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Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.12 20:10:00 - [301] Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 12/02/2010 20:10:32 any bonus for over 300 replys ? and 11 pages
Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.12 20:19:00 - [302] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester any bonus for over 300 replys ? and 11 pages Sure. Send me any amount od ISK in excess of 10 mil and especially for you I'll send triple amount backi instead of usual double.
MasterEnt	Posted - 2010.02.12 20:37:00 - [303] Edited by: MasterEnt on 12/02/2010 20:38:53 Funny - my 2 month old toon has no broblem playing with my 5 year old tune. The problem is not EVE - its your brain and our inability to adapt or see the opportunities you spoonfed brat. I love it when newbs come here saying that "if ou dont change it to what I want, it will make the game bad, and people are leaving the fame beacuse of that now becuase I have all the statistics andiknowwhattheFiamtalkingaboutsomakeitmyway."
Deviese Opella	Posted - 2010.02.13 01:04:00 - [304] One month old toon here, actually my third account. I have been playing eve for a total of... right under 2 months. I started out with two miners, and had full intentions on this one going the same route.. then decided against it. I did intend to just buy a character, but this thread swayed me against it and instead will learn the ropes the hard way. I have one pilot already taking me under his wing, so my ~2mil SP is not a hinderance as I dont fly alone anymore. I too play WoW and one of the reasons I love Eve is for the fact that I don't need to play to improve my characters. I can go in WoW on my ICC raids tonight and not worry one about getting behind. I dont have to spend days playing a game to get ahead in it. I may have a lot to learn, but I do know aleady that SP means little. My two month old miners are a few weeks away from mining as good as most other high SP miners, and this toon is about 45 days from a decked out Drake.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.13 03:29:00 - [305] Originally by: MasterEnt Edited by: MasterEnt on 12/02/2010 20:38:53 Funny - my 2 month old toon has no broblem playing with my 5 year old tune. The problem is not EVE - its your brain and our inability to adapt or see the opportunities you spoonfed brat. I love it when newbs come here saying that "if ou dont change it to what I want, it will make the game bad, and people are leaving the fame beacuse of that now becuase I have all the statistics andiknowwhattheFiamtalkingaboutsomakeitmyway." So you got carried by 5 year players and where more of a hinderance than help
Slade Hoo Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2010.02.13 03:55:00 - [306] I'm bored of that noob and the thread itself. ------ I'm just a lonely pirate on my way to ascension
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.13 10:11:00 - [307] So what one of you stole my snowman?
Virgil Travis Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.13 11:21:00 - [308] A wizard did it
Danks Caldari Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds	Posted - 2010.02.13 14:51:00 - [309] It's amazing how one person's failure at Eve can spawn 11 pages. Or does this mean Chester actually wins?
Elena Laskova	Posted - 2010.02.13 16:24:00 - [310] OP: You're right that it's a problem that rookies have a hard time "catching up". But introducing an XP-like mechanism isn't the right answer for EvE - too much of the game has been built assuming the current SP system. High-SP players - as usual you don't disappoint, and as usual there's a small amount of meaning content almost buried among the iraational arguments and rudeness. We know OP is partly right for two reasons: 1. CCP are removing more and more of the L5 pre-reqs for mid-level skills and equipment. 2. High-SP characters are easy to value, since there's an active market. We can see what they a worth in gaming time (via a simple assuption about earing rates from grinding ISK) and in RL money, since there is also a indirect ISk to RL dollar market. The conclusion is obvious: Noit surprisingly, EvE players strongly believe low-SP chatracters are less capable than high-SP characters. Which means every rookie needs to be persuaded that this isn't going to make their playing time less fun. If they're not persuaded, they should leave the game. I'm not convinced irrelevant and stupid counter-arguments, rudeness, and inane comparisons with WoW are the right path, but it seems I'm in the minority /lol. So, both sides are mostly wrong, but a little bit correct. What's to be done to makes sure rookies aren't left behind? Fortunately CCP has already decided, as we can see from their lately removing some of the L5-skill pre-reqs to basic skills and equipment. This makes very good sense because the 5th level of a skill requires most of the SP, but delivers the same boost as the other 4 levels. In many cases, L5 is a "blackmail" level - only worth doing if it's an essential pre-req to something else. OP - removing an L5 pre-req can cut by 30-50% the SP required to get to perhaps 90 or 95% maximum capability. It's a really huge boost for rookies aiming to become competitive i a specific context (such as combat). It's consistent with the game design. It's reasonably fair for everybody (and it's worth noting that the high-SP players who were relatively disadvantaged hardly complained at all on the forums). And remember - at a certain point, skills in any given area are maxxed out. Having 100+ million SP doesn't make your 30 million SP in combat skills more effective than a 35 million SP combat specialists 30 million in combat skills. Very high SP certainly means greater flexibiity, but not greater efficiency than a specialist in any specific context. I think the issue is real, but is high on CCP's list of development priorities already. IMO this discussion would be better used to discuss the specific learning paths that might reasonably be adjusted in the next major update.

Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.13 16:42:00 - [311] Just a few observations... Originally by: Elena Laskova We know OP is partly right for two reasons: 1. CCP are removing more and more of the L5 pre-reqs for mid-level skills and equipment. The only relaxing of prerequisites was for equipment that either shifted focus from an obscure purpose optional later on to a newcomer-accessible ISK-making alternative (archeology or hacking in exploration content) or was deemed a necessary mechanic to be used by a wider variety of pilots (thermodynamics)... and earlier on (a lot earlier on) the prerequisite relaxation for advanced learning skills (which were, to some degree, a minor thorn in CCP's side as far as potential fast growth of newcomers), with the recently added "double speed" early SP gain. NONE of those things were made so that "new players can get more SP than older players", all of that was put into place so that certain areas of the game become available earlier. Guess who actually took most advantage from all those changes ? Yup, correct, older experienced players creating fresh alts, that's who. Quote: 2. High-SP characters are easy to value, since there's an active market. We can see what they a worth in gaming time (via a simple assuption about earing rates from grinding ISK) and in RL money, since there is also a indirect ISk to RL dollar market. So... when I see a 40 mil SP pilot (most likely over 2 years of character life) going for 5 bil starting bid with 8 bil buyout, what exactly DOES that say ? That character took probably up to 30 months to train, one PLEX costs let's say 280 mil ISK (it was actually more expensive in the past), so that's over 8 bil ISK just in EQUIVALENT SUBSCRIPTION COST. Quote: The conclusion is obvious: Noit surprisingly, EvE players strongly believe low-SP chatracters are less capable than high-SP characters. When somebody sells something below the price it takes to make, after also taking a very long time to make, that doesn't exactly scream "this is valuable to me", quite the opposite, it screams "I want to recover at least part of my investment". ___ ...but on the rest of your post - yeah, you're generally right. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Elena Laskova	Posted - 2010.02.13 17:09:00 - [312] Akira I can't say I've looked closely at the character trading market, but I'd expect the sale price of a character to discount for the utility of having an extra character available whle it was trained. If I was preparing a character for sale, I'd use the character in a necessary role (such as scouting and/or mining alt) "to pay the bills", so a significant part of the cost would have been recovered before the sale.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.13 17:51:00 - [313] A other alternitive would be allow a 2nd toon to train on the same account as your main. And noone can convince me this is not a need look at the % of multiable account users.
Wesfahrn WESCORP 2.0	Posted - 2010.02.13 17:58:00 - [314] Edited by: Wesfahrn on 13/02/2010 18:02:51 Whats that good old saying? Adapt or die? :)
Alhambra Trellane Harbingers of Chaos Inc. Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.02.13 19:15:00 - [315] is bad thread imo
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.13 19:24:00 - [316] Originally by: Elena Laskova I can't say I've looked closely at the character trading market, but I'd expect the sale price of a character to discount for the utility of having an extra character available whle it was trained. If I was preparing a character for sale, I'd use the character in a necessary role (such as scouting and/or mining alt) "to pay the bills", so a significant part of the cost would have been recovered before the sale. ...because you're going to keep training a "scout alt" for 2 years, right ? If people would place any serious significance on having a high-SP total, given the fact the EVE population keeps growing, the average price a high-SP character goes for should be noticeably above the cost of getting the character to that point. You know, cost expressed in equivalent ISK cost of PLEX/GTC which would have been needed over the character's lifetime plus ISK cost of trained skills plus ISK cost of implants, on top of optional additional ISK for various things like high standings, jumpclones, reputation or whatnot, PLUS THE EQUIVALENT ISK COST OF THE TRANSFER FEE. Since the average sales price of characters is usually noticeably BELOW even just the equivalent ISK of the subscription time, one can only conclude that generally, people DO NOT consider JUST HAVING a high SP count all that important. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp	Posted - 2010.02.13 20:13:00 - [317] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester No my level 5 skills are not worthless how ever say we are both flying frigates tech two tech two fits and its a stale mate and you dock up. Now you come out and undock in a domi tech tech 2 drones now my frigate is not gonna win. Now lets say i do the same it becomes a stale mate you dock up undock in an other ship suited to take out the domi with drones ect ect in the end the more versatile play will have the upper hand is all i'm saying. lol. i dont think you understand how this game works at all. ----------------------------------------------- Free Trade Corp - Flash page
Trader20	Posted - 2010.02.13 23:01:00 - [318] All u old players just got trolled, look who's the noobies now
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.13 23:29:00 - [319] Originally by: Trader20 All u old players just got trolled, look who's the noobies now When you can explain the radical difference between responding seriously as if it was not a troll to somebody you are almost certainly is a troll because it gives all other new players stupid ideas, and actually falling for a troll, THEN you can laugh. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Elena Laskova	Posted - 2010.02.14 00:03:00 - [320] Akita I've been assuming that it's not new players that buy a multi-billion-ISK characters. There will be a few IRL rich eople who do so I suppose, but I think most people will walk away from a game that has an up-front cost in the hundreds of USD. The laws of economics tell us that in a free market (such as the character and PLEX markets in EvE), on average supply and demand will accurately reflect the human element, and will balance out at the "correct" price. The puzzle isn't to decide if the price is correct - we know that. It's to explain why. The only thing I can think of which could seriously "mess up" the internal character-for-ISK market is if there are a significant number of experienced players leaving the game and selling their characters directly for RL cash.

Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.14 01:05:00 - [321] Originally by: Trader20 All u old players just got trolled, look who's the noobies now When you can actually type english instead of text speak, then we might consider you as more than a 12 year old. Does mummy know you're using her account?
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Fyretracker Heavy Industries	Posted - 2010.02.14 01:31:00 - [322] if you played WoW for a long time you should hardly say EVE has a bad gap, low SP players in EVE call em equal to say a level 40 in WoW. put 10 of them against an 80(the high SP player with Tech II and faction gadgets and ISK up to their highest cargo hold). but guess what, in EVE those 10 players if they do their research and build the right fleet can make that high SP player loose a load more ISK then all of them combined just risked. EVE contains some of the greatest equalizers for lower SP players, things like E-War ships as a fine example.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 01:45:00 - [323] Originally by: Elena Laskova Akita I've been assuming that it's not new players that buy a multi-billion-ISK characters. There will be a few IRL rich eople who do so I suppose, but I think most people will walk away from a game that has an up-front cost in the hundreds of USD. The problem is not with brand new people buying old characters for RL cash (as you've pointed out, that seldom happens), it's with newbies that might end up believing that THAT would be what they would have to do in order "to have a chance" at... whatever they think they have no chance at with low SP. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.14 01:52:00 - [324] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Elena Laskova Akita I've been assuming that it's not new players that buy a multi-billion-ISK characters. There will be a few IRL rich eople who do so I suppose, but I think most people will walk away from a game that has an up-front cost in the hundreds of USD. The problem is not with brand new people buying old characters for RL cash (as you've pointed out, that seldom happens), it's with newbies that might end up believing that THAT would be what they would have to do in order "to have a chance" at... whatever they think they have no chance at with low SP. Which is why I dislike people stating that as a solution, especially when there is no problem in the first place. Anyway the Op is a troll, he has not replied to one point raised and what he says gets more nuts every page. I've only posted here because new players may actually believe the stuff he is saying. But as they say, there is one born every day and people believe the dumbest things despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Clementina Eye of God	Posted - 2010.02.14 02:53:00 - [325] The Original Poster is a blooming idiot. The explaination as to why is within the previous posts. I'm going to talk about prices for characters, which is a far more interesting topic. I was under the impression that when people purchased a character that they purchased 'alts' instead of 'mains', and that furthermore alts tend to be specalized characters whereas mains tend to be generalized characters. From there because characters are purchased for their specalization, that purchasers of characters pay for the skillpoints that are actually aligned to the specalization. For example a character with 40 million skillpoints and 35 million in science (or mining or any other disipline) is worth more than a character with 40 million skillpoints and 20 million in science. If rational people are buying alts, a character should be bought by the person who's purpose for it would use the most skillpoints, since they will also be willing to bid the most. Meaning also that a character with a high skillpoint total and a wide range of skills is worth as much as a character with a lower skillpoint total and a more focused range of skills. An alt with 40 million skillpoints and 20 mil in science, 10 mil in PvP, and 10 mil mining is worth as much as a character with 20 million in science. Also I imagine that high-skillpoint non-battleship or capital PvP alts trade at a discount of some sort. There probably is no such discount for high-skillpoint characters for non-PvP roles. Other, non-skillpoint things like infamous reputation and physical attrativeness probably effect price also. But I am speculating and don't have data to back any of that up. I also don't buy characters or sell them as a general rule.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 03:52:00 - [326] OK if I am wrong about this why is there even a character bazar where characters do sell for billions of isk if they have high sp. If a low sp toon is every bit as good as a high sp toon as long as you got the skill to play the game why bother buying a high sp character?
