting anything nigh impossible. The options as proposed are tracking or speed for the following reasons: Tracking: Allowing blasters to hit orbitting targets/allow blaster ship to orbit to help mitigate damage against itself. Alternatively, Speed Increase: Making blaster ships faster means they don't get kited as easily or as long so they can actually get in range of their targets. As it is, if you land outside of 11km of a blaster ship you can just kite them and they have no hope of catching up unless you have an extra 3 tacklers to web and scram the target to **. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by:** CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Kail Storm Caldari Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:51:00 - [60] Ok this is very misleading and IMO not accurate, normally When you in fighting/Web range you are also in scram range so how is your target doing 1k m/s? Also if they are doing 1k m/s, and you web them and they go to 400 m/s there sig bloomed to 5 times there ship size so you shoud have no trouble hitting em at all. Basically the real speed thing seems fine to me with 60% web, this takes the majority of your cruiser targets from 200 m/s to 80 m/s. Bc`s from 180 to 60 ish etc etc....Seems fine to me lol if you cant hit ships doing sub 100 m/s in actually speed [not MWD bloomed etc] somethings wrong. Also all you guys who are saying GAl ships need tracking bad, But we will take speed instead, that is lol all it will do is make your tracking problems worse since the angular and transversals are bound to go up...It loses its sting when you guys say we need tracking sooooooo bad...But we will take speed if we can get it, it looks like you will take anything lol There is a reason dark taboo has to blue everyone around them, its because you're all clueless morons. If you are using neutron blasters on a gallente ship, you aren't orbitting, you're keeping at range of about 1-2km because adding an extra orbit as is makes hitting anything nigh impossible. The options as proposed are tracking or speed for the following reasons: Tracking: Allowing blasters to hit orbitting targets/allow blaster ship to orbit to help mitigate damage against itself. Alternatively, Speed Increase: Making blaster ships faster means they don't get kited as easily or as long so they can actually get in range of their targets. As it is, if you land outside of 11km of a blaster ship you can just kite them and they have no hope of catching up unless you have an extra 3 tacklers to web and scram the target to ***. Ok Helljumper Please explain why you need the Buff`s and try and not prove it with Personal insults, Seriously, you agree with the top comment about a orbiting MWD cruiser is harder to hit than not...Wow smart guy siding with... "Webs went form 90% speed reduction to 60% - ships can now orbit much faster than before. That's fine* but blasters optimal range is about 2km for mediums and about 3-5km for large. Ships now going about 4x as fast when webbed (1000m/s > 100m/s has now become 1000m/s > 400m/s) and the blasters, at that very close range, cannot track them." Good job helljumper If you run, You`ll only die tired :)

Dabljuh	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:58:00 - [61] On blasters vs lasers (and projectiles) Linkage tl;dr: Blasters need a whopping 50% more tracking, while pulse lasers need a nerf of -40% and beams need -25%. Then the tracking of the weapon systems would be in line for their optimal/falloff ranges. What can't be figured out from the charts is if blasters actually need to do more damage. Amarr ships have -cap laser bonuses for example, and not +damage like the rest. Myrmidon needs 100mb, Eos 125mb. And larger bay spaces too. 75mbs are worthless and crap, That's obvious. Eos doesn't need a drone bonus so the dominix is still the (much) higher damage droneboat.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:05:00 - [62] Originally by: Dabljuh What can't be figured out from the charts is if blasters actually need to do more damage. Amarr ships have -cap laser bonuses for example, and not +damage like the rest. Almost every Amarr ship commonly flown has a damage bonus. The obvious exception is the Apoc, and it has a massive range bonus.
Dabljuh	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:13:00 - [63] Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Dabljuh What can't be figured out from the charts is if blasters actually need to do more damage. Amarr ships have -cap laser bonuses for example, and not +damage like the rest. Almost every Amarr ship commonly flown has a damage bonus. The obvious exception is the Apoc, and it has a massive range bonus. a range bonus is often just as good as a damage bonus because it allows for a higher-damage, lower-range ammo. not always though. but you're right.
Air Scare Phobia. The Device.	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:17:00 - [64] Fixing (ie. changing) Information Warfare Links is what would fix the Eos. I could care less if it had more drone bay if its links were actually any sort of useful. But any change would be a step in the right direction I suppose. But please fix the links.
Fearless M0F0 Gallente Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:18:00 - [65] I agree is time to look into Gallente ships, that is why my CSM votes will go to a Gallente candidate willing to work hard to restore the pride of Gallente ships in this game. After 3 years of nothing but nerfs, it's time for us Gallente to raise and say ENOUGH! 1. FIX BLASTERS 2. STOP NERFING DRONES (sleepers one-shotting T2 sentries from 100km?, gimme a break) 3. And for the love of the Almighty Chribba, RESTORE HELIOS' OLD MODEL
Mr Ignitious Helljumpers	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:24:00 - [66] Originally by: Kail Storm Ok this is very misleading and IMO not accurate, normally When you in fighting/Web range you are also in scram range so how is your target doing 1k m/s? Also if they are doing 1k m/s, and you web them and they go to 400 m/s there sig bloomed to 5 times there ship size so you shoud have no trouble hitting em at all. Basically the real speed thing seems fine to me with 60% web, this takes the majority of your cruiser targets from 200 m/s to 80 m/s. Bc`s from 180 to 60 ish etc etc....Seems fine to me lol if you cant hit ships doing sub 100 m/s in actually speed [not MWD bloomed etc] somethings wrong. Also all you guys who are saying GAl ships need tracking bad, But we will take speed instead, that is lol all it will do is make your tracking problems worse since the angular and transversals are bound to go up...It loses its sting when you guys say we need tracking sooooooo bad...But we will take speed if we can get it, it looks like you will take anything lol Like you said, you said it's stupid to ask for tracking and speed yet I already explained in what scenarios those to factors are prevalent. You also say that if you can't hit something doing 80m/s something is wrong. THAT IS THE POINT. Something IS wrong, which is why a tracking boost is desired. And again i'll reiterate why speed is needed: Blasterboats are too slow to get to their range. Every other race is faster than gallente making them far too easy to kite. If you start at 11km+ on a blasterboat you're in little to no danger as long as you don't let them get close (which is easy, because they are slow) The arguments people are making are based on in game ship handling performance which is more important than the eft tracking/speed reduction/orbital velocity calculations. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Fearless M0F0 Gallente Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:30:00 - [67] How about giving Gallente blaster boats more hull hp? You still armor tank them but with a DCU it may give them just enough extra buffer to survive. Nothing like warping off with 1% hull after a gank
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:34:00 - [68] Originally by: Mr Ignitious And again i'll reiterate why speed is needed: Blasterboats are too slow to get to their range. Every other race is faster than gallente making them far too easy to kite. If you start at 11km+ on a blasterboat you're in little to no danger as long as you don't let them get close (which is easy, because they are slow) The only race that is faster than Gallente is Minmatar. Caldari and Amarr are both slow as a turtle wading through honey. Gallente drone boats tend to be slower than average for the race, but they aren't blaster boats.
Mr Ignitious Helljumpers	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:42:00 - [69] Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Mr Ignitious And again i'll reiterate why speed is needed: Blasterboats are too slow to get to their range. Every other race is faster than gallente making them far too easy to kite. If you start at 11km+ on a blasterboat you're in little to no danger as long as you don't let them get close (which is easy, because they are slow) The only race that is faster than Gallente is Minmatar. Caldari and Amarr are both slow as a turtle wading through honey. Gallente drone boats tend to be slower than average for the race, but they aren't blaster boats. The easy one to shoot down here is that caldari don't fit plates, blaster boats tend to be buffer fit with trimarks... Caldari are faster when looking at FIT ships. Amarr,it goes back and forth. Gallente are usually a little more agile but still typically slower. examples: In most configurations, proteus is slower than legion abso is faster than astarte zealot is faster than deimos geddon same speed as mega, mega is faster than abaddon (but abaddon does more damage and much better hp) harbinger is faster than brutix ALL interceptors are faster than the taranis(but taranis isn't broken, just pointing it out) That enough? I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:54:00 - [70] Originally by: Mr Ignitious The easy one to shoot down here is that caldari don't fit plates, blaster boats tend to be buffer fit with trimarks... Caldari are faster when looking at FIT ships. Good points. But it's apparent that Gallente speed problems have more to do with the detriments of armor tanking (specifically, plates and -speed on armor rigs), rather than the ships themselves. I recall in the rig balancing thread the armor rig negatives came up a lot for suggesting a different stat to penalize. Trying to fix that problem by messing with the ships themselves could open the door for many other balance problems.

Precisionist	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:56:00 - [71] This thread is turning into flat out facts, which is win IMO. I am going to keep on bumping this thread til most of these Underpower ships/guns get fixed. That what happened with other problems, people cried nano, it got nerfed, people cry AC/ART sucks, it is getting better, same with lasers, now all we need is some gallente/hybrid love and you might see some interesting fights.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.11.04 20:21:00 - [72] I personally think the Gallente problem is they aren't using Autocannons and the Minmatar problem is they aren't using Blasters. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.11.04 20:45:00 - [73] Originally by: Anubis Xian I personally think the Gallente problem is they aren't using Autocannons and the Minmatar problem is they aren't using Blasters. Actually its that ppl have not finished training lazers and amaar ships yet.
AnKahn Caldari The Giant Squid Corp.	Posted - 2009.11.04 20:51:00 - [74] Originally by: Precisionist This thread is turning into flat out facts, which is win IMO. I am going to keep on bumping this thread til most of these Underpower ships/guns get fixed. That what happened with other problems, people cried nano, it got nerfed, people cry AC/ART sucks, it is getting better, same with lasers, now all we need is some gallente/hybrid love and you might see some interesting fights. Like there's no interesting fights now. I fly Gallente. I use blasters. I see the damage blasters do on killmails. Look at what happened with lazors. Amarr went from being the red headed stepchild to the most trained set of skills. Buff blasters please. Then buff local tanks. Nerf RR. What's the next whine? If we really need to buff blasters which I actually believe makes sense but maybe doing it with some web adjustments and minor range increase or fixing T2 ammo, then we are running out of whines. (Then I woke up)
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.04 21:18:00 - [75] Originally by: AnKahn Originally by: Precisionist This thread is turning into flat out facts, which is win IMO. I am going to keep on bumping this thread til most of these Underpower ships/guns get fixed. That what happened with other problems, people cried nano, it got nerfed, people cry AC/ART sucks, it is getting better, same with lasers, now all we need is some gallente/hybrid love and you might see some interesting fights. Like there's no interesting fights now. I fly Gallente. I use blasters. I see the damage blasters do on killmails. Look at what happened with lazors. Amarr went from being the red headed stepchild to the most trained set of skills. Buff blasters please. Then buff local tanks. Nerf RR. What's the next whine? If we really need to buff blasters which I actually believe makes sense but maybe doing it with some web adjustments and minor range increase or fixing T2 ammo, then we are running out of whines. (Then I woke up) If you fix web range pvp with blaster ships, there is not much left to fix actually. You could still go for a damage boost, but this is less important in my opinion than the ability to bring the DPS you got on the target and also it was like this before QR already. What changes is that the blaster ship can claim back his role, and since amarr suck in this role(beside Harbinger and the drone ships) it is not a huge issue that blasters are a bit worse off than lasers(like it was before QR for solo/small gang). To the more speed argument, I think this isn't really needed, since kitting is a intended drawback(also a lot more of a problem in the nano age). If you have the superior power in web range, you need to work to get there. It also gives lots of ships reasons to engage you and every good fight does have some sort of kitting in the beginning what forces the blaster pilot to put some effort in it to reach web range. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Mr Ignitious Helljumpers	Posted - 2009.11.04 23:03:00 - [76] Kiting was done by nanos and got nerfed. Kiting was being reduced. While it makes sense to have SOME kiting possible, its stupid to have all races able to kite the blaster boats, its hardly rock paper scissors then. No amount of work can be done by the blaster boat because it is just outright slower than everything. The sound of armor rig draw back changes sounds good, lower penalties or just different ones, cool. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Celen Guyver	Posted - 2009.11.04 23:06:00 - [77] The only things I want to see are: A buff to information warfare links, making the Eos viable, even if it's not a combat-preferred ship. Something on par with Armored and Skirmish links, although Siege could use a buff too. Slightly more speed in the thorax and an increase of agility in the vexor. If the Myrm actually had a reason to use gallente guns over other things, that would be great too.
