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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
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CCP Fallout
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Posted - 2009.11.18 14:42:00 -
[1]
CCP Abathur delves much deeper into the Sovereignty changes that are coming with our next expansion, EVE Online: Dominion, in his newest dev blog. Learn all about the inner workings of the new Infrastructure system in Dominion and the various factors surrounding them, and more!
Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us |
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.11.18 14:45:00 -
[2]
o rly now?
cool stuff
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.11.18 14:51:00 -
[3]
Mmm....
Secure 3rd party service |
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Franconis
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.18 14:51:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Franconis on 18/11/2009 14:51:34 Edit: 3rd!
I'm liking all of this so far, keep it up!
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Planateer
Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.11.18 14:54:00 -
[5]
4th, first page
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frsd
Caldari Fleet of Doom The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2009.11.18 14:56:00 -
[6]
5th in an awesome thread!
yay for cheaper outpost's Sharing is a nice gesture. Stupid but nice... |
Kanuo Ashkeron
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2009.11.18 14:58:00 -
[7]
One questions:
How are points towards the military and industrial indices actually counted?
Military: Is it based on Bounty, sig radius, or just kills?
Same with roids: Amount of ore or volume of ore mined in a system?
Thx, Kanuo
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RedClaws
Amarr Dragon's Rage
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:02:00 -
[8]
Edited by: RedClaws on 18/11/2009 15:02:56 Nice, improvements have been made since the last time.
Can we get some numbers on the new cost of outpost upgrades please?
Finding an empty anomoly might be a pain with a lot of people in the same system, is there any way to know or communicate reliably which are taken?
Edit: I noticed there was no mention of the anomolies being better once you upgrade , just more of them , is that still in?
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CCP Soundwave
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:05:00 -
[9]
Originally by: RedClaws Edited by: RedClaws on 18/11/2009 15:02:56 Nice, improvements have been made since the last time.
Can we get some numbers on the new cost of outpost upgrades please?
Finding an empty anomoly might be a pain with a lot of people in the same system, is there any way to know or communicate reliably which are taken?
Edit: I noticed there was no mention of the anomolies being better once you upgrade , just more of them , is that still in?
The anomalies available increase in quality with the upgrades. So at level five, you will have more and better anomalies available. There are some low level ones in there as well that can be done by relatively young players, so the benefits aren't restricted to older players.
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Kraken Kill
Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:08:00 -
[10]
When you said we are getting rid of sov levels what you ment were you are adding more sov levels? rite?
How is this different from the system we have now?
Only difference seems to be no sov 4 and a hub to spawn more cosmic annomalies if you pay billions for it. Rather than shooting towers you are shooting a station you cant ever hope to take due to the Supercarriers playing undock games repping the station. |
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Dianabolic
Reikoku
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:17:00 -
[11]
Soundwave dear boy, I have a question with regards your anomalies:
Have CCP done any number crunching as to how much isk would be generated through a fully upgraded system? 20 insta-spawning plex's sounds, to me, like an awful lot of cash flooding in to the system. Knowing just how much my corp alone could milk out of these I would not be surprised to see at least 500m PER DAY being milked out of these systems in pure bounties.
How is this going to affect the economy of EvE? Just running on "doily maths" this is going to lead to MASSIVE inflation, isn't it? Making the isk people do have, now, completely worthless within 100days when everyone becomes a billionaire from npc'ing?
Has any consideration been given to follow the drone region model, whereby you don't get any bounties (or certainly a vastly reduced one) but the meta-drop levels are increased dramatically? Or increased salvage? The cost of upgrading these systems to handle this look to be around ~1bn per month - using the above that's just two days of npc'ing for a corp, the rest going back in to empire to further inflate prices of *stuff*.
I sincerely do hope that some serious consideration has been given to this isk-tap because in all the notes I've seen for dominion there is nowhere near the kind of isk-sink that would be required to balance out such as HUGE influx of isk.
Thanks in advance of an answer that isn't an anomaly!
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Voight Kampf
OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:21:00 -
[12]
What in 0.0 should encourage empire players to come and try to get some space? This question were asked many times and still CCP nor this devblog (not to say about previous ones) didn't answer it.
So CCP Abathur is not fired? Let him answer in the "Test Server Feedback" forum, there are some questions about supercap changes.
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EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:21:00 -
[13]
Questions that have't been answered that need to be:
If you add a Level 5 Pirate magnet, are all pirate magnet anomolies increased to "top level", just the extra four, or some of them but not all?
Entrapment: Are these new DED complexes or the same 6/10,7/10,8/10, and 10/10? Will regions that only have some of those get the others - i.e. will Delve Entrapments only spawn 6/10's and 10/10's, or will a 7/10 and 8/10 be created?
Is Level 4/5 sov useful at all right now, or only in the future?
Is there still a plan to make any upgrades dependent on outpost upgrades or has that been junked?
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Retar Aveymone
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:22:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Have CCP done any number crunching as to how much isk would be generated through a fully upgraded system? 20 insta-spawning plex's sounds, to me, like an awful lot of cash flooding in to the system. Knowing just how much my corp alone could milk out of these I would not be surprised to see at least 500m PER DAY being milked out of these systems in pure bounties.
you can't upgrade empire or lowsec hth
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Nye Jaran
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:23:00 -
[15]
Fallout and Abathur, gotta say, the changes look good. I do have a question, though. It appears a system with maxxed strategic index and all associated upgrades will cost 1.17 billion ISK / month to maintain. As a member of a small corp hoping to partake in some of this new 0.0 goodness, I am concerned about the cost. It's low enough for us to partake in some 0.0 action. However, I worry the cost will be insignificant to the larger space-holding alliances, even when expanded across 10s of systems.
Has there been any thought towards implementing a mechanism to drive up the overall TCO in a non-linear fashion as the number of controlled systems increases?
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Moon Kitten
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:25:00 -
[16]
Dear CCP,
Since you are being intentionally vague about the isk/hour per player(individual profitability) for these upgrades when can we test these upgrades on the test server(sisi) and get some hard figures so we can compare it to level 4 missions?
Once we(the players) have some hard figures we can tell you whether or not people will want to move from Empire High Security Space to 0.0(nullsec) space for these upgrades.
If the risk and reward for individuals in 0.0 (nullsec) space is not balanced (compared to Empire High Sec and level 4 missions) in this expansion you will fail to accomplish your stated goal of getting more people to move to 0.0 (nullsec) space.
Kind regards,
Moon Kitten
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Layna Fraggs
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:27:00 -
[17]
And how much isk could the same players do in empire running l4's Dianabolic?
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Mookuh
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:27:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Mookuh on 18/11/2009 15:29:02 What about drone regions? I must admit I'm not too familiar with them, but are there even DED complexes in there?
And if there are, what will you find? Faction drone parts and BPCs? Same for anomalies... I know the drone commanders can drop T2 salvage (at least I think one we killed in lowsec once did so), but is thhat really all? Especially with "Salvage upgrades" on the horizon, this hardly sounds like it's worth getting the military upgrades to get.... moar faction drone parts!
If you're not going to introduce Rogue Drone ships for us to fly (though I still can't see why we can't have those... them 'not caring about money or politics' doesn't matter when you shoot them and take their stuff, as with commander spawns etc.), maybe introduce faction drone mods? You know, better drone range/tracking mods, drone speed enhancing mods, drone damage... Oh shi-!
Edit: Spelling
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Terry 'Mookuh' Hijakosji CAIN Public Relations |
Dierdra Vaal
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:27:00 -
[19]
I think these changes are pretty good. Sure maybe its not yet where we want to see the system end up, but this will be expanded in future patches and expansions.
20 anomalies + various profession sites and belts in a single system should be able to support a sizable population :) Director of Education :: EVE University Chairman of the CSM
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EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:28:00 -
[20]
Oh also, are these survey network sites from the usual sites that spawn in that constellation, new sites, or a set list of sites per region?
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Dianabolic
Reikoku
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:31:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Layna Fraggs And how much isk could the same players do in empire running l4's Dianabolic?
I have no idea, Layna, but if the rewards are 500m per day then I would also say those are broken - as I don't run them and have lived / do live in 0.0 I feel it appropriate to just comment on what I know and leave the rest to others.
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MILK Monk
Knights of the Silver Dawn Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:31:00 -
[22]
Edited by: MILK Monk on 18/11/2009 15:32:03 Question: How can one find out what kind of infrastructure upgrade is installed and what level is currently system updated to? __________________________________ I do it myyyy wayyyy... Milky Way. |
teji
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:31:00 -
[23]
Quote: The top level anomalies in terms of ISK per hour are among some of the most profitable content in the game.
Among the other most profitable content in the game is level 4's which don't decay if you go on vacation for a few days.
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EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:32:00 -
[24]
Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 18/11/2009 15:32:30
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Layna Fraggs And how much isk could the same players do in empire running l4's Dianabolic?
I have no idea, Layna, but if the rewards are 500m per day then I would also say those are broken - as I don't run them and have lived / do live in 0.0 I feel it appropriate to just comment on what I know and leave the rest to others.
"infinity million per day"
oh, and you live in 0.0? where, I don't see any IT stations on the map?
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Kanuo Ashkeron
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:32:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Nye Jaran ... I am concerned about the cost. It's low enough for us to partake in some 0.0 action.
Look at Diana¦s numbers and you know how feasible it should be. And your numbers are wrong, if you are actually a small corp you don¦t need a cyno jamming array and so your monthly cost are more like 600m isk not 1.2b isk.
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Slobodanka
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:33:00 -
[26]
About those cloaked bombers in my maxed system...
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Zaboth Garadath
Amarr No Limit Productions Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:35:00 -
[27]
Awesome job on balancing it since the last dev blog.
My only question is this:
Somewhere I saw a picture of the TCU, with the basic alliance logo dispayed on it. Does that mean that each alliance gets their own logo displayed on all their TCUs?
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Notitius Novos
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:35:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mookuh If you're not going to introduce Rogue Drone ships for us to fly (though I still can't see why we can't have those... them 'not caring about money or politics' doesn't matter when you shoot them and take their stuff, as with commander spawns etc
There's a good reason you can't fly Rogue drone ships - there are none. Those "Drone ships" you blow up ARE the drones, hence unavalibity of said ships.
Have you considered the effect this expansion could have on fledling alliances which lose members as they leave to seek membership in 0.0 corps + alliances?
Assuming the dev blog isn't a dev talking from his posterior it's a vast improvement over the last set of proposed changes. I'll still probably leave though as there's nothing truly revolutionary >.<
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Kerdrak
Big Guns Inc. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:35:00 -
[29]
Quote: These anomalies also have a percentage chance to spawn NPC faction commanders, as well as escalate to other dungeons.
Are this guys simple "domination/dread guristas" dudes or can be also "Tobias/Estamel et al." dudes? ________________________________________
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:36:00 -
[30]
20 top notch anomalies respawning instantly ... woah, I hope you have really crunched the numbers about that. Talk about inflation...
Is the degrading of the system indices linear or nonlinear? Do the indices degrade at constant speed or will they give you a small grace period if you aren't active for a couple of hours where they don't degrade and after that go down faster? Or all at the same constant speed?
Have you considered the influx of the immense amount of ore comming from those new, additional, mining sites? Especially what they will do to high-end mineral prices?
Will there be some management tools for alliances so that they can see at one glance which systems they own, the status of those systems, the individuals/corps listed which are responsible for increasing the various indices and a statistic about the top guy/corp resonsible for increasing those indices most?
And last but most important:
If those military and industrial upgrades are free in upkeep - why do we need to install them??? Wouldn't it be better if we can get rid of installing them and instead getting the space better automatically?
Also ... always good to see that CCP is listening to their playerbase. Yay!
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Dianabolic
Reikoku
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:37:00 -
[31]
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance oh, and you live in 0.0? where, I don't see any IT stations on the map?
Reading isn't your fortT, is it?
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DaemonBarber
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:38:00 -
[32]
Does your 'Strategic Index' reset to zero if Sov is lost and then recovered a day or two later, or does it degrade over time, the same as the others?
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EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:39:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance oh, and you live in 0.0? where, I don't see any IT stations on the map?
Reading isn't your fortT, is it?
"do live in 0.0" i get that you used to live in 0.0 thanks for the W-4 stations but you seemed to imply you still have space
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Fuujin
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:40:00 -
[34]
Originally by: DaemonBarber Does your 'Strategic Index' reset to zero if Sov is lost and then recovered a day or two later, or does it degrade over time, the same as the others?
If its based on time held, it's reset immediately on loss of sov, that is: TCU offlines/goes explodey.
Same as its present form (albeit tower-based).
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Dianabolic
Reikoku
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:42:00 -
[35]
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance oh, and you live in 0.0? where, I don't see any IT stations on the map?
Reading isn't your fortT, is it?
"do live in 0.0" i get that you used to live in 0.0 thanks for the W-4 stations but you seemed to imply you still have space
I'm sure there are threads where we could continue this conversation, I'm sure that I spend more time in 0.0 than in empire or low sec, I'm sure that it actually has no real value to THIS thread, however, so I won't be trouting it up.
I'd suggest you do the same, this is a thread to "fix" the game, as opposed to waving your e-willy around, isn't it?
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DaemonBarber
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:43:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Fuujin
Originally by: DaemonBarber Does your 'Strategic Index' reset to zero if Sov is lost and then recovered a day or two later, or does it degrade over time, the same as the others?
If its based on time held, it's reset immediately on loss of sov, that is: TCU offlines/goes explodey.
Same as its present form (albeit tower-based).
Do we know that, or do you think that? I haven't been on Sisi so I don't know, but I expect you're right.
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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:45:00 -
[37]
onehundredeighty million per month just for sov?!
**** it, get your carbides and sylramic fibers elsewhere - i'm not reacting that in 0.0 w/o sov-fuel-savings any time soon.
hf with climbing t2 ship prices - i'll join back in once armor plates hit 15k
yes, these sov costs will affect your t2 ship prices - putting the gist back into logistics |
Zardock
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:45:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Gnulpie Also ... always good to see that CCP is listening to their playerbase. Yay!
Danger! Danger! Put on your flame ******ant suit before the mothership people find you :)
But as per topic and blog, I share other's concerns on the profitability of these changes for two reasons.
If there is a new isk source as great as a small stack of deadspace 10/10 complexes with auto-respawning anomalies we'd notice a great inflation as almost any system could be upgraded to have those in 0.0 rather than the little handful there is now. This is not mentioning that if asteroid belts respawn every day with fresh roids high end minerals will probably crash and burn pretty quick.
Second and this is my game-breaker really, if everyone has a uber upgraded system to make tons of isk in, then what incentive is there to invade and take over other people's space? See people who are content with what they have will probably not make the effort to go to war (also usually applies to real life!)
Let's not turn EVE into an even bigger carebear fest :) |
EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:47:00 -
[39]
people who are worried about inflation have missed the trillion-isk/month (at least) isk sink that just got added to the game
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Dianabolic
Reikoku
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:47:00 -
[40]
Originally by: DaemonBarber
Originally by: Fuujin
Originally by: DaemonBarber Does your 'Strategic Index' reset to zero if Sov is lost and then recovered a day or two later, or does it degrade over time, the same as the others?
If its based on time held, it's reset immediately on loss of sov, that is: TCU offlines/goes explodey.
Same as its present form (albeit tower-based).
Do we know that, or do you think that? I haven't been on Sisi so I don't know, but I expect you're right.
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xttz
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:49:00 -
[41]
Edited by: xttz on 18/11/2009 15:55:07 Ok here goes
1. When a system is under attack and a hub is destroyed, progress is preserved by the defender not being able to anchor a new hub until SBUs are destroyed. How is progress preserved for outpost, and what stops the defender retaking and repairing it to gain extra reinforced timers?
2. Will there be any mechanic to build hubs and upgrades from smaller materials, or are players actually expected to haul scores of freighters in under a week just to keep their existing space?
3. Will the sov-based restrictions on starbases be lifted, such as the anchoring limit of 1/5 per day. 3a.Will starbases recieve any form of buff now they are now longer the focus of sov and will be used far less often? Capital ship proliferation since starbases were introduced makes them relatively weak in small numbers, and the starbase defense role is now marginalised. The current stront-based reinforce timer leaves industrial towers such as capital ship arrays hilariously vulnerable to impromptu kiting and constant job interruption.
4. Do you realise how much the recent mothership changes break sov mechanics? *sits a dozen motherships on an outpost* *repairs it* *docks after taking 50m damage* *repairs for free, resumes repping*
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EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:51:00 -
[42]
Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 18/11/2009 15:51:20
Originally by: xttz
1. When a system is under attack and a hub is destroyed, progress is preserved by the defender not being able to anchor a new hub until SBUs are destroyed. How is progress preserved for outpost, and what stops the defender retaking and repairing it to gain extra reinforced timers?
If you retake and repair it why wouldn't you just whack the SBU's, which are vulnerable as long as the outpost isn't reinforced?
edit: oh, hilarious mothership repairing/docking games
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:51:00 -
[43]
People who are worried about inflation should realise these anomalies arent significantly better than lvl 4 missions (not going to discuss how good exactly they are, but it isnt much more income for sure).
Now if CCP adds something that on top of the normal bounty pay out the sov holding corp receives also isk (infrastructure thingie of like 3% per level, so 15% max), then everyone would be happy.
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The Mittani
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:54:00 -
[44]
Abathur and Soundwave remain the competent sort of devs who you can trust to listen to feedback. Now if we can only pry Nozh off supercapitals, Dominion might actually work.
That said, having to haul 200 freighter-loads of crap from Empire in only one week during the grace period is terrible. If the size of hubs could be reduced a bit, or the grace period extended, that'd be nice. GS has a fairly compact little empire close to hisec, I shudder to think what far-flung alliances such as Atlas, AAA and the dronies will have to suffer through.
Therefore, emptyquotin xttz:
Quote: 1. When a system is under attack and a hub is destroyed, progress is preserved by the defender not being able to anchor a new hub until SBUs are destroyed. How is progress preserved for outpost, and what stops the defender retaking and repairing it to gain extra reinforced timers?
2. Will there be any mechanic to build hubs and upgrades from smaller materials, or are players actually expected to haul scores of freighters in under a week just to keep their existing space?
3. Will the sov-based restrictions on starbases be lifted, such as the anchoring limit of 1/5 per day. 3a.Will starbases recieve any form of buff now they are now longer the focus of sov and will be used far less often? Capital ship proliferation since starbases were introduced makes them relatively weak in small numbers, and the starbase defense role is now marginalised. The current stront-based reinforce timer leaves industrial towers such as capital ship arrays hilariously vulnerable to impromptu kiting and constant job interruption.
answer these plx~
Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
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Dave Meltdown
Capital Construction Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:54:00 -
[45]
Now all what need to be done is adjusting the anomalies a bit. Some are very bad and simple to do. Take a example to the sansha sanctum, thats a good one.
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Adam C
Rionnag Alba
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:57:00 -
[46]
Yea my question is Q: Why dont u guys let the art dept express itself more? Im starved for wallpapers n ****zle kthks
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EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:57:00 -
[47]
Seed hubs in outposts during the grace period please
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Dianabolic
Reikoku
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:57:00 -
[48]
Originally by: DaemonBarber
Originally by: Fuujin
Originally by: DaemonBarber Does your 'Strategic Index' reset to zero if Sov is lost and then recovered a day or two later, or does it degrade over time, the same as the others?
If its based on time held, it's reset immediately on loss of sov, that is: TCU offlines/goes explodey.
Same as its present form (albeit tower-based).
Do we know that, or do you think that? I haven't been on Sisi so I don't know, but I expect you're right.
It is stated in the blog:
Quote: Originally we considered allowing the I-Hub to be capturable but the more we discussed the idea the more we agreed that it would be a bad idea to allow an invader to capture a Hub and then be able to deploy a cyno jammer five minutes later. However, we did want to preserve a sense of "I want to take their stuff!" so what we've done is disconnect the activity-based indices from the Hub.
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Mookuh
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:58:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Notitius Novos There's a good reason you can't fly Rogue drone ships - there are none. Those "Drone ships" you blow up ARE the drones, hence unavalibity of said ships.
Well, you can find Rattlesnake BPCs in Guristas ships, for instance, and you did blow up the ship it was in, too.
Also, we've adapted technology from sleepers and used the salvage of sleeper drones to reverse engineer T3 ships, surely we can somehow interface with Rogue Drone tech in order to use their technology to fly improved droneboats? E.g. a Dominix with bonuses to Drone Damage/hitpoints, drone speed and drone control range. Or drone range/tracking.
All that aside, game world consistency takes a back seat in so many areas, why not here? And about those anomalies in Drone regions...
------------------------------------------------
Terry 'Mookuh' Hijakosji CAIN Public Relations |
Esna Pitoojee
Amarr TalCorp Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:59:00 -
[50]
Only thing that's not quite clear to me is what decides the strategic upgrade index.
Is it just time spent holding that system, or based on activity, like the other indexes?
If it is activity-based, how will the level be decided? All types of activity (i.e., exploring, mining, and combat) added together, or take the highest number? Can you raise your strategic index by having people jumping in and out, but not actually engaging in combat/mining/whatever in the system? ----------------------------------------------
Say "Amarr ships suk, lol." I dare you.
My statments do not represent the opinions, views, or actions of my corp. |
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Manfred Rickenbocker
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:00:00 -
[51]
Interesting observation: How will the DED complex spawns and anomalies scale to affect the drone regions? If the top complexes are supposed to be high-isk generation, does that mean more valuable compounds, or a need for bigger haulers to clean up the mess? Also, from my knowledge, there are no DED plexes for the drone regions which would render "Entrapment" upgrades useless. ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:00:00 -
[52]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: RedClaws Edited by: RedClaws on 18/11/2009 15:02:56 Nice, improvements have been made since the last time.
Can we get some numbers on the new cost of outpost upgrades please?
Finding an empty anomoly might be a pain with a lot of people in the same system, is there any way to know or communicate reliably which are taken?
Edit: I noticed there was no mention of the anomolies being better once you upgrade , just more of them , is that still in?
The anomalies available increase in quality with the upgrades. So at level five, you will have more and better anomalies available. There are some low level ones in there as well that can be done by relatively young players, so the benefits aren't restricted to older players.
Are you ****ing kidding or something you stupid idiot. Soffer i know you aren't this stupid shut the hell up. CA ****ing suck. Every single rat in a CA is worse then a belt rat, they have ****ty salvage, they have ****ty payout, they are instance and you can end up finding another person in one. CA ****ing suck as a mechanic and unless you are going to instance them the way missions are level 4 missions will always beat them in isk/time so fix it already.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:01:00 -
[53]
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance people who are worried about inflation have missed the trillion-isk/month (at least) isk sink that just got added to the game
What trillion isk / month??
It only needs 6 mil per day to claim sov, that is 180 mil per month. ALL the military and industrial upgrades are completely free.
So you have 20 super-highend anomalies 100% the time for just 180 mil. If am sure that each of those 20 anomalies give you at least 10 mil. So just running them ONCE you already paid sov costs for the whole month. All the remainig time is completely free and a pure isk source.
You goons always scream about the L4's. Okay, so how many good mission hubs exist? 5? 10? 20?
How many maxed out 0.0 systems could exist? 100? 1000?
Yeah, I think inflation is some concern and I would really like to know that CCP did their homework and did the number crunching. And I hope that the titan prediction ("there will exist only 5 or 6 titans ever because they are so uber expensive no one can afford them") is a mistake which wont happen again aka "there will be only 5 or 10 systems maxed out".
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EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:03:00 -
[54]
Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 18/11/2009 16:05:42 Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 18/11/2009 16:03:57
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance people who are worried about inflation have missed the trillion-isk/month (at least) isk sink that just got added to the game
What trillion isk / month??
It only needs 6 mil per day to claim sov, that is 180 mil per month. ALL the military and industrial upgrades are completely free.
So you have 20 super-highend anomalies 100% the time for just 180 mil. If am sure that each of those 20 anomalies give you at least 10 mil. So just running them ONCE you already paid sov costs for the whole month. All the remainig time is completely free and a pure isk source.
You goons always scream about the L4's. Okay, so how many good mission hubs exist? 5? 10? 20?
How many maxed out 0.0 systems could exist? 100? 1000?
Yeah, I think inflation is some concern and I would really like to know that CCP did their homework and did the number crunching. And I hope that the titan prediction ("there will exist only 5 or 6 titans ever because they are so uber expensive no one can afford them") is a mistake which wont happen again aka "there will be only 5 or 10 systems maxed out".
jump bridge systems are half a billion a month cynojammers three-quarters it's probably more like two trillion isk at a minimum
this is a gigantic ****ing isk sink that wan't there before and intelligent people are more worried about deflation than inflation
also mission hubs are inexhaustable and have no useability cap it doesn't matter how many there are while there's a hard limit on how many people can farm a level 5 0.0 system
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Khem Dahn
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:03:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Gnulpie 20 top notch anomalies respawning instantly ... woah, I hope you have really crunched the numbers about that. Talk about inflation...
So if 0.0 exploration is equal to or better than Level 4 mission running it will cause horrendous inflation that will kill Eve's economy. If 0.0 exploration isn't better than Level 4 mission running than it's pointless as no-one will leave their Empire cash cow.
Talk about a Catch-22.
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Dianabolic
Reikoku
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:03:00 -
[56]
Originally by: The Mittani That said, having to haul 200 freighter-loads of crap from Empire in only one week during the grace period is terrible. If the size of hubs could be reduced a bit, or the grace period extended, that'd be nice. GS has a fairly compact little empire close to hisec, I shudder to think what far-flung alliances such as Atlas, AAA and the dronies will have to suffer through.
Serves you right :p
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Jove
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:05:00 -
[57]
Stop whining about Hub size.
One of the stated goals of Dominion is to get more people into 0.0. That means people currently holding space are going to have to let go of some of it. Which means you won't need to haul quite so many freighters full of crap.
Also Mittani, there's over 5000 people in GS, I expect you probably own enough freighters to do it all in one go if you really wanted.
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EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:07:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Jove Stop whining about Hub size.
One of the stated goals of Dominion is to get more people into 0.0. That means people currently holding space are going to have to let go of some of it. Which means you won't need to haul quite so many freighters full of crap.
Also Mittani, there's over 5000 people in GS, I expect you probably own enough freighters to do it all in one go if you really wanted.
yes let's tell all 5000 of our members when we plan to send giant space pinatas through the few empire-goonspace chokepoints, it's not like we have a spy problem or anything
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Isaac Starstriker
Amarr The Confederate Navy Forever Unbound
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:09:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 18/11/2009 16:10:47
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: RedClaws Edited by: RedClaws on 18/11/2009 15:02:56 Nice, improvements have been made since the last time.
Can we get some numbers on the new cost of outpost upgrades please?
Finding an empty anomoly might be a pain with a lot of people in the same system, is there any way to know or communicate reliably which are taken?
Edit: I noticed there was no mention of the anomolies being better once you upgrade , just more of them , is that still in?
The anomalies available increase in quality with the upgrades. So at level five, you will have more and better anomalies available. There are some low level ones in there as well that can be done by relatively young players, so the benefits aren't restricted to older players.
Are you ****ing kidding or something you stupid idiot. Soffer i know you aren't this stupid shut the hell up. CA ****ing suck. Every single rat in a CA is worse then a belt rat, they have ****ty salvage, they have ****ty payout, they are instance and you can end up finding another person in one. CA ****ing suck as a mechanic and unless you are going to instance them the way missions are level 4 missions will always beat them in isk/time so fix it already.
I did an anomaly on Si-Si in the Catch region with a buddy. I made many times more isk doing that anomaly than I ever did ratting belts that are so effed up due to imbeciles. isk/hr is higher, considering it was with help. Is it higher than lvl 4s? Probably not, but a lot of players don't give a crap about isk/hour. If people are overly concerned with isk/hr, guess what, nothing is going to incite them to come to 0.0. Unless you move concord in.
Also, you people are hilarious. First, its not enough isk, now, its isk INFLATION!!! Are you ever going to quit complaining? Give it a rest.
These changes are great and really, I am quite pleased with it. The fact that grav sites are on par (or close to it) with Wormholes is insanely good.
Thank you very much CCP for continuing to listen.
--Isaac Signature is now under construction: check back in a couple weeks.
AMAAR VICTOR!
"You just can't fix stupid"
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Fuujin
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:10:00 -
[60]
Moreover, I think Mittens wasn't too worried about us, but rather the alliances in the ass end of space. But hey, not my problem if they get shafted, right?
First week of december is going to be hilarious.
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DaemonBarber
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:11:00 -
[61]
Wasn't one of the big advantages of the new probing system that it couldn't be easily run with macros?
As much as I like the idea of 20 easy to run isk factories, I don't like the idea of a team of macroers doing the same. Is it so bad to have to actually scan for these?
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Jove
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:12:00 -
[62]
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance
yes let's tell all 5000 of our members when we plan to send giant space pinatas through the few empire-goonspace chokepoints, it's not like we have a spy problem or anything
You fail at EVE. The point is obviously that man power is not the limiting factor in GS. I mean seriously, legion of xxdeath have almost as many systems as GS but less than 1/5th the members, and they live in the drone lands of all places. How miserable do you think their job is going to be?
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CCP Soundwave
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:12:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Dianabolic Soundwave dear boy, I have a question with regards your anomalies:
Have CCP done any number crunching as to how much isk would be generated through a fully upgraded system? 20 insta-spawning plex's sounds, to me, like an awful lot of cash flooding in to the system. Knowing just how much my corp alone could milk out of these I would not be surprised to see at least 500m PER DAY being milked out of these systems in pure bounties.
How is this going to affect the economy of EvE? Just running on "doily maths" this is going to lead to MASSIVE inflation, isn't it? Making the isk people do have, now, completely worthless within 100days when everyone becomes a billionaire from npc'ing?
Has any consideration been given to follow the drone region model, whereby you don't get any bounties (or certainly a vastly reduced one) but the meta-drop levels are increased dramatically? Or increased salvage? The cost of upgrading these systems to handle this look to be around ~1bn per month - using the above that's just two days of npc'ing for a corp, the rest going back in to empire to further inflate prices of *stuff*.
I sincerely do hope that some serious consideration has been given to this isk-tap because in all the notes I've seen for dominion there is nowhere near the kind of isk-sink that would be required to balance out such as HUGE influx of isk.
Thanks in advance of an answer that isn't an anomaly!
Yep, we've definitely looked at all of this. I'm not a big fan of the drone region model where the reward is loot based, because it will usually end up being a competing feature. Today for example, mining is not as profitable as it could be, in parts because of the drone regions, which further weakens players ability to support themselves in 0.0.
Deciding on a cash based reward is in part because we've settled on what other moneymaking features we want to be competing with. Ideally, people who run missions in empire for cash, while living/wanting to live in 0.0 will hopefully see this as a viable alternative. Ratting is a very limited resources, mining isn't as profitable as I'd like it to be, and running missions takes you into some areas where the population isn't always friendly. Hopefully this will let people who want to grind for isk do so, in a relatively friendly environment.
In terms of rewards, it shouldn't pump an amount of money into the system that is bad for EVEs economy compared to other moneymaking activities. The anomaly content is accessible by selecting this over another similar activity.
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Ezekialous
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:13:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Zardock
Second and this is my game-breaker really, if everyone has a uber upgraded system to make tons of isk in, then what incentive is there to invade and take over other people's space? See people who are content with what they have will probably not make the effort to go to war (also usually applies to real life!)
Instead of fighting to make you feel supieror, you fight to expanded your empire and your influence in the game of eve. More people that join your alliance, the more you will need to expand. I think these changes will see more border conflict and less North vs South.
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Melissa Coldstorm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:15:00 -
[65]
Is there a still a fuel bonus for POS in systems you hold Sov in?
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xttz
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:16:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance people who are worried about inflation have missed the trillion-isk/month (at least) isk sink that just got added to the game
What trillion isk / month?? ....
How many maxed out 0.0 systems could exist? 100? 1000?
There are currently: 3524 Conquerable systems 2204 Systems with sov between 1 and 4 397 Conquerable stations 82 Sov 4 capital stations
If every system with sov currently claimed was carried over without upgrades into Dominion, its a 528b/year isk sink. If every conq station was fully upgraded, its a 467bn isk sink plus around 1-2bn per system for all hubs and upgrades required. Now throw in all the Hubs, upgrades TCUs and BCUs that will be bought and lost as territory is invaded and conqured.
If anything 1 trillion is too small an estimate.
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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:19:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 18/11/2009 16:20:59
Originally by: Melissa Coldstorm Is there a still a fuel bonus for POS in systems you hold Sov in?
was answered in the previous... "debate" - yes, the good ole' 25% reduction - just that it costs you 180mil/month now the break-even should occur somewhere around 5 large reaction towers before paying off - putting the gist back into logistics |
ropnes
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:21:00 -
[68]
Edited by: ropnes on 18/11/2009 16:24:58 I don't think there's nearly enough incentive for conquering other people's space
Also: I think there should be an expensive upgrade that adds local Non-sov systems should have delayed local
Would be a good compromise IMO
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adriaans
Amarr Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:24:00 -
[69]
Looks good, my alliance shall once again look for opportunities now
btw, how large are those things you need to anchor etc? if we need a freighter to move the stuff... the plans are off again -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze crystals for Amarr!
Originally by: UMEE if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail.
QFT! |
EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:24:00 -
[70]
Originally by: adriaans Looks good, my alliance shall once again look for opportunities now
btw, how large are those things you need to anchor etc? if we need a freighter to move the stuff... the plans are off again
I have some bad news for you.
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EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:26:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Jove
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance
yes let's tell all 5000 of our members when we plan to send giant space pinatas through the few empire-goonspace chokepoints, it's not like we have a spy problem or anything
You fail at EVE. The point is obviously that man power is not the limiting factor in GS. I mean seriously, legion of xxdeath have almost as many systems as GS but less than 1/5th the members, and they live in the drone lands of all places. How miserable do you think their job is going to be?
interestingly mittens raised that exact point...in a post you replied to no less! wonder where you got it from
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Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:27:00 -
[72]
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance
Originally by: Jove Stop whining about Hub size.
One of the stated goals of Dominion is to get more people into 0.0. That means people currently holding space are going to have to let go of some of it. Which means you won't need to haul quite so many freighters full of crap.
Also Mittani, there's over 5000 people in GS, I expect you probably own enough freighters to do it all in one go if you really wanted.
yes let's tell all 5000 of our members when we plan to send giant space pinatas through the few empire-goonspace chokepoints, it's not like we have a spy problem or anything
Assemble Deathstar in Empire bordering lowsec system Lockdown entry point Have multiple rapiers waiting to web incoming freighters Freighters warp to Deathstar where Titan awaits Bridge chain activated ??? Profit!
Logistics isn't hard, especially with the assets at Goonswarms disposal.
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BanzaiJoe
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:27:00 -
[73]
I still don't understand why maintenance is "isk into the ether". I stick isk into a machine in space and it works... weak.
My suggestion is to convert the isk plan into resources that already exist in the game. There are a variety of materials already seeded. Convert the isk bill to 90% of cost of seeded for risk / time-energy to buy in empire and move to 0.0
A couple things come of this
Pros ++ The absurdity of putting isk into a virtual account to keep an object in space kept up is gone.
++ Those that live deep in 0.0 with a region or two between them and low-sec will have some weakness whereas now they can sit deep and earn fat loot (Dominion style).
+ Seeded objects can have a market based on distance
+ Can be varied in accordance with structure e.g. valuable structure requires item that does not cost much but has large volume requiring corp to work together to get item and earn value of space
+/- Corps supply lines will need to carry new items - Corp supply lines already exist
- It's close to Dominion release
- Requires testing/ feedback
- ???
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John Zorg
Caldari The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:28:00 -
[74]
Nice Blog, looks to be well thought out. Good job CCP. Could you now please fix the Motherships :)
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Dianabolic
Reikoku
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:29:00 -
[75]
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 18/11/2009 16:03:57
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance people who are worried about inflation have missed the trillion-isk/month (at least) isk sink that just got added to the game
What trillion isk / month??
It only needs 6 mil per day to claim sov, that is 180 mil per month. ALL the military and industrial upgrades are completely free.
So you have 20 super-highend anomalies 100% the time for just 180 mil. If am sure that each of those 20 anomalies give you at least 10 mil. So just running them ONCE you already paid sov costs for the whole month. All the remainig time is completely free and a pure isk source.
You goons always scream about the L4's. Okay, so how many good mission hubs exist? 5? 10? 20?
How many maxed out 0.0 systems could exist? 100? 1000?
Yeah, I think inflation is some concern and I would really like to know that CCP did their homework and did the number crunching. And I hope that the titan prediction ("there will exist only 5 or 6 titans ever because they are so uber expensive no one can afford them") is a mistake which wont happen again aka "there will be only 5 or 10 systems maxed out".
jump bridge systems are half a billion a month cynojammers three-quarters it's probably more like two trillion isk at a minimum
this is a gigantic ****ing isk sink that wan't there before and intelligent people were more worried about deflation than inflation
also mission hubs are inexhaustable it doesn't matter how many there are
IF you jam them all.
Which you won't.
You cannot attribute what you hold "now" to the calculations of what you're going to hold "after" dominion.
You won't have a bridge route that goes to every station, nor will you jam EVERY system.
And even if we take your numbers, 1tn goes out... yet at least TREBLE that is coming in.