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2010.02.14 04:11:00 - [327] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester OK if I am wrong about this why is there even a character bazar where characters do sell for billions of isk if they have high sp. If a low sp toon is every bit as good as a high sp toon as long as you got the skill to play the game why bother buying a high sp character? You're trying too hard. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 04:55:00 - [328] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester OK if I am wrong about this why is there even a character bazar where characters do sell for billions of isk if they have high sp. If a low sp toon is every bit as good as a high sp toon as long as you got the skill to play the game why bother buying a high sp character? You're trying too hard. No this is a valid point if a low sp character is every bit as good as a higher sp character with the proper player skill and i can find at least 15 times in this thread alone where that was stated. Why bother buying characters with high sp ??? Don't try and avoid the question
Wakboth	Posted - 2010.02.14 04:55:00 - [329] I think that the Eve xp training is quite balanced. So the OP said that a new player can't be efficient toward a veteran. I remember when i started Eve in 2004. We had only 50K SP randomly spent in quite random skills. Now you get 800K and a bonus until 1.6M. We hadn't implants, +1 were expensive, and +3 were only wear by a few rich pilots. And nobody wanted to risk this when you couldn't even warp to 0 (try to travel through low sec using only warp to 15km, and tell me how much ships you lost ) We hadn't "advanced" learning skills. The biggest ship i saw was a Scorpion, but it was far more expensive, since missions lvl 4 didn't exist, and lvl 3 were used to be completed in gang. I think i had to wait about 3 years to get into a BS. Nowadays, you can get in an efficient BS in 6 month (and i don't mean people who get into a Raven with only 2 months, because this is often unefficient). So, ok, let's change the XP system, but i want it from the beginning, because i don't know why i should have flied for 3 years in an Osprey (later i could fly with a Ferox when they appear, Drake was much later) when a newbie don't need to fly it for 3 months now. Again, and to agree with Akita, SP aren't the main purpose in this game, and to prove it, i can fight with my characters : my main started in April 2004, so it's almost 6 yo, my pvp alt character started in 2008, and i can tell you that if they are fighting together, the character from 2008 will win EVERY fights. You are talking about pvp, in 1 month you can be efficient in a T1 frig, in few monthes, you can fly decently intys and/or AF (flying them with perfect skills is much longer though), but my main character just lost its CNR because i made a stupid mistake, i had about 3 or 4 times SP than my aggressor.... My opinion is that if he thought like you are doing, he won't have engaged me....and he wouldn't have a nice KM now. You think veterans aren't hardcore gaming like you? I didn't count hours on my computer flying in Eve, but i think it's far much than you (i can spent the whole night, and see the sun and think "damned, it's going to be hard today" ^^). I don't have so much SP than someone who only log for skills, but i could pay my implants, i could pay my skills and boats. The longer you play, more xp you get? Nice idea ! I often log only for chat and waiting in station. Damn, you already answered it, well instead of waiting in station, i would be in a POS bubble, cloaked in a dead end system or waiting in a safe spot in Jita. The only thing i agree with the OP is about character trading, i found that not very "roleplaying". About the system : Quote: Now my subject line is new vs. old players the reason I said this is one of two things are going to happen one they keep the current system in place and will in turn lose a lot of the new hard core players (some will stay) or two they revamp it in some way to allow players like my self to at least catch up a little to vet players in SP so I can use the better ships and tech 2 equips and in turn will have a few of the vet players rage quit the game and again some will stay. Do you know that Eve is the MMORPG with the longer lifespan per player? Do you know that Eve is increasing its population since about 7 years? In Wow, you get more and more people, but early players are all gone, people play for 2 or 3 years then leave and more new players are coming. In Eve, players are staying, even when they left, they come back later. It works since 7 years, and you think you can see the future : it will change now because you said it? I think this system won't change, and i will adapt. If it becomes another grinding game (you told about Wow, i remember Burning Crusade launch, 1st player lvl 70 in less than 24h, i don't want to see that here. If you want to evolve,then play and learn, you don't need more SP. Get a T2 ship, i will show you T1 can kill you.
Wakboth	Posted - 2010.02.14 05:02:00 - [330] Quote: No this is a valid point if a low sp character is every bit as good as a higher sp character with the proper player skill and i can find at least 15 times in this thread alone where that was stated. Why bother buying characters with high sp ??? Don't try and avoid the question That's a valid question : why? There is no reason in my mind. That's why i played for 1 year with a noob character when i had my 5 yo. And i don't mean playing one and just changing skills for alt, my pvp alt did the cosmos missions and raised its standings alone. I could have bought a 20M alt with my main's money, but the character wouldn't have been "mine". And i won't sell both, if i stop this game one day, my characters will die at this moment.



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