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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
Comrade Sesk
Kitsune Holdings Inc.
3
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Posted - 2012.06.30 05:51:00 -
[331] - Quote
I'm not happy CCP is not punishing exploiters. |
Cybarite
YARRRDIES Inc.
2
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Posted - 2012.06.30 07:55:00 -
[332] - Quote
oh god, grey area people, the plain fact is they don't want to discourage people from pushing the limits because the things that come of it are their best marketing tools.
Could we please just beat on the devs a little for implementing an open ended system with market manipulation vulnerabilities? I mean come on, this was inevitable as soon as they went live with such a half baked feature. |
Cerebral Wolf
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
15
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Posted - 2012.06.30 10:37:00 -
[333] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:
I at least hope the other members of the 5 are going to shank the snitch.
There was no single snitch, The whole thing was planned to be shown to CCP all along, they never planned to continue to use it after pointing it out to CCP and after CCP had addressed it. |
Cerebral Wolf
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
15
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Posted - 2012.06.30 10:43:00 -
[334] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Well its not like burn jita, hulkageddon, OTEC and the ice interdiction from last year are all interconnected somehow. What kind of crazy conspiracist would believe THAT?
If only i could use all the info we have to actually profit on this like you guys i'd be happy. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1969
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Posted - 2012.06.30 10:50:00 -
[335] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Well Lord Zim was right, goons don't get banned for this kind of thing.
The post on the Dev blog "I wrote a blog on "Responsible Disclosures" a year or so ago. In that blog I mention that telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system."
It shows as such a good warning "Do what ever you want and we will just roll everything back to pretend it didn't happen." Yeah Good deterant that one.
I at least hope the other members of the 5 are going to shank the snitch.
hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps
I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
64
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Posted - 2012.06.30 12:24:00 -
[336] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: To clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it. Then don't release stupid expansions that weren't tested properly, like very bad UI and FW exploits. Do more testing and ask players to test stuff out first and tell their opinion about it, not just release expansion that is crap. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1969
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Posted - 2012.06.30 13:33:00 -
[337] - Quote
Spc One wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: To clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it. Then don't release stupid expansions that weren't tested properly, like very bad UI and FW exploits. Do more testing and ask players to test stuff out first and tell their opinion about it, not just release expansion that is crap.
This valuable feedback will be noted. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
452
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Posted - 2012.06.30 13:40:00 -
[338] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Spc One wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: To clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it. Then don't release stupid expansions that weren't tested properly, like very bad UI and FW exploits. Do more testing and ask players to test stuff out first and tell their opinion about it, not just release expansion that is crap. This valuable feedback will be noted.
lmao!!!! i love ccp...
PLEX FOR PIZZA! -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
452
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Posted - 2012.06.30 13:42:00 -
[339] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Well Lord Zim was right, goons don't get banned for this kind of thing.
The post on the Dev blog "I wrote a blog on "Responsible Disclosures" a year or so ago. In that blog I mention that telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system."
It shows as such a good warning "Do what ever you want and we will just roll everything back to pretend it didn't happen." Yeah Good deterant that one.
I at least hope the other members of the 5 are going to shank the snitch. hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game
yeah but you cant ban this guy!
PLEX FOR PIZZA! -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Hoarr
RPS holdings
29
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Posted - 2012.06.30 14:29:00 -
[340] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Spc One wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: To clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it. Then don't release stupid expansions that weren't tested properly, like very bad UI and FW exploits. Do more testing and ask players to test stuff out first and tell their opinion about it, not just release expansion that is crap. This valuable feedback will be noted.
Hahahahaha. Exasperated Sreegs best Sreegs |
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
502
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Posted - 2012.06.30 18:26:00 -
[341] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.
I missed this the first time through.
The reason this was so grey to us it, the last time this very scenerio happened, for months on end, with CCP's full knowlege, you allowed all the profits to stand. Insurance fraud did exactly this, except worse as it printed ISK itself, not LP. You broke your spacelamp and got back more ISK than you paid. People blew up thousands of ships each and raked in fortunes. To us, this was no different. I know you guys don't agree, but that is where we are coming from. There was precedent. |
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance United Outworlders
25
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Posted - 2012.06.30 19:23:00 -
[342] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. I missed this the first time through. The reason this was so grey to us it, the last time this very scenerio happened, for months on end, with CCP's full knowlege, you allowed all the profits to stand. Insurance fraud did exactly this, except worse as it printed ISK itself, not LP. You broke your spacelamp and got back more ISK than you paid. People blew up thousands of ships each and raked in fortunes. To us, this was no different. I know you guys don't agree, but that is where we are coming from. There was precedent.
Here are some key differences I see: your plan was implemented at full strength shortly after a new mechanic change (as opposed to an old mechanic slowly becoming a problem), was a lot more sophisticated, required a great deal more high level manipulation on several fronts, was not common knowledge, and only a few players had an opportunity to profit from it. In terms of 'printing isk' from nowhere, I agree the insurance fraud was way worse.
