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New Dev Blog: Dominion Upkeep and Upgrades: The Expanded Edition

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
Pattern Clarc Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:01:00 - [91] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 18/11/2009 17:01:40 You know exactly what the biggest contributors to cheap t1 minerals is but yet your totally unwilling to take any action even though it would probably solve a whole lot of issues. As for the changes, they are a step in the right direction. All those of you complaining about inflation are missing the point completely. ____ Minmatar ship fixes...
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:03:00 - [92] it's also a massive misconception that there will be any less towers in dominion (see racial armor plates) which was your reasoning for these (high) sov costs, wasn't it? undo plz - putting the gist back into logistics
Pwnzorator	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:04:00 - [93] I'm rather concerned by the addition of more downtime based mechanics. Quote: Ore Prospecting Arrays These sites will re-spawn every downtime, so even if you do not mine out every rock, there will be fresh ones waiting for you the next day. So 0.0 systems with outposts will be mined out of the king arkonor etc. shortly after downtime. Quote: Entrapment Upon completion of running the site, there is the possibility of finding another one (no waiting until next downtime). This insinuates that unless you hit the respawn possibility, your next spawn chance is downtime. I thought that we'd seen dev posts in the past saying we wouldn't see any new mechanics based on downtime, as they're unfair. Some of us live in timezones where downtime is during work hours, or in the middle of the night, and don't get a chance to exploit these resources
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:05:00 - [94] Originally by: Roemy Schneider it's also a massive misconception that there will be any less towers in dominion (see racial armor plates) which was your reasoning for these (high) sov costs, wasn't it? undo plz i don't know about what alliance 'vanishing point.' is in but most nullsec alliances have a crapload of towers that exist purely to hold sov that will vanish on dec 1st, hth! Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:06:00 - [95] Originally by: CCP Soundwave It's a massive misconception that anomalies are not profitable. As said before, the top ones (which you'll have permanently available through the top tier upgrades) isk for isk match the most profitable missions, and certainly blow ratting out of the water. Added to that, we're looking at more ways to improve on the planned content, hopefully building on the foundation we're laying now. I've ran about 30 CA's over the years and every single of one them was about 1/3 as useful as running a level 4 mission and took about the same amount of time. They are useless pointless, unsafe ,**ty and totally random as to what you get out of them. If you understood just how ing bad they were compared to a mission you might care but your sitting up in your ivory tower now that you work for ccp. But hey its not like our opinion or practical experince make any difference you idiots are CCP makes all the decision like CCP Nohz and **ing over ships are a wim just because you can.
teji Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:06:00 - [96] Originally by: CCP Soundwave It's a massive misconception that anomalies are not profitable. They most certainly aren't profitable on TQ. That is no misconception. It looks like you have changed them on SiSi so we'll see how you've done in making them actually competitive to other activities. Quote: As said before, the top ones (which you'll have permanently available through the top tier upgrades) isk for isk match the most profitable missions, and certainly blow ratting out of the water. Oh, ok so there still isn't any reason to not do level 4 missions in empire instead of grinding for standings which decay if you go on vacation for a few days. Imagine the outrage if your empire standings decayed if you didn't log on for a few days. That would be pretty funny.
xttz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:08:00 - [97] Originally by: Gnulpie 80 trillion per month You can't assume anything about increased anomaly inflation without knowing how much ISK comes in from current ratting and missions. Despite what CCP hopes, Dominion isn't going to double the number of players overnight. Anyone using the new anomalies will be someone who was ratting or running level 4's formerly. This also ignores how many people will move over to upgraded mining, salvage or more wormhole missions from their upgrades - none of which cause inflation.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:08:00 - [98] Originally by: The Mittani That said, having to haul 200 freighter-loads of crap from Empire in only one week during the grace period is terrible. If the size of hubs could be reduced a bit, or the grace period extended, that'd be nice. GS has a fairly compact little empire close to hisec, I shudder to think what far-flung alliances such as Atlas, AAA and the dronies will have to suffer through. Why would you want to have 200 I-Hubs? Are you perhaps planning on migrating the whole EVE population to your territory to fulfill some kind of uber-carebear fantasy? You're only going to need some 40-60 of them at most.