Kail Storm Caldari Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.11.05 02:25:00 - [78] Edited by: Kail Storm on 05/11/2009 02:28:00 Originally by: Mr Ignitious Originally by: Kail Storm Ok this is very misleading and IMO not accurate, normally When you in fighting/Web range you are also in scram range so how is your target doing 1k m/s? Also if they are doing 1k m/s, and you web them and they go to 400 m/s there sig bloomed to 5 times there ship size so you shoud have no trouble hitting em at all. Basically the real speed thing seems fine to me with 60% web, this takes the majority of your cruiser targets from 200 m/s to 80 m/s. Bc`s from 180 to 60 ish etc etc....Seems fine to me lol if you cant hit ships doing sub 100 m/s in actually speed [not MWD bloomed etc] somethings wrong. Also all you guys who are saying GAl ships need tracking bad, But we will take speed instead, that is lol all it will do is make your tracking problems worse since the angular and transversals are bound to go up...It loses its sting when you guys say we need tracking sooooooo bad...But we will take speed if we can get it, it looks like you will take anything lol Like you said, you said it's stupid to ask for tracking and speed yet I already explained in what scenarios those to factors are prevalent. You also say that if you can't hit something doing 80m/s something is wrong. THAT IS THE POINT. Something IS wrong, which is why a tracking boost is desired. And again i'll reiterate why speed is needed: Blasterboats are too slow to get to their range. Every other race is faster than gallente making them far too easy to kite. If you start at 11km+ on a blasterboat you're in little to no danger as long as you don't let them get close (which is easy, because they are slow) The arguments people are making are based on in game ship handling performance which is more important than the eft tracking/speed reduction/orbital velocity calculations. I have always agreed something has to be fixxed with Gal ships but im not sure what, I was talking about the ludacris post that was saying he cant hit a MWDing cruiser since its MWDing. But seriously show me with numbers how you in a Thorax or Vex or Myrm or Brut or whatever how you cant hit a 80 m/s ship, please show me. And yeah also on the Speed issue Cald ships are snails all the time and sure if you plate a 1600 cruiser its slower than cald ships but if you use a 800 plate on a cruiser and responsible rigs they arent that much diff on most cald ships, cald is slow period. Speed is kinda important but agility is more so IMO, since when you actively pilot your ship is changing direction and you are trying to hold range and matching your target. If you have a prob you need to look at rig side effects. But as far as Cruiser Speed agility, I dont feel bad for Gal, Sure they are slower and less nimble sometimes VS a Cara or a Moa but tell me would you rather be in a 15-20k AML cara that does 250 DPS or a 25k-30k 450 DPS Beast Rax? IMO Gal as a whole has the best and most even lineup of cruisers by far, yes Min has Ruppy, and Vaga is pretty good, But good god Vex,Rax and IShtar are top 5 best cruisers in game BY FAR so Gal is great at certain things I agree on SOME SHIPS it needs help but on others its perfectly ok. If you really need lower side effects for Armor rigs then Cald needs a Major CPU/Grid overhaul as it is in cruiser line we cant fit large/Bs sized extenders while supporting tackle and med weps, Gal ships and amarr can pretty ez. If you run, You`ll only die tired :)
Mezic	Posted - 2009.11.05 03:19:00 - [79] If you change the drawback for armor rigs, you have to change the drawbacks for shield rigs at the same time. Both plates and trimarks reduce speed, while both extender modules and rigs increase sig Makes amarr boats butt slow, and caldari boats both slow and easy to hit
Kunming T.H.U.G L.I.F.E The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.11.05 10:48:00 - [80] Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 04/11/2009 02:17:50 another mid won't fix the deimos because it doesn't give it anything that separates it's abilities/role from a brutix. 20% ab bonus in lieu of the mwd cap bonus. boom. -increased survivability -another 100pg and 25 cpu to play with -gets a role the brutix doesn't have -mwd isn't getting shut off by pesky scrams, thus greater ability to disengage. it wont do much for it in large gangs, but it will do quite well in smaller gangs, especially against BS. This is actually a good idea... But now I wonder if the MWD + Blasters combo is still a viable and working doctrine anymore.

Shazard Gallente Intaki Liberation Front	Posted - 2009.11.05 13:08:00 - [81] Edited by: Shazard on 05/11/2009 13:10:02 For me give normal Myrmidon bandwidth <- I will give one high-slot for 100 Mbit Give SOME speed to blaster boats... And blasters - what ppl sayed! There are brave ones. And then there are those whom the brave ones will follow.
Kazang Gallente Wrecking Shots	Posted - 2009.11.05 13:35:00 - [82] Overall I think gallente are fine, all races have some less than great ships. Amarr frigates for example are all terrible apart from the punisher. Some do need fixing: Deimos - It just doesn't work at all, it needs a total overhaul. Astarte/EOS - Poor tanks compared to the other CS and unreliable dps. Arazu/Lachesis - LOL DAMPS LOL SPILT WEAPONS A couple need tweaking: Myrmidon - Just very meh and subpar compared to the other tier2 BC. Hyperion - abbaddon/mael/rohk are far better. Other than that all the gal ships are OK. The only other general problem is blasters being inferior to lasers and in med/small guns autocannons too. Blasters need (slightly) more damage at point blank range and better tracking so they can actually hit at their optimal, they currently just suck, they can't hit at range and can't track at point blank just kind of useless really. You are not allowed to whine about the ishtar though. Its the king of all HACs, it does need a little more base armour hp but i can live with it how it is. The phobos doesn't need a drone bay either, the main use for a HIC is heavy tackling not dps and in most uses for a phobos such as in low sec gate camping and cap tackling drones are useless as they die to either gateguns or smartbombs. Kazang
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.11.05 14:11:00 - [83] RE: The Deimos. 4th midslot. ASSLOADS more agility. I would then fly it. Ishtar is fine - learn to sentry. Myrm is fine - you can field 5 heavy drones when I can fit siege launchers on my drake. Eos, well, yeah. Ok. Phobos is fine. Personally I think Gallente ships should be the most agile, with Minmatar the fastest - being able to modify your transversal at close ranges is a very useful thing indeed and would suit blaster-boats. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
Belle Tristesse	Posted - 2009.11.05 14:13:00 - [84] I conclude that most balancing suggestions so far are rubbish. IMO it's all about tanks. Racial tanking should go like this... Amarr - Armor Caldari - Shield Minmatar - Speed Gallente - Damage Therefore, ahem,MOAR DAMIDGE!!! I'd love to see Gallente remain up close in your face boats but with genuinely scary dps.
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.11.05 14:17:00 - [85] Originally by: Belle Tristesse I conclude that most balancing suggestions so far are rubbish. IMO it's all about tanks. Racial tanking should go like this... Amarr - Armor Caldari - Shield Minmatar - Speed Gallente - Damage Therefore, ahem,MOAR DAMIDGE!!! I'd love to see Gallente remain up close in your face boats but with genuinely scary dps. And yet amarr seem to have armour, range and dmg.....
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.11.05 15:21:00 - [86] Originally by: Stuart Price Myrm is fine - you can field 5 heavy drones when I can fit siege launchers on my drake. Sign me up for both! ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Ralavina	Posted - 2009.11.05 16:03:00 - [87] Originally by: Kail Storm Edited by: Kail Storm on 04/11/2009 16:32:44 don't be obtuse. Webs went form 90% speed reduction to 60% - ships can now orbit much faster than before. That's fine but blasters optimal range is about 2km for mediums and about 3-5km for large. Ships now going about 4x as fast when webbed (1000m/s > 100m/s has now become 1000m/s > 400m/s) and the blasters, at that very close range, cannot track them. Ok this is very misleading and IMO not accurate, normally When you in fighting/Web range you are also in scram range so how is your target doing 1k m/s? Also if they are doing 1k m/s, and you web them and they go to 400 m/s there sig bloomed to 5 times there ship size so you shoud have no trouble hitting em at all. Basically the real speed thing seems fine to me with 60% web, this takes the majority of your cruiser targets from 200 m/s to 80 m/s. Bc`s from 180 to 60 ish etc etc....Seems fine to me lol if you cant hit ships doing sub 100 m/s in actually speed [not MWD bloomed etc] somethings wrong. Also all you guys who are saying GAl ships need tracking bad, But we will take speed instead, that is lol all it will do is make your tracking problems worse since the angular and transversals are bound to go up...It loses its sting when you guys say we need tracking sooooooo bad...But we will take speed if we can get it, it looks like you will take anything lol They're just arbitrary numbers. Whatever is webbed now is going 4x faster than it was before. Yes, you can fit a scram to kill the MWD but then you need to get in to range to use that scram, as opposed to the 24km range you had before. Gallente are pretty sluggish (although not as slow as some) so if you're fitting a scram, they'll either get away because you can't get a point in time or you kill 50% of your cap trying to get in to range anyway. You can call it a trade-off but it's one that no other race has to make for its highest damage weapons - Torps > 25km. Lasers.. well, 10km > 30km no issues there. Autocannons can at least HIT targets that far out. Blasters can't. Unless you switch to Null, lose a load of tracking anyway and engage out of web range where things just MWD around you too quickly to hit properly. That's my entire point - on paper, Gallente blasters are the highest DPS but in practice, they're not because the targets are either too far out of your optimal or if they're in your optimal (look up "optimal" in the dictionary btw), you can't track them properly so either way you're not doing the damage you should - something that the other races (excepting, perhaps, autocannons) don't have to put up with. Ralara's banned again so this is my alt :p
demonfurbie Minmatar Covert-Nexus	Posted - 2009.11.05 16:07:00 - [88] for the most part is that blasters are lack luster id say that the opt needs an increase of 75% to stay on track with other ships as for the deimos the scram/web changes kinda make it a coffin more so than it already was and now with med rigs one could get a thorax do do as much dmg for much less of a cost the myrm does need 100m3 bandwith and a 200m3 drone may as it stands now my vex gets just as much dmg if not more the eos ... ohh the eos... its nice when ya fleet it with a falcon alt but not much more than that i know i dont fly mine at all the ishtar could use some more fitting both grid and cpu the oneros never gets used much because of the odd drone bonus and its lack of low slots both recons on the gal side need work mostly cause the damps
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.11.05 16:10:00 - [89] aggree , fix blasters .
Precisionist	Posted - 2009.11.05 18:07:00 - [90] Originally by: demonfurbie for the most part is that blasters are lack luster id say that the opt needs an increase of 75% to stay on track with other ships as for the deimos the scram/web changes kinda make it a coffin more so than it already was and now with med rigs one could get a thorax do do as much dmg for much less of a cost the myrm does need 100m3 bandwith and a 200m3 drone may as it stands now my vex gets just as much dmg if not more the eos ... ohh the eos... its nice when ya fleet it with a falcon alt but not much more than that i know i dont fly mine at all the ishtar could use some more fitting both grid and cpu the oneros never gets used much because of the odd drone bonus and its lack of low slots both recons on the gal side need work mostly cause the damps Ya blasters need some more damage and some more tracking, damps need to be better for gallente recons, ishtar is fine IMO, just need some factions mods or a something, I think instead of 181 base velocity, 186-191 would improve it atittle. Deimos is screwed 8 ways from sunday, Eos needs 125 m bandwidth, it doesnt get a drone dmg bonus so its fair. The information warlinks needs to be looked at. Myrm should be 100 m bandwidth, so you could fit like 4 sentrys or something. The logi for gallente never tried. but the eos-myrm-deimos-proteus(drone bay)recons are total sht compared to the other races. CCP needs to see this and hopefully put it in by dominion. Also blasters damps and active armor tanks are sht atm. Need something changed. Blasterships suck like someone else said, but you need to tackle and tank, but if you tank and tackle no speed, so drone boats are the only real viable way to use gallente, and there are only 2 drone boats that dont suck, ishtar/domi.

