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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Zartanic
Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.02.12 06:51:00 -
[271]
Edited by: Zartanic on 12/02/2010 06:58:33
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Giving a 10-15% increase to active players in sp gains still doesnt make it a grind game. If sp dont matter and its only skil that matters why do people bother training up for the larger ships why dont you all just fly around in tech 1 frigates with all tech 1 fits and **** all over ships.
I like what the larger ships have to offer and im held away from them due to a carebear ass system for skiling up and oh poor me i dont got that kind of time to play. Your doing teh same **** your accusing me of doing. You dont like my ideas i dont like yours so i have ever bit of a right to state that.
OK so I log in, go to work, come back and I've got more skill points. How dumb.
Most if not all games have levelling , gear and grinding to keep players back and keep them playing as the actual content is so easy a brain dead monkey can do it.
EVE just requires your brains from day one. It's complex and experience gives a big advantage. THATS the bit which is the 'levelling'. That is the bit that rewards time played, not SP's.
What you suggest is totally pointless and rewards no one except those that have a computer they can keep on all day. If you want it activity based, good luck working out how that would be calculated. And maybe you can moan about the massive lag it will cause too.
You have not properly thought through one bit of your suggestion. You are also assuming SP's is progression. Many posters have explained why this is not true yet you ignore it.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.02.12 07:04:00 -
[272]
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester a 5 year player who logs on 5 hours a week should not be bale to stay ahead in SP vs a player who loges 40+ hours.
The guy who logs in and plays 40 hours a week - assuming he actually plays, rather than just mindlessly grinds NPCs - will soon be ahead of the 5 year old player in every way that counts. He'll soon get more kills, make more ISK, have more friends, be better regarded in corp and will in every way that counts, be more successful in EVE.
He just wont have more skillpoints. So what?
Please try and understand this basic concept:
Skillpoints are a means to an end, not an end in themselves.
This is what we are trying to tell you. The aim of the game is not to accumulate SP, and the first to get the most wins. We fully realise that the other MMOs you've played are like this, but you are failing to realise that EVE isn't like this. Intelligence, luck, social skills, ISK and friends are no more or less important than skillpoints, and can often be easily subsituted for them.
Unconsciously, you're making an equation like this:
1M SP = level 1 60M SP = level 60
level 60 > level 1 therefore the new guy will always lose
Now it's been explained repeatedly and eloquently why this is wrong, so I'm not going to do it again, but the fact is, it is wrong.
You've devoted a lot of energy to complaining that you "can't compete" with the 'level 60s'. Other new players put similar energy in to asking how to compete - and they usually do very well.
Just a thought...
PS If your PVP drake skillplan will take you 451 days to complete, you're doing it wrong.
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Nefrin Maldoes
Minmatar Outer Rim Survey and Salvage
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Posted - 2010.02.12 07:06:00 -
[273]
Ok, so most of us don't like your idea, you don't like ours. Good. Fine.
Instead of whining about the fairness of it in the General Discussion forums, why don't you post a constructive criticism and solution to this "problem" in the Feature and Ideas forum, where it belongs.
For the love of all that is good and sane, Mods please lock this thread. ---------- while(horse==dead) { beat(); } |
Mira O'karr
Minmatar Yin Bao
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Posted - 2010.02.12 07:23:00 -
[274]
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester love how people call this a hard core player game when it isn't geared towards hard core players. It even states it on the back of the retail box..
eve is a hardcore game in so many ways, just not when it comes to power leveling to level cap.
but you are just a troll, arent you?
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Chesterr theMolester
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Posted - 2010.02.12 07:37:00 -
[275]
mildley complex and hard core are not the same .. This game offers very little for the true hard core gamer Has plenty for the slightly more then casual gamer how ever
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Albion Stormchaser
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Posted - 2010.02.12 07:42:00 -
[276]
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester So i went and loaded up my eve mon and mind you i am already in tech 2 shields and in a drake with some missile skills up to 3 so far usings hams. And from this point to max out my shields and HAMS being able to use tech two drones maxed out nav skills relevent to pvp proper rigging ect with a head full of +3's already and its still 451 days off So who ever said a 1 year toon ve a 6 year toon is = your wrong go open evemon your self and test it out .
This Sir is why you fail,
Why are you intent on MAXING the skills, the difference between Level 4 and Level 5 is minimal, especially on shields.
My 52mil main has 273 skills, 63 are at level 5, 7 in science mainly for Data cores but also astrometrics, 11 space ship, 20 gunnery, 5 drone, the rest are core support skills like Electonics, Engineering, Mechanic, yet my Shield and armour compensations are still at 4, which is more than adequate.
you are a power gamer, who thinks all Level 5's = the win botton.
