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New Dev Blog: Dominion Upkeep and Upgrades: The Expanded Edition

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
Jack bubu Lyonesse. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:50:00 - [121] Really nice adjustments, i can live with them :) though dont make outposts too cheap, would be bad to see everybody spamming them in every system since that would mean 2 additional reinforced modes to shoot through.

CCP Soundwave	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:51:00 - [122] Originally by: teji Edited by: teji on 18/11/2009 17:48:32 Originally by: CCP Soundwave So saying "I cleared out two systems of anomalies yesterday and didn't make a lot of money" might certainly be true, but saying "I ran the top anomalies of a level five system and didn't make a lot of money" isn't. How do we get from which has been shown to be true: (Current top tier anomaly)/time = not worth it To what you propose to be true: (Current top tier anomalynumber of sites run)/(timenumber of sites run) = Worth it? Your math makes no sense. Number of sites does not factor into the equation. Are you telling me the number of good sites you have available does not influence how much money you make spending x number of hours doing them?

EvilweaselFinance Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:53:00 - [123] Originally by: CCP Soundwave Are you telling me the number of good sites you have available does not influence how much money you make spending x number of hours doing them? The time spent clearing a single high-end anomaly makes you less money than other things you could be doing in the same time. If it's not profitable to do once, it's not profitable to farm.
Nairb Ecrep	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:54:00 - [124] Edited by: Nairb Ecrep on 18/11/2009 17:55:09 I for one, just want to thank CCP for these updates. I think they've looked at the feedback and made some changes for the better. I think most of the complaints now are more along the line that you would get, no matter the change. I can envision now 1 system sustaining multiple players, be it mining or NPCing. Making the higher tier outpost upgrade changes was also excellent, and much needed. Thanks again for listening CCP! To the people freaking out: These changes looks pretty good. Instead of freaking out about specific isk/hour ratios or inflation issues, let the changes happen and see where it takes us. If tweeks need to be made, they'll make them. They've listened thus far to feedback, so long as they keep it up, nothing to freak out about. I know at times CCP isn't always excellent about fixing things, but they're doing it "right" now, so cut em a break.
Altaree The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:56:00 - [125] Originally by: CCP Soundwave Are you telling me the number of good sites you have available does not influence how much money you make spending x number of hours doing them? I think a Lot of the anomaly complaints revolve around not ever getting an officer spawn. Another part might be that the loot tables seem to be different between anomalies and belts. You guys have mentioned that the officer part is fixed. Will you please verify the loot tables? I think that would go a LONG way to calming down those who actually read. --Altaree
Misaki Yuuko	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:56:00 - [126] Originally by: CCP Soundwave Are you telling me the number of good sites you have available does not influence how much money you make spending x number of hours doing them? Yes it does, but do the highest CA have a decent income (and this is HIGHER than lvl4 by a sensible margin. at leats 1.5 better). But the question here is, if the best sites give you enough income to overcome this problems: - coverop alts blocking CA respawn. - roaming gangs forcing you to dock up, chang ship, fight (and lose time when you are earning money) - given new CA are deployed and are group content: splitting earning, salvage loot. - replacing the inevitable ship lose time to tiem dues to any reason. All this is hassle and trouble that you don't get in empire, to earn the same, not sure if this enough incentive tbh...
Missy Miner85	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:57:00 - [127] I find the Haven/Sanctum actually quite lucrative anomalies to run. They are definetly not worthless. Bounties are comparable to a Level 4 not to mention the chance for a faction spawn and the fact that you dont need to dock/talk to the agent.
Illectroculus Defined	Posted - 2009.11.18 17:58:00 - [128] Originally by: Misaki Yuuko Yes it does, but do the highest CA have a decent income (and this is HIGHER than lvl4 by a sensible margin. at leats 1.5 better). But the question here is, if the best sites give you enough income to overcome this problems: - coverop alts blocking CA respawn. - roaming gangs forcing you to dock up, chang ship, fight (and lose time when you are earning money) - given new CA are deployed and are group content: splitting earning, salvage loot. - replacing the inevitable ship lose time to tiem dues to any reason. All this is hassle and trouble that you don't get in empire, to earn the same, not sure if this enough incentive tbh... Especially since you can just run lvl4's in empire and still pay for all the strategic upgrades witht he proceeds.