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.05 18:38:00 - [91] The problem is that a lot of ppl consider "close range" to be 4.5km when the truth is that close range starts at around 13-14km as that is where standard webs take effect and its well within point range and as such blasters should at least match or out damage with its various ammos every other system within that range the closer to 0 you get. So neutron blasters on a mega: With iron matches the dmg of MF with a 14km optimal. Then: With tungson 3% more dmg than MF with a 13km optimal. With iridium 6% more dmg than MF with a 11km optimal. With lead 9% more dmg than MF with a 9km optimal. With thorium 12% more dmg than MF with a 7.9km optimal. With urainium 15% more dmg than MF with a 6.8km optimal. With plutonium 18% more dmg than MF with a 5.6km optimal. And at the lowest range AM out damaging MF by 21% at 4.5km optimal. Blaster falloff would need to be reduced or adjusted and these figures may need to be altered slightly as they are just rough but at least they will give ppl with a clue the basic idea of a fix that would make blasters the best close range weapon system again instead of pulse ruling long and short range. Obviously simular adjusdtments could be done to medium and small blasters with med and small MF fitted pulse as the guides.
wallenbergaren	Posted - 2009.11.05 19:33:00 - [92] Oneiros should get some kind of bonus to make it appealing Like a higher sensor strength or something
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.11.05 19:36:00 - [93] Edited by: lecrotta on 05/11/2009 19:35:57 Originally by: wallenbergaren Oneiros should get some kind of bonus to make it appealing Like a higher sensor strength or something It did but have good bonuses they gimped the crap out of tracking links a year or two ago.
demonfurbie Minmatar Covert-Nexus	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:29:00 - [94] its not gal ships over all they are fine its blasters/rails/damps that have the issues blasters do not have a huge range like lasers or long fall off like projectiles but they do have the drawbacks of both of those wep systems (cap use and reload/ammo use) granted blasters do have higher damage but with the webs being less effective at slowing ships down and scrams turning off mwds a blaster ship has issues getting into range and holding a target to were it can hit it for any dmg rails have similar issues on gal ships but on cal ships they are nice due to the range bonuses that cal get instead of dmg bonuses and the fact that cal use mid slots to tank and there rail ships get a res bonus so even less needed there for they can use more low slots for dmg mods and at least 1 more mid for tracking there fore they can do the same dmg as gal ships at a much further range (rohk v hype/mega sniper fit) damps really got hit by scripting nerf but over all its damp ships that need a looking at. drone ships are over all fine they just need a bit of tweaking (1 less high slot on the myrm 25m3 more bandwidth) the log ship/eos needs more work over all just dont know how
Eseay	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:38:00 - [95] amarr ships arn't what they used to be either. stop whining and adapt.
Precisionist	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:44:00 - [96] Originally by: demonfurbie its not gal ships over all they are fine its blasters/rails/damps that have the issues blasters do not have a huge range like lasers or long fall off like projectiles but they do have the drawbacks of both of those wep systems (cap use and reload/ammo use) granted blasters do have higher damage but with the webs being less effective at slowing ships down and scrams turning off mwds a blaster ship has issues getting into range and holding a target to were it can hit it for any dmg rails have similar issues on gal ships but on cal ships they are nice due to the range bonuses that cal get instead of dmg bonuses and the fact that cal use mid slots to tank and there rail ships get a res bonus so even less needed there for they can use more low slots for dmg mods and at least 1 more mid for tracking there fore they can do the same dmg as gal ships at a much further range (rohk v hype/mega sniper fit) damps really got hit by scripting nerf but over all its damp ships that need a looking at. drone ships are over all fine they just need a bit of tweaking (1 less high slot on the myrm 25m3 more bandwidth) the log ship/eos needs more work over all just dont know how Pretty much what this guy said, I think he missed deimos having a extra high and a shortage of med or low tho. But this is pot on, CCP due something or give us AC bonus's. FIX the Underpowered mods and make it good at something. All about balance, one thing that ruins gameplay is lack of balance, well atm gallente is OUT of whack and does not compare to other races Overall.
Kopaczek1	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:54:00 - [97] Originally by: Eseay stop whining and adapt. You mean train amarr?
Aalu Aullard	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:32:00 - [98] Deimos... If it had 4 mids, people would start fitting shield tank and rails, and its not what the ship is supposed to do. How about: Ions Small nos Mwd Scram Web Nano DCU Eanm Energized reactive Magstab 800mm RT Collision Burst ECM Vespas I have no access to eft atm, so cant check the stats. But i think it was doing nicely around 2400m/s with overloaded mwd. Overloaded faction web for 15km+ web range to close in, scram to finally shutdown the targets movement. My mains skills put the dps around 450 and 30k ehp... Tank is still bit thin and needs to be careful what to engage. But im certain that this fit works better than the sluggish 1600mm RT + trimarks. If Deimos is changed, then maybe the CPU/PG needs slight adjustment. Maybe bit more basespeed. If i remember correctly, Deimos has same speed as Sacriledge.
EFT Worrier	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:57:00 - [99] Originally by: demonfurbie its not gal ships over all they are fine its blasters/rails/damps that have the issues
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.11.06 00:44:00 - [100] Originally by: Aalu Aullard Deimos... If it had 4 mids, people would start fitting shield tank and rails, and its not what the ship is supposed to do. How about: Ions Small nos Mwd Scram Web Nano DCU Eanm Energized reactive Magstab 800mm RT Collision Burst ECM Vespas I have no access to eft atm, so cant check the stats. But i think it was doing nicely around 2400m/s with overloaded mwd. Overloaded faction web for 15km+ web range to close in, scram to finally shutdown the targets movement. My mains skills put the dps around 450 and 30k ehp... Tank is still bit thin and needs to be careful what to engage. But im certain that this fit works better than the sluggish 1600mm RT + trimarks. If Deimos is changed, then maybe the CPU/PG needs slight adjustment. Maybe bit more basespeed. If i remember correctly, Deimos has same speed as Sacriledge. Actually, the biggest problem facing the Deimos is neuts. This means a cap booster is virtually a must to keep your face-melting dps running, meaning on a 3 medslot fitting you lose the web. Now this is partially compensated by the falloff bonus allowing you to shoot Null out to web range, preventing an opponent web-kiting you completely, but the lack of agility and the presence of plates (because active tanking is a viable option right?) makes getting into any kind of effective range difficult. For me, the solution is to power-buff its agility, to allow it to better manoeuvre in its intended range. the fourth mid to keep the web would be awesome as well though, even if it does lead to shield buffers. Then again, we're probably not intended to shield tank the Zealot or Brutix and yet plenty of us do... Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'

Izure No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2009.11.06 15:13:00 - [101] I agree with most people in this thread, that it is not just gallente but blasters,damps,rails, and well the deimos is missing a slot or it is in the wrong place, mrym needs 100 band, and eos needqs 125 band.
Mr Ignitious Helljumpers	Posted - 2009.11.06 15:59:00 - [102] Originally by: Izure I agree with most people in this thread, that it is not just gallente but blasters,damps,rails, and well the deimos is missing a slot or it is in the wrong place, mrym needs 100 band, and eos needqs 125 band. Why do you think the eos needs 125 mbit? It doesn't make sense in comparison to ANY of the other fleet commands. The only issue with the eos is that there is no reason to use info warfare links over any other. Right now the eos gives a bonus to ewar boats in a fleet, but you won't get any decent fleet that is mainly made up of ewar, therefore a tanking bonus would benefit the whole fleet more so. Aside from this though, I like the idea of ammo damage increase. I like this for a couple reasons, the first one because it reminds me of bellums thread in GD talking about how tough it is for a solo/small gang to chew through buffer tanked ships before help arrives. In addition it helps redefine the recently watered down distinction of the blaster role, lots of damage at a high cost (no range to speak of, and high cap use). Further because it's an ammo change it would carry over to rails as well really helping boost their current laughable damage. The sad part is though it's unlikely we'll see any damage increases that drastic (but it sure as hell would be fun). I wonder if a change to hybrid T2 ammo could not help accomplish this goal? Like lower the tracking penalty of null and increase it's damage and range a little bit. And for void get rid of any tracking penalty at all because a tracking penalty on such a close range weapon is silly, but also increase it's damage out put by 15-20%. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
The'Best Hellfury Incura	Posted - 2009.11.06 17:55:00 - [103] The number of people in this thread who expect to be able to solo in a fleet command ship is astounding ALEKSEYEV KARRDE FOR CSM
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.06 18:06:00 - [104] Originally by: The'Best Hellfury The number of people in this thread who expect to be able to solo in a fleet command ship is astounding Its a nice option to be able to do so, as training it on a alt and sitting it in or on the edge of a POS or in a safe position dishing out bonuses to the gang your main is on is a rather weak role imho.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.11.06 18:40:00 - [105] Originally by: Murina Originally by: The'Best Hellfury The number of people in this thread who expect to be able to solo in a fleet command ship is astounding Its a nice option to be able to do so, as training it on a alt and sitting it in or on the edge of a POS or in a safe position dishing out bonuses to the gang your main is on is a rather weak role imho. So what will you do with the Vulture? Give it siege launchers? Tachyon Damnations? 1400mm Claymores? Even more importantly, what will you then do to the field CSs? Citadel Nighthawks — now that would be something… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.06 18:52:00 - [106] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Murina Originally by: The'Best Hellfury The number of people in this thread who expect to be able to solo in a fleet command ship is astounding Its a nice option to be able to do so, as training it on a alt and sitting it in or on the edge of a POS or in a safe position dishing out bonuses to the gang your main is on is a rather weak role imho. So what will you do with the Vulture? Give it siege launchers? Tachyon Damnations? 1400mm Claymores? Even more importantly, what will you then do to the field CSs? Citadel Nighthawks ù now that would be somethingà Id try to add content to a discussion instead of just trolling it with sarcastic comments.
Mr Ignitious Helljumpers	Posted - 2009.11.06 19:04:00 - [107] merin was actually quite right... Plus, I think you just do it wrong. The fleets I fly with have the fleet cs right there with them. A damnation on the field gets on km's and is a TERRIBLE choice of primary by the enemy. Claymore in a nano hac gang keeps up just fine and again, if they shoot it (assuming you have scimis) is another lolprimary. It works a lot better than parking them on a pos. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
AnKahn Caldari The Giant Squid Corp.	Posted - 2009.11.06 19:27:00 - [108] You could boost blasters by increasing de-aggression times by 10 sec. Not a whole lot of tracking or range issues when someone is spamming the dock button. This is not a sarcastic suggestion.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.06 19:30:00 - [109] Originally by: AnKahn You could boost blasters by increasing de-aggression times by 10 sec. Not a whole lot of tracking or range issues when someone is spamming the dock button. This is not a sarcastic suggestion. Im sure their are hundreds of drake pilots sitting outside stations with a passive tank fitted who think your are a god right now.......
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.11.06 19:37:00 - [110] Originally by: Murina Id try to add content to a discussion instead of just trolling it with sarcastic comments. I did. You just didn't like the addition, which is your problem. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki

Borasatar	Posted - 2009.11.06 20:02:00 - [111] Originally by: Mr Ignitious Originally by: Diomidis Originally by: Precisionist true gallente commands ( well really the EOS ) is horrid. Wha? The Gallente Fleet Command Ship is doomed to be a low-dps /high-tanking fleet booster? "Not packing punch as field command ships but providing bonuses to a well rounded fleet?" That's BS! Unacceptable! The Eos IS horrid, but not because it sucks at killing things but because its LINKS suck COMPLETE butt. You won't find a scenario where boosting non-tackle ewar is more useful than boosting tank or mobility. We used an Eos boosting a couple weeks ago and were glad we had it (it helped out a bit). It just wasn't against other ships ;)
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.06 20:41:00 - [112] Edited by: Murina on 06/11/2009 20:45:17 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Murina Id try to add content to a discussion instead of just trolling it with sarcastic comments. I did. You just didn't like the addition, which is your problem. Suggesting BS sized weapons on command ships with a sarcastic comment attached is nothing but troll, go away. Anyway... Maybe upgrading the fleet command ships so they also get simular logistic bonuses simular to the logistic ships but perhaps not so strong would make them a better gang pvp support ship.
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:05:00 - [113] Edited by: Rastigan on 06/11/2009 23:05:25 Originally by: The'Best Hellfury The number of people in this thread who expect to be able to solo in a fleet command ship is astounding Its a T2 Battlecruiser, it should be usefull in some reasonable way... And no one thinks that it should be a solopwnmobile, even pre-nerf the solo Eos was still subpar to the Dominix.. The baddest Field Command ship will get beaten much more often than not by a tier 1 Battleship, and often a tier 3 BC(except the Myrmidon)...