* bolded is easiest to 'correct' via punishments, but maybe w/ PLEX you'll end up liking said punishments. |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
0
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Posted - 2012.06.30 19:44:00 -
[343] - Quote
I'm new to this game but i have a fair grasp of economics.
But all i see here is goons accumulating much of the ingame currency, having it seized before being able to use it (by reporting it) and therefore alleviating a lot of the natural inflation that comes with the age of the game.
So really didnt the goons just do the whole game a great service? |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
545
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Posted - 2012.06.30 20:27:00 -
[344] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:I'm new to this game but i have a fair grasp of economics.
But all i see here is goons accumulating much of the ingame currency, having it seized before being able to use it (by reporting it) and therefore alleviating a lot of the natural inflation that comes with the age of the game.
So really didnt the goons just do the whole game a great service? Inflation would come from new currency being injected into the game, which never happened during this whole thing - quite the opposite, since redeeming LP costs isk. We'd already taken large amounts of isk out of circulation and would have taken something like 2T more between Aryth & I alone had we kept it.
Pretty small pennies for countering inflation when new isk injected into the game is grossing on the order of 40-50T monthly though (note that that's just the faucets, I don't have as good a handle on the sinks) I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance United Outworlders
25
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Posted - 2012.06.30 20:38:00 -
[345] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:I'm new to this game but i have a fair grasp of economics.
But all i see here is goons accumulating much of the ingame currency, having it seized before being able to use it (by reporting it) and therefore alleviating a lot of the natural inflation that comes with the age of the game.
So really didnt the goons just do the whole game a great service? Inflation would come from new currency being injected into the game, which never happened during this whole thing - quite the opposite, since redeeming LP costs isk. We'd already taken large amounts of isk out of circulation and would have taken something like 2T more between Aryth & I alone had we kept it. Pretty small pennies for countering inflation when new isk injected into the game is grossing on the order of 40-50T monthly though (note that that's just the faucets, I don't have as good a handle on the sinks)
You could change all the isk sinks to 0.0 and probably not increase the amount of net isk injection by more than 20%. I really wonder what is holding back hyper inflation instead of the relatively mild inflation we have now. Eve simple isn't expanding its player base and net ingame assets by a rate necessary to keep up with all the new isk.
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
545
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Posted - 2012.06.30 21:21:00 -
[346] - Quote
Part of it, I think, is that the only thing that necessarily scales in cost with inflation is gametime in the form of plexes. Raw materials themselves tend to be driven by straight up supply & demand, and manufactured goods have their prices track raw materials relatively closely thanks to race to the bottom effects - anyone can build anything, provided they have the proper skills, so the price is dictated by those who will build for the lowest profits. Inflation, therefore, never really enters the equation. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
0
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Posted - 2012.06.30 21:40:00 -
[347] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:I'm new to this game but i have a fair grasp of economics.
But all i see here is goons accumulating much of the ingame currency, having it seized before being able to use it (by reporting it) and therefore alleviating a lot of the natural inflation that comes with the age of the game.
So really didnt the goons just do the whole game a great service? Inflation would come from new currency being injected into the game, which never happened during this whole thing - quite the opposite, since redeeming LP costs isk. We'd already taken large amounts of isk out of circulation and would have taken something like 2T more between Aryth & I alone had we kept it. Pretty small pennies for countering inflation when new isk injected into the game is grossing on the order of 40-50T monthly though (note that that's just the faucets, I don't have as good a handle on the sinks)
You misunderstood me.
Inflation is a natural part of any mmo, more people join more people make money, smalle exploits here and there that aren't caught in time ETC.
If i understand correctly: what the goons did with this is siphon off HUGE amounts of existing ISK from players (ISK did not come from nowhere) and it is now locked up and the LP is also frozen/removed.
But if what you say is correct that 40-50T ISK is created every month, I guess it didn't have that much of an effect. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
145
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Posted - 2012.06.30 22:10:00 -
[348] - Quote
Im just going to leave this here,
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1273664#post1273664
Can i get my free plex now?
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Ships to goo calc - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107898 |
Helena Russell Makanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
70
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Posted - 2012.07.01 02:04:00 -
[349] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps
I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game
So goons take advantage of an exploit, profit from it, then their accounts are left in good standing and even plex awarded, because they at some point sent that information to ccp.
I may be wrong, but didn't you ban the guy (non-goon) who did the same thing when he exposed an exploit with the first opening of these new forums - where no one paid attention to his warnings until he exploited it as proof? I can't remember if it was a lifetime ban, but I know he was banned, and without making a cent.
How is this case so very different? |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute
56
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Posted - 2012.07.01 02:18:00 -
[350] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Other posts bring up a intersting point though. If in the future, after the system is fixed/revamped whatever. If this becomes slightly possible again but not to the degree shown here, would that be legal? I am not trying to words lawyer, just trying to see where the boundary is.
Once something is reported, and time gone by to remediate, does anything after that pass muster?
You could just, ya know, play the game the way it was intended to be played. The fact that boundaries can even be a topic is rather sad. |
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KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.07.01 03:39:00 -
[351] - Quote
Two weeks to report the exploit. The only reason they fessed up is because CCP knew something was going on and changed things on them mid-stream. The monetary penalty is a slap on the hand. What joke. At a minimum a 30 day ban should have been handed out.