It's a net influx, which causes inflation.
Lots of it.
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Fuujin
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:31:00 -
[76]
Originally by: BanzaiJoe I still don't understand why maintenance is "isk into the ether". I stick isk into a machine in space and it works... weak.
My suggestion is to convert the isk plan into resources that already exist in the game. There are a variety of materials already seeded. Convert the isk bill to 90% of cost of seeded for risk / time-energy to buy in empire and move to 0.0
A couple things come of this
Pros ++ The absurdity of putting isk into a virtual account to keep an object in space kept up is gone.
++ Those that live deep in 0.0 with a region or two between them and low-sec will have some weakness whereas now they can sit deep and earn fat loot (Dominion style).
+ Seeded objects can have a market based on distance
+ Can be varied in accordance with structure e.g. valuable structure requires item that does not cost much but has large volume requiring corp to work together to get item and earn value of space
+/- Corps supply lines will need to carry new items - Corp supply lines already exist
- It's close to Dominion release
- Requires testing/ feedback
- ???
Protip: if your game requires you to work it like a job just so your internet spaceship alliance can hold virtual land, its a bad system.
One of the big reasons they shifted TO a pure ISK model is to cut out the soul-crushing logistics requirements. A supply chain is still required to fuel jump bridge/jammer/mining/etc towers, but thankfully the need to fuel several hundred towers to hold a region or two of space is gone.
Try it before you eagerly run back to it like an abused spouse.
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Dianabolic
Reikoku
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:34:00 -
[77]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave Yep, we've definitely looked at all of this. I'm not a big fan of the drone region model where the reward is loot based, because it will usually end up being a competing feature. Today for example, mining is not as profitable as it could be, in parts because of the drone regions, which further weakens players ability to support themselves in 0.0.
Deciding on a cash based reward is in part because we've settled on what other moneymaking features we want to be competing with. Ideally, people who run missions in empire for cash, while living/wanting to live in 0.0 will hopefully see this as a viable alternative. Ratting is a very limited resources, mining isn't as profitable as I'd like it to be, and running missions takes you into some areas where the population isn't always friendly. Hopefully this will let people who want to grind for isk do so, in a relatively friendly environment.
In terms of rewards, it shouldn't pump an amount of money into the system that is bad for EVEs economy compared to other moneymaking activities. The anomaly content is accessible by selecting this over another similar activity.
Thanks for the answer, I hadn't considered it in that way - the limiting factor being that regardless of how many systems you upgrade it just means that people choose anomaly over lvl4 over mining - the limiting factor is in fact active accounts / players themselves.
Will you be running a "Power of two" offer any time soon?
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EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:38:00 -
[78]
Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 18/11/2009 16:44:48
Originally by: Dianabolic
IF you jam them all.
Which you won't.
You cannot attribute what you hold "now" to the calculations of what you're going to hold "after" dominion.
You won't have a bridge route that goes to every station, nor will you jam EVERY system.
And even if we take your numbers, 1tn goes out... yet at least TREBLE that is coming in.
It's a net influx, which causes inflation.
Lots of it.
have you heard of my friends "ratting" and "mission running" the two things most replaceable by these CA's if they actually work, what exactly is it you think they do w/r/t isk
sums of money are being taken out of the economy at unprecedented levels, and the eve economy hasn't yet crumbled from the inexhaustable isk sink of level4's without any isk sink, and it won't crumble from the added isk coming in that is more than counteracted by isk being taken out
your assumption is that every isk generated by these CA's wouldn't have been generated otherwise which is clearly incorrect as the people would have been ratting otherwise, the only relevant amount for inflation fears is the amount this generates over ratting
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Morgan Versailles
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:40:00 -
[79]
Originally by: BanzaiJoe I still don't understand why maintenance is "isk into the ether". I stick isk into a machine in space and it works... weak.
My suggestion is to convert the isk plan into resources that already exist in the game...
I agree with you on this. Would it be beneficial to EVE to make the resources needed for maintenance the mining resources to give them more value (demand) and make mining more profitable?
I don't know much about mining, so I wouldn't know.
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Draco Argen
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:40:00 -
[80]
This looks good. The statement or changes to making anom's "some of the most profitable content in the game" is excellent. As this means the most profitable place is in the most dynamic part of the game. If you are looking for emergence, this is the way to do it. I don't think any of us really know how this is going to evolve, but this is a good way of letting the game/gamers decide.
Mining Also kudos to the mining sites being "mythical beasts". This should encourage the magpie like miners to risk themselves more in 0.0 combat zones for the reward. I'm not a miner, but WH roid belts were tasty to even my eyes.
Sov Cost The costs before were too high, I agree. However I do fear they have bounced to too low. But what this does do is allow assimilation of the new techniques for large alliance. I hope CCP will monitor the bank accounts of the biggest alliance and actively tweak the costs as time goes by. Doing things the other way round (too expensive and reduce costs later) would cause irreparable damage to the sov map and players investment.
The high cost of Cyno jammers should mean "capital/central" systems will likely be protected but peripheral less important ones being the war grounds of the cap ships and territory. Perhaps not. But it will make strategic placement of Cyno jammers more of a cerebral tactical decision and fun imo.
We are also in for an economic roller coaster as Ice demand either drops or wabbles. Loot floods markets, T2 base materials resettle and mins rarity Fluxuates with all the new changes.
Scaling sov cost vanished I think I understand why there is no scaling cost for number of systems. As much as I thought it was a good idea. If CCP sets a scale, they ultimately determine the optimal territory size of any given Alliance (its more complicated than this, but it would be the ultimate result). The best comparison is the Outpost upgrades scale. We just don't use the latter ones at all, too expensive. They would be prescribing how we play. This way its a simple = more straight line graph.
Sov battles This isn't the perfect place but I just wanted to say the Sov battle mechanic looks great with the tweaked times. 3 hours battle per gate or in parallel (Blockades) sounds like an epic weekend. As opposed to a mind F--- marathon with 12 hours proposed way back. As well as their suggested price (cost of a large tower was mentioned elsewhere) means there less likely to be spammed.
I can't wait to see how the landscape shapes. The number of gates per system will be the equivalent of hills and terrain. The true sov the fertility of the ground and the new indexes the cities farms and buildings.
Sun Tzu has never been more applicable :D
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:40:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Jove Stop whining about Hub size.
One of the stated goals of Dominion is to get more people into 0.0. That means people currently holding space are going to have to let go of some of it. Which means you won't need to haul quite so many freighters full of crap.
Problem is that we'll go for the low-hanging fruit, and most likely abandon the space that is the biggest pain in the ass to get to. If (say) ATLAS consolidate into Detorid and abandon Omist, then any new group trying to take Omist for themselves not only has to move all their combat ships down to the fight, they have to make large numbers of freighter runs through hostile territory just to get sovereignty claims set up. That's not going to do anything to encourage new alliances to take part in 0.0, is it.
Quote: Also Mittani, there's over 5000 people in GS, I expect you probably own enough freighters to do it all in one go if you really wanted.
Again, its hardly a problem for the large established superpower alliances, but how about the small upcoming groups that CCP explicitly said they wanted to see in 0.0 with this expansion? Is a regular freighter escort op through 40 jumps of hostile space (I've been on a couple of these back in the days before jump bridges and titan portals and they're best described as 'mind numbing tedium') the way to encourage them out?
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Eclats de verre
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:43:00 -
[82]
-Won't the new sov system remove most of the demand for ice products? -Isn't this system moving from requiring alliances to mine/trade for ice products to just getting enough isk to make it work (NPC sold trade goods equals paying Isk, so for this part it's the same)? -I'm really not a fan of POS refuelling and even less when there are tons of them of refuel, but still, a change as big will cause havoc to ice mining profitability, won't it? -So you're offering the alliances to reduce the logistic side, increase the ratting/mining/exploration in the system (generating corp/refining tax) which will pay for the new sov costs? -Is it designed for the alliances to be more self sufficient in their space and have to import less goods (which meant exporting ISK and rare items in exchange)?
May we get some answers about such possible economic impact (with numbers and graphs, we love them) from our favorite economist Dr. Eyj=lfur Gu=mundsson?
There must be a lot of other stuff I didn't think about in terms of economic impact... -- Fanfest memories : I looked in your eyes And I found the galaxy Now I'm stuck in eve.
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Sellmewarez
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:45:00 -
[83]
First of all, thanks CCP for listening to us all.
These changes are definately a step in the right direction. Its still not perfect by any stretch and theres a few things that don't appear to quite add up but at least its more of a solid base to work from.
This of course can be changed based on feedback and testing in the future, which at least we know is happening now
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:45:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 18/11/2009 16:10:47
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: RedClaws Edited by: RedClaws on 18/11/2009 15:02:56 Nice, improvements have been made since the last time.
Can we get some numbers on the new cost of outpost upgrades please?
Finding an empty anomoly might be a pain with a lot of people in the same system, is there any way to know or communicate reliably which are taken?
Edit: I noticed there was no mention of the anomolies being better once you upgrade , just more of them , is that still in?
The anomalies available increase in quality with the upgrades. So at level five, you will have more and better anomalies available. There are some low level ones in there as well that can be done by relatively young players, so the benefits aren't restricted to older players.
Are you ****ing kidding or something you stupid idiot. Soffer i know you aren't this stupid shut the hell up. CA ****ing suck. Every single rat in a CA is worse then a belt rat, they have ****ty salvage, they have ****ty payout, they are instance and you can end up finding another person in one. CA ****ing suck as a mechanic and unless you are going to instance them the way missions are level 4 missions will always beat them in isk/time so fix it already.
I did an anomaly on Si-Si in the Catch region with a buddy. I made many times more isk doing that anomaly than I ever did ratting belts that are so effed up due to imbeciles. isk/hr is higher, considering it was with help. Is it higher than lvl 4s? Probably not, but a lot of players don't give a crap about isk/hour. If people are overly concerned with isk/hr, guess what, nothing is going to incite them to come to 0.0. Unless you move concord in.
Also, you people are hilarious. First, its not enough isk, now, its isk INFLATION!!! Are you ever going to quit complaining? Give it a rest.
These changes are great and really, I am quite pleased with it. The fact that grav sites are on par (or close to it) with Wormholes is insanely good.
Thank you very much CCP for continuing to listen.
--Isaac
See you dont even understand all the problems associated with an easily scan down able site that anyone can enter that isn't gated in 0.0 not that i would expect you too not being in a 0.0 corp or ever living in 0.0 for an extended period of time. Go back to empire and get out and leave 0.0 to the real players.
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Lord Saradomin
Gallente Nex Exercitus IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:46:00 -
[85]
You have changed the random reinforcement timers from 4 hours to only 2 hours...
How are you thinking this is going to change "timezone" wars which you said you wanted to remove?
The anchoring reduction is welcome but the reinforcement timers should have gone from 4 hours either way to 8 hours if not 12.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:47:00 -
[86]
Originally by: xttz
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance people who are worried about inflation have missed the trillion-isk/month (at least) isk sink that just got added to the game
What trillion isk / month?? ....
How many maxed out 0.0 systems could exist? 100? 1000?
There are currently: 2204 Systems with sov between 1 and 4
If every system with sov currently claimed was carried over without upgrades into Dominion, its a 528b/year isk sink. If every conq station was fully upgraded, its a 467bn isk sink plus around 1-2bn per system for all hubs and upgrades required. Now throw in all the Hubs, upgrades TCUs and BCUs that will be bought and lost as territory is invaded and conqured.
If anything 1 trillion is too small an estimate.
Let's assume all those 2204 systems would be upgraded to the max.
Then the upkeep costs would be: 39 mil upkeep per day * 2204 systems * 30 days = 2579 billion isk upkeep per month
Now if we assume also that 1/20 of the systems have military index 5, if we assume that one anomaly takes 1 hour and that all anomalies could be occupied 50% of the time and that each of those high-end anomalies pay 10 mil in bounty, then we will have an _additional_ income from those anomalies alone: 110 systems * 20 anomalies * 23 anomaly respawns/day * 0.50 occupancy * 10 mil per anomaly * 30 days = 7590 billion isk income per month
So, you have 2579 billion additional costs due to upkeep. But you have 7590 billion income from those anomalies. That makes a net additional income after Dominion of 5.01 TRILLION isk per month.
Now please explain me, where is that deflation?
And my assumptions are pretty conservative: only 5% of the systems maxed out, only 50% coverage of the anomalies, only 10 mil income for each anomaly, up to one hour time to run one anomaly, and ALL current sov systems also claimed and max upgraded after Dominion. Also I didn't consider the non-maxed systems.
If 20% systems are maxed, 66% coverage of the anomalies, 15 mil income and 45 minutes time for each anomaly, then you would have an income from those anomalies of 80 trillion per month compared to 2.6 trillion expanses due to upkeep. That are 960 trillion in one year. I think that this is a pretty large sum and IS significant for the economy.
A word from CCP might be nice here.
How many systems do you expect to have a maxed out military index? How many systems do you think SHOULD be maxed out?
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The Mittani
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:47:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Fuujin Moreover, I think Mittens wasn't too worried about us, but rather the alliances in the ass end of space. But hey, not my problem if they get shafted, right?
First week of december is going to be hilarious.
yeah, i thought my post was p. clear, delve is right by multiple empire hubs and laughably easy to resupply
god forbid we still lived in feythabolis or detorid, right now our logistics dudes are less than 10 realspace gates from two major hubs.
i was pouring out a 40 for the poor logistics dudes of atlas/aaa/xix/etc, talk about a nightmare
Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
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Lost0ne
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:58:00 -
[88]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Yep, we've definitely looked at all of this. I'm not a big fan of the drone region model where the reward is loot based, because it will usually end up being a competing feature. Today for example, mining is not as profitable as it could be, in parts because of the drone regions, which further weakens players ability to support themselves in 0.0.
If this is true are you dong anything to fix the Drone regions then?
It seems to me the best way to fix the drone regions is to leave the belt rats alone but seed 'other' faction anomalies instead of just drone anomalies. Right now Drone regions have no DED complex's, no officer spawn, no faction loot. Seems a simple and elegant fix for a major regional problem.
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CCP Soundwave
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:58:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 18/11/2009 16:10:47
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
The anomalies available increase in quality with the upgrades. So at level five, you will have more and better anomalies available. There are some low level ones in there as well that can be done by relatively young players, so the benefits aren't restricted to older players.
Are you ****ing kidding or something you stupid idiot. Soffer i know you aren't this stupid shut the hell up. CA ****ing suck. Every single rat in a CA is worse then a belt rat, they have ****ty salvage, they have ****ty payout, they are instance and you can end up finding another person in one. CA ****ing suck as a mechanic and unless you are going to instance them the way missions are level 4 missions will always beat them in isk/time so fix it already.
I did an anomaly on Si-Si in the Catch region with a buddy. I made many times more isk doing that anomaly than I ever did ratting belts that are so effed up due to imbeciles. isk/hr is higher, considering it was with help. Is it higher than lvl 4s? Probably not, but a lot of players don't give a crap about isk/hour. If people are overly concerned with isk/hr, guess what, nothing is going to incite them to come to 0.0. Unless you move concord in.
Also, you people are hilarious. First, its not enough isk, now, its isk INFLATION!!! Are you ever going to quit complaining? Give it a rest.
These changes are great and really, I am quite pleased with it. The fact that grav sites are on par (or close to it) with Wormholes is insanely good.
Thank you very much CCP for continuing to listen.
--Isaac
See you dont even understand all the problems associated with an easily scan down able site that anyone can enter that isn't gated in 0.0 not that i would expect you too not being in a 0.0 corp or ever living in 0.0 for an extended period of time. Go back to empire and get out and leave 0.0 to the real players.
It's a massive misconception that anomalies are not profitable. As said before, the top ones (which you'll have permanently available through the top tier upgrades) isk for isk match the most profitable missions, and certainly blow ratting out of the water.
Added to that, we're looking at more ways to improve on the planned content, hopefully building on the foundation we're laying now.
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:59:00 -
[90]
there should be at least 1 month of leeway time before any of this dominion sov **** is turned on anyways it doesn't even work properly on sisi still
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:01:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 18/11/2009 17:01:40 You know exactly what the biggest contributors to cheap t1 minerals is but yet your totally unwilling to take any action even though it would probably solve a whole lot of issues.
As for the changes, they are a step in the right direction. All those of you complaining about inflation are missing the point completely. ____ Minmatar ship fixes... |
Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:03:00 -
[92]
it's also a massive misconception that there will be any less towers in dominion (see racial armor plates) which was your reasoning for these (high) sov costs, wasn't it? undo plz - putting the gist back into logistics |
Pwnzorator
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:04:00 -
[93]
I'm rather concerned by the addition of more downtime based mechanics.
Quote: Ore Prospecting Arrays
These sites will re-spawn every downtime, so even if you do not mine out every rock, there will be fresh ones waiting for you the next day.
So 0.0 systems with outposts will be mined out of the king arkonor etc. shortly after downtime.
Quote: Entrapment
Upon completion of running the site, there is the possibility of finding another one (no waiting until next downtime).
This insinuates that unless you hit the respawn possibility, your next spawn chance is downtime.
I thought that we'd seen dev posts in the past saying we wouldn't see any new mechanics based on downtime, as they're unfair. Some of us live in timezones where downtime is during work hours, or in the middle of the night, and don't get a chance to exploit these resources
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The Mittani
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:05:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider it's also a massive misconception that there will be any less towers in dominion (see racial armor plates) which was your reasoning for these (high) sov costs, wasn't it? undo plz
i don't know about what alliance 'vanishing point.' is in but most nullsec alliances have a crapload of towers that exist purely to hold sov that will vanish on dec 1st, hth!
Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:06:00 -
[95]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
It's a massive misconception that anomalies are not profitable. As said before, the top ones (which you'll have permanently available through the top tier upgrades) isk for isk match the most profitable missions, and certainly blow ratting out of the water.
Added to that, we're looking at more ways to improve on the planned content, hopefully building on the foundation we're laying now.
I've ran about 30 CA's over the years and every single of one them was about 1/3 as useful as running a level 4 mission and took about the same amount of time. They are useless pointless, unsafe ,****ty and totally random as to what you get out of them. If you understood just how ****ing bad they were compared to a mission you might care but your sitting up in your ivory tower now that you work for ccp. But hey its not like our opinion or practical experince make any difference you idiots are CCP makes all the decision like CCP Nohz and ****ing over ships are a wim just because you can.
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teji
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:06:00 -
[96]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave It's a massive misconception that anomalies are not profitable.
They most certainly aren't profitable on TQ. That is no misconception. It looks like you have changed them on SiSi so we'll see how you've done in making them actually competitive to other activities.
Quote: As said before, the top ones (which you'll have permanently available through the top tier upgrades) isk for isk match the most profitable missions, and certainly blow ratting out of the water.
Oh, ok so there still isn't any reason to not do level 4 missions in empire instead of grinding for standings which decay if you go on vacation for a few days. Imagine the outrage if your empire standings decayed if you didn't log on for a few days. That would be pretty funny.
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xttz
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:08:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Gnulpie 80 trillion per month
You can't assume anything about increased anomaly inflation without knowing how much ISK comes in from current ratting and missions. Despite what CCP hopes, Dominion isn't going to double the number of players overnight. Anyone using the new anomalies will be someone who was ratting or running level 4's formerly. This also ignores how many people will move over to upgraded mining, salvage or more wormhole missions from their upgrades - none of which cause inflation.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:08:00 -
[98]
Originally by: The Mittani That said, having to haul 200 freighter-loads of crap from Empire in only one week during the grace period is terrible. If the size of hubs could be reduced a bit, or the grace period extended, that'd be nice. GS has a fairly compact little empire close to hisec, I shudder to think what far-flung alliances such as Atlas, AAA and the dronies will have to suffer through.
Why would you want to have 200 I-Hubs? Are you perhaps planning on migrating the whole EVE population to your territory to fulfill some kind of uber-carebear fantasy?
You're only going to need some 40-60 of them at most.
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Sloth Arnini
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:10:00 -
[99]
Because I'm a reasonable person and don't just rage about changes simply because my alliance demands, I want to say that I am happier with Dominion than I was when the first blog on upgrades and costs was released.
I remain concerned about the likelihood of increased complex spawns flooding the market with deadspace loot, however. I have only one character capable of making money in 0.0 which means that if I find a big complex, I need backup from other players to complete it. In other words, I do not have the characters to dual box a plex. This also means (being a conscientious individual who doesn't want to rip off his alliance/corpmates) I have to share the revenue from a pimp drop.
Say I completed a 10/10 with three other people. Yes, they can probably be dual boxed by people who already have pimped out Navy Ravens, but that's by the by. I do not have a pimped out Navy Raven and cannot afford to get one. Now today, I might get an X-Type mod worth 1 billion isk. Shared out between 4 people, that's 250 mill each, which pays for quite a lot. In Dominion, that mod might be worth half that or less, with a corresponding reduction in the take home cut. But the diffiuclty of the complex is unchanged.
It is good to have luxuries in games. The chance to make that big score is a big motivator to plug away at ratting and exploration, which gets boring fast. Dilute or take that away, and making money becomes even more of a chore than it currently is.
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Wu Phat
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:10:00 -
[100]
lvl 4's are kinda boring in all respect. Plex's with the added ability of anomalies gives you a crazy amount of isk. For Thoose who fly Morauders this is a none stop farm of isk. There is no docking up (If you fly a paladin),unless need ammo. But even then you would have a salvager behind you. At most a max system which they talk about could support 5-6 Marudaers none stop. For them to Finish and move to the next one is 100x faster then any other ship class.
I seen someone talk about each anomaly is worth 10 mill in bounty. Thats 10 mill every 8-10 mins plus loot. Melt it, sell it,Build it. Thats 60 mill an hour. Thats higher then an unpredictable lvl 4 mission.
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:12:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: The Mittani That said, having to haul 200 freighter-loads of crap from Empire in only one week during the grace period is terrible. If the size of hubs could be reduced a bit, or the grace period extended, that'd be nice. GS has a fairly compact little empire close to hisec, I shudder to think what far-flung alliances such as Atlas, AAA and the dronies will have to suffer through.
Why would you want to have 200 I-Hubs? Are you perhaps planning on migrating the whole EVE population to your territory to fulfill some kind of uber-carebear fantasy?
You're only going to need some 40-60 of them at most.
Apparely you dont need anything but ihub to make sov and all the other stuff work now eh? Did you even look at all the other upgrade mods required to get systems anywhere close to what they are today?
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The Mittani
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:14:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Why would you want to have 200 I-Hubs? Are you perhaps planning on migrating the whole EVE population to your territory to fulfill some kind of uber-carebear fantasy?
You're only going to need some 40-60 of them at most.
i want to make a sculpture out of them in the shape of a dong, i'm pretty upset that you can't have multiple hubs in a system X(
Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:14:00 -
[103]
Sounds better, but we will see after people can actually start testing these. Shooting NPCs is pretty much the same no matter where you do it(W-space not included), so only the actual numbers matter.
The only thing that really worries me at this point is, that your track record for following up on feature development promises isn't exactly the best. Painting a grand vision of things to come is worthless if you lack the will and dedication to follow it through.
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Hegbard
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:14:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Dianabolic 20 insta-spawning plex's sounds, to me, like an awful lot of cash flooding in to the system.
Have you ever been to Motsu?
Quote:
Has any consideration been given to follow the drone region model, whereby you don't get any bounties (or certainly a vastly reduced one) but the meta-drop levels are increased dramatically?
Making mining even more useless and making insurance fraud the primary source of ISK.
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Jackman Herzog
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:14:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: xttz
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance people who are worried about inflation have missed the trillion-isk/month (at least) isk sink that just got added to the game
What trillion isk / month?? ....
How many maxed out 0.0 systems could exist? 100? 1000?
There are currently: 2204 Systems with sov between 1 and 4
If every system with sov currently claimed was carried over without upgrades into Dominion, its a 528b/year isk sink. If every conq station was fully upgraded, its a 467bn isk sink plus around 1-2bn per system for all hubs and upgrades required. Now throw in all the Hubs, upgrades TCUs and BCUs that will be bought and lost as territory is invaded and conqured.
If anything 1 trillion is too small an estimate.
Let's assume all those 2204 systems would be upgraded to the max.
Then the upkeep costs would be: 39 mil upkeep per day * 2204 systems * 30 days = 2579 billion isk upkeep per month
Now if we assume also that 1/20 of the systems have military index 5, if we assume that one anomaly takes 1 hour and that all anomalies could be occupied 50% of the time and that each of those high-end anomalies pay 10 mil in bounty, then we will have an _additional_ income from those anomalies alone: 110 systems * 20 anomalies * 23 anomaly respawns/day * 0.50 occupancy * 10 mil per anomaly * 30 days = 7590 billion isk income per month
So, you have 2579 billion additional costs due to upkeep. But you have 7590 billion income from those anomalies. That makes a net additional income after Dominion of 5.01 TRILLION isk per month.
Now please explain me, where is that deflation?
And my assumptions are pretty conservative: only 5% of the systems maxed out, only 50% coverage of the anomalies, only 10 mil income for each anomaly, up to one hour time to run one anomaly, and ALL current sov systems also claimed and max upgraded after Dominion. Also I didn't consider the non-maxed systems.
If 20% systems are maxed, 66% coverage of the anomalies, 15 mil income and 45 minutes time for each anomaly, then you would have an income from those anomalies of 80 trillion per month compared to 2.6 trillion expanses due to upkeep. That are 960 trillion in one year. I think that this is a pretty large sum and IS significant for the economy.
A word from CCP might be nice here.
How many systems do you expect to have a maxed out military index? How many systems do you think SHOULD be maxed out?
How much of that isk is going away from lvl 4 missions, either from 0.0 residents missioning on alts or from carebears moving into 0.0 for the better rewards? My concern is for the mineral crash coming from the "mythical beasts". Unless none of this brings anyone into 0.0 and everything stays the same except for the size of the colors on the map, of course.
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Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:15:00 -
[106]
I didn't read the OP but am posting to express either outrage or support.
Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
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wallenbergaren
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:16:00 -
[107]
So, when you say that these anomalies are as good as the best level 4 missions are you taking LP into account?
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:18:00 -
[108]
Also I have to ask, why is CCP so opposed to making upgrades which affect belt rats? Most inhabitants of conquerable 0.0 (those who dont have a highsec L4 alt, that is) use belt ratting to make the bulk of their ISK, yet CCP seem to have gone out of their way to deliberately not provide improvements to them and encourage complexes and ores instead.
Is it simply a 'belt rats are too easy to macro' issue, or something else which stops you adding increased respawn rate/spawn size/bounty and instead pushing us into different ways of making money?
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Xornicon Altair
Woopatang Primary.
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:21:00 -
[109]
I've asked before and I'm going to ask again... what happened to the plans for a cost multiplier based on the number of systems held? Without making too much Sov expensive, these "AFK Empires" (CCP's term, not mine, from the original DevBlog announcing Dominion) will continue to be AFK and Dominion will achieve none of it's stated goals of making more space available for the smaller alliances that wish to break into 0.0.
I just did some quick calculations based on the value numbers provided and without any multiplier, my alliance, who's income is limited because we tend to avoid mining, ratting, and mission running, will be able to easily cover the cost of the few systems we hold. We could just as easily expand to double the systems we currently hold, although there would be no benefit in doing so other than lighting up on the map. And if we can do it without carebearing or high-end moons, then the large AFK Empires will have no problem sorting it out and maintaining their space.
This means Dominion fails and you may as well have left us with the POS based system we have now. ----- Vancouver EVE Players Gathering! |
Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:23:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Wu Phat lvl 4's are kinda boring in all respect. Plex's with the added ability of anomalies gives you a crazy amount of isk. For Thoose who fly Morauders this is a none stop farm of isk. There is no docking up (If you fly a paladin),unless need ammo. But even then you would have a salvager behind you. At most a max system which they talk about could support 5-6 Marudaers none stop. For them to Finish and move to the next one is 100x faster then any other ship class.
I seen someone talk about each anomaly is worth 10 mill in bounty. Thats 10 mill every 8-10 mins plus loot. Melt it, sell it,Build it. Thats 60 mill an hour. Thats higher then an unpredictable lvl 4 mission.
Have you even run a CA yourself and know what you are talking about? Obviously not. I guess you've never run into a rogue drone plex or a ****ty plex with 10 rats or any number of other variants of really ****ty CA's. Not to mention this 20 instant spawning CA's ****. They can spawn within 5 AU of any single Celestial in the system so you will have to constantly be scanning and praying some other person isn't in the next one otherwise you get to sit out and wait again until you find another one. CA's will be ****y isk/time reward.
And what the hell is this **** about mineral site only respawning at downtime? do you want this to turn into the old exploration system where the people living in the aussy/russian time zones getting the best exploration again?
Originally by: Scatim Helicon Also I have to ask, why is CCP so opposed to making upgrades which affect belt rats? Most inhabitants of conquerable 0.0 (those who dont have a highsec L4 alt, that is) use belt ratting to make the bulk of their ISK, yet CCP seem to have gone out of their way to deliberately not provide improvements to them and encourage complexes and ores instead.
Is it simply a 'belt rats are too easy to macro' issue, or something else which stops you adding increased respawn rate/spawn size/bounty and instead pushing us into different ways of making money?
Changing old code isn't CCP's way because they are incompetent and can't bother touching anything that is old.
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EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:26:00 -
[111]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
It's a massive misconception that anomalies are not profitable. As said before, the top ones (which you'll have permanently available through the top tier upgrades) isk for isk match the most profitable missions, and certainly blow ratting out of the water.
Added to that, we're looking at more ways to improve on the planned content, hopefully building on the foundation we're laying now.
It is not. We constantly have people decide to give them a shot, and invariably they realize they are not worth it. I don't know how you've messed up the math badly enough to think they're profitable, but if you are starting from the assumption they are this is going to fall flat on its face. Top-tier CA's are not worth it right now. If you can run one of those, you can do something much better with your time. I had hoped you realized how bad these were and were going to introduce more but this statement makes me think that's not the case, that you will just be seeding some of these "high-end" sites nobody bothers to run right now anyway.
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L'Artest
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:34:00 -
[112]
Originally by: xttz Edited by: xttz on 18/11/2009 15:55:07 Ok here goes
1. When a system is under attack and a hub is destroyed, progress is preserved by the defender not being able to anchor a new hub until SBUs are destroyed. How is progress preserved for outpost, and what stops the defender retaking and repairing it to gain extra reinforced timers?
2. Will there be any mechanic to build hubs and upgrades from smaller materials, or are players actually expected to haul scores of freighters in under a week just to keep their existing space?
3. Will the sov-based restrictions on starbases be lifted, such as the anchoring limit of 1/5 per day. 3a.Will starbases recieve any form of buff now they are now longer the focus of sov and will be used far less often? Capital ship proliferation since starbases were introduced makes them relatively weak in small numbers, and the starbase defense role is now marginalised. The current stront-based reinforce timer leaves industrial towers such as capital ship arrays hilariously vulnerable to impromptu kiting and constant job interruption.
4. Do you realise how much the recent mothership changes break sov mechanics? *sits a dozen motherships on an outpost* *repairs it* *docks after taking 50m damage* *repairs for free, resumes repping*
please respond to this post
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Bagdon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:39:00 -
[113]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
It's a massive misconception that anomalies are not profitable. As said before, the top ones (which you'll have permanently available through the top tier upgrades) isk for isk match the most profitable missions, and certainly blow ratting out of the water.
Let's just get one thing clear here. You're talking about some new anomalies that aren't on TQ right now? Right?
This is what I believe confuses everyone.
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Wu Phat
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:43:00 -
[114]
Goons are worryed about there afk empire and have to actually play the game.
Atlas is worryed about there prized capital Fleet becoming stuffed puppys.
CVA is worried there get crushed becuase they won't have anything to hide behind.
I think Dominion is doing a fine job in taming these monsters.
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CCP Soundwave
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:43:00 -
[115]
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
It's a massive misconception that anomalies are not profitable. As said before, the top ones (which you'll have permanently available through the top tier upgrades) isk for isk match the most profitable missions, and certainly blow ratting out of the water.
Added to that, we're looking at more ways to improve on the planned content, hopefully building on the foundation we're laying now.
It is not. We constantly have people decide to give them a shot, and invariably they realize they are not worth it. I don't know how you've messed up the math badly enough to think they're profitable, but if you are starting from the assumption they are this is going to fall flat on its face. Top-tier CA's are not worth it right now. If you can run one of those, you can do something much better with your time. I had hoped you realized how bad these were and were going to introduce more but this statement makes me think that's not the case, that you will just be seeding some of these "high-end" sites nobody bothers to run right now anyway.
It's not worth it currently because whenever you enter a system, you're given a mixed bag of anomalies. Currently, you'd have to warp from system to system, tracking the high end ones. With the new system, you'll have them constantly available.
So saying "I cleared out two systems of anomalies yesterday and didn't make a lot of money" might certainly be true, but saying "I ran the top anomalies of a level five system and didn't make a lot of money" isn't.
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Illectroculus Defined
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:44:00 -
[116]
I still don't like the basic money => claims & upgrades system because it means that the best way for an alliance to pay is to have a bunch of pilots in empire running lvl4 missions - even more so in the case of the drone regions.
System claims and upgrades should be paid for by a special 'claim credit' currency which is attached to each system, if any rats get killed in the system then the system owner gets claim credits, even if the killer has nothing to do with the alliance owning the system. This makes things a whole lot better for alliances in the Drone regions, and for alliances who want to run with an NRDS policy and can get the credits to sustain systems from neutrals using their space.
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Kernok
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:45:00 -
[117]
are there chances of faction/officer/hauler spawns in anomalies or is that reserved for belts???
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Misaki Yuuko
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:45:00 -
[118]
people talking about inflation, get a clue: 1) Usually people does X activity to earn Y income to spend on Z (ships for pewpew, pimped deadspace mods, whatever), regardless of the space, the only thing is if an activity requeires mroe or less time. 2) There isn't going to be suddenlly an increase of hours dedicated to isk earning acitivities neither an increase in manpower, and even if there was an increase in manpower, the first point stands, cancelling the effect and thus not icnreasing inflation. What is better is, if ISK/H or labour to earn Y is reduced, more time will be dedicated to otehr more itneresting activities like roaming or plain warfare. 3) Even if the above wasn't true, 'npcing' is not only about bounties, but about salvage and loot (that's why it's important to retain loot in some way or an other). One of the reasons it's that way is to keep a balnce between ISK:goods and mantein ISK value in a certain range. 4) All the 'inflation' argument is negated by the sole existence of lvl4 missions in empire, so STFU.
Overall changes and rebalance seem fine for a good fundation for future iterations, I still not sure about if there will be enough incentive for individuals and income generation activities in 0.0 which is key to success of this 'exodus 2.0'. Also I think there of a lot of more interesting ideas for industrial upgrades (related to industry/research jobs and outposts bonus), and I'm sure a lot of people can think about nice strategic upgrades. I still think JB and cynojammers should have more expensive upkeep (2x), this would really force alliances to think where to deploy them.
All that said, some not directlly related but also important info I would like to know: a) It will be possible to deploy several outposts in a single system in the future? (Also I think outposts should be TOTALLY decoupled of sov contesting: no reinforcement and no crapp.) b) What are you goign to do regarding the situation with outpost upgrades & their cost? As it stands, NPC stations are so much better than outposts, when it should be the otehr way around: NPC stations heavilly nerfed in all aspects (more icenntive to go to 0.0) and outpost base atrtibutes and upgrades made better.
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teji
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:48:00 -
[119]
Edited by: teji on 18/11/2009 17:48:32
Originally by: CCP Soundwave So saying "I cleared out two systems of anomalies yesterday and didn't make a lot of money" might certainly be true, but saying "I ran the top anomalies of a level five system and didn't make a lot of money" isn't.
How do we get from which has been shown to be true: (Current top tier anomaly)/time = not worth it
To what you propose to be true: (Current top tier anomaly*number of sites run)/(time*number of sites run) = Worth it?
Your math makes no sense. Number of sites does not factor into the equation.
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EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:49:00 -
[120]
Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 18/11/2009 17:50:51
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
It's not worth it currently because whenever you enter a system, you're given a mixed bag of anomalies. Currently, you'd have to warp from system to system, tracking the high end ones. With the new system, you'll have them constantly available.
So saying "I cleared out two systems of anomalies yesterday and didn't make a lot of money" might certainly be true, but saying "I ran the top anomalies of a level five system and didn't make a lot of money" isn't.
Could you give us the names of anomolies you consider high-end? I mean hell, I'll run some this weekend and total up the bounties and the time it takes to clear them. We have wiki entries on all of these and there are none that people consider worth running. Also, do these "high-end" anomolies require either billion-isk missionrunner specials or multiple people, and do you compare those to the things you can do with those setups that are much more profitable (exploration, ratting in several systems, ect).
I mean, these have been around for years and everyone in 0.0 has considered them worthless the entire time. Everything else, even things initially thought of as not worth the time (escalations, for example), people eventually figured out how to make money on. Nobody's ever done that with encounters, and I can assure you it's not because they're not tried. Hell, I bet I can't even clear these high-end anomalies in a carrier fast enough to be worth my time (and that is a really really dumb idea).
Originally by: Kernok are there chances of faction/officer/hauler spawns in anomalies or is that reserved for belts???