Nairb Ecrep	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:00:00 - [129] Originally by: EvilweaselFinance Originally by: CCP Soundwave Are you telling me the number of good sites you have available does not influence how much money you make spending x number of hours doing them? The time spent clearing a single high-end anomaly makes you less money than other things you could be doing in the same time. If it's not profitable to do once, it's not profitable to farm. You haven't really seen what they have in store yet, so can you really be saying this? Also if you look at the income of a corp/alliance, having many of these sites available will have a dramatic impact on income.
teji Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:00:00 - [130] Edited by: teji on 18/11/2009 18:00:47 Originally by: CCP Soundwave Are you telling me the number of good sites you have available does not influence how much money you make spending x number of hours doing them? I'm telling you that if the site is bad you could spawn an infinite number of them and they still wouldn't be worth running. *where bad is determined by: (total isk and loot gained) / (time spent clearing a single anomaly). Also keeping in mind the intangibles: The risk of losing the system. And the costs: Decay of standings and cost of upkeep.
Dante Edmundo	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:01:00 - [131] I like it. Good response to the original threadnaught CCP - professional and non-defensive despite the incredible amount of vitriol. I'm much more hopeful now that SOV nul-sec changes will be a positive addition. I guess the one suggestion I would make is don't drop the ball on continuing with improvements/refinements with nul-sec SOV. It seems that this has been the case with other Eve expansions/features (Faction Warfare anyone?) At least have one SCRUM team working on SOV-nul-sec at all times!!
Altaree The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:01:00 - [132] Originally by: Missy Miner85 I find the Haven/Sanctum actually quite lucrative anomalies to run. They are definetly not worthless. Bounties are comparable to a Level 4 not to mention the chance for a faction spawn and the fact that you dont need to dock/talk to the agent. I have seen this too. Much better than warping between belts and hoping for a target. Most GOOD alliances have a policy that if someone is in a plex, you must go find another. --Altaree
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:02:00 - [133] Originally by: teji Edited by: teji on 18/11/2009 17:48:32 Originally by: CCP Soundwave So saying "I cleared out two systems of anomalies yesterday and didn't make a lot of money" might certainly be true, but saying "I ran the top anomalies of a level five system and didn't make a lot of money" isn't. How do we get from which has been shown to be true: (Current top tier anomaly)/time = not worth it To what you propose to be true: (Current top tier anomalynumber of sites run)/(timenumber of sites run) = Worth it? Your math makes no sense. Number of sites does not factor into the equation. You don't want to understand it, do you? Or do you want to purposefully do some slandering? He talks about the CURRENT anomalies which are a mixed bag and often not worth it. And then he talks about the NEW anomalies which will be worth much more, respawning instantly in the same system etc. The current anomalies are often not worth it. The new anomalies, especially from an upgraded level 5 system, will be very much worth it. Why is that so difficult to understand?
something somethingdark	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:02:00 - [134] I take it then true sec will only remain relevant for asteroid belts ?
EvilweaselFinance Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:04:00 - [135] Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 18/11/2009 18:04:57 Originally by: Nairb Ecrep You haven't really seen what they have in store yet, so can you really be saying this? Also if you look at the income of a corp/alliance, having many of these sites available will have a dramatic impact on income. If they are introducing new ones, then I will wait to comment until I see them. However, I read Soundwave's comments to mean they are only using existing anomalies or ones equivalent to them, as he considers the current selection adequate. If CCP understands the issues with the current implementation, I believe they could fix it, but I don't think they understand how and why they're broken.
ArmagedonLT Amarr Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:06:00 - [136] Abathur, Soundwave or someone else from ccp (not nozh) can comment on the upcomming supercarrier changes? And how/why did the Nozh ended up by "balancing" them.