That Goons continue to get preferential treatment is obvious.
Weak, CCP. Weak. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
190
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Posted - 2012.07.01 03:44:00 -
[352] - Quote
Chicken Pizza wrote:Aryth wrote:Other posts bring up a intersting point though. If in the future, after the system is fixed/revamped whatever. If this becomes slightly possible again but not to the degree shown here, would that be legal? I am not trying to words lawyer, just trying to see where the boundary is.
Once something is reported, and time gone by to remediate, does anything after that pass muster? You could just, ya know, play the game the way it was intended to be played. The fact that boundaries can even be a topic is rather sad.
Gonna quit using Local as an Intel tool?
Gonna quit Jetcan mining?
CCP didn't intend for either of those when they introduced the mechanics, they're something that emerged from the game mechanics when people played with them. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
EvEa Deva
State War Academy Caldari State
50
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Posted - 2012.07.01 04:00:00 -
[353] - Quote
posting in a goon/dev pet thread they get along so well |
Russell Casey
Goldbug Inc.
169
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Posted - 2012.07.01 04:30:00 -
[354] - Quote
Still can't believe they introduced a system that rewarded you for killing other players in a game that's 70% alts. |
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
52
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Posted - 2012.07.01 04:49:00 -
[355] - Quote
Spc One wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: To clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it. Then don't release stupid expansions that weren't tested properly, like very bad UI and FW exploits. Do more testing and ask players to test stuff out first and tell their opinion about it, not just release expansion that is crap.
Gosh, maybe you should be a dev. I bet you would have every problem in the game fixed in two weeks flat. A good predator knows how to live in balance with his prey, lest he follow them into oblivion. |
Shameless Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
86
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Posted - 2012.07.01 07:09:00 -
[356] - Quote
This has been 18 pages of pure entertainment. I had to refill my popcorn bowl twice. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
192
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Posted - 2012.07.01 07:23:00 -
[357] - Quote
Russell Casey wrote:Still can't believe they introduced a system that rewarded you for killing other players in a game that's 70% alts.
But they weren't expecting collusion between those alts. I mean, who would? -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
214
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Posted - 2012.07.01 13:26:00 -
[358] - Quote
Quote:I wrote a blog on "Responsible Disclosures" a year or so ago. In that blog I mention that telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system. I can understand a desire to test the limits but we don't believe two weeks of testing a bug or exploit should net a tremendous benefit in lieu of reporting it in the first place, and that is another reason why the LP activity will be reversed back to zero. And if it hadn't been members of a cash rich and PR Golden Goose Null Monkey Herd?
Exploiting the snot out of something for TWO weeks and only officially reporting it when the noose tightens as bughunters/devs close in on the anomaly should at the very least be prolonged temporary bans as well as confiscation of all ill-gotten goods and an investigation into the effects of those five holier-than-though exploiters (LOL!) LP dumps into the FW sovereignty mechanic.
What is the contact details to internal affairs again .. I'd like to report the matter of favouritism from the GM employees towards the population of just one of the corners of the Glorious Sandbox at the expense of another. While null may or may not be the de facto "end game" (even though you deny the existence of such), crapping on all the rest of the areas of Eve (except worms) by doing diddly makes me think that CCP has internally decided to prop up null when/where possible regardless .. since that is more than likely the case, how about putting everything on hold and sorting out the atrocious **** called Null so that everyone can get to try out the non-existent end game of Eve without having to submit to hourly cavity searches and suffering from brain oozing out of ones ears from boredom (looking at you EHP grinds!).
Bad GMs. Bad! |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
977
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Posted - 2012.07.01 22:31:00 -
[359] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Exploiting the snot out of something for TWO weeks and only officially reporting it when the noose tightens as bughunters/devs close in on the anomaly should at the very least be prolonged temporary bans as well as confiscation of all ill-gotten goods and an investigation into the effects of those five holier-than-though exploiters (LOL!) LP dumps into the FW sovereignty mechanic.
You mad Bro?? You sound like you could be mad. |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
96
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Posted - 2012.07.01 23:11:00 -
[360] - Quote
Ok, some folks saw an exploitable condition about to be released, exploited for quite some time after release, manipulated an entire feature (FW), and as far as I can tell bragged about crashing the market for certain items.
CCP agrees that this is not the proper way of doing so, but the offending accounts will remain in good (not neutral) standing (this leads people to believe that no punishment was given). If writing about the proper way to report exploits was not effective to prevent this exploit from being properly reported, what makes you think people will not have fun like this again if all you did in this case was basicly not much apart from rewarding undesired behaviour and writing another time that this is not the way to do this? "We will watch what they do, not what they say." goes for us players as well, you know? I'm not saying that the exploiters should be punished, but rewarding them, publicly, seems to me to be a bit...odd.
CCP Sreegs wrote:[hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps
I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game I'm pretty sure line 1 is proven wrong by line 2, among other things. Join in game channel/mailing list: New Eden Racing Sub-warp racing event thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107164 |
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