They can have a faction spawn something like 1/10th of the time and can escalate to a DED complex more rarely. But if you could do DED complexes you'd be exploring anyway since it's better money.
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Jack bubu
Lyonesse. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:50:00 -
[121]
Really nice adjustments, i can live with them :)
though dont make outposts too cheap, would be bad to see everybody spamming them in every system since that would mean 2 additional reinforced modes to shoot through.
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CCP Soundwave
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:51:00 -
[122]
Originally by: teji Edited by: teji on 18/11/2009 17:48:32
Originally by: CCP Soundwave So saying "I cleared out two systems of anomalies yesterday and didn't make a lot of money" might certainly be true, but saying "I ran the top anomalies of a level five system and didn't make a lot of money" isn't.
How do we get from which has been shown to be true: (Current top tier anomaly)/time = not worth it
To what you propose to be true: (Current top tier anomaly*number of sites run)/(time*number of sites run) = Worth it?
Your math makes no sense. Number of sites does not factor into the equation.
Are you telling me the number of good sites you have available does not influence how much money you make spending x number of hours doing them?
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EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:53:00 -
[123]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Are you telling me the number of good sites you have available does not influence how much money you make spending x number of hours doing them?
The time spent clearing a single high-end anomaly makes you less money than other things you could be doing in the same time. If it's not profitable to do once, it's not profitable to farm.
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Nairb Ecrep
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:54:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Nairb Ecrep on 18/11/2009 17:55:09 I for one, just want to thank CCP for these updates. I think they've looked at the feedback and made some changes for the better.
I think most of the complaints now are more along the line that you would get, no matter the change. I can envision now 1 system sustaining multiple players, be it mining or NPCing.
Making the higher tier outpost upgrade changes was also excellent, and much needed.
Thanks again for listening CCP!
To the people freaking out:
These changes looks pretty good. Instead of freaking out about specific isk/hour ratios or inflation issues, let the changes happen and see where it takes us. If tweeks need to be made, they'll make them. They've listened thus far to feedback, so long as they keep it up, nothing to freak out about.
I know at times CCP isn't always excellent about fixing things, but they're doing it "right" now, so cut em a break.
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Altaree
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:56:00 -
[125]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Are you telling me the number of good sites you have available does not influence how much money you make spending x number of hours doing them?
I think a Lot of the anomaly complaints revolve around not ever getting an officer spawn. Another part might be that the loot tables seem to be different between anomalies and belts. You guys have mentioned that the officer part is fixed. Will you please verify the loot tables? I think that would go a LONG way to calming down those who actually read. --Altaree
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Misaki Yuuko
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:56:00 -
[126]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave Are you telling me the number of good sites you have available does not influence how much money you make spending x number of hours doing them?
Yes it does, but do the highest CA have a decent income (and this is HIGHER than lvl4 by a sensible margin. at leats 1.5 better). But the question here is, if the best sites give you enough income to overcome this problems: - coverop alts blocking CA respawn. - roaming gangs forcing you to dock up, chang ship, fight (and lose time when you are earning money) - given new CA are deployed and are group content: splitting earning, salvage loot. - replacing the inevitable ship lose time to tiem dues to any reason.
All this is hassle and trouble that you don't get in empire, to earn the same, not sure if this enough incentive tbh...
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Missy Miner85
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:57:00 -
[127]
I find the Haven/Sanctum actually quite lucrative anomalies to run. They are definetly not worthless. Bounties are comparable to a Level 4 not to mention the chance for a faction spawn and the fact that you dont need to dock/talk to the agent.
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Illectroculus Defined
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:58:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Misaki Yuuko
Yes it does, but do the highest CA have a decent income (and this is HIGHER than lvl4 by a sensible margin. at leats 1.5 better). But the question here is, if the best sites give you enough income to overcome this problems: - coverop alts blocking CA respawn. - roaming gangs forcing you to dock up, chang ship, fight (and lose time when you are earning money) - given new CA are deployed and are group content: splitting earning, salvage loot. - replacing the inevitable ship lose time to tiem dues to any reason.
All this is hassle and trouble that you don't get in empire, to earn the same, not sure if this enough incentive tbh...
Especially since you can just run lvl4's in empire and *still* pay for all the strategic upgrades witht he proceeds.
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Nairb Ecrep
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:00:00 -
[129]
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Are you telling me the number of good sites you have available does not influence how much money you make spending x number of hours doing them?
The time spent clearing a single high-end anomaly makes you less money than other things you could be doing in the same time. If it's not profitable to do once, it's not profitable to farm.
You haven't really seen what they have in store yet, so can you really be saying this?
Also if you look at the income of a corp/alliance, having many of these sites available will have a dramatic impact on income.
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teji
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:00:00 -
[130]
Edited by: teji on 18/11/2009 18:00:47
Originally by: CCP Soundwave Are you telling me the number of good sites you have available does not influence how much money you make spending x number of hours doing them?
I'm telling you that if the site is bad you could spawn an infinite number of them and they still wouldn't be worth running.
*where bad is determined by: (total isk and loot gained) / (time spent clearing a single anomaly).
Also keeping in mind the intangibles: The risk of losing the system. And the costs: Decay of standings and cost of upkeep.
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Dante Edmundo
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:01:00 -
[131]
I like it. Good response to the original threadnaught CCP - professional and non-defensive despite the incredible amount of vitriol. I'm much more hopeful now that SOV nul-sec changes will be a positive addition.
I guess the one suggestion I would make is don't drop the ball on continuing with improvements/refinements with nul-sec SOV. It seems that this has been the case with other Eve expansions/features (Faction Warfare anyone?) At least have one SCRUM team working on SOV-nul-sec at all times!!
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Altaree
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:01:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Missy Miner85 I find the Haven/Sanctum actually quite lucrative anomalies to run. They are definetly not worthless. Bounties are comparable to a Level 4 not to mention the chance for a faction spawn and the fact that you dont need to dock/talk to the agent.
I have seen this too. Much better than warping between belts and hoping for a target. Most GOOD alliances have a policy that if someone is in a plex, you must go find another. --Altaree
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:02:00 -
[133]
Originally by: teji Edited by: teji on 18/11/2009 17:48:32
Originally by: CCP Soundwave So saying "I cleared out two systems of anomalies yesterday and didn't make a lot of money" might certainly be true, but saying "I ran the top anomalies of a level five system and didn't make a lot of money" isn't.
How do we get from which has been shown to be true: (Current top tier anomaly)/time = not worth it
To what you propose to be true: (Current top tier anomaly*number of sites run)/(time*number of sites run) = Worth it?
Your math makes no sense. Number of sites does not factor into the equation.
You don't want to understand it, do you? Or do you want to purposefully do some slandering?
He talks about the CURRENT anomalies which are a mixed bag and often not worth it.
And then he talks about the NEW anomalies which will be worth much more, respawning instantly in the same system etc.
The current anomalies are often not worth it. The new anomalies, especially from an upgraded level 5 system, will be very much worth it.
Why is that so difficult to understand?
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something somethingdark
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:02:00 -
[134]
I take it then true sec will only remain relevant for asteroid belts ?
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EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:04:00 -
[135]
Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 18/11/2009 18:04:57
Originally by: Nairb Ecrep
You haven't really seen what they have in store yet, so can you really be saying this?
Also if you look at the income of a corp/alliance, having many of these sites available will have a dramatic impact on income.
If they are introducing new ones, then I will wait to comment until I see them. However, I read Soundwave's comments to mean they are only using existing anomalies or ones equivalent to them, as he considers the current selection adequate. If CCP understands the issues with the current implementation, I believe they could fix it, but I don't think they understand how and why they're broken.
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ArmagedonLT
Amarr Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:06:00 -
[136]
Abathur, Soundwave or someone else from ccp (not nozh) can comment on the upcomming supercarrier changes? And how/why did the Nozh ended up by "balancing" them.
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Nairb Ecrep
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:11:00 -
[137]
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 18/11/2009 18:04:57
If they are introducing new ones, then I will wait to comment until I see them. However, I read Soundwave's comments to mean they are only using existing anomalies or ones equivalent to them, as he considers the current selection adequate. If CCP understands the issues with the current implementation, I believe they could fix it, but I don't think they understand how and why they're broken.
I'm not too up to speed with anomalies myself tbh. Some people are saying that the best ones (assume what lvl 5 will be) are like 1.5x better than lvl 4 missions, without the docking - talking to agent etc..
How do you think the current ones are broken? They'll be instantly available, which has gotta increase the isk/hour alone
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teji
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:12:00 -
[138]
Edited by: teji on 18/11/2009 18:13:41
Originally by: Gnulpie And then he talks about the NEW anomalies which will be worth much more, respawning instantly in the same system etc.
You better re-read the devblog.
Quote: The current anomalies are often not worth it. The new anomalies, especially from an upgraded level 5 system, will be very much worth it.
Nowhere in the devblog says they will be new anomalies. All it says that they will only spawn top tier anomalies at level 5. I would assume unless told otherwise that those are the current top tier anomalies in game unchanged which have been already deemed to be not worth it by us.
Quote: Why is that so difficult to understand?
Because you are jumping to conclusions regarding what CCP has not said.
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BanzaiJoe
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:14:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Fuujin
Originally by: BanzaiJoe I still don't understand why maintenance is "isk into the ether". I stick isk into a machine in space and it works... weak.
My suggestion is to convert the isk plan into resources that already exist in the game. There are a variety of materials already seeded. Convert the isk bill to 90% of cost of seeded for risk / time-energy to buy in empire and move to 0.0
A couple things come of this
Pros ++ The absurdity of putting isk into a virtual account to keep an object in space kept up is gone.
++ Those that live deep in 0.0 with a region or two between them and low-sec will have some weakness whereas now they can sit deep and earn fat loot (Dominion style).
+ Seeded objects can have a market based on distance
+ Can be varied in accordance with structure e.g. valuable structure requires item that does not cost much but has large volume requiring corp to work together to get item and earn value of space
+/- Corps supply lines will need to carry new items - Corp supply lines already exist
- It's close to Dominion release
- Requires testing/ feedback
- ???
Protip: if your game requires you to work it like a job just so your internet spaceship alliance can hold virtual land, its a bad system.
One of the big reasons they shifted TO a pure ISK model is to cut out the soul-crushing logistics requirements. A supply chain is still required to fuel jump bridge/jammer/mining/etc towers, but thankfully the need to fuel several hundred towers to hold a region or two of space is gone.
Try it before you eagerly run back to it like an abused spouse.
I'm not suggesting that we go anywhere near back to fueling hundreds of towers. CCP moved away from POS warfare and POS as Sov holders because yes, it was soul crushing.
You may like the solution because you have shaved off several hundred towers (or more considering Delve+ is pretty big). I like the idea of less as well, but there's a happy medium between 200+ and zero. 5 objects per system at 39M isk / day for the rewards that are offered is chump change. Considering the upgrades that are offered, that could be done by 1 person in one day for a system that could support a small corp. There's a happy medium, I suggested one. You have a better one?
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CCP Soundwave
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:16:00 -
[140]
Edited by: CCP Soundwave on 18/11/2009 18:21:01
Originally by: xttz Edited by: xttz on 18/11/2009 15:55:07 Ok here goes
1. When a system is under attack and a hub is destroyed, progress is preserved by the defender not being able to anchor a new hub until SBUs are destroyed. How is progress preserved for outpost, and what stops the defender retaking and repairing it to gain extra reinforced timers?
2. Will there be any mechanic to build hubs and upgrades from smaller materials, or are players actually expected to haul scores of freighters in under a week just to keep their existing space?
3. Will the sov-based restrictions on starbases be lifted, such as the anchoring limit of 1/5 per day. 3a.Will starbases recieve any form of buff now they are now longer the focus of sov and will be used far less often? Capital ship proliferation since starbases were introduced makes them relatively weak in small numbers, and the starbase defense role is now marginalised. The current stront-based reinforce timer leaves industrial towers such as capital ship arrays hilariously vulnerable to impromptu kiting and constant job interruption.
4. Do you realise how much the recent mothership changes break sov mechanics? *sits a dozen motherships on an outpost* *repairs it* *docks after taking 50m damage* *repairs for free, resumes repping*
1. When an outpost is taken, it goes back to full hitpoints, giving the attacker a buffer to take out the TCUs and plant their own. This is made with the assumption that the attacker wil only attempt to take a station in a system where they control the field. If you experience ping-pong, your invasion has not gone according to plan
2. I can't remember the complete transition mechanics, but your sov won't depend on the IH, but the TCU. So while hauling them might take time, it won't sweep sov away from under you. It's obviously a nice defensive buffer, but yea, sov will remain.
3. We have not been able to re-do POSs as of right now, but hopefully we will be able to accomodate them better to their new role in the future. Their vulnerability, especially in terms of building supercaps, is intended.
4. Motherships and caps in general are not my area and I'd prefer to not comment on it.
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Nairb Ecrep
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:18:00 -
[141]
One benefit I imagine to not having as many poses with corresponding fuel bays/guns and what not, is less load on the server tracking all that. Could improve things quite a bit, so I'm happy with the virtual wallet poof bit if we have less lag.
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Manfred Rickenbocker
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:20:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Manfred Rickenbocker on 18/11/2009 18:23:24 A small request:
Since you changed the Pirate Detection array to spawn four instead of two anomalies per level, that will mean there are 20 anomalies at level 5. Presumably, if you have about 18 other people running anomalies simultaneously, there's an extremely good chance you will bump into someone who has already triggered the anomaly instead of a fresh one once your current one expires. Is there a way to add an asterix to an anomaly you find on the scanner to show that it has been triggered? Ex. Gurista's Hub -> *Gurista's Hub
Side bonus: you can sort by name and have the un-spawned anomalies sorted from the spawned ones and keep your ratting uninterrupted. Double bonus: if applied to signatures as well, it will stop you from wasting time jumping on top of people there too or wasting time with those pesky non-despawning profession sites. One Downside: if accidentally applied to wormholes, it can give away pirate campers in empire. Another Downside: Some jerk finding all the anomalies, triggering them, then running away just to annoy people. (acceptable risk imho) ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Miss Lear
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:23:00 -
[143]
Currently CCP seems to not want alliances to have large amounts of upgraded system, thus the dominion patch and the required cost of having these upgrades
The increase in guaranteed sites seems like a +, but in a NRDS area if the alliance chooses to upgrade a system, there is no guarantee that the alliances making the upgrades will get to run these sites making the upgrades not worth it as they wont be able to make the money from the upgrade.
Might i make a suggestion.
What if the alliances that is holding the hub gets a few dedicated sites? level 1 might not get a dedicated site, but once you get to level 5 maybe the ratio of scan-able sites vs dedicated sites are 15/5 still maintaining the 20 make sites at level 5
The 15 free sites like you said would be scanned but the 5 dedicated ones would only be found if you flew to hub and used it as a scanner and it gave you the location of the site. Make the dedicated 5 sites worth a bit more isk/hour (higher teir) then the other 15 sites to help the holding alliance pay and maintain and have this upgrade be worth it.
A feature like this would help NRDS alliance be bale to run sites to pay for the upgrade and for NBSI alliances they will be running all the sites already so it does not matter if they have to use a ship scanner or the hub scanner
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Agent Known
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:24:00 -
[144]
I really wish the TCUs were buildable so I could make a killing off of Dominion...but all well...
The numbers certainly seem much more reasonable now. I think the answers to the various questions will lie into what actually happens on Dominion's release; the universe of EVE is very unpredictable, and setting in stone what will happen is just not in the style of EVE.
On another note, I also have an annoying sig.
inaftertimeflux |
Darirol
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:24:00 -
[145]
Quote: Ore Prospecting Arrays
These are hidden asteroid belts and you get one site guaranteed for every level of upgrade to a maximum of five.
These sites will re-spawn every downtime, so even if you do not mine out every rock, there will be fresh ones waiting for you the next day.
does that mean these belts only respawn on downtime? or does these belts also respawn if they are completly empty?
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Bagdon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:26:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Gnulpie
And then he talks about the NEW anomalies which will be worth much more, respawning instantly in the same system etc.
Please show me the reference to the "NEW anomalies". Those have never been mentioned. People just assume that there will be new anomalies because otherwise the things CCP say are not consistent with reality. But there never was any confirmation that there will be new anomalies.
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Pringlescan
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:26:00 -
[147]
What happens if while someone is shooting a station, a spy offlines all of the sbus in the system? When the station goes invulnerable can you still rep it? Does it automatically make the station repair everything?
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Gehnster
Gallente RED SUN RISING
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:29:00 -
[148]
How long does it take to get to standing needed to do level 4 missions?
How much time would it take to start doing some of the things this blog talked about and start making a lot of money without having to work in standing?
I personally have not done many missions because frankly I find it boring and I don't FEEL like grinding standings to get a lot of money. If I can do something else right NOW and still get a lot of money (maybe not as much but still a lot), I'm gonna do it. Plus, I don't lose standings with other factions.
Also, some people seem to think that if they stop mining/ratting for a few days the index will decay significantly where as faction standing wouldn't and is another reason to do level 4 missions. So, are you saying you are the only person who is doing any of this index stuff? I would think there would be others around to keep your index up while gone.
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LustTrader
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:41:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Lost0ne
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Yep, we've definitely looked at all of this. I'm not a big fan of the drone region model where the reward is loot based, because it will usually end up being a competing feature. Today for example, mining is not as profitable as it could be, in parts because of the drone regions, which further weakens players ability to support themselves in 0.0.
If this is true are you dong anything to fix the Drone regions then?
It seems to me the best way to fix the drone regions is to leave the belt rats alone but seed 'other' faction anomalies instead of just drone anomalies. Right now Drone regions have no DED complex's, no officer spawn, no faction loot. Seems a simple and elegant fix for a major regional problem.
+1
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Nairb Ecrep
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:45:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Nairb Ecrep on 18/11/2009 18:45:52
Originally by: Miss Lear Currently CCP seems to not want alliances to have large amounts of upgraded system, thus the dominion patch and the required cost of having these upgrades
The increase in guaranteed sites seems like a +, but in a NRDS area if the alliance chooses to upgrade a system, there is no guarantee that the alliances making the upgrades will get to run these sites making the upgrades not worth it as they wont be able to make the money from the upgrade.
Might i make a suggestion.
What if the alliances that is holding the hub gets a few dedicated sites? level 1 might not get a dedicated site, but once you get to level 5 maybe the ratio of scan-able sites vs dedicated sites are 15/5 still maintaining the 20 make sites at level 5
The 15 free sites like you said would be scanned but the 5 dedicated ones would only be found if you flew to hub and used it as a scanner and it gave you the location of the site. Make the dedicated 5 sites worth a bit more isk/hour (higher teir) then the other 15 sites to help the holding alliance pay and maintain and have this upgrade be worth it.
A feature like this would help NRDS alliance be bale to run sites to pay for the upgrade and for NBSI alliances they will be running all the sites already so it does not matter if they have to use a ship scanner or the hub scanner
Another idea, which might be difficult to code (dunno), would be the ability to tax someone using one of your upgrades, separate from the corp tax scheme. It could work through the GUI for the IH, and could be set based on standings (IE don't tax blues, but tax neuts). Before the isk is sent to the char for bounties, the corp tax and this system tax could be applied.
Could also maybe be applied with renters etc...
Just food for thought...
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adriaans
Amarr Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:53:00 -
[151]
Just checked to make sure on test server,
the infrastructure hubs are 750 000 m3... HOW is a small alliance supposed to get that to it's destination... a small alliance won't have the manpower or logistics needed that the large already established ones do. If the size was reduced so that it could fit in an orca that would make it MUCH better for someone like us (it can SS and cloak when hostiles get to close). Because a freighter moving through 0.0 WILL be hunted by pretty much everyone and face it.. none of the current holders are gonna want anyone else into 0.0 with exception of people joining their blob.. sorry alliance, the most usual response you get when approaching any of the current holders is ''go back to grinding missions and ganking noobs, nub''... i highly doubt that will change.. err off topic...
point is: how is a smaller entity which wants to(and which you (ccp) wants into 0.0) supposed to be able to do a freighter run and live, especially if it is deeper into 0.0! We want to, but how we are going to get the freighter in (and pref out) alive is to me a mystery... even with nap's/blue's.
it's not like we can just get a titan to bridge it in... -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze crystals for Amarr!
Originally by: UMEE if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail.
QFT! |
Arronicus
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:55:00 -
[152]
How to ensure that CCP reads your post, takes it seriously, and considers you a productive member of the community,
Step 1:
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: RedClaws Edited by: RedClaws on 18/11/2009 15:02:56 Nice, improvements have been made since the last time.
Can we get some numbers on the new cost of outpost upgrades please?
Finding an empty anomoly might be a pain with a lot of people in the same system, is there any way to know or communicate reliably which are taken?
Edit: I noticed there was no mention of the anomolies being better once you upgrade , just more of them , is that still in?
The anomalies available increase in quality with the upgrades. So at level five, you will have more and better anomalies available. There are some low level ones in there as well that can be done by relatively young players, so the benefits aren't restricted to older players.
Are you ****ing kidding or something you stupid idiot. Soffer i know you aren't this stupid shut the hell up. CA ****ing suck. Every single rat in a CA is worse then a belt rat, they have ****ty salvage, they have ****ty payout, they are instance and you can end up finding another person in one. CA ****ing suck as a mechanic and unless you are going to instance them the way missions are level 4 missions will always beat them in isk/time so fix it already.
Step 2: Proceed to get drunk, break your neighbours windows, beat your kids, and then cry and swear some more. That will help about as much as step 1.
Your post Aprudena, fails to take into account some real facts. There are rats in ccosmic anomalies with almost 1mil isk bounties. That IS far better than alot of asteroid rats that you get, considering the fact that the are all in one place, and you dont have to bounce around. Also, consider the fact that the loot is almost always crap as is the salvage, aside from the commanders. This means that you can take a smaller ship with little cargo, and not have to worry about looting or salvaging to make maximum isk per hour. Then take into account that there are belts with no rats in them. If you actually UNDERSTOOD the anomaly system, perhaps we wouldnt have such ignorant posts clogging the forums.
Now if only we can get nozg off the motherships and get a dev who listens to fix them, please.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:00:00 -
[153]
1. Any reason CCP can't just upgrade all outpost systems on Sisi to Military Level V so we can practically test your assertions? That would seem to be the easiest way to settle valid questions about the value of Cosmic Anomalies.
2. Also, why not do level V Industrial Upgrades as well, so mining and other aspects can be evaluated and informed feedback generated?
3. In regards to the following:
Quote: Entrapment
These are chance-based on signatures to gain access to DED complexes. Every level of upgrade increases your chances of finding both a signature and a higher level DED complex. Upon completion of running the site, there is the possibility of finding another one (no waiting until next downtime).
Quantum Flux Generator
This one is simple and every level increases your percentage chances to discover a wormhole in the system.
Why can't you tell us exactly how the mechanic works? What is the % increase, over what period of time?
When I see features like this in any MMO, things that can't be parsed and proven one way or another, I become very suspicious. How would anyone know whether this type of upgrade was working or not?
4. In regards to reinforcement timers:
Quote: Changed the reinforcement variance timers on Outposts and Infrastructure Hubs from four hours to two hours
So the total range of variance goes from 8 hours (+/- 4 hours) to 4 hours (+/- 2 hours). Fair enough. The 8 hour range seemed too large for my taste, so good job. This brings up a question, though, about how these reinforcement timers exactly work. I've read everything I could find about them, but have some questions:
a) Is any fuel required to set the reinforcement timer on an outpost/i-hub, e.g. stront? b) If no fuel, is the timer set in # of hours, or simply by selecting a the specific time you want them to exit? Big distinction, as you may want to vary the former on different days/times of the week, and the latter you'd probably never adjust. Also, under the former, "kiting" is possible, and a waste of time under the latter. c) Who can set reinforcement timers? Is it a new role, or tied to Starbase Management? d) Where does a character have to be to set/adjust a reinforcement timer? Within 2500m of an I-Hub? Docked in an outpost/conquerable station? Can I adjust all timers everywhere from the comfort of a cloaked ship in space? e) Can reinforcement timers be modified once an outpost/hub is under attack?
5. Some questions about SBUs that remain unanswered: a) What roles, if any, are required to anchor/online them? b) Is there a limit that can be dropped in a system per alliance or per gate? c) Is there a limit on the number of SBUs an alliance can deploy in a given day? d) If alliance A anchors an SBU, can someone in alliance B online it? If not, I can see these being deployed defensively to "block" gates from being assaulted and SBU's onlined.
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internaut
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:04:00 -
[154]
Edited by: internaut on 18/11/2009 19:04:59 Your post Aprudena, fails to take into account some real facts. There are rats in ccosmic anomalies with almost 1mil isk bounties. That IS far better than alot of asteroid rats that you get, considering the fact that the are all in one place, and you dont have to bounce around. Also, consider the fact that the loot is almost always crap as is the salvage, aside from the commanders. This means that you can take a smaller ship with little cargo, and not have to worry about looting or salvaging to make maximum isk per hour. Then take into account that there are belts with no rats in them.
There are only like 2 battleship belt rats in Delve that have a bounty of less than 1 million (Archons and one other I forget). Saying there exist rats with bounties that may be larger than the lowest belt rat bounty isn't really a good point to argue anomalies are better than belt ratting.
"Also consider the loot .. salvage is almost always crap" Wow what a bonus! Freed from the shackles of looting and salvaging! Surely this will improve my income.
"Belts with no rats in them" This is true, but there are also anomalies with players already in them, which you will have to leave and scan out another anomaly. This takes longer than simply warping to the next belt.
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Nightbird
SiN. Corp Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:08:00 -
[155]
My question concerns jump bridges and their associated costs:
Quote: TCU: 6m ISK / day Jump Bridge: 10m ISK / day Cyno Generators: 2m ISK / day Cyno Jammers: 20m ISK / day Capital Ship Assembly Arrays: 1m ISK / day
Modules like Jammers, Beacons and CSAA are things that are solo-system only. You live in a system, invest in the TCU, rat and mine the hell out of it, decide you want to drop an outpost egg, put up a beacon for your caps and a jammer to keep the bad guys out.
Bridges, on the other hand, are unique in that they require both an end point and a starting point... in order for one of these things to work, you need both a start point and an end point.... which essentially doubles all the associated costs.
You need to pay to claim 2 systems worth of Sov (2x TCUs) and then pay what is essentially TWICE for the single "bridge" connection.
Would it not make more sense to reduce by half the cost of the bridge, so that you're paying 10 mil for 2-system set, as opposed to 20mil per 2-system set.
I understand and agree with the idea of incremental costs of ownership, but at this price the bridge seems to be "double dipping".
Keep up the hard (and often thankless!) work.
Cheers, Nightbird
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Ezekialous
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:09:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Nairb Ecrep Edited by: Nairb Ecrep on 18/11/2009 17:55:09 I for one, just want to thank CCP for these updates. I think they've looked at the feedback and made some changes for the better.
I think most of the complaints now are more along the line that you would get, no matter the change. I can envision now 1 system sustaining multiple players, be it mining or NPCing.
Making the higher tier outpost upgrade changes was also excellent, and much needed.
Thanks again for listening CCP!
To the people freaking out:
These changes looks pretty good. Instead of freaking out about specific isk/hour ratios or inflation issues, let the changes happen and see where it takes us. If tweeks need to be made, they'll make them. They've listened thus far to feedback, so long as they keep it up, nothing to freak out about.
I know at times CCP isn't always excellent about fixing things, but they're doing it "right" now, so cut em a break.
I have to agree with this statment, Rome was not build in a day, and this isnt the last update we will see in eve. How about we let CCP do what they do best :) we are all forgetting that CCP have a bit more foresight in these matters.
I have said it before in other posts but I really want to thank CCP for all the effort they have put into this expansion. CCP does not have to keep providing new and exciting ways to play eve but they do and I for one thank you for the four years of enjoyment I have recieved and look forward to many more years of enjoyment. :)
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Valrandir
Elemental Mercury Dystopia Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:10:00 -
[157]
Hi
This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware. |
Zhentor
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:11:00 -
[158]
Quote: Ore Prospecting Arrays
These are hidden asteroid belts and you get one site guaranteed for every level of upgrade to a maximum of five. These are not the typical hidden belts though. If you've ever been into wormhole space and seen some of the riches there, then you have an idea of what to expect. Within these hidden belts reside mythical beasts such as ęKing Arkonor' and many of his closest friends.
These sites will re-spawn every downtime, so even if you do not mine out every rock, there will be fresh ones waiting for you the next day.
Is there anything that will delay some of these sites from showing up during the course of the day, or are those of us in the US with euro alliance mates just S.O.L for mining in the near future? How much time would it take roughly to mine out a site with four or five hulks?
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:11:00 -
[159]
Alright CCP... im sold for launch. Can't wait for december 1st to hit so i can start making isk...rofl. Now keep up the good work and DON"T STOP MAKING NULL SEC EVEN MORE JUICY THAN IT WILL BE. sounds like your dropped the ball before on the upgrades but im confident you will make it awesome.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:14:00 -
[160]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 18/11/2009 19:15:07
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
It's a massive misconception that anomalies are not profitable. As said before, the top ones (which you'll have permanently available through the top tier upgrades) isk for isk match the most profitable missions, and certainly blow ratting out of the water.
Added to that, we're looking at more ways to improve on the planned content, hopefully building on the foundation we're laying now.
I've ran about 30 CA's over the years and every single of one them was about 1/3 as useful as running a level 4 mission and took about the same amount of time. They are useless pointless, unsafe ,****ty and totally random as to what you get out of them. If you understood just how ****ing bad they were compared to a mission you might care but your sitting up in your ivory tower now that you work for ccp. But hey its not like our opinion or practical experince make any difference you idiots are CCP makes all the decision like CCP Nohz and ****ing over ships are a wim just because you can.
Look at how stupid you are. Try actually reading the posts next time. These are not the random quality "30 anomalies you have run over the years".
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
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Gramtar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:17:00 -
[161]
BS belt rat bounties are roughly:
500K 650K 800K 950K 1.1M 1.25M 1.4M 1.55M 1.7M 1.85M
When ratting in good truesec (Delve), I clear every spawn with rats below 1.25M, and every spawn where the total is less than 3M (sometimes higher).
Ratting income is highly variable. "Pruning" spawns to get good values up can take 2-4 hours. What I consider to be "good" ratting income (bounties alone) is about 15M isk/hour. You can earn as little as 5-10M/hour just being unlucky in a perfect truesec system. The most I ever made was in a high belt count system with 10+ spawns up all worth in excess of 4M isk. In one hour, I made 42M isk in bounties. It took me about 5 hours of ratting to get the spawns to that point. I've never come close to that value before or since. 20M/hour bounties can be accomplished in perfect truesec, but with ratting mechanics the way they are now you have to "inherit" a pruned system from someone in an earlier timezone or get lucky.
I'm very skeptical about Cosmic Anomalies even approaching ratting income, given that the bounties per ship are about 1/2, they drop poor loot and aren't worth the time to salvage. That said, I'm willing to test them if CCP will put up the changes on Sisi - make all outposts/conquerable stations Military V, and let players go to town and test the hell out of it. No downside to doing that, unless the intention is to hide how horrible the upgrades are until this is live.
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Illectroculus Defined
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:17:00 -
[162]
Originally by: adriaans
the infrastructure hubs are 750 000 m3...
We should take bets on how many freighters get ganked in the first week of december.
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EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:18:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Look at how stupid you are. Try actually reading the posts next time. These are not the random quality "30 anomalies you have run over the years".
read the thread moron this has been addressed
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orkorde
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:35:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Zardock Second and this is my game-breaker really, if everyone has a uber upgraded system to make tons of isk in, then what incentive is there to invade and take over other people's space?
I don't imagine the new rules will stop griefing for the sake of griefing. At the very least, if people have a good source of income, won't that just mean buying more ships for roams or defense)?
I assume there will still be strategic locations that people will fight over (possibly even new ones with the impact on jump bridge networks), old scores people want to settle, groups wanting to create a new home for themselves, etc. There will still be clusters of resource rich locations that are worth fighting over.
Even if the expansion does reduce the amount of sov wars - I wonder if we will see less NAPs, and more neighbours like Providence and AAA.
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:42:00 -
[165]
This system sucks and everyone knows it.
All it's doing is replacing Pos's with other items, that take longer to kill.....
Wooooo lots of fun.
There is nothing allowing a small sized group to do anything against a hardened target without placing the equivalent of a large pos into their system announcing, "Hey over here, we just threw down this big ass thing and we totally can't defend it because you outnumber us 100:1"
Awesome job replacing a boring system, with a more complex boring system that still doesn't allow anyone without a 50+ man fleet to do jack against an opponent except blow up their ships. (Which is what we do anyway for fun)
Originally by: F'nog
Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down.
Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S |
Retar Aveymone
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:45:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Megan Maynard This system sucks and everyone knows it.
All it's doing is replacing Pos's with other items, that take longer to kill.....
Wooooo lots of fun.
There is nothing allowing a small sized group to do anything against a hardened target without placing the equivalent of a large pos into their system announcing, "Hey over here, we just threw down this big ass thing and we totally can't defend it because you outnumber us 100:1"
Awesome job replacing a boring system, with a more complex boring system that still doesn't allow anyone without a 50+ man fleet to do jack against an opponent except blow up their ships. (Which is what we do anyway for fun)
did you really think that a group outnumbered 100 to one should be able to take sov? I mean seriously that's just absurd
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:45:00 -
[167]
Originally by: teji
Originally by: CCP Soundwave It's a massive misconception that anomalies are not profitable.
They most certainly aren't profitable on TQ. That is no misconception. It looks like you have changed them on SiSi so we'll see how you've done in making them actually competitive to other activities.
Quote: As said before, the top ones (which you'll have permanently available through the top tier upgrades) isk for isk match the most profitable missions, and certainly blow ratting out of the water.
Oh, ok so there still isn't any reason to not do level 4 missions in empire instead of grinding for standings which decay if you go on vacation for a few days. Imagine the outrage if your empire standings decayed if you didn't log on for a few days. That would be pretty funny.
Does the entire population of your core systems frequently go on vacations of at least 4 days?
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Hamish Nuwen
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:47:00 -
[168]
Originally by: CCP Abathur Upkeep Costs
TCU: 6m ISK / day Jump Bridge: 10m ISK / day Cyno Generators: 2m ISK / day Cyno Jammers: 20m ISK / day Capital Ship Assembly Arrays: 1m ISK / day
And the cost per day of Infrastructure Hub?
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:52:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Gramtar 5. Some questions about SBUs that remain unanswered: a) What roles, if any, are required to anchor/online them? b) Is there a limit that can be dropped in a system per alliance or per gate? c) Is there a limit on the number of SBUs an alliance can deploy in a given day? d) If alliance A anchors an SBU, can someone in alliance B online it? If not, I can see these being deployed defensively to "block" gates from being assaulted and SBU's onlined.
I get the answers from the test server and the feedback thread on the test server forums.
a) no idea b) one SBU per gate, that is the only limit c) no idea, but I don't think there is a limit d) everyone can online an offline SBU, that corp gets then ownership of that SBU
I have some questions about prices. Not the upkeep prices. But the prices to buy those TCU, IHubs and especially the SBU's. How much do they cost? Are they npc sold only or will there be blueprints so that players can build them?
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Ex Mudder
Gallente Oberon Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:55:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Nightbird My question concerns jump bridges and their associated costs:
Quote: TCU: 6m ISK / day Jump Bridge: 10m ISK / day Cyno Generators: 2m ISK / day Cyno Jammers: 20m ISK / day Capital Ship Assembly Arrays: 1m ISK / day
Modules like Jammers, Beacons and CSAA are things that are solo-system only. You live in a system, invest in the TCU, rat and mine the hell out of it, decide you want to drop an outpost egg, put up a beacon for your caps and a jammer to keep the bad guys out.
Bridges, on the other hand, are unique in that they require both an end point and a starting point... in order for one of these things to work, you need both a start point and an end point.... which essentially doubles all the associated costs.
You need to pay to claim 2 systems worth of Sov (2x TCUs) and then pay what is essentially TWICE for the single "bridge" connection.
Would it not make more sense to reduce by half the cost of the bridge, so that you're paying 10 mil for 2-system set, as opposed to 20mil per 2-system set.
I understand and agree with the idea of incremental costs of ownership, but at this price the bridge seems to be "double dipping".
Keep up the hard (and often thankless!) work.
Cheers, Nightbird
On a related question, has is been confirmed that capitals can no longer used Jump Bridges, or has that changed? I also take it that upgrades no longer require the presence of outposts?
300 Mil month (bridges) + 180 mil / month (Sov) + 300 mil / month (Fuel) + 600 mil / month (jammers) times at least 3 systems is a lot of Iskies if you can't get your caps in to protect yourself.
Less than 3 main systems and JBs become even less of a deal.
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Nobani
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 20:04:00 -
[171]
What is the advantage of claiming Sov in a system? I.e. what does the 6m/day buy you, without an iHub or other upgrade?
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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2009.11.18 20:12:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Nobani What is the advantage of claiming Sov in a system? I.e. what does the 6m/day buy you, without an iHub or other upgrade?
good ole' 25% fuel savings and probably the service of receiving alliance mails if someone errects a tower *shrug* - putting the gist back into logistics |
something somethingdark
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Posted - 2009.11.18 20:38:00 -
[173]
ehehe you sayd errect
but now : Dear CCP
What influence does True Sec have ?