Nairb Ecrep	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:11:00 - [137] Originally by: EvilweaselFinance Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 18/11/2009 18:04:57 If they are introducing new ones, then I will wait to comment until I see them. However, I read Soundwave's comments to mean they are only using existing anomalies or ones equivalent to them, as he considers the current selection adequate. If CCP understands the issues with the current implementation, I believe they could fix it, but I don't think they understand how and why they're broken. I'm not too up to speed with anomalies myself tbh. Some people are saying that the best ones (assume what lvl 5 will be) are like 1.5x better than lvl 4 missions, without the docking - talking to agent etc.. How do you think the current ones are broken? They'll be instantly available, which has gotta increase the isk/hour alone
teji Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:12:00 - [138] Edited by: teji on 18/11/2009 18:13:41 Originally by: Gnulpie And then he talks about the NEW anomalies which will be worth much more, respawning instantly in the same system etc. You better re-read the devblog. Quote: The current anomalies are often not worth it. The new anomalies, especially from an upgraded level 5 system, will be very much worth it. Nowhere in the devblog says they will be new anomalies. All it says that they will only spawn top tier anomalies at level 5. I would assume unless told otherwise that those are the current top tier anomalies in game unchanged which have been already deemed to be not worth it by us. Quote: Why is that so difficult to understand? Because you are jumping to conclusions regarding what CCP has not said.
BanzaiJoe	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:14:00 - [139] Originally by: Fuujin Originally by: BanzaiJoe I still don't understand why maintenance is "isk into the ether". I stick isk into a machine in space and it works... weak. My suggestion is to convert the isk plan into resources that already exist in the game. There are a variety of materials already seeded. Convert the isk bill to 90% of cost of seeded for risk / time-energy to buy in empire and move to 0.0 A couple things come of this Pros ++ The absurdity of putting isk into a virtual account to keep an object in space kept up is gone. ++ Those that live deep in 0.0 with a region or two between them and low-sec will have some weakness whereas now they can sit deep and earn fat loot (Dominion style). + Seeded objects can have a market based on distance + Can be varied in accordance with structure e.g. valuable structure requires item that does not cost much but has large volume requiring corp to work together to get item and earn value of space +/- Corps supply lines will need to carry new items - Corp supply lines already exist - It's close to Dominion release - Requires testing/ feedback - ??? Protip: if your game requires you to work it like a job just so your internet spaceship alliance can hold virtual land, its a bad system. One of the big reasons they shifted TO a pure ISK model is to cut out the soul-crushing logistics requirements. A supply chain is still required to fuel jump bridge/jammer/mining/etc towers, but thankfully the need to fuel several hundred towers to hold a region or two of space is gone. Try it before you eagerly run back to it like an abused spouse. I'm not suggesting that we go anywhere near back to fueling hundreds of towers. CCP moved away from POS warfare and POS as Sov holders because yes, it was soul crushing. You may like the solution because you have shaved off several hundred towers (or more considering Delve+ is pretty big). I like the idea of less as well, but there's a happy medium between 200+ and zero. 5 objects per system at 39M isk / day for the rewards that are offered is chump change. Considering the upgrades that are offered, that could be done by 1 person in one day for a system that could support a small corp. There's a happy medium, I suggested one. You have a better one?

