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Sista Jaxx	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:15:00 - [121] Originally by: Cawfield OP: Do you think that maybe your inability to grasp the basic concepts of this game stem from the fact that you play MMOs 40 hours a week? This may mean that your l33t hardcore gaming skills are top notch, but perhaps your social skills are beyond subpar. This is, by and by, a primarily political and social game, and if you're unable to sway popular opinion (and lets face it, no matter how sound you think your arguments are, you have yet to do this), you can forget about amassing any sort of considerable power in this game. Even if you had a kajillion bazillion skill points, you would lose EVE. Exactly. I can't remember if there was even another player that was supporting the idea of the OP.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:20:00 - [122] Originally by: Sista Jaxx Originally by: Cawfield OP: Do you think that maybe your inability to grasp the basic concepts of this game stem from the fact that you play MMOs 40 hours a week? This may mean that your l33t hardcore gaming skills are top notch, but perhaps your social skills are beyond subpar. This is, by and by, a primarily political and social game, and if you're unable to sway popular opinion (and lets face it, no matter how sound you think your arguments are, you have yet to do this), you can forget about amassing any sort of considerable power in this game. Even if you had a kajillion bazillion skill points, you would lose EVE. Exactly. I can't remember if there was even another player that was supporting the idea of the OP. If no one has shared my same idea why has my entire post been riddled with people saying not this debate again?
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:21:00 - [123] I like you Here's 70m skill points, what will you do with them? ~ Soar Like a Penguin
Sista Jaxx	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:21:00 - [124] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester His arguments are nothing like mine try again please and stop me from being fail at debating Fixed.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:25:00 - [125] Originally by: Sista Jaxx Originally by: Chesterr theMolester His arguments are nothing like mine try again please and stop me from being fail at debating Fixed. Oh i see what you did . Typical thing to do when one doesn't have a valid reply in a debate
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:25:00 - [126] Edited by: Tippia on 10/02/2010 14:25:40 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester His arguments are nothing like mine try again please and stop being fail at debating Sure. His points are the same – you just don't have any arguments to back them up because you just want to regurgitate your unfounded nonsense and don't want to debate. If you wanted to debate, you'd have answered a lot more posts than you have now and not just repeated the same thing over and over again. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:30:00 - [127] Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 10/02/2010 14:31:54 Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 10/02/2010 14:31:34 Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 10/02/2010 14:25:40 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester His arguments are nothing like mine try again please and stop being fail at debating Sure. His points are the same û you just don't have any arguments to back them up because you just want to regurgitate your unfounded nonsense and don't want to debate. If you wanted to debate, you'd have answered a lot more posts than you have now and not just repeated the same thing over and over again. Ok well i am going to have to assume you fail at reading too if you think those two post are anything alike.. And i have made my debate point go get someone to read it out loud for you.
Eldern Minderhost	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:32:00 - [128] BECAUSE OF FALCON!
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:32:00 - [129] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Ok well i am going to have to assume you fail at reading too if you think those two post are anything alike. How do they differ, in your opinion? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:37:00 - [130] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Ok well i am going to have to assume you fail at reading too if you think those two post are anything alike. How do they differ, in your opinion? Sigh first of all i suggested a augmentation to the current system not a replacement. And second i never said the game sucked or anything else that person had to say. I also argued some of the people do not want to work for their gains IE: same amount of sp gains no matter if you play 5 mins or 5 hours. people suggesting that buying isk and characters isn't cheating and is a good solution to my post. reply
Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:39:00 - [131] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 10/02/2010 14:31:54 Edited by: Chesterr theMolester on 10/02/2010 14:31:34 Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 10/02/2010 14:25:40 Originally by: Chesterr theMolester His arguments are nothing like mine try again please and stop being fail at debating Sure. His points are the same û you just don't have any arguments to back them up because you just want to regurgitate your unfounded nonsense and don't want to debate. If you wanted to debate, you'd have answered a lot more posts than you have now and not just repeated the same thing over and over again. Ok well i am going to have to assume you fail at reading too if you think those two post are anything alike.. And i have made my debate point go get someone to read it out loud for you. And that is where you are going wrong with EVE, you're making assumptions based on prior experiences with other MMOs most likely. You fail utterly in both reading comprehension and debating skills since the only rebuttals I've really seen from you are telling those who are trying to explain why the training system works for EVE is telling them that they fail at one or the other. If you think that EVE fails so badly at being just like all the other games out there, maybe that's what makes it so enjoyable for the rest of us.