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Mr Opinions
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Posted - 2009.11.18 20:40:00 -
[174]
Edited by: Mr Opinions on 18/11/2009 20:42:03
Why do the military upgrades get instant respawns, while the industry ones have to wait 12 hours or until DT?
If people want to go nuts with mini-profession sites or mine the special ore belts 24/7, let them do that. Give them instant respawn like the military ones.
Also, does the Quantum Flux Generator do anything more than increase the WH chances? i.e. do you get a higher probability of the highest WH classes?
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Elassus Herron
Caldari Construction Cabal Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
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Posted - 2009.11.18 20:53:00 -
[175]
Well, I have to say I'm quite happy with the changes/improvements you've made. Assuming an alliance took the time to make all the carebear upgrades (mining, professions, CAs, and all the NPC ones), even a mediocre system could support 20-40 pilots active (I'm totally making that number up out of thin air, but it seems roughly right). That works for me.
I do want to know, however (and it's already been asked): what benefit would an alliance receive from neuts or blues using these sites? Is there going to be some system of taxation implemented at the alliance/executive corp level? Otherwise, NRDS alliances (such as the one I support) have little incentive to invest in them.
And deploying upwards of 20 cloaky pilots to park in CAs seems a pretty ineffective use of their time vs. the potential damage they are doing by preventing respawns.
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Agent Known
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Posted - 2009.11.18 20:56:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Mr Opinions Edited by: Mr Opinions on 18/11/2009 20:42:03
Why do the military upgrades get instant respawns, while the industry ones have to wait 12 hours or until DT?
If people want to go nuts with mini-profession sites or mine the special ore belts 24/7, let them do that. Give them instant respawn like the military ones.
Also, does the Quantum Flux Generator do anything more than increase the WH chances? i.e. do you get a higher probability of the highest WH classes?
They probably restricted the respawn time of hidden belts because it would crash the mineral market in short order. The prices are based on how difficult it is to find these minerals; if you remove the rarity, all the prices will drop. At least, that's what the economical impact will be. The absolute floor is insurance, but there's no saying what would happen after that.
As far as I know, only the wormhole chance is increased while the actual class of the wormhole remains random and based on where it's found (don't 0.0 WHs lead to class 3 and up anyway?). On another note, I also have an annoying sig.
inaftertimeflux |
Nairb Ecrep
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Posted - 2009.11.18 21:00:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Elassus Herron Well, I have to say I'm quite happy with the changes/improvements you've made. Assuming an alliance took the time to make all the carebear upgrades (mining, professions, CAs, and all the NPC ones), even a mediocre system could support 20-40 pilots active (I'm totally making that number up out of thin air, but it seems roughly right). That works for me.
I do want to know, however (and it's already been asked): what benefit would an alliance receive from neuts or blues using these sites? Is there going to be some system of taxation implemented at the alliance/executive corp level? Otherwise, NRDS alliances (such as the one I support) have little incentive to invest in them.
And deploying upwards of 20 cloaky pilots to park in CAs seems a pretty ineffective use of their time vs. the potential damage they are doing by preventing respawns.
I'm very curious about this as well. I'd be interested to see what people think of a "system tax" where the corp that owns the system has the ability to levy taxes. I discussed it at the bottom of page 5. It could be good stuff, and could help alliances replace the isk lost from moons. It would also allows people like CVA to operate, who admittedly would be shafted otherwise.
Also not to be corny, but by taxing people in their system, it would truly give people "Dominion" over their space.
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Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.18 21:00:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Mr Opinions Also, does the Quantum Flux Generator do anything more than increase the WH chances? i.e. do you get a higher probability of the highest WH classes?
as well as whatever determines wether its a Kspace to Kspace WH or a 0.0 to High sec WH ?
has the hub got a price per day ?
will the profession site magnet thingy also increase the likely hood or a Ladar site or is it limited to mag/radar ? also have the sites been improved as scanning for a site and finding 1x unit of TII salvage and some crappy normal salvage is beyond lame.
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Needa3
Minmatar BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2009.11.18 21:03:00 -
[179]
So are these issues staying in the game or is CCP NOZH (aka CCP i-don't-know-the-game)going to mess the whole thing up again?
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Nobani
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 21:05:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Agent Known They probably restricted the respawn time of hidden belts because it would crash the mineral market in short order.
Mineral costs are pretty close to the insurance floor right now. For example, Hurricanes give 25.5M in insurance net, lowest hull cost is at 26.8M according to eve-central. Thrasher gives 525k insurance net, lowest hull cost is at 606k.
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thisisnotmikaldrey
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Posted - 2009.11.18 21:08:00 -
[181]
. .. also is there any real chance of having the TCU/BCU/IHUB + upgrades manufacturable instead of seeding in CONCORD stations as an isk/time/logistics sink.
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Soleil Fournier
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.11.18 21:09:00 -
[182]
I like the improvements. Here are a few things:
Why have a decay index? I don't like the decay because it essentially forces players to grind, rather than encourage them to use the system. The lack of money should be the encouragement, rather than "well I already have enough money so I'd like to go and do X instead of sitting here grinding....but if I go and do that, I'll lose profitability in this system....so might as well just sit here and grind."
And, most wars last for months. Say we're successful in a war....but afterwords all of our levels have decayed! We just won a war, should be sky high, then realize our space decayed to a level that can't support us.
So...please remove it or make the decay go down 1 level after 3 weeks or so.
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Mr Opinions
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Posted - 2009.11.18 21:10:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Agent Known
Originally by: Mr Opinions Edited by: Mr Opinions on 18/11/2009 20:42:03
Why do the military upgrades get instant respawns, while the industry ones have to wait 12 hours or until DT?
If people want to go nuts with mini-profession sites or mine the special ore belts 24/7, let them do that. Give them instant respawn like the military ones.
Also, does the Quantum Flux Generator do anything more than increase the WH chances? i.e. do you get a higher probability of the highest WH classes?
They probably restricted the respawn time of hidden belts because it would crash the mineral market in short order. The prices are based on how difficult it is to find these minerals; if you remove the rarity, all the prices will drop. At least, that's what the economical impact will be. The absolute floor is insurance, but there's no saying what would happen after that.
It takes a lot more than that to crash the minerals market. I suspect that if you leave it at the level of 12 hours or DT, you won't see many industry upgrades in use.
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Pointfive
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Posted - 2009.11.18 21:31:00 -
[184]
Are the loot, salavage, and bounty tables for anomaly rats still crap?
Is lp/loot/salavage factored into this mission comparison?
You say is better than warping around belts, what will solve me warping into anomalies that people are already using? If i have 20 anomalies up and 20 people in a system running them i have a 19/20 chance of going to a full anomaly.
Do you have any numbers on the income from these anomalies? Everyone i know that has run them has said they are LESS than level 4 income.
Whats the point of making all space the same in the end? Why should i want someone elses space?
Is weeks of grinding for level 4 income goign to drive anyone out from empire to get what they already have?
Have you thought through the fact that having more complexes spawning will just make them worth less and less?
If many systems have the worhomle upgrade, dont they just start to cancel each other out?
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Orthaen
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Posted - 2009.11.18 21:45:00 -
[185]
Edited by: Orthaen on 18/11/2009 21:50:18 Edited by: Orthaen on 18/11/2009 21:47:30
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: The Mittani That said, having to haul 200 freighter-loads of crap from Empire in only one week during the grace period is terrible. If the size of hubs could be reduced a bit, or the grace period extended, that'd be nice. GS has a fairly compact little empire close to hisec, I shudder to think what far-flung alliances such as Atlas, AAA and the dronies will have to suffer through.
Why would you want to have 200 I-Hubs? Are you perhaps planning on migrating the whole EVE population to your territory to fulfill some kind of uber-carebear fantasy?
You're only going to need some 40-60 of them at most.
Apparely you dont need anything but ihub to make sov and all the other stuff work now eh? Did you even look at all the other upgrade mods required to get systems anywhere close to what they are today?
Stop the stupid, please. You dont need an ihub for sov. At all. 100% optional. You need a TCU. Good thing CCP is putting one of those in every single claimed 0.0 system for free. So...you don't need...anything, to get sov to where it is today. Cool. A system with 0 upgrades will be identical to a system with the current system. If you choose to drop a cyno jammer in every system, thats your choice I guess. If its such a big deal, set up a few temporary jump bridges to get freighters within a short distance of every system. That was hard, huh? Oh yeah, and the goal of this expansion is to make you fatties shrink down, even if it will fail miserably at that goal.
And again, for the 15th time, in every single dominion thread. 0.0 IS NOT FOR MAXIMIZING ISK/HOUR! It has never been, it will never be. 0.0 is about FUN. It's about owning space, and kicking the ass of anyone and everyone that ****es you off. Its about doing whatever you want to do in eve. Thats what games are for. FUN. Does your poor shriveled goon-heart not remember what it is to log in to EVE and have a good time?
Move to jita and become a trader for ****s sake, and enjoy making the maximum amount of isk/hour the game offers. Also, stop *****ing.
edit time: For the many lemmings jumping on the "I won't know if someone is in an anomaly!!!!!!" This is entirely different from belts right now, which send out a system wide warning any time someone is ratting in them. I have an idea. Try communication. Ask. Use words, and acknowledge the fact that multiplayer games are occasionally designed to reward cooperation. Even if that cooperation is as a simple as "Hey, what anomalies are being run right now?"
Quote:
Is there anything that will delay some of these sites from showing up during the course of the day, or are those of us in the US with euro alliance mates just S.O.L for mining in the near future? How much time would it take roughly to mine out a site with four or five hulks?
Once the military section of the hub is upgraded to Level 5, do you get 20 level 5 CA's or 5 level 1, 5 level 2, 5 level 3, etc.?
They have compared these belts to w-space belts. You don't mine out w-space belts, it just doesn't happen, not with a 10 man, orca boosted hulk fleet mining 23/7. I don't think you have to worry about these being cleared out in a single day.
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Peryner
University of Caille
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Posted - 2009.11.18 21:58:00 -
[186]
cool, I would rather had seen level 4 agents in 0.0 but it looks really good : )
just take one thing into account for a second... If or when you ever release agents in 0.0 space.. would you be doing so on TOP of the sites? would that be way to much money? If the agents gave more money than the sites would people stop running them? If the agents don't pay enough would they never be used??
Here is my solution to future proof the agents in 0.0 idea : ) Make them real missions!
But... wait.. what? real missions?
ok hear me out. Agents in 0.0 could be set up by alliance members.
Kinda doing the same role as contracts.. but cooler : )
So you could set up delievery missions. And mining missions. So there could am mission to mine ice. The reward is paid out of the alliance wallet. Then there could be a mission to deliever said ice to another system. There could be missions to fuel POS.
Maybe whenever a STOP (sorry still stuck on old terms :P) is planted a new agent could spawn automatically, thus giving incentive to the carebears to defend the system. The Allaince could set the reward pay out.
I don't know.. I'm just saying make sure agents don't do the same thing as what you've desided on for this expansion.
: )
and thank you for making 0.0 more profitable than high sec.. I hope.
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Honest Smedley
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Posted - 2009.11.18 22:01:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Honest Smedley on 18/11/2009 22:03:18 CCP: Don't front-load the cost entirely upon the TCU. Split it 5/3 million isk per day on the TCU/iHub.
Why?
The iHub is a defensive structure, like it or not, as it makes conquest of a system considerably more time consuming with one than without. If you're going to price things so low as to continue having alliance sprawl anyway, at least make clearing out the unattended 'outer ring' of a 0.0 empire less of a mind-numbing experience.
tl;dr Killing TCUs is much quicker than killing TCUs + iHubs. Make alliances pay for that defensive upgrade.
PS: Make jump bridges cost more please.
Edit: Units mean things. Use the right ones.
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Nazdreg
The Maverick Navy IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.18 22:16:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Honest Smedley
PS: Make jump bridges cost more please.
My understanding is that jump bridges will also continue to require a large POS, a Jump Bridge module and it to all be fueled. This adds to the cost as well.
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EvilweaselFinance
Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 22:23:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Peryner
But... wait.. what? real missions?
ok hear me out. Agents in 0.0 could be set up by alliance members.
Kinda doing the same role as contracts.. but cooler : )
would you pubbies stop suggesting this stupid, stupid idea it has never been a good one and never will be
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Kernok
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Posted - 2009.11.18 22:39:00 -
[190]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
The anomalies available increase in quality with the upgrades. So at level five, you will have more and better anomalies available. There are some low level ones in there as well that can be done by relatively young players, so the benefits aren't restricted to older players.
"some low level ones as well" how many? is it still a mixed bag just a bit less so?
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
It's a massive misconception that anomalies are not profitable. As said before, the top ones (which you'll have permanently available through the top tier upgrades) isk for isk match the most profitable missions, and certainly blow ratting out of the water.
Added to that, we're looking at more ways to improve on the planned content, hopefully building on the foundation we're laying now.
is it possible for faction and officers to spawn in anomalies or for hauler spawns in the mining ones? if so are they there at the start or do they come after clearing it? how long after clearing it?
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Xyclon B
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Posted - 2009.11.18 22:44:00 -
[191]
Where can I find an updated list of costs to ONLINE the new sov structures?
For instance it costs 84,000,000 ISK to online a TCU, this comes out of the corp wallet rather than the alliance wallet. What about the other structures like the SBU and Infrastructure Hubs? Do they have an initial cost to online them?
Also, what is the upkeep cost for the Infrastructure Hub? It wasn't listed in the Dev Blog, does that mean there isn't any?
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Daln'oboi
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Posted - 2009.11.18 22:58:00 -
[192]
Edited by: Daln''oboi on 18/11/2009 23:02:10
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
3. We have not been able to re-do POSs as of right now, but hopefully we will be able to accomodate them better to their new role in the future. Their vulnerability, especially in terms of building supercaps, is intended.
Could you kindly tell us, explicitly, what will happen with current sov-level based POS fuel bonus, in Dominion?
Edit: retracted - answered in the comments thread for the previous Abathur blog, it's 25% flat fuel bonus for POSes in system with your sov.
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c0rn1
Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.11.18 23:04:00 -
[193]
one question:
how does a EU or US timezone alliance want to take an outpost of off a US or EU timezone alliance? with a 2h diversion and no chance to kite it?
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ...
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Baljos Arnjak
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Posted - 2009.11.18 23:04:00 -
[194]
Here's a question that I haven't seen considered yet. Can combat scanner probes find CA's?
If they CAN then you can tell if a CA is occupied or not.
1. Launch probe set to max range to find all CA's in the scan area. 2. Since you always get 100% hits on CA's, you can go down to min range/max strength to see if anyone is in there 3a. If there is no one there, then right-click - warp 3b. If there is someone there, then move to the next hit on the list. Shouldn't take more than 20-30 seconds per CA, but it would get old fast if you are always find occupied CA's.
If combat probes can't find CA's, then carry both core and combat probes. Once you locate all the CA's, switch to the combat probes and check to see if anyone is there.
Just a thought for those who are worried about constantly running into CA's that are already occupied.
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.18 23:05:00 -
[195]
The old ISK values were the only reason the new system could be called better over the current one, and now they're gone.
Given how much of a direct economic impact this will have on the game (isk sinks and all that), I would be very interested in hearing what your chief economist has to say on the matter, assuming he was consulted.
Quote: Changed the reinforcement variance timers on Outposts and Infrastructure Hubs from four hours to two hours.
And I disagree with this change, more variance would've been a good thing. Or if you're going to keep it at two hours, the timer should only be an estimate and the real exit time should not be revealed. This type of mechanic helps in the prevention of blobs.
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Black Omne
Caldari House Of BlackStar Semper-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.11.18 23:10:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Sellmewarez First of all, thanks CCP for listening to us all.
These changes are definately a step in the right direction. Its still not perfect by any stretch and theres a few things that don't appear to quite add up but at least its more of a solid base to work from.
This of course can be changed based on feedback and testing in the future, which at least we know is happening now
I agree totally, this is a step in the right direction. But having I-HUBS only seeded in empire, and being 750,000 m3 is going to restrict the people who can actually move them to the large alliances with Titan Jump Portals and existing Jump Bridge Networks. A small/medium alliance, or an alliance without these things has a pretty poor chance of escorting a freighter far into 0.0 carrying *1* hub. The existing power blocks will have a huge advantage during the grace period to stock up on hubs.
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Zastrow
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 23:25:00 -
[197]
Hello Abathur and Soundwave. I enjoy your posting and I believe you should post more. In fact, I go so far as to suggest you never stop posting.
This is much better information on the rewards of building up 0.0 than chronotis' trainwreck of a blog. My one point I want to make is that with R64s being nerfed, alliances will probably have to raise taxes to maintain alliance income, so please keep tax rates in mind when doing calculations for 0.0 individual isk/hour generation and ensure that it is still lucrative enough to make people want to live in 0.0 and not run L4s on alts in safety.
xoxo Hugs and kisses
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
OzDeaDMeaT
Gallente The Goodies
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Posted - 2009.11.18 23:35:00 -
[198]
when will we be able to try these new features on the test server? Eve-au.com News Reporter |
Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.18 23:43:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 18/11/2009 23:42:46
Originally by: OzDeaDMeaT when will we be able to try these new features on the test server?
They wont ever be because you have to gain sov and have these stupid things running for 100+ days to actually see any of these kinds of improvements so its only avaliable in theory and you will never get to test or see anything before its live. CCP is a bunch of liars and it wont work like they are saying but it will be far too late then.
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Killljoy
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Posted - 2009.11.19 00:01:00 -
[200]
Entrapment
These are chance-based on signatures to gain access to DED complexes. Every level of upgrade increases your chances of finding both a signature and a higher level DED complex. Upon completion of running the site, there is the possibility of finding another one (no waiting until next downtime).
Will this work in the drone regions?
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.11.19 00:18:00 -
[201]
At this point, I like most of the changes being made. However, I (like others) have a serious concern about the massive threat of docking games vis-a-vis sovereignty wars. The likelihood of entire capital fleets -- up to motherships! -- playing docking games to get instant free repairs makes me shudder.
Please consider fixing docking games as soon as possible to address this issue. Here is a suggestion that I've made previously and have reposted as a candidate fix for Dominion Docking Games:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1216618
As a more minor issue, I agree with those who are disappointed by the downtime-triggered respawns including in some of the new mechanics (as well as existing mechanics). Instead of respawning at DT, consider queuing the respawn to occur at a pre-calculated time along the lines of 12 hours +/- 6 hours (ie, 6-18 hours). If there is a chance of respawn each DT, run the calculations in advance do determine the number of DTs until the next 'hit', then replace the last DT with the above 12 hours +/-6 relative to 'now'.
This would eliminate post-DT farming of certain things and would continuously rotate which TZs got new spawns.
-- Becq Starforged
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
Titan Pilot
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.11.19 00:19:00 -
[202]
Step in the right direction. But honestly...
Gents, its time to listen to the girl sitting in the corner of the boardroom, you know the one with the clipboard, the one that is probably smarter than everyone else?
She said, just make 0.0 richer beyond belief and they will come. They will line up and they will fight and they will enjoy themselves.
Just do it for heavens sake and stop with this incremental baby steps. Make this epic, make this expansion make people want to get out of their mission running ships and come....
Throw caution to the wind and make the carebears come....
<spoiler> I made up the boardroom scenario to make a point </spoiler>
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Sun Ra
The Water Margin Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.19 01:01:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Dianabolic Soundwave dear boy, I have a question with regards your anomalies:
Have CCP done any number crunching as to how much isk would be generated through a fully upgraded system? 20 insta-spawning plex's sounds, to me, like an awful lot of cash flooding in to the system. Knowing just how much my corp alone could milk out of these I would not be surprised to see at least 500m PER DAY being milked out of these systems in pure bounties.
How is this going to affect the economy of EvE? Just running on "doily maths" this is going to lead to MASSIVE inflation, isn't it? Making the isk people do have, now, completely worthless within 100days when everyone becomes a billionaire from npc'ing?
Has any consideration been given to follow the drone region model, whereby you don't get any bounties (or certainly a vastly reduced one) but the meta-drop levels are increased dramatically? Or increased salvage? The cost of upgrading these systems to handle this look to be around ~1bn per month - using the above that's just two days of npc'ing for a corp, the rest going back in to empire to further inflate prices of *stuff*.
I sincerely do hope that some serious consideration has been given to this isk-tap because in all the notes I've seen for dominion there is nowhere near the kind of isk-sink that would be required to balance out such as HUGE influx of isk.
Thanks in advance of an answer that isn't an anomaly!
CCP gave in to lazy whiners dood
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Killljoy
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Posted - 2009.11.19 01:09:00 -
[204]
Edited by: Killljoy on 19/11/2009 01:09:49 The decay of indices takes place gradually, but if all of a particular activity-based index completely stops, you can expect to lose one level of an index approximately every four days.
Will the current upgrades continue to work if the activity level drops below the installed upgrade?
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Sun Ra
The Water Margin Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.19 01:10:00 -
[205]
Really it should cost more, couple of class 5/6 WH's a month can cover costs easy
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zacuis
Great Big Research
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Posted - 2009.11.19 01:42:00 -
[206]
I strongly suggest that ccp upgrades some systems to lvl 5 in all levels so we can see what we are getting. altho the mining upgrade sounds nice ish, im still very unimpressed by the npcing upgrade.
sound wave u seem convinced the the top tier anomaly's are better than we think but my experience of them differs (i admit ive not ran them since they were first introduced). i`d very much like the chance to test them on sisi.
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Darth Sith
Genbuku. Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.11.19 01:43:00 -
[207]
Edited by: Darth Sith on 19/11/2009 01:45:41 Was loving it up until I came to the hidden asteroid belts respawning from at DT. What is to stop the same old issue we run into all the time in North American time zones where by the time we log in and warp to a belt all of the roids are mined and only crap is left over ?
can we not have it so 50% spawn at 12 hr intervals ? That would address TZ based access in one shot.
At first glance .. Awesome sauce slathered over all the rest of it though ;)but I am going back to re-read everything in detail just in case :)
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Switowski
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Posted - 2009.11.19 02:05:00 -
[208]
Few things here... Sounds like a good patch, a few worried people should be a bit less worries...CVA in particular, past the basic defences of the system - ie owning sovereignty and having an i-hub not having to pay anything for the indices upgrades means that although they are not earning as much from their space as other alliances, they are not paying to have this option available. Plus with the most outpost-heavy sovereignty they just became the hardest alliance to wipe out (i presume the only reason for this being the first post since dominion blogs started coming out that hasn't included official statements from CVA). Secondly there seems to be a lot of people saying 'a few people running level 4s will cover this in a couple of days'...no exact quote but the idea is there...since when has anyone not in a small corp given their entire earnings of an hour+ to their corp...especially at an alliance level? Thirdly, the way you have dealt with time-zone ping-pong is magical, it forces alliances to either branch their alliance out to encompass different timezones (obviously reducing the amount of people they can field in one massive blob) or suffer because of it Anomalies i will reserve judgement until i see something...preferably they should pay either a reliable high end lvl 4 income or just above lvl 4 income to cover the increased risk, but the likelihood of that is low.
The only problem i foresee is the motivation to take somebody elses territory, other than the eternal 'for sh*ts and giggles' Military superpowers are not going to want to give up the empire-adjacent high-POS count, relatively secure systems for care-bearville. Especially in the current coalition system.
My personal suggestion is random eve-mails being sent saying 'so and so has attacked your system, war has been declared' |
William Caldon
Caldari Golden Cross Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.11.19 02:06:00 -
[209]
Edited by: William Caldon on 19/11/2009 02:09:21 Edited by: William Caldon on 19/11/2009 02:06:38
Originally by: Nightbird My question concerns jump bridges and their associated costs:
Quote: TCU: 6m ISK / day Jump Bridge: 10m ISK / day Cyno Generators: 2m ISK / day Cyno Jammers: 20m ISK / day Capital Ship Assembly Arrays: 1m ISK / day
Modules like Jammers, Beacons and CSAA are things that are solo-system only. You live in a system, invest in the TCU, rat and mine the hell out of it, decide you want to drop an outpost egg, put up a beacon for your caps and a jammer to keep the bad guys out.
Bridges, on the other hand, are unique in that they require both an end point and a starting point... in order for one of these things to work, you need both a start point and an end point.... which essentially doubles all the associated costs.
You need to pay to claim 2 systems worth of Sov (2x TCUs) and then pay what is essentially TWICE for the single "bridge" connection.
Would it not make more sense to reduce by half the cost of the bridge, so that you're paying 10 mil for 2-system set, as opposed to 20mil per 2-system set.
I understand and agree with the idea of incremental costs of ownership, but at this price the bridge seems to be "double dipping".
Keep up the hard (and often thankless!) work.
Cheers, Nightbird
No, my opinion of Jump Bridges is they need a serious nerf. Too many alliances depend on these modules to hold their space. I've felt that it should be either a higher isk cost or some sort of vulnerability beyond current. Now, you'll have to think of how many you want and how they'll be setup. Not spam-to-death. (yes, I am kidding about that last part)
@dude above: a lot of wars have been fought over things other thank isk/hour. IE: BOB VS GOONS. You cannot seriously tell me that Bob fought Goons over Goon's "valuable" space....There are plenty of other examples.
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.11.19 02:07:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Retar Aveymone
Originally by: Megan Maynard This system sucks and everyone knows it.
All it's doing is replacing Pos's with other items, that take longer to kill.....
Wooooo lots of fun.
There is nothing allowing a small sized group to do anything against a hardened target without placing the equivalent of a large pos into their system announcing, "Hey over here, we just threw down this big ass thing and we totally can't defend it because you outnumber us 100:1"
Awesome job replacing a boring system, with a more complex boring system that still doesn't allow anyone without a 50+ man fleet to do jack against an opponent except blow up their ships. (Which is what we do anyway for fun)
did you really think that a group outnumbered 100 to one should be able to take sov? I mean seriously that's just absurd
No, reading comp is important right? I don't want to take sov, I want to be a thorn in someone's side beyond just blowing up ships. But nope, everything is still at pos's or invunerable unless you anchor one/more then one equivalent of a large pos.
Originally by: F'nog
Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down.
Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S |
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Sharp Feather
Gallente POS Builder Inc. Silent Requiem
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Posted - 2009.11.19 02:10:00 -
[211]
Thank you very much CCP for listenning to your players and thank you very much for trying hard to make 0.0(or EVE) a place better to live for pirates as well as carebears or even miners.
I also love that you specified what you changed from the players feedback. Irt should always be that way, the more obvious, the better it is and make some people realise that you guys work hard and try to please your fans at a maximum. It also mean you saw my thread about it, or I just got lucky. :P
TLDR: Keep doing your best even if some people think its not good enough... <3
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Switowski
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Posted - 2009.11.19 02:22:00 -
[212]
Originally by: William Caldon Edited by: William Caldon on 19/11/2009 02:09:21
@dude above: a lot of wars have been fought over things other thank isk/hour. IE: BOB VS GOONS. You cannot seriously tell me that Bob fought Goons over Goon's "valuable" space....There are plenty of other examples.
May have edited the quote a bit wrong...apologies if i did...I guess that would be in the 'sh*ts and giggles' part...admitedy i didn't think of bad diplomacy or someone declaring they are going to take over all of 0.0 and the other guy doesn't exist. My bad but i think this is much less likely now that a lot of alliances are in coalitions
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Isaac Starstriker
Amarr The Confederate Navy Forever Unbound
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Posted - 2009.11.19 02:34:00 -
[213]
Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 19/11/2009 02:34:24
Originally by: Switowski
Originally by: William Caldon Edited by: William Caldon on 19/11/2009 02:09:21
@dude above: a lot of wars have been fought over things other thank isk/hour. IE: BOB VS GOONS. You cannot seriously tell me that Bob fought Goons over Goon's "valuable" space....There are plenty of other examples.
May have edited the quote a bit wrong...apologies if i did...I guess that would be in the 'sh*ts and giggles' part...admitedy i didn't think of bad diplomacy or someone declaring they are going to take over all of 0.0 and the other guy doesn't exist. My bad but i think this is much less likely now that a lot of alliances are in coalitions
Here is some info: CCP cannot change people's behaviors. If everyone wants to be one massive NAP train, then CCP cannot do anything about it (or else the game would be very unfun). They've said this multiple times in the past. So if Goons, -A-, Drone Regions and everyone wants to be one massive happy family, then there is nothing they can do about it.
Nothing whatsoever. (would be boring as hell though...)
--Isaac Signature is now under construction: check back in a couple weeks. Or months....
AMAAR VICTOR!
"You just can't fix stupid"
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Ramman K'arojic
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Posted - 2009.11.19 03:00:00 -
[214]
With respect to how often things Spawn and de spawn.. I dont really care on how often.. I take your best judement..
What do care about and get really Sh*ty about is that always resetting these things on DT means that players who log on say 1 hour before DT are stuffed around and disadvanated
Be creative let these things spawn for 24 but start from a random start time. May be have a period of 6 hours with none.. Or a period with 2.
(PS why your there do this for WH's as well - it would make your TZ poor people less disadvanated)
Ramm
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Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.19 03:11:00 -
[215]
This is certainly a step in the right direction. If King Ark is indeed kingly and is also accompanied some trit refinable royalty, mining might be good to go.
Belt NPCs and complexes still need work. It doesn't matter how many you have; until bounties and loot values increase, the isk/hour ratio will remain unattractive.
Finally, as long as prices are flat regardless of the number of systems owned or the expanse of space, the territory controlled by alliances will not change. We will hold fewer systems but the same territory and you will not be seeing any new faces in 0.0
Colonies and Capitals |
Auron Akarzi
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Posted - 2009.11.19 03:22:00 -
[216]
Now Since This Is a Nice Little Convosation that Seemingly gone off topic on rats i'm gona try and re align it back on topic, So heres a little Table of how much its gona cost you guys to have your space from now on. (each number represents a Million so, 39 = 39,000,000Isk, Also this is calculated for max upgraded Systems)
SystemsDayWeek MonthYear (Millions Of Isk) 139273117014040 278546234028080 3117819351042120 41561092468056160 51951365585070200 62341638702084240 72731911819098280 831221849360112320 9351245710530126360 10390273011700140400 11429300312870154440 12468327614040168480 13507354915210182520 14546382216380196560 15585409517550210600 16624436818720224640 17663464119890238680 18702491421060252720 19741518722230266760 20780546023400280800 21819573324570294840 22858600625740308880 23897627926910322920 24936655228080336960 25975682529250351000 261014709830420365040 271053737131590379080 281092764432760393120 291131791733930407160 301170819035100421200 311209846336270435240 321248873637440449280 331287900938610463320 341326928239780477360 351365955540950491400 361404982842120505440 3714431010143290519480 3814821037444460533520 3915211064745630547560 4015601092046800561600 4115991119347970575640 4216381146649140589680 4316771173950310603720 4417161201251480617760 4517551228552650631800 4617941255853820645840 4718331283154990659880 4818721310456160673920 4919111337757330687960 5019501365058500702000 5119891392359670716040 5220281419660840730080 5320671446962010744120 5421061474263180758160 5521451501564350772200 5621841528865520786240 5722231556166690800280 5822621583467860814320 5923011610769030828360 6023401638070200842400 6123791665371370856440 6224181692672540870480 6324571719973710884520 6424961747274880898560 6525351774576050912600 6625741801877220926640 6726131829178390940680 6826521856479560954720 6926911883780730968760 7027301911081900982800 7127691938383070996840 72280819656842401010880 73284719929854101024920 74288620202865801038960 75292520475877501053000 76296420748889201067040 77300321021900901081080 78304221294912601095120 79308121567924301109160 80312021840936001123200 81315922113947701137240 82319822386959401151280 83323722659971101165320 84327622932982801179360 85331523205994501193400 863354234781006201207440 873393237511017901221480 883432240241029601235520 893471242971041301249560 903510245701053001263600 913549248431064701277640 923588251161076401291680 933627253891088101305720 943666256621099801319760 953705259351111501333800 963744262081123201347840 973783264811134901361880 983822267541146601375920 993861270271158301389960 1003900273001170001404000
So, As you can See, 1 system = 1.17 Billion Isk per Month 10 System's = 11.7 Billion Isk per Month 50 System's = 58.5billion Isk per Month,
Basically what i'm trying to get at is.. Unless your already out there set up and are capable of making those numbers per month. Great!!! Yeah its Cheaper than running all those large POS's all the time... But Remember you Still need those POS's to mine the moons. True less but there still there. Also, Most New Alliance's are no where near cable of generating those numbers, They haven't got a Clue how to. So It sounds like CCP is going for the Elietist aproach to 0.0 sov. Where only the Rich Or Vetrans can live. Nice and Exclusive.
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Auron Akarzi
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Posted - 2009.11.19 03:35:00 -
[217]
Here's another Number for you guys to show how big the isk sink is,
there are currently 3524 Conqurable system's If Everyone of them was claimed and upgraded to max that would be...
137 Billion 436 Million Isk Per Day
962 Billion 052 Million Isk Per Week
4 Trillion 123 Billion 080 Million Isk Per Month
49 Trillion 476 Billion 960 Million Isk Per Year
Big enough Sink for you Sir's?
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Vivian Azure
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Posted - 2009.11.19 03:40:00 -
[218]
Edited by: Vivian Azure on 19/11/2009 03:41:10 Can we please stop to ask about LvL 4 Missions and about personal profits?
20 anomalies with each having some 20 million ISK / hour as they're also increased in value with the upgrades will result in:
20 Million x 20 anomalies = 400 Million ISK / hour x 24 hours = 9.6 billion ISK / day x 28days = 268.8 billion / month
A potential 268.8 billion a month, without even considering mining, complexes or belt-ratting. That's what you get for your alliance and/or your members to split.
Not enough?
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.19 03:44:00 -
[219]
A few things I'd like to talk about.
1. I don't see how this new system really makes 0.0 a more "emergent" environment to be honest. You appear to be making players spend MORE time PVE'ing to actually hold/improve and claim their 0.0 systems.
2. Starbase Control Towers/POS are now suffering from legacy mechanics "functionality creep" and are very clunky in terms of their very diverse roles. For example for moon mining a Titanium moon, should you really need a 10 Million hitpoint structure to do so? In your next "iteration" can you please look to make anchorable structures more specific to their roles or add new structures - For example a dedicated moon mining tower with less hp at much less cost giving more small gang "infrastructure harrasment" targets.
3. Making the ISK making upgrades "free" in terms of costs was a good move, BUT how much will they actually cost? Why can't you also seed blueprints and allow the upgrades to be built? Note: If the upgrades are priced too high, it is a massive barrier for anyone new entering 0.0 (unless they try to conquer existing sov territory). You will have the same "old money" superpowers as now in control of 0.0, without any real chance for others to get a foothold.
4. What real incentive is there for one alliance to actually conquer another alliances space? 10/10 plexes and the like gave people more things to fight over in the past. Now it seems 0.0 is becomming more and more generic with 10/10 plexes possible everywhere along with arkronor belts etc.
I'm falling asleep now typing this so apologies if it makes no sense. Will revisit it tomorrow.
Cheers.
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William Caldon
Caldari Golden Cross Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.11.19 03:47:00 -
[220]
Once again another bunch of numbers about maxed out systems. Did CCP Say you need to max them out: no. Do you have to max them out: no But you want to: yes.
These changes are fine
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Auron Akarzi
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Posted - 2009.11.19 03:48:00 -
[221]
Edited by: Auron Akarzi on 19/11/2009 03:53:30 And Of how much of that actually goes to the allaince that pays for it? Its not like the Exercuter Corps can set an allince wide tax...
CCP Introduce an Alliance wide tax... After all its not like every player in eve is a greedy money grabing self centred *****.
Best i've seen is Alliances having mabey One 100% tax day a month and mabey a small per member fee that gets transfered up to alliance level....
Even then most people avoide NPCing on 100% tax days and the small fee... well... Its small lol (has given up on maths)
And yes you don't have to upgrade them all the way but even the necassary way for most systems the standard is Sov + jammer which is still 780million per system
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Magnum III
Journey On Squad
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Posted - 2009.11.19 03:52:00 -
[222]
I'm thinking the entire reason for this in the 1st place was that POS wars was booooorrrrrrring!!!!
Does this stop that borring and most inportantly,
Does this stop the thing were you only won because your enemy got borred and demoralised and was just tired of defending them selves oe whatever.
If it stops that mindnumbing borring POS war type stuff not to mention the gate camping instead of fighting at the actual objectives because there is a real reason, then I say this is good to go.
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Vivian Azure
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Posted - 2009.11.19 03:53:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Auron Akarzi And Of how much of that actually goes to the allaince that pays for it? Its not like the Exercuter Corps can set an allince wide tax...
CCP Introduce an Alliance wide tax... After all its not like every player in eve is a greedy money grabing self centred *****.
Best i've seen is Alliances having mabey One 100% tax day a month and mabey a small per member fee that gets transfered up to alliance level....
Even then most people avoide NPCing on 100% tax days and the small fee... well... Its small lol (has given up on maths)
It's not the executor corp paying all the sov-bills, but the corps which actually plant the TCUs. So the sov-bill for a system with jammer and jump-bridge is allready covered with 1% corp-tax, if your members do use only half the potential of the fully upgraded system.