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:49:00 - [114] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 06/11/2009 23:49:34 Originally by: The Djego If you fix web range pvp with blaster ships, there is not much left to fix actually. You could still go for a damage boost, but this is less important in my opinion than the ability to bring the DPS you got on the target and also it was like this before QR already. What changes is that the blaster ship can claim back his role, and since amarr suck in this role(beside Harbinger and the drone ships) it is not a huge issue that blasters are a bit worse off than lasers(like it was before QR for solo/small gang). To the more speed argument, I think this isn't really needed, since kitting is a intended drawback(also a lot more of a problem in the nano age). If you have the superior power in web range, you need to work to get there. It also gives lots of ships reasons to engage you and every good fight does have some sort of kitting in the beginning what forces the blaster pilot to put some effort in it to reach web range. The problem is that there is a lot of ships were even up close you don't really have that much of a edge. In the sub-BS world, at least. I don't remember the last time I actually bothered to reload to Barrage and actually kite a blasterboat, instead of just loading Hail M and showing him who's king within HIS optimal range (or alternatively, RF EMP for the paperthin shieldtanks). The DPS edge just isn't noticeable enough, and the fitting cost of neutrons is simply far too large. Everything else, and you cease to have any sort of DPS advantage over anything. That said, I don't solo in BS where you do have actual non-horrible ships. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:51:00 - [115] Originally by: Murina Suggesting BS sized weapons on command ships with a sarcastic comment attached is nothing but troll, go away. People are suggesting that the Eos should be able to field BS-sized weapons — I'm drawing that suggestion to its conclusion. The fact that you see that as a troll provides adequate explanation for why giving the Eos more drones is a bad idea. Originally by: Rastigan Its a T2 Battlecruiser, it should be usefull in some reasonable way... It is: it can field three command modules. If there is a problem with the Fleet Command ships, it's more with those modules (and in some cases the ship's tank) than with the ship's firepower, because firepower lies so far beyond its role that it's silly. Quote: The baddest Field Command ship will get beaten much more often than not by a tier 1 Battleship, and often a tier 3 BC(except the Myrmidon)... …and Fleet Command ships should be even less of a powerhouse than those, so again: there's really no rationale behind giving the Eos more drone capability than the ship(s) that are above them in terms of being able to project force. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
The'Best Hellfury Incura	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:51:00 - [116] Originally by: Murina Suggesting BS sized weapons on command ships with a sarcastic comment attached is nothing but troll, go away. So what would you call 5x heavy drones? ALEKSEYEV KARRDE FOR CSM
Jack Icegaard The Omega Project	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:24:00 - [117] From where comes the notion that heavy drones are BS sized weapons? Sure, i can see the supposed pattern: light drones are frigate sized, medium are cruiser sized etc., but i don't think that this categorization serve any real purpose. To me, there is nothing battleship-sized about sentry's or heavy drones.
Neuronai	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:29:00 - [118] Originally by: demonfurbie its not gal ships over all they are fine its blasters/rails/damps that have the issues blasters do not have a huge range like lasers or long fall off like projectiles but they do have the drawbacks of both of those wep systems (cap use and reload/ammo use) granted blasters do have higher damage but with the webs being less effective at slowing ships down and scrams turning off mwds a blaster ship has issues getting into range and holding a target to were it can hit it for any dmg rails have similar issues on gal ships but on cal ships they are nice due to the range bonuses that cal get instead of dmg bonuses and the fact that cal use mid slots to tank and there rail ships get a res bonus so even less needed there for they can use more low slots for dmg mods and at least 1 more mid for tracking there fore they can do the same dmg as gal ships at a much further range (rohk v hype/mega sniper fit) damps really got hit by scripting nerf but over all its damp ships that need a looking at. drone ships are over all fine they just need a bit of tweaking (1 less high slot on the myrm 25m3 more bandwidth) the log ship/eos needs more work over all just dont know how I think the blaster problem is less to do with not being able to get in range (I don't usually have trouble applying my blaster damage) but rather that the DPS isn't worth the distance you have to close...I mean you don't get much more DPS out of blasters than you do pulse lasers, yet pulse lasers get ludicrous range with scorch. In fleet battles blasters are pretty much pointless.
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:37:00 - [119] Originally by: The'Best Hellfury So what would you call 5x heavy drones? just +100 more dps to an Eos over its 75m3 drone setup... or for most Eos pilots the ability to field 5 heavy utility drones. Heavy Drones arent exactly a battleship exclusive, all you need is 25m3 bandwidth.
The'Best Hellfury Incura	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:32:00 - [120] Edited by: The''Best Hellfury on 07/11/2009 04:32:46 Originally by: Rastigan Originally by: The'Best Hellfury So what would you call 5x heavy drones? just +100 more dps to an Eos over its 75m3 drone setup... or for most Eos pilots the ability to field 5 heavy utility drones. Heavy Drones arent exactly a battleship exclusive, all you need is 25m3 bandwidth. 100+ DPS to a ship that already does 400+ with no damage mods No other Fleet Command ship comes close to those numbers. Edit: To clarify, I agree that some Gallente Ships need reworking and blasters as a whole are FUBAR in their current state, but the Eos is a terrible example. ALEKSEYEV KARRDE FOR CSM

Mr Ignitious Helljumpers	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:07:00 - [121] Not many people have responded to the post proposing up to a 21% damage advantage with antimatter over MF. I think that something like that would be a great start really. Ever since the resist nerf it has made em/therm damage combo a VERY ideal selection for pvp which in turn further mitigates the "dps advantage" of blasters. And again because it is an ammo change it would also help make rails seem like a reasonable weapon platform as well. Hell, even the caldari turret platforms could rejoice. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:56:00 - [122] Originally by: Precisionist IMO the needed gallente need a boost, and perhaps all of blasters need a boost in range. Eos- the limited drone capacity makes this useless. Deimos- 1 high slot needs to be a med or low slot, for either extra speed or extra cap capabilities. Or it needs more velocity or a speed bonus instead of 1 of the HAC bonus. Phobos- is in need of at least a 25 drone capacity and 25 drone band. Sin- well like all black ops they kinda suck. Myrm- more drone bandwidth. Ishtar- it is slow and fragile- IMO change velocity from 181 to 190. Pretty much everyone will choose lasers or AC's on gallente ships because they are usually useless in most pvp fights. And rails do sht damage. I think a boost in blasters will fix a lot of gallente ship problems. It's overrated, but ... i have 17 isk, can i help ? --- I smack just for myself. Allow faction cap boosters to be traded via normal market !
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.07 09:32:00 - [123] Edited by: Murina on 07/11/2009 09:33:29 Originally by: The'Best Hellfury Originally by: Murina Suggesting BS sized weapons on command ships with a sarcastic comment attached is nothing but troll, go away. So what would you call 5x heavy drones? On a gallente BC ect id not be too shocked at it but on the others it would seem odd, and tbh i do not class heavy drones the same way as i do as 1400 arties or 425mm rails.....25mbit band width is not the same as a large turret.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.11.07 09:33:00 - [124] Originally by: Jack Icegaard From where comes the notion that heavy drones are BS sized weapons? […] To me, there is nothing battleship-sized about sentry's [sic] or heavy drones. That's because you haven't look at them. Things like tracking, speed, size etc. make it quite obvious… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Helkar Antonov Caldari Wings of Omen Independence	Posted - 2009.11.07 09:46:00 - [125] Edited by: Helkar Antonov on 07/11/2009 09:49:34 Edited by: Helkar Antonov on 07/11/2009 09:47:33 Talking about deimos, it got one more issue apart from lacking one mid slot. I tried to fly it with capbooster, and while losing web was kinda sucky, the cap was really really great with its mwd-penalty bonus (most think it's useless, i think it's just great). But! Why? Whyyyyyyy does deimos have so little cargohold??? Much less then an ishtar for example, which is apperently a droneboat and as such doesn't need to carry a lot of ammo. 315m3 is just not enought for battaries, ammo and other cool stuff like exotic dancers, which you just need to have in a deimos. So please, CCP, pimp my deimos with a big ****** cargobay! :D
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.07 09:47:00 - [126] Edited by: Murina on 07/11/2009 09:49:30 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Jack Icegaard From where comes the notion that heavy drones are BS sized weapons? [à] To me, there is nothing battleship-sized about sentry's [sic] or heavy drones. That's because you haven't look at them. Things like tracking, speed, size etc. make it quite obviousà Actually the drone nerf was just another example of how CCP gimped gallente seeing as gallente are the main drone specialists. I mean wft ccp, heavy drones are smaller than AF's and most other frigs but cannot hit small targets?.....duh?.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.07 10:15:00 - [127] Edited by: The Djego on 07/11/2009 10:18:58 Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 06/11/2009 23:49:34 Originally by: The Djego If you fix web range pvp with blaster ships, there is not much left to fix actually. You could still go for a damage boost, but this is less important in my opinion than the ability to bring the DPS you got on the target and also it was like this before QR already. What changes is that the blaster ship can claim back his role, and since amarr suck in this role(beside Harbinger and the drone ships) it is not a huge issue that blasters are a bit worse off than lasers(like it was before QR for solo/small gang). To the more speed argument, I think this isn't really needed, since kitting is a intended drawback(also a lot more of a problem in the nano age). If you have the superior power in web range, you need to work to get there. It also gives lots of ships reasons to engage you and every good fight does have some sort of kitting in the beginning what forces the blaster pilot to put some effort in it to reach web range. The problem is that there is a lot of ships were even up close you don't really have that much of a edge. In the sub-BS world, at least. I don't remember the last time I actually bothered to reload to Barrage and actually kite a blasterboat, instead of just loading Hail M and showing him who's king within HIS optimal range (or alternatively, RF EMP for the paperthin shieldtanks). The DPS edge just isn't noticeable enough, and the fitting cost of neutrons is simply far too large. Everything else, and you cease to have any sort of DPS advantage over anything. That said, I don't solo in BS where you do have actual non-horrible ships. Well it was like this before QR already and be sure I know 2006 is a long gone and times have changed. The ability to dedicate range(in web range), apply DPS properly, prevent targets form slipping out of your range to fast and be a bit more flexible against undersized targets(that you can¦t fight at range with sub bs weapons) is actually a lot more important to me. This are the keys to make it a ok solo ship again(not just bs), you won¦t archive this with a bit more tracking or DPS(at least in the setting we have today). I'm not against a bit more DPS, but if I have to chose I prefer something that brings it back a bit closer to what it was, instead of simply being a close range ship with a bit more DPS what isn't all this useful this days for solo. I think shortly before QR I reached the end of my options(skills, fittings, implants) to make it work in a environment that was as far as you can go from close range combat(nano), and my urge was a extreme big one as I noticed CCP throwing the game back to close range and it gets even worse since close range didn't worked for you so well any more. I simply want to go one step back instead of changing it to something different. A 37.5% web role bonus on cruiser\bc\bs sized blaster ships(60 -> 75% web) could do this, and would be a lot better baseline to look for changes from there, at least in my opinion, what is based on solo gank style blaster combat. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 12:45:00 - [128] Determined to find out why everyone thinks the Eos is an awesome powerhouse even though no one buys one and the only ones in space are used just for comedy fits, I do some solopwnmobile EFT crunching: these figures are without gangbonuses, and they are fit to use the ships natural bonuses. Vulture: MWD and point, with blasters and hams: 570 dps and 120k EHP w/233 shield regen Claymore: MWD and point, with AC and Hams: 660 dps , 43k EHP w/628 active regen and 1311 m/s speed Damnation: Flying brick edition MWD and point and web, with pulses and hams: 450 dps, 160k EHP Eos: MWD , point , and web: 655 dps and 43k ehp and 440 dps repping , if you fit a pg implant it can have a medium nos. So not only is it the least usefull ship in a fleet, it is certainly also the worst solo machine. But its all good since everyone flys Eos's and they are victorious in fights everywhere
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.07 13:09:00 - [129] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 07/11/2009 13:10:04 Originally by: Rastigan Determined to find out why everyone thinks the Eos is an awesome powerhouse even though no one buys one and the only ones in space are used just for comedy fits, I do some solopwnmobile EFT crunching: these figures are without gangbonuses, and they are fit to use the ships natural bonuses. Vulture: MWD and point, with blasters and hams: 570 dps and 120k EHP w/233 shield regen Claymore: MWD and point, with AC and Hams: 660 dps , 43k EHP w/628 active regen and 1311 m/s speed Damnation: Flying brick edition MWD and point and web, with pulses and hams: 450 dps, 160k EHP Eos: MWD , point , and web: 655 dps and 43k ehp and 440 dps repping , if you fit a pg implant it can have a medium nos. So not only is it the least usefull ship in a fleet, it is certainly also the worst solo machine. But its all good since everyone flys Eos's and they are victorious in fights everywhere Um, you just described the perfect way to waste 4 ships. All those fits are (for solo PVP) trash. The useful fleet commands are useful because of good warfare links together with ability to stay in the field providing those (Damnation, Claymore in shield gang). All those "solopwnmobile" fits are going to die vs two T1 BCs, not to mention lack the DPS to break a, eg. active tank fit anything unlike most T1 BCs. All they get is extra tank/buffer. Boosting the EOS in the fleet CS role is good and needed. Which means its warfare links are the problem, and its tank is the problem. Active repping bonuses need to go for ships designed as fleet ships, to be replaced by something useful. Like resists. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.07 13:17:00 - [130] As i already mentioned, give the fleet command ships RR bonuses simular to logistics ships, its about time we had a larger version anyway and the FCS would be well suited to it wiothin their supposed "roles" i think.

Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 13:28:00 - [131] Originally by: Cpt Branko Um, you just described the perfect way to waste 4 ships. No kidding, it was just to emphasize to everyone who thinks the Eos is fine, that its bad at everything (you are better off fitting the info warfare links on a ship that lasts longer) , inlcuding what people think it could be, a dangerous solo ship. Quote: Boosting the EOS in the fleet CS role is good and needed. Which means its warfare links are the problem, and its tank is the problem. Active repping bonuses need to go for ships designed as fleet ships, to be replaced by something useful. Like resists. Fleet command ships need a total overhaul like what they did to the logistic line of ships.
Seralder	Posted - 2009.11.07 18:32:00 - [132] Bad Gallenteships? How you can forget the Catalyst? :D
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 19:13:00 - [133] Well, guess what "captain whiners"... Yes, blasters have issues, BUT also have strengths, and DRONES are part of their strengths...yes, Gallente boats have massive drone bays, most of which range from big to ridiculous (Thorax, Brutix, Vexor before bandwidth nerf, myrm off-course) before the introduction of larger-than-usual drone bays in ships like the Harbinger for example - those things actually can add substantially to either DPS or eWar output...EVEN WHEN NOT BONUSED! That brings us to the Eos... It's a fleet command ship. It has bonuses for ewar warfare links... an ewar heavy gang still is pretty much untouchable - it's not that falcons are weak, they are just not praised in the forums and ppl don't fly them dual box cause they have "only 100km range"... Add some to the above with what? The Eos - it doesn't need tank, cause when flown right (actually when your wing-men use u right) it won't be shot at for long... The Damnation and the Vulture are the complete opposite....those are gangs with bonuses to RR and tanking in general - those are designed to be shot at and survive long enough for your wing-men to switch RR to you - the Eos has to survive long enough for the enemies to be jammed/damped... What? Different logic? Q: But I want to be able to do what a Damnation does in my Eos ! Blah-blah -A : Train for a Damnation Q: But I want Damnation tank with Absolution Range and Blaster tracking and Dmg, and bonused 125 band...for my Eos...and why not all my Gallente ships... - A: Well, don't we all... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.11.07 19:22:00 - [134] Edited by: lecrotta on 07/11/2009 19:25:08 Originally by: Diomidis Well, guess what "captain whiners"... Yes, blasters have issues, BUT also have strengths, and DRONES are part of their strengths...yes, Gallente boats have massive drone bays, most of which range from big to ridiculous (Thorax, Brutix, Vexor before bandwidth nerf, myrm off-course) before the introduction of larger-than-usual drone bays in ships like the Harbinger for example - those things actually can add substantially to either DPS or eWar output...EVEN WHEN NOT BONUSED! Drones were quite a asset for gallente until they decided to nerf them by class size........but thanks for the input "captain clueless"... Oh and blasters do not have strengths, they have a small DPS advantage at point blank range that they can rarely apply due to the tracking/speed issues and even if they could it is massivly overshadowed by the huge range other systems have.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 19:55:00 - [135] Originally by: lecrotta Drones were quite a asset for gallente until they decided to nerf them by class size........but thanks for the input "captain clueless"... Oh and blasters do not have strengths, they have a small DPS advantage at point blank range that they can rarely apply due to the tracking/speed issues and even if they could it is massivly overshadowed by the huge range other systems have. Sure... The lack of clues lies where? That gallente are not solo-pwn mobiles? That fleet CSs do not hold the field by themselves? I still think those still are as good as it gets. Better than most. Cannot find many races that can "do" BS ships with MWD mods, local tank, decent buffer, full tacle and great DPS vs. all sizes of opponents. U don't like this logic? The game style of your alliance's OPs don't like it? Well - to bad. Fleet Megas are still decent imho. Not the best...but try not having the best for a chance, it's not that bad. The only out-classed ship in the Gallente Arsenal is the Deimos imho, which has to be flown in very specific ways to do better than average- well - so do all IMHO...still you can do better with it solo compared to a Zealot for example that can fit a single disruptor, you are less cap dependent then the zealot is etc. Ppl tend to think ships in totally different contexts, and still believe they can reach valid comparisons. Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.11.07 20:25:00 - [136] Edited by: lecrotta on 07/11/2009 20:34:24 Originally by: Diomidis Sure... The lack of clues lies where? That gallente are not solo-pwn mobiles? Most of the races have a few solo capable ships in their hangars......and solo pvp now is more about catching a unaware pilot that does not logoff or warp to a POS or without a dozen buddies nearby more than anything else. Originally by: Diomidis That fleet CSs do not hold the field by themselves? Nope they do not. Originally by: Diomidis I still think those still are as good as it gets. Better than most. I dont the bonues effect aint so good, the tank is poor and the dps aint anything special...all in all a underwhelming ship for the cost to train fit and buy.... Originally by: Diomidis Cannot find many races that can "do" BS ships with MWD mods, local tank, decent buffer, full tacle and great DPS vs. all sizes of opponents. You cannot find any really unless its maybe on paper or on sissi in a 1 v 1 area, solo BS pvp pretty much died a year or two ago pal...live in the now. Originally by: Diomidis Fleet Megas are still decent imho. Not the best...but try not having the best for a change, it's not that bad. If by fleet megas you mean sniper megas id say they are ok but sniper megas have never been the best. Originally by: Diomidis The only out-classed ship in the Gallente Arsenal is the Deimos imho, which has to be flown in very specific ways to do better than average- well - so do all IMHO... What ever it is your smoking stop it cos its not good for you.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 21:12:00 - [137] Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 07/11/2009 20:34:24 Most of the races have a few solo capable ships in their hangars......and solo pvp now is more about catching a unaware pilot that does not logoff or warp to a POS or without a dozen buddies nearby more than anything else. So clueless stranglers are rare - not solo capable ships, right? And that has nothing to do with Gallente in particular - right? And we are not talcking of "a few solo capable ships"...most Gallente ships are solo PvP capable with decent for their class, and multitask capabilities in gangs. Yes, specialized ships could have a more detrimental effect in the field, simply cause are specialized. You cannot tackle or MWD around AND tank as good as you do in a gallente BS in either an Abby or a Scorp, can u? Yes, as an armored brick with lasors the Abby is great, but ppl know it and it has ways to be countered - just like Blaster-Megas are so easy to "out-range",(as most ppl claim) the Abby has ways to be countered, and ways it cannot perform as a Mega... It's just that Blaster Whine is FOTM now, and Laser Whine is not - I do remember ppl flying AC abbys as the only way to fight cap usage etc... The only thing that doesn't live "today" is the FOTM trend...you can argue about me smoking stuff and whatever, but if smoking works, plz adapt and/or give me your stuff... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
ropnes	Posted - 2009.11.07 21:17:00 - [138] If you think AC Abbys were bad, and the laser whine got us where we are then why wouldn't we whine about blaster?
Mr Ignitious Helljumpers	Posted - 2009.11.07 21:46:00 - [139] Diomidos... Show me where the mega beats out the abaddon again? Because I can't think of a single scenario. The abby has WAY more hp, WAY more range, and just as much damage, if not more because of ideal damage types. Further, you can blow up drones VERY easily from non specialized drone ships, so saying its a HUGE advantage is stupid. The 5% dps advantage from blasters is an utter joke considering lasers have TWICE the optimal. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 21:47:00 - [140] Originally by: ropnes If you think AC Abbys were bad, and the laser whine got us where we are then why wouldn't we whine about blaster? I reverse the question: If ACs abbys were good enough, then why not current blaster boat's are good enough? Which was the huge laser boost that made lasers so overpowered? The 10% EM res drop? No...it's just that when blobbing, when other ppl tackle for you, when other ppl RR you and when you have numbers in general, Zealots and Geddons and Abbys work better. AC abbys where used for station hugging dual LAR setups with no MWD, just like ppl use beast tanked Sleipnirs with no MWD parked right on the undocking point....that works, but is it good enough? Apparently yes...IF you think the context the ship operates within. So yes, if you are blobbing, the Amarr BSs are better than the Gallente BSs in most cases, but the context is blobbing. You like to think out of context, 1vs1 - Mega Pulse vs Ion or Neutron Blaster etc, but can a MP fitted geddon or abby hold itself 1vs1 better than a Mega or Domi? Can they move in range to tackle/web and maintain that range? Cause if the Mega has problem to move in optimal, then the Geddon or Abby cannot move in range to tackle or keep tackle, unless the opponent chooses to do stay and fight... It's the same as Zealot vs. Vaga...ppl take tackle for granded, and it's a common sight large BS blobs with a lot of ranged lazors and RR relying on a single Dictor or two for tackle...guess what - it doesn't work to actually kill as many as 30-50ish RR gangs should if they had decent tackle. The FOTM is bringing Zealots with SBs and no tackle, just as nanoed SB atry-Canes and muninns with no tackle...that's why the "proposed" setup by eft wizzards for the Deimos is 2x LSE + MWD setups with neutrons...the game switches trends because of us...not just CCP nerfs... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!

lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.11.07 21:49:00 - [141] Edited by: lecrotta on 07/11/2009 21:53:13 Originally by: Diomidis So clueless stranglers are rare - not solo capable ships, right? And that has nothing to do with Gallente in particular - right? WUT?...is that even english?. Originally by: Diomidis And we are not talking of "a few solo capable ships"...most Gallente ships are solo PvP capable with decent for their class, and multitask capabilities in gangs. Any ship with enough mids or a reasonable slot layout can be fitted for solo or gang work, this about more than just paper tiger or sissi warrior crap. Originally by: Diomidis You cannot tackle or MWD around AND tank as good as you do in a gallente BS in either an Abby or a Scorp, can u? You do not need to MWD around cos they either have a bloody great big available optimal with awsome damage AND a gigantic tank (in the case of the abaddon) or are a ewar ship with considerably better range with the ewar and its missiles than a blaster ship gets with its blasters... Originally by: Diomidis Yes, as an armored brick with lasors the Abby is great, but ppl know it and it has ways to be countered - just like Blaster-Megas are so easy to "out-range",(as most ppl claim) the Abby has ways to be countered... Interesting that you give a example of the simple and "so easy" counter to a mega, but fail miserably to give one for the abby...lol Go away your a biased joke.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 21:55:00 - [142] Originally by: Mr Ignitious Diomidos... Show me where the mega beats out the abaddon again? Because I can't think of a single scenario. The abby has WAY more hp, WAY more range, and just as much damage, if not more because of ideal damage types. Further, you can blow up drones VERY easily from non specialized drone ships, so saying its a HUGE advantage is stupid. The 5% dps advantage from blasters is an utter joke considering lasers have TWICE the optimal. A single scenario is that the Mega can MWD around scram/web and kill more stuff than the Abaddon, and actually tracking really is better when you do so against small stuff...optimal+falloff for the Mega is enough for that scenario. Can a plated Deimos beat a Plated Zealot if it manages to tackle it? Do you fit your Zealots with scrams? If you do can you beat a Deimos in scram range? Is the Deimos better than the Zealot according to that logic? Yes, the Abby can beat a Mega IF IT CAN TACKLE IT AND HOLD IT...so? The Mega chooses if it want's to fight the first place., or warps out well before in real danger in a 1vs1. I still think that there are way more ways to counter/kill/evade amarr BSs 1vs.1 than Megas and Domis - by far. Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.07 22:05:00 - [143] Edited by: Murina on 07/11/2009 22:11:47 Originally by: Diomidis Which was the huge laser boost that made lasers so overpowered? The 10% EM res drop? It was not just diect buffs to amaar but also other game changes that gimped the other races or ships in general that suited amaar that made them so uber compared to others. Direct buffs to amarr. 1. Tracking buff, just before the nano nerf. A. Allowing pulse to hit cruiser sized NANO ships at range BEFORE they were speed nerfed. B. Reducing the number of med sized cruiser hull gang vs gang pvp. 2. EM resistance changes. A. Increased laser DPS. Indirect buffs to amarr. 1. Nano nerf: A. Made range the new "tertiary tank". B. Increased the use of BS gang fighting especially RR. 2. Web nerf: A. Making solo BS pvp virtually non-existant due to small ships easily kiteing BS turrets. B. Also making med-large gang BS pvp the only viable option. 3. Population density: A. More ppl same space = a increase in gang styles of pvp. B. A reduction in available solo targets for all sizes of solo ships. 4. Reduced mwd cap penalty/speed reduction. A. Givinging laser ships more overall cap to fire guns with. B. Also reducing the speed MWD gave makes blaster ships take longer to get into optimal. More recent changes that buffed amaar. 1. ECM range reduction: A. ECM optimal is now within BS pulse range. B. Also increasing the effectivness of RR BS gangs. 2. Agility reduction: A. All classes of ships just took a agility reduction, meaning those that need to manouver into optimal are slower to do so and use more CAP mwding. B. Amarr having a MASSIVE optimal need to manouver the least so spend more time outside of others optimal. C. Other ships spend more time and cap manouvering inside amaars optimal. Originally by: Diomidis You like to think out of context, 1vs1 - Mega Pulse vs Ion or Neutron Blaster etc, but can a MP fitted geddon or abby hold itself 1vs1 better than a Mega or Domi? 1 v 1 BS pvp died a long time ago on TQ and now only really exists on the sissi server in controlled areas....your out of date pal
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 22:12:00 - [144] Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 07/11/2009 21:53:13 Any ship with enough mids or a reasonable slot layout can be fitted for solo or gang work, this about more than just paper tiger or sissi warrior crap. Can u be beaten by many ships in 1 vs. 1 in a Gallente Boat vs. another race's ship that doesn't fall in the exception "best in it's class for the job" ? For example, do you get beaten in 1 vs 1 in your Vexor or Thorax by other Cruisers? Do you know many HACs that choose to engage your Ishtar solo? Do you die a lot in your Megas or Domis vs. solo abaddons? (here I lol)... Yes, you might not be able to solo a Drake in a Gallente BC...then again, which BC has good chances doing that? Originally by: lecrotta You do not need to MWD around cos they either have a bloody great big available optimal with awsome damage AND a gigantic tank (in the case of the abaddon) or are a ewar ship with considerably better range with the ewar and its missiles than a blaster ship gets with its blasters... Mr Clue-full, you take tackle for granded, and you forget that without tackle there is no fight. Only losers or RP players that actually enjoy playing stand to fight un-winable battles. Yes, I know that if you have others pointing and webbing for you, than you perform better in a lazor / missile boat that you would in a blaster boat. I don't see were my conclusions are paper based and were yours are written by blood on the KBs... Originally by: Diomidis Interesting that you give a example of the simple and "so easy" counter to a mega, but fail miserably to give one for the abby...lol Go away your a biased joke. It was an ironic quote you clue-full friend. If it's easy to out-range and out-track a Mega, it's easier to out-track, neut empty or gtf-out of an Abbys' claws. I know that fleeing is not something Gallente are used in doing, but...guess what, there are things that are better than Gallente ships - you cannot be uber forever, and running away has always been a good idea if you cannot win a fight - it's a small win by itself, a win most Amarr ships cannot afford once caught by a Gallente ship they cannot beat... PS. LoLis - english speaking guy - try speaking my mother language before lauphing at me...you suck at arguing. Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.11.07 22:28:00 - [145] Edited by: lecrotta on 07/11/2009 22:34:27 Originally by: Diomidis Do you know many HACs that choose to engage your Ishtar solo? I dont know anybody who really goes around looking for 1 v 1 hac vs hac fights tbh so your point is worthless, mostly when ppl go solo pvping they are looking to gank ratters and are setup to do so. They MAY get into a hasc vs hac fight rarely but in those very rare cases its cos both players think they can win cos in ALL other casses one qwill run long before the fight even starts. Originally by: Diomidis Do you die a lot in your Megas or Domis vs solo abaddons? (here I lol)... NEVER...But thats cos there really are no 1 v 1 BS fights anywhere on the main server....live in the bnow fool. lol. Yes, you might not be able to solo a Drake in a Gallente BC...then again, which BC has good chances doing that? Originally by: Diomidis Mr Clue-full, you take tackle for granded, and you forget that without tackle there is no fight. Only losers or RP players that actually enjoy playing stand to fight un-winable battles. Yes, I know that if you have others pointing and webbing for you, than you perform better in a lazor / missile boat that you would in a blaster boat. Looks at the slot layout for the mega...looks at the slot layout for the abaddon...looks at the huge fiotting constraints the mega has...looks at the amount of pg/cpu the abby has...lols at mr clueless.. Originally by: Diomidis I don't see were my conclusions are paper based and were yours are written by blood on the KBs... ...looks on Diomidis ships used on BC for battleships used....sees LOTS of amarr BS used.....checks again for gallente BS...gets blood hounds and Ouija board out...still no sign of any gallente BS usage... Originally by: Diomidis If it's easy to out-range and out-track a Mega, it's easier to out-track, neut empty or gtf-out of an Abbys' claws. The abby has great dps out to overheated point range the megas dps is lower before you are out of normal web range, the mega needs to mwd to do good dps so is more vulnerable to cap warfare....oh and as was mentioned earlier they have the same slot layout so the same tackle options. Next please....
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 22:34:00 - [146] Originally by: Murina 1. Tracking buff, just before the nano nerf. A. Allowing pulse to hit cruiser sized NANO ships at range BEFORE they were speed nerfed. B. Reducing the number of med sized cruiser hull gang vs gang pvp. The Mega could track my nano-Sac pretty good at ranges close enough for HAMs to do dmg - no Amarr BS could...paper facts. The only ultra-tracking Amarr BS is the Apoc when fitted with locus rigs and MP II + scorch -> Direct nerf to locus was caused by that IMHO. Originally by: Murina 2. EM resistance changes. A. Increased laser DPS. Yes, I said that. Originally by: Murina Indirect buffs to amarr. 1. Nano nerf: A. Made range the new "tertiary tank". B. Increased the use of BS gang fighting especially RR. 1. Nano nerf was more of a buff to a close ranged ship that now has an actual chance of getting in range and hold the opponent down than it was for Laser boats the first place. A. That "was there" all the time - at least that's what the Laser boosting whiners were hearing all the time B. That's not a CCP issue. We re-invented the wheel by actually hitting the "Show info" button on Logis and/or apprieciating their EFT stats...big deal...that was always there, just not utilized enough. Originally by: Murina 2. Web nerf: A. Making solo BS pvp virtually non-existant due to small ships easily kiteing BS turrets. B. Also making med-large gang BS pvp the only viable option. A. I thing precious tackling gear does that, and most small ships still should do it, otherewise there would be no role for them. B. The blobbing issue is irrelevant to blasters, and I don't think that once you can out-blob and catch the enemy gang blaster range is the limitation... Originally by: Murina 3. Population density: A. More ppl same space = a increase in gang styles of pvp. B. A reduction in available solo targets for all sizes of solo ships. A. IMHO is the exact opposite. We have less playing styles in PvP nowadays, and yes, with decent numbers you can abuse certain strengths and neglect certain weaknesses. That is off course not favourable for balanced ships like Gallente, but works best for one-trick-ponies like the Amarr BSs for example. B. Well...blaster irellevant, and indirect-boost for amarr irrelevant Originally by: Murina 4. Reduced mwd cap penalty/speed reduction. A. Givinging laser ships more overall cap to fire guns with. B. Also reducing the speed MWD gave makes blaster ships take longer to get into optimal. 4. Yes, but that's more direct/relevant boost to ships that actually MWD into range as-well... A. So that they can actually fit lasers instead of Arties or ACs...that was a deserved change IMHO B. as I quoted above, it also helps blaster ships to keep targets in place once they catch em. Originally by: Murina More recent changes that buffed amaar. 1. ECM range reduction: A. ECM optimal is now within BS pulse range. B. Also increasing the effectivness of RR BS gangs. A. Yes for all. But Blaster range / dps etc irrelevant. pre-nerfed ECM was in range for cruise Ravens and Cerbs all the time...I don't remember anyone whining about that - or claiming that the cruise raven was that good... B. Well, ECM is still the RR's nemesis. You just cannot be untouchable yourself at 200km for applying it, and that's not close to a Gallente nerf by any way. Originally by: Murina 2. Agility reduction: Yes, but once again it also helps Blaster boats maintain the edge (range) if the fight starts in range those favour. You cannot always dictate the outcome, and you cannot prejudge if this change is good or bad for you. Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 22:56:00 - [147] Edited by: Diomidis on 07/11/2009 23:00:12 Edited by: Diomidis on 07/11/2009 22:58:31 Originally by: lecrotta I dont know anybody who really goes around looking for 1 v 1 hac vs hac fights tbh so your point is worthless, mostly when ppl go solo pvping they are looking to gank ratters and are setup to do so. They MAY get into a hasc vs hac fight rarely but in those very rare cases its cos both players think they can win cos in ALL other casses one qwill run long before the fight even starts. Well, I do know of regions and ppl that roam around in HACs solo, and yes, they do take on other HACs...that fact that you cannot guarantee a solo fight, doesn't mean that solo fights do not exist. Yes, those are rare, but when so many ppl fly around the same regions, it's as good as it gets. And again I cannot see why being able to run away is a bad thing...ppl that like solo, like that feature - at least I do, as I prefer surving myself than fighting against all odds. Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Diomidis Do you die a lot in your Megas or Domis vs solo abaddons? (here I lol)... NEVER...But thats cos there really are no 1 v 1 BS fights anywhere on the main server....live in the bnow fool. lol. 1st you are focusing on my 1vs1 BS "facts" that were merely focused on other ppl comparing stuff in 1vs1 occations. You then are complaining above that ppl run away from fights they cannot win...what can be done? 1) accept that you cannot be the "best" in all occations 2) Whine as long as it takes to become the best in all occasions -> something Gallente had or were rumored to have 3) adapt and prey for a mix of the above (what usually happens). Originally by: Diomidis Looks at the slot layout for the mega...looks at the slot layout for the abaddon...looks at the huge fiotting constraints the mega has...looks at the amount of pg/cpu the abby has...lols at mr clueless.. Mr Clue-full, train for the abby then...it's a win-win situation. Originally by: lecrotta ...looks on Diomidis ships used on BC for battleships used....sees LOTS of amarr BS used.....checks again for gallente BS...gets blood hounds and Ouija board out...still no sign of any gallente BS usage... Diomidis can fly Amarr BSs for 3 years now. Did I train for another race BSs? No, I am now training for Gallente tbh...true...is cause of FOTM? Three years ago, by no means were Amarr BSs uber - but I started Amarr and remained Amarr. I didn't mind not being the best, and I didn't whine to be one. I had a corp and alliance backing my less-than-best ships. In fact then Megas were FOTM...and their playstyle too... I know Amarr BSs, and yes, I go after them in my ceptors and Vagas way more confident than I would against a Domi...despite the "nano-nerf" and their uber range/tracking combo. I just tend to fear scram/web and multiple neuts more, and Amarr can't do that in most cases... Tough luck...should you base your whine on my case then? Originally by: lecrotta The abby has great dps out to overheated point range the megas dps is lower before you are out of normal web range, the mega needs to mwd to do good dps so is more vulnerable to cap warfare....oh and as was mentioned earlier they have the same slot layout so the same tackle options. Next please.... So you either train for Abby, or fly away... I loled at the better cap stability / Independence of the Abbys over the Mega... I lolled at it's uber tackling ability claims. I know it has more buffer tank if fitted for it...so? Yes it has more DPS if you stand to fight...so? - flee you have buffer to survive enough time and cap to outlast his MWD vs. yours. Solution? Don't fly solo in BSs, or choose the fights you can win. If you cannot do it in your ships, then train for another race. Since you sneak in BC for me, see how many ships I fly...most of those I use the most are widely different. Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.07 23:02:00 - [148] Originally by: Diomidis 1. Nano nerf was more of a buff to a close ranged ship that now has an actual chance of getting in range and hold the opponent down than it was for Laser boats the first place. A. That "was there" all the time - at least that's what the Laser boosting whiners were hearing all the time B. That's not a CCP issue. We re-invented the wheel by actually hitting the "Show info" button on Logis and/or apprieciating their EFT stats...big deal...that was always there, just not utilized enough. 1. Ships being slower mean ships with good range are outside of ships with lower range longer, a ship with a 45km optimal will have a target in its optimal for a much longer time than one with a 4.5km optimal...thats basic math dude.. a. Range was their but at 10,000ms it was not a issue. b. It was not utilised as much cos nano was better, nano was removed so ppl moved to gang RR. Originally by: Diomidis A. IMHO is the exact opposite. We have less playing styles in PvP nowadays, and yes, with decent numbers you can abuse certain strengths and neglect certain weaknesses. We have less playing styles in pvp cos the game got gimped and player density got so large that the only reasonable options were gang pvp normally with RR, this contributed to amarrs increase in effectivness. Originally by: Diomidis B. Well...blaster irellevant, and indirect-boost for amarr irrelevant Rubbish, the mega was a good solo BS in its day, the web nerf and other things that allow small ships to be virtually immune to it while also being able to tackle and hold it untuil support arrives killed that dead, now its no more than a okish sniper and a third rate close range RR BS at best. Originally by: Diomidis A. Yes for all. But Blaster range / dps etc irrelevant. pre-nerfed ECM was in range for cruise Ravens and Cerbs all the time...I don't remember anyone whining about that - or claiming that the cruise raven was that good... B. Well, ECM is still the RR's nemesis. You just cannot be untouchable yourself at 200km for applying it, and that's not close to a Gallente nerf by any way. I did not say it was a blaster nerf i said it was a amaar boost and considering RR BS spiked and ECM was brought into range of Pulse its a amaar buff...oh and last i checked ravens and cerbs were hardly regular members of a RR BS gang..lol Stop moving the goal posts. Originally by: Diomidis 4. Yes, but that's more direct/relevant boost to ships that actually MWD into range as-well... A. So that they can actually fit lasers instead of Arties or ACs...that was a deserved change IMHO B. as I quoted above, it also helps blaster ships to keep targets in place once they catch em. 1. A speed reduction does not help ships that need to mwd into range... 2. Tell that to the myrm it also had a regular AC fit. 3. If they ever get in range....as math clearly shows 45km optimal vs 4.5km optimal = slower spped means the 45km optimal has a hugely larger advantage over a 4.5km optimal...basic math pal. Originally by: Diomidis Yes, but once again it also helps Blaster boats maintain the edge (range) if the fight starts in range those favour. You cannot always dictate the outcome, and you cannot prejudge if this change is good or bad for you. WTF are you on?...0km-4.5km of optimal that you do slightly more dmg with blasters VS 7km-45+km where you do more or LOADS more dmg...the CHANCE of a target being in the pulse laser sweet spot compared to the blaster sweet spot is around 1000% larger and its not like lasers suck in the blasters sweet spot anyway FFS.