Sista Jaxx	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:40:00 - [132] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Originally by: Sista Jaxx Originally by: Chesterr theMolester His arguments are nothing like mine try again please and stop me from being fail at debating Fixed. Oh i see what you did . Typical thing to do when one doesn't have a valid reply in a debate Yeah. It's been a couple years away from gaming forums. I just had to. Pls. forgive. Back on topic though, if you feel that one of the numerous and sensical retorts to your proposition are not 'quite' on the mark perhaps you should reexamine your initial claim for clarity and make any adjustments accordingly so that we may clearly understand what you are stating. Otherwise, your arguments have been negated repeatedly and conclusively. If however you feel that your initial post is coherent, then let it go young gamer. Your opinions about the changing of certain game dynamics will not come to pass by simply posting it on these forums. Perhaps if you feel strongly enough about it then you could redirect your efforts into an e-mail form expressly for CCP developers to consider. Just saying.
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:42:00 - [133] Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 10/02/2010 14:42:39 The only thing that the OP spurned in my head was the concept of play time equaling more SP's. CCP has always said they want to get players to log on and play andnot just switch skills. The suggestion that popped into my head would probably cause more lag and I do not think I really would support the idea, but something like a 10% (just some random # I pulled form the air ) increase in skill training speed while you are logged on may help noobs out a little and give older players more incentive to log on and play? As stated before this may equal certain players just logging on all of their alts just to get the bonus without actually playing, thus hogging resources and advancing faster with little consequence. I said I doubt I would support it, but I thought it sounded good in my head even with the apparent flaws. / puts on his flame suit Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
Tarhim Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:42:00 - [134] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester I also argued some of the people do not want to work for their gains IE: same amount of sp gains no matter if you play 5 mins or 5 hours. Again: so what? Without doing nothing else you'll have all SP and nowhere to go. Quote: people suggesting that buying isk and characters isn't cheating Um, because it isn't. You want to spend much time in game? Go ahead, do it, make obscene amounts of isk = play for free, make manufacturing base, whatever. Buy +5 implants and you will SKILL FASTER.
Dalek Commander	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:45:00 - [135] Train up to use a Hulk (won't take that long). Mine till your eyes bleed, and then buy a 20-25mil sp character of your liking (2-4bil depending on skills). That will save you about 2 years of training, and get you a character capable of doing most things in the game.
jk scowling Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:45:00 - [136] Originally by: Slade Trillgon Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 10/02/2010 14:42:39 The only thing that the OP spurned in my head was the concept of play time equaling more SP's. CCP has always said they want to get players to log on and play andnot just switch skills. The suggestion that popped into my head would probably cause more lag and I do not think I really would support the idea, but something like a 10% (just some random # I pulled form the air ) increase in skill training speed while you are logged on may help noobs out a little and give older players more incentive to log on and play? As stated before this may equal certain players just logging on all of their alts just to get the bonus without actually playing, thus hogging resources and advancing faster with little consequence. I said I doubt I would support it, but I thought it sounded good in my head even with the apparent flaws. / puts on his flame suit Slade Again, will mean people just leave themselves logged in whenever possible. Extra server load, and everyone in your corp/alliance chat being afk at work or whatever.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:51:00 - [137] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester Sigh first of all i suggested a augmentation to the current system not a replacement. And second i never said the game sucked or anything else that person had to say. So you do something he does not, and he does something you do not. So what? The commonalities that Malc points out are still there: neither you nor him have grasped how SP works in this game, and perceive them as something they're not. From this misconception, both of you draw false conclusions and perceive problems that don't exist. Both of you glorify grinding and both of you confuse accumulation of SP with progression and with the point of playing the actual game. Quote: I also argued some of the people do not want to work for their gains IE: same amount of sp gains no matter if you play 5 mins or 5 hours. …just like he does. Quote: people suggesting that buying isk and characters isn't cheating and is a good solution to my post. A good solution to your particular problem is to understand the game and why your complaint is a) irrelevant, because the problem you perceive doesn't exist, and b) actively bad for the game, since it draws attention away from the actual game and onto a meta-game mechanic. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:52:00 - [138] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester If someone puts the damn time into it they deserve a greater out come and if you think otherwise im pretty sure you think this way in real life hence the reason you're at a dead end job and can't afford to put 40 + hours ito recreation like i can. I work for what i have and damn well deserve greater rewards for putting in greater amount of effort and time. Quite clearly indicates a troll, IMHO. And even if it is really "40 + hours ito recreation like i can"... putting that hours into trolling... pathetic.