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Pointfive
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Posted - 2009.11.19 03:58:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Vivian Azure Edited by: Vivian Azure on 19/11/2009 03:41:10 Can we please stop to ask about LvL 4 Missions and about personal profits?
20 anomalies with each having some 20 million ISK / hour as they're also increased in value with the upgrades will result in:
20 Million x 20 anomalies = 400 Million ISK / hour x 24 hours = 9.6 billion ISK / day x 28days = 268.8 billion / month
A potential 268.8 billion a month, without even considering mining, complexes or belt-ratting. That's what you get for your alliance and/or your members to split.
Not enough?
How about i join the level 4 running alliance with you?
35 Million x infinite missions = infinite Million ISK / hour x 24 hours = infinite isk ISK
Maybe you dont care a bout personal income, but every individual person that actually lives in 0.0 and doesn't afk and spend most of their time making money in empire like you , personal income does matter.
If these changes do make you get ON PAR income with level 4's the most this change will do is make some of the people who dont have level 4s spend their time in 0.0 instead.
Space remains the same, nullsec still not enticing to the majority of the player base, patch changes nothing. Space is going to be even harder to take. So all this does is entrench the large alliances more. Great patch.
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Vivian Azure
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Posted - 2009.11.19 04:04:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Pointfive
Originally by: Vivian Azure Edited by: Vivian Azure on 19/11/2009 03:41:10 Can we please stop to ask about LvL 4 Missions and about personal profits?
20 anomalies with each having some 20 million ISK / hour as they're also increased in value with the upgrades will result in:
20 Million x 20 anomalies = 400 Million ISK / hour x 24 hours = 9.6 billion ISK / day x 28days = 268.8 billion / month
A potential 268.8 billion a month, without even considering mining, complexes or belt-ratting. That's what you get for your alliance and/or your members to split.
Not enough?
How about i join the level 4 running alliance with you?
35 Million x infinite missions = infinite Million ISK / hour x 24 hours = infinite isk ISK
Maybe you dont care a bout personal income, but every individual person that actually lives in 0.0 and doesn't afk and spend most of their time making money in empire like you , personal income does matter.
If these changes do make you get ON PAR income with level 4's the most this change will do is make some of the people who dont have level 4s spend their time in 0.0 instead.
Space remains the same, nullsec still not enticing to the majority of the player base, patch changes nothing. Space is going to be even harder to take. So all this does is entrench the large alliances more. Great patch.
My corp covers all fleet-ships, from Interceptors to Dreadnoughts, so what do I need personal wealth for exactly? And no, we don't have 100% but only 10% tax... astonishing, isn't it?
If your alliance/corp leadership isn't that cooperative with it's membership, then you should consider of leaving your aliance/corp... NO?
If it's all about personal wealth for you, then why do you still live in 0.0 instead of running LvL 4 missions?
And no, I'm still not allowed to post with my main in these forums.
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Jimu Orgas
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.11.19 04:38:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Nye Jaran
Has there been any thought towards implementing a mechanism to drive up the overall TCO in a non-linear fashion as the number of controlled systems increases?
That is a great idea.It would need to be something like first 5 systems are at base cost, then an extra 10% cost for each additional 5 systems, cumulative.
Or scale costs for system improvements inversely with the improvement levels - if you have level 1 for military/industrial/etc it costs alot, but folks who spend the time to bring things to level 4 or 5 across the board save large ISK. This encourages maximum exploitation of each system and higher player density. A formula like (Base Cost) * (1-(0.1*Industrial))* (1-(0.1*Military)) * (1-(0.1*Strategic)). Then raise the base cost for each improvement significantly.
On the whole, I'm quite impressed, CCP - if anomalies can be as lucrative as hisec L4s, this can work.
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Kanatta Jing
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Posted - 2009.11.19 04:39:00 -
[227]
Originally by: L'Artest
Originally by: xttz Edited by: xttz on 18/11/2009 15:55:07 Ok here goes
1. When a system is under attack and a hub is destroyed, progress is preserved by the defender not being able to anchor a new hub until SBUs are destroyed. How is progress preserved for outpost, and what stops the defender retaking and repairing it to gain extra reinforced timers?
2. Will there be any mechanic to build hubs and upgrades from smaller materials, or are players actually expected to haul scores of freighters in under a week just to keep their existing space?
3. Will the sov-based restrictions on starbases be lifted, such as the anchoring limit of 1/5 per day. 3a.Will starbases recieve any form of buff now they are now longer the focus of sov and will be used far less often? Capital ship proliferation since starbases were introduced makes them relatively weak in small numbers, and the starbase defense role is now marginalised. The current stront-based reinforce timer leaves industrial towers such as capital ship arrays hilariously vulnerable to impromptu kiting and constant job interruption.
4. Do you realise how much the recent mothership changes break sov mechanics? *sits a dozen motherships on an outpost* *repairs it* *docks after taking 50m damage* *repairs for free, resumes repping*
please respond to this post
The answer is simple. Thats what titans are for now.
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Kanatta Jing
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Posted - 2009.11.19 05:05:00 -
[228]
Assembled in one post...
Originally by: Hamish Nuwen
Originally by: CCP Abathur Upkeep Costs
TCU: 6m ISK / day Jump Bridge: 10m ISK / day Cyno Generators: 2m ISK / day Cyno Jammers: 20m ISK / day Capital Ship Assembly Arrays: 1m ISK / day
And the cost per day of Infrastructure Hub?
Rolled into the TCU cost
Originally by: something somethingdark ehehe you sayd errect
but now : Dear CCP
What influence does True Sec have ?
How easy it is to upgrade your military index and the chance your ratters can find a Hauler Spawn?
Originally by: Needa3 So are these issues staying in the game or is CCP NOZH (aka CCP i-don't-know-the-game)going to mess the whole thing up again?
Try to remember he's a real person and not just a name on your screen. You'll hurt is feelings or something going on like that.
Originally by: Pointfive Are the loot, salavage, and bounty tables for anomaly rats still crap?
Is lp/loot/salavage factored into this mission comparison?
You say is better than warping around belts, what will solve me warping into anomalies that people are already using? If i have 20 anomalies up and 20 people in a system running them i have a 19/20 chance of going to a full anomaly.
Do you have any numbers on the income from these anomalies? Everyone i know that has run them has said they are LESS than level 4 income.
Whats the point of making all space the same in the end? Why should i want someone elses space?
Is weeks of grinding for level 4 income goign to drive anyone out from empire to get what they already have?
Have you thought through the fact that having more complexes spawning will just make them worth less and less?
If many systems have the worhomle upgrade, dont they just start to cancel each other out?
This is the 4 spawn version, the True Sansha one is 7 spawns.
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Shady McAltface
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Posted - 2009.11.19 06:09:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Vivian Azure My corp covers all fleet-ships, from Interceptors to Dreadnoughts, so what do I need personal wealth for exactly? And no, we don't have 100% but only 10% tax... astonishing, isn't it?
If your alliance/corp leadership isn't that cooperative with it's membership, then you should consider of leaving your aliance/corp... NO?
If it's all about personal wealth for you, then why do you still live in 0.0 instead of running LvL 4 missions?
And no, I'm still not allowed to post with my main in these forums.
Dear god in heaven, please make this troll go away.
1. You claim your corp provides all, yet you still run empire missions. So on the one hand you are telling everyone they don't need personal isk, but you do?????
2. Just because your corp has ship replacement doesn't mean all corps can afford this. Take a small alliance battling to gain ground in 0.0 without years of moon goo to back them up.
3. It's not about getting rich, it's about earning ISK to replace ships (I doubt your corp replaces faction or officer gear). The only thing under debate is whether this ISK should be earnable in 0.0 at a better rate than empire.
4. The only reason for better rate is so that more people will choose 0.0 over empire.
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Altaica Amur
Ichizoku
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Posted - 2009.11.19 06:24:00 -
[230]
This is certainly interesting as a solution and though it seems to heavily favor anomalies as a solution to producing income in 0.0 over other methods. Seeing more exploration content be they DED or salvage sites would have been nice for sheer variety, of course they might be a comparable amount but the chance based mechanics make it all a bit hazy. I'm still a bit concerned on how this will play out for the drone regions but as a whole this seems like a good change from the previous iteration.
Cries about inflation/deflation are a bit silly given that these improvements will primarily be affecting less then 15% of the EVE population, unless there far larger moves to null-sec then anyone has imagined I suspect that overall inflation based on these mechanics is highly unlikely. What might happen though is some changes to specific items that are sourced in some significant fashion from 0.0, namely faction and commander gear which may end up spawning more often in the anomalies being spawned in larger numbers and frequency then ever before.
The result would be more of such items and for the sake of argument lets say there are twice as many faction items produced in 0.0 and this would in turn drive down the price of said items, while many would see this as a big blow to these prices they should also consider the actual state of the faction gear market. Currently it's dominated by the very mission runners that many are complaining 'earn too much' with some people's calculations putting the LP earned through missioning at around 30% of the value of a level 4, supported by the high and currently rising prices of those very items. Given this relationship I'd very much like to see more faction gear hit the market from 0.0 either through more people seeking them out or through higher spawn/drop rates that might help reduce the value of level 4s without nerfing them directly as well as improve the market for the pirate faction ships which should be seeing a lot more PvP with the recent changes made.
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Hrodgar Ortal
Minmatar Ma'adim Logistics
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Posted - 2009.11.19 06:42:00 -
[231]
Seems to look good. 20 anomalies, which by earlier dev posts is about as profitable as lvl4's, so 20 people can run that. 5 belts which can probably have continuously 15 accounts (since few mine with one account) and a heap of other stuff. So probably around 40 people in each system which seems like a good number to me.
Also it is always fun to see the big alliances concern for the smaller who might want to spread their wings...
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Hjakona
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Posted - 2009.11.19 06:46:00 -
[232]
I have a few questions and suggestions. 1# Do Constellation Capitals have any form of benefit in Domination? Lots of SOV4 Constellations out there built only for the SOv4 Bonus. Is that useless now? 2# Any plans to 'nerf' the undocking range on the Outposts that have Huge docking radius? Or somthing else to remove/counter 'undocking games' (MS/Carriers RR Outposts). 3# Any plans to remove T1 loot? This would kill 2 birds with one stone. T1 is buildable by players and as such they should be the only supplyers of T1, most of T1 loot gets refined anyway and in turn lowers mineral prices. T1 Items would be profitable to produce for low level Industrialists, minerals might see a little boost in prices. Missioners would only loose a little income on this. 4# Easy fix for Drone Region. -50% on alloy Drops and give them 50% Pirate-bounty.
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Clansworth
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Posted - 2009.11.19 07:04:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Peryner cool, I would rather had seen level 4 agents in 0.0 but it looks really good : )
just take one thing into account for a second... If or when you ever release agents in 0.0 space.. would you be doing so on TOP of the sites? would that be way to much money? If the agents gave more money than the sites would people stop running them? If the agents don't pay enough would they never be used??
Here is my solution to future proof the agents in 0.0 idea : ) Make them real missions!
But... wait.. what? real missions?
ok hear me out. Agents in 0.0 could be set up by alliance members.
Kinda doing the same role as contracts.. but cooler : )
So you could set up delievery missions. And mining missions. So there could am mission to mine ice. The reward is paid out of the alliance wallet. Then there could be a mission to deliever said ice to another system. There could be missions to fuel POS.
Maybe whenever a STOP (sorry still stuck on old terms :P) is planted a new agent could spawn automatically, thus giving incentive to the carebears to defend the system. The Allaince could set the reward pay out.
I don't know.. I'm just saying make sure agents don't do the same thing as what you've desided on for this expansion.
: )
and thank you for making 0.0 more profitable than high sec.. I hope.
A lot of what you propose with the 'alliance agents' can be done with contracts currently. Set up a bunch of Want to Buy contracts for ores, minerals, whatnot, and, aside from it not specifically spawning a location to source said materials, is essentially what you want. It is also much more free-form, which I think is a good thing.
Intel/Nomad |
Kaydin Versailles
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Posted - 2009.11.19 08:32:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Vivian Azure
Originally by: Pointfive
Originally by: Vivian Azure Edited by: Vivian Azure on 19/11/2009 03:41:10 Can we please stop to ask about LvL 4 Missions and about personal profits?
20 anomalies with each having some 20 million ISK / hour as they're also increased in value with the upgrades will result in:
20 Million x 20 anomalies = 400 Million ISK / hour x 24 hours = 9.6 billion ISK / day x 28days = 268.8 billion / month
A potential 268.8 billion a month, without even considering mining, complexes or belt-ratting. That's what you get for your alliance and/or your members to split.
Not enough?
How about i join the level 4 running alliance with you?
35 Million x infinite missions = infinite Million ISK / hour x 24 hours = infinite isk ISK
Maybe you dont care a bout personal income, but every individual person that actually lives in 0.0 and doesn't afk and spend most of their time making money in empire like you , personal income does matter.
If these changes do make you get ON PAR income with level 4's the most this change will do is make some of the people who dont have level 4s spend their time in 0.0 instead.
Space remains the same, nullsec still not enticing to the majority of the player base, patch changes nothing. Space is going to be even harder to take. So all this does is entrench the large alliances more. Great patch.
My corp covers all fleet-ships, from Interceptors to Dreadnoughts, so what do I need personal wealth for exactly? And no, we don't have 100% but only 10% tax... astonishing, isn't it?
If your alliance/corp leadership isn't that cooperative with it's membership, then you should consider of leaving your aliance/corp... NO?
If it's all about personal wealth for you, then why do you still live in 0.0 instead of running LvL 4 missions?
And no, I'm still not allowed to post with my main in these forums.
In the other Sov thread you stated that your Corp covers only ship loses for specific ships. While I don't necessarily disagree or agree with what you've said, you're still a liar with terrible reading comprehension and even worse argumentative posts.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.11.19 09:27:00 -
[235]
Okay some of the numbers looking better and things are better explained that's good.
However 2 major problems remain.
1. Size of Infrastructure Hubs: Can we at least get these reduced to fit into a jump freighter. As it stands now the bottlenecks are going to prevent anyone from getting a freighter through.
2. NRDS space is threatened. I have an idea for a solution that I've not seen. A system tax. This is a tax on bounties received in the system set by the sovereign of the system and sent to their executor's wallet. Make it from like 1-10%. It also is taken before corp tax is taken so as not to have a corp bump their tax up to 100% and make the sovereign get nothing.
(Would also be nice to have an alliance tax...similar structure 1-10%, it comes out before corp tax but after sovereign tax :)...this would help alliances too :) )
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. -Mitnal |
Infinion
Caldari Endless Destruction BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.11.19 09:39:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Auron Akarzi Now Since This Is a Nice Little Convosation that Seemingly gone off topic on rats i'm gona try and re align it back on topic, So heres a little Table of how much its gona cost you guys to have your space from now on. (each number represents a Million so, 39 = 39,000,000Isk, Also this is calculated for max upgraded Systems)
SystemsDayWeek MonthYear (Millions Of Isk) 139273117014040
5019501365058500702000
1003900273001170001404000
So, As you can See, 1 system = 1.17 Billion Isk per Month 10 System's = 11.7 Billion Isk per Month 50 System's = 58.5billion Isk per Month,
Basically what i'm trying to get at is.. Unless your already out there set up and are capable of making those numbers per month. Great!!! Yeah its Cheaper than running all those large POS's all the time... But Remember you Still need those POS's to mine the moons. True less but there still there. Also, Most New Alliance's are no where near cable of generating those numbers, They haven't got a Clue how to. So It sounds like CCP is going for the Elietist aproach to 0.0 sov. Where only the Rich Or Vetrans can live. Nice and Exclusive.
Now assuming an alliance doesn't need a capital ship assembly array, Jump bridge, Cyno Generator, and Cyno Jammer all together in each system and that they can cyno caps using their cyno ships, a TCU expenditure table would more accurately look like this:
SystemsDayWeekMonthYear 16421682016 212843364032 3181265046048 4241686728064 53021084010080 636252100812096 742294117614112 848336134416128 954378151218144 1060420168020160 1166462184822176 1272504201624192 ... ... ... .... ..... ... ... ... .... ..... 251501050420050400 261561092436852416 271621134453654432 281681176470456448 291741218487258464 301801260504060480 ... ... ... .... ..... ... ... ... .... ..... 452701890756090720 462761932772892736 472821974789694752 482882016806496768 492942058823298784 5030021008400100800 ... ... ... .... ..... ... ... ... .... ..... 70420294011760141120 71426298211928143136 72432302412096145152 73438306612264147168 74444310812432149184 75450315012600151200 ... ... ... .... ..... ... ... ... .... ..... 90540378015120181440 91546382215288183456 92552386415456185472 93558390615624187488 94564394815792189504 95570399015960191520 96576403216128193536 97582407416296195552 98588411616464197568 99594415816632199584 100600420016800201600
sounds pretty manageable to me
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.19 09:52:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Layna Fraggs And how much isk could the same players do in empire running l4's Dianabolic?
I have no idea, Layna, but if the rewards are 500m per day then I would also say those are broken - as I don't run them and have lived / do live in 0.0 I feel it appropriate to just comment on what I know and leave the rest to others.
I have looked a bit what the the top anomalies give in bounties:
- about 30 millions each, plus the loot and salvage (hard to guess the exact amount as the spawns are variable, you can get commanders and faction with larger bounties)
with the right ship (a PvE ship) you will make them in half a hour.
That is a potential of 50 million in isk alone each hour plus loot and salvage.
For potentially 20 players at the same time
The only thing you need to do is to bookmark the location and leave before starting looting, so that the old site despawn and new site spawn.
If all people doing anomalies are in the same fleet you will see where they are in the system map, so people will not enter the same anomaly some other player is doing.
That give a potential of 1 billion/hour in isk for a system with maximum military upgrade from the anomalies alone.
Plus loot and salvage.
It the ista-respawn work correctly the anomalies alone will give more than level 4 missions.
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Lady Aja
Caldari Cobalt Dragon Exploration Company
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Posted - 2009.11.19 09:56:00 -
[238]
Correct me if i am wrong.
wont major alliances who have pets/renters be able to cover tese cost much easier?
and nother thing. top notch anons are not that easy to do solo ( ONE ACCOUNT! not 1 person multiboxing ) if you was not reading this right now? what would you be doing instead of reading my sig?
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Industria Dragous
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Posted - 2009.11.19 10:12:00 -
[239]
Ah the fine print. # Changed the online time of Sovereignty Blockade Units from six hours to three hours. # Changed the reinforcement variance timers on Outposts and Infrastructure Hubs from four hours to two hours.
Not sure I like these 2 changes since it appears to have been made to support the aggressor. The intent as I read early on with this patch was to allow smaller groups to claim space and to cut down on the timezone issue. With these 2 timer reductions the attacker can roll over a system with 2 to 3 gates and no outpost in about 7-8hrs. That is assuming the Infrastructure Hub has about a large POS HP's and resists. With the reinforcement variance timers now falling to a narrower range the Hub would be more likely to fall in a closer time to the attacker. Therefore the defender logs in to find the Hub an SBU are invulnerable an have nothing to do but wait. The SBU should be vulnerable an require a repair in order for the attacker to continue or something. I may not understand the exact timing here but it seems that a smaller window on reinforcement variance with the shorter anchor time will likely limit the small groups to defend in their peak time with even a small amount of space.
Vulnerability states
SBU(s) are vulnerable while being anchored and onlining.
Once an Outpost and/or Infrastructure Hub is reinforced, the SBU(s) enter a parallel reinforcement cycle. That means that the SBU(s) are invulnerable as long as there are no vulnerable structures in system.
If the Outpost and Infrastructure Hub are vulnerable, so is the SBU(s). If the Infrastructure Hub is vulnerable and the outpost is not, then the SBU(s) are vulnerable. If the Outpost and Infrastructure Hub are vulnerable, so is the SBU(s).
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Mrs Snowman
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Posted - 2009.11.19 10:33:00 -
[240]
Making 0.0 more appealing or more "emergent"
I see a lot of people asking about this. Thought I'd give a stab at it.
In my view, the new system doesn't actually encourage new corps/alliances to move into 0.0 by itself! Neither will it encourage highsec carebears to suddenly want to jump into 0.0
I think you have to look at this from the perspective of the CURRENT Sovereignty holding alliances. Now these Alliances like their Pew Pew, they will have CTA's (Call to arms) nearly every day.. this doesn't afford them much opportunity to farm their systems to upgrade them, to make them profitable enough to pay for them.
So to resolve this I feel that these organizations will now accept more 'carebear' style corps into their alliance for the sole purpose of farming for them.
How is this any different than before?
Alliances get corporations knocking on their door all the time, asking to join them. MOST of the time these corps get knocked back, simply because they already have tenants who pay them a rent for occupying their space, or because said alliance knows that the only reason they want to join their fold is to get their greedy paws on their rats.
As you can see from the ISK now required, this is going to require a massive influx of more corps to come help them farm.
There will of course still be a limit to how many more corps/players Alliances will need, but suffice it to say that they will need more!
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Myriand
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Posted - 2009.11.19 10:36:00 -
[241]
Originally by: CCP Abathur @ Sovereignty - breaking the chains 2009.09.09 The other major factor is the more space you spread your ęDominion' across, the more expensive it will become to maintain your stargate network. We do not want to see alliances holding space simply for the sake of holding it or just making their color on the map bigger. We want to see alliances more properly utilizing their space and providing more places for their members to generate income. In order to facilitate that, we are going to let you do some really cool stuff!
So.... what was really made to implement this?! From what I see, cost is linear and it will cost less with Dominion than it cost with POS Fuel!
So, what will CCP invent in the last few days before the patch to keep the promisse of making the cost of holding systems not linear? And don't come with the a answer that theres no point in hold and pay for a system if you dont use and improve it. Actually, alliances hold sov on systems paying much more than they will pay after Dominion and they dont use the system for nothing!
Where will be the free space?
As the nex expansion is very cool CCP failed twice! They promissed a big 0.0 change and more free space and less big sov alliances, making more players move to 0.0 and have theire space. at the same time stop with the usual 0.0 big blob fights making it more efective using roaming gangs to harass the neighbor. FAIL! CCP come back on is word after the big sov alliances start crying! FAIL!
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ropnes
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Posted - 2009.11.19 10:50:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Mrs Snowman In my view, the new system doesn't actually encourage new corps/alliances to move into 0.0 by itself!
No? Mine will and I know many others will too 20 anomalies and a system to call our own? Nice
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.11.19 11:37:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Pointfive
Originally by: Vivian Azure Edited by: Vivian Azure on 19/11/2009 03:41:10 Can we please stop to ask about LvL 4 Missions and about personal profits?
20 anomalies with each having some 20 million ISK / hour as they're also increased in value with the upgrades will result in:
20 Million x 20 anomalies = 400 Million ISK / hour x 24 hours = 9.6 billion ISK / day x 28days = 268.8 billion / month
A potential 268.8 billion a month, without even considering mining, complexes or belt-ratting. That's what you get for your alliance and/or your members to split.
Not enough?
How about i join the level 4 running alliance with you?
35 Million x infinite missions = infinite Million ISK / hour x 24 hours = infinite isk ISK
Maybe you dont care a bout personal income, but every individual person that actually lives in 0.0 and doesn't afk and spend most of their time making money in empire like you , personal income does matter.
If these changes do make you get ON PAR income with level 4's the most this change will do is make some of the people who dont have level 4s spend their time in 0.0 instead.
Space remains the same, nullsec still not enticing to the majority of the player base, patch changes nothing. Space is going to be even harder to take. So all this does is entrench the large alliances more. Great patch.
How about you stop whining and working for your isk bobby? Work ever heard of it? Lvl 4 missions and your estimates of "infinite isk per hour" is just plain dumb.
Dominion upgrades will allow your members to make a better income in null- if they choose to grind for isk. Null sec anomalies are very profitable- try one sometime.
Your just upset because these upgrades cost your corp isk- R U that controlling that you dont want your corp members to make any isk of their own?
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Kaahles
Kentucky Fried Capitals
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Posted - 2009.11.19 11:40:00 -
[244]
What I would like to know is somewhat more about the visual part of the I-Hub. I believe I’ve read somewhere that it changes visually depending on what upgrades you got installed. Is that still the case? And if yes: is the picture in the blog the “base model” (i.e. without any upgrades) so we will have a somewhat “wow that looks epic”-moment when we install the upgrades or is that a render of a fully upgraded I-Hub?
----------------------------- OMG THE SKY IS FALLING! Contract me all your stuff so I can save it! |
Aversin
Gallente Universalis Imperium Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2009.11.19 11:54:00 -
[245]
Something I haven't seen mentioned or asked, is the truesec system being ditched? For example if I upgrade a -.05 system fully will it be just as good as a -.91 system or will the truesec status of a system still have an effect on the anomalies, sites, and everything else that spawn?
Originally by: Razner Cerizo They will never quit. The beatings will continue until morale improves.
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Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.19 12:04:00 -
[246]
Edited by: Nareg Maxence on 19/11/2009 12:05:00
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Are you telling me the number of good sites you have available does not influence how much money you make spending x number of hours doing them?
The time spent clearing a single high-end anomaly makes you less money than other things you could be doing in the same time. If it's not profitable to do once, it's not profitable to farm.
This is not true. Even the lesser quality anomalies in 0.0 are comparable to ratting in income/hour in my experience, and they are certainly more interesting than warping to belt, rinse, warp to new belt, rinse, repeat.
Lowsec and highsec anomalies are a different story. The highsec anomalies are somewhat interesting as newbie content, but quickly start to suck compared to real exploration or running missions or whatever. The lowsec ones just suck, plain and simple. When you are ready to go into lowsec, you are ready to start grinding radar sites, and radar sites are magnitudes more profitable.
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Miraqu
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.19 12:23:00 -
[247]
Edited by: Miraqu on 19/11/2009 12:22:44 Somehow most of you missed something from all the devblog pages and comments.
Those "anomalies" are not to be compared with any anomaly currently in the game.
Perhaps it was a bad choice of word to call those NPC-sites anomalies too, but don't be too fixed at what is currently an anomaly in the game.
I fully agree that most current anomalies aren't really worth scanning, the upgrade-sites really are. Maybe visiting the Test server could help.
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Peryner
University of Caille
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Posted - 2009.11.19 12:38:00 -
[248]
well I understand my idea wasn't the best :P
but still, I'm sure the dev would agree that putting in agents into 0.0 space as upgrades would be silly and repetitive with the current system.
Maybe just release custom player made missions? I'm not sure how other mmos make those profitable? Like city of heros or .. that other mmo. Where like, the players can make there own missions for other players to do. Like with thier own dialog and stuff : )
But .. seriously.. does anyone know other mmos reward playermade missions without breaking something?
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Juliette DuBois
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Posted - 2009.11.19 12:46:00 -
[249]
Not all anomalies will be complete top end since it was said earlier that there are some for less experienced players so you probably won¦t have 20 guys making max isk in one system from them.
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Slobodanka
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Posted - 2009.11.19 12:58:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Vivian Azure Edited by: Vivian Azure on 19/11/2009 03:41:10 Can we please stop to ask about LvL 4 Missions and about personal profits?
20 anomalies with each having some 20 million ISK / hour as they're also increased in value with the upgrades will result in:
20 Million x 20 anomalies = 400 Million ISK / hour x 24 hours = 9.6 billion ISK / day x 28days = 268.8 billion / month
A potential 268.8 billion a month, without even considering mining, complexes or belt-ratting.
Or enemies attacking, or cloakers, or roaming gangs, or...
The grass must really be green on your side of high-sec empire...
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Lady Aja
Caldari Cobalt Dragon Exploration Company
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Posted - 2009.11.19 13:04:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Slobodanka
Originally by: Vivian Azure Edited by: Vivian Azure on 19/11/2009 03:41:10 Can we please stop to ask about LvL 4 Missions and about personal profits?
20 anomalies with each having some 20 million ISK / hour as they're also increased in value with the upgrades will result in:
20 Million x 20 anomalies = 400 Million ISK / hour x 24 hours = 9.6 billion ISK / day x 28days = 268.8 billion / month
A potential 268.8 billion a month, without even considering mining, complexes or belt-ratting.
Or enemies attacking, or cloakers, or roaming gangs, or...
The grass must really be green on your side of high-sec empire...
still have to scan them down no matter what. be it ship scanner ( 30 seconds ) or probe. ( 6-8 seconds )... in either case.... most people will dock up and event hen you have to take a lucky dip and hope you catch a anon runner. if you was not reading this right now? what would you be doing instead of reading my sig?
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Pac SubCom
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.11.19 13:12:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Slobodanka
Or enemies attacking, or cloakers, or roaming gangs, or...
Lack of coordination is no argument. --------------- ∞ TQFE
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Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2009.11.19 13:15:00 -
[253]
You know ive noticed most of the complaints about isk ratios are coming from goonswarm, you know the guys who own the most broken truesec ratting systems in the game.
The bottom line for me is this, if i can upgrade the space i have so it gives more income whilest keeping the potential for anytime pvp then it is more incentive for me to come to 0.0. Simple equasion, Pew-Pew plus isk making = good. L4 mission *****s are never coming out of empire because for most of them theres no pew pew in the equasion, its simply about isk making.
I say better to balance it based on people who might actually come out here rather than balance it based on a group who will never ever use it no matter what is done to it.
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Myriand
Emperor's New Clones
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Posted - 2009.11.19 13:19:00 -
[254]
Edited by: Myriand on 19/11/2009 13:22:32 Edited by: Myriand on 19/11/2009 13:20:12
Originally by: Lady Aja
Originally by: Slobodanka
Originally by: Vivian Azure Edited by: Vivian Azure on 19/11/2009 03:41:10 Can we please stop to ask about LvL 4 Missions and about personal profits?
20 anomalies with each having some 20 million ISK / hour as they're also increased in value with the upgrades will result in:
20 Million x 20 anomalies = 400 Million ISK / hour x 24 hours = 9.6 billion ISK / day x 28days = 268.8 billion / month
A potential 268.8 billion a month, without even considering mining, complexes or belt-ratting.
Or enemies attacking, or cloakers, or roaming gangs, or...
The grass must really be green on your side of high-sec empire...
still have to scan them down no matter what. be it ship scanner ( 30 seconds ) or probe. ( 6-8 seconds )... in either case.... most people will dock up and event hen you have to take a lucky dip and hope you catch a anon runner.
Originally by: Pac SubCom
Originally by: Slobodanka
Or enemies attacking, or cloakers, or roaming gangs, or...
Lack of coordination is no argument.
Lol, one is from a NPC corp(post with you main for some credebility), the other, acording to battleClinic his corp lives on a WH and he is a HS war dec griefer.
You guys, know very well how is to live and roam in 0.0 23/7!!! ROFL
Ninja edit: I'm not authorized to post with my main! But at least I dont use a alt protected by the gods of NPC corps L4 mission runners free wardec risk!
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Zastrow
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.19 14:11:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Aversin Something I haven't seen mentioned or asked, is the truesec system being ditched? For example if I upgrade a -.05 system fully will it be just as good as a -.91 system or will the truesec status of a system still have an effect on the anomalies, sites, and everything else that spawn?
the CSM asked CCP about this at the iceland summit. it's apparently a variable that cannot be easily changed because it's pre-loaded from the database at cluster startup or something like that Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Vladimir Griftin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.19 14:17:00 -
[256]
Some high end anomalies are upward of 45m in bounties alone, I know there are a couple of Sansha ones that are close anyway, they can easily be done in under an hour with a high DPS battleship.
The thing that really makes this better than L4's is the speed at which you can run them. You don't need to move, you just get wave after wave. No moving between rooms.
You can fit a probe launcher at a POS, run one scan with a deep space probe, rifit your gun and off you go. You have a warp in to every anomaly in the system.
If you learn the names of the good ones the ISK/hr ratio should be very decent because it will be non stop. Add in the chance of faction spawn and its really not bad at all.
The cost of a fully upgraded system with no strategic upgrades is 180m a month, something a single pilot could make in 4hrs.
The trouble is finding a way to reliably and fairly transfer that ISK up to the space holding Alliance level.
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Myriand
Emperor's New Clones
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Posted - 2009.11.19 14:19:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Zastrow
Originally by: Aversin Something I haven't seen mentioned or asked, is the truesec system being ditched? For example if I upgrade a -.05 system fully will it be just as good as a -.91 system or will the truesec status of a system still have an effect on the anomalies, sites, and everything else that spawn?
the CSM asked CCP about this at the iceland summit. it's apparently a variable that cannot be easily changed because it's pre-loaded from the database at cluster startup or something like that
Seems the CSM is in need of one or moew real life developers to make the ambarassing questions to CCP when they give that kind of answers!!!
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Pac SubCom
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.11.19 14:21:00 -
[258]
Edited by: Pac SubCom on 19/11/2009 14:25:50
Originally by: Myriand But at least I dont use a alt protected by the gods of NPC corps...
I have more respect for man who lets me know where he stands, even if he is wrong, than for the one who comes up like a 0.0 pvp god and is nothing but a bear who wants to rat in more safety in 0.0 than npc corps could ever provide, with a larger payout than lvl 4 even if disturbed by hostiles once in a while.
If you coordinate, you don't have to stop doing your anomalies with cloakers or roaming gangs about. But you are unable to do so since in your alliance you make isk on your own of course - hence you don't deserve the payout of the chaining of anomalies in places where solo play doesn't net you the top isk.
People can't imagine any deviation from the business as usual. That's why they are afraid that they won't cope with the 0.0 environment they'll find themselves in after Dominion. And that's why they don't like these changes. --------------- ∞ TQFE
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Myriand
Emperor's New Clones
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Posted - 2009.11.19 14:26:00 -
[259]
Well, 20 anomalies with, lets especulat, 10 good anomalies means 10 chances of getting a faction rat in only one system!!!
Lets especulate again and say that every 10 factions rats you got a very nice drop (something worth more than 200-300M)
So... you do 10 anomalies, get the bounties, get the not so worth faction loot and get one good faction loot. Even if each anomalie only gives 25M in bountys this would end up in 250M plus the faction rat bounty, plus 9 faction crapy mods(50-100M) and a good faction mod.
I'm seeing more than a 1,5Bil only on 10 anomalies! Can you do that in L4?
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Juliette DuBois
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Posted - 2009.11.19 15:18:00 -
[260]
Those drops won¦t be worth that for long.
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kezz2411
Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.19 15:49:00 -
[261]
why not give stations and upkeep fee? it would tune down station spamming a bit by the larger alliances wouldn't it ?
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Spurty
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.19 15:53:00 -
[262]
Originally by: kezz2411 why not give stations and upkeep fee? it would tune down station spamming a bit by the larger alliances wouldn't it ?
spamming surely not!
Obvious idea that though kezz, I support it. Make em open their doors to make the isk to support the stations!
Originally by: Machine Delta When making a point, anyone taking it should consider the source.
pretty deep coming from you |
Nairb Ecrep
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Posted - 2009.11.19 15:54:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua Okay some of the numbers looking better and things are better explained that's good.
However 2 major problems remain.
1. Size of Infrastructure Hubs: Can we at least get these reduced to fit into a jump freighter. As it stands now the bottlenecks are going to prevent anyone from getting a freighter through.
2. NRDS space is threatened. I have an idea for a solution that I've not seen. A system tax. This is a tax on bounties received in the system set by the sovereign of the system and sent to their executor's wallet. Make it from like 1-10%. It also is taken before corp tax is taken so as not to have a corp bump their tax up to 100% and make the sovereign get nothing.
(Would also be nice to have an alliance tax...similar structure 1-10%, it comes out before corp tax but after sovereign tax :)...this would help alliances too :) )
Even though I said the same bit about system tax on page 5, what about this?
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.11.19 16:09:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Industria Dragous Ah the fine print. # Changed the online time of Sovereignty Blockade Units from six hours to three hours. # Changed the reinforcement variance timers on Outposts and Infrastructure Hubs from four hours to two hours.
Not sure I like these 2 changes since it appears to have been made to support the aggressor. The intent as I read early on with this patch was to allow smaller groups to claim space and to cut down on the timezone issue. With these 2 timer reductions the attacker can roll over a system with 2 to 3 gates and no outpost in about 7-8hrs. That is assuming the Infrastructure Hub has about a large POS HP's and resists. With the reinforcement variance timers now falling to a narrower range the Hub would be more likely to fall in a closer time to the attacker. Therefore the defender logs in to find the Hub an SBU are invulnerable an have nothing to do but wait. The SBU should be vulnerable an require a repair in order for the attacker to continue or something. I may not understand the exact timing here but it seems that a smaller window on reinforcement variance with the shorter anchor time will likely limit the small groups to defend in their peak time with even a small amount of space.
Vulnerability states
SBU(s) are vulnerable while being anchored and onlining.
Once an Outpost and/or Infrastructure Hub is reinforced, the SBU(s) enter a parallel reinforcement cycle. That means that the SBU(s) are invulnerable as long as there are no vulnerable structures in system.
If the Outpost and Infrastructure Hub are vulnerable, so is the SBU(s). If the Infrastructure Hub is vulnerable and the outpost is not, then the SBU(s) are vulnerable. If the Outpost and Infrastructure Hub are vulnerable, so is the SBU(s).
I think you are a bit confused on how the reinforcement timer varience affects things. Reducing the time greatly benefits the defender.