Sloth Arnini Arcana Imperii Ltd.	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:10:00 - [99] Because I'm a reasonable person and don't just rage about changes simply because my alliance demands, I want to say that I am happier with Dominion than I was when the first blog on upgrades and costs was released. I remain concerned about the likelihood of increased complex spawns flooding the market with deadspace loot, however. I have only one character capable of making money in 0.0 which means that if I find a big complex, I need backup from other players to complete it. In other words, I do not have the characters to dual box a plex. This also means (being a conscientious individual who doesn't want to rip off his alliance/corpmates) I have to share the revenue from a pimp drop. Say I completed a 10/10 with three other people. Yes, they can probably be dual boxed by people who already have pimped out Navy Ravens, but that's by the by. I do not have a pimped out Navy Raven and cannot afford to get one. Now today, I might get an X-Type mod worth 1 billion isk. Shared out between 4 people, that's 250 mill each, which pays for quite a lot. In Dominion, that mod might be worth half that or less, with a corresponding reduction in the take home cut. But the diffiuclty of the complex is unchanged. It is good to have luxuries in games. The chance to make that big score is a big motivator to plug away at ratting and exploration, which gets boring fast. Dilute or take that away, and making money becomes even more of a chore than it currently is.
Wu Phat	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:10:00 - [100] lvl 4's are kinda boring in all respect. Plex's with the added ability of anomalies gives you a crazy amount of isk. For Thoose who fly Morauders this is a none stop farm of isk. There is no docking up (If you fly a paladin),unless need ammo. But even then you would have a salvager behind you. At most a max system which they talk about could support 5-6 Marudaers none stop. For them to Finish and move to the next one is 100x faster then any other ship class. I seen someone talk about each anomaly is worth 10 mill in bounty. Thats 10 mill every 8-10 mins plus loot. Melt it, sell it,Build it. Thats 60 mill an hour. Thats higher then an unpredictable lvl 4 mission.
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:12:00 - [101] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: The Mittani That said, having to haul 200 freighter-loads of crap from Empire in only one week during the grace period is terrible. If the size of hubs could be reduced a bit, or the grace period extended, that'd be nice. GS has a fairly compact little empire close to hisec, I shudder to think what far-flung alliances such as Atlas, AAA and the dronies will have to suffer through. Why would you want to have 200 I-Hubs? Are you perhaps planning on migrating the whole EVE population to your territory to fulfill some kind of uber-carebear fantasy? You're only going to need some 40-60 of them at most. Apparely you dont need anything but ihub to make sov and all the other stuff work now eh? Did you even look at all the other upgrade mods required to get systems anywhere close to what they are today?
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:14:00 - [102] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Why would you want to have 200 I-Hubs? Are you perhaps planning on migrating the whole EVE population to your territory to fulfill some kind of uber-carebear fantasy? You're only going to need some 40-60 of them at most. i want to make a sculpture out of them in the shape of a dong, i'm pretty upset that you can't have multiple hubs in a system X( Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:14:00 - [103] Sounds better, but we will see after people can actually start testing these. Shooting NPCs is pretty much the same no matter where you do it(W-space not included), so only the actual numbers matter. The only thing that really worries me at this point is, that your track record for following up on feature development promises isn't exactly the best. Painting a grand vision of things to come is worthless if you lack the will and dedication to follow it through.
Hegbard	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:14:00 - [104] Originally by: Dianabolic 20 insta-spawning plex's sounds, to me, like an awful lot of cash flooding in to the system. Have you ever been to Motsu? Quote: Has any consideration been given to follow the drone region model, whereby you don't get any bounties (or certainly a vastly reduced one) but the meta-drop levels are increased dramatically? Making mining even more useless and making insurance fraud the primary source of ISK.