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Chesterr theMolester
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Posted - 2010.02.12 08:03:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Albion Stormchaser
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester So i went and loaded up my eve mon and mind you i am already in tech 2 shields and in a drake with some missile skills up to 3 so far usings hams. And from this point to max out my shields and HAMS being able to use tech two drones maxed out nav skills relevent to pvp proper rigging ect with a head full of +3's already and its still 451 days off So who ever said a 1 year toon ve a 6 year toon is = your wrong go open evemon your self and test it out .
The only reason i did it was an other person who posted to me said a 1 yr toon and a 6 year toon will be the same in a fight Now i under stand that from skill 4 to 5 in minimal differance in one skill how ever if this other player had say 15 skills at 5 to my lvl 4s he had a pretty big advantage.
This Sir is why you fail,
Why are you intent on MAXING the skills, the difference between Level 4 and Level 5 is minimal, especially on shields.
My 52mil main has 273 skills, 63 are at level 5, 7 in science mainly for Data cores but also astrometrics, 11 space ship, 20 gunnery, 5 drone, the rest are core support skills like Electonics, Engineering, Mechanic, yet my Shield and armour compensations are still at 4, which is more than adequate.
you are a power gamer, who thinks all Level 5's = the win botton.
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Tesma Valdir
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.02.12 08:06:00 -
[278]
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester mildley complex and hard core are not the same .. This game offers very little for the true hard core gamer Has plenty for the slightly more then casual gamer how ever
And yet too hard core for you to understand and/or believe that simple fact:
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 11/02/2010 10:23:57This is the problem with your entire attitude: you think SP matters. It does not. Skill matters, and you won't accumulate that by sitting around and waiting for some silly numbers to tick up.
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Tarhim
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.02.12 09:55:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester
This game offers very little for the true hard core gamer
No, its just that "hardcore EvE gamer" is different breed than "hardcore Lineage 2 gamer" and you don't seem to get it. Also, in Eve pretty much always group effort > solo effort.
Sitting in-game 20 hours per day does not make you hardcore.
What you also don't seem to get is that current Eve players like skill system very much and so it is not going to change.
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Nooma K'Larr
Minmatar Cat's Cradle
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Posted - 2010.02.12 09:59:00 -
[280]
I have tiny nipples. ___________________________________________________ CSM - Bring back Medium Shader! |
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Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
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Posted - 2010.02.12 10:54:00 -
[281]
Edited by: Ben Derindar on 12/02/2010 10:55:34
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester And from this point to max out my shields and HAMS being able to use tech two drones maxed out nav skills relevent to pvp proper rigging ect with a head full of +3's already and its still 451 days off So who ever said a 1 year toon ve a 6 year toon is = your wrong go open evemon your self and test it out .
You still don't get it.
Nobody is ever using their full amount of SP at once no matter what they're doing. If you're flying a drake, most SP that have gone into flying other ships becomes meaningless. For example, I currently have 94 million SP. I have trained in a wide variety of ships, but as soon as I hop into, say a drake, all my millions of SP that have gone into Amarr or Gallente ships/weaponry are meaningless. Suddenly that 94 million doesn't sound so impressive; anyone with just a couple mil SP into drakes and missile skills will compete with me easily.
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester a 5 year player who logs on 5 hours a week should not be bale to stay ahead in SP vs a player who loges 40+ hours.
You're still obsessing over SP being the be-all and end-all of success in Eve. This, as has been reiterated countless times to you already, is NOT TRUE. Players who spend more time in-game are rewarded in other ways such as more isk, more kills, more ore mined, more ships manufactured, more of whatever they're doing.
Stop trying to compare Eve to all the linear grind games you've played in the past. None of that experience applies here. Eve is different. You do not become an expert in Eve by playing other games.
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Giving a 10-15% increase to active players in sp gains still doesnt make it a grind game.
Of course it does. Give anyone a bonus for doing one thing over something else and people will be inclined to do that one thing. This is proven by looking at the bonus info for ships. Why do you feel inclined to fit missiles to your drake? Because it has bonuses for doing so. Thus, anyone with half a brain will always fit missiles to a drake.
Giving SP gains for any activity in Eve will have the same result, people would gravitate more and more towards that one activity over anything else that doesn't. Given that it's not realistically possible to max your SP across all skills for the game since more are being added all the time, that's an awful lot of GRIND you've just introduced into the game there, son.
And oh, look at this:
Originally by: Mashie Saldana Back in beta you could gain SP from activity, CCP removed it.