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:53:00 - [139] Originally by: jk scowling Again, will mean people just leave themselves logged in whenever possible. Extra server load, and everyone in your corp/alliance chat being afk at work or whatever. Which I said in my post So I guess it was already mentioned in the thread May be require that there is actual interaction between the player and the computer. Pilots are already logged on afk while at work in my experience. Like there has to be some docking, warping, undocking, target locking, etc. The issue this would raise would be an increase in macros. So again I bork my own suggestion. Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
Major Trant 287 Marine Regiment	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:54:00 - [140] Lets look at this argument from a different perspective and you will see why the OP's suggestion will never come to pass. The CCP perspective. Money. Profit = Income - expenditure. CCP do not want players that play 23/7 and hog system resources. The ideal player to them, pays for multiple accounts and rarely goes on them. The current system of gaining SP without logging on and only allowing one character per account to train SP, is the perfect marketing tool to encourage maximum income (accounts) with minimal expenses (logged on users). It even encourages players just to set up accounts that they never intend to play, just skill up then sell. Why do you think CCP care so much about RMT and macro users? It is not because it is unfair on other players, it is because those accounts generate a lot bigger load on the system and cost CCP money to cater for them.
Duncan MacPherson Minmatar Clan MacPherson	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:56:00 - [141] My character was made in 2005. I have an alt that is 6 months old. My alt can fly a Raven and shield tank better than this character that is 5 years old. To the OP - You argument is old and tired and false. Nice troll though.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 14:57:00 - [142] my main point is no matter what your doing be it in game or irl the person who puts more time and more effort into something should be given greater rewards in every aspect. People say you get more skill and more ISK by playing more while this is true in some respect i am sure it's not true it all cases. I do not see it unfit to reward a more active player with something extra considering the less active player can legally buy isk from ccp. Changing the system to have more of a sp gain bonus to active players does not change it to a grind game, you will gain you sp while offline at the current rate but at least the more active players are better rewarded for playing their accounts. So please explain how making this type of change will turn this into grind fest? If anything you would most likely see more active people on line and also see an increase of how long accounts stay active. And you make accusations about me feeling entitled because i got more play time that is no different to you feeling entitled to always stay on top with your sp just because you started the game before i did.
