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Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:15:00 - [1] So I will start by saying I am new player about a month old and the game is pretty good. The only flaw is this skill system that's in place don't bother saying "it's worked this long just fine" or "if you don't like it go play something else" I've seen that on every post about this subject that I can find. But the fact of the matter is the game is so far along that it creates an imbalance to the game for new players vs. old players in terms of no matter what we do (as a new player) we will never catch up in skill points sure we will catch up in player skill in time but since equips are based on time lots and lots of time the older player will always have the ability to fit his ship better. Now I do not mind putting time into games I've played MomÆs since 1998 And have put in no less than 5 years to each game that I've really gotten into. Everything from care bear games like WOW to UO staying on the pvp side of the world for 9 years and being in lineage 2 and eq 1 on pvp servers and many others. Now whatÆs unfair about it is to players like my self that have the play time to put in I should have the ability to catch up to a player who has been playing from 1-5 years and only log in maybe 10 hours a week and yes I've also heard "well if you play more you get more isk" and "you'll have more time to gain your actual player skill" that's all fine and dandy and things I should be able to get as someone who logs more hours then anyone (so far) that I know in game. But as a player who logs this many hours I should be able to gain some ground on the vet player in skill points, and I'm not looking to do it in a month or six months or even a year but if I play this game for say 2 years and log 40+ hours a week I do not think its unreasonable to be caught up in skill points to a 4 year player who has logged 15 hours a week since he started. That would mean that I have logged 4160 hours of game time to his 3120 that is over a thousand hours more of play time so yes I think it would be perfectly fair for that to happen. Now I expect the "It's not our fault we don't have that much time to play why should you be rewarded for playing more" follow by a list of 12 year old insults of "you got no life" or "you live in you're moms basement" And to that I say It's not my fault first that we (the new players) didn't start the game 5 years ago and two you don't have the financial stability and have to work a full time job there for you don't have as much time to play. And if you do not have the time to put into a MMO don't play one. Now my subject line is new vs. old players the reason I said this is one of two things are going to happen one they keep the current system in place and will in turn lose a lot of the new hard core players (some will stay) or two they revamp it in some way to allow players like my self to at least catch up a little to vet players in SP so I can use the better ships and tech 2 equips and in turn will have a few of the vet players rage quit the game and again some will stay. Now I am not saying the game won't stay stable for awhile the way it is but it would grow a lot faster IMO and have more fresh players if they implemented something into game that would give us a SP bonus. I am not looking for them to stop the SP gains while off line that's pretty cool but implement a bonus to active players and I mean really active not people just floating in high sec space or docked in station but I am sure they could implement something that would both be effective and prevent people from just logging in and sitting around. I have also seen a lot of people talking about people making Macros to stay active and again this is something that can be prevented crack down and perma ban macro users 100% of the time and I will be willing to bet you will not see them doing it very much.
Zitus	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:16:00 - [2] Welcome to Eve. Put on your fire suit and prep for flames
Thuranni Eldjotnar	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:18:00 - [3] Not this **** again.
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:20:00 - [4] Suspiciously trolly name but whatever... Make lots of isk Buy a higher sp character Fail at eve anyway because the important thing is skill, knowledge and connections not skill points ~ Soar Like a Penguin
jodine	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:22:00 - [5] RL money---> pilot licence----->char bazzar------>????------->win alternetly Hours of grinding for isk-------> char bazzar------->??????------>win game is fine the way it is
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:26:00 - [6] Sigh i didn't see this coming Buy a character LOL. It only further proves that most of eve players want something for nothing. And its is posted on a alt to avoid fail grievers from war decing my corp. The fact that it's legal to buy isk via plex and buy characters via isk further prove this. *Buying character is fail*
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:27:00 - [7] Edited by: Akita T on 10/02/2010 05:31:27 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester we will never catch up in skill points sure we will catch up in player skill in time but since equips are based on time lots and lots of time the older player will always have the ability to fit his ship better. Pick a ship. Or an activity. Any ship, any activity. Now list all skills that can possibly have an influence on the effectiveness of what you chose to perform. Total up all the skillpoints needed to get all those skills to L5. You will notice it's a finite number, and not really such a huge number. Now, recalculate the same thing, but this time, only put all related skills to L4, with L5s only where they are prerequisites or absolutely necessary for the proper performance of your chosen activity. Not only will you notice that the SP total has drastically gone down, but that your actual performance isn't THAT much lower (since most of the higher-rank skills have the least overall effect). And now, ask some (much) older players if THEY have their skills trained above those levels. You'll be surprised to hear just how few actually do. SP total doesn't necessarily make you MUCH BETTER. It does however almost always make you MORE VERSATILE. Long story short, if you specialize, in your chosen field, you can become an expert in a relatively short amount of time, and above average surprisingly fast. In a game where 10 experienced pilots flying a 1-month-old characters can beat 20 disorganized rookie pilots with purchased high-SP characters, or where 10 well-organized newbies led by one experienced pilot can easily obliterate 5 experienced pilots on much higher SP characters that didn't bail out in time... SP count doesn't matter anywhere near as much as you seem to think it does. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Akira Kurosaw	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:27:00 - [8] If we assume we both are going to be flying the same ship+fit, which you have speciallies towards so you have L5 skills for that specifik ship, does it then matter that i can fly more and bigger stuff? are your level 5 skills some how worth less?
jodine	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:28:00 - [9] Edited by: jodine on 10/02/2010 05:28:26
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:32:00 - [10] No my level 5 skills are not worthless how ever say we are both flying frigates tech two tech two fits and its a stale mate and you dock up. Now you come out and undock in a domi tech tech 2 drones now my frigate is not gonna win. Now lets say i do the same it becomes a stale mate you dock up undock in an other ship suited to take out the domi with drones ect ect in the end the more versatile play will have the upper hand is all i'm saying.

Mr M Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:32:00 - [11] In short, my 15,524,275 skill points in Science wont help me in a fight. Eve Tribune\|EVEgeek\|Firebrand Radio
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:35:00 - [12] This is not a 1-vs-1 game, it's primarily a many-vs-loads game. Numbers, competent chain of command, ability of group to follow orders but also think critically in the absence of direct orders, THAT is what makes the difference between victory or defeat. NOT the SP total on any side. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Sjoor S.A.S Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:35:00 - [13] I agree with the op. Every 100 npc kills you should get 1 million SP to freely distribute at your own. Every 1000 kills a free hac of choice. every 10000 kills a free capital ship of choice. every 100000 kills a titan of choice for free. That redeem items button is not there for nothing. CCP use it already.
arjun1	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:41:00 - [14] my combat char can fly all frigs and use all t2 frig equipment but i can fly only one ship at a time. when i started there were no advanced learning skills, no skillbonus for new chars. +5 imps did cost billions system is fine as it is.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:43:00 - [15] sjoor This is not what im looking for but say after 100 kills npc or pvp i get a 10-15% bonus for x amount of time or x amount of ore mined or refined i get x amount of sp bonus for x amount of time. ect ect just give the active player a little bonus to sp gains.
Sjoor S.A.S Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:46:00 - [16] Originally by: arjun1 my combat char can fly all frigs and use all t2 frig equipment but i can fly only one ship at a time. when i started there were no advanced learning skills, no skillbonus for new chars. +5 imps did cost billions system is fine as it is. That's a good point. Should get advanced learning skills out of game. Remove attribute implants. Remove the start SP from startup, disable the nobbie bonus on SP gain. Let's force everyone to do missions to gain SP. You want science SP, do science missions. Wanna fly a hauler, transport missions it is, etc etc. This would greatly improove the your gaming experience Originally by: CCC Mitnal Locked. Please use more content in opening posts. In our experience using one or two liners inevitably leads to a decline in the standard of posting within the thread.
Slade Hoo Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:47:00 - [17] no ------ I'm just a lonely pirate on my way to ascension
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Sigh i didn't see this coming Buy a character LOL. It only further proves that most of eve players want something for nothing. And its is posted on a alt to avoid fail grievers from war decing my corp. The fact that it's legal to buy isk via plex and buy characters via isk further prove this. *Buying character is fail* My point was this WASN'T a solution. Specialise in a roll, level v skills help but you can spend say 11 days training 1 skill to level v, or invest it in many other support skills to IV and improve your 'skills' far more. Your attitude suggests you don't really have what it takes to do well in eve... spend some more time playing and you might understand better. ~ Soar Like a Penguin
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:49:00 - [19] lets try to put this in wow terms. lets say you can lvl all of the classes on the same character. you don't need to make alts, you can train all of the classes on the same character, but you can only play one at a time. so a new player might come and play for two months and reach the end lvl and (gear exluded) be all he can be in that class. now an older player might have all of the classes trained by now, since he has been playing for a year, but both of them can only play one class at a time, and when they meet, in pvp, even though the older player can also play all the other classes, that is of no use to him now, they are both in their selected class fighting it out, completely fair. its the same in eve. a young player can be specialised in frigates. and when he meets and older player who can also fly a carrier of three different races, the only difference is that if poded one of them will dish out 20 mil for the new pod. once you have the support skills trained and specialize in one area you are the best you can be in that area (skill wise). and if you meet someone who is also specialised on other areas it does not matter. carrier or battleship skills have no impact on frigate skills. so the only difference is that an older player can pick between many ships, while a younger one might only have a few specializations. just like in the wow comparison. but that is the key word, and the best advice you can get, specialize! think of the skill system not as very long, but very wide, with a certain branch only going so far. did you try rvb? lots of low skill pilots there, now that fac war kinda evolved
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:50:00 - [20] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester sjoor This is not what im looking for but say after 100 kills npc or pvp i get a 10-15% bonus for x amount of time or x amount of ore mined or refined i get x amount of sp bonus for x amount of time. ect ect just give the active player a little bonus to sp gains. So if I leave my Myrmidon in a COSMOS complex with drones out right after downtime, then come back shortly before downtime starts again the next day, I should have not only extra ISK but also a lot of SP to distribute ? Oh, or maybe, just maybe, finally get the incentive to code my own macro for mining that would be basically indistinguishable from an extremely bored person (I'll even throw in a "sorry no speak english good" reply routine to convos or such, or heck, a rudimentary "cleverbot" type nonsensical conversation module) actually mining at far from peak efficiency and leave it running 16 hours a day ? How about, even better, get two of my alts in opposing corps that have wardecced eachother, fly only amarr/gallente laser/drone ships and keep'em outside shooting at eachother to gain extra "combat SP" ? Nice idea, genius ! _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _

Sjoor S.A.S Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2010.02.10 05:57:00 - [21] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester sjoor This is not what im looking for but say after 100 kills npc or pvp i get a 10-15% bonus for x amount of time or x amount of ore mined or refined i get x amount of sp bonus for x amount of time. ect ect just give the active player a little bonus to sp gains. Tbh you fail at EVE, go back to whatever dungeon you left. If you don't understand that all you need is an mwd, scram and web to assist in this multiplayer game you should concider to focus your attention on some irl advanced classes. Originally by: CCC Mitnal Locked. Please use more content in opening posts. In our experience using one or two liners inevitably leads to a decline in the standard of posting within the thread.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:03:00 - [22] If you had taken time to read my post i also said crack down on macro players. Trust me they know when your running a macro and when you not. And i fully understand about specialization how ever A mining boat is different from a pve boat and a pvp boat is different from a mining or pve boat so say i want to pvp i can't pvp without isk there for i need a mission running boat or mining boat to make isk in order to pvp so its not really easy for a single account owner to do such a thing. I would love CCP to stop plex selling for isk and character buy for isk and see how many people change there minds about this subject.
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:07:00 - [23] You can use the same skills to run missions as you use for pvp; mining is not a cost effective way of making isk in game and unless you are working in 0.0 for a corp or alliances industry effort it is pointless. You can make it with one character but not with your defeatist attitude. Enjoy your probably short lived time in eve. ~ Soar Like a Penguin
Epegi Givo Amarr Araja clan	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:08:00 - [24] I was in a BS the other guy was in a BS. He was twice me Age. He was in a hyperion, and had a good active tank that my guns would not break. But I brought a cap neutralizer. So I was able to undo someone twice my age in a 1v1 BS fight. Me and a friend were in HACs. The enemies had 2 drakes, a HAC, and a hurricane. I am early 08 and my friend was mid 07. All the enemies we 05. We very quickly popped the enemy HAC and he jammed the cane with drones. 1 drake and the cane got away. Both of us were still alive. Anyone who says that age is a huge factor is full of ****. __________________________ My other alt is A Ferrari
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:10:00 - [25] Edited by: Akita T on 10/02/2010 06:15:33 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester If you had taken time to read my post i also said crack down on macro players. Extremely difficult to be 100% sure. Because 99% sure will not do. edit : read the latest edit in the previous post too Quote: Trust me they know when your running a macro and when you not. They can't afford to KNOW on a massive scale. They barely afford to "know" for the few currently reported suspected macro users. What you're proposing would increase the potential macro abuser numbers by at least one order of magnitude, with 3 possible outcomes: * increasing GM costs exponentially for CCP * banning legitimate players by accident * letting most macro users untouched Quote: And i fully understand about specialization how ever A mining boat is different from a pve boat and a pvp boat is different from a mining or pve boat so say i want to pvp i can't pvp without isk there for i need a mission running boat or mining boat to make isk in order to pvp so its not really easy for a single account owner to do such a thing. No, a PvP boat is NOT all that different in needed skills and gear from a PvE boat. I'd go so far to say that other than switching around a couple of modules, a PvE boat _can_be_ a PvP boat and vice-versa. Also, the pinacle of mining, the Hulk ? It takes, like, what, 2 months to train for ? And then you're pretty much done, almost on par with any other miner in EVE. Quote: I would love CCP to stop plex selling for isk and character buy for isk and see how many people change there minds about this subject. It would have the exact opposite effect of what you seem to think it would have. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Sjoor S.A.S Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:14:00 - [26] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester If you had taken time to read my post i also said crack down on macro players. Trust me they know when your running a macro and when you not. And i fully understand about specialization how ever A mining boat is different from a pve boat and a pvp boat is different from a mining or pve boat so say i want to pvp i can't pvp without isk there for i need a mission running boat or mining boat to make isk in order to pvp so its not really easy for a single account owner to do such a thing. I would love CCP to stop plex selling for isk and character buy for isk and see how many people change there minds about this subject. mass account ban CCP does nothing your right. Originally by: CCC Mitnal Locked. Please use more content in opening posts. In our experience using one or two liners inevitably leads to a decline in the standard of posting within the thread.
Clair Bear Ursine Research and Production	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:18:00 - [27] You are also missing one fundamental thing: Eve is a blobbing game. 10 newbies in frigates > 1 vet in a battleship. /thread And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question?
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:23:00 - [28] If a bunch of noobs in noob ships are attacking my BS maybe ill get lucky and they will orbit be at 2500 and ill let off a smart bomb.
Jerid Verges	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:24:00 - [29] This game is not WoW, Guild Wars, Runescape, or any of those. Unlike those games, in this game, Skillpoints do not make the difference in a fight. They help, they do tip things in the higher SP account's favor. But they won't win it for anyone. The only thing a high SP account has on a low SP account is the fact it has access to better equipment and ships. A low SP account can easily catch up to a high SP account if it specializes. Either way you look at it. There really is no system that can replace the current one anyways.
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:24:00 - [30] Maybe I'll find a supercap abandoned in space. ~ Soar Like a Penguin

Hot Fudge Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:24:00 - [31] You must have forgotten about the bonus training time for the first 1.6 million SPs. Many of the older players you are referring to never had that bonus. Most of us older players started out from barely any SPs. Newer players can do a whole lot more these days, and much faster, than when a lot of us started playing. The training bonus is relatively new. I made a new character, and he was in a t2 outfitted passive tanked Drake in no time at all. It would have taken much longer without the SP bonus. You have to realize though, if the new players did get what you are asking for, it wouldn't make much of a difference anyway. I mean, SPs doesn't really matter much if you don't have the experience to use them. The older players have the advantage not because of skill points, but because of experience. How are you gonna grant new players an experience bonus? Someone with a lot of experience with EVE can do more with less skill points than a newer player with more skill points. Like I said, it is all about a person's experience. The system is fine. Just be patient, and gain knowledge like the rest of us had to. Along the way, you will acquire what you want. ========================= Sweet, sticky, and bad for your health.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:27:00 - [32] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester If a bunch of noobs in noob ships are attacking my BS maybe ill get lucky and they will orbit be at 2500 and ill let off a smart bomb. How can you let off a smartbomb, Mr.Anderson, if your capacitor is dry from enemy neuts ? _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:29:00 - [33] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester no matter what we do (as a new player) we will never catch up in skill points So? What's the problem you believe this is causing? Quote: I should have the ability to catch up to a player who has been playing from 1-5 years You already do. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:29:00 - [34] Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 10/02/2010 06:29:41 Chances are noob players won't have neuts
Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiau	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:29:00 - [35] Edited by: Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiau on 10/02/2010 06:30:07 Its really a useless discussion. CCP has stated multiple times that they don't want Eve to become a Grinding game. You may want to be able to farm XP, but it will never happen. End of story. And to be clear, i love CCP for it. Grinding for ISK is bad enough imo.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:32:00 - [36] Edited by: Akita T on 10/02/2010 06:33:42 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Chances are noob players won't have nuets If they're genuine newbies, they probably won't have neuts no matter what ship they fly. Chances are, if they're experienced EVE players on newbie pilot characters, they probably will. Maybe not the first time you encounter any of them, but several minutes later before you had a chance to log off, THEY WILL. Either way - why the bloody frak do you think some of the older players create PvP alts instead of fighting "with their main" ?!? Is it because somehow magically for them SPs increase much faster than for an actual newbie ? Or could it possibly be that having a low SP count actually has other advantages you are not even aware of while at the same time being able to reach an adequate performance in a short amount of time ? _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:40:00 - [37] love how people call this a hard core player game when it isn't geared towards hard core players. It even states it on the back of the retail box..
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:40:00 - [38] Naturally, if you were fitting smartbombs on your battleship, you would probably also just manage to get concorded... There is a reason you dont see smartbombs on most subcaps, and its not because they suck up cap for no real dps.. OHGODS BELOW THIS LINE IS MY SIG !!!! SRSLY! Blane Xero > Lance is at -0.9 sec status with a 1 million bounty. Lance is also amarrian. Thats 3 evil points
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:42:00 - [39] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester love how people call this a hard core player game when it isn't geared towards hard core players. It even states it on the back of the retail box.. Do you even HAVE a point anymore or are you just grasping at straws ? _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Raydeus	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:45:00 - [40] Maybe it's because I've got (disturbingly) comfortable with life on EVE after lol2months+ of playing, but I'm gonna have to agree with people here saying that there really isn't that much difference between new players and old players (SP-wise). It's all mainly about knowledge of the game and player skill with maybe 10% being actual SP requirements. My advice is to stop complaining and read (A LOT) about the career paths so you can choose what you really want to do first and don't waste precious time and ISK on dead ends. Then you will find out you are at most a few months away from the highest tier for <insert activity here>. However the knowledge and skill to make the ISK required for that and to take the most efficient path to get there is what separates the n00b that just got slaughtered for trying to buy an item in low sec to save a few jumps from the guy who just added another notch to their n00b kill count. PS > I also think "buy a char with lots of SP" is the worst advice anyone can give to a newbie since they wont have any idea of what the hell to do with it... But then again if someone can make a dumb newbie buy a higher "level" alt they don't use anymore, then well.... that's just EVE.

Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:45:00 - [41] Ya i am waiting on a full on good reason why my idea is a bad one other than people thinking its unfair for a new player to gain a edge on a so called vet player. Because they had to do things a certain way. Like i said If CCP was to stop allowing legal selling of isk and character this thread would not be going how it is.
Qarthy	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:45:00 - [42] More SP do not make a stronger pilot.Which skills you train do. So my 20 mil char can fly a lot of different ships, but the basic skills for them is all the same. What you are not seeing is the skills to fly a certain type of ship do not depend on the amount of SP you, just the skills you train.
victortwosix	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:49:00 - [43] To the OP: You try to trash talk people for "Wanting something for nothing"... But then you complain that you should get an unfair advantage because your new. That sounds a little oxymoronic to me. Focus your skills and fly what you have the most skill points for. Dont want them to run or dock up? Lure them away from a station and scram. I normally hate the peole who verbally abuse the OP's on C+P but this to me is stupid. You want everyone to be the same-go back to Halo and continue ruining that game-not this one. The skill point setup is just fine, with that being said my character is probably younger than yours, and Im posting with my main not an alt. So do us all a favor, HTFU
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:51:00 - [44] Also about specializations as a caldari pilot say im using a Drake I would need Hams for pvp and reg heavy for pve thats two dif specialization skills not to mention everyone i talk to is telling me As Caldari if i want to pvp im better off cross training to a dif race ship. so what choices do i have? I either forced to make due with what caldari has to offer or cross train hence hindering my specialization or making a new toon
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 06:56:00 - [45] Originally by: victortwosix To the OP: You try to trash talk people for "Wanting something for nothing"... But then you complain that you should get an unfair advantage because your new. That sounds a little oxymoronic to me. Focus your skills and fly what you have the most skill points for. Dont want them to run or dock up? Lure them away from a station and scram. I normally hate the peole who verbally abuse the OP's on C+P but this to me is stupid. You want everyone to be the same-go back to Halo and continue ruining that game-not this one. The skill point setup is just fine, with that being said my character is probably younger than yours, and Im posting with my main not an alt. So do us all a favor, HTFU Go back and read my entire post and try again
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.10 07:00:00 - [46] Drakes are good for pvp. You are full of contradictions and are either a complete moron, or a complete moron trolling. Good day. ~ Soar Like a Penguin
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 07:03:00 - [47] Originally by: Gladys Pank Drakes are good for pvp. You are full of contradictions and are either a complete moron, or a complete moron trolling. Good day. They why does everyone i talk to say that armor tank beats shield tank and like every other Gun > missiles
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.02.10 07:05:00 - [48] well you claim the importance of skillpoints... please see here if you are still not convinced after seeing two 2 day old characters take down battlecruisers then please see here
Raydeus	Posted - 2010.02.10 07:05:00 - [49] Fake edited by Raydeus: Never mind, why do I even bother. I think I just got trolled.
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.02.10 07:11:00 - [50] Edited by: Ak''athra J''ador on 10/02/2010 07:12:54 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Originally by: Gladys Pank Drakes are good for pvp. You are full of contradictions and are either a complete moron, or a complete moron trolling. Good day. They why does everyone i talk to say that armor tank beats shield tank and like every other Gun > missiles cause, surprise surprise people don't agree on everything. personally I believe it comes from the fact people are trying to find a perfect ship for every situation, which is exactly what eve is not. certain ships for certain situations. armour tanking is preferred in 0.0 fleet fights because of the remote rep doctrines. as proof a thread that was yesterday still on the first page of general discussion, called Drake is overpowered!! there is no perfect ship. sometimes armour tanking will be better and sometimes shield tanking will be better. depends on the situations. and as far as guns and missiles go. take a look at blasters. then again, take a look at rockets edit: srsly though CCP...could you fix rockets?

Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 07:21:00 - [51] My point being if armor tanking is better in 00 then shield tanking and turrents are better then missiles and as caldari im mainly missiles and shields is it wise to specialize in one area without cross training as a caldari? I do not assume that everyone i have spoken to about this are telling me to cross train out of caldari for pvp are doing it just for the hell of it,
Mallikanth	Posted - 2010.02.10 07:32:00 - [52] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester But the fact of the matter is the game is so far along that it creates an imbalance to the game for new players vs. old players in terms of no matter what we do (as a new player) we will never catch up in skill points sure we will catch up in player skill in time but since equips are based on time lots and lots of time the older player will always have the ability to fit his ship better. Unlike other games, Eve has a few more points that are similar to real life and one of those is that there will always be people (characters) older (played longer) than you. It's part of the games attraction IMHO. No change necessary.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 07:38:00 - [53] Originally by: Mallikanth Originally by: Chesterr theMolester But the fact of the matter is the game is so far along that it creates an imbalance to the game for new players vs. old players in terms of no matter what we do (as a new player) we will never catch up in skill points sure we will catch up in player skill in time but since equips are based on time lots and lots of time the older player will always have the ability to fit his ship better. Unlike other games, Eve has a few more points that are similar to real life and one of those is that there will always be people (characters) older (played longer) than you. It's part of the games attraction IMHO. No change necessary. Thank you for posting this since your attraction is based on real life you have made my point even better lets compare real life pilots. Take a 6 six pilot who flies 20 hours a week and a 4 year pilot who flies 50 hours a week. The six year pilot has 6240 hours of flight time where as the 4 year pilot has 10400 hours of flight time good chance the 4 year pilot is going to be the better pilot.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.10 07:53:00 - [54] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester The six year pilot has 6240 hours of flight time where as the 4 year pilot has 10400 hours of flight time good chance the 4 year pilot is going to be the better pilot. If only time spent online alone would make you a better pilot... if only... Guess what, it doesn't. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 07:59:00 - [55] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Chesterr theMolester The six year pilot has 6240 hours of flight time where as the 4 year pilot has 10400 hours of flight time good chance the 4 year pilot is going to be the better pilot. If only time spent online alone would make you a better pilot... if only... Guess what, it doesn't. Why do people fail at reading comprehension? The guy said he likes eve because it has more real life aspects. So it turn i said that's fine how ever lets take a real life situation then. with the above examples given. The 4 year pilot with more hours of flying chances are he will be the better pilot.
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.10 08:06:00 - [56] This tired old issue keeps coming up despite the numerous posts explaining how the Op is wrong in his core assumptions. MMORPG.com has the same post on a regular basis and I suspect other sites do too. Why do people join a game and expect it all from day one? Why do people keep thinking SP's = progression? There is a ton of evidence showing how there is NO NEED to 'catch up' at all and its just an assumption based on other games, not EVE. Why are people so bad at understanding simple game mechanics they have not come across before?
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 08:09:00 - [57] Originally by: Zartanic This tired old issue keeps coming up despite the numerous posts explaining how the Op is wrong in his core assumptions. MMORPG.com has the same post on a regular basis and I suspect other sites do too. Why do people join a game and expect it all from day one? Why do people keep thinking SP's = progression? There is a ton of evidence showing how there is NO NEED to 'catch up' at all and its just an assumption based on other games, not EVE. Why are people so bad at understanding simple game mechanics they have not come across before? Sigh I am going out on a limb and make the assumption you failed to read the entire post. Not one time in my post did I every say I wanted everything from day one. If i did please show me where. ... ..... ...... Ok now that you failed to find where i stated such a thing I only said it is fair to reward people who play the game more than people who play less. Thanks try again
Wesfahrn WESCORP 2.0	Posted - 2010.02.10 08:16:00 - [58] If you can think of no other way to catch up to other players than skill point wise, then eve is not for you
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.10 08:19:00 - [59] Edited by: Zartanic on 10/02/2010 08:19:16 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Originally by: Zartanic This tired old issue keeps coming up despite the numerous posts explaining how the Op is wrong in his core assumptions. MMORPG.com has the same post on a regular basis and I suspect other sites do too. Why do people join a game and expect it all from day one? Why do people keep thinking SP's = progression? There is a ton of evidence showing how there is NO NEED to 'catch up' at all and its just an assumption based on other games, not EVE. Why are people so bad at understanding simple game mechanics they have not come across before? Sigh I am going out on a limb and make the assumption you failed to read the entire post. Not one time in my post did I every say I wanted everything from day one. If i did please show me where. ... ..... ...... Ok now that you failed to find where i stated such a thing I only said it is fair to reward people who play the game more than people who play less. Thanks try again I read your post in full, I always do and its the same old. You are making wrong assumptions which have been clearly explained in a lot of posts. The skill system in EVE is very simple and it's meant to be. This game is all about personal knowledge, attitude and practise. That's the value of your character. That's why a player trying to buy into the game will fail. That's why a day old alt can cause havoc to characters with high SP. Skills are secondary to that and do NOT define you at all. Why should skills be activity based when that bears no relationship to what's important in a players actual ability? The whole point of EVE is there is no need for mindless grinding and you are not put into a certain play style the day you make your character or by what you do in the game. That's how other games work which is why players are forced to make endless alts and it's tedious. I want a game that rewards me for my personal skill, not some number made up because I mined x ore or killed y ships.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.10 08:26:00 - [60] In the above example it's just as in RL, just replace "online" with "at the helm/stick/rudder/whatever". Logging 10k hours of flight won't automatically make an airplane pilot better than one that logged 6k hours. Truth be told, in EVE, like in RL, at about 1k hours you're more than likely to have pretty much hit your peak already, and the only real difference would be in the inherent talent differences between those two. Now, let's recap: 1. You complain new players have no chance because they have less SP. Your argument was refuted on the basis that SP alone doesn't really matter anymore past a certain point even in 1-vs-1 situations, that this game is not a 1-vs-1 game, and that you can buy an older pilot with ISK if you really really want those extra SP. Also mentioned was the fact that many older players PREFER to create a brand new character for combat instead of fighting with their high-SP one, which directly goes as very solid proof against the idea that new players are at a distinct disadvantage. Not just that, but the "early stages" of character SP generation were constantly improved in favor of new players. Back when _I_ started, +3 implants were already prohibitively expensive and you had to train L5 in the basic learnings to gain access to the advanced ones, starting with negligible SP and no double-speed-until-1.6mil bonus. 2. You then complain people should be able to earn more SP by being online more. That argument was refuted because it would cause far more CERTAIN damage than any POTENTIAL benefits, with in-depth explanation as to exactly why that would result in horrific consequences. In case you didn't know, that's how EVE-Beta was, you did stuff and you earned XP for doing it. That proved quite urgently to be a big mistake, and thankfully CCP were kind enough to correct it in time. Still, within certain limits, your online time CAN influence your SP gain rate. It's called "making ISK so you can buy implants". It has a certain low cutoff for extra SP generation but at high cost, and if you take care NOT to lose them, they can be as good as permanent. 3. You complain that CCP should crack down harder on macro users. How difficult it is to understand that simply WISHING for CCP to magically have a certain way of determining if somebody is using a macro or not is not THAT easy ? There are plenty of AFK-ish players or multi-boxers that seem like macroers to the outside observer. Some MIGHT be multi-boxing macroers with a human supervisor. But then again, how do you tell with 100% certainty which of those cases is the real one ? In the most obvious cases, when CCP has time to investigate them, they are, and if it is concluded they must indeed be macro users without a doubt, a ban is coming, sooner or later. The THOUSANDS of banned accounts in the recent past should be ample proof of the fact CCP doesn't just sit there. 4. You shine that you need ISK to do stuff, but then you show that you don't really know much about how to make ISK in the first place anyway. When it is suggested that you should probably just buy ISK via PLEX/GTC and maybe even buy a character with some of that ISK so you no longer feel "left out", you lash out at people. Now, answer me this - if you buy a 4-year old character after paying the ISK equivalent of less than 48 PLEX + skills/implants costs + transfer fee, who is actually getting the better deal, you, the buyer, or is it the seller ?!? And yeah, they really do go that cheap nowadays. Not only did the original owner actually SPENT those 4 years training it up, but he also PAID for the 4 years of gameplay in the first place too. So basically, you might actually pay less than he did AND not even have to wait 4 years either. So who exactly is the entitlement jerk here ? _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _

Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 08:28:00 - [61] But you are put into a certain play style your forced to be more casual then hard core.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.10 08:31:00 - [62] You know, you are either a pretty damn good troll or a complete jerkwad. Either way, go back to wherever it is you came from. EVE is not for you. We do not like nor desire your presence. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 08:35:00 - [63] Yes i lash out ask people telling me to buy isk and characters i don't care if that is CCP approved or not its CHEATING .
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2010.02.10 08:48:00 - [64] Cheating is bad in EVE !??? Quick! Find me a priest! I need to confess
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 08:52:00 - [65] Cheating someone out of something in game is not the same kind of cheating as buying characters and isk.. And a few things to add if SP points are not the big of a deal then why such harsh replies to wanting a SP bonus of some kind? Also Why do people say no SP bonus you need really work for those gain like we did then go off and say well buy some plex sell plex buy a character that you put no time into. .
Wesfahrn WESCORP 2.0	Posted - 2010.02.10 08:56:00 - [66] You have to seperate your character and your goals from everyone elses so to speak. Dont compare characters/players skill point wise, but perhaps the way they play the game and the entertainment they get out of it. The game progresses in your pace, its not a race to final SP amount or Max Level. There is nothing there waiting anyway. What is EVE is about is what you do, what you decide to do with your skill points. You can look at SirMolle for example, i dont think this guy spent much time worrying about SP amount in order to attain his position in the game. Also, I really dont understand what you have against players that have more SP than you. For like i said they have been playing the game longer, and they havent robbed you of anything that you cant take back -that is another beauty of the game.
Butzewutze	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:02:00 - [67] Another Moron who knows "nothing" about the game but thinks everyone has to agree to his stupid design ideas. Maybe Hello Kitty online would be something good for you. If you dont like EVE like it is then dont play it.
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:07:00 - [68] Edited by: Zartanic on 10/02/2010 09:10:34 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Cheating someone out of something in game is not the same kind of cheating as buying characters and isk.. And a few things to add if SP points are not the big of a deal then why such harsh replies to wanting a SP bonus of some kind? Also Why do people say no SP bonus you need really work for those gain like we did then go off and say well buy some plex sell plex buy a character that you put no time into. . I consider buying characters cheating as well and it's dumb when people say that as a solution as its a crap one. But it's allowed and that's that. It's also irrelevant. You still have not shown at all that characters with a high SP have an unfair advantage over newer characters. The skill system ensures that and it's obvious how it does it. Your whole premise is false. I know if some more SP's are given to players for activity the game would break. This is because you would then have a whole new class of players who can be moaned about and how would you distribute those points? It's impossible while truly reflecting what they do in the game. How would you distribute or earn points for skills with no direct ingame link, like core skills or marketing? What a mess it would be. And would you force players to use Tech 1 before Tech 2. If so, how much should they be using Tech 1. What ships will they be forced to fly before they can get into bigger ships? And how do you deal with them being hacked off as they have to grind away to get Tech 2? What precise activities will give you extra skill points? How will the server handle this additional load? And what a waste of time for CCP, what other projects should they drop to do this? The system as it is is not perfect (learning skills suck, they are the only skills that do not reflect directly into the game world) but to change the fundamental basis of it would break the game in many ways. It would also stop players playing elements of the game as they would have to GRIND and in EVE you do not have to grind right now, why introduce a crap requirement like that, especially as other MMORPG's are trying to get away from that model? It would kill player choice as they would be forced into a certain play style, just like all those other games out there.
Exordium8 Minmatar Dead poets society The Laughing Men	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:09:00 - [69] Successful troll is successful. Also, if you are serious and want a game where everyone is equal and has the best skills and items given to them without putting in any effort, WoW is that way -->. If you want a game where you are rewarded for your patience and skill is more valuable than talents, HTFU --------------------------------- Pillage, then burn. Everything is air-droppable at least once. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'time to reload.
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:13:00 - [70] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Cheating someone out of something in game is not the same kind of cheating as buying characters and isk.. Well then, in that case, assuming you get your SP levelling mechanism approved by CCP ... shall we expect another post from you asking CCP to stop character selling, GTC selling and scrap the PLEX scheme? Cheating is such a terrible sin. I hope you will be able to convince CCP that it is the right thing to do, for the sake of their souls.

Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:13:00 - [71] Originally by: Exordium8 Successful troll is successful. Also, if you are serious and want a game where everyone is equal and has the best skills and items given to them without putting in any effort, WoW is that way -->. If you want a game where you are rewarded for your patience and skill is more valuable than talents, HTFU What's ironic is that in WOW its MUCH more of a grind to get what you want. You then have to have several characters grinding their way up levels to get the full experience, it sucks. You are forced into doing 'dailies' and other crap. In EVE 90% of the game is open to me at a level I can compete. I made money trading with no trade skills and did PVP with no combat skills. What other game offers you that?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:17:00 - [72] Edited by: Akita T on 10/02/2010 09:23:51 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Yes i lash out ask people telling me to buy isk and characters i don't care if that is CCP approved or not its CHEATING And we lash out at people telling us that some of the things only present in EVE (out of any reasonable MMOs alive today accessible to a western audience, anyway) that make the game special for us (and have been making it special for years upon years) make him feel "unjustly wronged" (or whatever bloody hell of a sense you tried to give to your ranting), and that his "massive" one-month experience with EVE somehow makes him not just a master of game design in general, but for that of EVE in particular, feeling entitled to an unshakable, final opinion about what "SHOULD" be done to "IMPROVE" the game. EDIT : I'm not saying the game is perfect, far from it. It's just all your arguments so far were total junk, and your so-called solutions downright monumental disasters if somebody in a position of power at CCP suddenly lost 3/4 of their brain and decided to go ahead and implement them. OF COURSE we tell you that if you feel at such a great disadvantage (which we tried to explain only exists in your mind), then you should simply buy a truckload of ISK then also a damn character with some of that ISK... precisely because we know IT IS NOT REALLY CHEATING, as the first few things that will be happening to you after you buy the ISK/char will be: * purchasing a ship you have no idea how to fly (even if you think "well, it's about the same for all ships, how hard can it be") * spending excessive amounts of ISK on subpar fittings for it (since, well, if it's more expensive it has to be better) * going out in search of PvP and promptly losing your new expensive ship (probably not immediately, but soon) * and last but not least, optionally/possibly, an expensive lesson into why high-SP characters don't usually PvP on THAT specific character too much The mere fact you consider ISK/char purchases "cheating" (as opposed to a minor nuisance, yet one NECESSARY for the greater good) shows just how much you DON'T really understand what EVE is all about yet. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Exordium8 Minmatar Dead poets society The Laughing Men	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:23:00 - [73] Originally by: Zartanic Edited by: Zartanic on 10/02/2010 09:19:57 Originally by: Exordium8 Successful troll is successful. Also, if you are serious and want a game where everyone is equal and has the best skills and items given to them without putting in any effort, WoW is that way -->. If you want a game where you are rewarded for your patience and skill is more valuable than talents, HTFU What's ironic is that in WOW its MUCH more of a grind to get what you want. You then have to have several characters grinding their way up levels to get the full experience, it sucks. You can't decide you want your main character to become something else whenever you want as you can do in EVE. In fact WOW has changed the game mechanics a lot recently to try and address this game flaw but it still exists. And the Op want that? You are forced into doing 'dailies' and other crap too. In EVE 90% of the game is open to me at a level I can compete. I made money trading with no trade skills and did PVP with no PVP combat skills. What other game offers you that? I can mine, process, manufacture, trade, mission, PVP, research, do exploration, make my own house (pos) and all the other activities any time I want. I can live in a safe area or a dangerous one. I can switch that at any time. I do not want that to change. My point was more that no skill is required to be good, just time. OP seems to think he should be rewarded or putting in 40 hours a week. Grinding is for WoW. --------------------------------- Pillage, then burn. Everything is air-droppable at least once. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'time to reload.
Baneken Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:24:00 - [74] Let's get a fact straight buying a plex is not the same as buying ISK neither is selling character. When you sell a plex it has been created from the sellers game time which can be sold to other players for a price that they ask (usually +250mil). Essentially this means that even if you'd never again buy game time with RL cash someone still pays it with RL cash to CCP, just the recipient of game time changes. Same goes for characters sales someone is cashing out that extra year spent on plex/RL money to train that character online, so it's definitely not the same as buying ISK or do the math your self -> 2x12x250mil -> 3bil spent to keep that character & main in training. Then you sell the training char for like maybe 2bil(likely a lot less) not exactly an ISK faucet here is it ?
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:33:00 - [75] Edited by: Zartanic on 10/02/2010 09:34:53 Originally by: Exordium8 Originally by: Zartanic Edited by: Zartanic on 10/02/2010 09:19:57 Originally by: Exordium8 Successful troll is successful. Also, if you are serious and want a game where everyone is equal and has the best skills and items given to them without putting in any effort, WoW is that way -->. If you want a game where you are rewarded for your patience and skill is more valuable than talents, HTFU What's ironic is that in WOW its MUCH more of a grind to get what you want. You then have to have several characters grinding their way up levels to get the full experience, it sucks. You can't decide you want your main character to become something else whenever you want as you can do in EVE. In fact WOW has changed the game mechanics a lot recently to try and address this game flaw but it still exists. And the Op want that? You are forced into doing 'dailies' and other crap too. In EVE 90% of the game is open to me at a level I can compete. I made money trading with no trade skills and did PVP with no PVP combat skills. What other game offers you that? I can mine, process, manufacture, trade, mission, PVP, research, do exploration, make my own house (pos) and all the other activities any time I want. I can live in a safe area or a dangerous one. I can switch that at any time. I do not want that to change. My point was more that no skill is required to be good, just time. OP seems to think he should be rewarded or putting in 40 hours a week. Grinding is for WoW. Yes I was agreeing with you, just highlighting how WOW is the ultimate grind fest which is what the Op seems to be wanting. When I did high level raids I still spent 90% of my time keeping my character fit for those raids and you also needed more than one character. It was crap and eventually why I left the game, I felt I was being deliberately blocked every step of the way (as all players are when they realise it, they even have timers now on content) What WOW also does is move the gaol posts every few months as well so the treadmill keeps going and you never feel satisfied. EVE design is much smarter and less lazy than that.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:35:00 - [76] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester No my level 5 skills are not worthless how ever say we are both flying frigates tech two tech two fits and its a stale mate and you dock up. Now you come out and undock in a domi tech tech 2 drones now my frigate is not gonna win. Now lets say i do the same it becomes a stale mate you dock up undock in an other ship suited to take out the domi with drones ect ect in the end the more versatile play will have the upper hand is all i'm saying. Many domi pilots have tried this on my retribution and lost all their drones in the process.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:40:00 - [77] Edited by: Tippia on 10/02/2010 09:43:06 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester My point being if armor tanking is better in 00 then shield tanking and turrents are better then missiles and as caldari im mainly missiles and shields is it wise to specialize in one area without cross training as a caldari? That's a big "if", and it's entirely contingent on the type of combat you find yourself in. A PvP Drake will make people run away screaming… for a little while until they explode. A PvP Raven will melt your face before the screaming even has a chance to begin. But both of these are contingent on the right tool being used for the right job, and one size (shields + missiles) does not fit all. That's why people are telling you to cross-train: to expand the number of situations where you can put your skills (not SP) to good use. The number of SP is almost entirely decoupled from this – there are some skills that will prove useful no matter what, but most of them won't. That's why the whole notions of "catching up" and "having more/less SP" is almost entirely irrelevant and inapplicable to EVE. Those ideas stem from a class/level-based kind of game mechanic that EVE simply does not have. It doesn't work that way here. The rules are completely different. I'm closing in on 40M SP as we speak, and you can "catch up" to me in less than a month because "catching up" is such a narrow concept that it doesn't describe anything in the game in a useful manner. Catching up in domain-relevant SP can already be done and is actually a very quick process. Catching up in overall SP is more difficult, but also entirely irrelevant. Catching up in game skill can be done here just like everywhere else: by playing the game. Catching up in ISK can be done in numerous ways – grinding is one of them if you're so inclined. In short: "catching up" in EVE is a simpler process than you'll find in almost any other game. The reason your idea is being criticised is because it serves absolutely no purpose, and is based on a deeply flawed idea of how the game works. What you actually want already exists in the game, and what you claim you want isn't needed (and will most likely hurt the game by fooling new players into believing things works in ways they actually don't). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:40:00 - [78] Yet all of you are fine with being rewarded for not even logging into the game and as far as fitting an expensive ship jee ill load up battle clinic and find my self a fit because that takes zomg so much leet skills. And yes buying into isk and characters is damn cheating keep lying to your self if you must and that's what makes you feel better about cheating your way though a game fine. And to all the wow talk i quit wow after 5 years of playing and 6 lvl 80s (4 of them in icc 10/25 gear) because it was to damn easy. Want Skill trying playing lineage 2 for 6 years or ultima online in fel for 9 years and come talk to me about skill. Where you can't replace your what you have lost buy logging onto the games web site and buying in game money (cheating) I would be willing to bet i got more MMO exp than any three of you people combined. So yes i do have an understanding of game mechanics no matter what game it is. A game that rewards its players for not even playing the game and getting people to think its this super complex uber hard core game while mildly difficult yes but no means a super hard core game. It is no more a game of dedication and rewarding lazy people who cry about players like my self given to option to gain some extra sp bonus and not wanting to cheat my way into a game by buying isk and a character. No matter what you say or think someone who plays more should be rewarded more in every aspect of the game or anything else he or she does for that matter. If someone puts the damn time into it they deserve a greater out come and if you think otherwise im pretty sure you think this way in real life hence the reason you're at a dead end job and can't afford to put 40 + hours ito recreation like i can. I work for what i have and damn well deserve greater rewards for putting in greater amount of effort and time. SO take you own advise and HTFU
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:41:00 - [79] Edited by: Zartanic on 10/02/2010 09:45:52 Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester No my level 5 skills are not worthless how ever say we are both flying frigates tech two tech two fits and its a stale mate and you dock up. Now you come out and undock in a domi tech tech 2 drones now my frigate is not gonna win. Now lets say i do the same it becomes a stale mate you dock up undock in an other ship suited to take out the domi with drones ect ect in the end the more versatile play will have the upper hand is all i'm saying. Many domi pilots have tried this on my retribution and lost all their drones in the process. Well the Op made up that anecdote as it's rubbish unless both players are stupid, there are many ways to skin a cat which he can't seem to grasp. He also can't grasp that time in EVE DOES reward you assuming it's time well spent and you learn from it. He's ignoring all the posts anyway and latched onto the buying characters which is irrelevant. Op, I wish CCP would give you 100 million SP in any skills you want. Then go out and try and beat experienced players. You will still lose but I bet you will never learn.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:48:00 - [80] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I would be willing to bet i got more MMO exp than any three of you people combined. Lol no. Quote: So yes i do have an understanding of game mechanics no matter what game it is. Apparently not. Quote: A game that rewards its players for not even playing the game and getting people to think its this super complex uber hard core game while mildly difficult yes but no means a super hard core game. Except that, since you don't understand the mechanics, you mistakenly believe that SP = reward. This is not the case. EVE rewards you for playing. Quote: No matter what you say or think someone who plays more should be rewarded more in every aspect of the game or anything else he or she does for that matter. First of all, why? Second of all, EVE already does this. If you don't understand this, even after what everyone has told you, then no, you don't understand the mechanics, and your experience from completely unrelated games is worth squat. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki

Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp.	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:52:00 - [81] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester So I will start by saying I am new player about a month old and the game is pretty good. The only flaw is this skill system that's in place don't bother saying "it's worked this long just fine" or "if you don't like it go play something else" I've seen that on every post about this subject that I can find. But the fact of the matter is the game is so far along that it creates an imbalance to the game for new players vs. old players in terms of no matter what we do (as a new player) we will never catch up in skill points sure we will catch up in player skill in time but since equips are based on time lots and lots of time the older player will always have the ability to fit his ship better. Now I do not mind putting time into games I've played MomÆs since 1998 And have put in no less than 5 years to each game that I've really gotten into. Everything from care bear games like WOW to UO staying on the pvp side of the world for 9 years and being in lineage 2 and eq 1 on pvp servers and many others. This is your first problem. Eve is not like any other MMO. You must unlearn what you have learned from them. You speak of fairness like you are entitled to it. Maybe in other MMOs, but not here. Luckily for you though, the more SP you have, the less they matter. Others have explained this already. Secondly, it's been said by CCP in the past that the average Eve player's sub lasts something like 7 or 9 months. Therefore, if you play that long, you'll have at least as many SP as half the entire playerbase. Considering the game's been going since 2003, that's a pretty good rate of catch up if you ask me. And even then, that's assuming that the value of each SP remains constant as they accumulate. Which again, they don't. Thirdly, you assume that everybody who started the game at its launch is still playing. Many vets have moved on and are no longer playing the game, and what happens when their accounts' subscriptions expire? That's right, they stop accumulating SP. Your argument is like saying you want to be the oldest person in the world and it's unfair that others were born before you. Well guess what, people die, you'll get your chance to be the oldest eventually. Fourthly, allowing newer players to catch up with vets on SP might be attractive for newer players to keep playing, but it's one direct disincentive for vets to be doing the same. If you measure your success in Eve by how many SP you have, and a limit is introduced that you can one day reach, what's the point of continuing? Player numbers wouldn't grow because vets would quit sooner, so the player churn would simply increase. Finally, you're pretty nanve to think that this topic hasn't already been discussed to death over the years. You say you're about a month old, fine. Well, CCP have had years to think about what you're proposing, and I'm pretty sure they've got it right in this instance. Otherwise how do you explain the continued growth of the game, sustained over such a long period of time? It's worked this long just fine, if you don't like it go play something else. /Ben
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:56:00 - [82] Fine if SP isn't that big of a deal than why doe's it take so long to train them all up why not have faster training and let skill work it self out. I don't give a damn how much skill you have if my drake if fitted with tech 2 extenders tech 2 damage controls ect ect i dont give a damn how much skill you think you have if you don't the SP to use the proper weapons to break my shield tank you can have all the skill in the world you will lose. Same goes for anything else tank a fully tech two armor tank if the DPS isn't there due to lack of SP you will not be breaking that tank and again you could have all the skill in the damn world your not breaking those tanks down.
JitaSchnitte	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:59:00 - [83] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester load up battle clinic and find my self a fit because that takes zomg so much leet skills. Fitting a ship != Knowing how to fly it. Quote: And to all the wow talk i quit wow after 5 years of playing and 6 lvl 80s (4 of them in icc 10/25 gear) because it was to damn easy. And u needed 5 years to understand that this is a damn easy game? Can someone say "slooooooooooow". Quote: Want Skill trying playing lineage 2 for 6 years See, you are comparing some of the worst korean-grinder to eve and u still feel like u are right. Hint: You are not. Quote: I would be willing to bet i got more MMO exp than any three of you people combined. So yes i do have an understanding of game mechanics no matter what game it is. You wasted half or your life with MMO's and that makes u an expert eh? Quote: No matter what you say or think someone who plays more should be rewarded more in every aspect of the game or anything else he or she does for that matter. You get more rewards if u play more, all the people in here told you that allready. ISK = better imps = more skillpoints. Quote: I work for what i have and damn well deserve greater rewards for putting in greater amount of effort and time. Then go back to WOW or Lineage.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 10:00:00 - [84] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Fine if SP isn't that big of a deal than why doe's it take so long to train them all up why not have faster training and let skill work it self out. I don't give a damn how much skill you have if my drake if fitted with tech 2 extenders tech 2 damage controls ect ect i dont give a damn how much skill you think you have if you don't the SP to use the proper weapons to break my shield tank you can have all the skill in the world you will lose. Same goes for anything else tank a fully tech two armor tank if the DPS isn't there due to lack of SP you will not be breaking that tank and again you could have all the skill in the damn world your not breaking those tanks down. Depends upon the tank tbh. If your active tanked or buffer tanked with turrets my little sentinel would most likely eat you alive...slowly..and inevetably no matter how many skills you have.
Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.10 10:04:00 - [85] Originally by: Mr M In short, my 15,524,275 skill points in Science wont help me in a fight. Actually, some of them will. Thermodynamics is a science skill.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 10:05:00 - [86] how do i explain the continued growth of the game, sustained over such a long period of time? It's simple this game requires you to have more than one account to be fully effective and since they require such a TIME grind people will continue to have multi accounts geared towards certain things like a pvp account a indy account ect ect. The player base as in the ammount of human players isn't growing as fast as they might like you to think whats growing is the amount of accounts per human player.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 10:06:00 - [87] Edited by: Tippia on 10/02/2010 10:08:30 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Fine if SP isn't that big of a deal than why doe's it take so long to train them all up why not have faster training and let skill work it self out. Begging the question: it takes a while because it's not that big of a deal. More sensibly, though, it's actually quite helpful since it lets you learn the skills needed to use those SP. Quote: I don't give a damn how much skill you have if my drake if fitted with tech 2 extenders tech 2 damage controls ect ect i dont give a damn how much skill you think you have if you don't the SP to use the proper weapons to break my shield tank you can have all the skill in the world you will lose. Funnily enough, the most powerful stuff you'd want to fit on that ship is also the stuff that requires the least amount of SP. And again, you're still referring to SP as some universally relevant game score when in fact it is not. SP matters within a specific domain, and within that domain, it is a (very) limited amount that's needed to get ze goodz – limited, incidentally, also means easy to "catch up" with. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.10 10:20:00 - [88] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 10/02/2010 06:29:41 Chances are noob players won't have neuts Oh geez, if they are clueless than they won't have ammo with them. You can't dumb down game enough so cluelesness won't be pus Basically, it looks to me like you have a) prejudices carried over from other MMOs, b) set of wrong ideas about how Eve is played. For example, neither me personally or people I play with feel that Caldari have no place in pvp. I scored my first kill in Caracal. And another thing for you to think about: consider that experienced player are generally very good in understanding how game mechanics works and working that out to their advantage. So they will gain far more from any "activity" SP bonuses than new players. You saw few ideas in this thread already.
Lexx Khadar Minmatar Free Minmatar Union	Posted - 2010.02.10 10:23:00 - [89] You can catch up with a veteran player in a certain area pretty fast if you specialize. Find something you enjoy. Research it and focus on it and the skills/ship involved. Within months you can pretty much be on equal footing skill-wise with someone having played 5 years. The only advantage they have over you is that they can be more flexible. What your asking is against the way the core games been designed. Plus how are they losing players? This is one of a handful of mmos that the subscribed accounts number actually GROWS over time rather than steadily declines.
Shiratori Ryuuji	Posted - 2010.02.10 10:26:00 - [90] ok guys what the F... please dont get trolled, akita... i thou higher of you... just reply with a nice "COOL STORY BRO!" and move along... obviously this guy is either trolling or just an idiot. COOL STORY BRO! btw: lineage 2 suck.. i bought adena TONS of adena in my time, so i cheated so wut... i still managed to "pwn zome newbz" with my l33t bought noble and its tons of adena..... having just 1 month of gameplay on my shoulders

Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.10 10:27:00 - [91] Edited by: Akita T on 10/02/2010 10:33:08 Originally by: Shiratori Ryuuji obviously this guy is either trolling or just an idiot ...and I need to blow off steam too. Beats screaming at idiotic customers. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Yet all of you are fine with being rewarded for not even logging into the game and as far as fitting an expensive ship jee ill load up battle clinic and find my self a fit because that takes zomg so much leet skills By all means, DO try to take a cookie-cutter battleclinic fit with zero practical experience on where and how to employ that specific fit, then come back here and tell us how long it took you to die and if you manage to at least contribute some damage towards somebody else's death or not. Yes, it does indeed take much more than "zomg l33t copypaste skillz" to not suck at PvP. All battleclinic helps with is to not completely suck at PvP. As far as not being rewarded to go into the game... excuse me, do I have to PHONE MY BANK DAILY to get interest on the money there ? Do I have to call my broker every 5 minutes if I left proper instructions on how I want my trades handled ? Or do I have to sit at every bookstore checkout shelf to collect royalties on my books ? If no to any of those, why SHOULDN'T I get rewarded even if I don't log into the game frequently if I set something in motion personally that brings me the rewards ? Quote: And yes buying into isk and characters is damn cheating keep lying to your self if you must and that's what makes you feel better about cheating your way though a game fine. If in RL some random guy you never knew shows up in front of you, draws a sword and charges screaming "I'm going to kill you", then you take out your gun and shoot him... is that cheating ? If in-game, I go solo into 0.0 and I get blobbed by a 100-man team... were THEY cheating ? Quote: Where you can't replace your what you have lost buy logging onto the games web site and buying in game money (cheating) Oh, I'm sorry... is spending real-life money to cover a game death NOT a loss to you ? If not, can I take some off of you ? A few hundred bucks will do fine. If anything, the knowledge somebody, somewhere just wasted 10-5000$ on his lolfit ship that I just blew up makes his "cheating" so much more hilarious as opposed to annoying. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Mari Seles	Posted - 2010.02.10 10:40:00 - [92] And damn if it isn't amusing to see you rip into the idiot(troll or not)
Myz Toyou APOCALYPSE LEGION	Posted - 2010.02.10 10:50:00 - [93] To Op: Me laughs at you with my 66mil SPs WOW ----> that way.
Kerfira Audaces Fortuna Iuvat	Posted - 2010.02.10 11:03:00 - [94] Another OP who fails to realise that SKILL, not SKILLS is the important part.... An skilled player flying a low-SP character will more often than not win over an unskilled high-PS character because he'll know how to fit his ship and how to fly it. This is also the reason why it so often ends in tears when a rich kid buys a top-end character and fancy ships for PLEX, thinking that now he's really going to own EVE, and then lose that big fancy ships within 5 minutes Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Noun Verber Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.10 11:03:00 - [95] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester [left]So I will start by saying I am new player about a month old and the game is pretty good. The only flaw is this skill system that's in place don't bother saying "it's worked this long just fine" or "if you don't like it go play something else" I've seen that on every post about this subject that I can find. But the fact of the matter is the game is so far along that it creates an imbalance to the game for new players vs. old players in terms of no matter what we do (as a new player) we will never catch up in skill points sure we will catch up in player skill in time but since equips are based on time lots and lots of time the older player will always have the ability to fit his ship better. Now I do not mind putting time into games I've played MomÆs since 1998 And have put in no less than 5 years to each game that I've really gotten into. Everything from care bear games like WOW to UO staying on the pvp side of the world for 9 years and being in lineage 2 and eq 1 on pvp servers and many others. Now whatÆs unfair about it is to players like my self that have the play time to put in I should have the ability to catch up to a player who has been playing from 1-5 years and only log in maybe 10 hours a week and yes I've also heard "well if you play more you get more isk" and "you'll have more time to gain your actual player skill" that's all fine and dandy and things I should be able to get as someone who logs more hours then anyone (so far) that I know in game. But as a player who logs this many hours I should be able to gain some ground on the vet player in skill points, and I'm not looking to do it in a month or six months or even a year but if I play this game for say 2 years and log 40+ hours a week I do not think its unreasonable to be caught up in skill points to a 4 year player who has logged 15 hours a week since he started. That would mean that I have logged 4160 hours of game time to his 3120 that is over a thousand hours more of play time so yes I think it would be perfectly fair for that to happen. Now I expect the "It's not our fault we don't have that much time to play why should you be rewarded for playing more" follow by a list of 12 year old insults of "you got no life" or "you live in you're moms basement" And to that I say It's not my fault first that we (the new players) didn't start the game 5 years ago and two you don't have the financial stability and have to work a full time job there for you don't have as much time to play. And if you do not have the time to put into a MMO don't play one. Now my subject line is new vs. old players the reason I said this is one of two things are going to happen one they keep the current system in place and will in turn lose a lot of the new hard core players (some will stay) or two they revamp it in some way to allow players like my self to at least catch up a little to vet players in SP so I can use the better ships and tech 2 equips and in turn will have a few of the vet players rage quit the game and again some will stay. Now I am not saying the game won't stay stable for awhile the way it is but it would grow a lot faster IMO and have more fresh players if they implemented something into game that would give us a SP bonus. I am not looking for them to stop the SP gains while off l... I took one think out of your post, and guess what it was? (I am a year old in eve time)
Cawfield Rogue Elements.	Posted - 2010.02.10 11:37:00 - [96] I just started playing this game a little over a month ago. I think the skill system is awesome. Seeing as how life is supposed to be fair and all, can I take one for the team and nullify the OPs opinion with my own? I promise I won't rant and rave about how awesome the skill point system is. One love!
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 11:42:00 - [97] Originally by: Shiratori Ryuuji obviously this guy is either trolling or just an idiot ...and I need to blow off steam too. Beats screaming at idiotic customers. As far as not being rewarded to go into the game... excuse me, do I have to PHONE MY BANK DAILY to get interest on the money there ? Do I have to call my broker every 5 minutes if I left proper instructions on how I want my trades handled ? Or do I have to sit at every bookstore checkout shelf to collect royalties on my books ? If no to any of those, why SHOULDN'T I get rewarded even if I don't log into the game frequently if I set something in motion personally that brings me the rewards ? If in RL some random guy you never knew shows up in front of you, draws a sword and charges screaming "I'm going to kill you", then you take out your gun and shoot him... is that cheating ? If in-game, I go solo into 0.0 and I get blobbed by a 100-man team... were THEY cheating ? If I completely and honestly earned 300 billion ISK in the game, then choose to pay anybody who can provide a verified killmail you were a victim in (losing at least 50 mil ISK worth of ship/gear/whatnot) for which they had the killshot a nice 70 mil ISK, and another 30 mil for a corresponding pod killmail plus frozen corpse... am I cheating ? If YOU would get an alt of yours to kill yourself repeatedly and cash in the 100 mil by only losing 50 mil (less after insurance), would you be cheating ? Quote: Where you can't replace your what you have lost buy logging onto the games web site and buying in game money (cheating) Oh, I'm sorry... is spending real-life money to cover a game death NOT a loss to you ? If not, can I take some off of you ? A few hundred bucks will do fine. If anything, the knowledge somebody, somewhere just wasted 10-5000$ on his lolfit ship that I just blew up makes his "cheating" so much more hilarious as opposed to annoying. First of all that book didn't right it self you fail at debates btw. The money to buy stocks didn't make it self again you fail at debates. And again the money in the bank didn't make it self. so again YOU FAIL AT DEBATES. LOL ripping into me ? ya that's working out great for you only reason you think so is because these other wanna be hardcore gamers who are as fail as you are telling you so. These people telling you your winning this argument is like being told your the smartest kid in your special ed class. all those points you made are completely ******ed and would all have to have an extreme amount of work put into them and a lot of man hours writing a book to get royalty's takes tons of man hours not just sitting on your ass and doing nothing. Effective trading of stocks to even make it worth anything again requires tons of man hours people doing shi to make it happen. The money in your bank in order for the interest to really count for anything means you need a good deal of money in the bank and that money comes as a by product oh a lot of man hours so all your come backs or rips what ever you want to call them have been this far epic fail and has shown me how ignorant you really are. And that is why you have to deal with idiot customers at your $7.50/hr job you really and truly think that you should get the same rewards as someone who puts more time an effort into something as one who puts less. and that is why again your stuck at you're job dealing with the customers while your boss is sitting at home or on the golf course or doing what ever because he understands that you need to work for what you get and that is why your doing all the crap work You fail at life you fail at debates and you fail at gaming GG
Dodgy Past Amarr Debitum Naturae	Posted - 2010.02.10 11:45:00 - [98] Here's a simple counter: I'm a 1 year old character in a null sec corp, most of my corp mates are 2-4 years old, yet I'm generally in the top 5 killers for that corp. Also the people I tend to kill are 2+ years old. In the OP's world this is completely impossible, yet I'm sure I'm not the only one experiencing it. Why does this happen? Because I concentrated on a few ships and made sure I spent most of my SP on them. More importantly, I fly 4 ships in PvP everyday, and after every fight I consider what mistakes I made and what I could have done better. Then use that for my next fight. I'm struggling to think of a single loss that was down to lack of SP, but quite a few are down to pilot error. Maybe if you weren't so busy looking for a scapegoat for your failures you'd have more time to spend on improving. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- you seem determined to turn it into ******* Hollyoaks for neckbeards.
Wikis	Posted - 2010.02.10 11:48:00 - [99] omg what a fat troll, grill him !
Othran Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.10 11:50:00 - [100] The trick to this game is not to get fixated on skillpoints, killboards or character age. PvP Combat - I can kill anyone in this game. I'd have to pick my moment and in some instances I'd need to be lucky. I've killed people with ten times as many SPs (in PvP) as me. I've killed people ranked in the top #100 on Battleclinic. I've flown solo and I've flown in small gangs. All of this requires out-of-game "skills" like analysing why you died to that same shipfit for the 6th time In short, while higher SPs makes a significant difference to effective shipfits, YOU should be factoring that into your thinking and adjusting the way you fly accordingly. A very good example of this is the Taranis - if I see a 6-9 month old character flying one then I can pretty much bank on either drone or gunnery skills not being great. A 12-18 month old character on the other hand might have decent drone and gunnery skills, along with some better support skills (mechanic/eng/power). I'll still engage (and did when I was 6 months old) but it will affect the way I approach the fight. Market trading - this is perhaps the best example of why I love Eve. Its not exciting but it rewards intelligence. I've had multiple trade alts now, none has ever had more than 1.6mill SP. At a rough guess those trade alts made me 15 billion in the last year. Not through in-game SPs, but because I find it easy to read the markets. I would have to agree on the manufacturing side of things though. There's a limited amount that out-of-game intelligence can do for you here, except perhaps to help you decide that niche markets are the only viable option. I'm not a manufacturer but a previous character had good enough skills that the best way to move minerals (before freighters) was to build a Scorpion, fly it to where you intended selling the minerals and melt it down. I don't really see a viable entry point to manufacturing for a new character - as a main source of income I mean. Mining - well I'll leave that one well alone. I have mined on a previous character but frankly I'd rather attempt PvP in a pod than mine Missions - well you can do L4s within months so I don't see the problem there. Eve's grind is money, not SPs. If you focus on SPs then you're never going to be content. Its a pretty good troll if it is

Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 11:51:00 - [101] And your only scapegoat when you are failing a debate is to call people a troll lmao. i cant wait to read the reply from that chick who is "ripping into me" or maybe she is to busy with her wal-mart customers
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 11:55:00 - [102] Edited by: Tippia on 10/02/2010 11:56:04 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester First of all that book didn't right it self. you fail at debates btw. The money to buy stocks didn't make it self again you fail at debates. And again the money in the bank didn't make it self. so again YOU FAIL AT DEBATES. So do you understand now why the mechanics of passive accrual of SP isn't relevant to your complaint, and why your argument falls flat? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 11:56:00 - [103] Originally by: Othran The trick to this game is not to get fixated on skillpoints, killboards or character age. PvP Combat - I can kill anyone in this game. I'd have to pick my moment and in some instances I'd need to be lucky. I've killed people with ten times as many SPs (in PvP) as me. I've killed people ranked in the top #100 on Battleclinic. I've flown solo and I've flown in small gangs. All of this requires out-of-game "skills" like analysing why you died to that same shipfit for the 6th time In short, while higher SPs makes a significant difference to effective shipfits, YOU should be factoring that into your thinking and adjusting the way you fly accordingly. A very good example of this is the Taranis - if I see a 6-9 month old character flying one then I can pretty much bank on either drone or gunnery skills not being great. A 12-18 month old character on the other hand might have decent drone and gunnery skills, along with some better support skills (mechanic/eng/power). I'll still engage (and did when I was 6 months old) but it will affect the way I approach the fight. Market trading - this is perhaps the best example of why I love Eve. Its not exciting but it rewards intelligence. I've had multiple trade alts now, none has ever had more than 1.6mill SP. At a rough guess those trade alts made me 15 billion in the last year. Not through in-game SPs, but because I find it easy to read the markets. I would have to agree on the manufacturing side of things though. There's a limited amount that out-of-game intelligence can do for you here, except perhaps to help you decide that niche markets are the only viable option. I'm not a manufacturer but a previous character had good enough skills that the best way to move minerals (before freighters) was to build a Scorpion, fly it to where you intended selling the minerals and melt it down. I don't really see a viable entry point to manufacturing for a new character - as a main source of income I mean. Mining - well I'll leave that one well alone. I have mined on a previous character but frankly I'd rather attempt PvP in a pod than mine Missions - well you can do L4s within months so I don't see the problem there. Eve's grind is money, not SPs. If you focus on SPs then you're never going to be content. Its a pretty good troll if it is thanks for a post that helps this along some i am sorry to people like your self did not intend for this to be a rant or flame thread was simple putting in my perspective of the game.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 12:00:00 - [104] Edited by: Tippia on 10/02/2010 12:00:28 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester was simple putting in my perspective of the game. …a perspective that's based on flawed assumptions rooted in completely different games and on an incorrect understanding of how this game works. That's basically what everyone else have been telling you from the get-go, but which you've blown off because it doesn't gel with your preconceived notions about EVE. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2010.02.10 12:07:00 - [105] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester And your only scapegoat when you are failing a debate is to call people a troll lmao. Err .. aren't you the one that keeps moving argument bases every time? I'd personally classify that as trolling, but if you prefer the serious side, I'm sure we can find a word for it. Hmmm ...starting with "i"? or what about "f"? .. perhaps "n"?
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 12:11:00 - [106] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Chesterr theMolester was simple putting in my perspective of the game. àa perspective that's based on flawed assumptions based on completely different games and an incorrect understanding of how this game works. That's basically what everyone else have been telling you from the get-go, but which you've blown off because it doesn't gel with your preconceived notions about EVE. Point still being is people gaining the same amount of sp no matter if you play 5 mins or 5 hours a day is still lame and i stick to my guns about this. and i would be willing to bet assuming one of the prior posters is correct about the avg account lasting less than a year is due to SP gains not this imaginary unconquerable learning curve you guys project onto this game. While the game is complex and moderately difficult it is not as bad as what you guys have hyped it up to be. And i love the assumptions that i haven't been successful at pvp ive been through 3 war decs from griever corps and ive been active out in the field every day these guys are fielding tech twos and faction ammo on every war dec i've gotten my fair share of kills and i have yet to lose a ship this entire time. and no i wasn't playing lame docking games and orbiting station i been out in the field. even run some mining and missions during these war decs they just have failed to get at me even going as far to use locator agents to find a 1.2 mil sp toon.. heh
Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.10 12:11:00 - [107] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester thanks for a post that helps this along some i am sorry to people like your self did not intend for this to be a rant or flame thread was simple putting in my perspective of the game. Yeah, but you got flamed because you put your perspective in something that can be summed as "Eve has worse skill system than other MMOs, new players have no chances with old ones and everyone who doesn't agree with me is a dirty cheater".
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 12:17:00 - [108] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Point still being is people gaining the same amount of sp no matter if you play 5 mins or 5 hours a day is still lame and i stick to my guns about this. Yes, and the question remains: so what? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.10 12:20:00 - [109] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Point still being is people gaining the same amount of sp no matter if you play 5 mins or 5 hours a day is still lame and i stick to my guns about this. But this statement is faulty. People are not gaining the same amount of SP. It depends on their attributes (so base attributes, learning skills and implants) and if they have noob bonus or not. Additionally, why should you get bonus to Science or Industry SP for ratting, or to Social SP for mining?
oolk	Posted - 2010.02.10 12:36:00 - [110] Edited by: oolk on 10/02/2010 12:45:04 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester My point being if armor tanking is better in 00 then shield tanking and turrents are better then missiles Blah-blah.....its turrets damn it. And no,you cant have my cake. I dont even want your stufz. Bottom line,you want the same sp gathering as when you are farming WoW... See,didnt take 100 lines to say it. Answer is simple: EvE is not WoW.

Mr Azrael	Posted - 2010.02.10 12:54:00 - [111] I wish i'd get 1000 sp xtra for every post i made on the forums... Btw chester when you finally realise this game isn't for you can i plz have your stuff? ( i said plz )
Nefrin Maldoes Minmatar Outer Rim Survey and Salvage	Posted - 2010.02.10 13:17:00 - [112] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester ...two they revamp it in some way to allow players like my self to at least catch up a little to vet players in SP so I can use the better ships and tech 2 equips... Originally by: Chesterr theMolester ... been through 3 war decs from griever corps and ive been active out in the field every day these guys are fielding tech twos and faction ammo on every war dec i've gotten my fair share of kills and i have yet to lose a ship this entire time. and no i wasn't playing lame docking games and orbiting station i been out in the field. Bold/Italic/Underline is mine. You've just proven that you don't need to "catch up" in order to be effective in the game (if what you say is true), so what is your argument again? I always love it when someone "new" jumps in with this idea of earning extra SP somehow. I giggle like a school girl. ---------- while(horse==dead) { beat(); }
Sista Jaxx	Posted - 2010.02.10 13:26:00 - [113] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Ya i am waiting on a full on good reason why my idea is a bad one other than people thinking its unfair for a new player to gain a edge on a so called vet player. Because they had to do things a certain way. Like i said If CCP was to stop allowing legal selling of isk and character this thread would not be going how it is. You accuse experienced veterans of the game having a lack of reading comprehension and then you say this? There have been more than ample and sufficient reasons explaining why your idea is not a good one. You are simply not accepting of any of them. And yet they're all true and they all make sense. It should be reason enough for you that CCP has already given noobs certain bonus to character advancement and will 99.9% not consider ideas of, or like, yours seriously any time soon. If at all. Enjoy playing EVE!
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.10 13:27:00 - [114] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Fine if SP isn't that big of a deal than why doe's it take so long to train them all up why not have faster training and let skill work it self out. It takes longer for the player to learn to fly his ship than it does for the character to skill up for it. You know, your posting style and specific misconceptions about EVE seem very familiar. Particularly your weird obsession with equating "hardcore" to spending ridiculous amounts of time grinding. You're that guy Ginkeq on the MMORPG.com forum who was whining about this aren't you. You were made to look like an ignorant idiot then and you're making yourself look like an idiot now.
Cawfield Gallente Interspatial Logistics Rogue Elements.	Posted - 2010.02.10 13:50:00 - [115] OP: Do you think that maybe your inability to grasp the basic concepts of this game stem from the fact that you play MMOs 40 hours a week? This may mean that your l33t hardcore gaming skills are top notch, but perhaps your social skills are beyond subpar. This is, by and by, a primarily political and social game, and if you're unable to sway popular opinion (and lets face it, no matter how sound you think your arguments are, you have yet to do this), you can forget about amassing any sort of considerable power in this game. Even if you had a kajillion bazillion skill points, you would lose EVE.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 13:51:00 - [116] Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 10/02/2010 13:52:12 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Fine if SP isn't that big of a deal than why doe's it take so long to train them all up why not have faster training and let skill work it self out. It takes longer for the player to learn to fly his ship than it does for the character to skill up for it. You know, your posting style and specific misconceptions about EVE seem very familiar. Particularly your weird obsession with equating "hardcore" to spending ridiculous amounts of time grinding. You're that guy Ginkeq on the MMORPG.com forum who was whining about this aren't you. You were made to look like an ignorant idiot then and you're making yourself look like an idiot now. \ ????????????????????????????????????? What that sounds nothing like what i had to say at all . You completely fail this is why i say peoples reading comprehension has been fail thus far. Go back read what i posted then go and read what you think i posted compare and get back to me until then stay off my post. Oh and your the one that made your self look like a idiot . WTB someone who knows how to debate a matter such at this.
Synex Gallente BIG Aegis Militia	Posted - 2010.02.10 13:53:00 - [117] This tired Old players vs New players tripe again?!? You can check my DOB - I'm one of the oldest players ingame, I've been here since the start, and yet i easily (and often) get my ass handed to me by characters half, even one tenth my age. Once you are past a year old, all additional skills give you is a wider range of professions. A lot of people don't realise that skills in this game come from the player, not the in-game skills. And at the end of the day, if i'm flying an Industrial ship, and you're flying a T1 fit cruiser, i'm still gonna die everytime. So skillpoints don't maketh the win. Synex BIG
Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.10 13:58:00 - [118] I think the real reason you're using an alt to post is so you don't get laughed out of your main's corp for making such poor arguments against a system that has been working nicely for years and is seen by many as one of the strongest points of the game. Skill grinding is found in so many other MMOs and is the reason they become utterly dull. This also seems to be the basis for your assumption that having higher SPs makes characters vastly more powerful than those who have only 1 or 2 million SP. You'll find numerous stories of newer players being able to take down those with a couple of years or more in the game, as well as quite a few stories of those who thought the way to succeed in EVE was to buy a load of GTC, use the ISK to purchase a character from the bazaar along with poorly fit capital ships and cry when they lose them in an instant. Why would such a thing happen if all that mattered was a high number of SP? Player experience, vastly more valuable than skill points.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:00:00 - [119] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Fine if SP isn't that big of a deal than why doe's it take so long to train them all up why not have faster training and let skill work it self out. It takes longer for the player to learn to fly his ship than it does for the character to skill up for it. You know, your posting style and specific misconceptions about EVE seem very familiar. Particularly your weird obsession with equating "hardcore" to spending ridiculous amounts of time grinding. You're that guy Ginkeq on the MMORPG.com forum who was whining about this aren't you. You were made to look like an ignorant idiot then and you're making yourself look like an idiot now. \ ????????????????????????????????????? What that sounds nothing like what i had to say at all . You completely fail this is why i say peoples reading comprehension has been fail thus far. Go back read what i posted then go and read what you think i posted compare and get back to me until then stay off my post. No, actually you sound exactly like him. The main points of similarity: (1) You fail to understand that character advancement isn't the point of EVE. One advances in EVE by playing the game, not by grinding. (2) You want to spend your game time grinding skills because you think that's what MMOs are all about. (3) You think you're "hardcore" because you're prepared to spend 40 hours a week grinding. FYI, in EVE, "hardcore" means almost exactly the opposite of spending time grinding. (4) You played Korean grinders like Lineage for years and years, and think that this somehow makes you qualified to comment on MMOs in general and EVE in particular. (5) You fail to understand that Korean grinders aren't the "one true" style of MMO. You implicitly assume that EVE is wrong in so far as it is different from such games, whereas the whole point of EVE is that it is different from them. You explicitly assert that grinding deserves progress, but EVE is structured so that you dont have to grind to progress. (6) You completely ignore the good advice given to you by players who actually do know a lot about EVE. The best advice I can give you is the same advice I gave "him" in that thread: Forget everything you learned from other MMOs when you start playing EVE.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:14:00 - [120] His arguments are nothing like mine try again please and stop being fail at debating

Sista Jaxx	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:15:00 - [121] Originally by: Cawfield OP: Do you think that maybe your inability to grasp the basic concepts of this game stem from the fact that you play MMOs 40 hours a week? This may mean that your l33t hardcore gaming skills are top notch, but perhaps your social skills are beyond subpar. This is, by and by, a primarily political and social game, and if you're unable to sway popular opinion (and lets face it, no matter how sound you think your arguments are, you have yet to do this), you can forget about amassing any sort of considerable power in this game. Even if you had a kajillion bazillion skill points, you would lose EVE. Exactly. I can't remember if there was even another player that was supporting the idea of the OP.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:20:00 - [122] Originally by: Sista Jaxx Originally by: Cawfield OP: Do you think that maybe your inability to grasp the basic concepts of this game stem from the fact that you play MMOs 40 hours a week? This may mean that your l33t hardcore gaming skills are top notch, but perhaps your social skills are beyond subpar. This is, by and by, a primarily political and social game, and if you're unable to sway popular opinion (and lets face it, no matter how sound you think your arguments are, you have yet to do this), you can forget about amassing any sort of considerable power in this game. Even if you had a kajillion bazillion skill points, you would lose EVE. Exactly. I can't remember if there was even another player that was supporting the idea of the OP. If no one has shared my same idea why has my entire post been riddled with people saying not this debate again?
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:21:00 - [123] I like you Here's 70m skill points, what will you do with them? ~ Soar Like a Penguin
Sista Jaxx	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:21:00 - [124] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester His arguments are nothing like mine try again please and stop me from being fail at debating Fixed.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:25:00 - [125] Originally by: Sista Jaxx Originally by: Chesterr theMolester His arguments are nothing like mine try again please and stop me from being fail at debating Fixed. Oh i see what you did . Typical thing to do when one doesn't have a valid reply in a debate
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:25:00 - [126] Edited by: Tippia on 10/02/2010 14:25:40 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester His arguments are nothing like mine try again please and stop being fail at debating Sure. His points are the same – you just don't have any arguments to back them up because you just want to regurgitate your unfounded nonsense and don't want to debate. If you wanted to debate, you'd have answered a lot more posts than you have now and not just repeated the same thing over and over again. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:30:00 - [127] Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 10/02/2010 14:31:54 Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 10/02/2010 14:31:34 Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 10/02/2010 14:25:40 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester His arguments are nothing like mine try again please and stop being fail at debating Sure. His points are the same û you just don't have any arguments to back them up because you just want to regurgitate your unfounded nonsense and don't want to debate. If you wanted to debate, you'd have answered a lot more posts than you have now and not just repeated the same thing over and over again. Ok well i am going to have to assume you fail at reading too if you think those two post are anything alike.. And i have made my debate point go get someone to read it out loud for you.
Eldern Minderhost	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:32:00 - [128] BECAUSE OF FALCON!
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:32:00 - [129] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Ok well i am going to have to assume you fail at reading too if you think those two post are anything alike. How do they differ, in your opinion? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:37:00 - [130] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Ok well i am going to have to assume you fail at reading too if you think those two post are anything alike. How do they differ, in your opinion? Sigh first of all i suggested a augmentation to the current system not a replacement. And second i never said the game sucked or anything else that person had to say. I also argued some of the people do not want to work for their gains IE: same amount of sp gains no matter if you play 5 mins or 5 hours. people suggesting that buying isk and characters isn't cheating and is a good solution to my post. reply

Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:39:00 - [131] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 10/02/2010 14:31:54 Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 10/02/2010 14:31:34 Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 10/02/2010 14:25:40 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester His arguments are nothing like mine try again please and stop being fail at debating Sure. His points are the same û you just don't have any arguments to back them up because you just want to regurgitate your unfounded nonsense and don't want to debate. If you wanted to debate, you'd have answered a lot more posts than you have now and not just repeated the same thing over and over again. Ok well i am going to have to assume you fail at reading too if you think those two post are anything alike.. And i have made my debate point go get someone to read it out loud for you. And that is where you are going wrong with EVE, you're making assumptions based on prior experiences with other MMOs most likely. You fail utterly in both reading comprehension and debating skills since the only rebuttals I've really seen from you are telling those who are trying to explain why the training system works for EVE is telling them that they fail at one or the other. If you think that EVE fails so badly at being just like all the other games out there, maybe that's what makes it so enjoyable for the rest of us.
Sista Jaxx	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:40:00 - [132] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Originally by: Sista Jaxx Originally by: Chesterr theMolester His arguments are nothing like mine try again please and stop me from being fail at debating Fixed. Oh i see what you did . Typical thing to do when one doesn't have a valid reply in a debate Yeah. It's been a couple years away from gaming forums. I just had to. Pls. forgive. Back on topic though, if you feel that one of the numerous and sensical retorts to your proposition are not 'quite' on the mark perhaps you should reexamine your initial claim for clarity and make any adjustments accordingly so that we may clearly understand what you are stating. Otherwise, your arguments have been negated repeatedly and conclusively. If however you feel that your initial post is coherent, then let it go young gamer. Your opinions about the changing of certain game dynamics will not come to pass by simply posting it on these forums. Perhaps if you feel strongly enough about it then you could redirect your efforts into an e-mail form expressly for CCP developers to consider. Just saying.
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:42:00 - [133] Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 10/02/2010 14:42:39 The only thing that the OP spurned in my head was the concept of play time equaling more SP's. CCP has always said they want to get players to log on and play andnot just switch skills. The suggestion that popped into my head would probably cause more lag and I do not think I really would support the idea, but something like a 10% (just some random # I pulled form the air ) increase in skill training speed while you are logged on may help noobs out a little and give older players more incentive to log on and play? As stated before this may equal certain players just logging on all of their alts just to get the bonus without actually playing, thus hogging resources and advancing faster with little consequence. I said I doubt I would support it, but I thought it sounded good in my head even with the apparent flaws. / puts on his flame suit Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:42:00 - [134] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I also argued some of the people do not want to work for their gains IE: same amount of sp gains no matter if you play 5 mins or 5 hours. Again: so what? Without doing nothing else you'll have all SP and nowhere to go. Quote: people suggesting that buying isk and characters isn't cheating Um, because it isn't. You want to spend much time in game? Go ahead, do it, make obscene amounts of isk = play for free, make manufacturing base, whatever. Buy +5 implants and you will SKILL FASTER.
Dalek Commander	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:45:00 - [135] Train up to use a Hulk (won't take that long). Mine till your eyes bleed, and then buy a 20-25mil sp character of your liking (2-4bil depending on skills). That will save you about 2 years of training, and get you a character capable of doing most things in the game.
jk scowling Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:45:00 - [136] Originally by: Slade Trillgon Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 10/02/2010 14:42:39 The only thing that the OP spurned in my head was the concept of play time equaling more SP's. CCP has always said they want to get players to log on and play andnot just switch skills. The suggestion that popped into my head would probably cause more lag and I do not think I really would support the idea, but something like a 10% (just some random # I pulled form the air ) increase in skill training speed while you are logged on may help noobs out a little and give older players more incentive to log on and play? As stated before this may equal certain players just logging on all of their alts just to get the bonus without actually playing, thus hogging resources and advancing faster with little consequence. I said I doubt I would support it, but I thought it sounded good in my head even with the apparent flaws. / puts on his flame suit Slade Again, will mean people just leave themselves logged in whenever possible. Extra server load, and everyone in your corp/alliance chat being afk at work or whatever.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:51:00 - [137] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Sigh first of all i suggested a augmentation to the current system not a replacement. And second i never said the game sucked or anything else that person had to say. So you do something he does not, and he does something you do not. So what? The commonalities that Malc points out are still there: neither you nor him have grasped how SP works in this game, and perceive them as something they're not. From this misconception, both of you draw false conclusions and perceive problems that don't exist. Both of you glorify grinding and both of you confuse accumulation of SP with progression and with the point of playing the actual game. Quote: I also argued some of the people do not want to work for their gains IE: same amount of sp gains no matter if you play 5 mins or 5 hours. …just like he does. Quote: people suggesting that buying isk and characters isn't cheating and is a good solution to my post. A good solution to your particular problem is to understand the game and why your complaint is a) irrelevant, because the problem you perceive doesn't exist, and b) actively bad for the game, since it draws attention away from the actual game and onto a meta-game mechanic. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:52:00 - [138] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester If someone puts the damn time into it they deserve a greater out come and if you think otherwise im pretty sure you think this way in real life hence the reason you're at a dead end job and can't afford to put 40 + hours ito recreation like i can. I work for what i have and damn well deserve greater rewards for putting in greater amount of effort and time. Quite clearly indicates a troll, IMHO. And even if it is really "40 + hours ito recreation like i can"... putting that hours into trolling... pathetic.
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:53:00 - [139] Originally by: jk scowling Again, will mean people just leave themselves logged in whenever possible. Extra server load, and everyone in your corp/alliance chat being afk at work or whatever. Which I said in my post So I guess it was already mentioned in the thread May be require that there is actual interaction between the player and the computer. Pilots are already logged on afk while at work in my experience. Like there has to be some docking, warping, undocking, target locking, etc. The issue this would raise would be an increase in macros. So again I bork my own suggestion. Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
Major Trant 287 Marine Regiment	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:54:00 - [140] Lets look at this argument from a different perspective and you will see why the OP's suggestion will never come to pass. The CCP perspective. Money. Profit = Income - expenditure. CCP do not want players that play 23/7 and hog system resources. The ideal player to them, pays for multiple accounts and rarely goes on them. The current system of gaining SP without logging on and only allowing one character per account to train SP, is the perfect marketing tool to encourage maximum income (accounts) with minimal expenses (logged on users). It even encourages players just to set up accounts that they never intend to play, just skill up then sell. Why do you think CCP care so much about RMT and macro users? It is not because it is unfair on other players, it is because those accounts generate a lot bigger load on the system and cost CCP money to cater for them.

Duncan MacPherson Minmatar Clan MacPherson	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:56:00 - [141] My character was made in 2005. I have an alt that is 6 months old. My alt can fly a Raven and shield tank better than this character that is 5 years old. To the OP - You argument is old and tired and false. Nice troll though.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:57:00 - [142] my main point is no matter what your doing be it in game or irl the person who puts more time and more effort into something should be given greater rewards in every aspect. People say you get more skill and more ISK by playing more while this is true in some respect i am sure it's not true it all cases. I do not see it unfit to reward a more active player with something extra considering the less active player can legally buy isk from ccp. Changing the system to have more of a sp gain bonus to active players does not change it to a grind game, you will gain you sp while offline at the current rate but at least the more active players are better rewarded for playing their accounts. So please explain how making this type of change will turn this into grind fest? If anything you would most likely see more active people on line and also see an increase of how long accounts stay active. And you make accusations about me feeling entitled because i got more play time that is no different to you feeling entitled to always stay on top with your sp just because you started the game before i did.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:06:00 - [143] Originally by: Slade Trillgon Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 10/02/2010 14:42:39 The only thing that the OP spurned in my head was the concept of play time equaling more SP's. CCP has always said they want to get players to log on and play andnot just switch skills. The suggestion that popped into my head would probably cause more lag and I do not think I really would support the idea, but something like a 10% (just some random # I pulled form the air ) increase in skill training speed while you are logged on may help noobs out a little and give older players more incentive to log on and play? As stated before this may equal certain players just logging on all of their alts just to get the bonus without actually playing, thus hogging resources and advancing faster with little consequence. I said I doubt I would support it, but I thought it sounded good in my head even with the apparent flaws. / puts on his flame suit Slade That's what is intended and a simple fix is implement a afk timer after x amount of time your logged off (this should be put in place anyways) And unless CCP doesn't have the right system in place most ever other MMO's are able to and do actively scan out and ban botters / macros without a lot of man hours in place.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:07:00 - [144] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester my main point is no matter what your doing be it in game or irl the person who puts more time and more effort into something should be given greater rewards in every aspect. Again: why? Again: this is already the case in most instances. Quote: People say you get more skill and more ISK by playing more while this is true in some respect i am sure it's not true it all cases. Again: such as? Quote: I do not see it unfit to reward a more active player with something extra Again: this is already the case. Quote: Changing the system to have more of a sp gain bonus to active players does not change it to a grind game Again: why do you feel the need to grind SP? Quote: you will gain you sp while offline at the current rate but at least the more active players are better rewarded for playing their accounts. Why should they be – they're already being rewarded, so why do you want to add more SP to the mix? Quote: And you make accusations about me feeling entitled because i got more play time that is no different to you feeling entitled to always stay on top with your sp just because you started the game before i did. …and no different than feeling entitled to SP just because you have more time to spare. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:11:00 - [145] You ask to debate and all you can do is ask such as 5 times? And fail to give any real reasons or answers to refute what i said
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:14:00 - [146] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester You ask to debate and all you can do is ask such as 5 times? I have to keep asking it since you keep refusing to answer. Quote: And fail to give any real reasons or answers to refute what i said What you've said has been refuted since page one, with plenty of reasoning behind it. Yet you refuse to discuss those answers and instead keep repeating the same points over and over again, hoping that someone will mistake repetition for argumentation. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:21:00 - [147] I have made my argument many times within this post And as of yet you have failed to tell me how adding a 10% sp bonus to active players while keeping the same offline skill training will make it a grind fest. And you ask why i feel the need to have more sp i say why not If skill points are not that important to you then why is it such a big deal if i gain them 10% faster then you by being more active?
Mari Seles	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:28:00 - [148] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester my main point is no matter what your doing be it in game or irl the person who puts more time and more effort into something should be given greater rewards in every aspect. Funny I would give the guy who does the same thing, in less time and with less effort, more money than the guy who does it in twice the time and working his ass off.
Kijo Rikki Caldari Swarm of Angry Bees	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:28:00 - [149] Specializing SP is more important than raw SP. Had I known this instead of trying to get into battleships as soon as possible I would have focused on smaller ships and support skills. I have almost 8mil SP now and had I not wasted time training all over the place I could be flying every single tech 2 cruiser and could fit all tech 2 as well. As it stands now I'm still waiting on a few support skills to be able to accomplish that, in the meantime I can fly alot of Caldari ships, just not well. Also SP isnt worth jack if you don't have friends, this is not a solo friendly game. It can be done, but depending on where you are you'll wind up getting blobbed more often than not. Furthermore, SP isnt worth jack if you're flying a cormorant and you think you have a shot at downing a Dramiel. Or if the sight of a broadsword waiting on the other side of a gate doesnt immediately concern you. >.> Grinding in this game seems to be more focused on asset acquisition than character development. Your time spent in game is rewarded by wealth (hopefully) Finally, while I like your idea, I am happy with the status quo even being on the low end of the totem pole. It works this way in real life, thats why we all hate competing for open positions against employees with senority.
Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:29:00 - [150] If extra SP is the only benefit you see to spending more hours logged in to the game then you're missing out on a lot of what EVE has to offer. You said yourself that you've been involved in some wars with other corps, the experience in pvp is one thing you've gained along with building up solidarity with corp mates (one would hope). Those that run missions gain ISK, LPs and standing, those that explore wormholes can have significant gains from what they find there. Plus you build up relationships with other players, which can prove invaluable, more so than just an extra bunch of SPs. This is an MMO after all and EVE thrives on the complex web of relationships between its players. All this is made much easier because we don't have to waste our precious game time grinding for SPs like some pig snuffling for truffles like a lot of other games. I've abandoned games because they had the skill grind, the lack of such is what drew me to EVE.