The defender sets the time (within a 24 or 28hr timeframe depending on the structure we are talking about) that the structure comes out of reinforcement. The 2 hr + or - variable affects the time the defender chooses. So 4 hours + or - gave you an 8 hour spread of time when your structure might come out of reinforcement, and that was not to the defenders advantage. A 2 hour + or - (4 hour variance) allows the defender much more precise control (presumably during the height of their prime time).
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2009.11.19 16:10:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Darek Castigatus You know ive noticed most of the complaints about isk ratios are coming from goonswarm, you know the guys who own the most broken truesec ratting systems in the game.
You have a keen eye for the obvious. This expansion is the best ever, just by the amount of goon tears flowing.
Sweet, sweet goon tears, the taste of honey and whine.
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The Mittani
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.19 16:17:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Darek Castigatus You know ive noticed most of the complaints about isk ratios are coming from goonswarm, you know the guys who own the most broken truesec ratting systems in the game.
You have a keen eye for the obvious. This expansion is the best ever, just by the amount of goon tears flowing.
Sweet, sweet goon tears, the taste of honey and whine.
i cannot deny that my alliance is very, very upset about this. :(((
Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
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Dante Edmundo
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Posted - 2009.11.19 16:44:00 -
[267]
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 19/11/2009 16:46:18
Probably what concerns me the most about these new nul-sec changes is the fundamental shift from "passive income source" to "active income source".
Currently players wage wars to control space at key income source locations. But there isn't a requirement to make players work further once they control the strategic economic objectives. It also focuses nul-sec mostly on combat/PvP.
In the new model - "passive income sources" are being nerfed and the costs to maintain an alliance are being increased. And the income source now to maintain your alliance is like a forced indenturement of Eve players - instead of fighting over key resources, alliances now must set up PvE operations that must be constantly ongoing on a daily basis for the alliance to survive.
I just wonder how many players will buy into this new model? Instead of fighting over nul-sec resources they will now be required to "grind" daily for resources. Even if they conquer new space - it still will require even more PvE activity for upkeep and more indenturement of alliance members.
To be honest, I think a better model could have been devised to avoid forced indenturement of players just to get nul-sec more populated or used. More dynamic and varied across systems "passive income" resources could have been introduced. More depth and rewards to PvP - the large fleet battles that would determine growth or diminishment of an alliance rather than how many anomalies players can grind a day.
My 2 cents.
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Orthaen
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Posted - 2009.11.19 17:24:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Dante Edmundo Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 19/11/2009 16:46:18
Probably what concerns me the most about these new nul-sec changes is the fundamental shift from "passive income source" to "active income source".
Currently players wage wars to control space at key income source locations. But there isn't a requirement to make players work further once they control the strategic economic objectives. It also focuses nul-sec mostly on combat/PvP.
In the new model - "passive income sources" are being nerfed and the costs to maintain an alliance are being increased. And the income source now to maintain your alliance is like a forced indenturement of Eve players - instead of fighting over key resources, alliances now must set up PvE operations that must be constantly ongoing on a daily basis for the alliance to survive.
I just wonder how many players will buy into this new model? Instead of fighting over nul-sec resources they will now be required to "grind" daily for resources. Even if they conquer new space - it still will require even more PvE activity for upkeep and more indenturement of alliance members.
To be honest, I think a better model could have been devised to avoid forced indenturement of players just to get nul-sec more populated or used. More dynamic and varied across systems "passive income" resources could have been introduced. More depth and rewards to PvP - the large fleet battles that would determine growth or diminishment of an alliance rather than how many anomalies players can grind a day.
My 2 cents.
I feel the need to restate what I said earlier, because I know no one reads the whole thread. What you predict happening is exactly the point. CCP desires a system where alliances that are 95% military suffer, and fail, because those military alliances are letting a vast portion of the game CCP made go to waste, and simultaneously preventing anyone else from using them. The obvious solution is to recruit miners, and missioners (anomalies are close enough, in secure space), and people that like exploration. You can keep doing your pewpew, while they work the systems. You have fun pewing, they have fun farming, and everyone is happy. By pewing, you keep the systems they farm in safe. By farming, they keep your alliance afloat and supplied to pew. Beautiful system, no? An alliance is rewarded for utilizing every tool at its disposal, instead of just R64 moons and blobs.
To the occaisonal "CCP NEEDS TO PUT THIS ON SISI!!!!" whine, I say; you're an idiot. Devs spawned the upgrades for people the day the first blog about upgrades went up. Perhaps if you logged on sisi, and asked to have a system upgraded to test, instead of just *****ing, you'd know this.
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ropnes
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Posted - 2009.11.19 17:31:00 -
[269]
Originally by: Dante Edmundo Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 19/11/2009 16:46:18
Probably what concerns me the most about these new nul-sec changes is the fundamental shift from "passive income source" to "active income source".
Currently players wage wars to control space at key income source locations. But there isn't a requirement to make players work further once they control the strategic economic objectives. It also focuses nul-sec mostly on combat/PvP.
In the new model - "passive income sources" are being nerfed and the costs to maintain an alliance are being increased. And the income source now to maintain your alliance is like a forced indenturement of Eve players - instead of fighting over key resources, alliances now must set up PvE operations that must be constantly ongoing on a daily basis for the alliance to survive.
I just wonder how many players will buy into this new model? Instead of fighting over nul-sec resources they will now be required to "grind" daily for resources. Even if they conquer new space - it still will require even more PvE activity for upkeep and more indenturement of alliance members.
To be honest, I think a better model could have been devised to avoid forced indenturement of players just to get nul-sec more populated or used. More dynamic and varied across systems "passive income" resources could have been introduced. More depth and rewards to PvP - the large fleet battles that would determine growth or diminishment of an alliance rather than how many anomalies players can grind a day.
My 2 cents.
Everyone in 0.0 is already ratting Now they'll make more money doing anomalies instead. Corps will raise taxes and alliances will be fine
What you won't have is alliances making enough ISK for Titan blobs and endless amounts of Dreads. Good riddance
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Dante Edmundo
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Posted - 2009.11.19 17:47:00 -
[270]
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 19/11/2009 17:48:12
It will be interesting to see if the model is workable. Will alliances be able to protect their carebears sufficiently to make them feel the risk is acceptable? Will alliances get enough carebears to work daily for them? Will carebears be happy with their new landlords?
Is the game-play paradigm becoming more and more like real life to the point where it no longer is a game? Or fun?
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Neu Bastian
Minmatar Valklear Guard
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Posted - 2009.11.19 17:57:00 -
[271]
I understood the Sov Changes where also meant to shake up things in 0.0, making it harder for large alliances to hold 7658765867543 systems.
As it is, it looks like holding sov through many systems will be made easier, specially since there are naturally rich systems that dont need much upgrading at all, and rather than shaking up 0.0, we're jsut gonna have even bigger alliances, with more renters and pet relations.
Will there be anything done to prevent large chunks of 0.0 to be ruled over by the same few parties?
Quote:
Neu Bastian Valklear Guard - CEO
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Orthaen
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Posted - 2009.11.19 18:10:00 -
[272]
Originally by: Dante Edmundo Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 19/11/2009 17:48:12
It will be interesting to see if the model is workable. Will alliances be able to protect their carebears sufficiently to make them feel the risk is acceptable? Will alliances get enough carebears to work daily for them? Will carebears be happy with their new landlords?
Is the game-play paradigm becoming more and more like real life to the point where it no longer is a game? Or fun?
Fun is subjective. If you enjoy grinding level 4s all afternoon, there's no reason you wouldn't like grinding anomalies as well. If you can mine veldspar 6 hours a day, there is no reason changing "veldspar" to "arkonor" will make the game more like a job for you. I think the main problem, for all the big alliance whiners ((lolgoons)) is that they refuse to believe that there are people in EVE that dont think and act like they do. For some people, slosh ops and suicide ganks aren't enjoyable. There are people that like "grinding" and would gladly do it in 0.0, if just for the novelty of being in 0.0. Then you add pirate faction loot on top, and you're golden.
No, I dont think prices will tank enough to make the worthwhile ones worthless
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ropnes
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Posted - 2009.11.19 18:20:00 -
[273]
Regular players in 0.0 weren't getting a cut of the R64 riches anyway
And do you have any idea just how much ISK they generate for the big alliances? Hundreds of billions per month. It's completely out of whack
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Dante Edmundo
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Posted - 2009.11.19 18:22:00 -
[274]
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 19/11/2009 18:25:19
Quote:
Fun is subjective. If you enjoy grinding level 4s all afternoon, there's no reason you wouldn't like grinding anomalies as well. If you can mine veldspar 6 hours a day, there is no reason changing "veldspar" to "arkonor" will make the game more like a job for you. I think the main problem, for all the big alliance whiners ((lolgoons)) is that they refuse to believe that there are people in EVE that dont think and act like they do. For some people, slosh ops and suicide ganks aren't enjoyable. There are people that like "grinding" and would gladly do it in 0.0, if just for the novelty of being in 0.0. Then you add pirate faction loot on top, and you're golden.
No, I dont think prices will tank enough to make the worthwhile ones worthless
Well - that is really what I am wondering about. Will alliances get enough players to do just that? You may be right about the 'mis-perception' of the current big alliances - since the economic paradigm has been primarily "passive income source" and PvP centric for them.
Now you have a pretty dramatic shift ...
1) Alliances now will have to require members to PvE. They do this by stating - look you'll make more ISK if you base out here in nul-sec. And we will protect you.
2) Some hi-sec players give it a try - and also players in the alliance actually find it easier now to do PvE activites.
3) Do the Hi-Sec players get enough rewards to offset getting killed on occasion? Can the alliance protect the new hi-sec PvE'rs enough?
4) Will the current Alliance players who PvE normally for the Alliance be content in having to keep their activities going and probably do more each day then before?
5) Will alliance leadership be happy now having to manage more PvE/carebear activities rather than focusing on PvP - Military strategic goals? Is there going to be a place for military type alliances or will that become impossible?
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Dante Edmundo
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Posted - 2009.11.19 18:47:00 -
[275]
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 19/11/2009 18:54:36
Originally by: ropnes Regular players in 0.0 weren't getting a cut of the R64 riches anyway
And do you have any idea just how much ISK they generate for the big alliances? Hundreds of billions per month. It's completely out of whack
I think everyone is agreed (even goonies) that the R64'rs are way OP on the income. So CCP is nerfing them - I even wonder if they're nerfing them enough.
But the counterbalance to nerfing R64's is to force more PvE type activity in nul-sec space. There already is plenty of PvE to be had in hi-sec or wormholes. So why would a PvE'r want to move to nul-sec just to PvE unless there was a really good incentive to do so?
nul-sec currently is PvP centric with passive income sources. So I guess it is no wonder many of the current nul-sec dwellers are unhappy with the changes, since you are forcing them literally to become more PvE centric - at least a portion of their player base, in order to simply stay where they are at.
Most of the changes simply change the economic model - but what about the military implications of protecting more PvE'rs in nul-sec space? Even if it is more profitable - will current hi-sec dwellers really want to risk so much just to exist in nul-sec? Are they really protectable, especially given the increased population that will be required to maintain the daily isk costs?
Will the current PvP nul-sec alliance enjoying becoming patrol/guards in nul-sec? Is that what they want out of their PvP?
It seems much of what we're getting in this initial release worked out the economics of nul-sec but not a whole lot on the impact this will have on the 'PvP' side of the coin - other than changing the dynamics of system ownership. But actual protection - military upgrades etc - there is none.
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Dante Edmundo
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Posted - 2009.11.19 18:54:00 -
[276]
Originally by: wallenbergaren Their members ALREADY PvE How do you think most ppl make money?
Well of course - but they are doing it for themselves. They are not also forced to give a portion of their profits to the alliances (at least not on the scale that will be required post-Dominion).
Those who play strictly PvE tend to not even bother with nul-sec, why deal with all the hassles if you can get your profit almost 100% protected in hi-sec? Even if it is not as much - why risk your 100 million Hulk and other assets in nul-sec? For what? 25% gain in profits of which you will be forced to give some portion to your alliance landlord? Extreme risk from gank squads ruining your game playing?
And will current PvP'rs want to sit on PvE operations as Guards - rather than be part of the back and forth military operations of system capture?
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SpeakerForTheDad
Amarr Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2009.11.19 18:57:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Orthaen
I feel the need to restate what I said earlier, because I know no one reads the whole thread. What you predict happening is exactly the point. CCP desires a system where alliances that are 95% military suffer, and fail, because those military alliances are letting a vast portion of the game CCP made go to waste, and simultaneously preventing anyone else from using them. The obvious solution is to recruit miners, and missioners (anomalies are close enough, in secure space), and people that like exploration. You can keep doing your pewpew, while they work the systems. You have fun pewing, they have fun farming, and everyone is happy. By pewing, you keep the systems they farm in safe. By farming, they keep your alliance afloat and supplied to pew. Beautiful system, no? An alliance is rewarded for utilizing every tool at its disposal, instead of just R64 moons and blobs.
To the occaisonal "CCP NEEDS TO PUT THIS ON SISI!!!!" whine, I say; you're an idiot. Devs spawned the upgrades for people the day the first blog about upgrades went up. Perhaps if you logged on sisi, and asked to have a system upgraded to test, instead of just *****ing, you'd know this.
This is my read on the Dominion change as well. I have received some interesting response to my recruitment post, but very few folks seem to understand that my tiny corp - with the ability to "mission," mine, invent and build - is a guaranteed net positive to anyone trying to hold sov and *improve* their space.
Here's hoping that someone figures this out sooner rather than later. I am primed to move to 0.0 if I can find the right alliance to hook up with.
Speaker
The Dad Abides |
Soyemia
Minmatar Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.19 19:26:00 -
[278]
CCP really needs to answer how much they belive these can make isk/hour compared to L4 missions. It needs to be atleast double. Unless it is CCP will change nothing, congrats, or maybe even nerf the amount of people who are goingto hang in 0.0.
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Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.19 19:46:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Myriand
Originally by: CCP Abathur @ Sovereignty - breaking the chains 2009.09.09 The other major factor is the more space you spread your ęDominion' across, the more expensive it will become to maintain your stargate network. We do not want to see alliances holding space simply for the sake of holding it or just making their color on the map bigger. We want to see alliances more properly utilizing their space and providing more places for their members to generate income. In order to facilitate that, we are going to let you do some really cool stuff!
So.... what was really made to implement this?! From what I see, cost is linear and it will cost less with Dominion than it cost with POS Fuel!
So, what will CCP invent in the last few days before the patch to keep the promisse of making the cost of holding systems not linear?
I too would like to know. When I read that bit from Abathur I felt that Dominion just might work. What happened to this critical piece of the puzzle?
Colonies and Capitals |
Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.19 19:52:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Dante Edmundo Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 19/11/2009 18:54:36
Originally by: ropnes Regular players in 0.0 weren't getting a cut of the R64 riches anyway
And do you have any idea just how much ISK they generate for the big alliances? Hundreds of billions per month. It's completely out of whack
I think everyone is agreed (even goonies) that the R64'rs are way OP on the income. So CCP is nerfing them - I even wonder if they're nerfing them enough.
But the counterbalance to nerfing R64's is to force more PvE type activity in nul-sec space. There already is plenty of PvE to be had in hi-sec or wormholes. So why would a PvE'r want to move to nul-sec just to PvE unless there was a really good incentive to do so?
nul-sec currently is PvP centric with passive income sources. So I guess it is no wonder many of the current nul-sec dwellers are unhappy with the changes, since you are forcing them literally to become more PvE centric - at least a portion of their player base, in order to simply stay where they are at.
Most of the changes simply change the economic model - but what about the military implications of protecting more PvE'rs in nul-sec space? Even if it is more profitable - will current hi-sec dwellers really want to risk so much just to exist in nul-sec? Are they really protectable, especially given the increased population that will be required to maintain the daily isk costs?
Will the current PvP nul-sec alliance enjoying becoming patrol/guards in nul-sec? Is that what they want out of their PvP?
It seems much of what we're getting in this initial release worked out the economics of nul-sec but not a whole lot on the impact this will have on the 'PvP' side of the coin - other than changing the dynamics of system ownership. But actual protection - military upgrades etc - there is none.
I dont think you get how T2 Production works. Just because dyso and prom are having their use decreased and there for the value of them decreased doesn't mean the values of others aren't going to go up and everything will generally still cost the same the value will just be in mining more moons rather then less. It will realistically have no real effect on who gets the money its just going to be more work to get it which is why the changes are stupid and ineffective.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.11.19 19:58:00 -
[281]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 19/11/2009 20:00:16 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 19/11/2009 19:59:46
Originally by: Trent Nichols
Originally by: Myriand
Originally by: CCP Abathur @ Sovereignty - breaking the chains 2009.09.09 The other major factor is the more space you spread your ęDominion' across, the more expensive it will become to maintain your stargate network. We do not want to see alliances holding space simply for the sake of holding it or just making their color on the map bigger. We want to see alliances more properly utilizing their space and providing more places for their members to generate income. In order to facilitate that, we are going to let you do some really cool stuff!
So.... what was really made to implement this?! From what I see, cost is linear and it will cost less with Dominion than it cost with POS Fuel!
So, what will CCP invent in the last few days before the patch to keep the promisse of making the cost of holding systems not linear?
I too would like to know. When I read that bit from Abathur I felt that Dominion just might work. What happened to this critical piece of the puzzle?
Major alliances announced their intention to simply split their space among various "dummy" alliances that they would set up and maintain for the express purpose of keeping the costs to maintain sov low if a geometric progression of cost for a single alliance was instituted.
Now in truth it "does" cost more to have SOV and upgrades in a large number of systems (as opposed to just a few) even with a linear pricing scheme. My main concern is that now with the costs so low, and the rewards effectively doubled, that there will not be enough incentive for large allinaces to relinquish space. In this, time will tell. I suppose if necessary the fee's can be raised at a later date if necessary, but the outpouring of rage would be epic.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
teji
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.19 20:41:00 -
[282]
Originally by: Ranger 1 it will cost less with Dominion than it cost with POS Fuel!
Citation Needed
Quote: and the rewards effectively doubled
Citation Needed
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Glassback
Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.11.19 20:45:00 -
[283]
I'm going to use my ewar immune dockable super carrier to farm anomalies all day!
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DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
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Posted - 2009.11.19 20:50:00 -
[284]
Forgive me if this has been addressed.
The system cost, now is the cost the same for each system no matter how many you own? Or will the cost increase per system? Cause if they don;t increase based on how many systems then nothing will change, the large alliances will still fork out whatever for there systems and just hold as many as they want. But if the cost goes up based on the number of systems you own, then they will have to stratigraphic decide what systems to keep. So... which is it?
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Nobani
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.19 21:06:00 -
[285]
Originally by: DaReaper Forgive me if this has been addressed.
The system cost, now is the cost the same for each system no matter how many you own? Or will the cost increase per system? Cause if they don;t increase based on how many systems then nothing will change, the large alliances will still fork out whatever for there systems and just hold as many as they want. But if the cost goes up based on the number of systems you own, then they will have to stratigraphic decide what systems to keep. So... which is it?
If the per system cost is based on the number of systems you own, an alliance will create a bunch of shell alliances just for the purpose of claiming sov, and still nothing will change.
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Graysteel
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Posted - 2009.11.19 21:06:00 -
[286]
Was wondering if it would be possible with the mining up to provide ice.
Perhaps something like level 1 gives 1 ice belt with random selection of mixed ice with a small limited quantity in each iceburg. level 2 gives a little more ice, more of a selection and so on...?
This would allow those that mine ice a place in their sov to mine ice.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.11.19 21:06:00 -
[287]
Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 19/11/2009 21:15:06
Originally by: DaReaper Forgive me if this has been addressed.
The system cost, now is the cost the same for each system no matter how many you own? Or will the cost increase per system? Cause if they don;t increase based on how many systems then nothing will change, the large alliances will still fork out whatever for there systems and just hold as many as they want. But if the cost goes up based on the number of systems you own, then they will have to stratigraphic decide what systems to keep. So... which is it?
Why do you think it would make a difference? In the latter case the same people would either make additional alliances, just to hold sov or shrink their sov area and rent their space. The latter option again would not solve anything. The current sov system is in reality an influence system and the map reflects that. No matter how hard you crack on them, the influence isn't going to go away. They will in essence own those systems no matter what the new sov map will tell you.
Even forcing them to a single system won't allow your small team to make a home in all that "empty" space the mechanic creates. You can't escape the fact, that you will have to deal with bigger and stronger entities and get along with your landlord. In worst case it might even make things cheaper for them, unless you escalate the cost hard from the start and create a system no-one likes or affords.
The best you can achieve is to change the static sov warfare and create activities to liven up the unused space of the current alliances. You need to also create reasons why an alliance should allow outsiders in their influence area and mechanics that allow them to profit from the extra activity in some ways. Giving them extra income for as many as possible in a single system also helps, since then they aren't forced to take vast areas just so their grunts can make a living, but I'm not sure how much that really matters compared to the influence borders.
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DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
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Posted - 2009.11.19 21:08:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Nobani
Originally by: DaReaper Forgive me if this has been addressed.
The system cost, now is the cost the same for each system no matter how many you own? Or will the cost increase per system? Cause if they don;t increase based on how many systems then nothing will change, the large alliances will still fork out whatever for there systems and just hold as many as they want. But if the cost goes up based on the number of systems you own, then they will have to stratigraphic decide what systems to keep. So... which is it?
If the per system cost is based on the number of systems you own, an alliance will create a bunch of shell alliances just for the purpose of claiming sov, and still nothing will change.
prolly. or rent out areas
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Nobani
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.19 21:24:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Why do you think it would make a difference? In the latter case the same people would either make additional alliances, just to hold sov or shrink their sov area and rent their space. The latter option again would not solve anything. The current sov system is in reality an influence system and the map reflects that. No matter how hard you crack on them, the influence isn't going to go away. They will in essence own those systems no matter what the new sov map will tell you.
This is why in my opinion the best solution is the simplest: Sov is determined the same way as today, but gives absolutely no benefits whatsoever. If you have a POS somewhere, you can anchor a CSAA, jump bridge, cyno beacon, cyno jammer, whatever. No fuel benefits for sov, and conquering stations uses different mechanics (maybe similar to the current POS mechanics. I'm sure this wouldn't work in practice for reasons people smarter than me will point out, but I really dislike the arbitrary time limits for anchoring certain structures.
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Dante Edmundo
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Posted - 2009.11.19 21:26:00 -
[290]
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 19/11/2009 21:27:51 Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 19/11/2009 21:27:26
Originally by: Nobani
If the per system cost is based on the number of systems you own, an alliance will create a bunch of shell alliances just for the purpose of claiming sov, and still nothing will change.
The "shelling" problem could be fixed by only allowing advanced upgrades based on # of system owned by a single alliance. Therefore you could not get advanced upgrades unless a single alliance claimed multiple systems (instead of multiple "shell" fronts owning only single systems).
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Mcon99
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Posted - 2009.11.19 21:38:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Nobani
If the per system cost is based on the number of systems you own, an alliance will create a bunch of shell alliances just for the purpose of claiming sov, and still nothing will change.
Correct. Which is why that method of trying to shrink the size of alliances will fail, therefore, better for everyone CCP did not waste their time implementing it.
All the threads about the changes in Sov have had me thinking for a while - what would be the best way to generally shrink the size of existing alliances? Goons, Atlas, they keep saying they want less space, but yet the same number of members, and yet still have small entities living next door. This doens't seem believable as they would have the overwhelming firepower to crush their new neighbours, even if the upgrades can provide for their members (which I fully believe they can).
The solution? It's actually quite simple. Make an exponetial cost tree and a bill to be paid by a corp/alliance for BLUE standings. What do I mean? Lets say a 100 man corp sets another 100 man corp blue. There would be a small, monthly cost associated with that standing, automatically billed. Both corps would be billed, the same amount, for setting each other blue. Now lets say a third corp joined the fray, another 100 people, and all 3 corps were now set blue to each other. The cost would go up for each corp to reflect the fact there is now 300 blues in the 'tree', but it would still be affordable.
Now, for the Goons, Atlas, Razor, Legion, Shadow, Tau Ceti, etc, who have 1000+ members, the cost tree would basically make it insanely unaffordable for them to EVER set anyone else blue, or blue to them. So, if the Goons had no blue standing to anyone, their monthly bill for standing would be 0 isk. The minute they set one other alliance or corp blue, even if that corp is only 3 people, the billing would be massive, hundreds of millions at least if not 10 of billions per month. By the flip side, if I tried to set Goons blue to me (whether they are my friends or not), I would suddenly get a bill for that same huge sum of money.
This would effectly prevent things like Goons and NC from ever working together, heck, it would make the entire NC 'block of blue' completely unaffordable. You want to be a large alliance? That is fine, there is no direct penalty for that, but you have to bring people into your corps under your flag. Large alliances would be forced to operate alone - the idea of the entire side of the map aligned against you would be broken.
It also could stop the issue with exponetial sov costs, as setting up alt alliances would be no longer practical as you could no longer set standings between the alliances, regardless if all the alt alliances only had 2 toons. All that would matter would be the total sum of the blue 'tree'.
I would say set the exponetial costs to really take off once the blue tree was around 750 people. That still leaves room for decent sized alliances holding a few systems to work together, but totally nerfs the ability of any of the large alliance to ever work together again. Perfect!
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Moraguth
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.11.19 22:04:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Glassback I'm going to use my ewar immune dockable super carrier to farm anomalies all day!
sweet... i'll use my uber tanked HIC to hold you in place when we invade and get a cool super carrier kill to start off the day!
Hahaha, okay, not you specifically. But you should definitely reconsider this use of a SC if you plan on keeping it more than a month or two. good game
Hoc filum tradit - This thread delivers.
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ropnes
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Posted - 2009.11.19 22:16:00 -
[293]
Paying for standings would just screw smaller entities much more because they wouldn't be able to get standings with anyone
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Nobani
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.19 22:23:00 -
[294]
Edited by: Nobani on 19/11/2009 22:24:15
Originally by: Mcon99 The solution? It's actually quite simple. Make an exponetial cost tree and a bill to be paid by a corp/alliance for BLUE standings.
No. You want to put a cost on a blue '+' to stop alliances from working together. That's like putting a tax on marriage certificates to stop people from having sex.
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Actumarius
Caldari Nemissaries of Vengeance
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Posted - 2009.11.19 22:25:00 -
[295]
Remove level 4s from Hisec. Fix Game.
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The Tallman
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Posted - 2009.11.19 22:31:00 -
[296]
Edited by: The Tallman on 19/11/2009 22:32:20 Guys they are not going to get it perfect the first time round. It's two weeks to deployment. The alliance members posting here know from experience what happens in 0.0 and how we all make isk for ourselves & our corps/alliances. We just have to accept that we will still have to keep an alt in empire to run Lev 4's for now. Hopefully the new rise in the cost of living in 0.0 won't break our corp/alliance banks. (Cyno Jammers still too costly)
The last changes were a step in the right direction but I still don't see any significant motivation for corps/alliances in empire to rush out to make a home in 0.0 with this new system. CCP will hopefully track closely what happens after the patch and make more fixes asap.
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.11.19 22:53:00 -
[297]
Originally by: Actumarius Remove level 4s from Hisec. Fix Game.
Remove moon mining from null sec. Fix Game.
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All That
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.19 23:43:00 -
[298]
Originally by: Slobodanka About those cloaked bombers in my maxed system...
Seems like an opportunity for a new strategic upgrade module -- "cloak dispersion array" -- with expensive upkeep. Would make afk cloakers obsolete, too, which has long been a twisted game mechanic. Blues (with neut or red alts) even use it to keep their allied miners from venturing outside the pos while they continue to strip belts with no interruptions or competition. If they are limited in scope, they might even balance recons a bit, rather than break them if they were able to show up in every system on the map.
The idea of blocking afk cloakers might even be necessary for any game which implements this "activity-based" index for upgrade levels. It would be a very imbalanced way of keeping your enemies from achieving their required activity quotas for level maintenance or level upgrade.
I would pay for one because efficiency is king! There should be an equally significant commitment from interlopers (and even allies, sadly) to block any sovereign corp from being efficient and productive.
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All That
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.19 23:54:00 -
[299]
The idea of inflation may even have a place in a game like Eve. Another mechanism to balance the old accounts with the newer ones. It all boils down to what have you done lately, rather than resting on your "old money" laurels, which was gained with old institutions based on code that was thrown out. Throw out the money with the code!!
This also seems to be in line with a lurking benefit to CCP with these changes -- corps have to play to keep their system upgrades/benefits and by encouraging inflation, CCP gives more incentive to play to keep their wallets.
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Ganthrithor
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.20 00:15:00 -
[300]
This new system is seriously horrible. How you could set out to "solve the problem of POS shooting" and arrive at this as a "solution" is baffling to me.
First of all, regarding the POS shotting problem, you have completely failed to solve it. Now instead of shooting ten POSes we will shoot single stationary structure with the EHP of ten POSes. Hooray. On top of this, whereas now we can time / kite POSes, in Dominion we'll have to deal with randomized timers and a lack of control.
Second, the entire new sov / upgrades/ whatever system is terrible. First you devised a giant isk sink in the form of Sov bills. You say you implemented these new fees in order to take the place of tower fuel bills. Well guess what? There's still a lot of people who need Sov AND need online starbases! My moon mining business for example needs sov for the tower fuel bonus and the ability to deploy cyno beacons. Now I will need to pay my tower fuel bills AND a monthly sov bill of 240m isk (sov and cyno beacon). Guess what? The most valuable moons I mine generate ~200m / month in gross sales. Even if I had zero fuel costs I'd still be 40m in the red each month just paying for a cyno beacon! This is absurd, and unless you also implement a change which causes all the valuable moons to spawn in the same five systems there's no way anyone is going to be able to afford to mine mid-grade moon materials let alone low-ends. Even if you just opened 2-3 new accounts and stuck cyno alts all over the galaxy (so you could operate without beacons) your new system STILL drives operating costs up 25% since noone's going to be able to afford to take sov and claim their tower fuel consumption bonus.
The system productivity upgrades are by far the least-terrible idea you've come up with. Improvable space does seem like a good idea. However, implementation could be done better. More on this in a bit.
Here's a serious idea. I know this will never happen because "sunken costs and we'd look stupid" but I'm throwing the idea out there anyway-- toss 90% of these awful ideas in the bin and implement a simple solution. You want to reduce the amount of POS shotting? Great. Keep the current Sov system as is, but shift Sov-controlling POSes to planets instead of moons. This would drastically decrease the number of towers required to maintain a majority. Moon orbiting POSes could still be used for moon mining, production, ratting poses, logsitcs / upgrades etc but they wouldn't be able to claim Sov. In strategically unimportant backwater systems, small business owners will still be able to claim sov using a single tower, they'll still be able to run their logistics networks etc all while paying the cost of a medium or even a small tower. For strategically important systems, the number of POS required to maintain a majority (or even to block all planets) will be much lower than under the current system. Fewer POSes will be spammed, fewer will need shooting, and people can spend less time shooting pos during territorial wars.
One more note on POSes-- reinforced mode is a great system. Stront timing already works very well in discouraging casual assaults on territory owned by groups who live in another time zone. Currently the only way for an attacker to ensure a fight in their timezone is to kite towers, which means people need to make a serious effort, which I think is good. If you simply moved Sov controlling POSes to planets we could keep this excellent system.
Lastly, territorial upgrades could still fit into a modification of the current POS / sov system. Simply make your territorial upgrades into POS modules with large cpu/grid requirements similar to those of cyno jammers. This will effectively force upgrades to be installed on their own large towers (like jammers or jump bridges now).
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All That
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.20 00:29:00 -
[301]
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
These changes are great and really, I am quite pleased with it. The fact that grav sites are on par (or close to it) with Wormholes is insanely good.
--Isaac
Wormhole-quality grav sites in all upgraded areas of null sec seems to me that it will serve to drive down the profitably of mining per hour (as prices plummet) which will mean that running the plexes (or whatever turns out with the greatest reward/work ratio) becomes the "best" way to earn ISK. So, until things balance out, the smart miners in hi-sec will tend to stay in high sec, where there is still a pseudo "monopoly" on the minerals most in demand for every ship.
Introducing some sort of insane capital veldspar and scordite cruncher for lo sec and null sec may be a mechanism to alleviate this twisted situation. Imagine what that would do to loosen the logistical needs for capital-building alliances...
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Ganthrithor
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.20 00:30:00 -
[302]
... Since large towers are a not-insignificant investment in terms of hardware and fuel, effectively mandating that upgrade modules be installed on their own larges should discourage people from deploying them too casually, while still allowing small cooperatives to realistically fund upgrades to shared systems. The idea that 100 people will share single ratting systems is absolutely absurd, but with these kinds of upgrades systems might be able to support 10 ratters / explorers instead of one or two.
Basically my complaints about your proposed changes boil down to this:
1. You've claimed you want to reduce the amount of POS shooting involved in territorial warfare; in reality all you've done is substitute different structures with similar EHP totals and degraded our ability to "time" engagements during timezone wars.
2. You've talked at length about "individual income" in 0.0 space and your intentions to take money-making operations out of the hands of alliance level programs (R64 mining) and enable individual players / small cooperatives to make more money. In reality what you are doing is nerfing alliance level income from R64s while completely destroying individual / small groups of players' abilities to run moon mining, ratting, and industrial POSes and their associated logistics modules. In Dominion I see R32s being nationalized alongside the R64s already mined exclusively by large alliances, individuals and small corps being forced out of the R16/R32 markets due to the massively increased operating costs incurred by your changes, and the net result of their being two "economic classes" in EVE-- the alliances which can afford to mine moons and make massive incomes, and "the rest," who will effectively become ratting/anomaly running slaves.
You've worked a long time building EVE into what it is today-- please don't ruin the experience by implementing a pointless + inferior new sov system while simultaneously stripping EVE's middle class of the ability to afford to run their own businesses. Not everyone enjoys spending their entire week crammed into a single, crowded system shooting AI controlled pirate ships. Leave the scope and complexity of EVE alone and leave EVE's middle class with more than one way to make a living in 0.0.
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Myriand
Emperor's New Clones
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Posted - 2009.11.20 01:03:00 -
[303]
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Why do you think it would make a difference? In the latter case the same people would either make additional alliances, just to hold sov or shrink their sov area and rent their space.
Well, yes it would make a big diference! Not on the few firt weeks of the patch but i'm sure after a few months it would be very very different!!
The big alliances couldnt create phantom alliances. They need to have people there playing, so they knon when they are being attacked and so they can improve the systems. So, that takes them to split the big alliance in a few small alliances. This will could generate a little problem over time. Players identify with the current alliance that they are in, not with the 'NAP' they have. Just look at NC. You could see all of them as a 'NC Alliance' but no one does that. They are WI, MH, MM, RAGE, ME.... And how many times you know that RAGE is being crushed by roaming ops and ME that is just a few jumps away doesn't do nothing to help?
When the big alliances split in smaller alliances, with time, they will end like that, diferent and smaller alliances having problems between them. And greedy will play is part and some of these smaller alliances that once were one big entity might end up fighting each other for the monopoly of some systems and some resources!
So, yes, phantom/shadow(you name it) alliances would work on the first weeks. But in months it would be just another alliance with no relation with is 'brothers'
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Pointfive
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Posted - 2009.11.20 01:32:00 -
[304]
Originally by: Future Mutant
Originally by: Actumarius Remove level 4s from Hisec. Fix Game.
Remove moon mining from null sec. Fix Game.
I would gladly accept no more moon mining if level 4s were removed from high sec.
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.11.20 02:50:00 -
[305]
Originally by: Pointfive
Originally by: Future Mutant
Originally by: Actumarius Remove level 4s from Hisec. Fix Game.
Remove moon mining from null sec. Fix Game.
I would gladly accept no more moon mining if level 4s were removed from high sec.
You do realize i would just farm lvl 3's and remain rich- while you would lose all your passive income and remain poor right?
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.11.20 03:15:00 -
[306]
Originally by: teji
Originally by: Ranger 1 it will cost less with Dominion than it cost with POS Fuel!
Citation Needed
Quote: and the rewards effectively doubled
Citation Needed
Eh?
I'm not sure who you are quoting in the first line, but its not me.
As for the second, its your own alliance mates that keep insisting that the only upgrade anyone will make use of is the anomalies, and now you get a max of 20 per system instead of the original 10 that was proposed.
Note, I don't believe this will have any effect on inflation in EVE as the money will simply be earned in a different location than now.
But really these things have already been pointed out by most of the older and wiser players in game already, including past and present alliance leaders. I know you'll recognize at least one or two of them. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Pointfive
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Posted - 2009.11.20 03:17:00 -
[307]
Originally by: Future Mutant
Originally by: Pointfive
Originally by: Future Mutant
Originally by: Actumarius Remove level 4s from Hisec. Fix Game.
Remove moon mining from null sec. Fix Game.
I would gladly accept no more moon mining if level 4s were removed from high sec.
You do realize i would just farm lvl 3's and remain rich- while you would lose all your passive income and remain poor right?
I am in a large alliance and rarely if ever see this passive income so what do i care. And if you can enjoy doing level 3s for the rest of your life sounds good to me.
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.20 05:23:00 -
[308]
large alliances so far farm moons. There will be adjustmetn with dominion Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
ep1k
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.20 06:55:00 -
[309]
Originally by: HeliosGal large alliances so far farm moons. There will be adjustmetn with dominion
Consider not posting.