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:06:00 - [143] Originally by: Slade Trillgon Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 10/02/2010 14:42:39 The only thing that the OP spurned in my head was the concept of play time equaling more SP's. CCP has always said they want to get players to log on and play andnot just switch skills. The suggestion that popped into my head would probably cause more lag and I do not think I really would support the idea, but something like a 10% (just some random # I pulled form the air ) increase in skill training speed while you are logged on may help noobs out a little and give older players more incentive to log on and play? As stated before this may equal certain players just logging on all of their alts just to get the bonus without actually playing, thus hogging resources and advancing faster with little consequence. I said I doubt I would support it, but I thought it sounded good in my head even with the apparent flaws. / puts on his flame suit Slade That's what is intended and a simple fix is implement a afk timer after x amount of time your logged off (this should be put in place anyways) And unless CCP doesn't have the right system in place most ever other MMO's are able to and do actively scan out and ban botters / macros without a lot of man hours in place.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:07:00 - [144] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester my main point is no matter what your doing be it in game or irl the person who puts more time and more effort into something should be given greater rewards in every aspect. Again: why? Again: this is already the case in most instances. Quote: People say you get more skill and more ISK by playing more while this is true in some respect i am sure it's not true it all cases. Again: such as? Quote: I do not see it unfit to reward a more active player with something extra Again: this is already the case. Quote: Changing the system to have more of a sp gain bonus to active players does not change it to a grind game Again: why do you feel the need to grind SP? Quote: you will gain you sp while offline at the current rate but at least the more active players are better rewarded for playing their accounts. Why should they be – they're already being rewarded, so why do you want to add more SP to the mix? Quote: And you make accusations about me feeling entitled because i got more play time that is no different to you feeling entitled to always stay on top with your sp just because you started the game before i did. …and no different than feeling entitled to SP just because you have more time to spare. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:11:00 - [145] You ask to debate and all you can do is ask such as 5 times? And fail to give any real reasons or answers to refute what i said
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:14:00 - [146] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester You ask to debate and all you can do is ask such as 5 times? I have to keep asking it since you keep refusing to answer. Quote: And fail to give any real reasons or answers to refute what i said What you've said has been refuted since page one, with plenty of reasoning behind it. Yet you refuse to discuss those answers and instead keep repeating the same points over and over again, hoping that someone will mistake repetition for argumentation. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Chesterr theMolester	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:21:00 - [147] I have made my argument many times within this post And as of yet you have failed to tell me how adding a 10% sp bonus to active players while keeping the same offline skill training will make it a grind fest. And you ask why i feel the need to have more sp i say why not If skill points are not that important to you then why is it such a big deal if i gain them 10% faster then you by being more active?
Mari Seles	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:28:00 - [148] Originally by: Chesterr theMolester my main point is no matter what your doing be it in game or irl the person who puts more time and more effort into something should be given greater rewards in every aspect. Funny I would give the guy who does the same thing, in less time and with less effort, more money than the guy who does it in twice the time and working his ass off.
Kijo Rikki Caldari Swarm of Angry Bees	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:28:00 - [149] Specializing SP is more important than raw SP. Had I known this instead of trying to get into battleships as soon as possible I would have focused on smaller ships and support skills. I have almost 8mil SP now and had I not wasted time training all over the place I could be flying every single tech 2 cruiser and could fit all tech 2 as well. As it stands now I'm still waiting on a few support skills to be able to accomplish that, in the meantime I can fly alot of Caldari ships, just not well. Also SP isnt worth jack if you don't have friends, this is not a solo friendly game. It can be done, but depending on where you are you'll wind up getting blobbed more often than not. Furthermore, SP isnt worth jack if you're flying a cormorant and you think you have a shot at downing a Dramiel. Or if the sight of a broadsword waiting on the other side of a gate doesnt immediately concern you. >.> Grinding in this game seems to be more focused on asset acquisition than character development. Your time spent in game is rewarded by wealth (hopefully) Finally, while I like your idea, I am happy with the status quo even being on the low end of the totem pole. It works this way in real life, thats why we all hate competing for open positions against employees with senority.
Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.10 15:29:00 - [150] If extra SP is the only benefit you see to spending more hours logged in to the game then you're missing out on a lot of what EVE has to offer. You said yourself that you've been involved in some wars with other corps, the experience in pvp is one thing you've gained along with building up solidarity with corp mates (one would hope). Those that run missions gain ISK, LPs and standing, those that explore wormholes can have significant gains from what they find there. Plus you build up relationships with other players, which can prove invaluable, more so than just an extra bunch of SPs. This is an MMO after all and EVE thrives on the complex web of relationships between its players. All this is made much easier because we don't have to waste our precious game time grinding for SPs like some pig snuffling for truffles like a lot of other games. I've abandoned games because they had the skill grind, the lack of such is what drew me to EVE.

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