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.11.07 23:22:00 - [149] Originally by: Diomidis Well, I do know of regions and ppl that roam around in HACs solo, and yes, they do take on other HACs...that fact that you cannot guarantee a solo fight, doesn't mean that solo fights do not exist. Yes, those are rare, but when so many ppl fly around the same regions, it's as good as it gets. And again I cannot see why being able to run away is a bad thing...ppl that like solo, like that feature - at least I do, as I prefer surving myself than fighting against all odds. You just dont get it, ppl know pretty much what ships they can or cannot beat so 1 v 1 vs another actual pvper is uber rare cos they will run from anything that can beat them. That means the very very best solo pvp ship in the game is a pain to fly cos you only get to gank ratters as everybody else runs away...now thats understandable but it does not change the fact that it makes solo pvp suck and makes ppl fly in gangs. Originally by: lecrotta 1st you are focusing on my 1vs1 BS "facts" that were merely focused on other ppl comparing stuff in 1vs1 occations. Ok heres the thing 1 v 1 BS is dead on TQ and has been for a long time so... If salesman tried to sell you the very best dodo catcher, the shiniest dodo catcher and you could see that it was in fact the best dodo catcher ever invented the thing would be worthless cos dodos are bloody extinct. Originally by: Diomidis Mr Clue-full, train for the abby then...it's a win-win situation. LVL5 amaar BS, lvl5 large pulse and beam specialisation....did it as soon as the nerfs and boosts hit the game....but you know what it dont fix blaster BS and thats what this is about... Originally by: Diomidis Diomidis can fly Amarr BSs for 3 years now. Did I train for another race BSs? No, I am now training for Gallente tbh...true...is cause of FOTM? Three years ago, by no means were Amarr BSs uber - but I started Amarr and remained Amarr. I didn't mind not being the best, and I didn't whine to be one. I had a corp and alliance backing my less-than-best ships. In fact then Megas were FOTM...and their playstyle too... You should really fly a ship before you lecture ppl on how good it is... Originally by: Diomidis I know Amarr BSs, and yes, I go after them in my ceptors and Vagas way more confident than I would against a Domi...despite the "nano-nerf" and their uber range/tracking combo. I just tend to fear scram/web and multiple neuts more, and Amarr can't do that in most cases.... Look at you own words..."than I would against a Domi"....WOULD against a domi as in do not cos you never see them solo only in gangs or ratting with ratting setups. Tough luck...should you base your whine on my case then? Originally by: Diomidis I loled at the better cap stability / Independence of the Abbys over the Mega...I lolled at it's uber tackling ability claims. 1. No BS is independant anymore 2. Range = no need to use MWD = no mwd cap usage. 3. looks for comments on tracking... I know it has more buffer tank if fitted for it...so? Yes it has more DPS if you stand to fight...so? - flee you have buffer to survive enough time and cap to outlast his MWD vs. yours. Originally by: Diomidis Solution? Don't fly solo in BSs, See you can learn..gratz. Originally by: Diomidis If you cannot do it in your ships, then train for another race. Im trained in and pretty much maxed out all 4 races T2 weapons and ships and upto lvl5 BS, apart from sheild/missile caldari ships....thanks. Originally by: Diomidis Since you sneak in BC for me, see how many ships I fly...most of those I use the most are widely different. And as i said none of them are a gallente BS, in fact i think i only see amaar BS tbh.....
honey bunchetta	Posted - 2009.11.07 23:40:00 - [150] Edited by: honey bunchetta on 07/11/2009 23:40:56 Loads of quotes.. 1 v 1 pvp in a BS is not just dead its dust on TQ. Solo pvp in smaller ships consists of mostly ganking ratters and maybe a 1 v 1 match if both players think they can win as was mentioned above, although even then if one starts to lose he still has a reasonable chance to get away in a lot of cases. So BS that were formerly solo pvp ships need adjusting to CCP'S idea that BS should not be able to solo and they should made better for gang pvp. Or CCP need to revise its rather foolish blanket policy for BS and make certain BS more viable for solo work as that was always their role while others were suited for gangs.

Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.08 00:18:00 - [151] Edited by: Diomidis on 08/11/2009 00:20:36 Originally by: lecrotta You just dont get it, ppl know pretty much what ships they can or cannot beat so 1 v 1 vs another actual pvper is uber rare cos they will run from anything that can beat them. That means the very very best solo pvp ship in the game is a pain to fly cos you only get to gank ratters as everybody else runs away...now thats understandable but it does not change the fact that it makes solo pvp suck and makes ppl fly in gangs. LoL...I don't get it...sorry...you are right... This is "I think my Gallente Boats and especially blasters and EOS / Myrm" ships suck thread. You now argue that Gallente suck cause ppl got to know the terms of the game and flee? Originally by: lecrotta Ok heres the thing 1 v 1 BS is dead on TQ and has been for a long time so... . Never claimed otherwise. I had the impression that I was arguing against ppl directly comparing BSs weapon systems 1vs1. Originally by: lecrotta If salesman tried to sell you the very best dodo catcher, the shiniest dodo catcher and you could see that it was in fact the best dodo catcher ever invented the thing would be worthless cos dodos are bloody extinct. I could collect dodo catchers ffs...and pay a lot for them! Completely irrelevant example. Useless stuff are not Worthless. E.g. EVE is useless in RL, but you pay for it (one way or another)...and if you enjoy it, it's not worthless. Originally by: lecrotta You should really fly a ship before you lecture ppl on how good it is... Well, I think flying against stuff is enough to get a clue tbh... Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Diomidis I know Amarr BSs, and yes, I go after them in my ceptors and Vagas way more confident than I would against a Domi...despite the "nano-nerf" and their uber range/tracking combo. I just tend to fear scram/web and multiple neuts more, and Amarr can't do that in most cases.... Look at you own words..."than I would against a Domi"....WOULD against a domi as in do not cos you never see them solo only in gangs or ratting with ratting setups. Tough luck...should you base your whine on my case then? You make too many assumptions that irrelevant not only to my posts and point, but the thread in general. And off-course I am the last one whining in this thread, but guess what...Arguing Spec V still misses from your skill-tree. A lot of "I DO" - "YOU DON'T" claims, no facts other than the obvious: aka Lasers outrange and outdps blasters at range, and Abbys are better for RR gangs than Megas...wow... Also comparing ships used in KBs and BS used is also context based: That fleet of mine, consisting of 100+ BSs would get me in like 20-30KMs in a single fight. If I was using the Rokh or the Temp of the Mega for these fleet fights wouldn't make any difference - would it? An active player can get hundreds of kills in a BS during a campain, and still know nothing more than locking primaries and hitting F1-F8. That cannot guarantee actually grasping game mechanics, nor an impressive nearly all-V char skill-tree can. Those cover just part of the whole and cannot be used in arguments by themselves. I would bow to KM facts if you've shown me fights - not "Stats"...say small gang or roaming gang kills vs. ships that were done solely cause of the gangs consistency itself. Say, RR Amarr vs. RR Gallente gangs...but those thing do not exist in TQ or Sisi, or KBs, do they? Very unlike say Falcons that did turn hugely un-advantageous fights etc. So the whole "Blasters need boosting" claims are more paper based than anything else, and mostly based on personal opinions than hard facts. And being unable to solo another ship is not a hard fact, but still that's the logic behind each and every laser vs. blaster whine. Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.08 00:34:00 - [152] Edited by: Murina on 08/11/2009 00:42:25 Originally by: Diomidis You now argue that Gallente suck cause ppl got to know the terms of the game and flee? 1 v 1 comparisons are pointless cos real pvper vs pvper 1 v 1 is too rare to be a good guide... 1 v 1 caught ratter vs pvper is not so rare but loads of ships can kill ratters. Originally by: Diomidis I could collect dodo catchers ffs...and pay a lot for them! Completely irrelevant example. Useless stuff are not Worthless. E.g. EVE is useless in RL, but you pay for it (one way or another)...and if you enjoy it, it's not worthless. You could quite happily collect dodo catchers, you could collect millions of them....but could you ever catch a dodo with one?....nope, so in the context of a ship that is good at a exdtinct form of pvp the ship becomes worthless and pointless for the task under discussion. Is that really the best answer you can come up with against his question?, a uttery stupid comparison in a attempt to dismiss summat you are unable to refute....so you think that a ship is good at a non existant form of pvp so is fine.....yea right. Would you pay for eve if it did not work and you could not login to even set your skill training let alone play the game?....no you would not. Originally by: Diomidis So the whole "Blasters need boosting" claims are more paper based than anything else, and mostly based on personal opinions than hard facts. Its the arguments against the boost that are paper based and your comments about 1 v 1 and your very own clear admission about not ever having flown a blaster BS cleary show that and it is also you and ppl like you whos comments are based on personal opinion and no hard facts at all. How can you in one breath freely admit you have no xp flying a ship and then tell somebody who has that it is him who is making claims without hard facts?....