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2009.11.20 08:37:00 -
[310]
Quote: This upgrade provides a variety of salvage & archaeology sites to explore
No booster cloud upgrades? I remember finding maybe 1 gas site per system last time I was in 0.0. Please make sure there's a way to increase the number (and quality) of gas sites in system.
Quote: A nearby alliance has developed one of their systems to have the most awesome mining available (Level 5 Industry). You mobilize, move in and take over their system......
Here's one point that I'm really disliking. I agree going straight for the good system is a nice strategy and probably one of the best as it should be. However the way it's implemented atm it's the only strategy that anyone is ever gonna use. There's no advantage to taking the surrounding systems first and pushing the enemy back, in fact there are only disadvantages to this as the system will lose quality. All we'll ever see is people jumping straight past all the enemies borders straight into the centre and storming it as quickly as possible. At least in the current system you might have some distance and a couple important systems between you and the enemy but now your encouraging us to bunch up all together.
Add in the fact that it's gonna be pretty easy to harass enemies now, cloaker gankers are gonna love systems with 20 anomalies in them. If the enemy has half a brain they'll be able to lock you down or force you to have half your alliance sitting in defence ships and even with that many defenders attackers they'll still have plenty of oportunities to attack efficiently (every hulk kill is worth 2 Stealth bombers and that shouldn't be hard to get).
tl;dr: The system is great for attackers and good for builders... defenders seem to be utterly screwed. ------------------------------
Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
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Dante Edmundo
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Posted - 2009.11.20 08:48:00 -
[311]
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 20/11/2009 08:51:03
Originally by: Typhado3
Add in the fact that it's gonna be pretty easy to harass enemies now, cloaker gankers are gonna love systems with 20 anomalies in them. If the enemy has half a brain they'll be able to lock you down or force you to have half your alliance sitting in defence ships and even with that many defenders attackers they'll still have plenty of oportunities to attack efficiently (every hulk kill is worth 2 Stealth bombers and that shouldn't be hard to get).
tl;dr: The system is great for attackers and good for builders... defenders seem to be utterly screwed.
I would tend to agree with you. It seems the economics of the upgrade were the main focus - and the subsequent military consequences as you describe and the impact seem to have been left out of the equation.
1) how many PvP'rs are going to enjoy babysitting carebears?
2) How many carebears are going to want to PvE with much greater risk in nul-sec, and see a percentage of their profits get taken away daily, given they can do same in hi-sec (or WH), safely and with no daily required upkeep expenses?
Raise your hands.
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Kim Wilde
Gallente Covenant
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Posted - 2009.11.20 17:04:00 -
[312]
well having done the numbers i can say thx for making 0.0 expensive to live in
and dont even get me started on how badly you cf'd the capitals
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Dante Edmundo
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Posted - 2009.11.20 17:17:00 -
[313]
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 20/11/2009 17:23:35 Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 20/11/2009 17:21:12 Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 20/11/2009 17:20:03
You know, it does seem to be a curious phenomena in MMOĘs today, this odd emphasis on introducing more grind ū and assuming players will enjoy the additional grind.
I wonder how this mindset instills itself into a gameĘs development process or why a number of MMOs end up often moving in this direction ū increasing grind in the game? Is it because MMO development is primarily computer programming ū and the programmers have an undue influence that assume grind is good? Is it just a kinda of unimaginative ū less creative way to improve your game without thinking about what is fun?
The new nul-sec changes ū all I can see is an increase in more grind, and done in a rather bland ū easy-mode manner, i.e. simply rework tables for Pirates, Anomalies, Asteroids so the random generators of NPCĘs increase output. Not that difficult to program frankly. ItĘs as if whoever planned the new sov changes looked at the whole thing as an abstract spreadsheet expansion ū without really thinking about what is ōfunö to people.
Fun: Something new, not the same oatmeal repackaged as if it is new. Fun: Not something where you get off work and then realize you are at work again ū itĘs called ōgrindö. Fun: in nul-sec itĘs about PvP. Really. Why then in this expansion a huge emphasis on PvE in nul-sec? There's enuf of that in hi-sec. If you want to improve PvE, then do it where the PvE'rs are. Again ū itĘs like some mechanical spreadsheet plan for Sov changes without actually thinking about why players will want to play a game.
Oh well. I donĘt think these changes will make me quit Eve. But some of them I think are disappointing. And I think many players did have their hopes up for the Sov changes only to see them dashed a few weeks before release - and whatĘs up with that, pulling the rug out from under your player base 2 weeks before release? Why the announcements of these significant changes on such an incredible short leash to get real player feedback - claiming your listening, but really, the only choice now is to go ahead with said changes or make players wait another half a year?
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Kanatta Jing
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Posted - 2009.11.20 17:23:00 -
[314]
@Dante Edmundo
Curiously putting money into 0.0 in PVP form is kinda tricky
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Changes Nogood
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Posted - 2009.11.20 17:28:00 -
[315]
Just cut the maximum stronting time to 23 hours, so that stronting postpones the fight, instead of giving the other side enough time to gather everyone from their blue list...
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Dante Edmundo
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Posted - 2009.11.20 17:30:00 -
[316]
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 20/11/2009 17:32:53
Originally by: Kanatta Jing @Dante Edmundo
Curiously putting money into 0.0 in PVP form is kinda tricky
I dunno. I've been playing space strategy games for decades on my computer. And all of them were fun and almost all of them depended on capturing "passive income" sources in order to fuel your empire. Remember Master of Orion series? Or Civilization?
I don't think any of those games had an R64 though that provided ungodly amounts of income on just 1 moon.
But I do recall them having plenty of variety of "passive income" sources that could be developed etc. that then you could fight over. But none of them required a daily grind - probably because the designers of the game realized this is not a particularly enjoyable activity.
I think most players grind in order to do something they enjoy. Maybe the problem is MMO developers look at stats and see everyone grinding and assume that's what players want to do?
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.11.20 20:02:00 -
[317]
Originally by: Pointfive
I am in a large alliance and rarely if ever see this passive income so what do i care. And if you can enjoy doing level 3s for the rest of your life sounds good to me.
Bobby thinks he is in a large alliance *snickers*
Also thanks for the permission, bob, if theres anything i can ever do for you (like explain disband mechanics) just let me know.
Back on topic- these changes are great- use them to the best of your ability- or lose the systems.
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Orthaen
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Posted - 2009.11.20 20:11:00 -
[318]
Originally by: Graysteel Edited by: Graysteel on 19/11/2009 21:07:16 Edited by: Graysteel on 19/11/2009 21:06:04 Was wondering if it would be possible with the mining upgrades to provide ice.
Perhaps something like level 1 gives 1 ice belt with random selection of mixed ice with a small limited quantity in each iceburg. level 2 gives a little more ice, more of a selection and so on...? (but only ever 1 belt, just more of it and more of a selection in that 1 belt.)
This would allow those that mine ice a place in their sov to mine ice.
This idea is fantastic, and should be rolled into the current mining upgrade. Start it at like level 3 or whatever, if you want. But it would be sweet.
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Pointfive
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Posted - 2009.11.20 20:53:00 -
[319]
Originally by: Future Mutant
Originally by: Pointfive
I am in a large alliance and rarely if ever see this passive income so what do i care. And if you can enjoy doing level 3s for the rest of your life sounds good to me.
Bobby thinks he is in a large alliance *snickers*
Also thanks for the permission, bob, if theres anything i can ever do for you (like explain disband mechanics) just let me know.
Back on topic- these changes are great- use them to the best of your ability- or lose the systems.
I have never been in bob, but then again when have you be right about anything in this thread.
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Aversin
Gallente Universalis Imperium Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2009.11.20 22:05:00 -
[320]
Originally by: Zastrow
Originally by: Aversin Something I haven't seen mentioned or asked, is the truesec system being ditched? For example if I upgrade a -.05 system fully will it be just as good as a -.91 system or will the truesec status of a system still have an effect on the anomalies, sites, and everything else that spawn?
the CSM asked CCP about this at the iceland summit. it's apparently a variable that cannot be easily changed because it's pre-loaded from the database at cluster startup or something like that
I guess I wasn't clear with my question, I'm not asking about changing the truesec status, I am asking if it will still have an effect on a fully upgraded system. Will there be any point in fighting for specific space other than for the moons, or will every system in eve be the same if it is fully upgraded?
Originally by: Razner Cerizo They will never quit. The beatings will continue until morale improves.
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Pointfive
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Posted - 2009.11.21 04:42:00 -
[321]
Testing so far. The level one upgrade anomalies are cruisers/frigates. The income from them is less than belt ratting, but increases military index faster. Belt rats barely increase the index. So its a bit silly that upgrading your space to level 1 actually decreases income.
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Kanatta Jing
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Posted - 2009.11.21 04:45:00 -
[322]
What is the lvl 1 anomaly names?
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Pointfive
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Posted - 2009.11.21 05:08:00 -
[323]
rally point, yard, forsaken den, are all i really remember
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.21 05:20:00 -
[324]
are they level 1 sites or just 1 per level ? seems a bit weird u can get level 1 amols in low sec. Should be 4 00 amols or possibly lower level ones depending on spawn roll. per level Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Pointfive
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Posted - 2009.11.21 05:28:00 -
[325]
There are 5 of them at one time. But they can get bugged and then stop re spawning for the rest of the day.
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Lusulpher
Blackwater Syndicate Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.11.21 06:33:00 -
[326]
You guys are missing the big picture.
Nullsec is for building an empire.
With this new Sov platform, you can upgrade nullsec to near the safety and cozy feeling as highsec.
Lowsec is the new lawless land if the "Corruption" changes go through. Dust514 is supposed to start there but end in null.
Eventually, actual empires will form with Treaties, culture, and security policies that are all flexible. And if you don't like them, harass them out of your neighbouring space, but you won't be doing it with moongold and dread/titan stockpiles.
This is the essence of the Wild West and reality. Yeah, real social activity in my EVE?! In 2 yrs this will be more than a game, it will be Chess. 7 |
Zahorite
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Posted - 2009.11.21 10:55:00 -
[327]
Just wanted to post about the people that are saying that this could cause inflation in the game.
Sure it could. Of course if we look back historically in the game prices have actually been falling for items. For instance a lot of people are worried that eventually the price for Tech I ships will fall to such a point that you could buy one off the market, scrap it, and then sell the minerals for a profit.
If let's say all the players could double their isk per hour or basically make the equivlant of lvl 4 missions we won't see a ton of change. A lot of those players will spend the extra isk on pvp ships and get them blown up. In turn this will raise the prices for pvp ships, but manufacturing players will respond and start making more of them. Basically we may see a spike say a month after these changes that will last a couple months at most. And then it will probably stabalize at something like 10-20% higher prices. Of course since the isk will spread out in the economy a bit most people will be 10-20% better off anyway. The only exception would be the mission runners, who won't be making as much, but salvage should go back up a little bit if more people lose ships in pvp. That will probably balance any minor increase in the market overall.
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Tinker1947
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Posted - 2009.11.21 11:05:00 -
[328]
Couple of questions
When a system don't have a ice belt with upgrading will it get some Ice and if so, just the region type or all 4 types.
Are Jump Bridges still 2 per system max.
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Tharrn
Amarr Epitoth Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.21 12:36:00 -
[329]
Sorry about not reading all pages (yet) but this strikes me as bad:
This upgrade provides a variety of salvage & archaeology sites to explore. Every level of upgrade will give you an increasing chance per level increase in being able to find one. These sites run on a 12 hour re-spawn delay.
Does this basically means those people who can be on right after downtime harvest these sites? Daily? That would be pretty bad. Needs some random factor IMHO.
-----
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Elassus Herron
Caldari Construction Cabal Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
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Posted - 2009.11.21 14:53:00 -
[330]
Edited by: Elassus Herron on 21/11/2009 14:54:31 It seems there are two things I'd like to ask about, which I think would go a long way towards improving this system (though the improvement is vast over the first iteration):
1) allow the corp holding the iHub to set a system tax (and I agree, it should come out before the corp tax, to prevent circumvention). Have it show up on a line on the upper left, thus:
System: BL-AH Held by: XYZ Alliance Managed by: ABC Corp Tax rate: 5.00% Security Status: 0.0 (-0.15)
And have the PVE upgrades in force show up in the Show Info window, so visitors can know what stuff (CAs, Pro sites, mining sites, etc.) have been boosted.
There! Now all you alliances have a passive income source: the PVEers working your systems. They also know the tax rate, and how much they can earn there, so there's an automatic market mechanism in place to draw players to your space, and make ISK from them (obviously, the corp holding the iHub doesn't pay taxes to itself. That's dirty). Mining can be taxed easily through refine withholding, so that's no big deal. This allows NRDS alliances to invest in systems without having all their upgrades exploited.
Second: I also agree, that the mining upgrade should include ice. Even though we (theoretically) will have fewer POSs to fuel, I'd love to be able to get better ice to fuel them.
And I want to see the iHub get extra doodads on the model for the upgrades, because it's cool.
EH EDIT: PS, all the pro sites I ever did (in nullsec, or anywhere) were terrible. I hope they get better.
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Solid Prefekt
Haven Front
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Posted - 2009.11.21 15:37:00 -
[331]
I am loving what I see so far. You are putting corps that think they are PVP first into an interesting position where if they build up too much then they will have trouble getting participation in Ops. It also gives you an incentive to live in your area if you want to get any value out of it. Corps that want pvp can then hit the systems that have been built up a lot and force those corps to fight to protect their assets.
As for the specific cost settings, those can easily be changed as needed to balance things out. Something you could not easily do with the current SOV system.
This is tremendously better then the existing SOV system.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.22 08:49:00 -
[332]
If you want to know what the Military Index upgrades are like, feel free to follow the progress in this thread:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1211774
Summary so far: 1) Index level reading of the I-Hub is unreliable - it displays different things to people observing it at the same time. If you see it as a lower level than it actually is, you cannot install an upgrade.
2) Collision radius of the I-Hub is too large. If you bookmark it, you need to warp at 20 to avoid bouncing.
3) How you can set the reinforcement timer of the I-Hub is unknown.
4) Raising the military index to level 4 seems fairly easy for 5-10 people in less than a week. It is unknown if belt ratting with good truesec contributes positively to this.
5) Income from Cosmic Anomalies generated by level 1 and 2 upgrades is negligible, < 10M isk/hour in bounties (10% corp tax rate). You should be able to earn more in very crappy truesec. Loot is nonexistent (same or worse than lower level missions), but salvage proceeds are more comparable to belt rats.
6) You can raise the index without having upgrades installed; i.e. you can raise the index to 5 without having levels 1-4 installed, but you must install the lower levels to install level 5. Upgrades are 250K m3, so you can fit exactly one of them in a jump freighter.
We'll be testing level 3-4 CA upgrades after the next downtime. We also have Entrapment upgrades loaded and I will post the results of that once we have them.
I'm neither optimistic nor pessimistic at this point. Hopefully, with level 4-5 upgrades, CA's will be more profitable than conventional ratting in perfect truesec. If it isn't, then I'd classify the approach as a failure unless significant changes (e.g. bounty increase) are made.
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Neu Bastian
Minmatar Valklear Guard
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Posted - 2009.11.22 15:56:00 -
[333]
Originally by: Tharrn Sorry about not reading all pages (yet) but this strikes me as bad:
This upgrade provides a variety of salvage & archaeology sites to explore. Every level of upgrade will give you an increasing chance per level increase in being able to find one. These sites run on a 12 hour re-spawn delay.
Does this basically means those people who can be on right after downtime harvest these sites? Daily? That would be pretty bad. Needs some random factor IMHO.
so do FW plexes.
We're still waiting for that.
Quote:
Neu Bastian Valklear Guard - CEO
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.23 02:10:00 -
[334]
and please fix the CA not despawning issue otherwise there will eb complaints Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Windryder
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Posted - 2009.11.23 09:23:00 -
[335]
I know these comments will get lost in the noise but...
I honestly think that while the attempted sov changes and hubs are a positive step forward, I think that CCP is putting the cart before the horse by attempting to overhaul the player sov system.
To be honest, I believe that you should be focussing on the NPC sov system.
I believe that the player sov system would benefit the most from CCP being able to answer, for itself/to itself, questions like;
* How do 0.0 NPC entities hold and maintain sov? What do they get out of it? What mechanism makes their space immune to being taken? What structures/jammers do they have in place that stop you deploying cyno jammers, outposts etc?
* How do the Empire NPC entities hold and maintain regional sov? What is the actual relationship between sec-level and distance from a Concord Jump Drone hub? How do Concord/DED drones jump into hi-sec systems? What structures/jammers do they have in place that stop you deploying moon-miners in 0.4+, assigning fighters in 0.4 and anchoring anything in 0.8 or higher?
* How do NPC corporations drop Stations in systems belonging to hostile factions without losing them? What structures/modules do NPC entities have in place that allow the use of gate and station guns? What tech do they have that enables multiple stations per system?
I honestly think being able to answer such questions will enable you to build a more integrated and logical sov system for the entire game universe.
(I am NOT saying that the Empire tech and Concord drones be available to players BUT that the system for PCs be the same system as for NPCs.)
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Murauke
Red White and Blue DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2009.11.23 11:58:00 -
[336]
OK so quick question,
will all systems start with level one industry and miltary come the patch? Another way to say this is are they are systems that are going to be maxed out level wise for the best ores and best anomilies?
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.11.23 15:25:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Murauke OK so quick question,
will all systems start with level one industry and miltary come the patch? Another way to say this is are they are systems that are going to be maxed out level wise for the best ores and best anomilies?
Not that ive tested it on sisi but my understanding is all the indexes are started at 0. They raise as conditions are met (ie mining index rises when you mine. Ive heard of no plans to start any indexes at 5- and i dont see any good reason for doing so.
Sov itself has a "grace" period where sov remains at their privious level (for the ship manus that have sov based prereqs). But even sov will degrade if not upgraded appropriately.
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XXXAKTIVE
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Posted - 2009.11.23 16:53:00 -
[338]
I like the hub idea, but I would like to talk about numbers. I am one of the pets of the big alliance and I rent a system with my friend. Nowdays I have a cynojam, jump bridge, cynogen and capital assembly array. It means I will have to pay 39 million isk after the update to have same modules. Ok it means 39x30 days=1,170 billion isk per month. Then I have a rent fee, which is about 1 billion isk as well. So it will be 2,17 billion isk total for system a month. Outrageous, dont U think? It also means that I will spend a hell of a lot of time to just to earn money to pay for the system.
About these pirate complexes... I think that it would be fair if ONLY MEMBERS OF corp, that owns the hub would be able to locate them. It is unfair if anyone can fly to your system with your TCU and do anomalies there.
There are very interesting upgrades of the hub, but U missed one-the upgrade for ratting. I mean rasing quality of the system.Why not to present the upgrade like that?
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Quesa
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.23 18:26:00 -
[339]
Edited by: Quesa on 23/11/2009 18:26:19 I went through most of the thread and I have a few detail questions. If I've missed an answer to one of the following questions, by a Dev, please feel free to comment.
1)Will all indecis start at 0 when dominion is released? 2)Can HUB ownership be transfered? 3)What activity increases which index? Do running plexes and Anoms in your system increase them? 4)Will activities in a specific system only increase the index in said system or will the index in systems throughout a constellation gain a benifit? 5)Will the POS fuel discount increase as an index increases? 6)Will Dominion allow Corporations to claim sov? (If not, why?) 7)Will the index that is affected by mining be increased by how much m3 is pulled, how many rocks are destroyed or how many people are participating in the activity? 8)Will certain POS arrays, such as the refining arrays, be adjusted to make 0.0 life for smaller entities more attractive and possible? 9)What was the thought process behind making HUB's and the top tiered upgrades to large to fit into even a maxed out JF?
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Pointfive
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Posted - 2009.11.23 20:42:00 -
[340]
So far in a level 4 upgrade system, you are probably better off ratting. I still spawns mostly hub and lower anomalies. There are some havens which are nice, but i haven't seen more than 1 up at a time. Income so far is no where near level 4. If they actually removed the lower anomalies as you upgrade it might be worth it. But so far its not. It could be a nice system. But they have a week to make it so. If it goes live like this, most people are not going to bother keeping systems upgraded.
Theres a thread in the test forum for more details.
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xTyberiousx
Gallente DEATHFUNK Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.23 20:52:00 -
[341]
I dunno...
The more I think the Dominon upgrades the more discontent I am with them especially regarding the system upgrades. A vast number of your subscribers pay to combat player vs player. Many of these individuals rely on plex'ing as a source of income to fund thier pvp habits (new ships / fittings etc.).
Increased plex'es means increased loot availablitity, increased loot availablitiy means a drop in value for those items. The drop in value means that more time would likey have to be spent doing more plex'es to earn the same "value".
Ships are getting some changes regarding the build cost (reduction in high end ores) I am in doubt that it will be enough from what I have read thus far to off set the proposed increases in plex spawns.
In order to keep the "value" of items the reduction in ship construction cost would have to drop in relation to the number of plex'es being added to the game or the approximate increase in dead space item availablitiy.
All this is simply going to do with it's current design is create infaltion within the eve economy. Meaning that more of our time will be spent trying to earn isk to replace ships that have seen little change in there value.
Just my 2 cents.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.23 23:06:00 -
[342]
Some feedback from Sisi:
1) Hub and upgrade sizes (500K m3 for the hub, 250K for level 4 and 500K for level 5 upgrades, 400-500K for cyno beacon, jammer, and jump bridge upgrades) force people to use regular freighters to upgrade their space. For this reason, more distant regions that aren't serviced using existing logistics networks will be very difficult to upgrade in the future.
Since regions distant from empire are already at a disadvantage (due to cost of maintaining logistics), I think these sizes are too large. If I were designing this, I'd make no module/upgrade/hub larger than 250K m3, so at least they can fit in a jump freighter.
2) We have a system upgraded to level 4 for Cosmic Anomalies (known as Pirate Detection Upgrade), and as I noted previously noted, it's bearing out that these upgrades are good for residents of crappy space. However, they only appear to be about equal to ratting in good truesec, and only for maybe 2-4 people per system. I don't know what the cost of the upgrade modules will be, but if you're talking a billion or something, then those alliances who already have enough good trusec for their members probably won't upgrade very much if at all. There's no reason to.
3) Running CA's absolutely wrecks Pirate Faction standing. Doing enough CA's over the weekend to get about 50M in bounties, my Blood Raider faction standing went from +0.1 to -2.12. At first I thought this was due to me popping some structures early on, but after testing it again today I can confirm it happens just from killing NPCs.
Ratters know they can both rat and run missions for the same faction. With CA's, this isn't an option, and more than that the damage will quickly be irreparable (easy to fall below -5 unmodified).
4) Underlying disparities in game design between factions and regions: The Drone regions will see no benefit from the Entrapment upgrade. Others, including Delve, will see a short term benefit if they install the Entrapment upgrade at all. The problem is there are no Blood Raider 7/8/9 complexes. You get 6/10 or 10/10. This will lead to loot from these becoming cheap if the upgrades are used, and devaluing the upgrade by its very nature. The value of Overseer Effects isn't enough to make running them worthwhile.
Without a revamp to some underlying aspects of PvE, most of the upgrades are of minimal to no value.
5) We have yet to see the effects of the level 5 Detection upgrade, and I hope we do tomorrow. From what I've seen so far, you still can only begin to approach the isk/hour of running level 4 missions in highsec. With a level 4 Detection upgrade, you're still earning less than mission running in complete safety, and only that much for about 2-4 people in one system at a time.
Maybe the level 5 upgrade is all kittens and rainbows, but I'm very skeptical.
At this time, I think CCP should reconsider all the issues that have been raised in threads like this, and consider holding off on this patch until they are all addressed. 0.0 should be more than an end, in and of itself. It should have its own advantages, generating isk/hour casually among them, beyond being a place you can see a colored dot on the map, name a station, and essentially play Eve on "hard" mode.
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.24 02:01:00 -
[343]
Originally by: XXXAKTIVE Edited by: XXXAKTIVE on 23/11/2009 17:03:16
I like the hub idea, but I would like to talk about numbers. I am one of the pets of the big alliance and I rent a system with my friend. Nowdays I have a cynojam, jump bridge, cynogen and capital assembly array. It means I will have to pay 39 million isk after the update to have same modules. Ok it means 39x30 days=1,170 billion isk per month. Then I have a rent fee, which is about 1 billion isk as well. So it will be 2,17 billion isk total for system a month. Outrageous, dont U think? It also means that I will spend a hell of a lot of time to just to earn money to pay for the system. And also I will have to stick to PVE much more than PVP to get my system up and running. It will make me very unhappy 100%
About these pirate complexes... I think that it would be fair if ONLY MEMBERS OF corp, that owns the hub would be able to locate them. It is unfair if anyone can fly to your system with your TCU and do anomalies there.
There are very interesting upgrades of the hub, but U missed one-the upgrade for ratting. I mean rasing quality of the system.Why not to present the upgrade like that?
I already feel that U already nerfed drops from rats and made ratting harder as well as cut drops in exploration sites.
if you think these numbers are bad then you should have seen the pre fix numbers... all that you just described would cost 75 million isk a day... not the current 39 million. Honestly if its just you and your friend in your system then you really shouldn't be out in null sec. its allaince space and unless you find more people to help support your endeavor your crys to lessen the price will fall on deaf ears here. the prices are good as they are and will not change just because 2 people want ccp to lower the price to support single player activity. sounds like your a carebear whos found a way out of your play pen...
anyone should be able to run the plexs in null sec as it is a sand box and everyone should be able to get to it. if you dont like other people using your space fight them to get them out. simple as that.
No i think there is the one in there for ratting as well. its under the military index of the hub... so im pretty sure ratting will also improve WITH THE USE OF THE SYSTEM.
rofl... when did you get into null sec? and what true sec level system do you run in?
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.24 04:40:00 -
[344]
Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 24/11/2009 04:44:33 Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 24/11/2009 04:42:05 Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 24/11/2009 04:41:15 CCP Hammer you are so dumb when it comes to 0.0 content it hurts to even know you have a position at CCP at all.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/14/feature/3751/EVE-Online-Dominion-Interview.html
Quote:
How will these changes impact resources in the game? Do you fear a change to the economy? Noah Ward: The biggest change to resources that will happen in Dominion 1.0 is that players owning space in 0.0 space will be able to upgrade the density so that more people can live in a given system.
The income however isn't being increased much over what players can get from level 4 mission in the initial point release so we don't expect a massive exodus of people out of empire space or a massive change in the influx of money or resources.
We're going to watch how the resource upgrades take hold and iterate on them. The majority of the upgrades revolve around exploration content and we have plans to boost that content, but not until we let players get used to the system and we're sure we're not going to crash the economy.
According to your newest interview you want some people pay tons of money and spend time upgrading and maintaining to be worse then level 4 missions. Are you ****ing serious? You need to do something so maybe one day you can think straight and actually provide something worth while to the residents of 0.0 space and not have people do level 4 missions in highsec just to provide themselves money to do pvp in 0.0 this is so backwards it makes me want to scream in your face until you get the point.
More then 1/2 of your current "upgrades" for 0.0 sov **** dont even work the way they are intent how can you say this patch is even close to ready?
If something we are paying for and doing tons of ****ing work for isn't innately better them something any old dumbass can walk in an do missions for what the hell is the point of that content existing at all?
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.11.24 10:11:00 -
[345]
Edited by: Future Mutant on 24/11/2009 10:11:32
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
CCP Hammer you are so dumb when it comes to 0.0 content it hurts to even know you have a position at CCP at all.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/14/feature/3751/EVE-Online-Dominion-Interview.html
Quote:
How will these changes impact resources in the game? Do you fear a change to the economy? Noah Ward: The biggest change to resources that will happen in Dominion 1.0 is that players owning space in 0.0 space will be able to upgrade the density so that more people can live in a given system.
The income however isn't being increased much over what players can get from level 4 mission in the initial point release so we don't expect a massive exodus of people out of empire space or a massive change in the influx of money or resources.
We're going to watch how the resource upgrades take hold and iterate on them. The majority of the upgrades revolve around exploration content and we have plans to boost that content, but not until we let players get used to the system and we're sure we're not going to crash the economy.
According to your newest interview you want some people pay tons of money and spend time upgrading and maintaining to be worse then level 4 missions. Are you ****ing serious? You need to do something so maybe one day you can think straight and actually provide something worth while to the residents of 0.0 space and not have people do level 4 missions in highsec just to provide themselves money to do pvp in 0.0 this is so backwards it makes me want to scream in your face until you get the point.
More then 1/2 of your current "upgrades" for 0.0 sov **** dont even work the way they are intent how can you say this patch is even close to ready?
If something we are paying for and doing tons of ****ing work for isn't innately better them something any old dumbass can walk in an do missions for what the hell is the point of that content existing at all?
1 ****ing week to setup new ****ing sov structures is not enough time considering your going to be a smug **** about all this stuff that doesn't work. 1 week is not enough time to move the dozen's of freighters of crap in place just to get something about the same as what we already have.
lol so whining didnt entirely work so you thought you would try abusive belligerence? Eve doesnt need ppl like you- your nothing special.
Ccp has proposed changes that will provide more income then the activity used to. If you have some skewed version of what lvl 4 missioning makes then thats your problem. Having visited null i can say that the changes will make many things about null pay much more then lvl 4 missions. I would like to see cap ship changes ironed out too- but crying about it isnt going to get it done any faster.
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Quesa
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.24 17:27:00 -
[346]
Originally by: Quesa
I went through most of the thread and I have a few detail questions. If I've missed an answer to one of the following questions, by a Dev, please feel free to comment.
1)Will all indecis start at 0 when dominion is released? 2)Can HUB ownership be transfered? 3)What activity increases which index? Do running plexes and Anoms in your system increase them? 4)Will activities in a specific system only increase the index in said system or will the index in systems throughout a constellation gain a benifit? 5)Will the POS fuel discount increase as an index increases? 6)Will Dominion allow Corporations to claim sov? (If not, why?) 7)Will the index that is affected by mining be increased by how much m3 is pulled, how many rocks are destroyed or how many people are participating in the activity? 8)Will certain POS arrays, such as the refining arrays, be adjusted to make 0.0 life for smaller entities more attractive and possible? 9)What was the thought process behind making HUB's and the top tiered upgrades to large to fit into even a maxed out JF?
Edit: more! 10)When talking of the upgrade that increases the chance that a WH or Plex will spawn in the upgraded system: Are these plexes or WH's in ADDITION TO what is currently spawning or are these upgrades simply moving the spawn points from one system to another? 10a)If it's the later, how will multiple upgraded systems in the same region affect each other?
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Sunbird Huy
Caldari WEPRA CORP
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Posted - 2009.11.24 17:39:00 -
[347]
Edited by: Sunbird Huy on 24/11/2009 17:40:06 Edited by: Sunbird Huy on 24/11/2009 17:39:16 Hey folks. Nice work, just one remark - for all my militia fellas that are about to be griefed once they open this thread:
I HEARD THERE WILL BE NO MORE DEADSPACE MODULE DROPS AFTER DOMINION.
*Sunbird Huy flexes his fingers for the smack storm in militia chat :D
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XXXAKTIVE
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Posted - 2009.11.24 18:33:00 -
[348]
Originally by: Lolion Reglo
if you think these numbers are bad then you should have seen the pre fix numbers... all that you just described would cost 75 million isk a day... not the current 39 million. Honestly if its just you and your friend in your system then you really shouldn't be out in null sec. its allaince space and unless you find more people to help support your endeavor your crys to lessen the price will fall on deaf ears here. the prices are good as they are and will not change just because 2 people want ccp to lower the price to support single player activity. sounds like your a carebear whos found a way out of your play pen...
anyone should be able to run the plexs in null sec as it is a sand box and everyone should be able to get to it. if you dont like other people using your space fight them to get them out. simple as that.
No i think there is the one in there for ratting as well. its under the military index of the hub... so im pretty sure ratting will also improve WITH THE USE OF THE SYSTEM.
rofl... when did you get into null sec? and what true sec level system do you run in?
2250 million isk for having all needed stuff in system? lol. It means that installing this hub will be just useless. Most of the people stay with the way it is without hubs. Yeah yeah.. sandbox.. thiefs will do your complexes in not your prime time, lol. Just one corp pays, others are using for free lol. This is kinda bad.
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.24 23:28:00 -
[349]
Originally by: XXXAKTIVE
2250 million isk for having all needed stuff in system? lol. It means that installing this hub will be just useless. Most of the people stay with the way it is without hubs. Yeah yeah.. sandbox.. thiefs will do your complexes in not your prime time, lol. Just one corp pays, others are using for free lol. This is kinda bad.
perhaps installing a hub for an alliance or corp that only has two people to use the system yeah, its useless. Hence the entire point of having it cost that much. It takes MORE than two people to hold space and the groups that have a ****on cant hold too much.
And yes i expect people to run complexes in my down time. Hell it helps me by keeping the system in use which means at a point ill get to lvl V upgrades. 20 anomalies to use that respawn after they are cleared.... hmmm yeah no benefits there at all.... right... Honestly as our corp expands our system we will want people to use our space. that way they will buy our stuff from our station and expand our upgrades, and create an economy out in our region. so perhaps you can get your head out of the warped "its my system no one else can use it" vision and maybe you could see why this expansion is desperately needed. or not and you can leave... up to you really. more space for us in the end
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Sarah Shadows
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Posted - 2009.11.24 23:33:00 -
[350]
Originally by: XXXAKTIVE
Originally by: Lolion Reglo
It means that installing this hub will be just useless. Most of the people stay with the way it is without hubs. Yeah yeah.. sandbox.. thiefs will do your complexes in not your prime time, lol. Just one corp pays, others are using for free lol. This is kinda bad.
You have a great point there XXXAKTIVE, anyone thought of the idea that no matter who uses the space it upgrades? Might solve a few things as big alliances could/ would tolerate carebareing in the off hours. It could give the ccp intent of more people out in 0.0 a bit more incentive. CVA is supposed to be the model and it would be a major boon to them and perhaps a model for others. If one big alliance wants to screw with another then all they have to do is go after the others unofficial/ official carebears. Which just might give the small guerilla attacks a chance to work and let the big war machines still hit the hubs. It could also encourage the holding alliance to maybe defend the carebears as they would be providing a service. Then again it might give them a lot more targets once they hit the highest upgrade.
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.24 23:44:00 -
[351]
Edited by: Lolion Reglo on 24/11/2009 23:47:54
Originally by: Sarah Shadows
Originally by: XXXAKTIVE
Originally by: Lolion Reglo
It means that installing this hub will be just useless. Most of the people stay with the way it is without hubs. Yeah yeah.. sandbox.. thiefs will do your complexes in not your prime time, lol. Just one corp pays, others are using for free lol. This is kinda bad.
You have a great point there XXXAKTIVE, anyone thought of the idea that no matter who uses the space it upgrades? Might solve a few things as big alliances could/ would tolerate carebareing in the off hours. It could give the ccp intent of more people out in 0.0 a bit more incentive. CVA is supposed to be the model and it would be a major boon to them and perhaps a model for others. If one big alliance wants to screw with another then all they have to do is go after the others unofficial/ official carebears. Which just might give the small guerilla attacks a chance to work and let the big war machines still hit the hubs. It could also encourage the holding alliance to maybe defend the carebears as they would be providing a service. Then again it might give them a lot more targets once they hit the highest upgrade.
Your giving props to the wrong person sarah... XXXAKTIVE DOESN'T want people to use his and his friends system, they want it all to themselves. He is complaining about how other people will use his space and help increase its level and who he doesn't think that's fair.
But then again i forgot this until now... He rents space... so its not really his concern about prices anyway, or About what becomes available. Thus rendering his argument even more invalid...
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Herring
Caldari Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2009.11.25 11:46:00 -
[352]
Originally by: Dianabolic Soundwave dear boy, I have a question with regards your anomalies:
Have CCP done any number crunching as to how much isk would be generated through a fully upgraded system? 20 insta-spawning plex's sounds, to me, like an awful lot of cash flooding in to the system. Knowing just how much my corp alone could milk out of these I would not be surprised to see at least 500m PER DAY being milked out of these systems in pure bounties.
How is this going to affect the economy of EvE? Just running on "doily maths" this is going to lead to MASSIVE inflation, isn't it? Making the isk people do have, now, completely worthless within 100days when everyone becomes a billionaire from npc'ing?
Has any consideration been given to follow the drone region model, whereby you don't get any bounties (or certainly a vastly reduced one) but the meta-drop levels are increased dramatically? Or increased salvage? The cost of upgrading these systems to handle this look to be around ~1bn per month - using the above that's just two days of npc'ing for a corp, the rest going back in to empire to further inflate prices of *stuff*.
I sincerely do hope that some serious consideration has been given to this isk-tap because in all the notes I've seen for dominion there is nowhere near the kind of isk-sink that would be required to balance out such as HUGE influx of isk.
Thanks in advance of an answer that isn't an anomaly!
This also interests me; when I saw that there would be anomolies available 24/7 I immediately thought yeah, this is something ben bernanke would do :). I see inflation coming except in rare loot drops, which, unless the drop rates change, will fight inflation and drop in price due to their overabundance.
Perhaps there will be a huge suprise sink to go along with this stuff...