Why do you think that was removed? Possibly because everyone was grinding the same activity over and over for max gains instead of just playing for fun in their own way like people do now?
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester You dont like my ideas i dont like yours so i have ever bit of a right to state that.
Of course you have that right, but the most incredible thing about this discussion is that, after ten whole pages of people dismissing your suggestions, you still haven't been able to provide any counterpoints beyond the need to uphold your own personal principles of fairness, morality and entitlement.
All of which, if you'll notice, will do nothing for you in Eve except hold you back.
/Ben
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.12 11:03:00 -
[282]
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester And from this point to max out my shields and HAMS being able to use tech two drones maxed out nav skills relevent to pvp proper rigging ect with a head full of +3's already and its still 451 days off
So you base your comparison on the incorrect assumption that the people you'll come up against and against which your skills will be compared will have all L5s… and thus your comparison has no basis in reality.
Quote: So who ever said a 1 year toon ve a 6 year toon is = your wrong go open evemon your self and test it out .
Now try doing the same test with all L4s instead and see what happens.
Quote: And i think my point was lost in this mess i can tell some of you didn't read it well what i had said about it being unfair is a 5 year player who logs on 5 hours a week should not be bale to stay ahead in SP vs a player who loges 40+ hours.
And the point that you keep losing because you refuse to read what others actually write is that the person who logs 40+ hours will be so far ahead the 5h-guy that it's downright silly. What you're asking for is already in the game.
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Giving a 10-15% increase to active players in sp gains still doesnt make it a grind game. If sp dont matter and its only skil that matters why do people bother training up for the larger ships why dont you all just fly around in tech 1 frigates with all tech 1 fits and **** all over ships.
You'd be surprised how many do exactly that.
Quote: I like what the larger ships have to offer
Ok, so we can add another point to the questions you refuse to answer:
Why do you feel the need to grind SP? Why do you think that having more SP matters? Why do you think that "catching up" is impossible? Why do you feel that it even matters? What do do think "catching up" entails given the EVE skill system? What do you think larger ships will give you?
oh and one more:
Why do assume that you'll be alone? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2010.02.12 12:54:00 -
[283]
Originally by: Tippia
oh and one more:
Why do assume that you'll be alone?
given the quality of his posts... I sure as hell can think of a couple of reasons.
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Daemonspirit
Redhawk Tribal Trust
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Posted - 2010.02.12 15:21:00 -
[284]
Originally by: Gariuys
Originally by: Tippia
oh and one more:
Why do assume that you'll be alone?
given the quality of his posts... I sure as hell can think of a couple of reasons.
Beat me to it, dammit!
Chester - If you can play 40 hours / week, YOU ARE AHEAD ALREADY! IF you use those hours for something besides NPC killing. IF you use those hours to test fits. IF you use those hours making connections with people. IF you use those hours in any way OTHER than what would be considered "the norm" in all those other games you've played.
I know, I've been playing them since 1985.
Eve =/= any other MMO out there.
As to the *specific* point you make, to wit: Player playing 40 hrs/week should get % bonus to sp gain over player only playing 5 hrs /week for "activity". What activity *SPECIFICALLY* would trigger this SP gain? Because just about *any* activity you suggest is going to be able to be done by *any* other pilot in game, and will be. Therefore completely negating *any* supposed benefit you might have thought to accrue (i.e. "catch up").
In any meaningful manner (in Eve) if you can play 40 hours a week, I GUARANTEE you, you will be FAR ahead of the 3 yr. old player who only plays for 5 hours a week, probably within a year. He/She still may have more SP than you, but you will be far more *SKILLED* than that player.
As far as wanting "larger" ships. Pick one, and train it up. Train the supports. You will quickly reach 90% efficiency with your selected ship as anyone else in game. There are, after all, only 5 levels to any skill. If you wait to do the activities you like, until you get to X skill points, your going to be severely gimping yourself.
ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö |
Samantha U
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Posted - 2010.02.12 15:32:00 -
[285]
He's just butthurt because EVE actually caters to casual players as well as 'hardcore' players like he imagines he is. He doesn't like the fact that people with lives and jobs can actually progress and enjoy the game without having to be uber like he sees himself.
Living in Evemon and EFT does not make you a hardcore player, going out and learning the finer points of the game is what makes you better at playing. There are players with barely a million skill points that could take down much older characters because the went out and spent a bit of time testing their ship fits in the field and learning from mistakes rather than staring at EFT all day.
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MrBinary
Minmatar Binary Systems
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Posted - 2010.02.12 15:36:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Fergus McRae To the OP:
Ya, well, babies don't know as much as adults when they're born, they have to learn it as they grow up.