Necronomica Aruchiku Caldari The Real OC Saints Amongst Sinners	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:31:00 - [151] I love the skill-system in EVE. One of the reasons i started playing this game. o/
Ivy Scorn Amarr Nethro Ore Conglomerate	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:32:00 - [152] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester The fact that it's legal to buy isk via plex and buy characters via isk further prove this. No, it just proves that despite all the other flaws EVE has, the developers do have some brains. Unlike all the other fail-RMT implementations found in other games, here the ISK ("gold") actually comes from other players. It's a trade by which no foreign elements enter the gameworld. The only thing that really is added in some way is that another player can play for a month. Now if CCP would only manage to eliminate botting, macromining and account theft, we'd really have a game with little to no grounds for ISK spammers - the holy grail of the MMO industry. But it's understandable how that concept isn't all that easy to grasp, especially as a new whin... player. I'm sure it's also been pointed out before, but as a new player, all you really have to do is group and specialize. If you do it right, you can do anything. As for "never being able to compete", that's just nonsense. You can perfect one area of gameplay pretty quickly. You just can't be a perfect combat pilot with perfect trade and manufacturing skills at the beginning. You'll have to pick one. That's EVE's concept. If that doesn't fly well with you, uh... duh you've excluded that suggestion from your list, so you're pretty much stuck.
Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:37:00 - [153] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester my main point is no matter what your doing be it in game or irl the person who puts more time and more effort into something should be given greater rewards in every aspect. Had it ever occured to you that active gameplay is reward in itself? And I say again (and will get ignored again, probably): any kind of system which you conceive that should reward active players will be abused to hell and back by old, experienced players because they play game and understand mechanics. So you will just widen SP gap. Quote: I do not see it unfit to reward a more active player with something extra considering the less active player can legally buy isk from ccp. Yeah, you can get subscription, buy plexes for money, convert to isk, buy skilled character and items. But... what exactly for? You'll most probably get pwned all the time, frustrated and leave. Quote: And you make accusations about me feeling entitled because i got more play time that is no different to you feeling entitled to always stay on top with your sp just because you started the game before i did. I probably started game after you. However, I enjoy elimination of XP grind and interaction with other players (yeah, solo missioning is boring after a while. Don't do that, then). Sure, I'm little frustrated by the fact that older chars can fly shinier toys, but I will get there, and it doesn't take too much to train to useful fleet role.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:39:00 - [154] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I have made my argument many times within this post And people have shown the fundamental flaws in those arguments and in the misconceptions behind them. You have yet to respond to those posts, rather than just repeating the same refuted points over and over again. Quote: And as of yet you have failed to tell me how adding a 10% sp bonus to active players while keeping the same offline skill training will make it a grind fest. No. See above. Quote: And you ask why i feel the need to have more sp i say why not That's not a reason. That question can be fully answered by "because!" You want the change, so you need to argue why it should happen. Quote: If skill points are not that important to you then why is it such a big deal if i gain them 10% faster then you by being more active? Because it promotes the wrong kind of gameplay. You see, the fundamental problem here seems to be that you assume that "playing the game" is the same as "progressing" and that "progressing" is the same as "earning SP". This is not the case. Unlike most (all?) other MMOs, the point of the game is not to get the next big thing/next level – a fact that coincides with another peculiarity of EVE: that "the next big thing" isn't necessarily better than what you currently have. EVE operates on completely different principles, and it seems your (supposedly extensive) experience with other games have blinded you to these principles. This is EVE. Bigger is not better. There are no levels to strive for. What equivalent there are to "levels" are very shallow. "Catching up" with those levels is very quick and very easy. All of this is because unlocking that bigger thing isn't the point of the game – it's just something that happens while you play the actual game. The actual game is about you (not your character) learning what you want to do and how to do it better, and then going out and doing just that. What "better" consists of is completely arbitrary – it can vary from "most effectively" to "most fun" to "under the most difficult circumstances." Your immediate argument in response to this should be: "my 'better way' of 'playing the game' consists of accumulating the most amount of SP in the least amount of time, and there are no mechanics for this." The counter-argument to this is that, yes there is, but they are also shallow because that's not what CCP want their game to be about… but as a result, it can be pretty much anything but that. If you want that kind of gameplay, I'd suggest ProgressQuest – where being active and grinding for better stats is the only thing the "game" allows. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:40:00 - [155] Originally by: Tarhim I probably started game after you. However, I enjoy elimination of XP grind and interaction with other players (yeah, solo missioning is boring after a while. Don't do that, then). Sure, I'm little frustrated by the fact that older chars can fly shinier toys, but I will get there, and it doesn't take too much to train to useful fleet role. This guy gets it. ~ Soar Like a Penguin
Virgil Travis Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:45:00 - [156] This is obviously the game the OP is looking for http://progressquest.com/
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 16:02:00 - [157] Originally by: Virgil Travis This is obviously the game the OP is looking for http://progressquest.com/ Pff! Too slow Also, my Tickle-Mimic Land Squid is now Level 68, with a Dex score of 5600, a +51 Stabbity Polished Pole-axe as his main weapon, and a Level 579 Slime Finger as his best spell… ph34r! ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.02.10 16:04:00 - [158] old players a re a dieing breed, new plays come ever day. blob of newbs -> handful of oldies.
Riedle Minmatar Raptus Regalitor Black Legion.	Posted - 2010.02.10 16:09:00 - [159] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester You ask to debate and all you can do is ask such as 5 times? And fail to give any real reasons or answers to refute what i said Basically you want to WIN EVE because you can spend 40 hours a week online? No thanks.
lollerwaffle Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE	Posted - 2010.02.10 16:10:00 - [160] Edited by: lollerwaffle on 10/02/2010 16:14:25 Edited by: lollerwaffle on 10/02/2010 16:11:25 Successful troll is successful! 2 points for arrogant whining coupled with extreme ignorance (feigned? Who knows) 1 point for delicious irony dripping in every single post (calling others fail when OP has worst debating skills ever) 1 point for 5+ pages 1 point for using the equivalent of sticking fingers in your ears going 'lalalala' type of argument 1 bonus for consistently doing it, not addressing a single argument against along the way 2 points for somehow managing to get every single person in this thread to have a go at you (not a single one agrees with OP, how weird is that? ) 1 point for somehow equating selling plexes and buying characters as 'cheating' 1 point for alt posting (0.5 bonus for displaying ultimate lack of gonads) 1 bonus point for playing the 'I'm better than you, cos you're a loser and I'm not' card 1 more bonus point for claiming 'I have OVER 9000 years of experience in other games 0.5 bonus on top of that for mentioning WOW and Lineage 2 and wanting EVE to be like those games All in all, I award the OP an unprecedented (?) 13/10 for trolling effort. Well done. Now if everyone would be so kind as to recognize this and someone give the OP a medal. In case this is genuine, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Props for an entertaining read! How sad must it be to equate SP with reward and derive your enjoyment of the game from that. Also: My alliance KB (Not peen stroking btw, just illustrating how high SP doesn't automatically equal win. Anyone who takes offense, 1v1? ) Note that the top killer (and top scorer, damn u Mr. Hellscream wait till I get more time on my hands) in our alliance is also one of the youngest pilots we have. Late '08 as opposed to most of us who started playing in 05/06/07 Still, 13/10 for score and having it go more than 5 pages is a pretty sweet accomplishment. e:spellin n grammar e2: Threadnaught killed hamsters and server died (according to forums). 3 bonus points to OP for griefing even the hamsters with this thread (new score 16/10, indeed a new record is broken everyday in EVE) Originally by: salva dore Cloak should not be AFK solution. What do you think? Originally by: AFK Cloaker

Gwendion Gallente Bladed Moon	Posted - 2010.02.10 16:11:00 - [161] Edited by: Gwendion on 10/02/2010 16:12:40 Originally by: Sjoor I agree with the op. Every 100 npc kills you should get 1 million SP to freely distribute at your own. Every 1000 kills a free hac of choice. every 10000 kills a free capital ship of choice. every 100000 kills a titan of choice for free. That redeem items button is not there for nothing. CCP use it already. This is a terrible idea. I'm currently grinding standings with 2 accounts, and I easily get through 1000 NPC kills/day. No. Just no. ----------------- To The OP: Most of what I have to say has been said, however Its like this. Skills don't make the player. The player makes the player. You can be more effective with experience (real experience) than straight up SPs. Focus on something, get good at it, then move on. Thats what we did, just longer. -----------------------------------
Tason Hyena Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.10 16:14:00 - [162] I think that the skill system does suck, but mostly because: 1. You can only advance your character through making ISK by your own effort. It gets dull quickly, and leads to a lot of waiting. You can even avoid spending time for that at all through buying a character and buying plex. 2. Specialization sucks for a new player, since you often need different ship sizes and types to do different roles. You also have to put time in the basics of combat before you can specialize, because vets will have 5s in much of the core skills. The current skill system is very hands off, and leads to a lot of time doing very little. I miss working with others to meaningfully advance my character at times.
Craminu Gallente Viking Research and Production	Posted - 2010.02.10 16:20:00 - [163] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Also about specializations as a caldari pilot say im using a Drake I would need Hams for pvp and reg heavy for pve thats two dif specialization skills not to mention everyone i talk to is telling me As Caldari if i want to pvp im better off cross training to a dif race ship. so what choices do i have? I either forced to make due with what caldari has to offer or cross train hence hindering my specialization or making a new toon i have pvped for years with heavy missiles. and still not using hams. worked fine with me. beside all skills have an max level 5. so it is very possible to also catch up to older players very fast. Eve skill system is also what attracts typical eve players to the game. for you that have no life outside game and play insanly much. do missions. be an billioner and once you got so much isk, you will have learned alot of combat in eve and skilled for pvp while you do it. Then you can pew pew for **** load of time with all the isk you made. i would say that is an advantage you have over causual players. Not evryone here can afford to buy plex and sell for isk, or want todo it. So theese players need to run missions first. then go pew pew, witch you will do more then them, make more isk and pew pew more. So players who play alot do get an bonus, just not in skill points. And as 90%(give or take) of players will tell you, skill point sin eve isent all, and all levels have max lvl 5!!! Ive lost to "worse" skilled pvp charecters then myself, just because they were better in pvp then me. Keep up the skilling, do missions etc make isk. be billioner asap. and gl in eve. Viking Research bpc sale
Caesar DeSahar	Posted - 2010.02.10 16:35:00 - [164] Hi Chesterr, When I started playing this game a couple of years ago I was worried about the same issue, that I'll never catch up with the high SP players. Now I can tell you this, I have killed players with 70m SP + when I had barely 5m skill points; but I did that with groups of other players! and solo I have killed high SP players when I had 10m SP, how? there are a few things you should keep in mind: 1- no player can use all his SP when flying a single ship, a 100m SP player flying a hac would be using max 10m SP. 2- I can easily say that 50% of the skill points of 80m SP+ pilots are only small differences, for example Large Pulse laser Spec V, which takes 35-45 days and only gives 2% more damage only with Large pulse lasers. 3- Player skill and tactics are very relevant, in a 2v2 fight of small vs old players, it all depends on the setup, if they have 2 hacs and you bring hac + falcon, you win! if they bring capacitor based ship (amarr/gallente) and you bring 1 curse (amarr recon that neutralizes capacitor) you win, and countless other setups. 4- when a gang needs an interceptor pilot, it doesn't matter if he has 80m SP or 4m SP as long as he can fit it properly and knows how to use it. at 4m SP you can easily do that. Now, a high SP player still has some advantages and versatility, but this is not a very solo game, you can go solo PVP at 10m SP, just fly a pilgrim, curse or vagabond and do very well, it depends on your patience and skill. 5- if you didn't know that, you can actually BUY a high skill points character if you have enough game currency -isk! So if you insist on having a high skill pilot, make a lot of isk, and/or buy a lot of GTCs if you're rich IRL and you can buy a high skill points character! I would advice you to start an alternative character and train him for probing, hauling, and flying a falcon if you want to go solo a lot. most players have 3-4 accounts depending on what they need. I for example have an alt that does probing/falcon for me when I need it, and another one that hauls stuff(ships/modules...etc) to my main character and I am training a capital ships alt now. You don't have to do that of course, 2 accounts are more than enough for most players, but you can do with 1. Bottom line is, don't worry about SP that much, in 1 year you'll have no problem fighting most players, you can start with an interceptor in 2 months and go into the hardest battles already; you have so many options, this is an awesome game. You can convo me any time in game if you need something, I sense you have some potential, some potential, I might have some interesting things for you. 07 Caesar.
T'Karr Minmatar Quam Singulari Session Changes	Posted - 2010.02.10 16:38:00 - [165] Chester, i think you need longer than a month to understand how eve reely works.
Mr Ignitious The Scope	Posted - 2010.02.10 16:41:00 - [166] Question for you OP: If SP is the crucial, defining factor of any prosauce leet pvper, then how the ** is rico felix of the privateers ranked 8th on battleclinic? By your theology a 2008 player should be getting his ass whipped by all those mean 06's and 07's. I started early 2007? I think I don't know. I can tell you I can curb stomp plenty of people that are from 04 even. Hell, where's chribba? I bet I could beat him in a fight since I don't float like a veldspar. (No offense chribba - I'm just trying to prove a point for this guy) I bet even your 1 month old char could beat a year old char that specced in trade. Do you think that 7 mil of SP invested in trade makes them a threat somehow? Or how about when I'm in my zealot, does my 7 mil in drones, 4 mil approx in gallente ship comm, 3-4 mil in hybrid guns matter? No. If you, right now chester, max out all relative skills to a jaguar or wolf or ishkur and I went to fight you in my choice of frigate you would likely womp me. Better yet, tell me you want to 1v1 me in your best ship and then spring a trap and bring 20 of your friends! That's just as big of a strategy - baiting your opponent through your own wit. The parameters of combat in eve are not defined and you can fight however cheap and nasty as you'd like. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by:** CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
d3vo Isotope Laboratories	Posted - 2010.02.10 17:00:00 - [167] Edited by: d3vo on 10/02/2010 16:59:50 Why are players whining so much these days? It's really annoying. ch33rs
Naomi Wildfire Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.02.10 17:03:00 - [168] New players CAN catch up with old players ... once they ran out of skills to learn after >20 years
Absolom Hues Gallente Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2010.02.10 17:11:00 - [169] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester my main point is no matter what your doing be it in game or irl the person who puts more time and more effort into something should be given greater rewards in every aspect.... ...I do not see it unfit to reward a more active player with something extra considering the less active player can legally buy isk from ccp.... I have never purchased isk, nor have I ever run more than one account.... but in my opinion If someone is legally purchasing isk, his real money for isk is also a representation of the time invested in eve. I think of it this way: Many of us spend time at our work and are compensated with wages. If one then chooses to spend wages to buy isk he is trading a portion of his time for game isk. If you choose to trade actual time (grinding) for isk, then that is your option. Why should one way be rewarded or favored (with skill points) over another? When you wrote: Originally by: Chesterr theMolester If anything you would most likely see more active people on line and also see an increase of how long accounts stay active. I believe that giving extra rewards for grinding would have the oposite effect and the game would loose accounts. CCP must have something corrct with EVE since activity has more than doubled in the last 3 years. _______ Originally by: "Andracin" "you must realize the truth...there is no ship...then you will find that it is not the ship you fly that sucks...it is yourself..."
RuleoftheBone Minmatar The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.10 17:20:00 - [170] Oh look i can fly only one ship at a time OP is baffling p.s. lol OP :awesemoprotroll: p.p.s. :propostingfrompsp:

Sturmwolke	Posted - 2010.02.10 17:33:00 - [171] Originally by: lollerwaffle All in all, I award the OP an unprecedented (?) 13/10 for trolling effort. Nahhh! I'd put -5 penalty for using a lolwtf name. It isn't that hard to think of a semi-decent noobie non-obvious name. So my score is 8/10. All the rest of the stuffs is spot on however.
Awesome Possum	Posted - 2010.02.10 17:38:00 - [172] Originally by: Gladys Pank Suspiciously trolly name but whatever... Make lots of isk Buy a higher sp character Fail at eve anyway because the important thing is skill, knowledge and connections not skill points you get me so horny when you use logic in a troll post and troll in a logic post ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.10 17:42:00 - [173] Originally by: Awesome Possum Originally by: Gladys Pank Suspiciously trolly name but whatever... Make lots of isk Buy a higher sp character Fail at eve anyway because the important thing is skill, knowledge and connections not skill points you get me so horny when you use logic in a troll post and troll in a logic post I've quit shiptoasting tbh. ~ Soar Like a Penguin
Ana Vyr	Posted - 2010.02.10 17:53:00 - [174] The skill system in eve is unique and it's a large part of what differentiates EvE from other MMO's. There are many things I'd change about EvE, but this is not one of those things. I love the fact that you don't have to waste your life playing to have continual character progression. You can spend your time in game actually playing to have fun as opposed to constantly grinding for advancement. Your gameplay experience in EvE is not entirely dictated by what you have to do to advance your class the next step. Think about what you have to do in WoW...you have to run XYZ dailies to get ABC tokens to buy EFG gear bit that gets your gear score high enough to run raid JKL for RST tokens to buy GHI gear bit so you can advance to...etc etc. EvE is not like that at all. Aside from aquiring ISK to advance your character's goals (there are vastly different ways to go about this), when you log into EvE, you can do whatever you want and it has NO bearing on your character advancement.
digitalwanderer Gallente DF0 incorporated	Posted - 2010.02.10 18:16:00 - [175] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester my main point is no matter what your doing be it in game or irl the person who puts more time and more effort into something should be given greater rewards in every aspect. People say you get more skill and more ISK by playing more while this is true in some respect i am sure it's not true it all cases. I do not see it unfit to reward a more active player with something extra considering the less active player can legally buy isk from ccp. Changing the system to have more of a sp gain bonus to active players does not change it to a grind game, you will gain you sp while offline at the current rate but at least the more active players are better rewarded for playing their accounts. So please explain how making this type of change will turn this into grind fest? If anything you would most likely see more active people on line and also see an increase of how long accounts stay active. And you make accusations about me feeling entitled because i got more play time that is no different to you feeling entitled to always stay on top with your sp just because you started the game before i did. It wouldn't matter in most cases if you're comparing to a much older char that has been playing for years,no matter how many hours you put in the game,as their lead in far too great to catch up to anyhow...Case in point,me http://eveboard.com/pilot/digitalwanderer As you can see,i'm primarily a combat pilot,and soon enough,having the ability to fly everything in game and already have about 110 skills at lvl 5,some of which take a huge amount of time to get there(capital ships lvl 5,carrier lvl 5,etc..),so i can see your point if the idea is to get closer to chars that are 1 or 2 years older than you by being a lot more active,but as far as catching up to the most veteran players out there,their lead is simply too great,no matter how much you played the game. Heck as it is,i'm already running out of skills i want to train up,so CCP better get more T3 skills and ships into the game Soon.
lollerwaffle Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE	Posted - 2010.02.10 18:42:00 - [176] Originally by: digitalwanderer http://eveboard.com/pilot/digitalwanderer I'm dead jealous How long have you been playing for, and have you had skills training the whole time? Originally by: salva dore Cloak should not be AFK solution. What do you think? Originally by: AFK Cloaker
Jhonas Riddick Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.10 19:00:00 - [177] Most of this thread is tasty failsauce, as has been pointed out by others it's been discussed to death already, so I'm not going to bother re-iterating, but this made me laugh... Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Yes i lash out at people telling me to buy isk and characters. I don't care if that is CCP approved or not, its CHEATING . That, for someone who claims to have as much MMO experience as any three existing players put together, sounds like a childs whining. It's also extremely arrogant. Cheating is, roughly, defined as breaking The Rules. I hesitate to point this out to someone with your extensive MMO experience but you don't write The Rules for EVE, CCP do. They say it's ok, and provide a mechanism for doing so, so it's not breaking The Rules and therefore, not cheating. I could have understood if you'd said "It feels like people with real-life money can buy their way ahead", or maybe "My personal opinion is that it is wrong for someone to be able to buy isk, or a character that they haven't put the work into." I can understand the sentiment, but it is not cheating to do something that is allowed by The Rules. Please try not to confuse your personal opinion with fact.
digitalwanderer Gallente DF0 incorporated	Posted - 2010.02.10 19:15:00 - [178] Edited by: digitalwanderer on 10/02/2010 19:17:02 Originally by: lollerwaffle Originally by: digitalwanderer http://eveboard.com/pilot/digitalwanderer I'm dead jealous How long have you been playing for, and have you had skills training the whole time? Since late july 2003 and training non stop since then,as i'm the original owner if this char,and i'm ready for T3 frigates,destroyers,battlecruisers and battleships for all races,but who knows when CCP are going to release those. About the only major objective left is training all 4 titan skills which i can do right away,but i'm still making the 20 billion isk for those 4 skills.
Meredith Midnight	Posted - 2010.02.10 19:17:00 - [179] I had similar notions to the OP myself (troll or not) when I started as a trial-er. But its not just an SP advantage. It's a knowledge advantage. They know how to fit their ships, they know the best opportunities to gank, and they've had time to network with others, and train for fleet operations, so they probably have more friends shooting at you than you have at them. (good luck getting into a good corp as a trial-er and not knowing any better). So, not only does the veteran have a stat advantage (especially when it comes to support skills involving cap, targeting speed and gunnery/missiles), they know when you're at your weakest (usually at the spawn point or in a mission), and they're versatile enough to fly the rock to your scissors. (I think people undervalue versatility when arguing that specialization allows you to 'catch up'). In this framework, its true: i've never 'caught up'. I've come close to closing the knowledge gap, and i'll never be as versatile as the more experienced. But it's whatever, you either stop caring or you move on to an MMO where you can catch up. /Also, the skill queue is all kinds of effed up. the 'learning' category needs to be done with, core skills that are applicable to all ships (like energy management) should just be applied so that specialization starting out doesn't take so damn long.
Demolishar	Posted - 2010.02.10 19:25:00 - [180] To everyone saying "specialise", I did. I picked a ship within about a month of starting EVE and trained nothing but applicable skills for it. And now, 7 months later, I can fly a Curse..... really, really badly. So STFU about specialisation because it takes forever to specialise.

haulindude Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.02.10 19:25:00 - [181] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester my main point is no matter what your doing be it in game or irl the person who puts more time and more effort into something should be given greater rewards in every aspect. People say you get more skill and more ISK by playing more while this is true in some respect i am sure it's not true it all cases. I do not see it unfit to reward a more active player with something extra considering the less active player can legally buy isk from ccp. Changing the system to have more of a sp gain bonus to active players does not change it to a grind game, you will gain you sp while offline at the current rate but at least the more active players are better rewarded for playing their accounts. So please explain how making this type of change will turn this into grind fest? If anything you would most likely see more active people on line and also see an increase of how long accounts stay active. And you make accusations about me feeling entitled because i got more play time that is no different to you feeling entitled to always stay on top with your sp just because you started the game before i did. What I find funny is that you want a reward for spending 40+ hrs in a game. You bragging about more play time is like saying I have no life. Why should CCP reward you for play time? We all pay to play this game. Because you have no life and therefore more play time you want a reward??? My suggestion to you would be get out get some sunshine and then hit the pubs\bars and make some friends and reek the rewards of friends before you start complaining about rewards for playing a game.... Also age of character does not mean they have more skill points. Like my alts I created years back that have only default SP. I will use him to POD you repetively if you have the gonads to reveal your main.
Iaoth	Posted - 2010.02.10 19:26:00 - [182] Originally by: digitalwanderer Edited by: digitalwanderer on 10/02/2010 19:17:02 Originally by: lollerwaffle Originally by: digitalwanderer http://eveboard.com/pilot/digitalwanderer I'm dead jealous How long have you been playing for, and have you had skills training the whole time? Since late july 2003 and training non stop since then,as i'm the original owner if this char,and i'm ready for T3 frigates,destroyers,battlecruisers and battleships for all races,but who knows when CCP are going to release those. About the only major objective left is training all 4 titan skills which i can do right away,but i'm still making the 20 billion isk for those 4 skills. I see quite a few ships, aside from the 4 titans, that you can not yet fly..................
Kijo Rikki Caldari Swarm of Angry Bees	Posted - 2010.02.10 19:30:00 - [183] Originally by: Demolishar To everyone saying "specialise", I did. I picked a ship within about a month of starting EVE and trained nothing but applicable skills for it. And now, 7 months later, I can fly a Curse..... really, really badly. So STFU about specialisation because it takes forever to specialise. Wow, you went after a tech2 recon ship first? Why not aim to tech2 fit a t1 frig/cruiser before worrying about the overly expensive toys. Admittedly I'm a hypocrite as I went after battleships first....alas, thats only one reason why I suck.
Doccia Ellicis Caldari Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.10 19:46:00 - [184] Originally by: Nefrin Maldoes Originally by: Chesterr theMolester ...two they revamp it in some way to allow players like my self to at least catch up a little to vet players in SP so I can use the better ships and tech 2 equips... Originally by: Chesterr theMolester ... been through 3 war decs from griever corps and ive been active out in the field every day these guys are fielding tech twos and faction ammo on every war dec i've gotten my fair share of kills and i have yet to lose a ship this entire time. and no i wasn't playing lame docking games and orbiting station i been out in the field. You've just proven that you don't need to "catch up" in order to be effective in the game (if what you say is true), so what is your argument again? You seem to have missed this. /thread, tbh. Debate is no longer necessary. He has already conceded to our points on page 4.
Yuki Kulotsuki	Posted - 2010.02.10 20:05:00 - [185] Originally by: Demolishar To everyone saying "specialise", I did. I picked a ship within about a month of starting EVE and trained nothing but applicable skills for it. And now, 7 months later, I can fly a Curse..... really, really badly. So STFU about specialisation because it takes forever to specialise. I saw that thread. I seem to remember it had more to do with your pilot skills than your SP. Link. Also T2 Cruiser specialization is about on par with battleship specialization. About a years worth of training. Other specialization's are easier to acquire. A friend of mine started playing about a month ago and makes more isk than I ever did because he enjoys scanning out sites. This character was able to specialize into a career with 850k SP, made plenty of isk and had quite a bit of fun. In both cases we were having fun without a need for certain kinds of ships or SP amounts. Just enough SP to get in the door and start doing. Originally by: CCP Lemur THIS IS GOD: ... IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE REQUESTS I'M AVAILABLE SUNDAY FROM 10:30 TO 12:00 TO RECEIVE YOUR PRAYERS.
lollerwaffle Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE	Posted - 2010.02.10 20:11:00 - [186] Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki Originally by: Demolishar To everyone saying "specialise", I did. I picked a ship within about a month of starting EVE and trained nothing but applicable skills for it. And now, 7 months later, I can fly a Curse..... really, really badly. So STFU about specialisation because it takes forever to specialise. I saw that thread. I seem to remember it had more to do with your pilot skills than your SP. Link. Also T2 Cruiser specialization is about on par with battleship specialization. About a years worth of training. Other specialization's are easier to acquire. A friend of mine started playing about a month ago and makes more isk than I ever did because he enjoys scanning out sites. This character was able to specialize into a career with 850k SP, made plenty of isk and had quite a bit of fun. In both cases we were having fun without a need for certain kinds of ships or SP amounts. Just enough SP to get in the door and start doing. Haha pwnt. Learn to fly your ship. Being able to sit in a ship doesnt mean you can fly it well. That's why the advice of specialization is thrown out. That means what it means, SPECIALIZE. Specializing means being able to pilot a ship well. Not just train up skills for it, hop into it and not know what you're doing. Originally by: salva dore Cloak should not be AFK solution. What do you think? Originally by: AFK Cloaker
Grath Telkin Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.02.10 20:37:00 - [187] I am fing amazed this guy got people going this many pages.
Zhul Chembull	Posted - 2010.02.10 21:13:00 - [188] To the original poster...just stick in there buddy if you specialize you will be up on most of us old veteran players returning. You also have to realize that if you can get the right implants and specialize in one particular lones of ship, learn it like an expert, you will blow us old players away. Just because we have been around awhile doesn't necessarily mean we know what the heck we are doing =) Anyhow nice to see the game kicking still and going strong, just resubbed today. V/R, Zhul
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2010.02.10 21:15:00 - [189] you are supposed to be an adult so stop whining about life's unfairness.
Kyra Felann Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.10 21:21:00 - [190] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 10/02/2010 05:31:27 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester we will never catch up in skill points sure we will catch up in player skill in time but since equips are based on time lots and lots of time the older player will always have the ability to fit his ship better. Pick a ship. Or an activity. Any ship, any activity. Now list all skills that can possibly have an influence on the effectiveness of what you chose to perform. Total up all the skillpoints needed to get all those skills to L5. You will notice it's a finite number, and not really such a huge number. Now, recalculate the same thing, but this time, only put all related skills to L4, with L5s only where they are prerequisites or absolutely necessary for the proper performance of your chosen activity. Not only will you notice that the SP total has drastically gone down, but that your actual performance isn't THAT much lower (since most of the higher-rank skills have the least overall effect). And now, ask some (much) older players if THEY have their skills trained above those levels. You'll be surprised to hear just how few actually do. SP total doesn't necessarily make you MUCH BETTER. It does however almost always make you MORE VERSATILE. Long story short, if you specialize, in your chosen field, you can become an expert in a relatively short amount of time, and above average surprisingly fast. In a game where 10 experienced pilots flying a 1-month-old characters can beat 20 disorganized rookie pilots with purchased high-SP characters, or where 10 well-organized newbies led by one experienced pilot can easily obliterate 5 experienced pilots on much higher SP characters that didn't bail out in time... SP count doesn't matter anywhere near as much as you seem to think it does. I was going to reply to this effect, but I really couldn't have said it much better. I started about two years ago, so I'm not a newbie, but there are plenty of people that have been playing for longer than I, and I've never really felt like I couldn't compete with them.

Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.10 21:37:00 - [191] Originally by: lollerwaffle Successful troll is successful! 2 points for arrogant whining coupled with extreme ignorance (feigned? Who knows) 1 point for delicious irony dripping in every single post (calling others fail when OP has worst debating skills ever) 1 point for 5+ pages 1 point for using the equivalent of sticking fingers in your ears going 'lalalala' type of argument 1 bonus for consistently doing it, not addressing a single argument against along the way 2 points for somehow managing to get every single person in this thread to have a go at you (not a single one agrees with OP, how weird is that? ) 1 point for somehow equating selling plexes and buying characters as 'cheating' 1 point for alt posting (0.5 bonus for displaying ultimate lack of gonads) 1 bonus point for playing the 'I'm better than you, cos you're a loser and I'm not' card 1 more bonus point for claiming 'I have OVER 9000 years of experience in other games 0.5 bonus on top of that for mentioning WOW and Lineage 2 and wanting EVE to be like those games All in all, I award the OP an unprecedented (?) 13/10 for trolling effort. Well done. Now if everyone would be so kind as to recognize this and someone give the OP a medal. [...] e2: Threadnaught killed hamsters and server died (according to forums). 3 bonus points to OP for griefing even the hamsters with this thread (new score 16/10, indeed a new record is broken everyday in EVE) Word _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
digitalwanderer Gallente DF0 incorporated	Posted - 2010.02.10 21:51:00 - [192] Originally by: Iaoth Originally by: digitalwanderer Edited by: digitalwanderer on 10/02/2010 19:17:02 Originally by: lollerwaffle Originally by: digitalwanderer http://eveboard.com/pilot/digitalwanderer I'm dead jealous How long have you been playing for, and have you had skills training the whole time? Since late july 2003 and training non stop since then,as i'm the original owner if this char,and i'm ready for T3 frigates,destroyers,battlecruisers and battleships for all races,but who knows when CCP are going to release those. About the only major objective left is training all 4 titan skills which i can do right away,but i'm still making the 20 billion isk for those 4 skills. I see quite a few ships, aside from the 4 titans, that you can not yet fly.................. 3 freighters races and 3 carriers....Oh and exhumers of course,would need astrogeology 5 for that one.. So out of 230 odd ships in game,i can fly 215+ ships,and it isn't the ability to simply undock them either...
Virgil Travis Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.10 22:01:00 - [193] Originally by: digitalwanderer 3 freighters races and 3 carriers....Oh and exhumers of course,would need astrogeology 5 for that one.. So out of 230 odd ships in game,i can fly 215+ ships,and it isn't the ability to simply undock them either... And in some ways this is one of the disadvantages of having really high SPs, you get to the point where you're running out of things to train, unless you train for ships you may never fly. I still have so many things to train for and I enjoy considering the options as my SPs build up. One thing I might consider in this situation is training one of the alt chars while I waited for CCP to release new interesting shinies and the associated skills.
MrBinary Minmatar Binary Systems	Posted - 2010.02.10 22:10:00 - [194] OP...you think it's unfair to have to "put your time in" to be able to play with the vets? First of all...EvE has become way more accessable to the new player than it was years ago so count your blessings imho. Second... The vets put their time in...as should you; if you yourself want to achieve what they have. EvE is not about easy progression. With the exception of cheaters, no one gets a free ride. It is fair...and no...you shouldn't stand a chance against a vet. There are lots and lots of targets in EvE...engage in fights you are in balance with. See a hostile vet coming at you? Use your brain and GTFO of Dodge real fast. "[ 2004.05.20 20:11:42 ] Hodal Xibur > Die MrBinary"
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 22:36:00 - [195] Originally by: Virgil Travis Originally by: digitalwanderer 3 freighters races and 3 carriers....Oh and exhumers of course,would need astrogeology 5 for that one.. So out of 230 odd ships in game,i can fly 215+ ships,and it isn't the ability to simply undock them either... And in some ways this is one of the disadvantages of having really high SPs, you get to the point where you're running out of things to train, unless you train for ships you may never fly. I still have so many things to train for and I enjoy considering the options as my SPs build up. One thing I might consider in this situation is training one of the alt chars while I waited for CCP to release new interesting shinies and the associated skills. And this is the beauty of EVE: you don't even have to go to these extremes. In December, Tippia will be 3 years old. By then, I will be able to fly every ship I ever intend to fly and use every piece of equipment I ever intend to fit to those ships. I have no idea atm where I'll go from there. It'll be fun to find out, though… And yet, by then, "catching up" to the ~60mil SP I'll have (give or take, depending on implant loss and flying clean clones and all that) will be very very easy. It would take some 400,000 SP for a completely new character – that's what? a week or two of training? – to be be able to do more than what I'll be able to do 10 months from now. Catching up is such an obsolete concept. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Tesco Yogurt	Posted - 2010.02.10 23:14:00 - [196] This thread isn't complete without some intentionally antagonistic posting by Nooma and Elena. It's ok, you can come out from under the bridge guys, we're expecting you.
Klyde The Nightshift	Posted - 2010.02.10 23:33:00 - [197] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Yet all of you are fine with being rewarded for not even logging into the game and as far as fitting an expensive ship jee ill load up battle clinic and find my self a fit because that takes zomg so much leet skills. And yes buying into isk and characters is damn cheating keep lying to your self if you must and that's what makes you feel better about cheating your way though a game fine. And to all the wow talk i quit wow after 5 years of playing and 6 lvl 80s (4 of them in icc 10/25 gear) because it was to damn easy. Want Skill trying playing lineage 2 for 6 years or ultima online in fel for 9 years and come talk to me about skill. Where you can't replace your what you have lost buy logging onto the games web site and buying in game money (cheating) I would be willing to bet i got more MMO exp than any three of you people combined. So yes i do have an understanding of game mechanics no matter what game it is. A game that rewards its players for not even playing the game and getting people to think its this super complex uber hard core game while mildly difficult yes but no means a super hard core game. It is no more a game of dedication and rewarding lazy people who cry about players like my self given to option to gain some extra sp bonus and not wanting to cheat my way into a game by buying isk and a character. No matter what you say or think someone who plays more should be rewarded more in every aspect of the game or anything else he or she does for that matter. If someone puts the damn time into it they deserve a greater out come and if you think otherwise im pretty sure you think this way in real life hence the reason you're at a dead end job and can't afford to put 40 + hours ito recreation like i can. I work for what i have and damn well deserve greater rewards for putting in greater amount of effort and time. SO take you own advise and HTFU I think the problem here is this is your veiws on how a MMO/game should be played and not how the game is. I do don't have issues with your beliefs but you have to understand that because you see things a certain why does not mean it should be this way. You either accept the game the way it is and use the options offered to better yourself or you don't. Your comments on what is cheating and what is not, did you use mods in wow?> 99% of the ppl playing there do, makes things easier and all, I played wow, when i got there i thought even looking up a quest on thottbot was a cheat. Over time i relaxed a bit and figured out that there were ways to make things easier, DBM, healbot, questhelper etc. (I still have an active WoW account and also have 6 lvl 80's) Anyway my point is this, if you want to play this game that's great, if you want to play a game the way you see a game should be then you can either design one or move to one that is of your liking. Fly safe P.S. Training time and playing this game are two seperate things.
digitalwanderer Gallente DF0 incorporated	Posted - 2010.02.11 00:28:00 - [198] Edited by: digitalwanderer on 11/02/2010 00:31:34 Originally by: Virgil Travis Originally by: digitalwanderer 3 freighters races and 3 carriers....Oh and exhumers of course,would need astrogeology 5 for that one.. So out of 230 odd ships in game,i can fly 215+ ships,and it isn't the ability to simply undock them either... And in some ways this is one of the disadvantages of having really high SPs, you get to the point where you're running out of things to train, unless you train for ships you may never fly. I still have so many things to train for and I enjoy considering the options as my SPs build up. One thing I might consider in this situation is training one of the alt chars while I waited for CCP to release new interesting shinies and the associated skills. Has it's up's and downs really,since while you're right that i am running out of stuff to train,i'm also pretty much nerf/balance proof since i can fly all the races,and can adapt to every possible situation since i'm not completely commited to a single race,as well as soon enough,completely ditching atribute implants since i have no use for them at all,so that makes PVP cheaper if nothing else. Not to mention that on a 1 for 1 basis,i can make a ship setup work extremely well using just standard T2 gear,while a lesser trained pilot would have to use faction or even officer gear to match or even beat what i can accomplish using just T2 items,which is obviously a bonus as well. But what i am is mostly ****ed right now,since while i have no problems with CCP making the game easier and more popular with recent players,as it comes down to more money for them obviously,don't forget the veteran players as well,as it's not just me that's getting pretty close to a training wall in certain areas within the game,but others as well...The people who've been with this game from the very start,when it was way buggier,crashed several times a day,and was no where near balanced at anything,and pilots made no where near as much isk as they can now,or trained skills as fast as they can now....Eve was hardcore back then,now it's just too easy,and yet pilots still complain. So with that in mind,how about releasing more T3 ships and even start releasing T3 modules as well..It's about time it started,and no,i don't mean just T3 cruisers either.
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp.	Posted - 2010.02.11 01:15:00 - [199] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Originally by: Sista Jaxx I can't remember if there was even another player that was supporting the idea of the OP. If no one has shared my same idea why has my entire post been riddled with people saying not this debate again? I suspect Sista was referring specifically to this thread. The reason we're all groaning "not again" is because, shockingly, you're not the first person in 6.5 years to make these sorts of suggestions and have them shot down. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Changing the system to have more of a sp gain bonus to active players does not change it to a grind game, you will gain you sp while offline at the current rate but at least the more active players are better rewarded for playing their accounts. So please explain how making this type of change will turn this into grind fest? If anything you would most likely see more active people on line and also see an increase of how long accounts stay active. If you are proposing that SP gain is increased simply by staying online, everyone would just stay online but be AFK. That does nothing except foster unnecessary lag. If you are proposing that SP gain is increased on the basis of performing certain activities, then people will do more of those activities, including employing the use of macros where possible. The game as a result becomes less of an open-ended fun environment and more of a linear... grind fest. We are already seeing this in the game to some degree with missions. People run missions over and over for no reason other than to accumulate isk. They are regarding isk just as you are regarding SP. This is why mission runners are often held by others in a lower regard, because they are treating Eve as a grind instead of just playing for fun at their own pace, in their own time. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester And you make accusations about me feeling entitled because i got more play time that is no different to you feeling entitled to always stay on top with your sp just because you started the game before i did. Except SP matter less the more you have. The SP advantage I have over you approaches zero with each passing day. How do you not comprehend this? Originally by: Chesterr theMolester And you ask why i feel the need to have more sp i say why not The burden is on you to back up your suggestion since you raised it, not the other way around. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester If skill points are not that important to you then why is it such a big deal if i gain them 10% faster then you by being more active? Because I can just do the same activities you do in order to increase my SP gain as well. If everyone can do it, then everyone will do it. The net effect of one player's SP relative to another is no change, and the effect of the game environment would in fact be a negative one by encouraging more grind in this way. And that is why your suggestion fails. /Ben
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2010.02.11 01:52:00 - [200] Originally by: Grath Telkin I am fing amazed this guy got people going this many pages. me too it's like a minithreadnaught sprung up overnight _____________________ Horrors! Demons in the deep!

Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.11 03:57:00 - [201] First of all this toon was made to locate WT's hence the name "mole" eh i thought it was semi clever. And to the effect of threatening to pod me is why I'm posting on an alt. I guess my biggest issue of specializing on a new character is there are a lot of gaps to be filled if i was to ever make a 2nd account i could see specialization to be very very effective. Let me explain why i say what i say about the gaps as a new player if i want to be a pvp pilot i need to specialize according to what i gather from the replies to me. How ever specialization takes lots and lots of money just on books alone say nothing about the fittings so hence i am side tracked to go make money in an other fashion. So i trained up to use a retriever for mining to make isk to buy books. And it is in my personal option that buying isk in my personal view is cheating. Also as you can see from this thread many many people are not as helpful as others to the people who posted positive helpful info thank you and to the people who attempted to flame me you did nothing but waste a lot of space and time reading what you had to say and to this effect if i am a troll for posting this your just as much of a troll for flaming threads. I guess i would not be as upset at the current system if they didn't play out this whole giant "sand box" they flaunt the game to be. Perhaps they should say this Game is a empty box and over the course of a long time you fill it up with sand then your options are opened up much much more. SO on a recap while on one hand i can see the huge benefit of specialization in one type of ship / tank / dps on the other specialization is a terrible option for a new player as it leave many gaps that can not be over come unless your on a 2nd account or isk buyer.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.11 04:02:00 - [202] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester How ever specialization takes lots and lots of money just on books alone say nothing about the fittings so hence i am side tracked to go make money in an other fashion. Define "lots and lots of money". Is it 10 mil ISK ? 50 mil ISK ? 100 mil ISK ? 500 mil ISK ? Quote: So i trained up to use a retriever for mining to make isk to buy books. How about you train for a Caracal and run L2 missions instead ? You make more money, you get standings which will enable better agent access sooner or later and also reduce broker fees. Also, skills trained will be useful in most part for PvP too. Quote: And it is in my personal option that buying isk in my personal view is cheating. The only thing that matters is official CCP position. If you personally consider that cheating, feel free to NOT cheat and "hunt down" those that in your opinion "cheat", if it makes you feel better. Just don't try to shove your opinion as "more valid" than everybody else's, especially CCP's. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.11 04:07:00 - [203] well as a new player having to dish out 4.5 mil per learning book hits my pockets pretty hard not to mention having to buy a new book for every skill. And back to the isk buying and CCP just because ccp says its right doesn't make it so and this is something that we can get into at a later time in a different location if you wish but this isn't the place for it here. And following everything i say or ask with a question is not proving any valid points.
Mr Ignitious The Scope	Posted - 2010.02.11 04:27:00 - [204] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester well as a new player having to dish out 4.5 mil per learning book hits my pockets pretty hard not to mention having to buy a new book for every skill. And back to the isk buying and CCP just because ccp says its right doesn't make it so and this is something that we can get into at a later time in a different location if you wish but this isn't the place for it here. And following everything i say or ask with a question is not proving any valid points. Actually if CCP says something is ok in their game, it's ok - there is nothing you can do about it. It's like the guy who whined in the help channel about getting killed in his hulk in low sec by a battleship. The guy thought it wasn't fair that his ship couldn't fight back and wanted the battleship pilot banned. The GM told him too bad, hard lesson learned - the guy proceeded to threaten CCP with a law(l) suit. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.11 04:31:00 - [205] Ok so we will talk about things of this nature later on trust but keep it off here..
Tason Hyena Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.11 04:40:00 - [206] Quote: We are already seeing this in the game to some degree with missions. People run missions over and over for no reason other than to accumulate isk. They are regarding isk just as you are regarding SP. This is why mission runners are often held by others in a lower regard, because they are treating Eve as a grind instead of just playing for fun at their own pace, in their own time. To be fair, you often need to grind to get the isk for the fun parts. ISK is a necessary grind unless you buy PLEX. The issue people have is that if it's all you do in game, you are missing out.
Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.11 04:44:00 - [207] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester well as a new player having to dish out 4.5 mil per learning book hits my pockets pretty hard not to mention having to buy a new book for every skill. And back to the isk buying and CCP just because ccp says its right doesn't make it so and this is something that we can get into at a later time in a different location if you wish but this isn't the place for it here. And following everything i say or ask with a question is not proving any valid points. Sorry, utterly wrong, you don't decide what's right and wrong in the game, CCP does. You may not like but if you actually bother to find out why CCP has the GTC and PLEX system then you might see it as part of them combatting isk sellers. So it does make it so. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it wrong. Quote: k so we will talk about things of this nature later on trust but keep it off here.. This is the perfect place to show how ignorant you are, so let's keep it right here.
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.11 04:55:00 - [208] Why don't you use your brain and earn isk through less labour intensive means (and without buying isk)? I make all the income I need for pvp, exploration and other activities I enjoy in game through 3.5 million skillpoints of 'specialisation' and about 3-5 hours a month of work. This leaves any other time I choose to log in to do as I wish. Mining is a terrible area to start up as a new player, especially if you are going to complain about specialising and not having an advantage over higher skilled players. Those mining skills do not transfer over to any over profession and unless you are working as part of an industrial corp in null sec, the isk income from it is terrible. At least aim for level 4 mission running then you get a half decent income while your skills will apply to pvp and most other flight based aspect of the game. It's pathetic to complain of not being able to catch up with high SP players then complain about all the ways in which people have proven time and time again that they can do just fine with relatively newer characters. Even more confoundingly, you complain of wanting to be able to catch up in skillpoints by grinding but then complain about the cost of skillbooks. Well... if you shorten your training time you are going to have less time to make the isk for the skillbooks you need to progress This expectation of hard work equals greater reward is ridiculous. Use your intelligence and don't waste your time putting yourself through slavery. I appreciate eve is quite a change of approach to a lot of other mmo's but you have to understand that it just works differently, and the majority of people playing eve appreciate is for that exact reason. ~ Soar Like a Penguin
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.11 04:57:00 - [209] Edited by: Akita T on 11/02/2010 05:00:24 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester well as a new player having to dish out 4.5 mil per learning book hits my pockets pretty hard not to mention having to buy a new book for every skill. About half a year ago, after a similar whine-thread from somebody like you, I decided to create an alt JUST TO SEE HOW "BAD" NEW PLAYERS HAVE IT. I extended a 21-day invite to myself, created the character, gave him a PLEX (effectively giving me 51 days of free gameplay on the new account, since it was also adding 30 days of gametime to my main for the cost of 1 PLEX). And that was the ONLY assistance I gave to my alt from my main. I ran the tutorial and only one set of the career funnel mission chains. I sold all the junk I got that I wasn't using. That alone gave me pretty decent standings and enough money for all skills I needed urgently, plus enough to get a Kestrel and fit it out decently, and I still had plenty left. That took only a couple of hours online and one set of "overnight" skill training. I ran a few of the other tutorial agents for fast faction standings, I ran some of the low-level "event" chain agents I came across too, and I also ran one of the other 6 career funnel agent mission chains, while training for a Caracal. I also plugged in a full set of +1 implants. I started running some L1 for a small NPC corp with L2 and L3 agents nearby, and by the time I was minimally satisfied with how I could fit a Caracal, I already had the needed standings for the L2 agent and the cash to buy and fit the Caracal. That was in the 3rd day of gameplay, with maybe 10 hours actually played in total. I started flying the Caracal in L2s, while training for a Drake. I side-trained fast for destroyers and salvaging (took a couple of hours), bought a Cormorant and pumped it full of salvagers. After less than 2 weeks, with probably 30 hours actually played (probably less than 25, but you never know), I had both the minimal skills to fit and also the money to buy a Drake... and guess what, ALSO the standings to access L3 agents. I bought and trained all advanced learning skills, also filled my head with +3 implants before the end of the 3rd week. L3 missions were fast becoming quite "run of the mill", no more "will I make it or not", no more "damn, I should avoid this mission". I had probably played less than 40 hours total. Then I got bored and only logged in to change skills for the remaining PLEX-paid time, completely and utterly convinced of how freaking easy things are for new players these days, compared to how we had it "back in the day". I also dabbled in some minor trading along the way with the "spare ISK" I didn't use for the time being, otherwise I would have had to actually play a couple of hours more, but that's about it. So, yeah... you were saying ? _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Thrasymachus TheSophist	Posted - 2010.02.11 05:36:00 - [210] OP has valid point, but as you learn the game you realize its really not as much of an issue as, say, it would be in an FPS where 2 people are in a gun fight and the more experienced player moves faster, takes more damage, and has a more powerful gun. Eve is paper/scissor/rock, at base, like most video games. Learning what ships are rocks or paper or scissors is half the battle. If you choose a 1v1 properly, ensuring you are a rock and your opponent is scissors, it wont' much matter if his SP are substantially higher. If you're doing small group skirmishes, or large fleet battles, the discrepancy matters even less. Don't get me wrong - having an extra 20% everything is awesome and thats why SP training is important. But even without it, you contribute and can have a good time, and you can solo, and you can contribute to group fights. Its really not that big of a deal.

Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.11 06:33:00 - [211] So you come up with a story and have proven nothing what so ever. I could come up with a story much like that but with the out come much much worse. It's funny that after all this talk you have done you come out with this now? Why not post this as your first post and leave it at that? LOL you call me a troll? gtfo of my thread you have failed for the last time. And about the right and wrong this is a much larger topic than I think you could really handle but anyways. First of all you would have to prove that there is a ultimate right and a ultimate wrong A law of good and evil per say to make your point valid. So lets look at the matter at hand CCP allows you to buy isk there for it is right and or good. Just because a higher authority allows such a thing and the popular belief in this community also agrees It doesn't make it any more right then it does wrong. Most of the things you believe to be moral or good are deeply rooted in what you where taught and what you have learned growing up and you have been lead to believe when a higher authority makes something not ill-legal than it makes it moral or right/good acceptable. It is still a matter of Opinion At this point if it is indeed good or bad. Now I am going to open my self up to a bombardment of this is eve not other mmos please save it as it will be ignored and the example I'm giving is necessary to keep my argument relevant to the topic at hand. If you buy in game currency in any way shape or form in WOW,EQ,L2 ect ect it is a bannable Offense just like in eve is you buy from a isk seller you will be ban. How ever if you buy it from CCP its perfectly ok why is it right to buy from ccp but not from a isk seller? Because ccp says so ? No wrong in my opinion is is wrong in every sense no matter what means you take to the same end. The end result is your still buying isk. And this is what the term Hypocrite means. Without getting into detail here anyone interested in this pointless argument and if you recall i did say this was not the time and or place for it but some people want to be ignorant so now we are at is. I would like you to tell me what Falsification is if you don't know do not bother getting involved here. to those that do know again lets take back to buying ISK from ccp as being acceptable but only if you buy form them and in turn makes it not a bad thing to do. We can make a model in which buying isk is bad IE: you buy from a isk seller we can come up with many reasons why this is indeed bad Those results would then have to transfer over to buying isk from ccp and the end result would be the same and one can conclude that doing so is still bad, the only thing that has happened here is a higher authority has come and made it acceptable but only if you do it using them as your means to the same end of buying isk vs. a isk seller. This would be like buying crack from a crack dealer is bad but the courts just passed a law to make it legal to buy crack from them but still ill-legal to buy from the crack dealer. Now most everyone would agree that it is still bad except for in the minds of the crack users. But in the end it still comes down to a matter of opinion you could argue. The vast majority of us are not crack users so we would see it as bad so like I said before the majority and or ruling of a higher authority does nothing in this case of proving what is right and what is wrong. So when you ask me who am i to say it's wrong to buy isk when ccp says it's ok if you didn't understand anything you just read do not bother responding When you enter in a cheat code into a ps3 game that grants you extra money is it still not cheating even though it is allowed in the game?
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.11 06:41:00 - [212] lol ~ Soar Like a Penguin
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.02.11 06:43:00 - [213] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester But the fact of the matter is the game is so far along that it creates an imbalance to the game for new players vs. old players in terms of no matter what we do (as a new player) we will never catch up in skill points sure we will catch up in player skill in time but since equips are based on time lots and lots of time the older player will always have the ability to fit his ship better. I once thought as you. You're wrong in a number of critical ways: - Many older players have (repeatedly) left Eve and come back. They do not have as many SP as their age might suggest. - There comes a time when pretty much all you can do is spend months on an inconsequential amount of damage or cross train. Cross training effectively "multiclasses" you in the AD&D 2E sense. At 45M SP, you simply aren't going to get much more benefit out of a single race (unless you're Minmatar). - There's only so much SP that you can dump into a single ship. Someone having BS 5 and Logistics 5 and Jump Drive Cal 5 and a whole crap ton of L5s is no better in a Rifter than you are with 3-4M SP. The difference will mostly come from player skill. - Even in terms of ISK making an enterprising player will drastically outperform an old vet with tons of SP. I mean sure, there's perhaps a year until you're pretty well "good to go" (if you don't **** up your training plan - but that's not my fault) in most of what you're going to need to do. There'll be some performance differences and sometimes you'll find someone has "specialized" in pretty much everything... but it will not affect your day to day play. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.11 06:46:00 - [214] Originally by: Gladys Pank lol I see you didn't understand any part of this so in turn you reply with lol to look involved
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.11 06:55:00 - [215] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Originally by: Gladys Pank lol I see you didn't understand any part of this so in turn you reply with lol to look involved lol ~ Soar Like a Penguin
Smabs	Posted - 2010.02.11 07:14:00 - [216] I think some of the older players have a bit of an optimistic view of SP. SP matters up to a point but it does flatten out after twelve months or so. I know for a fact that most pvp'ers think of a 2 or 3 month old character as an easy kill and 95% of the time they're right. And those 10 and 20 million SP requirements for a lot of corps exist for a reason. At 6 months a combat specialised character will be at a reasonably significant disadvantage against older players (they'll generally be 5 to 10% worse in most regards). After a year that disadvantage should be pretty small for most of the general support skills (like gunnery, fitting, navigation etc). From a year onward it becomes less about the support skills and more about training for whichever ship you'd like to fly. Of course you can be very useful to a gang/fleet by training up interceptors, which are fairly light on SP requirements and should only take a couple of months to be really effective. As far as isk goes you hardly need any skillpoints at all to make a lot. Trading, level 1 and 2 deadspace plexes, level 3 missions, 0.0 ratting, scamming etc are extremely easy to get into.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.11 07:28:00 - [217] Edited by: Akita T on 11/02/2010 07:34:48 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester So you come up with a story and have proven nothing what so ever. You were complaining that 4.5 mil is oh-so-much for a relative newbie. I was proving you that it's actually trivial for a new character to get that much ISK if he knows what he's doing. As opposed to, you know, having next to no clue and randomly stumbling, not taking any advice, blaming everyone but himself for the situation he's in. Quote: I could come up with a story much like that but with the out come much much worse. Yup. YOUR story. The story of the 1+ month old that apparently knows it all, but feels that he has trouble getting 4.5 mil ISK. Quote: First of all you would have to prove that there is a ultimate right and a ultimate wrong Quite the opposite. YOU are the one that claims an ultimate right and an ultimate wrong exists, and moreso, that YOU have the right answer as to what they are... and in this particular case, "buying ISK is cheating", as per the Molester's Gospel. I on the other hand only claim to know what is allowed and what is not allowed, morality be damned, who cares about right or wrong. Quote: If you buy in game currency in any way shape or form in WOW,EQ,L2 ect ect it is a bannable Offense just like in eve is you buy from a isk seller you will be ban. How ever if you buy it from CCP its perfectly ok why is it right to buy from ccp but not from a isk seller? You DON'T buy the ISK from CCP. CCP sells no ISK. You buy ISK from another player in exchange for extra gametime for that player. Quote: Because ccp says so ? No, because it benefits the game to allow it. On one hand, a whole set of players that would otherwise be unable to play CAN now play - CCP wins, players win. On the other hand, another set of players that would ultimately buy ISK either way (possible consequences be damned) now no longer line the pockets of RMTers because they have a legitimate alternative, and CCP has a far smaller RMT-related workload, plus they're not forced to ban players - CCP wins, players win. THAT is the reason why it's allowed. NOT because CCP says so, but because the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. The drawbacks are that somebody somewhere that does not wish to grind for a certain amount of time to get the ISK gets it at a real-life-cash penalty. [sarcasm]Wow, the end must be near if that happens ![/sarcasm] In WOW and many other games, game currency is far more "permanent" than in EVE - you never really lose your gear and you don't need a full replacement, you can never lose absolutely everything you have in a stupid mistake, and so on and so forth. In EVE, you can, and people HAVE lost it all because they were overconfident and uninformed, or dare I say, stupid. What do you care if the guy that just killed you bought his ship with either ISK-from-GTC, ISK he scammed in-game, ISK he earned trading, ISK he earned on his L4 mission-running alt or ISK he got from other PvP encounters ? YOU STILL LOST YOUR SHIP EITHER WAY. And you CAN'T know where he got his ISK from. Nor should you care. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Albion Stormchaser	Posted - 2010.02.11 07:45:00 - [218] The question is does the OP also think that 0.0 should be reset as the alliances have an unfair advantage becuase they got there first. As for the discussion i read the first 4 pages, saw the responses Of Akita and Tippia, who have repeatedly shot down the arguments put forward by the OP. So heres an anecdote, I have a main that is an 06, Of the 273 skills he has only 63 are at level 5, since he reached 10mil sp hes been able to compete against players 2-3 years old than him, and i know that a character 2 years younger than him can pop him if he has the skill (NOT Skill points). I took part in a frig tourney, T1 frigs with T1 (any meta 4 or below) fitting, no rigs, my opponent was a player 2 years older than me, and about 28 mil sp more. The fight was a close one, when i popped he was down to 10% structure remaining, the difference, i didnt get my drones out quickly enough, and didnt have a rep fitted. He was speed tanked, with a web and neuts. Moral of the story you can compete with older players, in some cases its luck (hitting an extra 5% of the time, being in the right ship), in most other times its skill in fitting a ship you are confident in.
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.02.11 07:57:00 - [219] You are dumb. You already shot yourself in the foot a couple of pages ago with this quote: Originally by: Chesterr theMolester And i love the assumptions that i haven't been successful at pvp ive been through 3 war decs from griever corps and ive been active out in the field every day these guys are fielding tech twos and faction ammo on every war dec i've gotten my fair share of kills and i have yet to lose a ship this entire time. and no i wasn't playing lame docking games and orbiting station i been out in the field. Why don't you stop ignoring those that brought it up and actually address this?
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp.	Posted - 2010.02.11 08:42:00 - [220] Edited by: Ben Derindar on 11/02/2010 08:46:26 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester So you come up with a story and have proven nothing what so ever. I could come up with a story much like that but with the out come much much worse. It's funny that after all this talk you have done you come out with this now? The point was to demonstrate that, as much as you may think 4.5mil is a lot of money and takes a long time to accumulate, it took much much longer in days gone past. You might not wish you had lots of SP if you knew what the game was like in its earlier days. Of course, I'm sure you think this is irrelevant to you, but think about this: you say you've played other MMOs for a good period of time, so you must be able to recall the earlier days before one of those other games was "dumbed down" in some way to appease the whining newbies who are overly fixated with "catching up" to the vets more easily? Assuming this is the case... why do you want the same thing for Eve? Originally by: Chesterr theMolester So lets look at the matter at hand CCP allows you to buy isk there for it is right and or good. Just because a higher authority allows such a thing and the popular belief in this community also agrees It doesn't make it any more right then it does wrong. Actually it kinda does, see that's what being a higher authority is all about. They - in this case, CCP - make the rules here. You don't have to buy a PLEX if you don't want to, I've never personally done it either, but why chastise others for choosing to do something that CCP allows anyway? Who the hell gives you that right? No wonder you're posting with an alt. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester If you buy in game currency in any way shape or form in WOW,EQ,L2 ect ect it is a bannable Offense just like in eve is you buy from a isk seller you will be ban. How ever if you buy it from CCP its perfectly ok why is it right to buy from ccp but not from a isk seller? You obviously don't understand the difference between RMT - which everyone here will agree is nothing but trouble - and the PLEX system, which CCP devised as a means of allowing players to effectively trade subscription time for isk between each other. I suggest you do a little reading on the subject; it would be nice if you actually learned something before your precious morals get in the way again. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester there are a few people within this post alone who some what agree as well as all the replies from you guys stating this has been talked about before in post much like this one proves other people share my same point of view Indeed. And the fact that all those other threads went the same way as this one has, proves that a far greater number don't. /Ben

Daemonspirit Redhawk Tribal Trust	Posted - 2010.02.11 09:13:00 - [221] I'm calling the OP a troll. All his points have been addressed intelligently and cogently, and yet he continues. Even going so far as to conflate PLEX w/ RMT. I don't believe anyone can do that unless its willfull ignorance. ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.11 09:17:00 - [222] go ahead and send me the 600mil isk i would send it back if i got free isk in any way shape or form i would be like the people who only log in to que skills and have no real reason to play.
Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.11 09:20:00 - [223] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester So you come up with a story and have proven nothing what so ever. I could come up with a story much like that but with the out come much much worse. It's funny that after all this talk you have done you come out with this now? Why not post this as your first post and leave it at that? LOL you call me a troll? gtfo of my thread you have failed for the last time. And about the right and wrong this is a much larger topic than I think you could really handle but anyways. First of all you would have to prove that there is a ultimate right and a ultimate wrong A law of good and evil per say to make your point valid. So lets look at the matter at hand CCP allows you to buy isk there for it is right and or good. Just because a higher authority allows such a thing and the popular belief in this community also agrees It doesn't make it any more right then it does wrong. Most of the things you believe to be moral or good are deeply rooted in what you where taught and what you have learned growing up and you have been lead to believe when a higher authority makes something not ill-legal than it makes it moral or right/good acceptable. It is still a matter of Opinion At this point if it is indeed good or bad. Now I am going to open my self up to a bombardment of this is eve not other mmos please save it as it will be ignored and the example I'm giving is necessary to keep my argument relevant to the topic at hand. If you buy in game currency in any way shape or form in WOW,EQ,L2 ect ect it is a bannable Offense just like in eve is you buy from a isk seller you will be ban. How ever if you buy it from CCP its perfectly ok why is it right to buy from ccp but not from a isk seller? Because ccp says so ? No wrong in my opinion is is wrong in every sense no matter what means you take to the same end. The end result is your still buying isk. And this is what the term Hypocrite means. Without getting into detail here anyone interested in this pointless argument and if you recall i did say this was not the time and or place for it but some people want to be ignorant so now we are at is. I would like you to tell me what Falsification is if you don't know do not bother getting involved here. to those that do know again lets take back to buying ISK from ccp as being acceptable but only if you buy form them and in turn makes it not a bad thing to do. We can make a model in which buying isk is bad IE: you buy from a isk seller we can come up with many reasons why this is indeed bad Those results would then have to transfer over to buying isk from ccp and the end result would be the same and one can conclude that doing so is still bad, the only thing that has happened here is a higher authority has come and made it acceptable but only if you do it using them as your means to the same end of buying isk vs. a isk seller. This would be like buying crack from a crack dealer is bad but the courts just passed a law to make it legal to buy crack from them but still ill-legal to buy from the crack dealer. Now most everyone would agree that it is still bad except for in the minds of the crack users. But in the end it still comes down to a matter of opinion you could argue. The vast majority of us are not crack users so we would see it as bad so like I said before the majority and or ruling of a higher authority does nothing in this case of proving what is right and what is wrong. So when you ask me who am i to say it's wrong to buy isk when ccp says it's ok if you didn't understand anything you just read do not bother responding When you enter in a cheat code into a ps3 game that grants you extra money is it still not cheating even though it is allowed in the game? What a self righteous load of crap. This has to be a troll
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.11 09:44:00 - [224] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester go ahead and send me the 600mil isk i would send it back if i got free isk in any way shape or form i would be like the people who only log in to que skills and have no real reason to play. So, in other words, you ONLY want to play EVE to earn more ISK "honestly" ? In that case, I would suggest to stop wasting ISK on too many new skills, because there's only a couple you'll ever need, not even to high levels, and they're all in the "Trade" subtree. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.11 10:01:00 - [225] No i want to pvp as well but until i can fit some tech two weapons i am not doing a lot to anyones shield or armor tank if they are in tech two. and being in a drake its a damn good two months of nothing but missile training to tech tech 2 hams
Sista Jaxx	Posted - 2010.02.11 10:02:00 - [226] Edited by: Sista Jaxx on 11/02/2010 10:04:57 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester So you come up with a story and have proven nothing what so ever. * Who are you referring to here? If you're going to succeed in defending a point you made, at the very least site the source. And have a substantiated reason why that point does not refute yours. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester you call me a troll? gtfo of my thread you have failed for the last time. * Now, now. Although some of the respondents have been a tad harsh (at best) myself included, you did post with the intent of others responding to your ideas. Picking out the responses you like and chucking out the rest is selfish and one-sided. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester And about the right and wrong this is a much larger topic than I think you could really handle but anyways. * No. Clearly you are not handling it. Again, you just don't agree/like the answers you are getting. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester of all you would have to prove that there is a ultimate right and a ultimate wrong A law of good and evil per say to make your point valid. * Again no. It is not up to any of us to 'prove' this. Except you. But the ultimate right (the ultimate good) is, is that CCP can do whatever they want regarding their game. Period. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester So lets look at the matter at hand CCP allows you to buy isk there for it is right and or good. Just because a higher authority allows such a thing and the popular belief in this community also agrees It doesn't make it any more right then it does wrong. * What CCP have done is perfectly okay. People who choose to buy GTC or PLEX and sell them are not spending their money on an organization that is independent of CCP. In other words, they are not paying someone else for game time illegally. Their paying CCP (the game owner) for game time and then selling it to other players. Fantastic idea! * It doesn't matter if the EVE community at large agrees with this or not. It's CCP's decision. Period. * Right & wrong have nothing to do with this. And that's okay. * My opinion: I think it's a great idea to buy game time and sell it to another player for isk. Why don't you? Chesterr, think about it man. CCP has given you the right to buy game time and then sell it to a player for isk without the consequence of having your account banned or worse. Dude, honestly, buy some and sell. You can actually make a good amount of isk to spark off your own space career in EVE. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Now I am going to open my self up to a bombardment of this is eve not other mmos please save it as it will be ignored and the example I'm giving is necessary to keep my argument relevant to the topic at hand. * Well it is relevant, actually. EVE is, in so many ways, unique and creatively different than so many other games. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester If you buy in game currency in any way shape or form in WOW,EQ,L2 ect ect it is a bannable Offense just like in eve is you buy from a isk seller you will be ban. How ever if you buy it from CCP its perfectly ok why is it right to buy from ccp but not from a isk seller? Because ccp says so ? No wrong in my opinion is is wrong in every sense no matter what means you take to the same end. The end result is your still buying isk. * This point is such a nonissue (see above, and elsewhere in the thread). * Commenting on it any further, as you have, is not making you look very intelligent or savvy. We all know how you feel. We really do. But your feelings really have little to do with the design and implementation of this game. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester So when you ask me who am i to say it's wrong to buy isk when ccp says it's ok if you didn't understand anything you just read do not bother responding. * Sigh....I'm so dumbfounded at this point Chesterr. I really wish you could see the absurdity of the way you've carried on and your lack of understanding. /signing out.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.11 10:15:00 - [227] Edited by: Tippia on 11/02/2010 10:23:57 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Just because a higher authority allows such a thing and the popular belief in this community also agrees It doesn't make it any more right then it does wrong. Incorrect. At best you could call it unsportmanlike, since it's just as legal a move as turning a pawn into a queen, and about as annoying for the opponent. Quote: the example I'm giving is necessary to keep my argument relevant to the topic at hand. If you buy in game currency in any way shape or form in WOW,EQ,L2 ect ect it is a bannable Offense just like in eve is you buy from a isk seller you will be ban. How ever if you buy it from CCP its perfectly ok why is it right to buy from ccp but not from a isk seller? A couple of things. Buying ISK in EVE also gets you banned. You cannot buy ISK from CCP. You can only trade ISK against game time, which is a huge critical difference to what you're describing. So no, it's not relevant to the topic at hand. Quote: So when you ask me who am i to say it's wrong to buy isk when ccp says it's ok if you didn't understand anything you just read do not bother responding Unfortunately, since you amply demonstrated that you don't understand how ISK trading works in EVE, you're still not qualified to make any kind of statement on the matter (incidentally, just like you're not qualified to complain about SP since you don't understand how that works either). So, to drag this back on topic: Why do you feel the need to grind SP? Why do you think that having more SP matters? Why do you think that "catching up" is impossible? Why do you feel that it even matters? What do do think "catching up" entails given the EVE skill system? Quote: No i want to pvp as well but until i can fit some tech two weapons i am not doing a lot to anyones shield or armor tank if they are in tech two. and being in a drake its a damn good two months of nothing but missile training to tech tech 2 hams No no no no no NO NO! Don't wait for ***s sake! Go out and do it. This is the problem with your entire attitude: you think SP matters. It does not. Skill* matters, and you won't accumulate that by sitting around and waiting for some silly numbers to tick up. If you wait to fight until you have a full T2 setup, all that will happen is that you will lose a full T2 setup, over and over again, because you don't know how it works. You may have the skill points, but they are worthless without the skill to use them. If there's anything you need to start training, it's how to fly your ship and how to lose your ship without it hurting your wallet – this will not happen if you go out and do it in T2 fits because you will lose a metric ***ton of them, you will* go broke, and you will quit the game. You can dent their tank just fine without T2, and likewise, they could survive that T2 fit you're dreaming out just fine without using T2 themselves. There are so many ways to increase your damage output and your tank that have nothing to do with T2. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.02.11 10:24:00 - [228] if you think the sp difference is unfair you should start to ask people about something called the t2 bpo lottery.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.11 10:28:00 - [229] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester No i want to pvp as well but until i can fit some tech two weapons i am not doing a lot to anyones shield or armor tank if they are in tech two. and being in a drake its a damn good two months of nothing but missile training to tech tech 2 hams You DO realize that the difference in pure firepower while using the same ammo (let's face it, in most situations, faction ammo is what you're kind of expected to use in PvP regardless of weapon system) is barely around 13% between best named launcher and L4 in the basic launcher skill and a T2 launcher with L4 in the specialization skill ? Are you going to tell me now that a 13% extra DPS is somehow SUCH an insurmountable performance difference that you just can't do without ? And no, it's not 2 months of training, it's barely over two WEEKS of training. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Sista Jaxx	Posted - 2010.02.11 10:31:00 - [230] Originally by: Tippia No no no no no NO NO! Don't wait for ***s sake! Go out and do it. This is the problem with your entire attitude: you think SP matters. It does not. Skill* matters, and you won't accumulate that by sitting around and waiting for some silly numbers to tick up. If you wait to fight until you have a full T2 setup, all that will happen is that you will lose a full T2 setup, over and over again, because you don't know how it works. You may have the skill points, but they are worthless without the skill to use them. If there's anything you need to start training, it's how to fly your ship and how to lose your ship without it hurting your wallet û this will not happen if you go out and do it in T2 fits because you will lose a metric ***ton of them, you will* go broke, and you will quit the game. You can dent their tank just fine without T2, and likewise, they could survive that T2 fit you're dreaming out just fine without using T2 themselves. There are so many ways to increase your damage output and your tank that have nothing to do with T2. Chesterr, try to consider and understand this. Erase all your other preconceived notions and focus on this for a few weeks. Go ahead, try it. I challenge you.

Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2010.02.11 10:47:00 - [231] This is a common misconception that I think most new players have. I had it and I started the game well after it has been released for 3 years. After I solo killed a few beta players after only 4-5 months played I no longer worried about it and no longer frantically showed info on people before deciding to engage. There's lots of other factors that matter much, much more than time played in EVE. In fact, some of the highest ranking PvP pilots are not usually long term players but players with high levels of activity. You can get an astonishing number of kills in a level 4 interceptor all t2 fit. BC at level 4 with t2 guns/drones can rip apart most HACs/Recons with a competent pilot. You can easily join up with friends in a inty that only takes 2-3 months to train or even sooner with t1 frigs (which aren't that bad) so I just don't see your point. Do you also realize that if I play 10,000 hours in WoW I am exactly the same as a similarly fit character that has only played 500 hours? The only advantage you gain by playing more in other carebear MMORPGs is that you burn through the content and get bored faster than a casual player. EVE is friendly to all players and is fair to all. I would like to see more and more bonuses to new players as EVE gets older, but flat out changing a core game mechanic that defines EVE because you don't like it, well you sound like a selfish, uneducated infant that wants his bottle now instead of waiting 5 minutes. Originally by: Jim Raynor EVE needs danger, EVE needs risks, EVE needs combat, even piracy, without these things, the game stagnates to a trivial game centering around bloating your wallet with no purpose.
Nefrin Maldoes Minmatar Outer Rim Survey and Salvage	Posted - 2010.02.11 10:58:00 - [232] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester No i want to pvp as well but until i can fit some tech two weapons i am not doing a lot to anyones shield or armor tank if they are in tech two... For your repetitive pleasure: Originally by: Nefrin Maldoes Originally by: Chesterr theMolester ...two they revamp it in some way to allow players like my self to at least catch up a little to vet players in SP so I can use the better ships and tech 2 equips... Originally by: Chesterr theMolester ... been through 3 war decs from griever corps and ive been active out in the field every day these guys are fielding tech twos and faction ammo on every war dec i've gotten my fair share of kills and i have yet to lose a ship this entire time. and no i wasn't playing lame docking games and orbiting station i been out in the field. Bold/Italic/Underline is mine. You've just proven that you don't need to "catch up" in order to be effective in the game (if what you say is true), so what is your argument again?... I just saved myself the carpal tunnel! ---------- while(horse==dead) { beat(); }
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.11 11:00:00 - [233] 31 Jan 2009: my first lossmail was in a ship I couldn't even fully fit out slot wise. I had next to no skills at all, certainly no gunnery skills trained, and judging by the ship, no investment in frigate skill either. I was probably just doing my learning at the time. I died horribly, but I learned something. 11 Feb 2009: I got my first successful kill, still using tech I fittings. I didn't train tech II guns up for a LONG time since the advantage of getting them over boosting other skills was minimal, and simply pushed up the cost of ships. ~ Soar Like a Penguin
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.11 13:04:00 - [234] It's a perpetual mystery to me that some people will put ten times the effort in to arguing for their failure that it would take them to succeed.
Tesma Valdir Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.02.11 13:08:00 - [235] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 11/02/2010 10:23:57 No no no no no NO NO! Don't wait for ***s sake! Go out and do it. This is the problem with your entire attitude: you think SP matters. It does not. Skill* matters, and you won't accumulate that by sitting around and waiting for some silly numbers to tick up. If you wait to fight until you have a full T2 setup, all that will happen is that you will lose a full T2 setup, over and over again, because you don't know how it works. You may have the skill points, but they are worthless without the skill to use them. If there's anything you need to start training, it's how to fly your ship and how to lose your ship without it hurting your wallet û this will not happen if you go out and do it in T2 fits because you will lose a metric ***ton of them, you will* go broke, and you will quit the game. You can dent their tank just fine without T2, and likewise, they could survive that T2 fit you're dreaming out just fine without using T2 themselves. There are so many ways to increase your damage output and your tank that have nothing to do with T2. Quoting just to make sure you don't miss this superb and perfectly to the point advice, Chesterr.
ZiYauRen Gallente Sang Do Administraiton Sang Do Oligarchic Democracy	Posted - 2010.02.11 13:24:00 - [236] I've spent most of my life being paid to identify problems and find solutions. The basics of this are simple. Ask where they want to go. Then find out where their current actions, habits, and behaviours are actually taking them. The difference between the two is the problem. A solution would be easy at that point were it not for one thing. People. They do, think, and behave as they do because it is comfortable and it is what they actually want to do. Some will resist changing that to the point that the problem cannot be solved.... happens every day. The op is a very good example of this. In rl I would simply move on to the next client. Hint... hint.
Avon Caldari ORAC Futures	Posted - 2010.02.11 13:53:00 - [237] Edited by: Avon on 11/02/2010 13:54:29 I am sure that as the OP is only interested in fairness and equality, he will agree that when his proposal (for a 10% boost to SP earned whilst actively playing the game) is implemented it should be done retrospectively. I am very much looking forward to spending all the extra SP I have obviously earned in the last 7 years. Added: I also endorse, unreservedly, the proposal for extra SP based on number of forum posts. アニメ漫画です
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.11 14:18:00 - [238] Originally by: Avon I am sure that as the OP is only interested in fairness and equality, he will agree that when his proposal (for a 10% boost to SP earned whilst actively playing the game) is implemented it should be done retrospectively. I am very much looking forward to spending all the extra SP I have obviously earned in the last 7 years. And you want to know the funny part ? CCP could theoretically do that if they wanted to Because they already keep a total of number of seconds your account has spent logged in _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
idiot Cornermonkey	Posted - 2010.02.11 15:36:00 - [239] I think that we should be able to buy subscription time retroactively, limited to the quantity of inactive time on the account back to the point of game launch.. the time being added as a positive balance to the training que. That way, nobody would have a reason to whine about being so many SP behind, and if they are still a pinnacle of Suck, it would be purely their own fault. chomps a banana and prepares to fling poo
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.11 15:48:00 - [240] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 11/02/2010 13:54:29 I am sure that as the OP is only interested in fairness and equality, he will agree that when his proposal (for a 10% boost to SP earned whilst actively playing the game) is implemented it should be done retrospectively. I am very much looking forward to spending all the extra SP I have obviously earned in the last 7 years. Added: I also endorse, unreservedly, the proposal for extra SP based on number of forum posts. I'm already making plans to spend my 6.2M SP!

Riedle Minmatar Raptus Regalitor Black Legion.	Posted - 2010.02.11 16:02:00 - [241] Edited by: Riedle on 11/02/2010 16:02:31 There ain't no cure for dumb Edit: Edit snypa
Raydeus	Posted - 2010.02.11 16:08:00 - [242] Originally by: idiot Cornermonkey I think that we should be able to buy subscription time retroactively, limited to the quantity of inactive time on the account back to the point of game launch.. the time being added as a positive balance to the training que. That way, nobody would have a reason to whine about being so many SP behind, and if they are still a pinnacle of Suck, it would be purely their own fault. chomps a banana and prepares to fling poo This is actually a very good idea. SP calculation per month/year would be bit tricky because of stats and implants, but other than that it would be a pretty awesome way to shut them up. Not to mention whining threads about CCP "selling" SP would be epic. PS > Man how much money would CCP make from something like this?
MrBinary Minmatar Binary Systems	Posted - 2010.02.11 16:39:00 - [243] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester go ahead and send me the 600mil isk i would send it back I wouldn't...and I'd send you a huge thank you letter in return, and prolly send you a free BS as well...as I'm currently getting my son started in the game and could really use a HUGE boost to my wallet right now. "[ 2004.05.20 20:11:42 ] Hodal Xibur > Die MrBinary"
Taua Roqa Minmatar Rainbow Road	Posted - 2010.02.11 16:49:00 - [244] i used to be a newbie with no sp and now i can wtfpwn other ships with vollies of arties and suicide BS into gates and die gloriously. in otherwords stfu, you'll get there. [
Orree Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2010.02.11 18:37:00 - [245] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 10/02/2010 06:04:27 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester quack, quack, quack <snip> Basically, you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist anywhere except your mind because you lack the game experience to realize just how little you know, at the same time proposing a solution that would create far more problems you were not even aware of. Just drop it. Seriously. This pretty much sums this thread up in my view. There are plenty of MMOs that work the way the OP wants. EVE is different. People play EVE for what it is, not what it isn't. ---------- "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
Aerilis	Posted - 2010.02.11 18:48:00 - [246] WHY DO WE STILL REPLY TO THESE THREADS.
Mashie Saldana Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.11 18:52:00 - [247] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Ya i am waiting on a full on good reason why my idea is a bad one other than people thinking its unfair for a new player to gain a edge on a so called vet player. Back in beta you could gain SP from activity, CCP removed it. This post sent from an iPad. Does it look cool?
Von Mukesh	Posted - 2010.02.11 18:52:00 - [248] Originally by: Aerilis WHY DO WE STILL REPLY TO THESE THREADS. I'm sure this has been said before, but I seriously think CCP should just make a sticky relating to this subject and not ever allow any new threads about it again. EVER.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2010.02.11 20:44:00 - [249] I can't believe I missed the opportunity to respond to this thread with perposterously long, overly detailed arguments interspersed with barbed personal commentary and laced with my trademark old school humor. Curses!!! ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Raydeus	Posted - 2010.02.11 20:49:00 - [250] Originally by: Aerilis WHY DO WE STILL REPLY TO THESE THREADS. Probably boredom. In my case being a newbie the subject was pretty fresh to me... until page 3 or so.

Yuki Kulotsuki	Posted - 2010.02.11 21:28:00 - [251] Originally by: Ranger 1 I can't believe I missed the opportunity to respond to this thread with perposterously long, overly detailed arguments interspersed with barbed personal commentary and laced with my trademark old school humor. Curses!!! You should really train your forum *** skill to V. It's worth it. Originally by:** CCP Lemur THIS IS GOD: ... IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE REQUESTS I'M AVAILABLE SUNDAY FROM 10:30 TO 12:00 TO RECEIVE YOUR PRAYERS.
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.11 21:45:00 - [252] Originally by: Raydeus Originally by: Aerilis WHY DO WE STILL REPLY TO THESE THREADS. Probably boredom. In my case being a newbie the subject was pretty fresh to me... until page 3 or so. Yeah, this is an amusing angry noob / troll and by trying to reason here, I hoped the more rational inquirers would at least be able to have some info. Mainly because the OP is funny. ~ Soar Like a Penguin
Trebor Notlimah Lone Star EVE Group Veni Vidi Vici	Posted - 2010.02.11 22:06:00 - [253] I'll let you fly my 6-year old main and I'll murder you in my 1-year old alt. Why? Because it takes about a year to max out a few PvP battlecruiser/cruiser builds. There is little to no SP advantage on my 6-year old toon because my 1-year old was trained to be a pure pvp pilot and the number of skills that comes to play in a 1v1 is surprisingly low for cruiser/battlecruiser hulls. So why will I murder you? Easy. 6-years of PvP experience. Something no amount of SP training can make up for.
Fergus McRae Gallente New Eden Regimental Navy Rebel Alliance of New Eden	Posted - 2010.02.11 22:18:00 - [254] To the OP: Ya, well, babies don't know as much as adults when they're born, they have to learn it as they grow up. Eventually, those who were significantly older than we were when we were born will die before we do. Meanwhile lots and lots of babies will have been born after us as we've aged. After a certain period of time we'll be the folks who know a whole lot while babies and children know very little. Does any of this sound familiar? There's nothing "fair" or "unfair" about the fact that older players have more skills and are more able. Do you think it's fair that we should be able to join the game 5 years after it's launched and be on par with folks who've been here the entire duration? I sure as **** don't. Get over it. --- Fergus McRae Cerebral Mastication
Yamadori Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.11 22:34:00 - [255] 100% agree with OP
Martini20 RiotDay	Posted - 2010.02.11 22:40:00 - [256] Originally by: Jerid Verges [...] Unlike those games, in this game, Skillpoints do not make the difference in a fight. They help, they do tip things in the higher SP account's favor. What a load of bull****. Sp make a big difference in any fight you don't get blobbed.
Kristoph Syn	Posted - 2010.02.11 22:43:00 - [257] I respond to this topic the same way every time. I will do so again. I have a butt load of SP. I would guess that 80-90% of the time I use less than 9 million SP to do what I'm doing. The other 50 million - in a PvP sense- do me no good what-so-ever. What I'm doing is flying a 'cepter of Cov-Op frigate. All those medium/large/Cap turret/missile skills are for naught. All those ship skills Cruiser and above do me no good. [ Yes we could quibble that by knowing how to fly the larger ships I know their strengths/weaknesses better than the 9 M SP player, but this is a minor point and anyone in a decent corp could pick up the knowledge] I'd guess that a brand new character just hatched out of the clone vat could match my skills in 6-8 months for flying the ships I usually fly. They would have all the skills, though not the experience, to duplicate my Interceptor abilities. During this 6-8 month period my skills to fly an Interceptor would not improve one iota. If they happened to be more astute than myself they might very well best me in a 1v1, or out perform me in fleet operations. Battleships would take a while longer. To the OP, FWIW - I tried using the same argument 5 years ago.
Meredith Midnight	Posted - 2010.02.12 01:07:00 - [258] Edited by: Meredith Midnight on 12/02/2010 01:06:58 Honestly though, I'm willing to bet that most of the trial-ers (including myself at the time) thought like the OP (troll or not). After all, coming from any other MMO, they've grown accustomed to the fact that the higher level (SP, exp, w/e) you are, the more powerful you are. Why would they think EVE different? Many of my friends would try out pvp, get blobbed/ganked several times, and just leave the game, citing SP difference as one of the reasons they left. "Its too established, can't compete". Were they wrong? Depends on who you're asking. I've seen alot of vets here saying they can compete just fine starting anew when they rolled alts. Well, they've failed to accomodate the 'new EVE experience'. Where trial-ers are convinced to install deathclones in 0.0 space then kicked by their CEOs for lulz (true story) and other things people do to mislead/deceive new players; or maybe they just had incompetent CEOs and the new players never knew better. Sure doesn't help that rookie chat is full of people with bad advice and also telling you MUST train all your learning skills to 5/5 first before training anything else, and that if you pvp starting out you'll just fail and everyone will laugh at you. If you were able to get a decent start in EVE, then I must say that you were very lucky.
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.12 02:14:00 - [259] In EVE you must expect and learn from failure. Many players simply can't handle that, especially as other games never allow failure (so success is meaningless but they are very good at emulating it so players believe it happens) so they blame some game mechanic or some bad CEO or whatever. It's all just an excuse. I don't care about that until someone spouts off nonsense due to their failures and blames the game. In EVE this is very common and its just a symptom of how many players are not gamers these days and therefore have a low grasp that other's play styles are valid and a high intolerance to losing. That's why most of us post here as we expect new players to read this. I personally don't give a damn about the Op as he is either a troll or incapable of learning.
Regenerix	Posted - 2010.02.12 02:26:00 - [260] New player here, just finished my first month+2 weeks trial. Lots of questions/thoughts about this topic. I'll admit to being ex wow. Did some research before starting that game, so thanks to interface addons etc, hit 70 (max level then) in 3 weeks of semi-casual play. Within 3 months, I was in the top 2% rank wise in my battlegroup, and had all the pvp toys one could want, random nice title, armored netherdrake, what have you. Until the goalpost was moved. I was really bummed, but realized that, heck, if you can do it the first time, 2nd time must be easier. Sure enough hit an extremely high pvp rating in 2 weeks. (The next season) I was content, no more treadmilling for a few months. Why did I quit? To see if I could, that's all, really. Now I play EVE, and really like it. Curious though about a few new vs old things: Looking purely at statistics, how often does a newish player make it to the top tier? Glancing at the top 10 on the Battleclinic boards, the lowest estimated sp total for a top 10 character is 30m (Rico) Due to the specialization aspect, It won't take too long for me to say, master say, 1 weapon system on a single ship class and take it into pvp, and that you'd be basically be on par with anyone flying that ship class. That's pretty cool, to me. Each ship to me is like...multiclassing! Final question: Are killboards equivalent to say, wow arena ratings?

Mr Epeen	Posted - 2010.02.12 03:13:00 - [261] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester OP WOT This, Chesterr, is what it boils down to. Old players sit in blobs in Capital ships waiting to be called primary. New players run around having fun. I know which I prefer and that is why I sell my characters when they get over 40M SP. Mr Epeen
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2010.02.12 03:28:00 - [262] Originally by: Martini20 Originally by: Jerid Verges [...] Unlike those games, in this game, Skillpoints do not make the difference in a fight. They help, they do tip things in the higher SP account's favor. What a load of bull****. Sp make a big difference in any fight you don't get blobbed. why in EVE it's more of a team player game than a solo! so in a way he is right! Trinity Corporate Services
Mark Mustang	Posted - 2010.02.12 03:50:00 - [263] Good news. CCP is making changes tomorrow so you'll be able to play the way you want to. Congrats!
Apoctasy Deskira Industries G String University	Posted - 2010.02.12 05:00:00 - [264] YO IM POSTING
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Fyretracker Heavy Industries	Posted - 2010.02.12 05:51:00 - [265] eve seems to be more new player friendly then any level based MMO, think of this take 10 new players who have their **** in gear but are only a few months old. if they setup right and did their "homework" they could still take down a player of several years. one good field leveler i hear is ECM. try that in say WoW, a bunch of lvl 60s in greens wont even be noticed by an 80 in whatever is the latest season arena gear.
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.02.12 05:58:00 - [266] Actually, its a common misconception that new players can never catch up to older players in terms of skillpoints. Once the older players completely max out the sp available, then the new players are free to catch up at any time. In all reality however, there is only so much a person can train in a certain field, and if a newer player concentrates on a certain field at the beginning of his EVE life, then he can be as skilled in that area as an older player in a few months. Older players just have the advantage of being skilled in multiple areas. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.12 06:30:00 - [267] So i went and loaded up my eve mon and mind you i am already in tech 2 shields and in a drake with some missile skills up to 3 so far usings hams. And from this point to max out my shields and HAMS being able to use tech two drones maxed out nav skills relevent to pvp proper rigging ect with a head full of +3's already and its still 451 days off So who ever said a 1 year toon ve a 6 year toon is = your wrong go open evemon your self and test it out . And i think my point was lost in this mess i can tell some of you didn't read it well what i had said about it being unfair is a 5 year player who logs on 5 hours a week should not be bale to stay ahead in SP vs a player who loges 40+ hours. At no point did i ever say i wanted to start with the sp of a year player please read more before you stick your foot in your mouth. example i gave was a 2 year player who has logged 40+ hours a week of play time vs a 4 year player who has logged only 15 hours a week since he started the 2 year player should be able to make up some ground on the 4 year player. the unfairness is pointed at a carebear skilling system.
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.12 06:37:00 - [268] Edited by: Zartanic on 12/02/2010 06:43:45 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester So i went and loaded up my eve mon and mind you i am already in tech 2 shields and in a drake with some missile skills up to 3 so far usings hams. And from this point to max out my shields and HAMS being able to use tech two drones maxed out nav skills relevent to pvp proper rigging ect with a head full of +3's already and its still 451 days off So who ever said a 1 year toon ve a 6 year toon is = your wrong go open evemon your self and test it out . And i think my point was lost in this mess i can tell some of you didn't read it well what i had said about it being unfair is a 5 year player who logs on 5 hours a week should not be bale to stay ahead in SP vs a player who loges 40+ hours. At no point did i ever say i wanted to start with the sp of a year player please read more before you stick your foot in your mouth. example i gave was a 2 year player who has logged 40+ hours a week of play time vs a 4 year player who has logged only 15 hours a week since he started the 2 year player should be able to make up some ground on the 4 year player. the unfairness is pointed at a carebear skilling system. You really still do not get that time in game, if used properly, gives a massive advantage already? When you are online you learn the game and that's VERY important to a player. That's why those that station spin waiting to skill up always get their asses kicked. Why do you keep thinking SP's defines a player or is relevant to enjoyment? People are explaining it to you clearly. Why do you either ignore the points made or change your story every time? Your just talking to yourself and sticking your fingers in your ears. You're looking at EVE as a level based grinding game and its NOT. Those games suck. You have been given ample evidence of that. What bit can't you grasp? Also its obvious to anyone that even if such a system were introduced it would be abused mercilessly, impossible to monitor and record with any semblances of fairness and **** off the majority of players who hate grinding games.
Tesma Valdir Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.02.12 06:46:00 - [269] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 11/02/2010 10:23:57No no no no no NO NO! Don't wait for ***s sake! Go out and do it. This is the problem with your entire attitude: you think SP matters. It does not. Skill* matters, and you won't accumulate that by sitting around and waiting for some silly numbers to tick up. If you wait to fight until you have a full T2 setup, all that will happen is that you will lose a full T2 setup, over and over again, because you don't know how it works. You may have the skill points, but they are worthless without the skill to use them. If there's anything you need to start training, it's how to fly your ship and how to lose your ship without it hurting your wallet û this will not happen if you go out and do it in T2 fits because you will lose a metric ***ton of them, you will* go broke, and you will quit the game. You can dent their tank just fine without T2, and likewise, they could survive that T2 fit you're dreaming out just fine without using T2 themselves. There are so many ways to increase your damage output and your tank that have nothing to do with T2. Since you clearly overlooked this piece of gold again (or didn't care, didn't believe, comes to mind, you know ), I quote it again. Hopefully you do read and understand it know. It's not that hard.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.12 06:50:00 - [270] Giving a 10-15% increase to active players in sp gains still doesnt make it a grind game. If sp dont matter and its only skil that matters why do people bother training up for the larger ships why dont you all just fly around in tech 1 frigates with all tech 1 fits and ** all over ships. I like what the larger ships have to offer and im held away from them due to a carebear ass system for skiling up and oh poor me i dont got that kind of time to play. Your doing teh same ** your accusing me of doing. You dont like my ideas i dont like yours so i have ever bit of a right to state that.

Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.12 06:51:00 - [271] Edited by: Zartanic on 12/02/2010 06:58:33 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Giving a 10-15% increase to active players in sp gains still doesnt make it a grind game. If sp dont matter and its only skil that matters why do people bother training up for the larger ships why dont you all just fly around in tech 1 frigates with all tech 1 fits and ** all over ships. I like what the larger ships have to offer and im held away from them due to a carebear ass system for skiling up and oh poor me i dont got that kind of time to play. Your doing teh same ** your accusing me of doing. You dont like my ideas i dont like yours so i have ever bit of a right to state that. OK so I log in, go to work, come back and I've got more skill points. How dumb. Most if not all games have levelling , gear and grinding to keep players back and keep them playing as the actual content is so easy a brain dead monkey can do it. EVE just requires your brains from day one. It's complex and experience gives a big advantage. THATS the bit which is the 'levelling'. That is the bit that rewards time played, not SP's. What you suggest is totally pointless and rewards no one except those that have a computer they can keep on all day. If you want it activity based, good luck working out how that would be calculated. And maybe you can moan about the massive lag it will cause too. You have not properly thought through one bit of your suggestion. You are also assuming SP's is progression. Many posters have explained why this is not true yet you ignore it.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.12 07:04:00 - [272] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester a 5 year player who logs on 5 hours a week should not be bale to stay ahead in SP vs a player who loges 40+ hours. The guy who logs in and plays 40 hours a week - assuming he actually plays, rather than just mindlessly grinds NPCs - will soon be ahead of the 5 year old player in every way that counts. He'll soon get more kills, make more ISK, have more friends, be better regarded in corp and will in every way that counts, be more successful in EVE. He just wont have more skillpoints. So what? Please try and understand this basic concept: Skillpoints are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. This is what we are trying to tell you. The aim of the game is not to accumulate SP, and the first to get the most wins. We fully realise that the other MMOs you've played are like this, but you are failing to realise that EVE isn't like this. Intelligence, luck, social skills, ISK and friends are no more or less important than skillpoints, and can often be easily subsituted for them. Unconsciously, you're making an equation like this: 1M SP = level 1 60M SP = level 60 level 60 > level 1 therefore the new guy will always lose Now it's been explained repeatedly and eloquently why this is wrong, so I'm not going to do it again, but the fact is, it is wrong. You've devoted a lot of energy to complaining that you "can't compete" with the 'level 60s'. Other new players put similar energy in to asking how to compete - and they usually do very well. Just a thought... PS If your PVP drake skillplan will take you 451 days to complete, you're doing it wrong.
Nefrin Maldoes Minmatar Outer Rim Survey and Salvage	Posted - 2010.02.12 07:06:00 - [273] Ok, so most of us don't like your idea, you don't like ours. Good. Fine. Instead of whining about the fairness of it in the General Discussion forums, why don't you post a constructive criticism and solution to this "problem" in the Feature and Ideas forum, where it belongs. For the love of all that is good and sane, Mods please lock this thread. ---------- while(horse==dead) { beat(); }
Mira O'karr Minmatar Yin Bao	Posted - 2010.02.12 07:23:00 - [274] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester love how people call this a hard core player game when it isn't geared towards hard core players. It even states it on the back of the retail box.. eve is a hardcore game in so many ways, just not when it comes to power leveling to level cap. but you are just a troll, arent you?
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.12 07:37:00 - [275] mildley complex and hard core are not the same .. This game offers very little for the true hard core gamer Has plenty for the slightly more then casual gamer how ever
Albion Stormchaser	Posted - 2010.02.12 07:42:00 - [276] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester So i went and loaded up my eve mon and mind you i am already in tech 2 shields and in a drake with some missile skills up to 3 so far usings hams. And from this point to max out my shields and HAMS being able to use tech two drones maxed out nav skills relevent to pvp proper rigging ect with a head full of +3's already and its still 451 days off So who ever said a 1 year toon ve a 6 year toon is = your wrong go open evemon your self and test it out . This Sir is why you fail, Why are you intent on MAXING the skills, the difference between Level 4 and Level 5 is minimal, especially on shields. My 52mil main has 273 skills, 63 are at level 5, 7 in science mainly for Data cores but also astrometrics, 11 space ship, 20 gunnery, 5 drone, the rest are core support skills like Electonics, Engineering, Mechanic, yet my Shield and armour compensations are still at 4, which is more than adequate. you are a power gamer, who thinks all Level 5's = the win botton.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.12 08:03:00 - [277] Originally by: Albion Stormchaser Originally by: Chesterr theMolester So i went and loaded up my eve mon and mind you i am already in tech 2 shields and in a drake with some missile skills up to 3 so far usings hams. And from this point to max out my shields and HAMS being able to use tech two drones maxed out nav skills relevent to pvp proper rigging ect with a head full of +3's already and its still 451 days off So who ever said a 1 year toon ve a 6 year toon is = your wrong go open evemon your self and test it out . The only reason i did it was an other person who posted to me said a 1 yr toon and a 6 year toon will be the same in a fight Now i under stand that from skill 4 to 5 in minimal differance in one skill how ever if this other player had say 15 skills at 5 to my lvl 4s he had a pretty big advantage. This Sir is why you fail, Why are you intent on MAXING the skills, the difference between Level 4 and Level 5 is minimal, especially on shields. My 52mil main has 273 skills, 63 are at level 5, 7 in science mainly for Data cores but also astrometrics, 11 space ship, 20 gunnery, 5 drone, the rest are core support skills like Electonics, Engineering, Mechanic, yet my Shield and armour compensations are still at 4, which is more than adequate. you are a power gamer, who thinks all Level 5's = the win botton.
Tesma Valdir Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.02.12 08:06:00 - [278] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester mildley complex and hard core are not the same .. This game offers very little for the true hard core gamer Has plenty for the slightly more then casual gamer how ever And yet too hard core for you to understand and/or believe that simple fact: Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 11/02/2010 10:23:57This is the problem with your entire attitude: you think SP matters. It does not. Skill matters, and you won't accumulate that by sitting around and waiting for some silly numbers to tick up.
Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.12 09:55:00 - [279] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester This game offers very little for the true hard core gamer No, its just that "hardcore EvE gamer" is different breed than "hardcore Lineage 2 gamer" and you don't seem to get it. Also, in Eve pretty much always group effort > solo effort. Sitting in-game 20 hours per day does not make you hardcore. What you also don't seem to get is that current Eve players like skill system very much and so it is not going to change.
Nooma K'Larr Minmatar Cat's Cradle	Posted - 2010.02.12 09:59:00 - [280] I have tiny nipples. ___________________________________________________ CSM - Bring back Medium Shader!

Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp.	Posted - 2010.02.12 10:54:00 - [281] Edited by: Ben Derindar on 12/02/2010 10:55:34 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester And from this point to max out my shields and HAMS being able to use tech two drones maxed out nav skills relevent to pvp proper rigging ect with a head full of +3's already and its still 451 days off So who ever said a 1 year toon ve a 6 year toon is = your wrong go open evemon your self and test it out . You still don't get it. Nobody is ever using their full amount of SP at once no matter what they're doing. If you're flying a drake, most SP that have gone into flying other ships becomes meaningless. For example, I currently have 94 million SP. I have trained in a wide variety of ships, but as soon as I hop into, say a drake, all my millions of SP that have gone into Amarr or Gallente ships/weaponry are meaningless. Suddenly that 94 million doesn't sound so impressive; anyone with just a couple mil SP into drakes and missile skills will compete with me easily. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester a 5 year player who logs on 5 hours a week should not be bale to stay ahead in SP vs a player who loges 40+ hours. You're still obsessing over SP being the be-all and end-all of success in Eve. This, as has been reiterated countless times to you already, is NOT TRUE. Players who spend more time in-game are rewarded in other ways such as more isk, more kills, more ore mined, more ships manufactured, more of whatever they're doing. Stop trying to compare Eve to all the linear grind games you've played in the past. None of that experience applies here. Eve is different. You do not become an expert in Eve by playing other games. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Giving a 10-15% increase to active players in sp gains still doesnt make it a grind game. Of course it does. Give anyone a bonus for doing one thing over something else and people will be inclined to do that one thing. This is proven by looking at the bonus info for ships. Why do you feel inclined to fit missiles to your drake? Because it has bonuses for doing so. Thus, anyone with half a brain will always fit missiles to a drake. Giving SP gains for any activity in Eve will have the same result, people would gravitate more and more towards that one activity over anything else that doesn't. Given that it's not realistically possible to max your SP across all skills for the game since more are being added all the time, that's an awful lot of GRIND you've just introduced into the game there, son. And oh, look at this: Originally by: Mashie Saldana Back in beta you could gain SP from activity, CCP removed it. Why do you think that was removed? Possibly because everyone was grinding the same activity over and over for max gains instead of just playing for fun in their own way like people do now? Originally by: Chesterr theMolester You dont like my ideas i dont like yours so i have ever bit of a right to state that. Of course you have that right, but the most incredible thing about this discussion is that, after ten whole pages of people dismissing your suggestions, you still haven't been able to provide any counterpoints beyond the need to uphold your own personal principles of fairness, morality and entitlement. All of which, if you'll notice, will do nothing for you in Eve except hold you back. /Ben
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.12 11:03:00 - [282] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester And from this point to max out my shields and HAMS being able to use tech two drones maxed out nav skills relevent to pvp proper rigging ect with a head full of +3's already and its still 451 days off So you base your comparison on the incorrect assumption that the people you'll come up against and against which your skills will be compared will have all L5s… and thus your comparison has no basis in reality. Quote: So who ever said a 1 year toon ve a 6 year toon is = your wrong go open evemon your self and test it out . Now try doing the same test with all L4s instead and see what happens. Quote: And i think my point was lost in this mess i can tell some of you didn't read it well what i had said about it being unfair is a 5 year player who logs on 5 hours a week should not be bale to stay ahead in SP vs a player who loges 40+ hours. And the point that you keep losing because you refuse to read what others actually write is that the person who logs 40+ hours will be so far ahead the 5h-guy that it's downright silly. What you're asking for is already in the game. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Giving a 10-15% increase to active players in sp gains still doesnt make it a grind game. If sp dont matter and its only skil that matters why do people bother training up for the larger ships why dont you all just fly around in tech 1 frigates with all tech 1 fits and **** all over ships. You'd be surprised how many do exactly that. Quote: I like what the larger ships have to offer Ok, so we can add another point to the questions you refuse to answer: Why do you feel the need to grind SP? Why do you think that having more SP matters? Why do you think that "catching up" is impossible? Why do you feel that it even matters? What do do think "catching up" entails given the EVE skill system? What do you think larger ships will give you? oh and one more: Why do assume that you'll be alone? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.12 12:54:00 - [283] Originally by: Tippia oh and one more: Why do assume that you'll be alone? given the quality of his posts... I sure as hell can think of a couple of reasons.
Daemonspirit Redhawk Tribal Trust	Posted - 2010.02.12 15:21:00 - [284] Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Tippia oh and one more: Why do assume that you'll be alone? given the quality of his posts... I sure as hell can think of a couple of reasons. Beat me to it, dammit! Chester - If you can play 40 hours / week, YOU ARE AHEAD ALREADY! IF you use those hours for something besides NPC killing. IF you use those hours to test fits. IF you use those hours making connections with people. IF you use those hours in any way OTHER than what would be considered "the norm" in all those other games you've played. I know, I've been playing them since 1985. Eve =/= any other MMO out there. As to the specific point you make, to wit: Player playing 40 hrs/week should get % bonus to sp gain over player only playing 5 hrs /week for "activity". What activity SPECIFICALLY would trigger this SP gain? Because just about any activity you suggest is going to be able to be done by any other pilot in game, and will be. Therefore completely negating any supposed benefit you might have thought to accrue (i.e. "catch up"). In any meaningful manner (in Eve) if you can play 40 hours a week, I GUARANTEE you, you will be FAR ahead of the 3 yr. old player who only plays for 5 hours a week, probably within a year. He/She still may have more SP than you, but you will be far more SKILLED than that player. As far as wanting "larger" ships. Pick one, and train it up. Train the supports. You will quickly reach 90% efficiency with your selected ship as anyone else in game. There are, after all, only 5 levels to any skill. If you wait to do the activities you like, until you get to X skill points, your going to be severely gimping yourself. ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.12 15:32:00 - [285] He's just butthurt because EVE actually caters to casual players as well as 'hardcore' players like he imagines he is. He doesn't like the fact that people with lives and jobs can actually progress and enjoy the game without having to be uber like he sees himself. Living in Evemon and EFT does not make you a hardcore player, going out and learning the finer points of the game is what makes you better at playing. There are players with barely a million skill points that could take down much older characters because the went out and spent a bit of time testing their ship fits in the field and learning from mistakes rather than staring at EFT all day.
MrBinary Minmatar Binary Systems	Posted - 2010.02.12 15:36:00 - [286] Originally by: Fergus McRae To the OP: Ya, well, babies don't know as much as adults when they're born, they have to learn it as they grow up. Eventually, those who were significantly older than we were when we were born will die before we do. Meanwhile lots and lots of babies will have been born after us as we've aged. After a certain period of time we'll be the folks who know a whole lot while babies and children know very little. Does any of this sound familiar? There's nothing "fair" or "unfair" about the fact that older players have more skills and are more able. Do you think it's fair that we should be able to join the game 5 years after it's launched and be on par with folks who've been here the entire duration? I sure as **** don't. Get over it. Perfectly put. Wherez my purplz!?! "[ 2004.05.20 20:11:42 ] Hodal Xibur > Die MrBinary"
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.02.12 15:52:00 - [287] I'll add my whine to nullify your whine. It is unfair and unbalanced to have an exp based character growth system because those with more play time can "level up" faster than some of us guys with less time. Point? Stfu and put your time in playing the game.
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.02.12 16:14:00 - [288] Nice troll. Seriously. We haven't had people this riled up in awhile.
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2010.02.12 16:50:00 - [289] I am also replying this obvious thread.
Joseph Maccabi	Posted - 2010.02.12 16:55:00 - [290] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester mildley complex and hard core are not the same .. This game offers very little for the true hard core gamer Has plenty for the slightly more then casual gamer how ever Yeah come to 0.0 and participate in week long CTA ops to repel and invading coalition into your space and then tell me how not hardcore Eve is compared to ANY lame ass MMO out there.

Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2010.02.12 17:00:00 - [291] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester mildley complex and hard core are not the same .. This game offers very little for the true hard core gamer Has plenty for the slightly more then casual gamer how ever Yes, well trolled, but lets cut to the chase. 1: Contrary to what you believe most people do not consider a game to be "hard core" because you are required to kill 600 rats and learned to spam the jump button. 2: If you do not consider EVE to be "hard core" perhaps you can explain why you are currently failing at being successful, particularly when players with far lower skills are having no problem. 3: Grinding does not equal skill. 4: The ability to grind for long periods of time simply means you are easily amused. 5: Training skills does not equal being skilled. 6: People who have difficulty playing a game successfully, while others around him succeed while playing under the same rules, tend to look foolish when blaming their failure on faulty game mechanics. 7: If you don't understand the points made above, come back when you are experienced enough as a gamer to understand. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Tarine Ammatari	Posted - 2010.02.12 17:02:00 - [292] wtf is wrong with you people ... There is no debate here. You want more skillpoints by playing more ? Earn more isk by playing more and get older character. It's not that complicated. End of story. ISK is a universal monetary exchange system. You can get ANYTHING in Eve with ISK. Well, almost anything. So you want more experience points ? Translate them into ISK and stop being a ******. If you dont like it play other games.
Cocomomo	Posted - 2010.02.12 17:06:00 - [293] SOLUTION FOR ALL Attribute Remap Cool down reduce to every 6 months Anytime Attribute Remap = $500 million isk with all implants destroyed I think its a good compromise
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.12 17:18:00 - [294] I have to give the Op credit for sticking to his guns and making this last 10 pages, Troll or not.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2010.02.12 17:19:00 - [295] Originally by: Tarine Ammatari wtf is wrong with you people ... There is no debate here. You want more skillpoints by playing more ? Earn more isk by playing more and get older character. It's not that complicated. End of story. ISK is a universal monetary exchange system. You can get ANYTHING in Eve with ISK. Well, almost anything. So you want more experience points ? Translate them into ISK and stop being a ******. If you dont like it play other games. Tis true. There is nothing better than finding a newish player that just purchased a high skill point character, and then popping him with a low skilled combat alt. It tends to illustrate the difference between skill points and actual skill/experience far more accurately than any forum thread. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Kweel Nakashyn shadow and cloaking Yggdrasill.	Posted - 2010.02.12 17:19:00 - [296] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 12/02/2010 17:26:16 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester blablabla, I'm playing the game, blablabla Why do you assume that oldest players did not played the game like you a long time ago ? I'm, well, I don't really kinow, but say > 55M sp, and spend whole days on this game. Even whole weeks playing this game. So... You have two choices, really : - work your isk up and buy a character - work your sp up and enjoy rolepaying the destiny you forge. I choose the second way. Now I can go in any ship T1/T2 S, M but CSes and industrials ships with all skills L5. And all L ships with L4 (I really don't care capships, I'm a poor person). BUT : - I can't fly in 4 ships at the same time. I don't have a second account (I had one, I'm not hardcore enough for this AND this is dishonorable to my eyes). - I don't have +100% defence or dps against newbies flying the same ships as me (like any other mmo) - I don't play that much last two year, so today my wallet is under 1m (really... I never got over 350m anyway : I'm too honest for the game :/) - I have many options you'll have in two or three years. In Eve, three 1-month-newbies (newbies as in "I never played the game before but I'm smart enough to fit a ship somehow") can kill a 4564656161 years pod pilot. Try that in WoW. You'll need 60 newbies. ~ OSEF
Meredith Midnight	Posted - 2010.02.12 18:47:00 - [297] Originally by: Ranger 1 1: Contrary to what you believe most people do not consider a game to be "hard core" because you are required to kill 600 rats and learned to spam the jump button. Who says most people dont consider it hardcore to kill 600 rats or find all items or whatever. All you need to do is look at the trophy systems in the PS3 and 360 consoles, and look at the WOW population to find evidence otherwise. (Sony implemented it as an afterthought after finding out how popular it was on 360). "Hardcore" is subjective anyways, while I find grinding boring as hell, other people will do it, because its their definition of hardcore. Quote: 2: If you do not consider EVE to be "hard core" perhaps you can explain why you are currently failing at being successful, particularly when players with far lower skills are having no problem. Can't speak for the OP(troll or not), but I would assume it's due to the fact that he believes that he's not being rewarded for playing the game more than some other guy. If I may project, it's like having 2 people with level 10 characters, 1 can easily defeat the other because he has more knowledge about the game mechanics, but the character that lost is **ed that he should be at level 15 based on the amount of grind he puts in. Thats his definition of hardcore, and it's nigh impossible to convince him otherwise, and he won't find it in EVE Quote: 3: Grinding does not equal skill. I dunno, I find that it takes great skill to be able to tolerate having to save the damsel for the X hundredth time. I certainly don't have that skill, need to train grind tolerance to I. Quote: 4: The ability to grind for long periods of time simply means you are easily amused. As long as they're having fun, I dont see what's wrong with how they have it. Quote: 5: Training skills does not equal being skilled. True, but it does give you a hell of a headstart if you can do 25% more damage/rep/agility when you're starting off. Quote: 6: People who have difficulty playing a game successfully, while others around him succeed while playing under the same rules, tend to look foolish when blaming their failure on faulty game mechanics. Not really, it just means that they need to be informed on how to play successfully (which i hope this thread is doing to any new players who read it). If they look foolish to those who know how to play the game and they do nothing but point and laugh, then I would say its the viewer who is at fault for not helping them become better players. Quote: wtf is wrong with you people ... There is no debate here. There is a debate here, its the debate on how important SP is versus player skill (i say its a healthy combination of both). Quote:** I have to give the Op credit for sticking to his guns and making this last 10 pages, Troll or not. Indeed, it makes for a good read
lollerwaffle Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE	Posted - 2010.02.12 18:57:00 - [298] Originally by: Meredith Midnight Not really, it just means that they need to be informed on how to play successfully (which i hope this thread is doing to any new players who read it). If they look foolish to those who know how to play the game and they do nothing but point and laugh, then I would say its the viewer who is at fault for not helping them become better players. It's all down to the new player's attitude. Attitudes like the OP's generally get scorned and laughed while I and many others would never hesitate to point out mistakes and hand out advice to anyone who asks a question with the correct attitude. For example, the OP started well (a bit whiny but meh). Following the first 6 pages of replies telling him how he was wrong while giving him decent advice and getting ignored just makes people lose patience. In this case, it IS the newbies fault for being an idiot, and we are free (I'd say an obligation really) to laugh at them and not help them become better players. Also, upon further review, I revise my original score of 13/10 and award the OP another 3 bonus points for making this reach 10+ pages. New score: 16/10 We're gonna need a higher score limit at this rate. Originally by: salva dore Cloak should not be AFK solution. What do you think? Originally by: AFK Cloaker
Riedle Minmatar Raptus Regalitor Black Legion.	Posted - 2010.02.12 19:40:00 - [299] Edited by: Riedle on 12/02/2010 19:43:28 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester mildley complex and hard core are not the same .. This game offers very little for the true hard core gamer Has plenty for the slightly more then casual gamer how ever Congratulations you have lost at EVE. Edit to add that I too have small nipples.
Pater Peccavi Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.02.12 20:05:00 - [300] I don't have nipples _________ My name is Pater!

Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.12 20:10:00 - [301] Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 12/02/2010 20:10:32 any bonus for over 300 replys ? and 11 pages
Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.12 20:19:00 - [302] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester any bonus for over 300 replys ? and 11 pages Sure. Send me any amount od ISK in excess of 10 mil and especially for you I'll send triple amount backi instead of usual double.
MasterEnt	Posted - 2010.02.12 20:37:00 - [303] Edited by: MasterEnt on 12/02/2010 20:38:53 Funny - my 2 month old toon has no broblem playing with my 5 year old tune. The problem is not EVE - its your brain and our inability to adapt or see the opportunities you spoonfed brat. I love it when newbs come here saying that "if ou dont change it to what I want, it will make the game bad, and people are leaving the fame beacuse of that now becuase I have all the statistics andiknowwhattheFiamtalkingaboutsomakeitmyway."
Deviese Opella	Posted - 2010.02.13 01:04:00 - [304] One month old toon here, actually my third account. I have been playing eve for a total of... right under 2 months. I started out with two miners, and had full intentions on this one going the same route.. then decided against it. I did intend to just buy a character, but this thread swayed me against it and instead will learn the ropes the hard way. I have one pilot already taking me under his wing, so my ~2mil SP is not a hinderance as I dont fly alone anymore. I too play WoW and one of the reasons I love Eve is for the fact that I don't need to play to improve my characters. I can go in WoW on my ICC raids tonight and not worry one about getting behind. I dont have to spend days playing a game to get ahead in it. I may have a lot to learn, but I do know aleady that SP means little. My two month old miners are a few weeks away from mining as good as most other high SP miners, and this toon is about 45 days from a decked out Drake.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.13 03:29:00 - [305] Originally by: MasterEnt Edited by: MasterEnt on 12/02/2010 20:38:53 Funny - my 2 month old toon has no broblem playing with my 5 year old tune. The problem is not EVE - its your brain and our inability to adapt or see the opportunities you spoonfed brat. I love it when newbs come here saying that "if ou dont change it to what I want, it will make the game bad, and people are leaving the fame beacuse of that now becuase I have all the statistics andiknowwhattheFiamtalkingaboutsomakeitmyway." So you got carried by 5 year players and where more of a hinderance than help
Slade Hoo Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2010.02.13 03:55:00 - [306] I'm bored of that noob and the thread itself. ------ I'm just a lonely pirate on my way to ascension
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.13 10:11:00 - [307] So what one of you stole my snowman?
Virgil Travis Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.13 11:21:00 - [308] A wizard did it
Danks Caldari Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds	Posted - 2010.02.13 14:51:00 - [309] It's amazing how one person's failure at Eve can spawn 11 pages. Or does this mean Chester actually wins?
Elena Laskova	Posted - 2010.02.13 16:24:00 - [310] OP: You're right that it's a problem that rookies have a hard time "catching up". But introducing an XP-like mechanism isn't the right answer for EvE - too much of the game has been built assuming the current SP system. High-SP players - as usual you don't disappoint, and as usual there's a small amount of meaning content almost buried among the iraational arguments and rudeness. We know OP is partly right for two reasons: 1. CCP are removing more and more of the L5 pre-reqs for mid-level skills and equipment. 2. High-SP characters are easy to value, since there's an active market. We can see what they a worth in gaming time (via a simple assuption about earing rates from grinding ISK) and in RL money, since there is also a indirect ISk to RL dollar market. The conclusion is obvious: Noit surprisingly, EvE players strongly believe low-SP chatracters are less capable than high-SP characters. Which means every rookie needs to be persuaded that this isn't going to make their playing time less fun. If they're not persuaded, they should leave the game. I'm not convinced irrelevant and stupid counter-arguments, rudeness, and inane comparisons with WoW are the right path, but it seems I'm in the minority /lol. So, both sides are mostly wrong, but a little bit correct. What's to be done to makes sure rookies aren't left behind? Fortunately CCP has already decided, as we can see from their lately removing some of the L5-skill pre-reqs to basic skills and equipment. This makes very good sense because the 5th level of a skill requires most of the SP, but delivers the same boost as the other 4 levels. In many cases, L5 is a "blackmail" level - only worth doing if it's an essential pre-req to something else. OP - removing an L5 pre-req can cut by 30-50% the SP required to get to perhaps 90 or 95% maximum capability. It's a really huge boost for rookies aiming to become competitive i a specific context (such as combat). It's consistent with the game design. It's reasonably fair for everybody (and it's worth noting that the high-SP players who were relatively disadvantaged hardly complained at all on the forums). And remember - at a certain point, skills in any given area are maxxed out. Having 100+ million SP doesn't make your 30 million SP in combat skills more effective than a 35 million SP combat specialists 30 million in combat skills. Very high SP certainly means greater flexibiity, but not greater efficiency than a specialist in any specific context. I think the issue is real, but is high on CCP's list of development priorities already. IMO this discussion would be better used to discuss the specific learning paths that might reasonably be adjusted in the next major update.

Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.13 16:42:00 - [311] Just a few observations... Originally by: Elena Laskova We know OP is partly right for two reasons: 1. CCP are removing more and more of the L5 pre-reqs for mid-level skills and equipment. The only relaxing of prerequisites was for equipment that either shifted focus from an obscure purpose optional later on to a newcomer-accessible ISK-making alternative (archeology or hacking in exploration content) or was deemed a necessary mechanic to be used by a wider variety of pilots (thermodynamics)... and earlier on (a lot earlier on) the prerequisite relaxation for advanced learning skills (which were, to some degree, a minor thorn in CCP's side as far as potential fast growth of newcomers), with the recently added "double speed" early SP gain. NONE of those things were made so that "new players can get more SP than older players", all of that was put into place so that certain areas of the game become available earlier. Guess who actually took most advantage from all those changes ? Yup, correct, older experienced players creating fresh alts, that's who. Quote: 2. High-SP characters are easy to value, since there's an active market. We can see what they a worth in gaming time (via a simple assuption about earing rates from grinding ISK) and in RL money, since there is also a indirect ISk to RL dollar market. So... when I see a 40 mil SP pilot (most likely over 2 years of character life) going for 5 bil starting bid with 8 bil buyout, what exactly DOES that say ? That character took probably up to 30 months to train, one PLEX costs let's say 280 mil ISK (it was actually more expensive in the past), so that's over 8 bil ISK just in EQUIVALENT SUBSCRIPTION COST. Quote: The conclusion is obvious: Noit surprisingly, EvE players strongly believe low-SP chatracters are less capable than high-SP characters. When somebody sells something below the price it takes to make, after also taking a very long time to make, that doesn't exactly scream "this is valuable to me", quite the opposite, it screams "I want to recover at least part of my investment". ___ ...but on the rest of your post - yeah, you're generally right. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Elena Laskova	Posted - 2010.02.13 17:09:00 - [312] Akira I can't say I've looked closely at the character trading market, but I'd expect the sale price of a character to discount for the utility of having an extra character available whle it was trained. If I was preparing a character for sale, I'd use the character in a necessary role (such as scouting and/or mining alt) "to pay the bills", so a significant part of the cost would have been recovered before the sale.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.13 17:51:00 - [313] A other alternitive would be allow a 2nd toon to train on the same account as your main. And noone can convince me this is not a need look at the % of multiable account users.
Wesfahrn WESCORP 2.0	Posted - 2010.02.13 17:58:00 - [314] Edited by: Wesfahrn on 13/02/2010 18:02:51 Whats that good old saying? Adapt or die? :)
Alhambra Trellane Harbingers of Chaos Inc. Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.02.13 19:15:00 - [315] is bad thread imo
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.13 19:24:00 - [316] Originally by: Elena Laskova I can't say I've looked closely at the character trading market, but I'd expect the sale price of a character to discount for the utility of having an extra character available whle it was trained. If I was preparing a character for sale, I'd use the character in a necessary role (such as scouting and/or mining alt) "to pay the bills", so a significant part of the cost would have been recovered before the sale. ...because you're going to keep training a "scout alt" for 2 years, right ? If people would place any serious significance on having a high-SP total, given the fact the EVE population keeps growing, the average price a high-SP character goes for should be noticeably above the cost of getting the character to that point. You know, cost expressed in equivalent ISK cost of PLEX/GTC which would have been needed over the character's lifetime plus ISK cost of trained skills plus ISK cost of implants, on top of optional additional ISK for various things like high standings, jumpclones, reputation or whatnot, PLUS THE EQUIVALENT ISK COST OF THE TRANSFER FEE. Since the average sales price of characters is usually noticeably BELOW even just the equivalent ISK of the subscription time, one can only conclude that generally, people DO NOT consider JUST HAVING a high SP count all that important. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp	Posted - 2010.02.13 20:13:00 - [317] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester No my level 5 skills are not worthless how ever say we are both flying frigates tech two tech two fits and its a stale mate and you dock up. Now you come out and undock in a domi tech tech 2 drones now my frigate is not gonna win. Now lets say i do the same it becomes a stale mate you dock up undock in an other ship suited to take out the domi with drones ect ect in the end the more versatile play will have the upper hand is all i'm saying. lol. i dont think you understand how this game works at all. ----------------------------------------------- Free Trade Corp - Flash page
Trader20	Posted - 2010.02.13 23:01:00 - [318] All u old players just got trolled, look who's the noobies now
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.13 23:29:00 - [319] Originally by: Trader20 All u old players just got trolled, look who's the noobies now When you can explain the radical difference between responding seriously as if it was not a troll to somebody you are almost certainly is a troll because it gives all other new players stupid ideas, and actually falling for a troll, THEN you can laugh. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Elena Laskova	Posted - 2010.02.14 00:03:00 - [320] Akita I've been assuming that it's not new players that buy a multi-billion-ISK characters. There will be a few IRL rich eople who do so I suppose, but I think most people will walk away from a game that has an up-front cost in the hundreds of USD. The laws of economics tell us that in a free market (such as the character and PLEX markets in EvE), on average supply and demand will accurately reflect the human element, and will balance out at the "correct" price. The puzzle isn't to decide if the price is correct - we know that. It's to explain why. The only thing I can think of which could seriously "mess up" the internal character-for-ISK market is if there are a significant number of experienced players leaving the game and selling their characters directly for RL cash.

Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.14 01:05:00 - [321] Originally by: Trader20 All u old players just got trolled, look who's the noobies now When you can actually type english instead of text speak, then we might consider you as more than a 12 year old. Does mummy know you're using her account?
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Fyretracker Heavy Industries	Posted - 2010.02.14 01:31:00 - [322] if you played WoW for a long time you should hardly say EVE has a bad gap, low SP players in EVE call em equal to say a level 40 in WoW. put 10 of them against an 80(the high SP player with Tech II and faction gadgets and ISK up to their highest cargo hold). but guess what, in EVE those 10 players if they do their research and build the right fleet can make that high SP player loose a load more ISK then all of them combined just risked. EVE contains some of the greatest equalizers for lower SP players, things like E-War ships as a fine example.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 01:45:00 - [323] Originally by: Elena Laskova Akita I've been assuming that it's not new players that buy a multi-billion-ISK characters. There will be a few IRL rich eople who do so I suppose, but I think most people will walk away from a game that has an up-front cost in the hundreds of USD. The problem is not with brand new people buying old characters for RL cash (as you've pointed out, that seldom happens), it's with newbies that might end up believing that THAT would be what they would have to do in order "to have a chance" at... whatever they think they have no chance at with low SP. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.14 01:52:00 - [324] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Elena Laskova Akita I've been assuming that it's not new players that buy a multi-billion-ISK characters. There will be a few IRL rich eople who do so I suppose, but I think most people will walk away from a game that has an up-front cost in the hundreds of USD. The problem is not with brand new people buying old characters for RL cash (as you've pointed out, that seldom happens), it's with newbies that might end up believing that THAT would be what they would have to do in order "to have a chance" at... whatever they think they have no chance at with low SP. Which is why I dislike people stating that as a solution, especially when there is no problem in the first place. Anyway the Op is a troll, he has not replied to one point raised and what he says gets more nuts every page. I've only posted here because new players may actually believe the stuff he is saying. But as they say, there is one born every day and people believe the dumbest things despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Clementina Eye of God	Posted - 2010.02.14 02:53:00 - [325] The Original Poster is a blooming idiot. The explaination as to why is within the previous posts. I'm going to talk about prices for characters, which is a far more interesting topic. I was under the impression that when people purchased a character that they purchased 'alts' instead of 'mains', and that furthermore alts tend to be specalized characters whereas mains tend to be generalized characters. From there because characters are purchased for their specalization, that purchasers of characters pay for the skillpoints that are actually aligned to the specalization. For example a character with 40 million skillpoints and 35 million in science (or mining or any other disipline) is worth more than a character with 40 million skillpoints and 20 million in science. If rational people are buying alts, a character should be bought by the person who's purpose for it would use the most skillpoints, since they will also be willing to bid the most. Meaning also that a character with a high skillpoint total and a wide range of skills is worth as much as a character with a lower skillpoint total and a more focused range of skills. An alt with 40 million skillpoints and 20 mil in science, 10 mil in PvP, and 10 mil mining is worth as much as a character with 20 million in science. Also I imagine that high-skillpoint non-battleship or capital PvP alts trade at a discount of some sort. There probably is no such discount for high-skillpoint characters for non-PvP roles. Other, non-skillpoint things like infamous reputation and physical attrativeness probably effect price also. But I am speculating and don't have data to back any of that up. I also don't buy characters or sell them as a general rule.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 03:52:00 - [326] OK if I am wrong about this why is there even a character bazar where characters do sell for billions of isk if they have high sp. If a low sp toon is every bit as good as a high sp toon as long as you got the skill to play the game why bother buying a high sp character?
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2010.02.14 04:11:00 - [327] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester OK if I am wrong about this why is there even a character bazar where characters do sell for billions of isk if they have high sp. If a low sp toon is every bit as good as a high sp toon as long as you got the skill to play the game why bother buying a high sp character? You're trying too hard. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 04:55:00 - [328] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester OK if I am wrong about this why is there even a character bazar where characters do sell for billions of isk if they have high sp. If a low sp toon is every bit as good as a high sp toon as long as you got the skill to play the game why bother buying a high sp character? You're trying too hard. No this is a valid point if a low sp character is every bit as good as a higher sp character with the proper player skill and i can find at least 15 times in this thread alone where that was stated. Why bother buying characters with high sp ??? Don't try and avoid the question
Wakboth	Posted - 2010.02.14 04:55:00 - [329] I think that the Eve xp training is quite balanced. So the OP said that a new player can't be efficient toward a veteran. I remember when i started Eve in 2004. We had only 50K SP randomly spent in quite random skills. Now you get 800K and a bonus until 1.6M. We hadn't implants, +1 were expensive, and +3 were only wear by a few rich pilots. And nobody wanted to risk this when you couldn't even warp to 0 (try to travel through low sec using only warp to 15km, and tell me how much ships you lost ) We hadn't "advanced" learning skills. The biggest ship i saw was a Scorpion, but it was far more expensive, since missions lvl 4 didn't exist, and lvl 3 were used to be completed in gang. I think i had to wait about 3 years to get into a BS. Nowadays, you can get in an efficient BS in 6 month (and i don't mean people who get into a Raven with only 2 months, because this is often unefficient). So, ok, let's change the XP system, but i want it from the beginning, because i don't know why i should have flied for 3 years in an Osprey (later i could fly with a Ferox when they appear, Drake was much later) when a newbie don't need to fly it for 3 months now. Again, and to agree with Akita, SP aren't the main purpose in this game, and to prove it, i can fight with my characters : my main started in April 2004, so it's almost 6 yo, my pvp alt character started in 2008, and i can tell you that if they are fighting together, the character from 2008 will win EVERY fights. You are talking about pvp, in 1 month you can be efficient in a T1 frig, in few monthes, you can fly decently intys and/or AF (flying them with perfect skills is much longer though), but my main character just lost its CNR because i made a stupid mistake, i had about 3 or 4 times SP than my aggressor.... My opinion is that if he thought like you are doing, he won't have engaged me....and he wouldn't have a nice KM now. You think veterans aren't hardcore gaming like you? I didn't count hours on my computer flying in Eve, but i think it's far much than you (i can spent the whole night, and see the sun and think "damned, it's going to be hard today" ^^). I don't have so much SP than someone who only log for skills, but i could pay my implants, i could pay my skills and boats. The longer you play, more xp you get? Nice idea ! I often log only for chat and waiting in station. Damn, you already answered it, well instead of waiting in station, i would be in a POS bubble, cloaked in a dead end system or waiting in a safe spot in Jita. The only thing i agree with the OP is about character trading, i found that not very "roleplaying". About the system : Quote: Now my subject line is new vs. old players the reason I said this is one of two things are going to happen one they keep the current system in place and will in turn lose a lot of the new hard core players (some will stay) or two they revamp it in some way to allow players like my self to at least catch up a little to vet players in SP so I can use the better ships and tech 2 equips and in turn will have a few of the vet players rage quit the game and again some will stay. Do you know that Eve is the MMORPG with the longer lifespan per player? Do you know that Eve is increasing its population since about 7 years? In Wow, you get more and more people, but early players are all gone, people play for 2 or 3 years then leave and more new players are coming. In Eve, players are staying, even when they left, they come back later. It works since 7 years, and you think you can see the future : it will change now because you said it? I think this system won't change, and i will adapt. If it becomes another grinding game (you told about Wow, i remember Burning Crusade launch, 1st player lvl 70 in less than 24h, i don't want to see that here. If you want to evolve,then play and learn, you don't need more SP. Get a T2 ship, i will show you T1 can kill you.
Wakboth	Posted - 2010.02.14 05:02:00 - [330] Quote: No this is a valid point if a low sp character is every bit as good as a higher sp character with the proper player skill and i can find at least 15 times in this thread alone where that was stated. Why bother buying characters with high sp ??? Don't try and avoid the question That's a valid question : why? There is no reason in my mind. That's why i played for 1 year with a noob character when i had my 5 yo. And i don't mean playing one and just changing skills for alt, my pvp alt did the cosmos missions and raised its standings alone. I could have bought a 20M alt with my main's money, but the character wouldn't have been "mine". And i won't sell both, if i stop this game one day, my characters will die at this moment.

Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.14 05:20:00 - [331] Edited by: Zartanic on 14/02/2010 05:21:57 Originally by: Wakboth Quote: No this is a valid point if a low sp character is every bit as good as a higher sp character with the proper player skill and i can find at least 15 times in this thread alone where that was stated. Why bother buying characters with high sp ??? Don't try and avoid the question That's a valid question : why? There is no reason in my mind. That's why i played for 1 year with a noob character when i had my 5 yo. And i don't mean playing one and just changing skills for alt, my pvp alt did the cosmos missions and raised its standings alone. I could have bought a 20M alt with my main's money, but the character wouldn't have been "mine". And i won't sell both, if i stop this game one day, my characters will die at this moment. It may be a valid question and it's already been answered, it's also a strawman and irrelevant to his point, which he keeps changing anyway. The Op is trolling and ignoring answers he does not like, which is most of them. He is also someone who gets an idea stuck in his head and is incapable of seeing that reasons for anything in life can be numerous and complex. He was certainly never a hard core player in any game as that needs study, listening to others, actual practise in the game and understanding new concepts and game mechanics. Exactly how EVE rewards players who actually play the game. He was just a grinder who happened to be logged into a game for long hours tagging on to those who did know what to do at best while seeing but not learning. He would have lasted 5 minutes in my 'corp' of the last game I played. Players like him were removed fast as they were a liability although he would have failed the interview anyway through lack of basic knowledge and inability to grasp simple concepts.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 05:50:00 - [332] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester OK if I am wrong about this why is there even a character bazar where characters do sell for billions of isk if they have high sp. If a low sp toon is every bit as good as a high sp toon as long as you got the skill to play the game why bother buying a high sp character? You're trying too hard. No this is a valid point if a low sp character is every bit as good as a higher sp character with the proper player skill and i can find at least 15 times in this thread alone where that was stated. Why bother buying characters with high sp ??? Don't try and avoid the question Nobody said a low-SP character is every bit as good as a high-SP character. All people have said a high-SP character is NOT the one and only prerequisite for success in the EVE world. There's a small but subtle difference, and since you don't get "in your face and bluntly", how could we ever expect you to understand subtle differences ? A high-SP character is incredibly better compared to a starter-SP character, that much is true, and that wasn't being denied nor hidden at all. However, when compared to a moderate-to-low-SP character, that high-SP character suddenly becomes... not that impressive anymore. In fact, if the moderate-to-low-SP character is specialized in the ship he flies, the high-SP-character becomes "not really that big of a deal" in the larger scheme of things, especially if HIS training isn't particularly focused on the ship HE flies. And no, your previous argument of "docking up and undocking in something to combat you specifically" doesn't hold much water... in fact, it only BARELY holds any water whatsoever for lame highsec dock-game wars, which... well, let's just pretend for the sake of our collective sanity people wouldn't want to be involved in them. On the other hand, take the precise example of, say, Meta-4 modules ("best named") compared to Meta-5 modules (Tech 2) and Meta-6 modules ("(navy) faction"). Tech2 modules are usually the hardest to fit (both skill and PG/CPU-wise), but they are somewhat better-performing compared to best named (merely by the bonus granted by the spec skill). For very often used modules (weapons, usually, especially those useful in PvE), you will notice that the best-named variant has vastly increased prices compared to the T2 variant, in spite of that. At the same time, navy faction modules are barely better performing compared to T2 (the difference becomes almost minimal in the proper circumstances when T2 ammo is used in the T2 weapons), but are insanely more pricey compared to the T2 version or the best named version, let alone the Meta-3 version. At least faction modules usually have an excuse for that - that's roughly how much they "cost" in terms of LP/ISK when purchased from LP-shops... but for things in incredibly high demand (like, say, heavy missile launchers), even the meta-3 version can be very expensive. It is not at all uncommon to pay anywhere from x10 to over x100 price for merely a 15% to 25% increase in effectiveness. This is one critical factor you have to remember, and not even for that long since we're getting to it again soon. Now, back to the character sales issues. MOST HIGH-SP CHARACTERS SELL FOR PRICES UNDER THE TOTAL ISK THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN NECESSARY TO GROW THEM TO THAT SPECIFIC SP TOTAL. Given the previous thing you should have remembered, one can only conclude that people don't really regard high-SP characters as all that valuable, but merely as things that have a high generation cost, and the sales price represents an attempt to recover (at least partially) the creation cost. If they really regarded them as oh-so-valuable, they'd never part with them for anything even close to the costs involved, but instead demand much more. THEY ARE NOT DOING THAT ! Ergo, high SP is "meh". _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 06:33:00 - [333] Ok you did it again you compltetly avoided what i asked. Never once did i ask why people sell high sp toons for the cost it would have been to make it i asked WHY DO PEOPLE >>>>BUY<<<<< HIGH SP TOONS INSTEAD OF JUST MAKING A LOW SP ALT AND DOING IT THEM SELF? And im not looking for the smart ass reply of the very few people who do this, the number of character buyers i am sure out weighs the number of people who do it all over again with an alt. You think you have torn my agrument apart when all you have done is nitpick a sentence or two within each of my post and followed it with a question of your own. And i will state it again for the people who have failed to read this thread about gaining sp while active. and replied with well i'll stay docked or i'll stay in a pos bubble. Very simple mechanics to implement an afk timer as well as identify Macro users. You people seems to think they manually identify macro users unless they are complete fail ccp has got a system in place to reconize programs running on their client hell even simple FPS games have this ability while online. As far as eve having the most long term user subs please provide proof of this or don't use it as an agrument i could just as well say they have the least of any game out. I could also argue that they are counting characters that have been transfered from account to account as long time subs when in fact a 5+ year old toon could have transfered accounts serveral times and stayed on an account no longer than 12 months at a time. As far as continued growth of the game more and more people are going from 1 account to 2 from two to 3 and on up i already know people with 5 or so accounts this does not count as population growth 1 player with 5 accounts is still one player. Now this game has 300k some subs first including multible accounts say 25 % of these are 2 account users (i am sure it is much higher than that when you take into account the 3,4,5 account users) That would put the numbers around 250k players and thats being generous as the most ive even seen online at any given time has just scratched the surface of 50k. This number even at the 300k mark doesn't touch the likes of even old school games like EQ lineage 1,2 ect. Also some where in this post someone claimed that ccp said accounts do not last longer than a year on avgerage. so don't try to toss out statments like oldest accounts longest subs and continued growth. even games that failed like warhammer and AOC tops eve subs at its best. now don't take this as me calling it a bad game but that agrument is just very poor. in the words of the human torch FLAME ON
Slade Hoo Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2010.02.14 06:47:00 - [334] post with your main or gtfo ------ I'm just a lonely pirate on my way to ascension
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 06:49:00 - [335] Edited by: Akita T on 14/02/2010 06:56:15 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester WHY DO PEOPLE >>>>BUY<<<<< HIGH SP TOONS INSTEAD OF JUST MAKING A LOW SP ALT AND DOING IT THEM SELF? BECAUSE IT'S CHEAPER THAN DOING IT YOURSELF AND ALSO INSTANT, YOU FREAKING MORON, THAT'S WHY ! And it has been answered without the cursing before, hopefully this time you'll get it. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester You people seems to think they manually identify macro users unless they are complete fail ccp has got a system in place to reconize programs running on their client hell even simple FPS games have this ability while online. WE KNOW THAT THEY MANUALLY IDENTIFY THEM, because unlike big-brotheresque publishers, CCP know that a big chunk of EVE players would not stand for invasive "anti-cheat" measures (especially since, let's face it, the potential for end-user damage in case the CCP-made theoretical "spyware" you are proposing could be indescribable). _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Atticus Fynch	Posted - 2010.02.14 06:50:00 - [336] I haven't read the whole thread, but one thing old players have over new ones: T2 BPOs. Once given out by lottery, now only available (for billions) by purchase only. This alone gives old players a BIG advantage.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 07:10:00 - [337] Originally by: Atticus Fynch I haven't read the whole thread, but one thing old players have over new ones: T2 BPOs. Once given out by lottery, now only available (for billions) by purchase only. This alone gives old players a BIG advantage. Yeah, SOUNDS all completely unfair and whatnot the first time you hear about that... ...except for the part where pretty much all the good ones are no longer in the hands of the persons that received them initially, so whoever has them now actually EARNED them ...and the part where the introduction of the invention mechanic radically cut down their potential profit from the good old days _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Elena Laskova	Posted - 2010.02.14 07:26:00 - [338] Edited by: Elena Laskova on 14/02/2010 07:29:29 The issue raised by OP is real, and IMO it's well worth discussing. Like most EvE players I don't agree with OP's proposed solution. But that's a different matter altogether. Every player new to an established MMO should ask themselves "can I ever catch up to the people who have been playing for years?". This means in player skill, in in-game capabilities (SP in EvE), economically (ISK per hour in EvE), socially (get access to a good 0.0 Corp), etc. If the answer is "no" for that person, the game is not worth joining. Since it's suddenly popular to compare with WoW, let's look at some of the factoids which have been presented in this very thread: * 20 L10 WoW players have no chance against a max-level player * At the start of Burning Crusade (expansion before the current one) the maximum level could be achieved in a few days. We can deduce that EvE-related arguments based on the first WoW point above are cheap lies, since the situation described occurs for a vanishingly small part of the first few day's play. I have a challenge for the rest of you: explain, politely and rationally, with no cheap lies, no unjustified denial, no ad hominem attacks, no irrelevant WoW-nonsense, why a new player has no reason to be concerned that they'll never catch up. And don't forget to include something on CCP's intentions, because as someone has (finally) pointed out, players need to be very sure CCP will never pull another stupid trick like T2 BPOs. Perhaps you could explain how a new player can get to the point where they can fly a T3 ship while obeying the rule "don't fly what you can't afford to lose".
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 07:45:00 - [339] Originally by: Elena Laskova Edited by: Elena Laskova on 14/02/2010 07:29:29 The issue raised by OP is real, and IMO it's well worth discussing. Like most EvE players I don't agree with OP's proposed solution. But that's a different matter altogether. Every player new to an established MMO should ask themselves "can I ever catch up to the people who have been playing for years?". This means in player skill, in in-game capabilities (SP in EvE), economically (ISK per hour in EvE), socially (get access to a good 0.0 Corp), etc. If the answer is "no" for that person, the game is not worth joining. Since it's suddenly popular to compare with WoW, let's look at some of the factoids which have been presented in this very thread: * 20 L10 WoW players have no chance against a max-level player * At the start of Burning Crusade (expansion before the current one) the maximum level could be achieved in a few days. We can deduce that EvE-related arguments based on the first WoW point above are cheap lies, since the situation described occurs for a vanishingly small part of the first few day's play. I have a challenge for the rest of you: explain, politely and rationally, with no cheap lies, no unjustified denial, no ad hominem attacks, no irrelevant WoW-nonsense, why a new player has no reason to be concerned that they'll never catch up. And don't forget to include something on CCP's intentions, because as someone has (finally) pointed out, players need to be very sure CCP will never pull another stupid trick like T2 BPOs. Perhaps you could explain how a new player can get to the point where they can fly a T3 ship while obeying the rule "don't fly what you can't afford to lose". ^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^ thank you for seeing my point
Tason Hyena Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.14 07:51:00 - [340] They don't need to catch up because the amount of skills you need to do the action you want is actually small. High SP just does 1 of two things: 1) makes you more versatile 2) gives you access to the high-end play you could call endgame: leading alliances, piloting supercapitals, etc. With 2 you might have a point if 2 didnt also require a lot from the player as well in time and isk. If you want to do a single task, you can be good at it quickly, and high sp people wont have that much of an advantage over you.

Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.02.14 07:56:00 - [341] You think that SP should be related to time you spend in game. I believe the system is better the way it is. Since we believe polar opposites of the same discussion lets both stop posting about it to even things out. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 08:00:00 - [342] Elena Laskova I am willing to bet no one will give a direct response to your challenge you are jsut gonna get more and more of "they dont need to catch up" " it's skill not sp" How many low sp alliances / corps hold 00 space?
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.02.14 08:03:00 - [343] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Elena Laskova I am willing to bet no one will give a direct response to your challenge you are jsut gonna get more and more of "they dont need to catch up" " it's skill not sp" How many low sp alliances / corps hold 00 space? it's funny watching you clutch to the ONE person who gave you a favorable response. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 08:13:00 - [344] Originally by: Elena Laskova Since it's suddenly popular to compare with WoW, let's look at some of the factoids which have been presented in this very thread: * 20 L10 WoW players have no chance against a max-level player * At the start of Burning Crusade (expansion before the current one) the maximum level could be achieved in a few days. We can deduce that EvE-related arguments based on the first WoW point above are cheap lies, since the situation described occurs for a vanishingly small part of the first few day's play. When I started, it took me well over 2 months to go past 2 mil SP, and could barely afford a lousy Ferox to run L2s in some time in the 3rd month... all of that due to how character starter SP was set up, due to the way the learning skills used to work, due to how expensive all implants were, due to the nearly non-existing "new player experience" and last but not least due to how much weaker player ships used to be compared to NPCs. Mind you, that was not my first attempt at the game, it was my 7th (or was it 8th?) trial account, the one I was finally satisfied with, and proceeded to activate it... and it's been active ever since. Half a year ago, as I have previously mentioned on one of the previous pages, I created an "experimental" alt for the sole purpose of seeing just how different the new players have it these days. Not only did I go past 2 mil SP in the first month, but I also had basically next to no problems financially speaking. By the end of the third week, I was radically better off than my main was by the end of its third month. Probably not exactly the same thing, but a very similar approach - the game was made noticeably easier at the lower levels, vastly accelerating new player development compared to what used to be the norm a long time ago. Also, back on the WoW comparison train, it was more like "10x L40+ in greens vs one L80 in FOTM arena gear", so how about that ? Quote: I have a challenge for the rest of you: explain, politely and rationally, with no cheap lies, no unjustified denial, no ad hominem attacks, no irrelevant WoW-nonsense, why a new player has no reason to be concerned that they'll never catch up. Has been already explained. For any given ship, there's a limited amount of skills that are relevant. For any given skill, you can not go beyond L5. Therefore, for any specific ship, a new player will EVENTUALLY catch up with a very old player. In fact, by heavy specialisation, a new player could actually surpass most older players, because most older players seldom max out all relevant skills for the simple reason of "it's just not worth the time for me", preferring to branch out and try many different ships, or different professions. Of course, a disorganized and undecided new player will always remain behind overall. Quote: And don't forget to include something on CCP's intentions, because as someone has (finally) pointed out, players need to be very sure CCP will never pull another stupid trick like T2 BPOs. Perhaps you could explain how a new player can get to the point where they can fly a T3 ship while obeying the rule "don't fly what you can't afford to lose". There was this little experiment over in MD not that long ago, where a trading veteran attempted to see just how much ISK he could make only by trading from the measly 5000 ISK you're given at the start, with absolutely no help whatsoever. His "goal" was 1 bil ISK by the end of the month. He "only" made it a bit past half a billion ISK by the end of the first month, and that was just actual ISK remaining, because he spent some of it on skills, implants and other "necessities". So... SP-wise ? For any specific task, via specialisation, catching up ? Check. ISK-wise ? With brains and patience, check. Social-wise ? Most corps are STARVING for new blood, some will even take 15-day newbies and both train and support them just to keep them. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 08:13:00 - [345] Originally by: Gorefacer Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Elena Laskova I am willing to bet no one will give a direct response to your challenge you are jsut gonna get more and more of "they dont need to catch up" " it's skill not sp" How many low sp alliances / corps hold 00 space? it's funny watching you clutch to the ONE person who gave you a favorable response. It's funny no watching people not have a valid response as to why new players should not worry about catching up
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 08:19:00 - [346] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester How many low sp alliances / corps hold 00 space? Ever heard of an alliance called GOONSWARM ?!? They were notorious for starting off en-masse as a bunch of newbies in T1 frigates, practically "marching to the slaughter" if you were to believe the accounts of their enemies. Well, these atrociously-low-SP newbies in their dirt-cheap ships very soon became a force to be reckoned with, managing to not just hold their own against alliances with a heavy high-SP pilot count, but eventually driving them out of their home regions via persistence, political machinations, social engineering and possibly just a bit of luck. Nowadays, even after a recently dealt heavy blow... by their own "commander in chief", no less... they are still a force to be reckoned with. Those are the kind of people you claim would have had no chances. If anybody is the counter-proof to your ridiculous thread, it's the Goons. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 08:22:00 - [347] I CAN TYPE IT CAPS BECAUSE I THINK IT PROVES MY POINT BETTER
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 08:24:00 - [348] Edited by: Akita T on 14/02/2010 08:25:59 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I CAN TYPE IT CAPS BECAUSE I THINK IT PROVES MY POINT BETTER And you continue to ignore just about every counter-argument as if none was ever made. You're not trying to have a reasonable debate, you're just playing back bits and pieces of the broken record which is your "new players have no chance" preconception. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.14 08:43:00 - [349] how the hell did this troll**** get to 12 pages
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 08:44:00 - [350] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton how the hell did this troll**** get to 12 pages Because when somebody is wrong on the internets... _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _

Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.14 08:46:00 - [351] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton how the hell did this troll**** get to 12 pages Because when somebody is wrong on the internets... but when it is so obvious you have let me down Akita T
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 08:52:00 - [352] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton but when it is so obvious Obvious to me, you or anybody that's been playing for a while without wownerdragequitting, sure. Not so obvious at all to genuine newcomers, quite the opposite, they'd take it seriously, because at first glimpse, this is EXACTLY how EVE looks like, especially to people coming from "grindtastic" MMOs. You can "beat" trolls in two ways : either ignoring them, or with fire. Some trolls, like this one, you just can't ignore, even if you're almost completely certain they're trolls. Then, there's always that ever so slight chance they're not trolls, but genuine morons. Either way, in cases like this, the only appropriate response is "burn it with fire". _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Parvulus Dei	Posted - 2010.02.14 08:52:00 - [353] I know I'm being trolled here... But I just can't help it. However I see right through your fault here. EVE unlike other mmos does not have a endgame, EVE is about the Journey with many different paths and styles of play. For that reason EVE requires a completely different mindset. That being said EVE has ALOT of problems and I truly mean that, However the skill gap, Vets verses Rookies abilities is not one of them. OP you also mentioned if Low SP alliances/corps could hold 0.0 space. As much as I hate to admit look at goonswarm for example, they are nothing more then a bunch of meme spewing ***gots and trolls. Yet they had huge portions of space and brought people to their knees with nothing more then low SP toons and cheap low end crap. However I am willing to debate and I am also curious on the honest feelings from people in "high end alliances" like IT and Atlas and if you ever had any doubts on the new player vs Vet gap and it's fairness.
Grarr Dexx Amarr GK inc. Panda Team	Posted - 2010.02.14 09:09:00 - [354] Stop **ing posting in this thread. The OP is an ignorant **** that grasps at straws at any opportunity. ___
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 09:15:00 - [355] If the higher sp toons do not have an edge why are you guys fighting so hard to make sure you keep it?? I mean after all noobs like me would just loose out expensive ships right So whats the big deal let us noobs have a chance to close the total sp gap between new and old players. This should make it more fun for you uber leet eve is so more uber complex then anything in the world vets you people already stated that you love taking out noobs with expensive ships. So please tell my why almost 11k views and over 300 replies to this if its no big deal just let us close the total sp gap cus total sp is no big deal anyways.. So again why are you guys fighting so hard to make sure it doesn't change your leet skills would surly out do mine because my total sp won't matter and it will boil down to me being a noob with an expensive ship. And if you think this is a troll you don't need to post go find something else to do go log into eve and hone those skills and make that isk. EVE looks this way at first glance BECAUSE IT IS this way if it wasn't these people would not be fighting so hard to keep us new players from closing the total sp gap.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 09:33:00 - [356] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester blah blah blah High SP counts, just like faction ships, officer gear, medals, certificates, killboard ratios and whatnot are mainly STATUS SYMBOLS. Yes, they do matter somewhat, but they're not terribly important compared to the effort that was necessary to get them. It's the perfect trade-off : * older players are happy a longer time because they have something to point at and go "look at this big number, this is mine, I'm content with my achievements", * average-age players are happy longer because they can already play almost on even footing with the older players, still having some skill levels that might make a difference in some situations to train for * and newer players are happy because in numbers they can already make a difference even if solo they would be slaughtered, and they will soon become average-age players so they have that to look forward to too. What you seem to be proposing is to rip any sense of accomplishment from older players (because that's about all that high SP count really means, a kind of a "badge of honour") for no good reason at all, radically reduce the length of time you spend at average SP counts, and all but eliminate the early stages of low-SP, where most of the ACTUAL learning takes place in EVE. You're proposing to fast-track everybody into a situation where they can use expensive stuff they're much more likely to lose than be able to properly use, suffering from high death penalty (and die they will, in droves, because they lack experience) and plateauing very early on to a lack of easy temporary goals to look forward too, most of them unable to come to the conclusion they have to start setting their own goals. ___ Hey, how about we make it so there are no SP at all, and everybody can use anything to full effect from day one ? I mean, who cares most people will complain there's no progress to be had, and that they'd rather play wow instead, if that makes newcomers happy for all the 1-2 months they'll stay ? Sure, let's also make it so that ISK doesn't matter either, give everybody everything from the get go ! Oh, oh, I know, how about we keep almost everything the way it is now, but we reset the servers every 3 months or so ! Nahh, on second thought, we should probably go play counter-strike instead. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.14 09:45:00 - [357] can I get a tl;dr on the op? all I got out of it was I wanna 40h a week for 2 years and be uber... hell 40h a week for 2 years and you should be able to buy like 10 years worth of sp. plus all the people that already 40h a week will still be lightyears ahead of you.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 09:52:00 - [358] Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 14/02/2010 09:54:51 Quote: It's the perfect trade-off : * older players are happy a longer time because they have something to point at and go "look at this big number, this is mine, I'm content with my achievements", * average-age players are happy longer because they can already play almost on even footing with the older players, still having some skill levels that might make a difference in some situations to train for * and newer players are happy because in numbers they can already make a difference even if solo they would be slaughtered, and they will soon become average-age players so they have that to look forward to too. This is what is called an Infinite_regress Where as the oldest player will always be on top the average player will become the older player the new player will become the average player and a new string of new players come in. Then we have the oldest oldest player than an older player than an old play and average player then still more new players see this will continue to be a problem every day new players join this regress is happening making the gap wider and wider new players are not getting any edge but every day new players start this gap widens. It will only get worse with time when tech two titans get release or any thing like it in the future because you know damn well the older players will want something beter than the titan as time goes on and only the oldest oldest players have the ability to use them and its gonna take much more skilled and Versatile players sp wise to defend it. Like it or not one day the game will have to make a change it doesn't sound like CCP is intending to close the doors on this game anytime soon with all the new stuff in development. And i am sure they are losing more new player accounts then old player accounts due to the main subject of this entire post. Oh and i almost forgot no one ever said why a new player should not worry about catching older players in total sp and versatility not specialization
Avalon Champion Gene Works	Posted - 2010.02.14 09:57:00 - [359] Quote: Since it's suddenly popular to compare with WoW, let's look at some of the factoids which have been presented in this very thread: * 20 L10 WoW players have no chance against a max-level player * At the start of Burning Crusade (expansion before the current one) the maximum level could be achieved in a few days. We can deduce that EvE-related arguments based on the first WoW point above are cheap lies, since the situation described occurs for a vanishingly small part of the first few day's play. I have a challenge for the rest of you: explain, politely and rationally, with no cheap lies, no unjustified denial, no ad hominem attacks, no irrelevant WoW-nonsense, why a new player has no reason to be concerned that they'll never catch up. Elena, I'll take on your challenge to explain this. Lets take a 40mil sp player and a 4 mil SP player, flying cruisers, assume they are both flying T1 4 mil SP in a focused toon should be able to be there or there abouts on par with a 40mil player, in a T1 fit, T1 cruiser. the noob has 1.6 mil in spaceship (Racial Cruiser 4, Frig 4, and Speaceship 4), 400k in armour tanking skills (Armour Rep 4, Hull 4, and all 4 Armour comps at 4). Weapons wise, he has 1.5 mil in the weapons, Gunnary 5, Sharp shooter 4, Motion pred 4, Small and Med turret 4, Weapon Upgrade 4, Controlled 4. The other 300k is in support Engineering 4, Elecronics 4, and a few others that he started with and no learning (which contrary to popular belief ISNT a requirement). The 40mil SP player will have all those at 5, which gives him a marginal edge, in a T1 ship. In this scenario, the 40mil vet has an edge over the noob, in that he has better support skills, and also more knowledge of the game, however this can be mitigated with ship and ammo choices, and fits, or the Noob gets the drop on the higher SP player, eg the vet is semi afk at a gate camp, isnt paying attention as hes chatting with his corp mates or playing on the market with his alt. Now as the noob get towards 8mil sp (about 7 months in again assuming no Learning), it will be a fairly even match, with the noob being able to compete an a realatively even playing field. At 8 mil you should have the majority of your core supports to level 5, with some at level 4, T2 weapons to medium, T2 tank, cruiser and frig 5, with maybe T2 Assault frigs to 4, and BC 4. In that same time the vet may will have got 8 mil, but that could be in Capital skills, or have spent it on cross training for another races hull. Your question about T3, is spurious, but if the noob really wanted to he could be in a T2 cruiser within 6 months, as Akita has pointed out, a trader went from 5000 isk to 500mil in 1 month, granted he knew the game but even at 200mil a month is feasible. T3's have dropped in price, and can be set up for around 500mil for the hull and subsystems. The 'dont fly if you cant afford to loose it' referes to being able to replace the ship, I personally take the view, its a pixel ship, so what if i loose it, I'll save up and buy another, i aint going to cry about it. I hope this helps you understand.
Elena Laskova	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:03:00 - [360] OP has a valid question. It has not been fully addressed yet. Denying the existence of an issue doesn't address it. You have to prove that while the question is relevant and valid, the suggested negative consequence (new players can't catch up) isn't true. Let's look at another dimension: ISK. How long does it take from starting EvE to being able to fly a T2 hull with T2 fittings, whiling conforming to the rule "don't fly what you can't afford to lose"? "How Long" has two aspects: Elapsed time (which converts to SP) and playing time (required to establish the players ability to earn ISK, and to grind the ISK). Lets define "can afford to lose" as "a replacement can be purchased with the ISK obtained from 150 minutes or less of grinding ISK". Please note that answers like "Rifters are the good combat ships" are completely irrelevant. The question states T2 hull with T2 fittings. Note also that maximum mission income requires a Maurauder (with it's SP requirements and high cost) and quite a lot of standings grinding. Don't forget to factor such things into the answer.

Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:06:00 - [361] Edited by: Akita T on 14/02/2010 10:10:16 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Then we have the oldest oldest player than an older player than an old play and average player then still more new players see this will continue to be a problem every day new players join this regress is happening making the gap wider and wider new players are not getting any edge but every day new players start this gap widens. And some old players quit, other sell their alts, people that USED to be new players take over their characters, and guess what, all of a sudden that ceases to be an issue for such specialized characters. Nevermind the fact that the ship itself would probably cost 10 times as much as the character that would be needed to fly it. Of course, you, considering that purchasing an older character is CHEATING in spite of the fact on one hand you scream your lungs out it's not fair for old players to have high SP when new players can't while on the other hand not denying the fact it's cheaper and faster to buy rather than grow a high-SP character. Can you say "completely outrageous and misplaced entitlement" ? Quote: Like it or not one day the game will have to make a change it doesn't sound like CCP is intending to close the doors on this game anytime soon with all the new stuff in development. And i am sure they are losing more new player accounts then old player accounts due to the main subject of this entire post. Yet somehow, the total number of EVE paid accounts keeps constantly going up in spite of your doomsday predictions. Quote: Oh and i almost forgot no one ever said why a new player should not worry about catching older players in total sp and versatility not specialization So basically back to the entitlement issue. How about this, you tell me WHY SHOULD YOU be able to do absolutely everything an older player can do WITHOUT either spending the same amount of time as he did growing the character (you already need to spend less anyway) OR a sizeable chunk of ISK (which can be obtained by actively playing the game) ? If there's absolutely no difference between a brand new and a max-age pilot, what's the point of playing EVE instead of Counter-Strike or Risk or Chess or whatever else puts all players on a purely "real-world player skill" plane ? Originally by: Elena Laskova Let's look at another dimension: ISK. How long does it take from starting EvE to being able to fly a T2 hull with T2 fittings, whiling conforming to the rule "don't fly what you can't afford to lose"? 2 months Quote: "How Long" has two aspects: Elapsed time (which converts to SP) and playing time (required to establish the players ability to earn ISK, and to grind the ISK). 2 months. Quote: Lets define "can afford to lose" as "a replacement can be purchased with the ISK obtained from 150 minutes or less of grinding ISK". 2 months for the "or less" version. Quote: Please note that answers like "Rifters are the good combat ships" are completely irrelevant. The question states T2 hull with T2 fittings. A T2 frigate is still a T2 hull. Interceptor or AF, whatever. I'd still prefer a Drake though. Quote: Note also that maximum mission income requires a Maurauder (with it's SP requirements and high cost) and quite a lot of standings grinding. Don't forget to factor such things into the answer. L3s, Drake, 2 months tops, a lot more likely sooner. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:09:00 - [362] Originally by: Avalon Champion Quote: Since it's suddenly popular to compare with WoW, let's look at some of the factoids which have been presented in this very thread: * 20 L10 WoW players have no chance against a max-level player * At the start of Burning Crusade (expansion before the current one) the maximum level could be achieved in a few days. We can deduce that EvE-related arguments based on the first WoW point above are cheap lies, since the situation described occurs for a vanishingly small part of the first few day's play. I have a challenge for the rest of you: explain, politely and rationally, with no cheap lies, no unjustified denial, no ad hominem attacks, no irrelevant WoW-nonsense, why a new player has no reason to be concerned that they'll never catch up. Elena, I'll take on your challenge to explain this. Lets take a 40mil sp player and a 4 mil SP player, flying cruisers, assume they are both flying T1 4 mil SP in a focused toon should be able to be there or there abouts on par with a 40mil player, in a T1 fit, T1 cruiser. the noob has 1.6 mil in spaceship (Racial Cruiser 4, Frig 4, and Speaceship 4), 400k in armour tanking skills (Armour Rep 4, Hull 4, and all 4 Armour comps at 4). Weapons wise, he has 1.5 mil in the weapons, Gunnary 5, Sharp shooter 4, Motion pred 4, Small and Med turret 4, Weapon Upgrade 4, Controlled 4. The other 300k is in support Engineering 4, Elecronics 4, and a few others that he started with and no learning (which contrary to popular belief ISNT a requirement). The 40mil SP player will have all those at 5, which gives him a marginal edge, in a T1 ship. In this scenario, the 40mil vet has an edge over the noob, in that he has better support skills, and also more knowledge of the game, however this can be mitigated with ship and ammo choices, and fits, or the Noob gets the drop on the higher SP player, eg the vet is semi afk at a gate camp, isnt paying attention as hes chatting with his corp mates or playing on the market with his alt. Now as the noob get towards 8mil sp (about 7 months in again assuming no Learning), it will be a fairly even match, with the noob being able to compete an a realatively even playing field. At 8 mil you should have the majority of your core supports to level 5, with some at level 4, T2 weapons to medium, T2 tank, cruiser and frig 5, with maybe T2 Assault frigs to 4, and BC 4. In that same time the vet may will have got 8 mil, but that could be in Capital skills, or have spent it on cross training for another races hull. Your question about T3, is spurious, but if the noob really wanted to he could be in a T2 cruiser within 6 months, as Akita has pointed out, a trader went from 5000 isk to 500mil in 1 month, granted he knew the game but even at 200mil a month is feasible. T3's have dropped in price, and can be set up for around 500mil for the hull and subsystems. The 'dont fly if you cant afford to loose it' referes to being able to replace the ship, I personally take the view, its a pixel ship, so what if i loose it, I'll save up and buy another, i aint going to cry about it. I hope this helps you understand. OH i want to field this one please So the new player gets the jump on the vet player because he was semi afk and the new player wins this encounter. The older player at this point docks up gets into his battleship goes and hunts down the new play player unleashing his tech 2 drones and what not who wins now? Oh that's right the more versatile player. Also the older player had lvl 5 skills vs the newer plays lvl 4 skills This would only be a marginal edge if we are talking one or two skills but when we are talking 5-10% bonus over 16+ skills that is big gap to fill.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:11:00 - [363] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester OH i want to field this one please So the new player gets the jump on the vet player because he was semi afk and the new player wins this encounter. The older player at this point docks up gets into his battleship goes and hunts down the new play player unleashing his tech 2 drones and what not who wins now? The one that's not a total moron AND BRINGS FRIENDS. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Avalon Champion Gene Works	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:12:00 - [364] Originally by: Elena Laskova Note also that maximum mission income requires a Maurauder (with it's SP requirements and high cost) and quite a lot of standings grinding. Don't forget to factor such things into the answer. Not true you can make a significant sum playing the market, rather than grinding, as Akita mentioned the one guy in Market Discussions did the 5000isk to 1 bil in a month, and he earnt 500mil less skills in a month. Depending on your time on line and if you salvage and loot you can easily gain 200mil a week from missions in a non Maruarder, you need to be lucky with the missions of course, GE or AV 4 is 10mil mission bonus, 20mil Bounties, and about 10-20mil loot/salvage.
jodine	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:16:00 - [365] lol all i have to say is wow. chesterr is a ****** and dosnt get the point of eve, and you will not convince him. Let him quit who cares
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:16:00 - [366] Quote: Yet somehow, the total number of EVE paid accounts keeps constantly going up in spite of your doomsday predictions. I have already addressed this falsehood it is becoming more and more of a need to have multi accounts like I already stated before one player with 5 accounts is still one player this is falsified growth. Look who is ignoring logic now /facepalm
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp.	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:17:00 - [367] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester WHY DO PEOPLE >>>>BUY<<<<< HIGH SP TOONS INSTEAD OF JUST MAKING A LOW SP ALT AND DOING IT THEM SELF? Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I CAN TYPE IT CAPS BECAUSE I THINK IT PROVES MY POINT BETTER Ahem. Perhaps the buyer is an established high profile player in 0.0 and looking for another account that meets his needs without being called primary in fleets all the time. Perhaps the buyer sold his original main when he quit the game, and has come back but doesn't want to start from scratch again. Perhaps the buyer is a dedicated character trader, making isk through character trades, and is buying for the purpose of reselling. Perhaps the buyer believes that some change in game mechanics has nerfed his existing character's skill set, and is looking for one that flies different races, etc. Perhaps the buyer is looking for an additional alt character, one specialised in a certain area of the game that none of his existing characters are close to training for themselves. Perhaps the buyer is new to Eve, believes SP = automatic win, and would rather pay for a high SP character than learn the game with a new character as he goes. (These ones are in for a shock.) In most of these cases, it's because the buyer would rather spend the money than the time. In all of these cases, they are simply utilising a mechanic that CCP not only sanctions, but actually makes money with (character transfers between accounts cost $). Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Also some where in this post someone claimed that ccp said accounts do not last longer than a year on avgerage. so don't try to toss out statments like oldest accounts longest subs and continued growth. Do you even know what "average" means? Of course many players have continued well beyond that average, otherwise it wouldn't be called an average. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester even games that failed like warhammer and AOC have toped eve subs at its best. Eve hasn't yet reached its peak; it's still growing after nearly 7 years. How many other MMOs can claim that? /Ben
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:19:00 - [368] Edited by: Akita T on 14/02/2010 10:25:38 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: Yet somehow, the total number of EVE paid accounts keeps constantly going up in spite of your doomsday predictions. I have already addressed this falsehood it is becoming more and more of a need to have multi accounts like I already stated before one player with 5 accounts is still one player this is falsified growth. Look who is ignoring logic now /facepalm The average accounts-per-player number has remained relatively steady at somewhere between 1.2-1.3 accounts per player for several years now. Look who's ignoring FACTS now /facepalm Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: The one that's not a total moron AND BRINGS FRIENDS. The more versatile older player will likely have more friends who are more versatile to handle this Right, because highsec gankbear station-campers usually manage to hang on to a LOT of friends willing to help when needed at any random time of the day, and because every new player MUST play solo or in a very small and/or very inactive player corp... _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:28:00 - [369] Originally by: Elena Laskova I have a challenge for the rest of you: explain, politely and rationally, with no cheap lies, no unjustified denial, no ad hominem attacks, no irrelevant WoW-nonsense, why a new player has no reason to be concerned that they'll never catch up. First of all, why do you pose this challenge well after it has already been answered? But to repeat: because the domain-relevant SP for any given ship is highly limited, and you reach 80% of max effectiveness with that ship after accumulating merely 1/5th of the SP required to get to that limit. However, like the OP, you challenge is actually better answered by a counter-question: what do do think "catching up" entails given the EVE skill system? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:31:00 - [370] Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 14/02/2010 10:33:21 Quote: Eve hasn't yet reached its peak; it's still growing after nearly 7 years. How many other MMOs can claim that? 7 years and only 300k subs not saying much even if its peak was 600k that still doesn't touch the likes of any other major mmo if this is a claim to success lets do some simple math Lineage 2 at its peak was more then 4 mil subs lets say they sustained this for one year and then went under that's 4,000,000 x 15/month for 1 year $720,000,000 total now lets say eve sustained this 300k for the past 7 years at $15/month $378,000,000 total. Isn't every business measured in how much money it has earned? Quote: The average accounts-per-player number has remained relatively steady at somewhere between 1.2-1.3 accounts per player for several years now. Look who's ignoring FACTS now /facepalm Provide proof of this?

Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:35:00 - [371] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Isn't every business measured in how much money it has earned? Right, because I'd much rather eat rubbish junk food at McDonalds than delicious healthy treats at the corner bistro... Your arguments, they fail so hard... I don't think there's even a word to describe how hard. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:39:00 - [372] Edited by: Tippia on 14/02/2010 10:41:13 Originally by: Elena Laskova How long does it take from starting EvE to being able to fly a T2 hull with T2 fittings, whiling conforming to the rule "don't fly what you can't afford to lose"? […] Lets define "can afford to lose" as "a replacement can be purchased with the ISK obtained from 150 minutes or less of grinding ISK". […] Note also that maximum mission income requires a Maurauder (with it's SP requirements and high cost) and quite a lot of standings grinding. Don't forget to factor such things into the answer. So if I read this right, the question you want answered is: how long does it take for a new character to learn enough skills to replace a T2-fitted Marauder in 2.5h? In that case, the answer is simple: it's the same time it takes for a beta player to reach that level – infinite. You're talking about earning some 3–400M ISK/h, which is roughly 10+ the (not enitrely) agreed-upon income for a high-end highsec mission grind. So, you see, a new character is completely on par with one that's been around since before the game even existed. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Oh and i almost forgot no one ever said why a new player should not worry about catching older players in total sp and versatility not specialization or are you going to start telling me versatility doesnt matter either? It's hard to know, since you haven't answered some very basic questions: What do do think "catching up" entails given the EVE skill system? Why do you think that "catching up" is impossible? Why do you feel the need to grind SP? Why do you think that having more SP matters? Why do you feel that it even matters? What do you think larger ships will give you? Why do assume that you'll be alone? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp.	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:41:00 - [373] Originally by: Elena Laskova Every player new to an established MMO should ask themselves "can I ever catch up to the people who have been playing for years?". This means in player skill, in in-game capabilities (SP in EvE), economically (ISK per hour in EvE), socially (get access to a good 0.0 Corp), etc. If the answer is "no" for that person, the game is not worth joining. Wait, what? If I'm assessing whether or not to play a game, I don't give a stuff about anyone else. First and foremost, I play games to have fun, regardless of how my character's statistics compare outwardly with others. In Eve's case, I would see a game that still potentially has its best days ahead of it, and while I wouldn't have as many SP as most people at first, it wouldn't matter to me at first as I would need to time to learn how to properly play anyway, and I would understand that natural player turnover means I'll have just as many SP as most others in a year or two. This was precisely my thinking in 2004, and it still applies in 2010 since the game is still growing after all this time. Originally by: Elena Laskova I have a challenge for the rest of you: explain, politely and rationally, with no cheap lies, no unjustified denial, no ad hominem attacks, no irrelevant WoW-nonsense, why a new player has no reason to be concerned that they'll never catch up. See above. Granted, it may have been easier for me since Eve was my first MMO, but if you are coming from another MMO with certain assumptions about how MMOs are supposed to work and are struggling with making the adjustment to Eve as a result, well, that's your issue to overcome for yourself. Don't try and change the game to fit your playstyle like Chester here, change yourself to fit the game. As we tend say a lot around here, "adapt or die". Originally by: Elena Laskova Perhaps you could explain how a new player can get to the point where they can fly a T3 ship while obeying the rule "don't fly what you can't afford to lose". The best thing any new Eve player can do to get ahead is to join a corp. Once surrounded by the right people, you'll soon realise that there's so much more to the game than just counting your SP every day. /Ben
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:45:00 - [374] I'm 3 years old, there are people with 3 years in game over me. there are people with more alts than me, there are people with more isk than me. and you know what, meh.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:46:00 - [375] Originally by: Elena Laskova Perhaps you could explain how a new player can get to the point where they can fly a T3 ship while obeying the rule "don't fly what you can't afford to lose". My character is roughly 4 years old, my net asset value is far above 100 BILLION ISK, and I still don't fly T3 ships because they still are, for me, too expensive to lose for how much they cost now. On the other hand, I have former corpmates that are barely 1 year old, have probably only around 2 bil ISK to their name, and they fly in T3 ships all day long. It's THAT relative. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 10:54:00 - [376] Quote: No. It's common knowledge anyway. I'm too lazy to look for it now to serve you a convenient link. You provide proof for YOUR part first (the one this above was an answer to), then I'll bother searching to link for the source of mine. I won't have to, because yours has no source. But, you know, benefit of the doubt. AHAHAHAHA Epic fail No when your confronted with something such as this entire thread the burden of proof is on you I say there is a problem you say there isn't you have to be able to falsify my statement. If you knew anything about proving a theory you would know you have to work backwards trying to falsify in every manor to prove the theory right or wrong.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.14 11:07:00 - [377] Edited by: Tippia on 14/02/2010 11:07:23 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester No when your confronted with something such as this entire thread the burden of proof is on you I say there is a problem you say there isn't you have to be able to falsify my statement. No, you have to provide some evidence to falsify first as well as some reasoning behind your conclusions based on that evidence. You made a statement, so the onus is on you to be able to prove it. So get going. Until you do, we can safely assume that EVE has some 300k subscribers (not accounts) – if you want to claim otherwise, go find some numbers that disprove this. You then might want to clarify your reasoning by answering some of these questions: What do do think "catching up" entails given the EVE skill system? Why do you think that "catching up" is impossible? Why do you feel the need to grind SP? Why do you think that having more SP matters? Why do you feel that it even matters? What do you think larger ships will give you? Why do assume that you'll be alone? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp.	Posted - 2010.02.14 11:11:00 - [378] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: Eve hasn't yet reached its peak; it's still growing after nearly 7 years. How many other MMOs can claim that? 7 years and only 300k subs not saying much even if its peak was 600k that still doesn't touch the likes of any other major mmo How many other MMOs have even survived 7 years? Many don't even come close. The point was to demonstrate that for as long as Eve continues to grow, it will only be a year or two before you'll have more SP than most other characters around you at that point in the future. As this is still the case, anyone who joins now and sticks it out will be in the same position SP-wise in the future as many of today's vets are now. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: The average accounts-per-player number has remained relatively steady at somewhere between 1.2-1.3 accounts per player for several years now. Look who's ignoring FACTS now /facepalm Provide proof of this? Search the dev blog archive and have a read up on the Quarterly Economic Newsletters for the last couple of years. /Ben
Avalon Champion Gene Works	Posted - 2010.02.14 11:12:00 - [379] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester OH i want to field this one please So the new player gets the jump on the vet player because he was semi afk and the new player wins this encounter. The older player at this point docks up gets into his battleship goes and hunts down the new play player unleashing his tech 2 drones and what not who wins now? Oh that's right the more versatile player. Also the older player had lvl 5 skills vs the newer plays lvl 4 skills This would only be a marginal edge if we are talking one or two skills but when we are talking 5-10% bonus over 16+ skills that is big gap to fill.[/quote Ok, so is a 5-10% differential that large considering the 40mil sp player has 10x the SP you have. Personally speaking id be looking to recruit the youngster that got did that, depending on his attitude as he will have a future in eve. You're assuming the vet is a vindictive SoB, and you're assuming that you hang around to wait for the now vindictive and ****ed player to come after you in the BS, most people with brains would a) dockup and log, b) dockup and clone jump to another region 20 odd jumps away, c) jump over a couple of systems and do some missioning. In 99% of cases the player will make the decision its not worth his hassle to come back out and hunt you down. There are a couple of players that ive heard of that wont, especially if you smaked in local, they take it very personal, Johnny101 is one i can think of off the top of my head. As I also said as you hit around 8 mil sp you're on more or less on par with the 40mil sp player in the same hull class, which is about 8 months into the game, after about 1 year (12-15 mil sp) you can match the same player provided you have specialised in the majority of T1 Hulls, and some T2 hulls. Also if you play 10 hours a day, you will have a distinct advantage over someone who plays 3 hours a day. With regard to your original idea, would you be in favour of retrospectively applying the 'in game time' bonus to older players? If so i think I'd get another 10+ mill SP, which will give me all racial BS'5, all T2 turrets at large, and a number of T2 missile skills, so the noob still cant catch up. Even if it wasnt retrospective, a noob would still have to play 3400 hours to get close, thats about 80 hours a week for 43 weeks, most players will burn out at about half that and either dump the game because of the 'grind' or not have a social life. There is nothing wrong with the skill system the fact that you are almost equal with a 'vet' after 4 months, you can compete at 8 months, and be an equal inside 18 months isnt a big issue except in your head.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 11:21:00 - [380] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: No. It's common knowledge anyway. AHAHAHAHA Epic fail [...] burden of proof You seem to have a problem understanding the concept of "burden of proof". Here's a hint : when making a STATEMENT, if that statement contradicts common knowledge, the burden of proof is on you, not on those repeating the common knowledge. There have been various instances in which (in blogs, newsitems, forum posts, don't recall exactly where and can't be arsed to search just to satisfy your negativity) devs or other types of CCP officials have stated that, while an exact count is impossible (due to accounts run only via GTC and now PLEX, and other issues like slightly different billing details on various cards), their best estimates pretty much every time it was mentioned place the number of players with multiple accounts somewhere up to 20% of the player population, with extremely few of those having more than just 2 accounts. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _

Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 11:26:00 - [381] Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 14/02/2010 11:25:51 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: No. It's common knowledge anyway. AHAHAHAHA Epic fail [...] burden of proof You seem to have a problem understanding the concept of "burden of proof". Here's a hint : when making a STATEMENT, if that statement contradicts common knowledge, the burden of proof is on you, not on those repeating the common knowledge. There have been various instances in which (in blogs, newsitems, forum posts, don't recall exactly where and can't be arsed to search just to satisfy your negativity) devs or other types of CCP officials have stated that, while an exact count is impossible (due to accounts run only via GTC and now PLEX, and other issues like slightly different billing details on various cards), their best estimates pretty much every time it was mentioned place the number of players with multiple accounts somewhere up to 20% of the player population, with extremely few of those having more than just 2 accounts. Now it is down to 20% you said your self that alts account for 25% of the population oh jeez you just crashed and burned
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.14 11:31:00 - [382] Stop being a nobhead Chester ~ Soar Like a Penguin
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 11:35:00 - [383] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Now it is down to 20% you said your self that alts account for 25% of the population oh jeez you just crashed and burned hmmz... Originally by: Akita T The average accounts-per-player number has remained relatively steady at somewhere between 1.2-1.3 accounts per player for several years now. [...] an exact count is impossible [...] their best estimates [...] somewhere up to You know, as in, ballpark figures ? Approximations ? Best estimates ? Still a far cry from... Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I have already addressed this falsehood it is becoming more and more of a need to have multi accounts like I already stated before one player with 5 accounts is still one player this is falsified growth. Fail harder. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Tradesmans	Posted - 2010.02.14 11:43:00 - [384] Last night I sat down and read this thread from page 1. Yes, I was that sad. A couple things jumped out at me; firstly, you skip over the posts that invalidate your arguments and cling to posts you feel you can provide an argument against; secondly, you are quite clever with your manipulation of the english language although it does appear to me that there are 2 different people posting on the same name, one who is articulate and one who is not. You say you should get rewarded for putting in the amount of hours that you play compared to other higher SP characters. This has been refuted time after time yet you conveniently ignore those posts. You are getting rewarded for putting in the long hours in terms of playing skill and generating isk. You even gave us a nice little story regarding your skills at evading the war decs against your corp. Right there, you disproved your own OP theory that you are at a disadvantage because you don't have even SP, your skills helped there, your skills that you gained because you have been able to put more Eve time in than a lot of other people. You then complain that you can't break the T2 tank unless you have T2 weapons. Your extra Eve time lets you generate isk quicker than someone who only logs in 5 hours a week, you can then use that isk to buy meta 4 modules. Guess what, you've closed the gap to those T2 equipped players even further as most meta 4 modules are almost the equivalent of T2 without needing the skill investment. In fact you'll quite often find players using meta 4 instead of T2 for other reasons. Later on, you say that 4.5m isk for a skill book is still quite a chunk of your personal isk. So what sort of a chunk would it be for the player who can't put in your amount of play time? That's if they can afford it at all. There, once again, you can see the reward of your extra in game hours. Plex selling is a difficult one. If it feels to you that it's cheating then don't do it. If it makes you feel at a disadvantage, well, the amount of hours you play should negate that. Personally, I would prefer to see a legal route of paying cash for isk than be stuck with buying it from a third party. I have a friend who is unable to put the time into Eve that he used to, whereas before he could go spend a couple of hours shooting rats, mining or whatever, now he uses real cash to buy and sell plexes. It covers his ship losses through PvP and enables him to keep playing a game he loves without the risk of his account being banned through third party isk buying. The skill process in Eve is different from the MMO's you have played in the past and to an extent does give the casual player a helping hand but as many, many people have said, skill and knowledge is what gives you an advantage at Eve not skillpoints. The reason people are not seeing your argument is because by far the majority of players are happy with how the system works. They're used to it and experience has shown them that it doesn't really make much of a difference. For me, I love it, I love having a goal to work towards, the fun getting there and the final feeling of satisfaction once I step into my new shiny T3 and go for a test fly is worth the wait. Remove that and you remove half the fun in my opinion.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 12:11:00 - [385] Quote: What do do think "catching up" entails given the EVE skill system? Versatility The more versatile the player the more useful he is from pve to pvp to isk making while i may be able to specialize in one area chances are a higher sp toon will have multiple specializations hence the old toon will always have the edge in this manner just because he started the game before the new players. And since CCP is always releasing new content this will go on until infinite providing accounts are always active. The more versatile player should also have more isk making abilities thus can afford +5 implants vs a newer player would take a long time before considering +5's with all learning skills at lvl 5 it takes upwards of 4 years to see the kick back from this. The older than +4 year character are getting the kick backs from this already hence learning faster so in really there is a bigger discrepancy that i first thought. Quote: Why do you think that "catching up" is impossible? Being that everyone gains SP at the same rate less implants the older character will always stay ahead there is no system in place to allow a sp gap to close because chances are like i stated before the older player is more likely able to afford the better implants and assuming the older player has learning skills to 5 and providing the amount of time it takes to get the real benefit of maxed learning again the older player will stay ahead in this manner. And also providing the supposed amount of time it takes to learn to fly each ship and fit it effectively the older player again will maintain the edge as new ships get released the older player will always reach the prereqs faster than the newer player allowing him a head start on learning these new ships + affording them and we haven't even considered cross training yet. This is why you can never truly catch up assuming the older player is going for specializations in every ship he flies. Not to mention fleet bonus as well Quote: Why do you feel the need to grind SP? I do not feel just because you have owned your account longer it entitles you to keep this higher sp and versatility considering how many people log in just to que up their stats and play for short periods of time the vet player doesn't require as much play time to earn isk as a newer player it is safe to assume the vet player makes more isk / hr from trade missions complex's ratting ect also BRO research the more versatile player will be able to research more BPO's than the newer player there for maintaining that edge is isk making. Quote: Why do you think that having more SP matters? see above the BPO research capabilities alone make this a easy one to answer. Quote: Why do you feel that it even matters? The sheer amount of isk from this is hard to rival even with the best mission / complex runner. Quote: What do you think larger ships will give you? More enjoyable game play in terms of what i want to get out of eve i do not care for the smaller ships like frigates they do not fit my personal play style. While they are very effective and needed in their respected roles they are not the ship for my play style. Quote: Why do assume that you'll be alone? I don't how ever shall i ever feel the need to do some solo stuff i have the versatility to do so.
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.14 12:16:00 - [386] So much fail. Best troll ever. ~ Soar Like a Penguin
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 12:26:00 - [387] Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 14/02/2010 12:28:22 Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 14/02/2010 12:27:18 I must admit I have lost sight of my original intent of this post No one has yet been able to refute the imbalance of capabilities between older players and newer players also see my post above this one Quote: But the fact of the matter is the game is so far along that it creates an imbalance to the game for new players vs. old players
Ba'Rumph The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2010.02.14 12:38:00 - [388] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 14/02/2010 12:28:22 Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 14/02/2010 12:27:18 I must admit I have lost sight of my original intent of this post No one has yet been able to refute the imbalance of capabilities between older players and newer players also see my post above this one Quote: But the fact of the matter is the game is so far along that it creates an imbalance to the game for new players vs. old players No one has to refute anything. You've just gone on an emo tantrum induced by a false sense of entitlement in this thread, and you have failed to account for the fact that everyone was new once, and there's always someone older. Now, either deal with it or GTFBTWOW.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.14 12:39:00 - [389] Edited by: Akita T on 14/02/2010 12:45:46 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester more blah blah * you say a new player has far less versatility in ISK-making even if the most lucrative (ISK-wise) activities in EVE don't require that much SP at all - trading can be pretty damn lucrative in a matter of days and you reach high effectiveness in a month, manufacture takes only a little over a month purely skills-wise, you hit almost peak mining capacity in about 2 months, you can run L4 missions in a satisfactory manner with a 4-month old character (and L3s for profit much better than highsec mining in under a month) * you can reach very high mission-running-or-ratting efficiency in half a year, trade IS NOT ABOUT PLAYER AGE AT ALL but about ISK reserves and ability to place them where it matters * BPO research is a crummy income source, especially if you plan to do it in public labs... so laughably crummy I don't even know why the heck you felt the need to mention it in the first place, let alone twice directly plus a third time as indirect reference, as if it's some magic bullet of ISK-gathering... geez, get a lab, you and your BPOs * you complain about L5 learning skills, when a lot of older players never even bothered to train them at all (very few players actually do train them), the new trend is even to go with 4/4 instead of 5/4, and also a lot of people stop at +4 implants (or even just +3s if they plan to engage in PvP frequently, sometimes just the two +3s for the skills they're training "right now") * so why SHOULDN'T people that just had the accounts longer have generally more SP, all other things being equal ? That's one of the main selling points of EVE, the fact that you DO NOT have to grind mindlessly to advance in some way, no matter how significant or insignificant. You already advance slower if you don't play much, since you won't have the higher implants, or you won't have the learning skills or whatnot. Sure, the cutoff/payoff is relatively sharp, but then again, weren't YOU the one just complaining about how expensive +5s are and how older players make more money ? Well, if they don't actively play, they DON'T make money, and they DON'T get +5s. Probably not even +4s. * so if you don't like frigates, fine, nobody's forcing you to specialize for them, go ahead, fly battleships then... for PvE at least, skipping as many size classes as possible is one of the better things to do (it's actually very bad for PvP, but then again, your loss) * if you KEEP INSISTING that you WANT to have a high SP count, and that you want to reach that high SP count by being more active than others, explain again, WHAT EXACTLY IS WRONG WITH EARNING ISK THE HARD, HONEST WAY AND BUYING A HIGH-SP CHARACTER WITH IT ? Maybe after you GET a high-SP character you'll finally realize that, well, it's actually really not THAT much of a big deal. An improvement, yes, for sure, but was it really worth the extra time spent earning all that ISK to buy it ? Then, if you think back and realize just how much ISK and/or RL-cash (depending on how you pay for your sub, PLEX or credit card) you would have had to pump into your "previous" character to reach the same point, all of a sudden, your recent purchase, while still feeling not that great, still feels better than having done it the slow way assuming you still cling to the shreds of the idea high SP is somehow a big deal even if you start having doubts... ...then maybe, just maybe you will start understanding why people have been screaming at you for 13 pages Originally by: Chesterr theMolester No one has yet been able to refute the imbalance of capabilities between older players and newer players also see my post above this one There's nothing TO refute. Are newer players at a disadvantage ? YES. A big disadvantage ? NO. Does it really matter ? After a while, HELL NO. And if you lack the patience, you can pay (either $ or ISK, your choice) for the privilege of skipping the "waiting time". _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.14 12:58:00 - [390] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Versatility. The more versatile the player the more useful he is from pve to pvp to isk making. While i may be able to specialize in one area chances are a higher sp toon will have multiple specializations hence the old toon will always have the edge in this manner. Ok. This is countered by the EVE skill system in two ways: first of all, only one of those facets will be relevant at any given time, second of all, versatility costs about as much as specialisation (again, a full specialisation takes ~5+ the time and SP of a regular setup, and you gain, at best, 25% more "effectiveness" through all that). The moment you specialise you have already lost the versatility race; the moment you go versatile, you've lost the specialisation race. Quote: there is no system in place to allow a sp gap to close Overall? Actually, there is, but let's stick with "no" for now and say that… so what? In each domain, there is a limited amount of SP you can pour into it and this gap can be closed. In many cases it can even be surpassed because, again, versatility and specialisation can't really be combined. He may be able to fly more stuff than you do, but catch him in what you flies better and he's dead. Or vice versa. Either way, you can always find a way to beat him. Quote: because chances are like i stated before the older player is more likely able to afford the better implants and assuming the older player has learning skills to 5 And this is where assumptions come to bite you. This is far from a realistic situation. Being old does not necessarily mean that you fly around in +5s and with maxed learning skills. In fact, in the situations relevant to your worries (space combat), it's even less likely because those implants will be lost too often. Quote: This is why you can never truly catch up assuming the older player is going for specializations in every ship he flies. And that's just it: he can't. He might have specialised in some of them, but then there are plenty where he's crap so he's not versatile. In order to have "specialised in every ship he flies", he must have severely limited the number of ships, so again, he's not versatile. Quote: I do not feel just because you have owned your account longer it entitles you to keep this higher sp and versatility Why not? If all he does is log in to change skills, his versatility will be worthless because he hasn't logged enough flight hours to fly properly. Quote: it is safe to assume the vet player makes more isk / hr from trade missions complex's ratting ect also BRO research No it's not safe to assume that, because those are all different domains, and he won't be able to specialise in all of them. So he'll either not be versatile, or he'll be worse than the specialised competition. Quote: The sheer amount of isk from this is hard to rival even with the best mission / complex runner. Funnily enough, if it's ISK you're after, the best way to earn it is also the one that requires the least amount of SP: trading. Quote: I don't how ever shall i ever feel the need to do some solo stuff i have the versatility to do so. I think you'll find that what matters most for solo work is knowing what you're doing – not the SP that goes into it – so that versatility comes at a very low SP cost. For anything else, you can get both specialisation and versatility at once by doing it as a group. Quote: No one has yet been able to refute the imbalance of capabilities between older players and newer players also see my post above this one But we have. Your claim comes down to one of two things: either an older character can do more, or he can do it better than a new player. But that's just it: it's either or – never and. Therefore, any imbalance there might be can always be overcome in one way or another. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki

Sista Jaxx Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.02.14 13:13:00 - [391] I think i remember this thread from a couple of days ago. Chesterr sure likes to argue into oblivion. Good luck Ches.
Mashie Saldana Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.14 14:14:00 - [392] Chester, are you related to Praleon by any chance? I would say you are twins by the posting style.
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.14 15:07:00 - [393] Originally by: Atticus Fynch I haven't read the whole thread, but one thing old players have over new ones: T2 BPOs. Once given out by lottery, now only available (for billions) by purchase only. This alone gives old players a BIG advantage. Many have been destroyed or sold and Invention has made many of them useless (production times means these BPO's cannot produce items fast enough to make much decent profit, with Invention you can) Also many 'old' players never got T2 anyway. The T2 lottery sucked but really it's no big deal, you can still compete with invention. But that is nothing to do with what the Op said anyway and its been addressed elsewhere on many occasions. The Op simply thinks a player should be able to grind SP's. He also overstates the use of SP's to a player's success and ignores all the other factors entirely. Factors which have been proved time and time again as far more relevant. That's his loss though, most of us are replying because new players may completely misunderstand how the game works if they listen to him.
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.14 15:44:00 - [394] Edited by: Zartanic on 14/02/2010 15:46:55 Originally by: Mashie Saldana Chester, are you related to Praleon by any chance? I would say you are twins by the posting style. I sometimes wonder if these people are paid shills for other games. It's hard to be totally incapable of presenting an argument that isn't fatally flawed yet stick to it despite all the evidence presented to you. The EVE skill system is apparent after a few days play, when you realise how long it takes to train level 5 over level 1-4. You fast realise SP's are nice to have but far from crucial in enjoyment, other factors far outweigh them. I remember being annoyed about Tech 2 until I found out Meta 4 was often better (less fitting needs and no fitting penalties) and could be fit with a few hours training. It's easy to grasp its no good learning a specialised ship unless you have the personal knowledge to fly it. Its also easy to grasp Tech 2 is not required for PVP as Meta items balance it out and, again, personal skills count for a lot more. The op is wilfully ignorant. He needs to post less and play more. He will then find playing will give him the knowledge he so desperately needs. Some people grasp this after a few days, some never do.
Alhambra Trellane Harbingers of Chaos Inc. Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.02.14 16:16:00 - [395] Originally by: Zartanic The op is wilfully ignorant. He needs to post less and play more. He will then find playing will give him the knowledge he so desperately needs. Some people grasp this after a few days, some never do. ^ This. Also: Originally by: Jon Bartos Millennials are an entirely new generation, born into the lap of convenience and fed from the spoon of immediate gratification. TheyÆve never had to roll down a car window or hear a busy signal on a phone. They were raised by parents who provided all they needed and more. They are, as much as it makes me feel old to say it, very different from Boomers and Gen Xers. Ref: http://www.fordyceletter.com/2008/03/01/its-a-brave-new-world-understanding-millennials-is-key-to-recruiting-success/ I unfortunately posit that this is more of a "new (young) vs. old (not 20)" player problem, not one to do with mechanics. So to reiterate my earlier position: is bad thread imo
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2010.02.14 16:39:00 - [396] It's a terrible thread. I thought the point of EVE was just to enjoy playing the game, I get a great deal of enjoyment out of figuring things out and learning new tactics to achieve particular goals. When I joined last year, shortly after Apocrypha was released, I was in awe of people with the skills to fly all those big ships and such, but it didn't make me think 'it's unfair that they have so many more sp than me, I should have the same as they do' simply because I realised that they'd been playing for a good while longer than me and if I kept playing that I'd eventually have the same sort of skills and toys as them. But then I'm an older player and see the benefits of being more patient and not being such a pathetic little 'I wan't it now' millenial brat who has a bloated sense of self entitlement and would prefer to ruin the game for so many people who don't like to grind for skills like you have to in other games just so they can feel like they are equal to others who have been playing longer. Every counter argument this dolt makes is utterly self serving and not very bright which is why it's obviously a troll. I'm just glad, from reading one or two of the responses, that plenty of other new players actually get what EVE is about. ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.14 18:00:00 - [397] One other thing I think has not been mentioned, as a pacing mechanism SP's have their use although other mechanisms are far more important in EVE, as already said. Speed it up and you end up with a game like WOW. They dumbed it down so much they could not keep up with the content as even brain dead monkeys were getting to the end game, so they had to introduce artificial ways to slow players down (like limited attempt content and gates blocking off content) EVE is all about freedom and it would be a terrible day if that was ever required. And damned if I want a another grinding game, been there, done that. I came to EVE because it was not. Wits and practise is what counts and it's why I play it.
Spurty Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.02.14 18:03:00 - [398] Someone got kicked from their wow clan as they didn't have enough pink items on their cow tipper plus 5 character so came to try Eve out? Originally by: Hurley I WAS NOT QUITTING SoT AND WAS NOT THINKING ABOUT JOINING IT. PL/SoT MADE A MISTAKE AND ARE NOT MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT IT OR FIX IT.
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.14 18:07:00 - [399] Edited by: Zartanic on 14/02/2010 18:13:42 Originally by: Spurty Someone got kicked from their wow clan as they didn't have enough pink items on their cow tipper plus 5 character so came to try Eve out? Yes sounds about right To be fair though, I suspect there are a lot of ex WOW players in EVE (including me) A lot of us left because the high end content and the need to study your character and practise was largely removed. Characters were homogenised and dumbed down too. EVE is everything we want and the fact CCP loath dumbing down is a great incentive to play. What the Op wants will go against everything EVE stands for. It may simply be not a game for him. Not all games try and please everyone and they should not try. I don't want every food outlet to be McDonalds but that is exactly what some people seem to want. What I find funny is they actually demand it, seems to think a game sucks if it does not comply with their way of thinking, that they have come up with a new and clever idea and then get upset when people tell them to sod off. There is a lot of EVE that may need fixing but SP's is not one of them except maybe for subtle adjustments as content is introduced (like WH's required scanning and exploration to have lower SP's)
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.14 19:45:00 - [400] Originally by: Tippia Why do assume that you'll be alone? In fairness this assumption at least seems likely.

Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.14 20:03:00 - [401] What I find funny is you accuse me of the one being on the offensive When peoples ideas don't mesh. How ever there has been 14 pages of bombardment over something that you people claim is not a big deal. I have asked many times within this thread if you would bother to read. If the high sp is no big deal why is everyone fighting to keep the current system that favors someone based on when the account was created vs mine? Why is it such a big deal to want higher sp without buying a character? Why is it such a big deal for a new player to be able to close a total sp gap? Keeping everything else is the game the way it is as far as required skill to play. (and btw you over state this way to much it is not that hard of a game skill wise maybe because for some of you this is your first mmo as many have stated.) This game IMO is slightly more difficult at best than some of the other games out there So with keeping the current play mechanics in play and only allowing for a gap in SP to be closed by a newer more active player. I ask you again if it is no big deal why the hell are there 14 pages to make sure it doesn't change like i stated before your more "leet" skills would surly make sure i do not have a good time in the larger more expensive ships right? Until someone can tell me why closing a TOTAL sp gap is such a bad thing while at the same time telling me its no big deal anyways to have those sp my point of this thread is still relevant and you have done nothing more then whine about your sense of "entitlement" just for having an older account. GTFO you still lose and think you have won by doing nothing more then filling my thread with 300 some replies of its not sp its skill while at the same time saying sp is not a big deal but we want to make sure you don't close the total sp gap. Keep failing you guys its fun
yourdoingitwrong	Posted - 2010.02.14 20:11:00 - [402] only thing I see is 13 pages of people saying your wrong and you in epic denial mode. Kudos on the troll and all but the self serving I should be as skilled as people who have been playing for 5 years obviously doesn't fly here like it does in WoW. You already know it you just don't want to admit it, and thats fine. Its pretty funny to see you keep getting owned like this I hope it goes on another 13 pages.
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.14 20:15:00 - [403] Edited by: Zartanic on 14/02/2010 20:17:25 Your questions have been answered numerous times. The fact you do not accept the answers is irrelevant. It means you don't like the game as it is. Either play it that way or not, up to you. You seem to have a physiological disjoint where only what you think matters. You seem incapable of accepting that something you dislike is acceptable or enjoyable to others. Really, please, grow up and learn life is not like that. Life does not revolve around what you want. That means most of us accept there will always be elements of life we do not like but we accept they are valid, especially when explained. EVE is so diverse you have to have that mental attitude or you will hate it. You are just clutching at straws and have been for a long time. Try and think about how others perceive the world. Life is a matter of degrees, it's been explained why SP's, while very useful and so have value, are not that important in this game. Take it or leave it. EDIT: TLDR version..most of us have elements of the game we dislike yet would never want it changed as we know they are valid. You can't grasp that.
Tason Hyena Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.14 20:32:00 - [404] Sad thing is the trolling misses a lot the legitimate reasons why the skill system sucks. -it's entirely hands off, and robs the game of any meaningful group advancement to build your character. -its obtuse and padded, to the point where people recommend a third party program just to cut through the bs and learn the skills you actually need to be effective for any specific ship. -it encourages not playing the game. A person who logs on once a week to manage skills will progress the same way as someone who plays a lot. -The "shinies" suck. By that I mean advancement really gives crap rewards. You spend months queueing your skills to finally get a ship a different color than the one you already had, then spend months queueing skills to be able to fly the thing without getting torn up. -"ransom" skills that force you to take weeks to months to fulfill just to be able to achieve a necessary skill. If you are going to failtroll the skill system, at least work on things that actually suck about it, not some nonexistent idea of "catching up." For all the hate about WoW at least it manages to make a player feel involved in his advancement. Skill training in "hardcore" EVE is like watching a download bar fill to completion.
Xzar Fyrarr Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.02.14 21:25:00 - [405] because 7 ate 9.
Daemonspirit Redhawk Tribal Trust	Posted - 2010.02.14 21:33:00 - [406] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester If the high sp is no big deal why is everyone fighting to keep the current system that favors someone based on when the account was created vs mine? No one is fighting. Disagreeing. And the answer to your question is because this is not any other game you've played - there is no level cap. There is no catching up. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Why is it such a big deal to want higher sp without buying a character? Because its stupid on the face of it, and (from the evidence) CCP doesn't want to go that way. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Why is it such a big deal for a new player to be able to close a total sp gap? It isn't. I does however take away a portion of the game many people (myself included) find enjoyable. Planning a skill out, gaining that achievement, and learning to fly/use/do the new ship/process/skill... Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Keeping everything else is the game the way it is as far as required skill to play. (and btw you over state this way to much it is not that hard of a game skill wise maybe because for some of you this is your first mmo as many have stated.) This game IMO is slightly more difficult at best than some of the other games out there "Slightly more difficult" still = more difficult. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester So with keeping the current play mechanics in play and only allowing for a gap in SP to be closed by a newer more active player. Because CCP apparently doesn't want that. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I ask you again if it is no big deal why the hell are there 14 pages to make sure it doesn't change like i stated before your more "leet" skills would surly make sure i do not have a good time in the larger more expensive ships right? There are not 14 pages to make sure it doesn't happen... You've made sure it won't happen by posting a suggested change to the game in the wrong forum. CCP & the CSM read the "features and Ideas" forum and the "Jita Park Speakers Corner". GD is the wrong forum for suggesting changes. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Until someone can tell me why closing a TOTAL sp gap is such a bad thing while at the same time telling me its no big deal anyways to have those sp my point of this thread is still relevant and you have done nothing more then whine about your sense of "entitlement" just for having an older account. Its a bad idea because you can suggest no change that wouldn't get "gamed" by those older toons, thereby negating any benefit to those players you think it would help. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester GTFO you still lose and think you have won by doing nothing more then filling my thread with 300 some replies of its not sp its skill while at the same time saying sp is not a big deal but we want to make sure you don't close the total sp gap. I don't care how many SP you have. You would still loose to myself and many others, because you want things the way you want them, not the way they are. There is no level cap, you can't catch up, you will always have fewer SP than anyone older (in game) Quit now! (please). ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.14 21:49:00 - [407] Originally by: Tason Hyena Sad thing is the trolling misses a lot the legitimate reasons why the skill system sucks. -it's entirely hands off, and robs the game of any meaningful group advancement to build your character. -its obtuse and padded, to the point where people recommend a third party program just to cut through the bs and learn the skills you actually need to be effective for any specific ship. -it encourages not playing the game. A person who logs on once a week to manage skills will progress the same way as someone who plays a lot. -The "shinies" suck. By that I mean advancement really gives crap rewards. You spend months queueing your skills to finally get a ship a different color than the one you already had, then spend months queueing skills to be able to fly the thing without getting torn up. -"ransom" skills that force you to take weeks to months to fulfill just to be able to achieve a necessary skill. If you are going to failtroll the skill system, at least work on things that actually suck about it, not some nonexistent idea of "catching up." For all the hate about WoW at least it manages to make a player feel involved in his advancement. Skill training in "hardcore" EVE is like watching a download bar fill to completion. Yes and I see your point on those ones As you say the Op is making possibly a valid point for completely the wrong reason.
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp.	Posted - 2010.02.14 21:50:00 - [408] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester If the high sp is no big deal why is everyone fighting to keep the current system that favors someone based on when the account was created vs mine? Your question cannot be answered directly as it is based on a flawed premise. I have three characters from 2004, yet two of them have only 45mil and 33mil SP. Your continued assumption that everyone who started before you is still playing and has always been playing without anyone ever having taken a break during that time, is patently false. Let me ask you a question: since the high SP is no big deal, why are you fighting against the current system? Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Why is it such a big deal to want higher sp without buying a character? Why are you making it one? Spend the money or spend the time, it's that simple. In your case, since you made it clear to us earlier on that you believe spending the money is OMGCHEATING, your only option is the latter. That's your problem, not ours. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Why is it such a big deal for a new player to be able to close a total sp gap? Why are you incapable of understanding that it's actually not a big deal at all? Originally by: Chesterr theMolester (and btw you over state this way to much it is not that hard of a game skill wise maybe because for some of you this is your first mmo as many have stated.) This game IMO is slightly more difficult at best than some of the other games out there Again with the comparisons to other games. Again, Eve is nothing like those other MMOs. Again, how little you know. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Until someone can tell me why closing a TOTAL sp gap is such a bad thing while at the same time telling me its no big deal anyways to have those sp my point of this thread is still relevant and you have done nothing more then whine about your sense of "entitlement" just for having an older account. Of course I'm entitled to have more SP than you, I've been here longer than you, I've spent the time. If you're so obsessed by the SP gap that you feel you can't achieve anything without skills, you can always spend the mon... oh wait. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester GTFO NOU. /Ben
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.14 22:15:00 - [409] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Chester, are you related to Praleon by any chance? I would say you are twins by the posting style. There is a certain similarity in his sheer, raw obtuseness. But Praleon's English was considerably better.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.14 22:26:00 - [410] I take it the OP still sucks and is blaming eveything but himself.

Wakboth	Posted - 2010.02.15 00:59:00 - [411] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I have already addressed this falsehood it is becoming more and more of a need to have multi accounts like I already stated before one player with 5 accounts is still one player this is falsified growth. Look who is ignoring logic now /facepalm Originally by: Akita T The average accounts-per-player number has remained relatively steady at somewhere between 1.2-1.3 accounts per player for several years now. Look who's ignoring FACTS now /facepalm Originally by: Chesterr theMolester AHAHAHAHA Epic fail No when your confronted with something such as this entire thread the burden of proof is on you I say there is a problem you say there isn't you have to be able to falsify my statement. If you knew anything about proving a theory you would know you have to work backwards trying to falsify in every manor to prove the theory right or wrong. I think you failed Chesterr, here's the truth about your trolling, you claim about epic fail, but Akita is right and your source is screwed (if you ever had one....) : Quote: 51,5% of the accepted applicants have more than one account, making the ratio more than double of what goes for the entire EVE player base. That means alts accounts are less than 25% of total base players, so basically 1.2 to 1.3 account per player. It didn't change much since 2004. Source : Stuff for CSM (official source from CCP) Kthxbye dear troll....
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.15 03:17:00 - [412] I've recently begun training drum roll FRIGATES! Yes, I've been playing almost a year and I have bigger ships, but I want to move into smaller ships. Insanity! I have level 2 turret skills (level 4 gunnery) and level 3 frigate. I spent about 2 days training on this. I plan to PvP in my T1-fitted wtfomgbbq pwnmobiles that cost under 2m before insurance. Ya, a new player doesn't stand a chance against me. If I get blown-up I'll undock my Charon and teach them some manners. Skill points mean little. Experience and a desire to have fun mean a lot more.
Rosenoern	Posted - 2010.02.15 03:40:00 - [413] In case anyone hasn't noticed then a huge chunk of EVE players are rookies. This is due to the fact that most players simply give up/get bored with trying to reach some unreachable goal. They will never be able to reach the level that the oldest players are at. They will never be able to lead a big 0.0 alliance. It's simply out of reach in most peoples eyes. And to some extent this is a very important part of EVE. EVE lives off n00bs/rookies/new players. How do i know? Because most of the veteran players get by buying PLEX. If the majority of EVE's players suddenly became able to provide PLEX for themselves and didn't have to pay CCP would crash and burn. That's how i know that the low-level players are important to the game. They pay for it... Just to get back on topic. Yes, older players have an "unfair" advantage over new players because they play for free and they have all the skills. And the elite of the old players really run the game world. Getting into the game as a player not knowing all the exploits and shortcuts is pretty much like stepping into a dark room in which you know there's something trying to get you. And nobody needs the stress from that...
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.15 03:55:00 - [414] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester What I find funny is you accuse me of the one being on the offensive When peoples ideas don't mesh. How ever there has been 14 pages of bombardment over something that you people claim is not a big deal. I have asked many times within this thread if you would bother to read. If the high sp is no big deal why is everyone fighting to keep the current system that favors someone based on when the account was created vs mine? Why is it such a big deal to want higher sp without buying a character? Why is it such a big deal for a new player to be able to close a total sp gap? Keeping everything else is the game the way it is as far as required skill to play. (and btw you over state this way to much it is not that hard of a game skill wise maybe because for some of you this is your first mmo as many have stated.) This game IMO is slightly more difficult at best than some of the other games out there So with keeping the current play mechanics in play and only allowing for a gap in SP to be closed by a newer more active player. I ask you again if it is no big deal why the hell are there 14 pages to make sure it doesn't change like i stated before your more "leet" skills would surly make sure i do not have a good time in the larger more expensive ships right? Until someone can tell me why closing a TOTAL sp gap is such a bad thing while at the same time telling me its no big deal anyways to have those sp my point of this thread is still relevant and you have done nothing more then whine about your sense of "entitlement" just for having an older account. GTFO you still lose and think you have won by doing nothing more then filling my thread with 300 some replies of its not sp its skill while at the same time saying sp is not a big deal but we want to make sure you don't close the total sp gap. Keep failing you guys its fun how would it benefit players to switch to a system where players advance due to time spent in game vs the current system with liner progression over time? sure you can catch up to some people, but will still be years behind others... and what about players who have limited play time? it is nice knowing you don't need to log in and grind for hours to advance a little. and eh I was pretty happy with my character progression. and yes people overstate the difficulty a bit much. and well it isn't fair, get over it, welcome to the universe.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.15 04:11:00 - [415] Originally by: Tason Hyena Sad thing is the trolling misses a lot the legitimate reasons why the skill system sucks. -it's entirely hands off, and robs the game of any meaningful group advancement to build your character. -its obtuse and padded, to the point where people recommend a third party program just to cut through the bs and learn the skills you actually need to be effective for any specific ship. -it encourages not playing the game. A person who logs on once a week to manage skills will progress the same way as someone who plays a lot. -The "shinies" suck. By that I mean advancement really gives crap rewards. You spend months queueing your skills to finally get a ship a different color than the one you already had, then spend months queueing skills to be able to fly the thing without getting torn up. -"ransom" skills that force you to take weeks to months to fulfill just to be able to achieve a necessary skill. If you are going to failtroll the skill system, at least work on things that actually suck about it, not some nonexistent idea of "catching up." For all the hate about WoW at least it manages to make a player feel involved in his advancement. Skill training in "hardcore" EVE is like watching a download bar fill to completion. what would be better about hands on? we would have 200mil sp pilots running around, cry about the gap now where do they recommend that? I know people recommend evemon to work out a plan but I don't think it is to figure out what to train for a ship. and things like eft are useful for sharing fits, and checking that they fit. main thing I have used evemon for was to know when skills finished, and with the queue now that isn't important, usually just use it to check my wallet balance now to see how my orders are going. and a person who logs in once a week likely wont be making very much isk. have fun with your massive sp and no ships to fly. and/or complete lack of knowledge about the game. hmmm last I looked ships with a "different color" got some massive bonuses. for some ships I guess you have a point, lol diemost, but I'd like to see people fly the vexor like it was an ishtar. or a stabber like a vaga. "ransom skills" I like how you named them yea they are a pain in the ass.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.15 04:47:00 - [416] So now that a couple people have gotten behind this post no one has anything to say now?
Ba'Rumph The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2010.02.15 04:53:00 - [417] Originally by: Rosenoern In case anyone hasn't noticed then a huge chunk of EVE players are rookies. This is due to the fact that most players simply give up/get bored with trying to reach some unreachable goal. They will never be able to reach the level that the oldest players are at. They will never be able to lead a big 0.0 alliance. It's simply out of reach in most peoples eyes. And to some extent this is a very important part of EVE. EVE lives off n00bs/rookies/new players. How do i know? Because most of the veteran players get by buying PLEX. If the majority of EVE's players suddenly became able to provide PLEX for themselves and didn't have to pay CCP would crash and burn. That's how i know that the low-level players are important to the game. They pay for it... Just to get back on topic. Yes, older players have an "unfair" advantage over new players because they play for free and they have all the skills. And the elite of the old players really run the game world. Getting into the game as a player not knowing all the exploits and shortcuts is pretty much like stepping into a dark room in which you know there's something trying to get you. And nobody needs the stress from that... And yet, this has applied to everyone joining EVE after 2005. Starting up in EVE today is 100 times easier than it was back in 05-06. You now have at least 20 times the starting SP, better tutorials, player organizations willing to teach you and loads of easy ways to make isk. There is nothing "unfair" about the advantage of older players now that wasn't "unfair" when 05-06 players started. They pushed through, and EVE has continued growing. Now, quit complaining and either play the game or don't. EVE will manage with or without you.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.15 05:23:00 - [418] See now that noone has been able to tell me why it would be such a big deal to allow newer players to close a total SP gap I now know what it really is. its your damn ego thats why you hate thi sidea so much. Not one of you has given me a reason a real reason to why its such a bad idea what would it do to the game how would it effect the current staus of the game. If they implemented said plan ccp couldnt handle the pay load so they sucker people into the game untill they realize what i have and quit . that is how ccp keeps going. That and making it almost a need to have more than one account.
Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.15 05:39:00 - [419] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester See now that noone has been able to tell me why it would be such a big deal to allow newer players to close a total SP gap I now know what it really is. its your damn ego thats why you hate thi sidea so much. Not one of you has given me a reason a real reason to why its such a bad idea what would it do to the game how would it effect the current staus of the game. If they implemented said plan ccp couldnt handle the pay load so they sucker people into the game untill they realize what i have and quit . that is how ccp keeps going. That and making it almost a need to have more than one account. Yes, that's obviously CCP's business model. Well done 'Ding' you have reached 80th level forum troll. I wish I'd seen it earlier, it's all so obvious really.
Ba'Rumph The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2010.02.15 05:57:00 - [420] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester See now that noone has been able to tell me why it would be such a big deal to allow newer players to close a total SP gap I now know what it really is. its your damn ego thats why you hate thi sidea so much. Not one of you has given me a reason a real reason to why its such a bad idea what would it do to the game how would it effect the current staus of the game. If they implemented said plan ccp couldnt handle the pay load so they sucker people into the game untill they realize what i have and quit . that is how ccp keeps going. That and making it almost a need to have more than one account. That's it. Claim victory for maximum trollage. Now, go back to WOW.

Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.15 06:06:00 - [421] Oh, the shocker, a subscription-income-model game is designed in such a way as to give some incentives for customer loyalty, who would have thought such a horrible, horrible dark plan could remain secret for long ? Of course, people that realize sticking around longer will give them some minor rewards must flee in droves as soon as they manage to grasp that concept ! Indeed, you are one of the lucky few that has understood that from the first month, as opposed to every other poor sod in a group large enough to populate a small country, so run, run as fast as you can, never come back ! And tell the tale of your exploits to anybody who cares to hear it ! _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.15 06:13:00 - [422] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester See now that noone has been able to tell me why it would be such a big deal to allow newer players to close a total SP gap I now know what it really is. its your damn ego thats why you hate thi sidea so much. Not one of you has given me a reason a real reason to why its such a bad idea what would it do to the game how would it effect the current staus of the game. If they implemented said plan ccp couldnt handle the pay load so they sucker people into the game untill they realize what i have and quit . that is how ccp keeps going. That and making it almost a need to have more than one account. I objected but I think you decided to conveniently skip over my post
yourdoingitwrong	Posted - 2010.02.15 06:21:00 - [423] everyone objected to his fail lol-post the concept of a majority is kind of lost on him and likely will be till the end of this stellar thread.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.15 07:01:00 - [424] Originally by: yourdoingitwrong everyone objected to his fail lol-post the concept of a majority is kind of lost on him and likely will be till the end of this stellar thread. Your claiming majority in your favor not everyone in eve feels as you do in fact there are some that feel such as i do. And we are not even accounting for the people who have quit eve for the very reasons stated in my postings. And if you feel a sense of achievement by a bar loading over time when you did nothing absolutely nothing other than wait long periods of time maybe sell a few plex to put some implants in look at evemon log in change a skill in the que and keep doing this. If this really and truly gives you a sense of accomplishment you must have lead one hell of a fail life. I bet you high five your friends when you bring water to a boil or finish a download. This game could be so much better if they would stop listening to self entitled losers like you guys and gave some reason to really play the game for extended periods of time. The reason they do not do such a thing is they don't want to / can not deal with larger server loads. I will direct you to a few postings back by some other players who also have a problem with the current system. When you get bored after a month of play because every mission is every system is the same thing with a different name and isk making with low sp is so **** poor its not even worth it mining or missioning. So with the lack luster thrill of the current skilling system in which you have absolutely no hand is skilling up other than waiting time and knowing that you can spend a mere 65 bucks a month and out do the isk making capabilities of just about all players with low sp where is the thrill where is the sense of achievement. Ya sure you can pvp and do it with friends but like i stated earlier when your using tech 1 guns (and get real no new player is gonna use meta 4's for pvping just like im sure most vet players wont) on a tech two tank when you blow up a ship and then go look at kill boards and all your friends who where using the tech 2 guns did all the dmg and you pulled like 5% where is the accomplishment in that? So whats left for players like my self where you get out done by plex sellers and macro miners where the missions are stale and the complexes all look the same. We start to think of other ways that would make the game more fun for us, such as being more versatile and having more options available to us via SP where we are used for cheap fleet in pvp because we are good for nothing else but cannon fodder maybe get a web and a point off before we are blown up. (i am using we as in others like me i was able to survive my pvp encounters but that was due to my WT's being complete idiots) But what happens next time when i go up vs a better pvper and im only good to the corp as cheap fleet cannon fodder? Can not tell me that new players are so widely welcome in higher pvp corps because what they have to offer on the field in terms of dps or tank. no it's because they want to use us give us a few cheap ass frigates and use us for bait ya real sense of accomplishment there. I would rather really work to get into the ships i am flying and then work to learn how to use them.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2010.02.15 07:03:00 - [425] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester See now that noone has been able to tell me why it would be such a big deal to allow newer players to close a total SP gap I now know what it really is. its your damn ego thats why you hate thi sidea so much. Not one of you has given me a reason a real reason to why its such a bad idea what would it do to the game how would it effect the current staus of the game. If they implemented said plan ccp couldnt handle the pay load so they sucker people into the game untill they realize what i have and quit . that is how ccp keeps going. That and making it almost a need to have more than one account. To be able to "close the total sp gap" would require a radically fast way to train skills for new players as some current players have over 100m skill-points today. Such a fast rate of gaining skills would destroy specialization because anyone could train for anything easily. You are equating "levels" in other MMORPGs with "total SP" in EVE. The two concepts are very different. A 20m pilot specialized in the Vagabond is just the same as a 100m pilot specialized in the Vagabond. The reason why it is such a bad idea is because there is no massive problem with the way we gain skills and you don't fix a system that isn't broke. Most of the players here disagreeing with you have not been playing since beta and don't have over 100m skill-points and we know we will never catch up and we deal with it fine. You do not join a game and then scream for them to change the mechanics to suit what you want and then throw a tanrum like a 4 year old when you don't get your way. If you don't like the rules of EVE, then go play something else. We're not afraid to tell new players that act like babies to GTFO, EVE will prosper just fine without you. Originally by: Jim Raynor EVE needs danger, EVE needs risks, EVE needs combat, even piracy, without these things, the game stagnates to a trivial game centering around bloating your wallet with no purpose.
Ba'Rumph The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2010.02.15 07:03:00 - [426] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Originally by: yourdoingitwrong everyone objected to his fail lol-post the concept of a majority is kind of lost on him and likely will be till the end of this stellar thread. Your claiming majority in your favor not everyone in eve feels as you do in fact there are some that feel such as i do. And we are not even accounting for the people who have quit eve for the very reasons stated in my postings. And if you feel a sense of achievement by a bar loading over time when you did nothing absolutely nothing other than wait long periods of time maybe sell a few plex to put some implants in look at evemon log in change a skill in the que and keep doing this. If this really and truly gives you a sense of accomplishment you must have lead one hell of a fail life. I bet you high five your friends when you bring water to a boil or finish a download. This game could be so much better if they would stop listening to self entitled losers like you guys and gave some reason to really play the game for extended periods of time. The reason they do not do such a thing is they don't want to / can not deal with larger server loads. I will direct you to a few postings back by some other players who also have a problem with the current system. When you get bored after a month of play because every mission is every system is the same thing with a different name and isk making with low sp is so **** poor its not even worth it mining or missioning. So with the lack luster thrill of the current skilling system in which you have absolutely no hand is skilling up other than waiting time and knowing that you can spend a mere 65 bucks a month and out do the isk making capabilities of just about all players with low sp where is the thrill where is the sense of achievement. Ya sure you can pvp and do it with friends but like i stated earlier when your using tech 1 guns (and get real no new player is gonna use meta 4's for pvping just like im sure most vet players wont) on a tech two tank when you blow up a ship and then go look at kill boards and all your friends who where using the tech 2 guns did all the dmg and you pulled like 5% where is the accomplishment in that? So whats left for players like my self where you get out done by plex sellers and macro miners where the missions are stale and the complexes all look the same. We start to think of other ways that would make the game more fun for us, such as being more versatile and having more options available to us via SP where we are used for cheap fleet in pvp because we are good for nothing else but cannon fodder maybe get a web and a point off before we are blown up. (i am using we as in others like me i was able to survive my pvp encounters but that was due to my WT's being complete idiots) But what happens next time when i go up vs a better pvper and im only good to the corp as cheap fleet cannon fodder? Can not tell me that new players are so widely welcome in higher pvp corps because what they have to offer on the field in terms of dps or tank. no it's because they want to use us give us a few cheap ass frigates and use us for bait ya real sense of accomplishment there. I would rather really work to get into the ships i am flying and then work to learn how to use them. Why are you still here? Go back to WOW!
Wurzel Gummidge	Posted - 2010.02.15 07:22:00 - [427] Edited by: Wurzel Gummidge on 15/02/2010 07:22:11 I've been hearing your arguments for wanting to grind your way up to the top level and what I think you should do, besides shove a turnip up your back end for being a right dipstick, is go play that new fangled game, Star Trek Offline or whatever it be. I hear that you can grind your way up to Captain in a very short space of time, which I think would suit you perfick. That's, of course, if'n you aint one of the devs of that game comin' in here to stir up the chickens, cos you does seem like one of those agent provaricators. I can't read and I can't write, but that doesn't really matter, Cos I come from Trowbridge and I can drive a tractor
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.15 07:24:00 - [428] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Originally by: yourdoingitwrong everyone objected to his fail lol-post the concept of a majority is kind of lost on him and likely will be till the end of this stellar thread. Your claiming majority in your favor not everyone in eve feels as you do in fact there are some that feel such as i do. And we are not even accounting for the people who have quit eve for the very reasons stated in my postings. And if you feel a sense of achievement by a bar loading over time when you did nothing absolutely nothing other than wait long periods of time maybe sell a few plex to put some implants in look at evemon log in change a skill in the que and keep doing this. If this really and truly gives you a sense of accomplishment you must have lead one hell of a fail life. I bet you high five your friends when you bring water to a boil or finish a download. This game could be so much better if they would stop listening to self entitled losers like you guys and gave some reason to really play the game for extended periods of time. The reason they do not do such a thing is they don't want to / can not deal with larger server loads. I will direct you to a few postings back by some other players who also have a problem with the current system. When you get bored after a month of play because every mission is every system is the same thing with a different name and isk making with low sp is so **** poor its not even worth it mining or missioning. So with the lack luster thrill of the current skilling system in which you have absolutely no hand is skilling up other than waiting time and knowing that you can spend a mere 65 bucks a month and out do the isk making capabilities of just about all players with low sp where is the thrill where is the sense of achievement. Ya sure you can pvp and do it with friends but like i stated earlier when your using tech 1 guns (and get real no new player is gonna use meta 4's for pvping just like im sure most vet players wont) on a tech two tank when you blow up a ship and then go look at kill boards and all your friends who where using the tech 2 guns did all the dmg and you pulled like 5% where is the accomplishment in that? So whats left for players like my self where you get out done by plex sellers and macro miners where the missions are stale and the complexes all look the same. We start to think of other ways that would make the game more fun for us, such as being more versatile and having more options available to us via SP where we are used for cheap fleet in pvp because we are good for nothing else but cannon fodder maybe get a web and a point off before we are blown up. (i am using we as in others like me i was able to survive my pvp encounters but that was due to my WT's being complete idiots) But what happens next time when i go up vs a better pvper and im only good to the corp as cheap fleet cannon fodder? Can not tell me that new players are so widely welcome in higher pvp corps because what they have to offer on the field in terms of dps or tank. no it's because they want to use us give us a few cheap ass frigates and use us for bait ya real sense of accomplishment there. I would rather really work to get into the ships i am flying and then work to learn how to use them. who cares what ship spinners and afk trainers think, they probably don't care enough to come post here... and when you are that new of a player what do you need isk for? I found my isk making matched up with my skill training very well for the first few months. in other games you would just have to grind away at npcs. and if it is crap for you it was just as crap or even more crap for us when we did it. if it irks you so much why don't you just leave?
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.15 07:25:00 - [429] Originally by: Wurzel Gummidge Edited by: Wurzel Gummidge on 15/02/2010 07:22:11 I've been hearing your arguments for wanting to grind your way up to the top level and what I think you should do, besides shove a turnip up your back end for being a right dipstick, is go play that new fangled game, Star Trek Offline or whatever it be. I hear that you can grind your way up to Captain in a very short space of time, which I think would suit you perfick. That's, of course, if'n you aint one of the devs of that game comin' in here to stir up the chickens, cos you does seem like one of those agent provaricators. according to the #sto channel on coldfront there are tons of admirals and no admiral content. game has been out like 2 weeks or something?
Wurzel Gummidge	Posted - 2010.02.15 07:30:00 - [430] Edited by: Wurzel Gummidge on 15/02/2010 07:30:31 What do Admirals do on their day off? Roger the cabin boy. I can't read and I can't write, but that doesn't really matter, Cos I come from Trowbridge and I can drive a tractor

Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.15 07:38:00 - [431] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 14/02/2010 09:57:04 Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 14/02/2010 09:54:51 Quote: It's the perfect trade-off : * older players are happy a longer time because they have something to point at and go "look at this big number, this is mine, I'm content with my achievements", * average-age players are happy longer because they can already play almost on even footing with the older players, still having some skill levels that might make a difference in some situations to train for * and newer players are happy because in numbers they can already make a difference even if solo they would be slaughtered, and they will soon become average-age players so they have that to look forward to too. This is what is called an Infinite_regress Where as the oldest player will always be on top the average player will become the older player the new player will become the average player and a new string of new players come in. Then we have the oldest oldest player than an older player than an old play and average player then still more new players see this will continue to be a problem every day new players join this regress is happening making the gap wider and wider new players are not getting any edge but every day new players start this gap widens. It will only get worse with time when tech two titans get release or any thing like it in the future because you know damn well the older players will want something beter than the titan as time goes on and only the oldest oldest players have the ability to use them and its gonna take much more skilled and Versatile players sp wise to defend it. Like it or not one day the game will have to make a change it doesn't sound like CCP is intending to close the doors on this game anytime soon with all the new stuff in development. And i am sure they are losing more new player accounts then old player accounts due to the main subject of this entire post. Oh and i almost forgot no one ever said why a new player should not worry about catching older players in total sp and versatility not specialization or are you going to start telling me versatility doesnt matter either??????????????? Gotta respond to this one, are you seriously now going as far as stating in a thread about not being rewarded enough for your play time, that a person that's been in EVE for over 6 years should not have more versitality then a "new" player? Massive troll failure there. When that is exactly the only reward that's purely based on your characters age... everything else is gained by actually playing the game.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.15 07:46:00 - [432] Player skillz Mr Troll from other game, not char skillz iz what it takes to play EvE. Serious reply, though, my favorite ship is the Merlin, even though I can fly HACs and full-T2 fit my BSes. You know how long it take to get perfect skills for it? Less than 3 months. TL:DR WoW/ STO ---> Can I haz your stuff? ------------ Railgun performance required fix: - +15% railgun damage modifier - +10% PG for Caldari railgun ships
Wakboth	Posted - 2010.02.15 07:58:00 - [433] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester See now that noone has been able to tell me why it would be such a big deal to allow newer players to close a total SP gap I now know what it really is. its your damn ego thats why you hate thi sidea so much. Not one of you has given me a reason a real reason to why its such a bad idea what would it do to the game how would it effect the current staus of the game. In 14 pages, you didn't read any posts really? Akita gave you hundreds available reasons.... SO, ok, it's my ego, and all posters against you are only self centered people, wait, only you are a fair people !! That's why we all (except 1 or 2 guys, yes, it's true) are arguing your idea ! Thank you, Chesterr, you changed my life, i now know the truth about me. About only ONE real reason? It's a bad idea, because it would make you happy, and i want you to ragequit. PS : Sorry for trolling, but it seems it's the only way to communicate with another troll. I should have learned troll language instead of german, it's far more useful here.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.15 08:04:00 - [434] Akita is a moron and a carebear and has no room posting on this she is nothing but a troll her self i challenge you to hunt down her posting she trolls every post with a complaint
lollerwaffle Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE	Posted - 2010.02.15 08:11:00 - [435] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Akita is a moron and a carebear and has no room posting on this she is nothing but a troll her self i challenge you to hunt down her posting she trolls every post with a complaint Quoted for irony. Do you even know what carebear means? Originally by: salva dore Cloak should not be AFK solution. What do you think? Originally by: AFK Cloaker
Wurzel Gummidge	Posted - 2010.02.15 08:12:00 - [436] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Akita is a moron and a carebear and has no room posting on this she is nothing but a troll her self i challenge you to hunt down her posting she trolls every post with a complaint I'm getting to like you, you got a pretty mouth I can't read and I can't write, but that doesn't really matter, Cos I come from Trowbridge and I can drive a tractor
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.15 08:18:00 - [437] Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 15/02/2010 08:22:02 Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 15/02/2010 08:20:14 Quote: Quoted for irony. Do you even know what carebear means? sure i do care bears lol moron what do you think eve players made up the term care bear in relation mmos? god i swear some of you people are so damn ignorant and don't even know it wow i can not get over the fact that you posted this you really think that dont you your dumb ass thinks eve players used this term first?
Avalon Champion Gene Works	Posted - 2010.02.15 08:28:00 - [438] The reason Eve mon has a place is that it allows you to optimize you plan your training and attributes, it was also usefull for seeing when a skill finished so you could time them finishing as close as possible to when you were online, and especially useful before the training queue. So Chester, say you persuade CCP to change the system, so that new players get the on-line boost you suggest. Would you be in favour of it being a retospective addition, say for everyone in the last year, or moving forward only? If its moving forward only, how many weeks and hours on line would it take a complete noob to reach say 40-50mil sp? What are the chances of a 40-50mil sp player gaining at the same rate in the same timeframe, thus maintaining the differential or would there be a hard cap on when the bonus stops applying.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.15 08:37:00 - [439] Originally by: Avalon Champion The reason Eve mon has a place is that it allows you to optimize you plan your training and attributes, it was also usefull for seeing when a skill finished so you could time them finishing as close as possible to when you were online, and especially useful before the training queue. So Chester, say you persuade CCP to change the system, so that new players get the on-line boost you suggest. Would you be in favour of it being a retospective addition, say for everyone in the last year, or moving forward only? If its moving forward only, how many weeks and hours on line would it take a complete noob to reach say 40-50mil sp? What are the chances of a 40-50mil sp player gaining at the same rate in the same timeframe, thus maintaining the differential or would there be a hard cap on when the bonus stops applying. That would be fine if they could determine who was an active player and who was the moron that would log on que some skills check his contracts and log. or the person who logged on for only 10 hours a week. And yes they would be a hard cap i am not sure what it would be at or maybe a certain % gain for the first 10mil then less % for the next 10 mil on up but still keep a small bonus in even for the 100 mil sp players who are active not sitting in a pos bubble or docked up ect ect this would still give a advantage to the player who logs more hours if your a high sp player who is active in game then you deserve the bonus every bit as much as i do. I just hate the idea that these people can gain the sp at the same rate as more active people.
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp.	Posted - 2010.02.15 08:46:00 - [440] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Your claiming majority in your favor not everyone in eve feels as you do in fact there are some that feel such as i do. And we are not even accounting for the people who have quit eve for the very reasons stated in my postings. You do know it is possible to have a majority without it being unanimous, right? Originally by: Chesterr theMolester This game could be so much better if they would stop listening to self entitled losers like you guys and gave some reason to really play the game for extended periods of time. There are plenty of reasons; if there weren't, there wouldn't be such a thing as vets in Eve at all. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester When you get bored after a month of play because every mission is every system is the same thing with a different name and isk making with low sp is so ** poor its not even worth it mining or missioning. Eve is best played when making your own content, not just relying on what is being spoonfed to you. That would be a characteristic of other games. Again, your problem. Originally by:** Chesterr theMolester So with the lack luster thrill of the current skilling system in which you have absolutely no hand is skilling up other than waiting time and knowing that you can spend a mere 65 bucks a month and out do the isk making capabilities of just about all players with low sp where is the thrill where is the sense of achievement. If you can't find it in Eve then perhaps this is not the game for you. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Ya sure you can pvp and do it with friends but like i stated earlier when your using tech 1 guns (and get real no new player is gonna use meta 4's for pvping just like im sure most vet players wont) on a tech two tank when you blow up a ship and then go look at kill boards and all your friends who where using the tech 2 guns did all the dmg and you pulled like 5% where is the accomplishment in that? Let me tell you a story about my very first PvP kill. Around August 2004, I was flying a griffin up in Deklein. My friends and I (gankgeddon, tanked scorp, blackbird, and me) got word of a hostile scorpion moving through the area. He soon appeared in local, and we spread out around the gates to try and find him. He soon appeared at the gate where our tanked scorp was. He jammed our scorp but couldn't break the tank. Hostile scorp begins crawling for the gate, as he'd landed 15km off (no warp-to-zero in those days). I was next to arrive and got the tackle on the enemy, the web slowing him down to buy enough time for the geddon and blackbird to arrive and finish him off. Without little noobie me in my little horribly fit fully tech 1 griffin, that battleship would have gotten away. Of course my damage was nothing, but that's not what I was there for. In those days the battleship was the biggest there was, and I'd just helped kill one; I was bouncing off the walls for weeks after that day. You may also find this Goonswarm recruiting poster of interest. No FC with half a brain will ever turn away another tackler; if you actually had any PvP experience you might have known that. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester But what happens next time when i go up vs a better pvper and im only good to the corp as cheap fleet cannon fodder? Your fault for not picking your fights correctly. But even then, your loss of a t1 ship is hardly going to break anyone's bank, now is it? Even if you get podded, low SP clones are dirt cheap compared to the ones I'm paying for these days. That's actually a pretty good reason to get into PvP sooner rather than later; no matter when you start you can expect to lose a few ships, so you may as well start small and minimise your costs while you learn. /Ben

Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.15 09:09:00 - [441] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I just hate the idea that these people can gain the sp at the same rate as more active people. So stop whining and go play some other MMO where there are no l33t artificial SP caps stopping you from enjoying your hardcoreness. As you can clearly see from your 15-page troll effort, people who are playing Eve like it just the way it is, and they collectively outpay you.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.15 09:21:00 - [442] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Akita is a moron and a carebear and has no room posting on this she is nothing but a troll her self i challenge you to hunt down her posting she trolls every post with a complaint _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
lollerwaffle Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE	Posted - 2010.02.15 09:23:00 - [443] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 15/02/2010 08:22:02 Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 15/02/2010 08:20:14 Quote: Quoted for irony. Do you even know what carebear means? sure i do care bears lol moron what do you think eve players made up the term care bear in relation mmos? god i swear some of you people are so damn ignorant and don't even know it wow i can not get over the fact that you posted this you really think that dont you your dumb ass thinks eve players used this term first? Never stop posting Originally by: salva dore Cloak should not be AFK solution. What do you think? Originally by: AFK Cloaker
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.15 09:36:00 - [444] Quote: Never stop posting don't worry I won't
lollerwaffle Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE	Posted - 2010.02.15 09:48:00 - [445] Edited by: lollerwaffle on 15/02/2010 09:49:09 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: Never stop posting don't worry I won't I'm gonna let you in on a huge secret. HUGE SECRET. You know all those players giving you detailed reasoning to counter your posts? You know how there's like 13-15 pages of them? And you've noticed that no one really agrees with you in this thread, apart from a very very very small minority? That's because you're actually right in every single argument you make. Us older players and 99% of the newer players are getting SP boosts. That's why we're trying so hard to mislead you. It's because we're afraid that you might latch on the THE SECRET. Truth of the matter is, every 50k or so subscribers, CCP randomly chooses 1 or 2 people to screw over. The fact of the matter is, in all likelihood you were the one chosen among your batch, hence why you feel the system is unfair. The rest of us get so much SP we often sell it off, since we can farm SP all day grinding rats and mining. In fact, I even trained Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5 twice because it's a pretty place to have your SP in (me getting podded had nothing to do with it). Everything you ask for was actually implemented in the game from its beginning, it's just that CCP makes us sign an agreement never to reveal this to any player unlucky enough to be in the situation you're in. The truth is, EVE Online caters to 'power gamers' in exactly the same way as other MMO's do, except they choose to advertise it differently, so the unlucky few won't think they're being persecuted unfairly. CCPDONTBANMEkthx Originally by: salva dore Cloak should not be AFK solution. What do you think? Originally by: AFK Cloaker
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2010.02.15 09:57:00 - [446] Grind-for-skills: No, EVE skill training doest work like that. Pay-for-skills: No NO NO!! If you want this, you're playing the wrong game. Cya. P.S Don't come on here talking about unfairness and imbalance. Like life, EVE is not fair and you need to get in line, maggot. ---------------------- They're angry there was damage done to their ship.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.02.15 09:59:00 - [447] Originally by: lollerwaffle You know all those players giving you detailed reasoning to counter your posts? You know how there's like 13-15 pages of them? And you've noticed that no one really agrees with you in this thread, apart from a very very very small minority? Don't diss theMolester, he's got a good point! I want to grind NPCs for EXP like in Diablo
Ba'Rumph The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2010.02.15 10:09:00 - [448] Edited by: Ba''Rumph on 15/02/2010 10:13:46 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester sure i do care bears lol moron what do you think eve players made up the term care bear in relation mmos? god i swear some of you people are so damn ignorant and don't even know it wow i can not get over the fact that you posted this you really think that dont you your dumb ass thinks eve players used this term first? Thus begins the abuse. Fail-troll is fail. GTFO of my game! Btw, are you the alt of Chester theMolester?
Wurzel Gummidge	Posted - 2010.02.15 10:13:00 - [449] I think they toys have officially been thrown out of the pram. I can't read and I can't write, but that doesn't really matter, Cos I come from Trowbridge and I can drive a tractor
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.15 10:17:00 - [450] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester That would be fine if they could determine who was an active player and who was the moron that would log on que some skills check his contracts and log. or the person who logged on for only 10 hours a week. And yes they would be a hard cap i am not sure what it would be at or maybe a certain % gain for the first 10mil then less % for the next 10 mil on up but still keep a small bonus in even for the 100 mil sp players who are active not sitting in a pos bubble or docked up ect ect this would still give a advantage to the player who logs more hours if your a high sp player who is active in game then you deserve the bonus every bit as much as i do. I just hate the idea that these people can gain the sp at the same rate as more active people. Or we can keep the current system that is great for casual players like me who work long hours.

Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2010.02.15 10:33:00 - [451] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I just hate the idea that these people can gain the sp at the same rate as more active people. And who exactly are 'these people'? Are you referring to those that have responded in this thread, or would this be some other 'these'? You talk about elitism, we have a prime example here. And why shouldn't 'these people' gain sp at the same rate as anyone else, their money is as good as yours, mine or anyone else. All you pay for each month is the right to access the EVE servers, what you choose to do with that access is pretty much up to you. Some people actually play the game and really don't get upset if someone else has more sp than they do.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.15 10:33:00 - [452] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: Never stop posting don't worry I won't Keep it up for a year and don't do anything else but train skills. You should be able to get 20M SP by the end of the year. Then you can undock and find out who's right.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.15 10:50:00 - [453] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester See now that noone has been able to tell me why it would be such a big deal to allow newer players to close a total SP gap Wrong. Quote: Not one of you has given me a reason a real reason to why its such a bad idea what would it do to the game how would it effect the current staus of the game. Wrong. Quote: If they implemented said plan ccp couldnt handle the pay load so they sucker people into the game untill they realize what i have and quit. Wrong. But if this means you're quitting, then yay! The system works! Quote: That and making it almost a need to have more than one account. Wrong. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.15 10:54:00 - [454] Forgot I actually had to points to make. The way the EVE skill system works is the most new player friendly of any MMO out there. Cause it works on the 80-20 principal. 80% of the bonus of any given skill is achievable with 20% of the training time. The last 20% of the bonus takes 80% of the training time. Which for instance means that while it's impossible to ever become better at flying a gallente blaster boat in pure SP, something that took me several years to train for. You can get to 80% of the bonuses ( which is 95%+ of the over combat effectiveness ) in 20% of the training time. Which brings me to my second point, and I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread yet I think.... Attribute remapping. When I started EVE it was possible to create characters with a base perception of 3 whole points. I was one of the people that ended up with that type of character, and this ment that when I started getting interested in combat after a year or so of playing it took me a extreme amount of time to train up my perception based skills. In the time I trained up my 17mil skillpoints in gunnery I could have easily trained 40-50mil SP in other skills, just because of that horrible starting stat. From all the changes that have been made that have made life as a new character easier, I think that was the biggest boost.
Demetri Slavic Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.02.15 11:10:00 - [455] Edited by: Demetri Slavic on 15/02/2010 11:10:16 Proof that total SP isnt everything
Peter Powers FinFleet IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.15 12:24:00 - [456] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester And if you feel a sense of achievement by a bar loading over time when you did nothing absolutely nothing other than wait long periods of time maybe sell a few plex to put some implants in look at evemon log in change a skill in the que and keep doing this. If this really and truly gives you a sense of accomplishment you must have lead one hell of a fail life. you are looking in the wrong place then. what makes you think that it should give a feel of accomplishment? Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I bet you high five your friends when you bring water to a boil or finish a download. This game could be so much better if they would stop listening to self entitled losers like you guys and gave some reason to really play the game for extended periods of time. Funny, there are alot of players which are playing this game vor several years, some even since beta in 2003. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester When you get bored after a month of play because every mission is every system is the same thing with a different name and isk making with low sp is so ** poor its not even worth it mining or missioning. The start is so easy nowadays, you have sp boost at the beginning, you have remaps, you have alot better tutorials.. back when i started we had nothing, thats what we had. so what did we do in our first days? the same thing we do now, hang out on teamspeak, do stuff together. personally i went down the pvp route quite quick, but even before i did pvp there was stuff todo. Also a good way of spending the time: reading forums to learn more about the game. Originally by:** Chesterr theMolester So with the lack luster thrill of the current skilling system in which you have absolutely no hand is skilling up other than waiting time and knowing that you can spend a mere 65 bucks a month and out do the isk making capabilities of just about all players with low sp where is the thrill where is the sense of achievement. actually, personally i love eves skill system, i love that there is no stupid level cap, no grinding to get a stupid skill up - that i can be away for a few days and my character development still goes on. Originally by: Chesterr theMolester [i]more whine about how he feels cannonfodder, and does not have a sense of accomplishment because hes only doing 5% damage on a killmail, removed so i have some space to write on I dont know why it is so important to see an individual accomplishment. EVE is a MMO, you are not playing solo. In EVE players can accomplish more then in any other Game i know. You can get e-famous for your actions, you can get rich, you can play the game on a political level. you can actually hold space. everyone makes his own story in eve, and experiencing that story, with the successes and the failures that happen, this is the achievement you should look for. You whine about being cannonfodder? focus your training the stuff your flying - it doesnt take that long to get a proper fitting, and there is no reason why a new guy should fly ships he cannot afford anyways. if everyone would show this egocentric attitude of yours, who would be the guy flying the coverts ops? who would drop the cyno? who would be the pilot with the fuel for the blackops ships? the guy in the jumpfreighter with the strontium? that just as a few examples of roles people decide to take, without some "achievement". Roles which if not filled make it impossible for empires to exist. If a corp takes a noob, then not because they want cannonfodder (cannonfodder is bad, makes the win/loss ratio look bad) but because they see said noob as an investment for the future, because in half a year he might have integrated and become a part of the team, he might have learned how to train his character and how to put those sp to use, he might actually proof worthy - but trust me, if you keep the attitude you have, you will more likely become a corp hopper. Everanking Lotteries - will be back soon!
Nefrin Maldoes Minmatar Outer Rim Survey and Salvage	Posted - 2010.02.15 12:59:00 - [457] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I would rather really work to get into the ships i am flying and then work to learn how to use them. [yoda voice] That is why you fail. [/yoda voice] In all seriousness, there is something I haven't read here as a valid reason why Chesterr's idea will never happen. Because CCP said so. It's not your game. It's not my game. It's their game. They make the rules, and this is how they want it. ---------- while(horse==dead) { beat(); }
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.15 13:06:00 - [458] Originally by: Nefrin Maldoes In all seriousness, there is something I haven't read here as a valid reason why Chesterr's idea will never happen. Because CCP said so. It's not your game. It's not my game. It's their game. They make the rules, and this is how they want it. The funny thing is, people said this back on page 2, but like all facts about this game that goes against to his unresearched and unfounded beliefs and hypotheses, he ignored it. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.15 13:14:00 - [459] Originally by: Tippia That's the really sad part: what he asks for is already in the game – just in a way that rewards you for playing the game, rather than grinding stats. In essence, what he wants is to turn the game on its head and reward you for not actually playing it, but for chasing pointless numbers instead... ...while, surprisingly, at the same time, complaining that people that "do not play the game" get too much of whatever he thinks they're getting but in his opinion shouldn't. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.15 13:20:00 - [460] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Tippia That's the really sad part: what he asks for is already in the game û just in a way that rewards you for playing the game, rather than grinding stats. In essence, what he wants is to turn the game on its head and reward you for not actually playing it, but for chasing pointless numbers instead... ...while, surprisingly, at the same time, complaining that people that "do not play the game" get too much of whatever he thinks they're getting but in his opinion shouldn't. Happens to most trolls, when they talk long enough they start defeating their own arguments. Which is just awesome really, saves others the trouble. Although I must admit, you did a awesome job in this thread, troll or no troll, countering bull like this is a worthwhile cause.