CCP Soundwave	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:16:00 - [140] Edited by: CCP Soundwave on 18/11/2009 18:21:01 Originally by: xttz Edited by: xttz on 18/11/2009 15:55:07 Ok here goes 1. When a system is under attack and a hub is destroyed, progress is preserved by the defender not being able to anchor a new hub until SBUs are destroyed. How is progress preserved for outpost, and what stops the defender retaking and repairing it to gain extra reinforced timers? 2. Will there be any mechanic to build hubs and upgrades from smaller materials, or are players actually expected to haul scores of freighters in under a week just to keep their existing space? 3. Will the sov-based restrictions on starbases be lifted, such as the anchoring limit of 1/5 per day. 3a.Will starbases recieve any form of buff now they are now longer the focus of sov and will be used far less often? Capital ship proliferation since starbases were introduced makes them relatively weak in small numbers, and the starbase defense role is now marginalised. The current stront-based reinforce timer leaves industrial towers such as capital ship arrays hilariously vulnerable to impromptu kiting and constant job interruption. 4. Do you realise how much the recent mothership changes break sov mechanics? sits a dozen motherships on an outpost repairs it docks after taking 50m damage repairs for free, resumes repping 1. When an outpost is taken, it goes back to full hitpoints, giving the attacker a buffer to take out the TCUs and plant their own. This is made with the assumption that the attacker wil only attempt to take a station in a system where they control the field. If you experience ping-pong, your invasion has not gone according to plan 2. I can't remember the complete transition mechanics, but your sov won't depend on the IH, but the TCU. So while hauling them might take time, it won't sweep sov away from under you. It's obviously a nice defensive buffer, but yea, sov will remain. 3. We have not been able to re-do POSs as of right now, but hopefully we will be able to accomodate them better to their new role in the future. Their vulnerability, especially in terms of building supercaps, is intended. 4. Motherships and caps in general are not my area and I'd prefer to not comment on it.

Nairb Ecrep	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:18:00 - [141] One benefit I imagine to not having as many poses with corresponding fuel bays/guns and what not, is less load on the server tracking all that. Could improve things quite a bit, so I'm happy with the virtual wallet poof bit if we have less lag.
Manfred Rickenbocker	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:20:00 - [142] Edited by: Manfred Rickenbocker on 18/11/2009 18:23:24 A small request: Since you changed the Pirate Detection array to spawn four instead of two anomalies per level, that will mean there are 20 anomalies at level 5. Presumably, if you have about 18 other people running anomalies simultaneously, there's an extremely good chance you will bump into someone who has already triggered the anomaly instead of a fresh one once your current one expires. Is there a way to add an asterix to an anomaly you find on the scanner to show that it has been triggered? Ex. Gurista's Hub -> *Gurista's Hub Side bonus: you can sort by name and have the un-spawned anomalies sorted from the spawned ones and keep your ratting uninterrupted. Double bonus: if applied to signatures as well, it will stop you from wasting time jumping on top of people there too or wasting time with those pesky non-despawning profession sites. One Downside: if accidentally applied to wormholes, it can give away pirate campers in empire. Another Downside: Some jerk finding all the anomalies, triggering them, then running away just to annoy people. (acceptable risk imho) ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times.
Miss Lear The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:23:00 - [143] Currently CCP seems to not want alliances to have large amounts of upgraded system, thus the dominion patch and the required cost of having these upgrades The increase in guaranteed sites seems like a +, but in a NRDS area if the alliance chooses to upgrade a system, there is no guarantee that the alliances making the upgrades will get to run these sites making the upgrades not worth it as they wont be able to make the money from the upgrade. Might i make a suggestion. What if the alliances that is holding the hub gets a few dedicated sites? level 1 might not get a dedicated site, but once you get to level 5 maybe the ratio of scan-able sites vs dedicated sites are 15/5 still maintaining the 20 make sites at level 5 The 15 free sites like you said would be scanned but the 5 dedicated ones would only be found if you flew to hub and used it as a scanner and it gave you the location of the site. Make the dedicated 5 sites worth a bit more isk/hour (higher teir) then the other 15 sites to help the holding alliance pay and maintain and have this upgrade be worth it. A feature like this would help NRDS alliance be bale to run sites to pay for the upgrade and for NBSI alliances they will be running all the sites already so it does not matter if they have to use a ship scanner or the hub scanner
Agent Known	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:24:00 - [144] I really wish the TCUs were buildable so I could make a killing off of Dominion...but all well... The numbers certainly seem much more reasonable now. I think the answers to the various questions will lie into what actually happens on Dominion's release; the universe of EVE is very unpredictable, and setting in stone what will happen is just not in the style of EVE. On another note, I also have an annoying sig. inaftertimeflux
Darirol	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:24:00 - [145] Quote: Ore Prospecting Arrays These are hidden asteroid belts and you get one site guaranteed for every level of upgrade to a maximum of five. These sites will re-spawn every downtime, so even if you do not mine out every rock, there will be fresh ones waiting for you the next day. does that mean these belts only respawn on downtime? or does these belts also respawn if they are completly empty?