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.08 01:18:00 - [153] Originally by: Murina You could quite happily collect dodo catchers, you could collect millions of them....but could you ever catch a dodo with one?....nope, so in the context of a ship that is good at a exdtinct form of pvp the ship becomes worthless and pointless for the task under discussion. Is that really the best answer you can come up with against his question?, a uttery stupid comparison in a attempt to dismiss summat you are unable to refute....so you think that a ship is good at a non existant form of pvp so is fine.....yea right. Would you pay for eve if it did not work and you could not login to even set your skill training let alone play the game?....no you would not. You call me an idiot arguing back at a completely irrelevant comparisson? U are right, cause dodo catchers are as useless now-days as ppl feeling that blasters are useless, and use the BS class of those as a proof. Originally by: Murina your comments about 1 v 1 and your very own clear admission about not ever having flown a blaster BS cleary show that and it is also you and ppl like you whos comments are based on personal opinion and no hard facts at all. You make assumptions and talk in cycles too...the fact that Diomidis's Char has no blaster-BS records prove nothing around my knowledge and/or experience around them, and on the same way you cannot be entitled judge me or my arguments based on your hypothetic assumptions. Originally by: Murina How can you in one breath freely admit you have no xp flying a ship and then tell somebody who has that it is him who is making claims without hard facts?.... I can make claims for the Apoc's weaknesses, and I have a few kills with it - does that make my claims valid? NO...KMs and SPs by themselves prove nothing really, and surely do not entitle anyone to get down to personal insults. Originally by: Murina In every thread theres ppl like you claiming BS/blasters are fine and when confronted its always you who have no XP in flying them ever. listen mr, I use blaster boats, and I use medium sized ones with enough success not to think of em as useless. And I think - yes it's my opinion - that med blasters have a bigger prob fighting in scram/web range than BS sized ones - so if you can do it with meds, u can do it with large too. Also "ppl like you" thinking that Blasters need boost, and whiners in general, comfortably forget "stuff", and I mean limitations. As I mentioned above, you think that amarr BSs are so good, have so much PG and fitting etc, but have you tried fitting one? Can you have MWD / Point / Web / Cap Boosters and active tank with them? Are you willing to get more range for example in blasters and loose drones, mids, and ability to fit all your gun hardpoints without downgrading guns (guess, only two tiers of lasors to start with), and/or leaving out important tackle or MWD or / or / or? Having your speed reduced to 2 digit figures (rigged Abby)? I now you wouldn't...you just ask for stuff better than anyone else, having less limitations than anyone else etc... I don't have to fly a ship (and afaik I could and you couldn't know) to understand that somethings are overpowered or not, or when ppl are just greedy and ask way more than they should. Ppl claim to ask for viable, while they ask for overpowered and being FOTM. Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Jack Icegaard The Omega Project	Posted - 2009.11.08 02:12:00 - [154] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Jack Icegaard From where comes the notion that heavy drones are BS sized weapons? [à] To me, there is nothing battleship-sized about sentry's [sic] or heavy drones. That's because you haven't look at them. Things like tracking, speed, size etc. make it quite obviousà Oh silly me, i have not looked at them. So you mean that heavy drones are BS-sized weapons because they are mainly supposed to be used against battleships, or are they BS-sized because they are mainly deployed by battleships? Its not clear to me what your definition are. The sig resolution of heavy drones are 125 which incidentally is the same as medium turrets. Obviously that's a BS-sized weapon?
Mr Ignitious Helljumpers	Posted - 2009.11.08 03:58:00 - [155] How can you POSSIBLY say that its easier to hit targets with LARGE blasters than MEDIUM blasters? The tracking difference is HUGE. Plus, the issue here almost isn't even the tracking, its the damage difference. Seriously, explain to me how it does not seem fubard that a Heavy pulse laser II with MF deals 95% of the damage a heavy neutron blaster II with AM but the pulse laser has TWICE THE RANGE. I don't care about the tracking, its reasonable as long as you never try to orbit with gallente ships, but they should at least have a noticeable dps advantage for getting into range on a target. 20% advantage of MF with AM sounds great to me. In addition this helps the poop rails as well. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.08 06:16:00 - [156] Originally by: Mr Ignitious How can you POSSIBLY say that its easier to hit targets with LARGE blasters than MEDIUM blasters? The tracking difference is HUGE. Plus, the issue here almost isn't even the tracking, its the damage difference. The main problem of Blasters is range, not Tracking. You get into more tracking issues as you move in closer to your optimal, yes, but the main problem is the optimal range itself. The Bane of Blasters is out-ranging them...a fast opponent will keep you at range if you don't use scram + web, so the engagement envelope of blaster ships is usually contained within those constrains: scram + web range or their overheated limits. Round it to less than 10km. If a blaster ships with less than 2.5km optimal and 6.3km falloff is "viable" within the above scenario (the Brutix or another med blaster ship), a blaster boat with double those figures (the Mega or another blaster BS) will not be outranged within scram + web range. So if med blasters are viable, large are surely viable as-well. Range wise. If you think that tracking is more important than range, I don't think ppl will agree with you. Originally by: Mr Ignitious Seriously, explain to me how it does not seem fubard that a Heavy pulse laser II with MF deals 95% of the damage a heavy neutron blaster II with AM but the pulse laser has TWICE THE RANGE. I don't care about the tracking, its reasonable as long as you never try to orbit with gallente ships, but they should at least have a noticeable dps advantage for getting into range on a target. 20% advantage of MF with AM sounds great to me. In addition this helps the poop rails as well. "Fubard" ? At least try not to over-estimate numbers that you can actually test easily in EFT or something...With standard close range ammo, the NB II does 16.7% more dmg than the MP with MF... Were does that 95% come from? Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.08 11:33:00 - [157] Originally by: Diomidis You make assumptions and talk in cycles too...the fact that Diomidis's Char has no blaster-BS records prove nothing around my knowledge and/or experience around them, and on the same way you cannot be entitled judge me or my arguments based on your hypothetic assumptions. They are not hypothetical assumtions because you freely admited youraself rto having 0 flight or pvp time in a blaster BS. Originally by: Diomidis I can make claims for the Apoc's weaknesses, and I have a few kills with it - does that make my claims valid? NO...KMs and SPs by themselves prove nothing really, and surely do not entitle anyone to get down to personal insults. It makes you a person with experiance with the actual ship and able to make a hiopefully reasonable judgment about it, ok some ppl lie just to get theior race boosted or other races kept crap but ppl like that are rare and soon get outed. The fact is that most ppl calling for a BS blaaster buff of some sort ALL have flown blaster BS while thjose saying they are fine are like you...with 0 xp in them. Originally by: Diomidis listen mr, I use blaster boats, and I use medium sized ones with enough success not to think of em as useless. And I think - yes it's my opinion - that med blasters have a bigger prob fighting in scram/web range than BS sized ones - so if you can do it with meds, u can do it with large too. You have no idea wtf your talking about and you just proved it without a doubt. Originally by: Diomidis Can you have MWD / Point / Web / Cap Boosters and active tank with them? Are you willing to get more range for example in blasters and loose drones, mids, and ability to fit all your gun hardpoints without downgrading guns (guess, only two tiers of lasors to start with), and/or leaving out important tackle or MWD or / or / or? Having your speed reduced to 2 digit figures (rigged Abby)? S. T. F U. Can you have a MWD / Point / Web / Cap Boosters and active tank on a mega without down grading?....NO!!!! and if you flew them you would know that fool. Can you even have a RR BS blaster fit with a eanms/plate PASSIVE tank without using faction mods and a MED cap injector....u]NO!!!![/u] and if you flew them you would know that fool. EVERY TIME YOU POST YOU SHOW HOW LITTLE YOU KNOW ABOUT THE LIMITATIONS (FITTING AND ACTUALLY FLYING) OF BLASTER BS SO AS I SAY S.T.F.U. UNTIL YOU DO.
Emperor Ryan Amarr Imperial Syndicate Forces	Posted - 2009.11.08 11:33:00 - [158] Originally by: Precisionist Pretty much everyone will choose lasers or AC's on gallente ships because they are usually useless in most pvp fights. And rails do sht damage. I think a boost in blasters will fix a lot of gallente ship problems. Because we all know Ac Gank Megas And Pulse Laser Diemost's are so the way to go. Infact the Only ships that might be fit without blasters is an Ishtar, Domi, or a laser Thorax/Hyperon - Emperor
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.08 11:48:00 - [159] Originally by: Diomidis The main problem of Blasters is range, not Tracking. You get into more tracking issues as you move in closer to your optimal, yes, but the main problem is the optimal range itself. The Bane of Blasters is out-ranging them...a fast opponent will keep you at range if you don't use scram + web, so the engagement envelope of blaster ships is usually contained within those constrains: scram + web range or their overheated limits. Round it to less than 10km. If a blaster ships with less than 2.5km optimal and 6.3km falloff is "viable" within the above scenario (the Brutix or another med blaster ship), a blaster boat with double those figures (the Mega or another blaster BS) will not be outranged within scram + web range. HMMM im sure somebody was bleating on about certain individuals using theory instead of facts....med blasters "IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS" are fine so you "think" large are as well....back to the drawing board JR and keep those "theories" comming. Med blasters have a quite reasonable array of available targets, they can hit most sizes of ships in range effectivly apart from the very very small and fast, Blaster BS on the other hand are another beastie altogether ppl who actually fly them know this.
Sean Faust Gallente Point of No Return Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.11.08 15:36:00 - [160] Anyone who complains about the Eos's lack of DPS fails to understand the ship's role. It was nerfed accordingly because it was better than the Astarte at it's job, providing comparable DPS output with a vastly superior tank and utility. That is not what Fleet Command ships are supposed to do. The DPS nerf of the Astarte was needed because it performed better outside of its role than ships intended for those roles, such as the Astarte.

Mr Ignitious Helljumpers	Posted - 2009.11.08 16:06:00 - [161] Getting away from diomidis because it's hopeless... What about changing infowarfare links to a DPS booster? Like ROF for all weapons, maybe tracking too (explosion rad/velocity either of those for missiles), and maybe damage mod or something. Obviously, like with all the other warfare links they would be stacking penalized with modules that bonus the same things. Obviously the eos doesn't deal incredible dps and SHOULDN'T but perhaps giving it the highest dps even if by 2% of the fleet cs and being the booster for ganky fleets could work. It sounds fun, it's applicable, and as far as I can tell it wouldn't be overpowered. The numbers I was thinking was (with out mindlink) a 12% rof bonus, 15% tracking bonus, and 15% damage mod bonus. Keep in mind gang links are stacking penalized with modules as well. The new leadership skill could give a 2% per level to optimal range (missile flight duration). Mindlink would change that to 15%. Numbers seem reasonable, obviously FAR more applicable than the current gang links, fits the gallente theology, and sounds like a ton of fun. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
honey bunchetta	Posted - 2009.11.08 17:08:00 - [162] Originally by: Sean Faust Anyone who complains about the Eos's lack of DPS fails to understand the ship's role. It was nerfed accordingly because it was better than the Astarte at it's job, providing comparable DPS output with a vastly superior tank and utility. Then why not boost the astarte instead of nerfing the eos?...oh yea its cos ppl like nerfs...and why make a couple of ships good when you can make 2 crap ones..
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.08 17:18:00 - [163] Originally by: Murina S. T. F U. Can you have a MWD / Point / Web / Cap Boosters and active tank on a mega without down grading?....[b]NO!!!!and if you flew them you would know that fool. Can you even have a RR BS blaster fit with a eanms/plate PASSIVE tank without using faction mods and a MED cap injector....NO!!!! and if you flew them you would know that fool. EVERY TIME YOU POST YOU SHOW HOW LITTLE YOU KNOW ABOUT THE LIMITATIONS (FITTING AND ACTUALLY FLYING) OF BLASTER BS SO AS I SAY S.T.F.U. UNTIL YOU DO. You arrogant @@, Yes, you downgrade to your 2/3 tier weapon and still can do like 1025 dps or mix Ions and Neutrons and have like 998dps and 105K EHP WITH A LARGE UNSTABLE, PVP trinity, LAR, HCB II, 30% more speed than an abby (before MWD)...you can also switch to Null and push your optimal in par with scram range... Do that with an amarr ship...and maintain neut and MWD and cap booster. Is it the best? No, but at least it can be done. Arguing that you cannot fit full neutrons with the above auxilary equipment is like minmatar ppl arguing that the Phoon is weak cause - yes, it passes the 1000 dps mark, "but you have to downgrade to D650mm IIs... Ships heaving obvious weaknesses is part of the game's philosophy. Amarr BSs have really obvious weaknesses and tradeoffs you so conviniently forget whenever it suits you. So yes, it's NORMAL that Med turrets can track all sized of opponents better than Large ones...is there a reason to argue otherwise? It's just that spoiled arrogant @@ cannot grasp that, and get verbal to anyone that just doesn't like your way. It will be the same in 1 year or so, when so many ppl switching to the "perfect" Amarr BSs get a direct or indirect nerf, then I assure you ppl like you will continue ***ing and like me continue to see the bright side. Join the Biggest Greek Corp![/b] www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!**
At God	Posted - 2009.11.08 17:21:00 - [164] I didn't read the whole topic now. I mean...6 pages, cmon :D I'm just coming back to the topic now: The only Gallente ship for me that needs a buff, is the Erebus. cmon, 7 slots, wtf? It's a 15km baby! It really should have 8. :)
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.08 17:28:00 - [165] Edited by: Murina on 08/11/2009 17:34:29 Originally by: Diomidis You arrogant @@, You cluless **. Go play on sissi or with your eft its all your good for. Originally by:** Diomidis Yes, you downgrade to your 2/3 tier weapon and still can do like 1025 dps or mix Ions and Neutrons and have like 998dps and 105K EHP WITH A LARGE UNSTABLE, PVP trinity, LAR, HCB II, 30% more speed than an abby (before MWD)...you can also switch to Null and push your optimal in par with scram range... Post the FULL fit and stop pulling bllsht numbers out of you ass or stfu. Il asume your gonna stfu cos the fits and numbers your talking about are a joke for pvp on TQ.


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