Jackman Herzog	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:14:00 - [105] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: xttz Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: EvilweaselFinance people who are worried about inflation have missed the trillion-isk/month (at least) isk sink that just got added to the game What trillion isk / month?? .... How many maxed out 0.0 systems could exist? 100? 1000? There are currently: 2204 Systems with sov between 1 and 4 If every system with sov currently claimed was carried over without upgrades into Dominion, its a 528b/year isk sink. If every conq station was fully upgraded, its a 467bn isk sink plus around 1-2bn per system for all hubs and upgrades required. Now throw in all the Hubs, upgrades TCUs and BCUs that will be bought and lost as territory is invaded and conqured. If anything 1 trillion is too small an estimate. Let's assume all those 2204 systems would be upgraded to the max. Then the upkeep costs would be: 39 mil upkeep per day * 2204 systems * 30 days = 2579 billion isk upkeep per month Now if we assume also that 1/20 of the systems have military index 5, if we assume that one anomaly takes 1 hour and that all anomalies could be occupied 50% of the time and that each of those high-end anomalies pay 10 mil in bounty, then we will have an _additional_ income from those anomalies alone: 110 systems * 20 anomalies * 23 anomaly respawns/day * 0.50 occupancy * 10 mil per anomaly * 30 days = 7590 billion isk income per month So, you have 2579 billion additional costs due to upkeep. But you have 7590 billion income from those anomalies. That makes a net additional income after Dominion of 5.01 TRILLION isk per month. Now please explain me, where is that deflation? And my assumptions are pretty conservative: only 5% of the systems maxed out, only 50% coverage of the anomalies, only 10 mil income for each anomaly, up to one hour time to run one anomaly, and ALL current sov systems also claimed and max upgraded after Dominion. Also I didn't consider the non-maxed systems. If 20% systems are maxed, 66% coverage of the anomalies, 15 mil income and 45 minutes time for each anomaly, then you would have an income from those anomalies of 80 trillion per month compared to 2.6 trillion expanses due to upkeep. That are 960 trillion in one year. I think that this is a pretty large sum and IS significant for the economy. A word from CCP might be nice here. How many systems do you expect to have a maxed out military index? How many systems do you think SHOULD be maxed out? How much of that isk is going away from lvl 4 missions, either from 0.0 residents missioning on alts or from carebears moving into 0.0 for the better rewards? My concern is for the mineral crash coming from the "mythical beasts". Unless none of this brings anyone into 0.0 and everything stays the same except for the size of the colors on the map, of course.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:15:00 - [106] I didn't read the OP but am posting to express either outrage or support. Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
wallenbergaren	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:16:00 - [107] So, when you say that these anomalies are as good as the best level 4 missions are you taking LP into account?
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:18:00 - [108] Also I have to ask, why is CCP so opposed to making upgrades which affect belt rats? Most inhabitants of conquerable 0.0 (those who dont have a highsec L4 alt, that is) use belt ratting to make the bulk of their ISK, yet CCP seem to have gone out of their way to deliberately not provide improvements to them and encourage complexes and ores instead. Is it simply a 'belt rats are too easy to macro' issue, or something else which stops you adding increased respawn rate/spawn size/bounty and instead pushing us into different ways of making money?
Xornicon Altair Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:21:00 - [109] I've asked before and I'm going to ask again... what happened to the plans for a cost multiplier based on the number of systems held? Without making too much Sov expensive, these "AFK Empires" (CCP's term, not mine, from the original DevBlog announcing Dominion) will continue to be AFK and Dominion will achieve none of it's stated goals of making more space available for the smaller alliances that wish to break into 0.0. I just did some quick calculations based on the value numbers provided and without any multiplier, my alliance, who's income is limited because we tend to avoid mining, ratting, and mission running, will be able to easily cover the cost of the few systems we hold. We could just as easily expand to double the systems we currently hold, although there would be no benefit in doing so other than lighting up on the map. And if we can do it without carebearing or high-end moons, then the large AFK Empires will have no problem sorting it out and maintaining their space. This means Dominion fails and you may as well have left us with the POS based system we have now. ----- Vancouver EVE Players Gathering!
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:23:00 - [110] Originally by: Wu Phat lvl 4's are kinda boring in all respect. Plex's with the added ability of anomalies gives you a crazy amount of isk. For Thoose who fly Morauders this is a none stop farm of isk. There is no docking up (If you fly a paladin),unless need ammo. But even then you would have a salvager behind you. At most a max system which they talk about could support 5-6 Marudaers none stop. For them to Finish and move to the next one is 100x faster then any other ship class. I seen someone talk about each anomaly is worth 10 mill in bounty. Thats 10 mill every 8-10 mins plus loot. Melt it, sell it,Build it. Thats 60 mill an hour. Thats higher then an unpredictable lvl 4 mission. Have you even run a CA yourself and know what you are talking about? Obviously not. I guess you've never run into a rogue drone plex or a **ty plex with 10 rats or any number of other variants of really ty CA's. Not to mention this 20 instant spawning CA's . They can spawn within 5 AU of any single Celestial in the system so you will have to constantly be scanning and praying some other person isn't in the next one otherwise you get to sit out and wait again until you find another one. CA's will be y isk/time reward. And what the hell is this about mineral site only respawning at downtime? do you want this to turn into the old exploration system where the people living in the aussy/russian time zones getting the best exploration again? Originally by:** Scatim Helicon Also I have to ask, why is CCP so opposed to making upgrades which affect belt rats? Most inhabitants of conquerable 0.0 (those who dont have a highsec L4 alt, that is) use belt ratting to make the bulk of their ISK, yet CCP seem to have gone out of their way to deliberately not provide improvements to them and encourage complexes and ores instead. Is it simply a 'belt rats are too easy to macro' issue, or something else which stops you adding increased respawn rate/spawn size/bounty and instead pushing us into different ways of making money? Changing old code isn't CCP's way because they are incompetent and can't bother touching anything that is old.