Eventually, those who were significantly older than we were when we were born will die before we do. Meanwhile lots and lots of babies will have been born after us as we've aged. After a certain period of time we'll be the folks who know a whole lot while babies and children know very little.
Does any of this sound familiar?
There's nothing "fair" or "unfair" about the fact that older players have more skills and are more able. Do you think it's fair that we should be able to join the game 5 years after it's launched and be on par with folks who've been here the entire duration? I sure as **** don't.
Get over it.
Perfectly put.
Wherez my purplz!?!
"[ 2004.05.20 20:11:42 ] Hodal Xibur > Die MrBinary" |
Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.02.12 15:52:00 -
[287]
I'll add my whine to nullify your whine.
It is unfair and unbalanced to have an exp based character growth system because those with more play time can "level up" faster than some of us guys with less time.
Point? Stfu and put your time in playing the game. |
James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.02.12 16:14:00 -
[288]
Nice troll. Seriously. We haven't had people this riled up in awhile.
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.
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Posted - 2010.02.12 16:50:00 -
[289]
I am also replying this obvious thread.
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Joseph Maccabi
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Posted - 2010.02.12 16:55:00 -
[290]
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester mildley complex and hard core are not the same .. This game offers very little for the true hard core gamer Has plenty for the slightly more then casual gamer how ever
Yeah come to 0.0 and participate in week long CTA ops to repel and invading coalition into your space and then tell me how not hardcore Eve is compared to ANY lame ass MMO out there.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2010.02.12 17:00:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester mildley complex and hard core are not the same .. This game offers very little for the true hard core gamer Has plenty for the slightly more then casual gamer how ever
Yes, well trolled, but lets cut to the chase.
1: Contrary to what you believe most people do not consider a game to be "hard core" because you are required to kill 600 rats and learned to spam the jump button.
2: If you do not consider EVE to be "hard core" perhaps you can explain why you are currently failing at being successful, particularly when players with far lower skills are having no problem.
3: Grinding does not equal skill.
4: The ability to grind for long periods of time simply means you are easily amused.
5: Training skills does not equal being skilled.
6: People who have difficulty playing a game successfully, while others around him succeed while playing under the same rules, tend to look foolish when blaming their failure on faulty game mechanics.
7: If you don't understand the points made above, come back when you are experienced enough as a gamer to understand.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Tarine Ammatari
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Posted - 2010.02.12 17:02:00 -
[292]
wtf is wrong with you people ... There is no debate here.
You want more skillpoints by playing more ? Earn more isk by playing more and get older character. It's not that complicated. End of story. ISK is a universal monetary exchange system. You can get ANYTHING in Eve with ISK. Well, almost anything. So you want more experience points ? Translate them into ISK and stop being a ******. If you dont like it play other games.
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Cocomomo
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Posted - 2010.02.12 17:06:00 -
[293]
SOLUTION FOR ALL
Attribute Remap Cool down reduce to every 6 months
Anytime Attribute Remap = $500 million isk with all implants destroyed
I think its a good compromise
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Zartanic
Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.02.12 17:18:00 -
[294]
I have to give the Op credit for sticking to his guns and making this last 10 pages, Troll or not.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2010.02.12 17:19:00 -
[295]
Originally by: Tarine Ammatari wtf is wrong with you people ... There is no debate here.
You want more skillpoints by playing more ? Earn more isk by playing more and get older character. It's not that complicated. End of story. ISK is a universal monetary exchange system. You can get ANYTHING in Eve with ISK. Well, almost anything. So you want more experience points ? Translate them into ISK and stop being a ******. If you dont like it play other games.
Tis true.
There is nothing better than finding a newish player that just purchased a high skill point character, and then popping him with a low skilled combat alt.
It tends to illustrate the difference between skill points and actual skill/experience far more accurately than any forum thread.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking Yggdrasill.
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Posted - 2010.02.12 17:19:00 -
[296]
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 12/02/2010 17:26:16
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester blablabla, I'm playing the game, blablabla
Why do you assume that oldest players did not played the game like you a long time ago ? I'm, well, I don't really kinow, but say > 55M sp, and spend whole days on this game. Even whole weeks playing this game.
So... You have two choices, really : - work your isk up and buy a character - work your sp up and enjoy rolepaying the destiny you forge.
I choose the second way. Now I can go in any ship T1/T2 S, M but CSes and industrials ships with all skills L5. And all L ships with L4 (I really don't care capships, I'm a poor person).