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.25 21:36:00 -
[353]
Originally by: Herring
Originally by: Dianabolic Soundwave dear boy, I have a question with regards your anomalies:
Have CCP done any number crunching as to how much isk would be generated through a fully upgraded system? 20 insta-spawning plex's sounds, to me, like an awful lot of cash flooding in to the system. Knowing just how much my corp alone could milk out of these I would not be surprised to see at least 500m PER DAY being milked out of these systems in pure bounties.
How is this going to affect the economy of EvE? Just running on "doily maths" this is going to lead to MASSIVE inflation, isn't it? Making the isk people do have, now, completely worthless within 100days when everyone becomes a billionaire from npc'ing?
Has any consideration been given to follow the drone region model, whereby you don't get any bounties (or certainly a vastly reduced one) but the meta-drop levels are increased dramatically? Or increased salvage? The cost of upgrading these systems to handle this look to be around ~1bn per month - using the above that's just two days of npc'ing for a corp, the rest going back in to empire to further inflate prices of *stuff*.
I sincerely do hope that some serious consideration has been given to this isk-tap because in all the notes I've seen for dominion there is nowhere near the kind of isk-sink that would be required to balance out such as HUGE influx of isk.
Thanks in advance of an answer that isn't an anomaly!
This also interests me; when I saw that there would be anomolies available 24/7 I immediately thought yeah, this is something ben bernanke would do :). I see inflation coming except in rare loot drops, which, unless the drop rates change, will fight inflation and drop in price due to their overabundance.
Perhaps there will be a huge suprise sink to go along with this stuff...
perhaps but judging on how much CCP is limiting the quality of anomalies so far im pretty sure they are going to have a nice solid control on lot drops to control inflation and price sinks. which is the one complain people are arguing is that they want more isk but they aren't taking into account the market crash that could result if CCP allowed millions to be made out in null sec more than high sec. So yeah your right but i trust the economic team at CCP to do this right.
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Hrodgar Ortal
Minmatar Ma'adim Logistics
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Posted - 2009.11.26 05:56:00 -
[354]
Originally by: Lolion Reglo
perhaps but judging on how much CCP is limiting the quality of anomalies so far im pretty sure they are going to have a nice solid control on lot drops to control inflation and price sinks. which is the one complain people are arguing is that they want more isk but they aren't taking into account the market crash that could result if CCP allowed millions to be made out in null sec more than high sec. So yeah your right but i trust the economic team at CCP to do this right.
Think you are forgetting the alternative income source. If people make 30m/h from lvl4s or 35m/h from 0.0 (just random numbers) it won't cause noticable inflation. Nor will it increase the amount of faction/officer mods as a lot of them currently come from ratting and the people who rat will probably do so less.
That people want orders of magnitude higher income in 0.0 compared to high-sec is another matter. Mostly they are ignoring the passive income streams that alliances make which makes up a signifiant portion of the total income in 0.0 and will continue to do so after dominion. That this money doesn't come to the players is irrelevant as they would have to pay the same amount to the alliances from their own pockets if it wasn't there. All in all the income seems to be fairly ok. If a fully upgraded system can keep 30-40 accounts busy with lvl4 level income without counting moons/planets then I'd say they have come very close to a good balance.
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Pointfive
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Posted - 2009.11.26 07:30:00 -
[355]
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
Originally by: Lolion Reglo
All in all the income seems to be fairly ok. If a fully upgraded system can keep 30-40 accounts busy with lvl4 level income without counting moons/planets then I'd say they have come very close to a good balance.
It currently provides less than level 4 income. And will support 3-4 people. Income from bounties on anomalies is less than ratting in good true sec. Better than ratting in awful true sec. Loot and salvage are far worse.
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Hrodgar Ortal
Minmatar Ma'adim Logistics
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Posted - 2009.11.26 10:43:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Pointfive
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
All in all the income seems to be fairly ok. If a fully upgraded system can keep 30-40 accounts busy with lvl4 level income without counting moons/planets then I'd say they have come very close to a good balance.
It currently provides less than level 4 income. And will support 3-4 people. Income from bounties on anomalies is less than ratting in good true sec. Better than ratting in awful true sec. Loot and salvage are far worse.
Most space isn't good true sec to start with. Also you are focusing on one aspect namely anomalies, there are several other. For example how much income will the grav sites yield? The added chance of plexes? etc etc. I'm not saying the income of the anomalies are perfect, honestly have no idea about the income they give. But overall it seems to be ok. That they might have to tweek the income level from each anomaly, possible, but it should be fairly easy to do.
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Tyr Zewa
Caldari Tax Collectors
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Posted - 2009.11.26 11:15:00 -
[357]
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
Originally by: Pointfive
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
All in all the income seems to be fairly ok. If a fully upgraded system can keep 30-40 accounts busy with lvl4 level income without counting moons/planets then I'd say they have come very close to a good balance.
It currently provides less than level 4 income. And will support 3-4 people. Income from bounties on anomalies is less than ratting in good true sec. Better than ratting in awful true sec. Loot and salvage are far worse.
Most space isn't good true sec to start with. Also you are focusing on one aspect namely anomalies, there are several other. For example how much income will the grav sites yield? The added chance of plexes? etc etc. I'm not saying the income of the anomalies are perfect, honestly have no idea about the income they give. But overall it seems to be ok. That they might have to tweek the income level from each anomaly, possible, but it should be fairly easy to do.
You don't need to say that you "honestly have no idea" because your post makes it clear that you're clueless. If you'd bothered to read the rest of the thread and the thread about testing of CAs you'd have known better.
Current level5 CA upgrades will support 10 people tops because there's to many low level anomalies. Anomalies pay as much as level4s, if you don't include the LP. Grav sites have always been useless, more of something useless is still useless. Plexes make nice money so that upgrade will likely be worth it, for a while until the loot value goes down because of the market influx.
With this expansion you're still better off having an empire alt to do level4s with so you can pay for your 0.0 pvp. And yes this is an empire mission running alt. This is also pretty much risk free unless you fly a 5bil faction fit ship that is a profitable jihad target. Do level4's for more money than ratting while watching a dvd, or do CAs for less money than level4s while watching local, your pick?
CCP is once again releasing broken half assed content with the premise of fixing it later on - do you need a list of things that have not been fixed since 2003 to see why this sucks?
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Hrodgar Ortal
Minmatar Ma'adim Logistics
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Posted - 2009.11.26 13:40:00 -
[358]
Originally by: Tyr Zewa
You don't need to say that you "honestly have no idea" because your post makes it clear that you're clueless. If you'd bothered to read the rest of the thread and the thread about testing of CAs you'd have known better.
Current level5 CA upgrades will support 10 people tops because there's to many low level anomalies. Anomalies pay as much as level4s, if you don't include the LP. Grav sites have always been useless, more of something useless is still useless. Plexes make nice money so that upgrade will likely be worth it, for a while until the loot value goes down because of the market influx.
With this expansion you're still better off having an empire alt to do level4s with so you can pay for your 0.0 pvp. And yes this is an empire mission running alt. This is also pretty much risk free unless you fly a 5bil faction fit ship that is a profitable jihad target. Do level4's for more money than ratting while watching a dvd, or do CAs for less money than level4s while watching local, your pick?
CCP is once again releasing broken half assed content with the premise of fixing it later on - do you need a list of things that have not been fixed since 2003 to see why this sucks?
I've read this thread. And again you are focusing on one of the income areas. Also is it 3-4 or is it 10? Quite a big difference.
They have said the grav sites from the improvements are not the common ones but similar to the ones in wormholes which are not bad.
You have somehow read that you should get a much higher income than lvl4s. Nowhere has CCP stated that. They have said that you will get similar level income. They have exaggerated the amount of people each system will support that is true.
CCP has stated at least once than they don't want to trash the economy. Thats probably the reason the income from anomalies are below what you expect. But people also need to not expect to cut gold with a penknife at every turn.
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.26 16:00:00 -
[359]
acutally loot drops going up if youre running these plexes and getting t1 loot drops and then putting them on youre battleships and overheating all the time u can just burn those mods right out get t2 performacnea and simply repalce from rat loot Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
ep1k
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.26 18:14:00 -
[360]
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
Originally by: Tyr Zewa
You don't need to say that you "honestly have no idea" because your post makes it clear that you're clueless. If you'd bothered to read the rest of the thread and the thread about testing of CAs you'd have known better.
Current level5 CA upgrades will support 10 people tops because there's to many low level anomalies. Anomalies pay as much as level4s, if you don't include the LP. Grav sites have always been useless, more of something useless is still useless. Plexes make nice money so that upgrade will likely be worth it, for a while until the loot value goes down because of the market influx.
With this expansion you're still better off having an empire alt to do level4s with so you can pay for your 0.0 pvp. And yes this is an empire mission running alt. This is also pretty much risk free unless you fly a 5bil faction fit ship that is a profitable jihad target. Do level4's for more money than ratting while watching a dvd, or do CAs for less money than level4s while watching local, your pick?
CCP is once again releasing broken half assed content with the premise of fixing it later on - do you need a list of things that have not been fixed since 2003 to see why this sucks?
I've read this thread. And again you are focusing on one of the income areas. Also is it 3-4 or is it 10? Quite a big difference.
They have said the grav sites from the improvements are not the common ones but similar to the ones in wormholes which are not bad.
You have somehow read that you should get a much higher income than lvl4s. Nowhere has CCP stated that. They have said that you will get similar level income. They have exaggerated the amount of people each system will support that is true.
CCP has stated at least once than they don't want to trash the economy. Thats probably the reason the income from anomalies are below what you expect. But people also need to not expect to cut gold with a penknife at every turn.
They stated slightly above level 4 income. Its about 25% less than level 4 income, so the whole this is pretty pointless. Wow upgrade my space and pay huge fees so i can earn less than just running a level 4 alt. What a well thought out idea. People want to make more than level 4's, the exact ammount more is up for debate.
Making LESS than level 4,s paying for the privilege, and being at risk of getting ganked is just awful game design.
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.11.26 18:35:00 -
[361]
Originally by: ep1k
They stated slightly above level 4 income. Its about 25% less than level 4 income, so the whole this is pretty pointless. Wow upgrade my space and pay huge fees so i can earn less than just running a level 4 alt. What a well thought out idea. People want to make more than level 4's, the exact ammount more is up for debate.
Making LESS than level 4,s paying for the privilege, and being at risk of getting ganked is just awful game design.
I disagree with pretty much everything goons have said on this subject so no big suprise i disagree with your figures.
What exactly do you think the income is from a lvl 4 mission?
What do you estimate will be the income from anomalies with they system upgraded to allow 20 at any given time?
How much do you think null sec activities should make? ratting? mining? anomalies?
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ep1k
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.26 21:35:00 -
[362]
Originally by: Future Mutant
Originally by: ep1k
They stated slightly above level 4 income. Its about 25% less than level 4 income, so the whole this is pretty pointless. Wow upgrade my space and pay huge fees so i can earn less than just running a level 4 alt. What a well thought out idea. People want to make more than level 4's, the exact ammount more is up for debate.
Making LESS than level 4,s paying for the privilege, and being at risk of getting ganked is just awful game design.
I disagree with pretty much everything goons have said on this subject so no big suprise i disagree with your figures.
What exactly do you think the income is from a lvl 4 mission?
What do you estimate will be the income from anomalies with they system upgraded to allow 20 at any given time?
How much do you think null sec activities should make? ratting? mining? anomalies?
Maybe you should test things or read other poeoples post and inform yourself instead of spouting off uninformed nonsense.
Anomalies will not support 20 people, this has been pointed out several times. A fully upgraded system has about 1-2 max tier anoamlies with 3-5 slightly lower ones, and all the rest are crap anomalies with under 5misk/hour.
The top ones earn you about 20-22 mil an hour on bounties. Salavage and loot are crap and come out as a wash compared to level 4s. If you arent making more than 25 million off of bounties/mission rewards/LP doing level 4's then you are doing them wrong.
So income is less than level 4s. For about 5 people per system.
Feel free to test this. Or continue being threatened that your precious level 4s are at risk and dont bother testing this stuff.
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.11.26 23:07:00 -
[363]
Originally by: ep1k
Originally by: Future Mutant
Originally by: ep1k
They stated slightly above level 4 income. Its about 25% less than level 4 income, so the whole this is pretty pointless. Wow upgrade my space and pay huge fees so i can earn less than just running a level 4 alt. What a well thought out idea. People want to make more than level 4's, the exact ammount more is up for debate.
Making LESS than level 4,s paying for the privilege, and being at risk of getting ganked is just awful game design.
I disagree with pretty much everything goons have said on this subject so no big suprise i disagree with your figures.
What exactly do you think the income is from a lvl 4 mission?
What do you estimate will be the income from anomalies with they system upgraded to allow 20 at any given time?
How much do you think null sec activities should make? ratting? mining? anomalies?
Maybe you should test things or read other poeoples post and inform yourself instead of spouting off uninformed nonsense.
Maybe you should stop lying to ppl about the updates?
Originally by: ep1k Anomalies will not support 20 people, this has been pointed out several times. A fully upgraded system has about 1-2 max tier anoamlies with 3-5 slightly lower ones, and all the rest are crap anomalies with under 5misk/hour.
So what if they only support 10 per system? you like to pvp i assume? Do that and stop crying. Your isk per hour figures are so ridiculously low that anyone thats ever ran an anomaly knows your outright lying
Originally by: ep1k The top ones earn you about 20-22 mil an hour on bounties. Salavage and loot are crap and come out as a wash compared to level 4s. If you arent making more than 25 million off of bounties/mission rewards/LP doing level 4's then you are doing them wrong.
Salvage and loot equal to lvl 4's and thats bad how? And if you arent making 25+ mill an hour in null sec NOW- your doing something wrong. After dominion more income is more.
Originally by: ep1k So income is less than level 4s. For about 5 people per system.
Blatant lie- both about the number of ppl an upgraded system supports and the isk per hour.
Originally by: ep1k Feel free to test this. Or continue being threatened that your precious level 4s are at risk and dont bother testing this stuff.
Continue being a lying, cheating, lazy scammer if you want- but dont expect everyone to fall for your idiotic tales
Null sec corps after dominion 1. corps keep moon goo income- Corps can easily use this to fully pay for all sov and system upgrade costs- wont cost the average null sec corp member a single isk.
Obviously the corps dont want to pay for upgrades- its isk out of their pocket. They would rather convince you that the upgrades are worthless.
2. members living in null will make more income. More is more. More and better rats. More and better anomalies. More and better mining sites. More and better in every way.
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Hewolf
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Posted - 2009.11.26 23:42:00 -
[364]
This might be teh wrong spot but I'm just curious. when are the Miners and the people that prefer NOT to PvP going to get some goodies?
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.11.26 23:47:00 -
[365]
Originally by: Hewolf This might be teh wrong spot but I'm just curious. when are the Miners and the people that prefer NOT to PvP going to get some goodies?
Pve lovers arent exactly left out of dominion either. Check out the pirate ship changes, the faction ship changes, and the new faction ships. A few other things are nice changes as well- but less glamorous. Like the revamped mail system.
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XXXAKTIVE
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Posted - 2009.11.26 23:57:00 -
[366]
Edited by: XXXAKTIVE on 26/11/2009 23:59:40
Originally by: Future Mutant
I disagree with pretty much everything goons have said on this subject so no big suprise i disagree with your figures.
What exactly do you think the income is from a lvl 4 mission?
What do you estimate will be the income from anomalies with they system upgraded to allow 20 at any given time?
How much do you think null sec activities should make? ratting? mining? anomalies?
1. 4th level missions If U do them wisely (I mean NOT completing missions like angelganza and having them 5-6 every day for a week),average income on a golem on 4th level missions is 12-30kk + bounty+ 5-10kk salvage + loot 5-10kk Total ammount per hour is 23-50 kk per hour (maybe more) No risk, half afk, nicely pimped ship
2. Ratting Depends on a region and a quality of the system. Let's take blood rider/sansha zero system with average quality for ratting -0.5 If U spent 3-6 hours improving resps, depending on your luck, U get 24-30 kk bounty per hour + 20-40kk loot + 15-20kk in salvage TOTAL 59-90 kk per hour ratting (after killing 3-6 hours to make resps nice). Ratting is a good thing, but U waste a hell of a lot of time to make nice resps.
BUT... the problem is only one, lol. I am speaking about -0.5 ss standing of a 0.0 space. Considering there are enormous amounts of ****ty systems in 0.0 space with quality of -0.05 and etc, only lucky ones-the owners of systems in zeros with quality more than -0.5 can rat nicely. Others are in financial trouble and get average 20-35 kk per hour in low quality of zero space. (Comment. In NPC 0.0 space ratting is better than in PC 0.0 space at least 1.5 times in profit in the same quality of the system.
3. Mining Nice way to make money in 0.0 space, if U are mining arkonor or bistot under rorqual. Smth like 60-80kk per hour half afk on a hulk. More minig alts=more profit per hour. Not my kind of profit, 'tause it is too mudane
4.Anomalies Similar to ratting, but bounties are bigger and are about 50-100kk per hour. (if U are doing only the best ones one after other). Optimistic numbers, considering not much wasting time on locating anomalies itself. Average numbers for anomalies are 20-50kk per hour
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.11.27 00:04:00 -
[367]
Originally by: XXXAKTIVE Edited by: XXXAKTIVE on 26/11/2009 23:59:40
Originally by: Future Mutant
I disagree with pretty much everything goons have said on this subject so no big suprise i disagree with your figures.
What exactly do you think the income is from a lvl 4 mission?
What do you estimate will be the income from anomalies with they system upgraded to allow 20 at any given time?
How much do you think null sec activities should make? ratting? mining? anomalies?
1. 4th level missions If U do them wisely (I mean NOT completing missions like angelganza and having them 5-6 every day for a week),average income on a golem on 4th level missions is 12-30kk + bounty+ 5-10kk salvage + loot 5-10kk Total ammount per hour is 23-50 kk per hour (maybe more) No risk, half afk, nicely pimped ship
2. Ratting Depends on a region and a quality of the system. Let's take blood rider/sansha zero system with average quality for ratting -0.5 If U spent 3-6 hours improving resps, depending on your luck, U get 24-30 kk bounty per hour + 20-40kk loot + 15-20kk in salvage TOTAL 59-90 kk per hour ratting (after killing 3-6 hours to make resps nice). Ratting is a good thing, but U waste a hell of a lot of time to make nice resps.
BUT... the problem is only one, lol. I am speaking about -0.5 ss standing of a 0.0 space. Considering there are enormous amounts of ****ty systems in 0.0 space with quality of -0.05 and etc, only lucky ones-the owners of systems in zeros with quality more than -0.5 can rat nicely. Others are in financial trouble and get average 20-35 kk per hour in low quality of zero space. (Comment. In NPC 0.0 space ratting is better than in PC 0.0 space at least 1.5 times in profit in the same quality of the system.
3. Mining Nice way to make money in 0.0 space, if U are mining arkonor or bistot under rorqual. Smth like 60-80kk per hour half afk on a hulk. More minig alts=more profit per hour. Not my kind of profit, 'tause it is too mudane
4.Anomalies Similar to ratting, but bounties are bigger and are about 50-100kk per hour. (if U are doing only the best ones one after other). Optimistic numbers, considering not much wasting time on locating anomalies itself. Average numbers for anomalies are 20-50kk per hour
This ^^ tbh. Finally someone with some integrity. This is roughly what i know is possible now. In dominion you can expect all these figures to raise. Not drastically, but more is more. Its nice to see some ppl havent been taken by goons lies.
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.27 00:23:00 -
[368]
Originally by: Hewolf This might be teh wrong spot but I'm just curious. when are the Miners and the people that prefer NOT to PvP going to get some goodies?
If you have some guts after dominion hits there will be better mining to be had out in null sec space. and if you eman new toys to play with go play with the orca... thats less than a year old and your already bored with it?... geez. ADD much?...lol.
Also im going to also agree with Future Mutant on all of this. Increasing the income of null sec from what it is to what it will be will be benificial either way.
Not to mention i knew it was going to be a gradual change in terms of isk per hour earned out there so the market isnt given a heart attack and crashes. People are so demanding and expect instant 50 million isk per hour changes and quite honestly i think its you guys who have disilusioned yourselves and CCP has only made a reality check for what people WANT null sec to be instead of what it realisticly CAN be.
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Persepoli
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Posted - 2009.11.27 00:29:00 -
[369]
Originally by: XXXAKTIVE Edited by: XXXAKTIVE on 27/11/2009 00:11:23
Originally by: Future Mutant
I disagree with pretty much everything goons have said on this subject so no big suprise i disagree with your figures.
What exactly do you think the income is from a lvl 4 mission?
What do you estimate will be the income from anomalies with they system upgraded to allow 20 at any given time?
How much do you think null sec activities should make? ratting? mining? anomalies?
1. 4th level missions If U do them wisely (I mean NOT completing missions like angelganza and having them 5-6 every day for a week),average income on a golem on 4th level missions is 12-30kk + bounty+ 5-10kk salvage + loot 5-10kk Total ammount per hour is 23-50 kk per hour (maybe more) No risk, half afk, nicely pimped ship
2. Ratting Depends on a region and a quality of the system. Let's take blood rider/sansha zero system with average quality for ratting -0.5 If U spent 3-6 hours improving resps, depending on your luck, U get 24-30 kk bounty per hour + 20-40kk loot + 15-20kk in salvage TOTAL 59-90 kk per hour ratting (after killing 3-6 hours to make resps nice). Ratting is a good thing, but U waste a hell of a lot of time to make nice resps.
BUT... the problem is only one, lol. I am speaking about -0.5 ss standing of a 0.0 space. Considering there are enormous amounts of ****ty systems in 0.0 space with quality of -0.05 and etc, only lucky ones-the owners of systems in zeros with quality more than -0.5 can rat nicely. Others are in financial trouble and get average 20-35 kk per hour in low quality of zero space. (Comment. In NPC 0.0 space ratting is better than in PC 0.0 space at least 1.5 times in profit in the same quality of the system.
3. Mining Nice way to make money in 0.0 space, if U are mining arkonor or bistot under rorqual. Smth like 60-80kk per hour half afk on a hulk. More minig alts=more profit per hour. Not my kind of profit, 'tause it is too mudane
4.Anomalies Similar to ratting, but bounties are bigger and are about 50-100kk per hour. (if U are doing only the best ones one after other). Optimistic numbers, considering not much wasting time on locating anomalies itself. Average numbers for anomalies are 20-50kk per hour
1. All people fear the inflation caused by hubs. Yes this this is true, it will happen with a mining upgrade installed. Imagine 20+ mining bots digging arknor 24'7 under rorqual??? CHEAT, isn't it??
2. What is stopping lots of people of not going to 0.0 space??? The lack of nice high quality systems in 0.0 space. All nice quality systems are devided with huge alliances like Goons, AAA, Legion of XXDEATH (it is the other story lol, people there earn stable 60-100kk ratting per hour on alloys from drones). Are there any interest for small alliance to go to live in 0.0 space to live in -0.05 quality systems?? Hell NO!!! These systems are useless (just for digging moons only). Even pets of the alliances dont want to rent them.
The quality increasement upgrade is very much needed imho
No idea where you get your figures from, but no way in heck could you get that sort of isk ratting in 0.0. I know as have done it quite a bit.
I regularly rat Angels in a -0.97 system and at the very best (once the belts are humming with Thrones and Malks), I'd be lucky to pull in 10-15m isk per hour on a solo account. If I had a 2nd account pulling in salvage and loot (mainly for melting down tbh as this is more cost effective than trying to sell the things) this would probably be more like 15-20m isk per hour - but it would of taken me a couple of hours of solid ratting to get that belt humming. Take that into account and over a 3 or 4 hour stretch, you may be lucky to avg it at 15m per hour.
And that's not even taking into account other ratters in the system, frequent visits from folks wanting to blow you up (or ruining the spawns when they can't track you down), CTA's.
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XXXAKTIVE
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Posted - 2009.11.27 07:53:00 -
[370]
Hey, man! Are U hunting on a trasher? I was talking about golem. Ok, U gave a nice example of a system with almost top quality in 0.0 space. There are a few systems like that in each region (hard for a mortal to get there). For your info, -0.90 and -1.0 quality systems have a chance of officer resp in asteroid belts, that is why such systems are under control mostly by huge alliances, that dont want anyone nearby.
Smart ones are ratting with POS, where U store your loot and salvage from ratting. I was ratting in such top systems as well on a golem. Considering the system is filled with malakaims, chuburums, U get about 24-36kk bounty per hour + salvage at least 20kk + loot of 15-20kk. Total of 59-76kk per hour.
BUT U need a golem +salvaging 5 + imps+perfect missle skills+smart setup.
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Black MagicWoman
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Posted - 2009.11.27 13:49:00 -
[371]
Originally by: adriaans Edited by: adriaans on 18/11/2009 18:56:20 Just checked to make sure on test server,
the infrastructure hubs are 750 000 m3... HOW is a small alliance supposed to get that to it's destination... a small alliance won't have the manpower or logistics needed that the large already established ones do. If the size was reduced so that it could fit in an orca that would make it MUCH better for someone like us (it can SS and cloak when hostiles get to close). Because a freighter moving through 0.0 WILL be hunted by pretty much everyone and face it.. none of the current holders are gonna want anyone else into 0.0 with exception of people joining their blob.. sorry alliance, the most usual response you get when approaching any of the current holders is ''go back to grinding missions and ganking noobs, nub''... i highly doubt that will change.. err off topic...
point is: how is a smaller entity which wants to(and which you (ccp) wants into 0.0) supposed to be able to do a freighter run and live, especially if it is deeper into 0.0! We want to, but how we are going to get the freighter in (and pref out) alive is to me a mystery... even with nap's/blue's.
it's not like we can just get a titan to bridge it in...
also, would just like to add that i think the current high end anomalies are pretty decent, especially as i very regulary get faction drops from them (the problem is finding enough of them which with the upgrade will no longer be an issue)
Did this ever get addressed... not been able to log into sisi for a while Being in a small 0.0 corp we have the same issue
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XXXAKTIVE
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Posted - 2009.11.28 16:30:00 -
[372]
Originally by: Black MagicWoman
Did this ever get addressed... not been able to log into sisi for a while Being in a small 0.0 corp we have the same issue
I totally agree with U. Such modules must be in size to be transported by jump freighters. I am thinking of 200.000 m3. Nice solution to a problem
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.30 03:00:00 -
[373]
If you want into that space bad enough you will find a means,.... be it diplomatic or otherwise if you want it you will be there. The size is i believe is large enough and will prevent people from trying to claim more than one system at a time with one freighter.
But once again, if you think Null sec is an easy place to move into and you wont have enemies and obstacles to over come you don't belong out here.
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.30 05:40:00 -
[374]
If u want that space u simply move in bad enough, diplomatic u can still upgrade the system and with a quantium flux generator u may also get wormholes to other 00 locations where they might be quite systems where u can send a dual pve-pvp gang thro to harvest other locations
Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
WooRu
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Posted - 2009.11.30 05:51:00 -
[375]
I just checked volume of upgrade to move them , you perhaps have to considere to fix it ... you want ALL ally to be able to claim a sys in null sec and use the advantage of upgrade but HUB = 750 000m3 need a freighter to move it , cyno generator upgrade 400 000m3 need a freighter to move it , cyno jammer 500 000m3 need a freighter to move it result you will have the big ally in titan in the first low sec to jump their freighter where they need and all other ally have their freighter killed on the way to their home result only ally owning a titan wil have sov with upgrade remove a 0 please
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Kanatta Jing
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Posted - 2009.11.30 10:36:00 -
[376]
Yes the HUB size will make it tricky for small alliances to live in deep 0.0
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Spurty
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.30 23:35:00 -
[377]
Only issue I have with comments about mission running isk income is that they pretend only one account is running them. No alt salvaging / logistics behind the dps ship, all loot scooped and all salvage collected.
Its only 50mill an hour per 'team'. If you have 2 accounts here, your effective per hour income is actually a max 25mill (Still ok).
Sure, one person might be getting all of that ISK, but if it really was 50mill per hour, with 2 accounts you should be pulling in 100mill per person. No way you doing that ;-)
Having said all this, I really don't give a monkeys about how people get their isk ingame, as long as they are doing something 'ingame' to get it.
I think I'll need to find a way to make isk around March 2010. I have plenty for my burn rate.
Sooner I didn't have to spend a MONTH of 1-2 hours a night play time to make another couple of billion isk. Sooner people were considerably richer and could Leyroy Motherships into fights ALL the time without fear or worry that they would look stoopid, cause who DOESN'T have 30bill in their wallet all the time when at that level? :-)
More PVP please, less people whining about the size of some people's wallet.
Originally by: Hurley I WAS NOT QUITTING SoT AND WAS NOT THINKING ABOUT JOINING IT. PL/SoT MADE A MISTAKE AND ARE NOT MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT IT OR FIX IT.
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Windryder
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Posted - 2009.12.01 21:15:00 -
[378]
Originally by: WooRu I just checked volume of upgrade to move them ...remove a 0 please
I agree completely - the upgrades need to be at least a tenth the size.
This is *especially* true given that the upgrades cannot be *captured*
If the point of the upgrade hub was to alleviate the "good space" vs "crap space" issue then its going to fail. The limitations imposed by the size of the packaged structure are merely going to refine the definitions of "good" and "crap" based on the extra limitation of deploying upgrade structures.
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PURPLE REIGNS
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Posted - 2009.12.05 00:09:00 -
[379]
I doubt this will be read by ccp at this point but had to find a place to voice my concerns about new sov changes. First thankyou for really good workability upgrades. well done. Thank you ccp for not changing anything about sov or the gameplay. you not only made it harder for a small alliance to go out to 0.0 and claim space. you made it so the large allainces in game can be even more rich and fat. Lot of false promises. I truely feel you intended to make changes but didnt know how to. So instead of just complaining i offer some suggestions. 1) make sov holding prices in an escalating scale. ie for each system you hold it goes up.if its reasonable to hold say 6 systems and gets to be murder to hold more. most big alliances, if have right resources should be able to hold at max 3 constellations. 2) make sure in order to keep upgrades the systems have to be worked. ie ratted and mined. especially to get to cyno jammers level and jump bridges. 3) make the changes fast. all dominion is right now is an update to all the accesories. lets get back to that orginal premise you talked about now that your preset deadline is over. and do it the way it will work. p.s. give us the super carriers with bombers we played with so much on sisi. and let em dock. thank you for your time.
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PURPLE REIGNS
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Posted - 2009.12.05 00:18:00 -
[380]
Also adding to the topic i posted. a change that is needed is to go back to orginal premise. that all systems are created equal.lol get rid of sev status. make it up to the upgrades. based off useage. this will allow crap systems to be made equal. until this is done nothing will change.
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Empire Dweller
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2009.12.05 11:09:00 -
[381]
Originally by: OninoTimmo Corporations and alliances looking to rent upgraded systems in Delve, Querious, and Period Basis should send an evemail to penifSMASH, the official Real Estate Liaison Officer for GoonSwarm.
If you want to enjoy easy DED complexes, broken true-sec (every system is effectively -1.0), and Cosmic Anomalies that are more profitable than high-sec L4 missions, then act fast before all systems are rented out.
Just found this (goonies) post- Seems to contradict half the goon posts here. Could it be? Do they really secretly think the new changes are good?
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SXYGeeK
Gallente do you Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.12.06 19:52:00 -
[382]
"Ore Prospecting Arrays
These are hidden asteroid belts and you get one site guaranteed for every level of upgrade to a maximum of five. These are not the typical hidden belts though. If you've ever been into wormhole space and seen some of the riches there, then you have an idea of what to expect. Within these hidden belts reside mythical beasts such as ęKing Arkonor' and many of his closest friends.
These sites will re-spawn every downtime, so even if you do not mine out every rock, there will be fresh ones waiting for you the next day. "
per the dev blog we where expecting these sites to respawn, however the site we have in our system is still the same, in the same location, with the same rocks as it was yesterday. -We So SeXy |
Empire Dweller
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2009.12.07 18:45:00 -
[383]
Edited by: Empire Dweller on 07/12/2009 18:47:50
Originally by: SXYGeeK "Ore Prospecting Arrays
These are hidden asteroid belts and you get one site guaranteed for every level of upgrade to a maximum of five. These are not the typical hidden belts though. If you've ever been into wormhole space and seen some of the riches there, then you have an idea of what to expect. Within these hidden belts reside mythical beasts such as ęKing Arkonor' and many of his closest friends.
These sites will re-spawn every downtime, so even if you do not mine out every rock, there will be fresh ones waiting for you the next day. "
per the dev blog we where expecting these sites to respawn, however the site we have in our system is still the same, in the same location, with the same rocks as it was yesterday.
hard to say if thats part of the anomaly respawn bug or if they just take a few days (or the roids being mined out) to repawn. I know in hi sec grav sites can last 2 sometimes 3 days before despawning unless you mine them completely out.
edit to add- in hi sec grav sites the npcs spawn randomly, i have no idea how thats supposed to be for these sites. I would assume you couldnt "run out" of npcs and that they would pop up now and then
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SXYGeeK
Gallente do you Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.12.07 20:45:00 -
[384]
Originally by: Empire Dweller
hard to say if thats part of the anomaly respawn bug or if they just take a few days (or the roids being mined out) to repawn.
again, this very dev blog claimed that these upgraded mining sites would respawn "Every Downtime" it isn't happening. -We So SeXy |
Rakessh
Arachnea Phoenix Battalion Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.08 11:55:00 -
[385]
Originally by: XXXAKTIVE Edited by: XXXAKTIVE on 23/11/2009 17:03:16
I like the hub idea, but I would like to talk about numbers. I am one of the pets of the big alliance and I rent a system with my friend. Nowdays I have a cynojam, jump bridge, cynogen and capital assembly array. It means I will have to pay 39 million isk after the update to have same modules. Ok it means 39x30 days=1,170 billion isk per month. Then I have a rent fee, which is about 1 billion isk as well. So it will be 2,17 billion isk total for system a month. Outrageous, dont U think? It also means that I will spend a hell of a lot of time to just to earn money to pay for the system. And also I will have to stick to PVE much more than PVP to get my system up and running. It will make me very unhappy 100%
About these pirate complexes... I think that it would be fair if ONLY MEMBERS OF corp, that owns the hub would be able to locate them. It is unfair if anyone can fly to your system with your TCU and do anomalies there.
There are very interesting upgrades of the hub, but U missed one-the upgrade for ratting. I mean rasing quality of the system.Why not to present the upgrade like that?
I already feel that U already nerfed drops from rats and made ratting harder as well as cut drops in exploration sites.
You got to tell me though... who is U? I've never seen him or know who he is... Or maybe it is a guy like Q in Startrek? Does he also steal faction spawns in belts? Just curious.
CEO Arachnea Phoenix Battalion |
Mohammad alGhazaali
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Posted - 2009.12.10 14:25:00 -
[386]
Has anyone mentioned that the DED complex upgrade doesn't increase the net amount of complexes in the region? It just makes the set number far more likely to spawn in the systems it's installed in.
I pity the poor bastards who only control half a region and see a net loss of plex spawns as a consequence of another corporation upgrading a different part of the same region.
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Empire Dweller
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2009.12.11 21:49:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Mohammad alGhazaali Has anyone mentioned that the DED complex upgrade doesn't increase the net amount of complexes in the region? It just makes the set number far more likely to spawn in the systems it's installed in.
I pity the poor bastards who only control half a region and see a net loss of plex spawns as a consequence of another corporation upgrading a different part of the same region.
and you know this how?
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SXYGeeK
Gallente do you Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.12.16 17:23:00 -
[388]
Per the dev blog here the ore sites are to respawn every downtime. "Ore Prospecting Arrays
These are hidden asteroid belts and you get one site guaranteed for every level of upgrade to a maximum of five. These are not the typical hidden belts though. If you've ever been into wormhole space and seen some of the riches there, then you have an idea of what to expect. Within these hidden belts reside mythical beasts such as ęKing Arkonor' and many of his closest friends.
These sites will re-spawn every downtime, so even if you do not mine out every rock, there will be fresh ones waiting for you the next day. "
However, I got a response on a test server thread that contradicts the dev blog here.
Originally by: CCP Sisyphus
Originally by: SXYGeeK after patch today it looks like our upgraded ore belt still did not respawn last night.
There seems to be some miscommunication here.
The upgraded anomalies and sites are effectively the same as all other anomalies, except that they have very short respawn time, rather than up to 12 or 24 hours.
An anomaly/site will spawn, then persist for 3 days (or until emptied out) when it is marked as expired. Expired site will despawn, wait for its timer, and respawn.
If you have a mining site sitting there untouched (or partially mined) it will remain there for up to 3 days. If you mine it out and complete it, it should respawn in a very short time
Every downtime is a bit different from every 3-4 days. the worthwhile ore from 1 site every 3-4 days does not even sustain level 1 let alone get you to level 2, grinding is the only way to keep it up.
can we get some clarification on what the intention for this is? -We So SeXy |
Erovicious
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.16 19:51:00 -
[389]
Agreed with above poster. We made plans according to your posts with having ore respawns DAILY, not every 3 days.
As it is right now, the site spawns up, high ends are nuked in short order, and as the rest of the TZ's come through the Hidden belt is largely ignored until it respawns some many days later.
Please deliver what you stated. Many of us have made Rental agreements based on your statements that are now leaving the spaceholder with worse space than the Renters with the lack of delivery of promised spawns.
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