EvilweaselFinance Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:26:00 - [111] Originally by: CCP Soundwave It's a massive misconception that anomalies are not profitable. As said before, the top ones (which you'll have permanently available through the top tier upgrades) isk for isk match the most profitable missions, and certainly blow ratting out of the water. Added to that, we're looking at more ways to improve on the planned content, hopefully building on the foundation we're laying now. It is not. We constantly have people decide to give them a shot, and invariably they realize they are not worth it. I don't know how you've messed up the math badly enough to think they're profitable, but if you are starting from the assumption they are this is going to fall flat on its face. Top-tier CA's are not worth it right now. If you can run one of those, you can do something much better with your time. I had hoped you realized how bad these were and were going to introduce more but this statement makes me think that's not the case, that you will just be seeding some of these "high-end" sites nobody bothers to run right now anyway.
L'Artest	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:34:00 - [112] Originally by: xttz Edited by: xttz on 18/11/2009 15:55:07 Ok here goes 1. When a system is under attack and a hub is destroyed, progress is preserved by the defender not being able to anchor a new hub until SBUs are destroyed. How is progress preserved for outpost, and what stops the defender retaking and repairing it to gain extra reinforced timers? 2. Will there be any mechanic to build hubs and upgrades from smaller materials, or are players actually expected to haul scores of freighters in under a week just to keep their existing space? 3. Will the sov-based restrictions on starbases be lifted, such as the anchoring limit of 1/5 per day. 3a.Will starbases recieve any form of buff now they are now longer the focus of sov and will be used far less often? Capital ship proliferation since starbases were introduced makes them relatively weak in small numbers, and the starbase defense role is now marginalised. The current stront-based reinforce timer leaves industrial towers such as capital ship arrays hilariously vulnerable to impromptu kiting and constant job interruption. 4. Do you realise how much the recent mothership changes break sov mechanics? sits a dozen motherships on an outpost repairs it docks after taking 50m damage repairs for free, resumes repping please respond to this post
Bagdon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:39:00 - [113] Originally by: CCP Soundwave It's a massive misconception that anomalies are not profitable. As said before, the top ones (which you'll have permanently available through the top tier upgrades) isk for isk match the most profitable missions, and certainly blow ratting out of the water. Let's just get one thing clear here. You're talking about some new anomalies that aren't on TQ right now? Right? This is what I believe confuses everyone.
Wu Phat	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:43:00 - [114] Goons are worryed about there afk empire and have to actually play the game. Atlas is worryed about there prized capital Fleet becoming stuffed puppys. CVA is worried there get crushed becuase they won't have anything to hide behind. I think Dominion is doing a fine job in taming these monsters.

CCP Soundwave	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:43:00 - [115] Originally by: EvilweaselFinance Originally by: CCP Soundwave It's a massive misconception that anomalies are not profitable. As said before, the top ones (which you'll have permanently available through the top tier upgrades) isk for isk match the most profitable missions, and certainly blow ratting out of the water. Added to that, we're looking at more ways to improve on the planned content, hopefully building on the foundation we're laying now. It is not. We constantly have people decide to give them a shot, and invariably they realize they are not worth it. I don't know how you've messed up the math badly enough to think they're profitable, but if you are starting from the assumption they are this is going to fall flat on its face. Top-tier CA's are not worth it right now. If you can run one of those, you can do something much better with your time. I had hoped you realized how bad these were and were going to introduce more but this statement makes me think that's not the case, that you will just be seeding some of these "high-end" sites nobody bothers to run right now anyway. It's not worth it currently because whenever you enter a system, you're given a mixed bag of anomalies. Currently, you'd have to warp from system to system, tracking the high end ones. With the new system, you'll have them constantly available. So saying "I cleared out two systems of anomalies yesterday and didn't make a lot of money" might certainly be true, but saying "I ran the top anomalies of a level five system and didn't make a lot of money" isn't.