BUT : - I can't fly in 4 ships at the same time. I don't have a second account (I had one, I'm not hardcore enough for this AND this is dishonorable to my eyes). - I don't have +100% defence or dps against newbies flying the same ships as me (like any other mmo) - I don't play that much last two year, so today my wallet is under 1m (really... I never got over 350m anyway : I'm too honest for the game :/) - I have many options you'll have in two or three years.
In Eve, three 1-month-newbies (newbies as in "I never played the game before but I'm smart enough to fit a ship somehow") can kill a 4564656161 years pod pilot.
Try that in WoW. You'll need 60 newbies. ~ OSEF |
Meredith Midnight
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Posted - 2010.02.12 18:47:00 -
[297]
Originally by: Ranger 1
1: Contrary to what you believe most people do not consider a game to be "hard core" because you are required to kill 600 rats and learned to spam the jump button.
Who says most people dont consider it hardcore to kill 600 rats or find all items or whatever. All you need to do is look at the trophy systems in the PS3 and 360 consoles, and look at the WOW population to find evidence otherwise. (Sony implemented it as an afterthought after finding out how popular it was on 360). "Hardcore" is subjective anyways, while I find grinding boring as hell, other people will do it, because its their definition of hardcore.
Quote:
2: If you do not consider EVE to be "hard core" perhaps you can explain why you are currently failing at being successful, particularly when players with far lower skills are having no problem.
Can't speak for the OP(troll or not), but I would assume it's due to the fact that he believes that he's not being rewarded for playing the game more than some other guy. If I may project, it's like having 2 people with level 10 characters, 1 can easily defeat the other because he has more knowledge about the game mechanics, but the character that lost is ****ed that he should be at level 15 based on the amount of grind he puts in. Thats his definition of hardcore, and it's nigh impossible to convince him otherwise, and he won't find it in EVE
Quote:
3: Grinding does not equal skill.
I dunno, I find that it takes great skill to be able to tolerate having to save the damsel for the X hundredth time. I certainly don't have that skill, need to train grind tolerance to I.
Quote:
4: The ability to grind for long periods of time simply means you are easily amused.
As long as they're having fun, I dont see what's wrong with how they have it.
Quote:
5: Training skills does not equal being skilled.
True, but it does give you a hell of a headstart if you can do 25% more damage/rep/agility when you're starting off.
Quote: 6: People who have difficulty playing a game successfully, while others around him succeed while playing under the same rules, tend to look foolish when blaming their failure on faulty game mechanics.
Not really, it just means that they need to be informed on how to play successfully (which i hope this thread is doing to any new players who read it). If they look foolish to those who know how to play the game and they do nothing but point and laugh, then I would say its the viewer who is at fault for not helping them become better players.
Quote: wtf is wrong with you people ... There is no debate here.
There is a debate here, its the debate on how important SP is versus player skill (i say its a healthy combination of both).
Quote: I have to give the Op credit for sticking to his guns and making this last 10 pages, Troll or not.
Indeed, it makes for a good read
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lollerwaffle
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2010.02.12 18:57:00 -
[298]
Originally by: Meredith Midnight Not really, it just means that they need to be informed on how to play successfully (which i hope this thread is doing to any new players who read it). If they look foolish to those who know how to play the game and they do nothing but point and laugh, then I would say its the viewer who is at fault for not helping them become better players.
It's all down to the new player's attitude. Attitudes like the OP's generally get scorned and laughed while I and many others would never hesitate to point out mistakes and hand out advice to anyone who asks a question with the correct attitude. For example, the OP started well (a bit whiny but meh). Following the first 6 pages of replies telling him how he was wrong while giving him decent advice and getting ignored just makes people lose patience. In this case, it IS the newbies fault for being an idiot, and we are free (I'd say an obligation really) to laugh at them and not help them become better players.
Also, upon further review, I revise my original score of 13/10 and award the OP another 3 bonus points for making this reach 10+ pages. New score: 16/10 We're gonna need a higher score limit at this rate.
Originally by: salva dore Cloak should not be AFK solution. What do you think?
Originally by: AFK Cloaker
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Riedle
Minmatar Raptus Regalitor Black Legion.
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Posted - 2010.02.12 19:40:00 -
[299]
Edited by: Riedle on 12/02/2010 19:43:28
Originally by: Chesterr theMolester mildley complex and hard core are not the same .. This game offers very little for the true hard core gamer Has plenty for the slightly more then casual gamer how ever
Congratulations you have lost at EVE.
Edit to add that I too have small nipples.
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Pater Peccavi
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.02.12 20:05:00 -
[300]
I don't have nipples _________ My name is Pater! |
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