Wurzel Gummidge	Posted - 2010.02.15 15:00:00 - [461] Is school over yet? I'm missing my friend, he makes me laugh more than a badger on a sugar rush. I can't read and I can't write, but that doesn't really matter, Cos I come from Trowbridge and I can drive a tractor
chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.02.15 16:11:00 - [462] Edited by: chrisss0r on 15/02/2010 16:13:33 one of the main reasons many people play eve is that to be successfull and competitive you dont have to grind 24/7, instead u need a brain between your ears. The op claims to be a hardcore gamer but in fact he's just a hardcore reallife loser. Almost all mmorpgs tranlate into grindtime = success. Thats why all those lowlifes like them so much. They create an illusion of success while the only challenge is to stare at the screen for endless hours. No matter how stupid you are. Just make sure you have no job family and friends and you will join a top tier guild/clan whatever. That is what the critizises and the sp are just a straw man. Eve punches you in the face if you are stupid and no amount of gametime or grind will change that. Op blaims the sp system but it's really just him. Eve ist just like real life at this aspect and thus the op fails at both. Before success there must be effort. After effort there might be nothing.
Dr Karsun Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.15 16:22:00 - [463] Current SP gain speed - 2772 sp / h. Remap right, get +5's as fast as you can, loan your butt to the slavers. I'm not a vet, I haven't even been here for 2 round years, but let me tell you one thing - you are in a far better situation than we were earleyer. Skill reqs are dropping with time. Stuff gets cheaper - the margins of trade get lower and lower every month, every year. Ever rewards you for staying longer with the game, not playing longer. Sure, some people say it's flawed logic. But it's consequent. If you can't see it, we can't really help you. WOW rewards you for playing mroe hours, eve rewards you for good personal skills and time spent paying CCP for the game. Yes, that's right, you've heard it. If you want to gain SP faster, just earn as much isk as you can as fast as you can and go buy your self a character off the characeter bazaar. If you manage to make 4-5b isk, you'll buy a great few year old character and that's like... 400m per GTC, so buy 10gtcs, sell them and buy a good character for a start. But seriously, I like the system. Each time you get a new, bigger, better ship you really feel rewarded. You have to wait, sure. But the wait isn't as long as you think it is.
Kendon Riddick	Posted - 2010.02.15 16:35:00 - [464] OMG eve mimics real life!!! all these old guys out there, with big houses and nice cars why cant i have that at 18 years old! getting older and wiser of overpowered!!! nerf learning! give everything a newb wants to him! bla bla bla this thread sucks. newbs buy the "clue" skillbook and train it to 5, it wont do you any good but it will stop the old 'overpowered' players a chance to avoid reading your drivel!
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2010.02.15 16:43:00 - [465] Originally by: Kendon Rid**** OMG eve mimics real life!!! all these old guys out there, with big houses and nice cars why cant i have that at 18 years old! getting older and wiser of overpowered!!! nerf learning! give everything a newb wants to him! bla bla bla this thread sucks. newbs buy the "clue" skillbook and train it to 5, it wont do you any good but it will stop the old 'overpowered' players a chance to avoid reading your drivel! I'm sorry, we abandoned logic, reason and common sense for whining, tantrums and dummy spitting on page 2. Could you please desist from this absurd behaviour of being sensible, ta muchly ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Fergus McRae Gallente New Eden Regimental Navy Rebel Alliance of New Eden	Posted - 2010.02.15 17:07:00 - [466] Originally by: Elena Laskova Every player new to an established MMO should ask themselves "can I ever catch up to the people who have been playing for years?". This means in player skill, in in-game capabilities (SP in EvE), economically (ISK per hour in EvE), socially (get access to a good 0.0 Corp), etc. If the answer is "no" for that person, the game is not worth joining. I call shenanigans. Given relative rates of play in the average MMO no new player will be able to catch up with older players, it just can't happen. Based on that, if you were correct, nobody would ever play an MMO that they didn't join on launch day. Whether or not one can catch up, as a new player, with older players should be the LAST thing a person should consider when joining a game, for two reasons. Firstly, because doing so will always yield an answer of "no", especially with a game like EVE where skills are accrued in real time. Secondly, because it relies on the presupposition that subscribers are a static base, which they're not. It's not about "catching up" with older players, it's about recognizing the reality that MMOs are all about turn-over. Assuming an older player never, ever stops playing, the new player will never catch up, at leats in terms of skills, however, it's not about that. The reality is that as a new player you must be willing to deal with the realities of starting some seven years after launch, but it also means that you'll likely be around after the older players have gone, which means that at some point the new player will be the old player as new players continue to join after them. There is no "catching up" in MMOs, there is only the revolution of players as older ones die off and newer ones arrive on the scene. --- Fergus McRae Cerebral Mastication
Sista Jaxx Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.02.15 17:11:00 - [467] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester See now that noone has been able to tell me why it would be such a big deal to allow newer players to close a total SP gap I now know what it really is. its your damn ego thats why you hate thi sidea so much. Not one of you has given me a reason a real reason to why its such a bad idea what would it do to the game how would it effect the current staus of the game. Chesterr, there's 16 pages of REAL reasons, RAL answers, and REAL dialogue specifically refuting your 'idea' and explaining why it's a bad idea. There is NO REASON for low sp characters to catch up to high sp characters. Other than selfish ones. Period.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.15 17:18:00 - [468] Originally by: Fergus McRae Given relative rates of play in the average MMO no new player will be able to catch up with older players, it just can't happen. Sure they can. It's called a "level cap". How many characters does a "hardcore" WoW player have on average ? Don't they ever worry their older characters will somehow fall behind ? Oh, right, they can't fall behind all that much, since they are already at the maximum they can obtain ! As for items, well, next expansion will make all current items feel like junk, so even if they keep skipping every now and then on some of their characters, it's no biggie anyway. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Fergus McRae Gallente New Eden Regimental Navy Rebel Alliance of New Eden	Posted - 2010.02.15 17:30:00 - [469] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Fergus McRae Given relative rates of play in the average MMO no new player will be able to catch up with older players, it just can't happen. Sure they can. It's called a "level cap". How many characters does a "hardcore" WoW player have on average ? Don't they ever worry their older characters will somehow fall behind ? Oh, right, they can't fall behind all that much, since they are already at the maximum they can obtain ! As for items, well, next expansion will make all current items feel like junk, so even if they keep skipping every now and then on some of their characters, it's no biggie anyway. Right, fair enough, but I was thinking about EVE when I wrote that, so I probably wasn't entirely clear. The other reality, however, is that a level cap only guarrantees that you "Catch up" in terms of EXP points. The fact is that there is no "catching up" in EVE, it just doesn't happen, and as someone with less than six months into the game (I only joined up last September) I'm perfectly fine with that. In fact, I don't see how anyone could have a problem with it. Insisting on some kind of percieved "equity" for newer players is like showing upu late to the party and *****ing people out that they've had more to eat than you have. Dude, if you wanted to make sure you got your share of the meatballs, you shoulda been here on time. --- Fergus McRae Cerebral Mastication
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.15 17:36:00 - [470] Originally by: Fergus McRae Originally by: Elena Laskova Every player new to an established MMO should ask themselves "can I ever catch up to the people who have been playing for years?". This means in player skill, in in-game capabilities (SP in EvE), economically (ISK per hour in EvE), socially (get access to a good 0.0 Corp), etc. If the answer is "no" for that person, the game is not worth joining. I call shenanigans. Given relative rates of play in the average MMO no new player will be able to catch up with older players, it just can't happen. Based on that, if you were correct, nobody would ever play an MMO that they didn't join on launch day. Whether or not one can catch up, as a new player, with older players should be the LAST thing a person should consider when joining a game, for two reasons. Firstly, because doing so will always yield an answer of "no", especially with a game like EVE where skills are accrued in real time. Secondly, because it relies on the presupposition that subscribers are a static base, which they're not. It's not about "catching up" with older players, it's about recognizing the reality that MMOs are all about turn-over. Assuming an older player never, ever stops playing, the new player will never catch up, at leats in terms of skills, however, it's not about that. The reality is that as a new player you must be willing to deal with the realities of starting some seven years after launch, but it also means that you'll likely be around after the older players have gone, which means that at some point the new player will be the old player as new players continue to join after them. There is no "catching up" in MMOs, there is only the revolution of players as older ones die off and newer ones arrive on the scene. In terms of SP's only you can catch up. This is the point of many replies. It's too simplistic to think of total SP's it's where those SP's are spent that is important. For any given role in EVE there is an SP cap. For many roles this cap is low. The specialisation is where the training takes a long time (usually for ships) But even if not a specialist any player can do well in a given field. The Op bangs on about Tech 2 as if that's important and the minimum required to do anything. That's complete rubbish of course but he chooses to ignore that.

Fergus McRae Gallente New Eden Regimental Navy Rebel Alliance of New Eden	Posted - 2010.02.15 17:40:00 - [471] Edited by: Fergus McRae on 15/02/2010 17:41:15 Originally by: Zartanic In terms of SP's only you can catch up. This is the point of many replies. It's too simplistic to think of total SP's it's where those SP's are spent that is important. For any given role in EVE there is an SP cap. For many roles this cap is low. The specialisation is where the training takes a long time (usually for ships) But even if not a specialist any player can do well in a given field. The Op bangs on about Tech 2 as if that's important and the minimum required to do anything. That's complete rubbish of course but he chooses to ignore that. That's also true. There's a real cogent piece of data in that statement, Zartanic. The truth of the matter is that you're quite right in that while some people are whining about total SP, ultimately it's about choosing what you want to do and what role you want to fill. Look, I have a character less than six months old flying a Hulk. My alt account is even younger and has the skill points accrued to fly an Orca. The real hard truth here is that if you simply pick what you want to do and concentrate on those skills it takes very little time to get to the top tier of whatever it is that you're trying to do. "Catching up", in this thread, is being used to signify the total accrument of SP, not the skills themselves, which completely misses the point. --- Fergus McRae Cerebral Mastication
Bud Johnson Broski Enterprises	Posted - 2010.02.15 17:43:00 - [472] Originally by: Kendon Rid**** OMG eve mimics real life!!! all these old guys out there, with big houses and nice cars why cant i have that at 18 years old! getting older and wiser of overpowered!!! nerf learning! give everything a newb wants to him! bla bla bla this thread sucks. newbs buy the "clue" skillbook and train it to 5, it wont do you any good but it will stop the old 'overpowered' players a chance to avoid reading your drivel! Inb4 CCP implements Alzheimer's disese for older chars.
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.15 17:55:00 - [473] Originally by: Fergus McRae Edited by: Fergus McRae on 15/02/2010 17:41:15 Originally by: Zartanic In terms of SP's only you can catch up. This is the point of many replies. It's too simplistic to think of total SP's it's where those SP's are spent that is important. For any given role in EVE there is an SP cap. For many roles this cap is low. The specialisation is where the training takes a long time (usually for ships) But even if not a specialist any player can do well in a given field. The Op bangs on about Tech 2 as if that's important and the minimum required to do anything. That's complete rubbish of course but he chooses to ignore that. That's also true. There's a real cogent piece of data in that statement, Zartanic. The truth of the matter is that you're quite right in that while some people are whining about total SP, ultimately it's about choosing what you want to do and what role you want to fill. Look, I have a character less than six months old flying a Hulk. My alt account is even younger and has the skill points accrued to fly an Orca. The real hard truth here is that if you simply pick what you want to do and concentrate on those skills it takes very little time to get to the top tier of whatever it is that you're trying to do. "Catching up", in this thread, is being used to signify the total accrument of SP, not the skills themselves, which completely misses the point. When I started a few months ago I was overwhelmed with the skills I seemed to need. I did get the impression I was stuffed. I then discovered Meta items and the fact Tech 2 was not always the smart way to go. I also found out that other than ships and weapons a lot of skills did not need to be that high to be maxed out or close to it (most mods only need training to level 3 or 4 for Tech 2). I also grasped that Level 5 training was simply not always required. I understand why new players get the wrong impression which is why, when they post here, its explained to them. I bet players like Cribba are maxed out in Ewar but he may never fly an Ewar ship so his SP's have no value to him. So to me there is a difference between total SP and Effective SP which is a far lower number.
Tason Hyena Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.15 18:13:00 - [474] Quote: Sure they can. It's called a "level cap". How many characters does a "hardcore" WoW player have on average ? Don't they ever worry their older characters will somehow fall behind ? Oh, right, they can't fall behind all that much, since they are already at the maximum they can obtain ! As for items, well, next expansion will make all current items feel like junk, so even if they keep skipping every now and then on some of their characters, it's no biggie anyway. Very few players are at that level in a game-at level cap with zero to do. Usually because there are a boatload of other things to do, like post-cap merit systems, grinding for gear and reputation, farming, raising alts, doing PvP and events. Really only the top guilds on a server max out game content unless its a game like champions online that released with virtually none. Even WoW players are still running content. Catching up is a valid concern then, especially if the endgame favors RNG influenced rare drops and large endgame raiding. Most casual players wont cap the possibilities a game has to offer before the next expansion hits. This is why we see games over time become easier and more soloable. Thing about EVE is there is nothing to catch up to and no real content aside from blowing someone up. There's absolutely zero progressive content except for sov and pos, and once they are erected its back to circular content of defense and attack. That tends to make the game dull for a lot of people. However it does make it accessible since you can contribute from the start in limited roles.
Meredith Midnight	Posted - 2010.02.15 19:39:00 - [475] Quote: Thing about EVE is there is nothing to catch up to and no real content aside from blowing someone up. There's absolutely zero progressive content except for sov and pos, and once they are erected its back to circular content of defense and attack. That tends to make the game dull for a lot of people. However it does make it accessible since you can contribute from the start in limited roles. This and that blurb about being cannon fodder, and you've just summarized my new player experience. And I'm willing to bet that a significant portion of the new players feel the same. But EVE is one of the few games where you can help someone achieve their goals, even if you don't have your own, and that's good enough for me. (The new revamped exploration system is fun though). It also helps that the game supports a casual play style with no severe penalty. Honestly though, would anyone be against a counterstrike version of EVE? I loved it when the test server gave you maxed out skills for their titan tests, me and my friends just running around in maxed out cruisers for supercheap and just constantly destroying each other with different fits to see what worked and what didn't.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2010.02.15 19:47:00 - [476] When I joined my first corp just a few weeks into the game, I was cannon fodder for the first week or two of the wardecs that started a month after I joined. Then I started getting a clue and found my way onto an early Saturday morning war target hunt in my Vexor. We chased this guy all the way out to their low sec base, and thanks to the time learning about how to act in fleets and on comms, I was able to remain disciplined til the word to go was given. Along with a small team of corp mates, I helped out FC take down a war target who was trying to get back to the station after having aggressed him. So spend a bit of time in tackle frigates, you may think you're being given the job of cannon fodder but it pays off. You might actually get to learn a few things and enjoy the game a bit more. ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Hardiel Da'le'mei	Posted - 2010.02.15 20:24:00 - [477] 1) Isk is easy to make - stop worrying 2) Low SP players can kick the goolies of high SP players - its about skill and layout not time played 3) My 2004 character (has a break) can be beaten by anyone who's pvp trained and practiced. I'm pants :P 4) My Later 2009 character can do most anything my 2004 character can do...maybe not so good :P
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.15 21:18:00 - [478] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Fergus McRae Given relative rates of play in the average MMO no new player will be able to catch up with older players, it just can't happen. Sure they can. It's called a "level cap". How many characters does a "hardcore" WoW player have on average ? Don't they ever worry their older characters will somehow fall behind ? Oh, right, they can't fall behind all that much, since they are already at the maximum they can obtain ! As for items, well, next expansion will make all current items feel like junk, so even if they keep skipping every now and then on some of their characters, it's no biggie anyway. Thing that everyone seems to miss, is that EVE has that level cap going on too - I've hit it in Caldari ships. But where in other games, I'd be hanging around the level cap bragging, and playing a character with a different class, to level them up... in EVE, I can do that on my 'main'. I can even alternate.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.15 22:39:00 - [479] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I just hate the idea that these people can gain the sp at the same rate as more active people. I hate that other people get paid more than me even though I work 80 hours a week at a ****ty job that a monkey could do. ceo sits on his ass all day and makes a lifetime of wages for farting. comming soonÖ Eve online Communist version!
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.15 23:20:00 - [480] Originally by: Hardiel Da'le'mei 1) Isk is easy to make - stop worrying 2) Low SP players can kick the goolies of high SP players - its about skill and layout not time played 3) My 2004 character (has a break) can be beaten by anyone who's pvp trained and practiced. I'm pants :P 4) My Later 2009 character can do most anything my 2004 character can do...maybe not so good :P Hey, stop hitting the Op with facts, they confuse him. Make something up and throw out a lot of strawmen arguments, it's what he did. I love the bit where he says he's hardcore. No way is he Hardcore unless he means senseless grinding. What a truly interesting and innovative game that would be. So exciting and full of new opportunities, no personal skills needed, just get to the 'level' and gear up for the win.

King Dave The Asha'man	Posted - 2010.02.15 23:47:00 - [481] /me hugs my online phallus "Evil Edna > just get director roles, put child **** in the corp bio and then petition ccp"
Salmeria GoonFleet	Posted - 2010.02.15 23:48:00 - [482] After making a bunch of accounts, I found that it doesn't that long to train a new character towards one specific thing. Maybe a few months at most.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.16 04:02:00 - [483] Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 16/02/2010 04:05:32 Quote: OMG eve mimics real life!!! all these old guys out there, with big houses and nice cars why cant i have that at 18 years old! getting older and wiser of overpowered!!! nerf learning! give everything a newb wants to him! bla bla bla Actually people are buying homes at a much younger age these days and younger people are also getting into more successful high paying jobs at a younger age same goes for the nice cars. avg age So if eve was more like real life the older players would be falling behind the younger player fail some more please.. home buyers getting younger
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.16 04:07:00 - [484] wow how do all you guys keep epic failing so damn hard ?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.16 04:08:00 - [485] Edited by: Akita T on 16/02/2010 04:14:12 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Actually people are buying homes at a much younger age these days [...] same goes for the nice cars. You mean, progressively younger people are going increasingly rampant on debts they can't possibly repay in order to MORTGAGE a house or car they can't afford, don't you ? EVE EQUIVALENT (that actually happens now) : increasingly younger characters are flying battleships they can barely fly and/or afford Originally by: Chesterr theMolester and younger people are also getting into more successful high paying jobs at a younger age [CITATION OF STATISTICS NEEDED] Also "lol, global economic crisis". EVE EQUIVALENT : it's much easier for younger people nowadays to make ISK than it used to be for new people in the past ; obviously, the prerequisite being, you actually work for it instead of complaining it can't be done and not even trying (or doing burger-flipping work like mining) Originally by: Chesterr theMolester wow how do all you guys keep epic failing so damn hard ? That's because you're not using the computer screen dummy, it's a MIRROR you're looking at _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.16 04:16:00 - [486] Quote: [CITATION OF STATISTICS NEEDED] I don't need to prove anything it's common knowledge If you can use it so can I think i know what your issue is .. You fail at life you got a fail job and your only success is in eve so you are going to try to ravage anyone who threatens to take that away from you. Me on the other hand like irl if i see something i want i go after it and get it. I know my self i am 29 I've owned my home for 6 years and my own business for 8 My older brother who is 34 has owned his own home for 10 and his own business for 12 Both have owned new cars since we where 18 I think it is either my myspace page or my facebook that has me cars and home on them i could post up a link to my 2400 sq ft home if you wish..
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.16 04:23:00 - [487] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: [CITATION OF STATISTICS NEEDED] I don't need to prove anything it's common knowledge If you can use it so can I think i know what your issue is .. You fail at life you got a fail job and your only success is in eve so you are going to try to ravage anyone who threatens to take that away from you. Me on the other hand like irl if i see something i want i go after it and get it. I know my self i am 29 I've owned my home for 6 years and my own business for 8 My older brother who is 34 has owned his own home for 10 and his own business for 12 Both have owned new cars since we where 18 I think it is either my myspace page or my facebook that has me cars and home on them i could post up a link to my 2400 sq ft home if you wish.. you are about to turn 30 and all you can do is whine about video games. also since you seem to be a productive citizen where does all this time to whine come from?
chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.02.16 04:24:00 - [488] yeah and you are here whining that u cannot 23/7 powergame into eve and how unfair that is :( well gtg, those 10 veirons don't drive themselves :/
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.16 04:27:00 - [489] Here's a small analogy between "EVE" and "RL" occupations: Mining in highsec -> burger flipping Mining in 0.0/wormholes -> garbage man Mission-running -> retail employee (supermarket stacker L1, supermarket cashier L2, department store L4, specialized boutique L4, personal shopper L5) Mercenary work -> bouncer, bodyguard Pirate -> alleyway mugger Manufacturer -> engineer T2 BPO owner -> software developer inventor -> software bootlegger Hauler -> well, umm, yeah, hauler Trader -> stockmarket player moon-miners -> mining or oil companies in conflict areas moon reactions -> smelters, refineries alliance leader -> multi-level marketing CEO _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.16 04:27:00 - [490] Quote: you are about to turn 30 and all you can do is whine about video games. And how old are the rest of you? Don't come accuse me of something when your no better

Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.16 04:31:00 - [491] Ah, yes, the "you disagree with me therefore you must be a loser in real life" defense... you know when people usually start to employ that ? When they have absolutely nothing else going for them, when even the last attempt at a seemingly logical argument has failed to result in something they like. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.16 04:43:00 - [492] Quote: Ah, yes, the "you disagree with me therefore you must be a loser in real life" defense... you know when people usually start to employ that ? When they have absolutely nothing else going for them, when even the last attempt at a seemingly logical argument has failed to result in something they like. NO i was basing this off the fact that you wanted to post on here vs yell at customers. That statement tells me you do not hold any substantial position at your place of employment and take out your anger on customers or on threads
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.16 04:54:00 - [493] Logic fail. Even as a company CEO you still have customers you want to yell at. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.16 04:57:00 - [494] Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 16/02/2010 05:01:12 Originally by: Akita T Logic fail. Even as a company CEO you still have customers you want to yell at. So what if your current job position Akita ? Any real CEO doesn't gripe that much about customers where they would rather log onto a message board then scream at customers.. So please please do tell me what is it you do?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.16 05:01:00 - [495] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester So what if your current job position Akita ? If I told you I'm something that contradicts your argument, you'd say I was lying anyway, so what's the point in answering to such an obvious attempt of ad-hominem attack ? _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.16 05:10:00 - [496] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Chesterr theMolester So what if your current job position Akita ? If I told you I'm something that contradicts your argument, you'd say I was lying anyway, so what's the point in answering to such an obvious attempt of ad-hominem attack ? But the problem is you can't do that without lying about it. Since when have you cared if i thought you where lying?? If my assumption was not true you would be the first one to let me know. You can tell a lot about a person in a very short amount of time by the words they use to express them selves or how they have expressed them selves thus far. Not once on this entire post or any of the other ones that you have trolled have you not tried to prove your point regardless what anyone else thought about it. Saying things like "beats screaming at customers" is very far off from "even as a ceo you got customers you would like to yell at" Most CEO's of any substantial company do not even deal with customers in such a way. You got Managers who take care of that for you and if they can not handle it you got a manager of that manager or a customer support department. When is that last time you got to speak to a CEO of a company as a customer because you where upset? It never gets that far. So again i ask you what is it you do for work?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.16 05:22:00 - [497] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester But the problem is you can't do that without lying about it. If your "old post diggings skills" would be equally good regardless of how much they benefit or damage your argument, you would already know what my "job position" is, and all the changes in my "job status" since I started playing EVE. But of course, you wouldn't be searching for any of that. FYI, right now, I do freelance work in power substation design, and I don't have any bosses except the current customers, which are by default annoying as hell for a variety of reasons I don't care to get into. Quote: Since when have you cared if i thought you where lying?? Since I don't care to engage much more than absolutely necessary in obvious ad-hominem attacks which contribute nothing to the topic at hand, that's since when. Quote: If my assumption was not true you would be the first one to let me know. And, wait, didn't I just let you know ? Except I now did it after I let you look like even more of a fool. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.16 05:29:00 - [498] Quote: I do freelance work
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.16 05:42:00 - [499] So, what exactly are you proposing, giving up on everything you were trying to "explain" about "how badly designed" EVE is allegedly (not that I would blame you for wanting to change the subject, since you're losing so badly on all fronts), just so we can argue for several more pages about the merits of employment vs self-employment or entrepreneurship (obviously never reaching a consensus), just so you'd eventually also give up on trying to assassinate the character of people that disagree with you (because it's irrelevant anyway) ? _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.16 05:53:00 - [500] Originally by: Akita T So, what exactly are you proposing, giving up on everything you were trying to "explain" about "how badly designed" EVE is allegedly (not that I would blame you for wanting to change the subject, since you're losing so badly on all fronts), just so we can argue for several more pages about the merits of employment vs self-employment or entrepreneurship (obviously never reaching a consensus), just so you'd eventually also give up on trying to assassinate the character of people that disagree with you (because it's irrelevant anyway) ? Nope not at all there was just a few people who wanted to say eve was just like real life when it is nothing close. In real life you control how fast you acquire certain goods and skills. The more time you spend doing it the faster you will acquire it. If i started to go to school to become an auto mechanic and I only showed up 1 hour a week to pick up my books and i started this 3 years ago The person who started one year ago showing up for class 40 hours a week will become a certified mechanic before i ever do. or insert any specialty that doesn't come as common knowledge. If i where to go work for somebody and i worked 1 hours a week and my goal was to be the manager one day chances are the person who does the job just as good as much but is doing it 40 hours a week will get that job over me as well even if he started after me. so i was just pointing out they are wrong when comparing eve to real life.

Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.16 06:00:00 - [501] Edited by: Akita T on 16/02/2010 06:02:16 OF COURSE EVE is not exactly like real-life, nobody claimed that. There are similarities and differences, some things in EVE resemble real life, others are exactly the opposite, and so on and so forth. Out of most MMOs out there, if you were to list and combine all possible differences and similarities, EVE would end up one of the, if not the closest one. People over here were merely pointing out those aspects where EVE _was_ similar to real-life. And that's all people were saying... and at least half-jokingly, if not completely so. Nobody said that EVE is _exactly_ like real life. Besides, if you want something that is exactly like real life, you have actual real life. EVE's a game. Entertainment. NOT work. At least as long as you don't MAKE it a second job yourself. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Yuki Kulotsuki	Posted - 2010.02.16 06:08:00 - [502] I don't want to stare but I can't look away. And it's in slow motion. Originally by: CCP Lemur THIS IS GOD: ... IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE REQUESTS I'M AVAILABLE SUNDAY FROM 10:30 TO 12:00 TO RECEIVE YOUR PRAYERS.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.16 06:09:00 - [503] Well that's been my point this whole freaking time if i put more time into it not talking about how long ago i started my account I would get more of a benefit out of it not just isk. The skill level required to play this game imo is not all that much i can see where some people would think it is but god this has been over stated so much it's sickening. And even at making isk CCP has made it hardly worth doing anything else but trading full time to make isk when a person can drop 65 bucks real money and make a bil isk a damn month so what other reason besides a damn chat room is their to play eve . Player skill? Like i said this game while to some might be very complex and difficult to others its just an other game with different game mechanics and if your the type of person that can pick up anything and understand it relatively fast this wears out fast. Making ISK? Well **** all if you do not like trading because your going to be out done by anyone willing to cheat them selves and drop 65 a month.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.16 06:28:00 - [504] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Well that's been my point this whole freaking time if i put more time into it not talking about how long ago i started my account I would get more of a benefit out of it not just isk. YOU DO get more benefit out of it, not just ISK. That's what everybody else was telling you all along. You just won't accept the fact there can possibly be more to the game than just SP count and ISK in wallet. Quote: Player skill? Like i said this game while to some might be very complex and difficult to others its just an other game with different game mechanics and if your the type of person that can pick up anything and understand it relatively fast this wears out fast. There are three separate things here : understanding it, memorizing it for use when it matters, and applying it when it matters. Understanding any particular thing about EVE is no big deal at all, because there's nothing that's really complicated. Memorizing it all can be very difficult due to sheer volume, but that's not such a big problem either if you only focus on something specific you want to do. However, actually applying it when it matters in a manner that helps you is where player skill comes into the equation. And this is where most people have the greatest difficulties. Quote: Making ISK? Well ** all if you do not like trading because your going to be out done by anyone willing to cheat them selves and drop 65 a month. I barely had over 10 bil ISK networth a year ago. I now have closer to a 200 bil ISK networth (after I take out various obligations), which may or may not turn into either 100 bil or 500 bil in a couple of months, depending on how good or bad I was at predictions. Yes, bil, with a B. My total online time necessary to pull it all off was probably well below 8 hours, with maybe another 40 hours or so tops spent doing out-of-game calculations. In case you didn't know, I spend far more time nowadays on the forums than what I spend in-game, because I am pretty busy in RL most of the time.** I only used existing game mechanics, I didn't sell GTCs, I didn't cheat nor exploit, I didn't scam nor steal, I didn't grind like a madman. The total RELEVANT SP to my activities was under 2 mil, and I wasn't even particularly secretive about anything I had done. Any 1-month-old-newbie could have THEORETICALLY done the same. Practically, he would have had absolutely no snowflake's chance in a lava pit of pulling it off. Care to comment on that too ? _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Clair Bear Ursine Research and Production	Posted - 2010.02.16 06:35:00 - [505] Confirming my net worth also increased substantially after I stopped grinding/mining/hauling and other gruntwork which distracted me from making ISK. OP, you have your answer. If you wish to grind your ass right off, go for it. Then buy a character with ISK. There you go, you can poopsock your way to parity with the "vets" just like any other MMO. Can we /thread yet? And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question?
Ba'Rumph The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2010.02.16 07:01:00 - [506] Jesus Christ, this thread is like a train wreck with Chesterr being the guy on fire jumping around claiming that he's "alright".
yourdoingitwrong	Posted - 2010.02.16 07:27:00 - [507] yeh hes charred to a crisp at this point hahahaha never seen a dude get quite this owned in the general forum. a one month old infant trying to tell ccp/people of eve the way the game should be run keeps this comedy merri-go-round thread spinning ill have to remember it for my next troll thread.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.16 07:34:00 - [508] Originally by: Zartanic Originally by: Hardiel Da'le'mei 1) Isk is easy to make - stop worrying 2) Low SP players can kick the goolies of high SP players - its about skill and layout not time played 3) My 2004 character (has a break) can be beaten by anyone who's pvp trained and practiced. I'm pants :P 4) My Later 2009 character can do most anything my 2004 character can do...maybe not so good :P Hey, stop hitting the Op with facts, they confuse him. Make something up and throw out a lot of strawmen arguments, it's what he did. I love the bit where he says he's hardcore. No way is he Hardcore unless he means senseless grinding. What a truly interesting and innovative game that would be. So exciting and full of new opportunities, no personal skills needed, just get to the 'level' and gear up for the win. That's exactly what "hardcore" means in most MMOs. If you're not prepared to put 60-80 hours a week into grinding, then you're not hardcore. For some reason, the OP seems to think that EVE is lacking something because it does not reward this style of play above all others. He implicitly believes that grinding is somehow morally superior to achieving success by intelligent gameplay, superior social skills, better game knowledge, etc. Why? Who knows. Perhaps he can tell us why we should be encouraged to work harder, not smarter.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.16 07:44:00 - [509] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I know my self i am 29 I've owned my home for 6 years and my own business for 8 Let me get this straight: you "own your own business", yet you want to spend your time grinding in a video game? Man, I didn't know Amway were still going.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.16 07:58:00 - [510] Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 16/02/2010 07:58:12 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I know my self i am 29 I've owned my home for 6 years and my own business for 8 Let me get this straight: you "own your own business", yet you want to spend your time grinding in a video game? Man, I didn't know Amway were still going. Oh i see what you did there I own a custom motorcycle shop build customer bikes speed mods ect custom paint what have you. And also a small marketing company i get paid to get and keep peoples attention.

Kirana Si	Posted - 2010.02.16 08:29:00 - [511] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Oh i see what you did there I own a custom motorcycle shop build customer bikes speed mods ect custom paint what have you. And also a small marketing company i get paid to get and keep peoples attention.
Sista Jaxx Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.02.16 08:32:00 - [512] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: you are about to turn 30 and all you can do is whine about video games. And how old are the rest of you? Don't come accuse me of something when your no better I work 2 nights per week and pull in at least 60k per year. 'nuff said
Ba'Rumph The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2010.02.16 08:56:00 - [513] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Oh i see what you did there I own a custom motorcycle shop build customer bikes speed mods ect custom paint what have you. And also a small marketing company i get paid to get and keep peoples attention. That's nothing. I'm an astronaut and my dad was a Ghostbuster.
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.16 08:57:00 - [514] I'm a Hooker. This thread has gone well beyond anything relevant so I thought I'd add that in.
Killer Gandry Caldari TerraNovae	Posted - 2010.02.16 09:32:00 - [515] Being one of those socalled "older" players I have seen this topic seen come by a lot of times. So here the vieuw of an "older" player on this. Back in the days when I started it was a pinnacle when you reached the skillpoints to effectivly fit and fly a cruiser. Battlecruisers weren't ingame yet and a BS seemed like eons away. Not only SP wise but also being able to afford one. You couldn't make enough ISK per day to be able to buy one off the rack after like a week of missioning lvl 1's like nowadays. The SP came in slowly because you had learning skills and that was it. +3 implants were a luxury and +5's even more rare then an honest politician. So initial advancement was slow as hell, but a lot of us stuck through it. Mining nirvanna was an Apocalypse with mininglasers, nothing could beat one and there was no such thing as gang bonusses or Orca's to mine into. You had to haul all ores in in a regular Industrial. Putting 10 battleships in prodution meant you were a very good industrialist with a good backbone to support the vast amounts of minerals required. If I compare all that to how it is nowadays then new players have a damn lot less to complain than you think. Now to the PvP part. Back when I started the missile users were damn fine for PvP. A Raven was an awesome sight in a battle and if you got targetted by one and there was no way to warp out you knew you were in deep trouble. So a lot of PvP people crosstrained or if they were lucky and Caldari just trained up the skills for a Raven, meaning shield tank and missiles. Logistics were only remote stuff you put on other regular ships, there were no bonusses like some T1 cruisers have now. By your analogy all the time I spend on training shield tank and missiles were a waste of time for PvP then. I do however beg to differ. Instead of being all powerfull like you seem to want to be you have more of a nicheroll now when it comes to flying a Raven for PvP. The Drake as you state it is a good vessel for PvP, if it weren't there wouldn't be so many in use for PvP. You say that you need HaM AND HML specialisation to be effective in PvP. Bollox. I haven't used HaM's in PvP on a Drake yet, the Dps might be nice but the range issue is what keeps me away from them. HML's are just fine. I don't have to be the number one in damage dealt. Also when I started the sales of characters wasn't allowed, in no way. However it strikes me as odd that after it was allowed to sell characters for ISK the first threads about old versus new player threads started to pop up. The whole imbalance as you say there is is just a mute point. The only imbalance is that I paid my subscription for 6 years and I had to spend a lot of time and money to crosstrain because stuff I liked got nerfed or changed in a way it wasn't fun for me to play anymore. Specialisation is the key word and many oldbees were a bit of Jack of all Trades to be succesfull back then. The only real advantage I have now is the broader spectrum of ships and setups I can pick from to fly. But when it comes to a one on one versus a specialised character in equal ships then I have no real advantage except maybe if I am lucky my experience.
Peter Powers FinFleet IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.16 11:26:00 - [516] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I think i know what your issue is .. You fail at life you got a fail job and your only success is in eve so you are going to try to ravage anyone who threatens to take that away from you. Me on the other hand like irl if i see something i want i go after it and get it. I know my self i am 29 I've owned my home for 6 years and my own business for 8 My older brother who is 34 has owned his own home for 10 and his own business for 12 Both have owned new cars since we where 18 I think it is either my myspace page or my facebook that has me cars and home on them i could post up a link to my 2400 sq ft home if you wish.. you are my hero. can i have your stuff? Everanking Lotteries - will be back soon!
Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.16 11:43:00 - [517] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: [CITATION OF STATISTICS NEEDED] I don't need to prove anything it's common knowledge If you can use it so can I think i know what your issue is .. You fail at life you got a fail job and your only success is in eve so you are going to try to ravage anyone who threatens to take that away from you. Me on the other hand like irl if i see something i want i go after it and get it. I know my self i am 29 I've owned my home for 6 years and my own business for 8 My older brother who is 34 has owned his own home for 10 and his own business for 12 Both have owned new cars since we where 18 I think it is either my myspace page or my facebook that has me cars and home on them i could post up a link to my 2400 sq ft home if you wish.. I think I see the problem here, overachiever who feels entitled to anything he can grab. He obviously sees games as another way to further flaunt his ambition, a true epeen waver. Fair enough, you did well with your business, nothing wrong with that, but in the end EVE is just a game. And if you think we're all such losers why are you playing the same game as we do? I wonder if your corp mates realise you view those around you with such contempt.
Clementina Eye of God	Posted - 2010.02.16 12:01:00 - [518] Originally by: Samantha U I think I see the problem here, overachiever who feels entitled to anything he can grab. He obviously sees games as another way to further flaunt his ambition, a true epeen waver. I don't. I see a troll and a liar. Although Chester does see games as another way to further flaunt his 'ambition', if you can call it that.
Elohllird Funky Chill Collective	Posted - 2010.02.16 12:07:00 - [519] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: [CITATION OF STATISTICS NEEDED] I don't need to prove anything it's common knowledge If you can use it so can I think i know what your issue is .. You fail at life you got a fail job and your only success is in eve so you are going to try to ravage anyone who threatens to take that away from you. Me on the other hand like irl if i see something i want i go after it and get it. I know my self i am 29 I've owned my home for 6 years and my own business for 8 My older brother who is 34 has owned his own home for 10 and his own business for 12 Both have owned new cars since we where 18 I think it is either my myspace page or my facebook that has me cars and home on them i could post up a link to my 2400 sq ft home if you wish.. lol just lol
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.16 12:19:00 - [520] Originally by: Elohllird Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: [CITATION OF STATISTICS NEEDED] I don't need to prove anything it's common knowledge If you can use it so can I think i know what your issue is .. You fail at life you got a fail job and your only success is in eve so you are going to try to ravage anyone who threatens to take that away from you. Me on the other hand like irl if i see something i want i go after it and get it. I know my self i am 29 I've owned my home for 6 years and my own business for 8 My older brother who is 34 has owned his own home for 10 and his own business for 12 Both have owned new cars since we where 18 I think it is either my myspace page or my facebook that has me cars and home on them i could post up a link to my 2400 sq ft home if you wish.. lol just lol Don't hate just because your still living in moms basement at the age of 35 and working as a bag boy at your local market.

Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.16 12:24:00 - [521] Your trollfu is failing, seriously, personal insults... that's so 2nd millenium...
Elohllird Funky Chill Collective	Posted - 2010.02.16 12:28:00 - [522] Edited by: Elohllird on 16/02/2010 12:28:16 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Originally by: Elohllird Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: [CITATION OF STATISTICS NEEDED] I don't need to prove anything it's common knowledge If you can use it so can I think i know what your issue is .. You fail at life you got a fail job and your only success is in eve so you are going to try to ravage anyone who threatens to take that away from you. Me on the other hand like irl if i see something i want i go after it and get it. I know my self i am 29 I've owned my home for 6 years and my own business for 8 My older brother who is 34 has owned his own home for 10 and his own business for 12 Both have owned new cars since we where 18 I think it is either my myspace page or my facebook that has me cars and home on them i could post up a link to my 2400 sq ft home if you wish.. lol just lol Don't hate just because your still living in moms basement at the age of 35 and working as a bag boy at your local market. Pretty poor burn for a 29 year old man who owns his own house and business, thought you would be more pro.
Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.16 12:34:00 - [523] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Originally by: Elohllird Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: [CITATION OF STATISTICS NEEDED] I don't need to prove anything it's common knowledge If you can use it so can I think i know what your issue is .. You fail at life you got a fail job and your only success is in eve so you are going to try to ravage anyone who threatens to take that away from you. Me on the other hand like irl if i see something i want i go after it and get it. I know my self i am 29 I've owned my home for 6 years and my own business for 8 My older brother who is 34 has owned his own home for 10 and his own business for 12 Both have owned new cars since we where 18 I think it is either my myspace page or my facebook that has me cars and home on them i could post up a link to my 2400 sq ft home if you wish.. lol just lol Don't hate just because your still living in moms basement at the age of 35 and working as a bag boy at your local market. If, as you claim, your main is in a corp, I reckon there may be some money to be made if someone discovered the identity of your main, I'm sure a few people might pay for that info
Doctor Mabuse	Posted - 2010.02.16 12:36:00 - [524] I have a question for Uncle Troll here. As an owner of a custom bike shop, who would he rather employ? The young lad who's spent the last year in college studying the books 40 hours a week to learn all about motor mechanics, or the one that has spent the last year getting his hands dirty in a number of different types of garages; repairing bikes, vans, trucks, cars, diesels, petrol, V8s, V6s etc etc I know which I'd choose. ------------------------------------ Who's trip-trapping on my bridge?
Nefrin Maldoes Minmatar Outer Rim Survey and Salvage	Posted - 2010.02.16 13:08:00 - [525] The Horror! ---------- while(horse==dead) { beat(); }
Riedle Minmatar Raptus Regalitor Black Legion.	Posted - 2010.02.16 13:16:00 - [526] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: [CITATION OF STATISTICS NEEDED] I don't need to prove anything it's common knowledge If you can use it so can I think i know what your issue is .. You fail at life you got a fail job and your only success is in eve so you are going to try to ravage anyone who threatens to take that away from you. Me on the other hand like irl if i see something i want i go after it and get it. I know my self i am 29 I've owned my home for 6 years and my own business for 8 My older brother who is 34 has owned his own home for 10 and his own business for 12 Both have owned new cars since we where 18 I think it is either my myspace page or my facebook that has me cars and home on them i could post up a link to my 2400 sq ft home if you wish.. This just in - Chester is a young Donald Trump In Real Life(TM) More at 11!
Fergus McRae Gallente New Eden Regimental Navy Rebel Alliance of New Eden	Posted - 2010.02.16 13:17:00 - [527] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Originally by: Elohllird Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: [CITATION OF STATISTICS NEEDED] I don't need to prove anything it's common knowledge If you can use it so can I think i know what your issue is .. You fail at life you got a fail job and your only success is in eve so you are going to try to ravage anyone who threatens to take that away from you. Me on the other hand like irl if i see something i want i go after it and get it. I know my self i am 29 I've owned my home for 6 years and my own business for 8 My older brother who is 34 has owned his own home for 10 and his own business for 12 Both have owned new cars since we where 18 I think it is either my myspace page or my facebook that has me cars and home on them i could post up a link to my 2400 sq ft home if you wish.. lol just lol Don't hate just because your still living in moms basement at the age of 35 and working as a bag boy at your local market. Really, dude? Really? This is all you've got left? --- Fergus McRae Cerebral Mastication
Nefrin Maldoes Minmatar Outer Rim Survey and Salvage	Posted - 2010.02.16 13:19:00 - [528] Anyone want to start a pool as to when Godwin's Law will kick in? ---------- while(horse==dead) { beat(); }
SeismicForce Terra Incognita Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.02.16 13:23:00 - [529] Originally by: Zartanic I'm a Hooker. This thread has gone well beyond anything relevant so I thought I'd add that in. Pics for proof? Originally by: Allisie In a recent interview, a dev mentioned that ships and skills cause lag and will be removed in EVE 2.
Danks Caldari Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds	Posted - 2010.02.16 14:01:00 - [530] Wow, all this because someone is annoyed he can't powerlevel his character.

Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.16 14:14:00 - [531] Edited by: Samantha U on 16/02/2010 14:14:22 Originally by: Riedle Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Quote: [CITATION OF STATISTICS NEEDED] I don't need to prove anything it's common knowledge If you can use it so can I think i know what your issue is .. You fail at life you got a fail job and your only success is in eve so you are going to try to ravage anyone who threatens to take that away from you. Me on the other hand like irl if i see something i want i go after it and get it. I know my self i am 29 I've owned my home for 6 years and my own business for 8 My older brother who is 34 has owned his own home for 10 and his own business for 12 Both have owned new cars since we where 18 I think it is either my myspace page or my facebook that has me cars and home on them i could post up a link to my 2400 sq ft home if you wish.. This just in - Chester is a young Donald Trump In Real Life(TM) More at 11! Yes, at 11, puberty might start kicking in and he'll end up with a lovely couple of black eyes when his balls drop
Elohllird Funky Chill Collective	Posted - 2010.02.16 14:31:00 - [532] this is the best thread c/d
Daemonspirit Redhawk Tribal Trust	Posted - 2010.02.16 14:45:00 - [533] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 10/02/2010 08:39:03 Yes i lash out ask people telling me to buy isk and characters i don't care if that is CCP approved or not its CHEATING. And no i'm not trolling i am making a legit example of what i find wrong with the game and other people do as well hence the replies of "oh not this again" And did i mention buying isk and characters is CHEATING I've identified the problem! Chesterrrrrr doesn't understand the difference between cheating, and a process introduced by ccp to limit and curtail, as much as possible, actual cheating. Point is Chesterrrr, if you have your own business' (two of them! Good for you lad!) you should certainly have the money to afford the GTC's to buy a toon. This is not cheating. Its only "cheating" in that you have self-imposed limits that (in this case) are wrong. Not just mistaken, but wrong, and, as this thread proves, a source of irritation for you. To make your life better, and your time in Eve more enjoyable, i recommend getting some GTC's, and a high sp toon. This is not cheating, its Playing to win. This article does a fine job (although dated and not *specifically" for this game) of explaining why you aren't getting the response you desire from this game. Point is, your self-imposed limits are limiting what you can accomplish. Your issue, not CCP's, or anyone elses... Enjoy. ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö

CCP Adida	Posted - 2010.02.16 14:57:00 - [534] Locking topic because it is no longer on topic. Adida Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us



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