Illectroculus Defined	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:44:00 - [116] I still don't like the basic money => claims & upgrades system because it means that the best way for an alliance to pay is to have a bunch of pilots in empire running lvl4 missions - even more so in the case of the drone regions. System claims and upgrades should be paid for by a special 'claim credit' currency which is attached to each system, if any rats get killed in the system then the system owner gets claim credits, even if the killer has nothing to do with the alliance owning the system. This makes things a whole lot better for alliances in the Drone regions, and for alliances who want to run with an NRDS policy and can get the credits to sustain systems from neutrals using their space.
Kernok	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:45:00 - [117] are there chances of faction/officer/hauler spawns in anomalies or is that reserved for belts???
Misaki Yuuko	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:45:00 - [118] people talking about inflation, get a clue: 1) Usually people does X activity to earn Y income to spend on Z (ships for pewpew, pimped deadspace mods, whatever), regardless of the space, the only thing is if an activity requeires mroe or less time. 2) There isn't going to be suddenlly an increase of hours dedicated to isk earning acitivities neither an increase in manpower, and even if there was an increase in manpower, the first point stands, cancelling the effect and thus not icnreasing inflation. What is better is, if ISK/H or labour to earn Y is reduced, more time will be dedicated to otehr more itneresting activities like roaming or plain warfare. 3) Even if the above wasn't true, 'npcing' is not only about bounties, but about salvage and loot (that's why it's important to retain loot in some way or an other). One of the reasons it's that way is to keep a balnce between ISK:goods and mantein ISK value in a certain range. 4) All the 'inflation' argument is negated by the sole existence of lvl4 missions in empire, so STFU. Overall changes and rebalance seem fine for a good fundation for future iterations, I still not sure about if there will be enough incentive for individuals and income generation activities in 0.0 which is key to success of this 'exodus 2.0'. Also I think there of a lot of more interesting ideas for industrial upgrades (related to industry/research jobs and outposts bonus), and I'm sure a lot of people can think about nice strategic upgrades. I still think JB and cynojammers should have more expensive upkeep (2x), this would really force alliances to think where to deploy them. All that said, some not directlly related but also important info I would like to know: a) It will be possible to deploy several outposts in a single system in the future? (Also I think outposts should be TOTALLY decoupled of sov contesting: no reinforcement and no crapp.) b) What are you goign to do regarding the situation with outpost upgrades & their cost? As it stands, NPC stations are so much better than outposts, when it should be the otehr way around: NPC stations heavilly nerfed in all aspects (more icenntive to go to 0.0) and outpost base atrtibutes and upgrades made better.
teji Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:48:00 - [119] Edited by: teji on 18/11/2009 17:48:32 Originally by: CCP Soundwave So saying "I cleared out two systems of anomalies yesterday and didn't make a lot of money" might certainly be true, but saying "I ran the top anomalies of a level five system and didn't make a lot of money" isn't. How do we get from which has been shown to be true: (Current top tier anomaly)/time = not worth it To what you propose to be true: (Current top tier anomalynumber of sites run)/(timenumber of sites run) = Worth it? Your math makes no sense. Number of sites does not factor into the equation.
EvilweaselFinance Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:49:00 - [120] Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 18/11/2009 17:50:51 Originally by: CCP Soundwave It's not worth it currently because whenever you enter a system, you're given a mixed bag of anomalies. Currently, you'd have to warp from system to system, tracking the high end ones. With the new system, you'll have them constantly available. So saying "I cleared out two systems of anomalies yesterday and didn't make a lot of money" might certainly be true, but saying "I ran the top anomalies of a level five system and didn't make a lot of money" isn't. Could you give us the names of anomolies you consider high-end? I mean hell, I'll run some this weekend and total up the bounties and the time it takes to clear them. We have wiki entries on all of these and there are none that people consider worth running. Also, do these "high-end" anomolies require either billion-isk missionrunner specials or multiple people, and do you compare those to the things you can do with those setups that are much more profitable (exploration, ratting in several systems, ect). I mean, these have been around for years and everyone in 0.0 has considered them worthless the entire time. Everything else, even things initially thought of as not worth the time (escalations, for example), people eventually figured out how to make money on. Nobody's ever done that with encounters, and I can assure you it's not because they're not tried. Hell, I bet I can't even clear these high-end anomalies in a carrier fast enough to be worth my time (and that is a really really dumb idea). Originally by: Kernok are there chances of faction/officer/hauler spawns in anomalies or is that reserved for belts??? They can have a faction spawn something like 1/10th of the time and can escalate to a DED complex more rarely. But if you could do DED complexes you'd be exploring anyway since it's better money.

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