Bagdon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:26:00 - [146] Originally by: Gnulpie And then he talks about the NEW anomalies which will be worth much more, respawning instantly in the same system etc. Please show me the reference to the "NEW anomalies". Those have never been mentioned. People just assume that there will be new anomalies because otherwise the things CCP say are not consistent with reality. But there never was any confirmation that there will be new anomalies.
Pringlescan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:26:00 - [147] What happens if while someone is shooting a station, a spy offlines all of the sbus in the system? When the station goes invulnerable can you still rep it? Does it automatically make the station repair everything?
Gehnster Gallente RED SUN RISING	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:29:00 - [148] How long does it take to get to standing needed to do level 4 missions? How much time would it take to start doing some of the things this blog talked about and start making a lot of money without having to work in standing? I personally have not done many missions because frankly I find it boring and I don't FEEL like grinding standings to get a lot of money. If I can do something else right NOW and still get a lot of money (maybe not as much but still a lot), I'm gonna do it. Plus, I don't lose standings with other factions. Also, some people seem to think that if they stop mining/ratting for a few days the index will decay significantly where as faction standing wouldn't and is another reason to do level 4 missions. So, are you saying you are the only person who is doing any of this index stuff? I would think there would be others around to keep your index up while gone.
LustTrader	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:41:00 - [149] Originally by: Lost0ne Originally by: CCP Soundwave Yep, we've definitely looked at all of this. I'm not a big fan of the drone region model where the reward is loot based, because it will usually end up being a competing feature. Today for example, mining is not as profitable as it could be, in parts because of the drone regions, which further weakens players ability to support themselves in 0.0. If this is true are you dong anything to fix the Drone regions then? It seems to me the best way to fix the drone regions is to leave the belt rats alone but seed 'other' faction anomalies instead of just drone anomalies. Right now Drone regions have no DED complex's, no officer spawn, no faction loot. Seems a simple and elegant fix for a major regional problem. +1
Nairb Ecrep	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:45:00 - [150] Edited by: Nairb Ecrep on 18/11/2009 18:45:52 Originally by: Miss Lear Currently CCP seems to not want alliances to have large amounts of upgraded system, thus the dominion patch and the required cost of having these upgrades The increase in guaranteed sites seems like a +, but in a NRDS area if the alliance chooses to upgrade a system, there is no guarantee that the alliances making the upgrades will get to run these sites making the upgrades not worth it as they wont be able to make the money from the upgrade. Might i make a suggestion. What if the alliances that is holding the hub gets a few dedicated sites? level 1 might not get a dedicated site, but once you get to level 5 maybe the ratio of scan-able sites vs dedicated sites are 15/5 still maintaining the 20 make sites at level 5 The 15 free sites like you said would be scanned but the 5 dedicated ones would only be found if you flew to hub and used it as a scanner and it gave you the location of the site. Make the dedicated 5 sites worth a bit more isk/hour (higher teir) then the other 15 sites to help the holding alliance pay and maintain and have this upgrade be worth it. A feature like this would help NRDS alliance be bale to run sites to pay for the upgrade and for NBSI alliances they will be running all the sites already so it does not matter if they have to use a ship scanner or the hub scanner Another idea, which might be difficult to code (dunno), would be the ability to tax someone using one of your upgrades, separate from the corp tax scheme. It could work through the GUI for the IH, and could be set based on standings (IE don't tax blues, but tax neuts). Before the isk is sent to the char for bounties, the corp tax and this system tax could be applied. Could also maybe be applied with renters etc... Just food for thought...

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