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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
Xaarous
Fleetworks Soldiers Of New Eve
1
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Posted - 2012.06.28 21:45:00 -
[211] - Quote
To me it's pretty easy to test whether something you want to try would be an exploit or not: Ask yourself, who has to "fall for" my plan in order for it to work? (By "work", I mean "generate income with essentially zero risk")
1. If it's other players, congrats you're doing market manipulation or a scam. These are both allowed and the former in particular is a cornerstone of sandbox gameplay. 2. If it's CCP, you're cheating. 3. If it's somehow "no-one", it might be cheating but might be something new.
Examples: 1. Hulkageddon and isotope supply interdiction 2. LP spiral due to item 'value' formula manipulation 3. Jet can mining (allowed mining yield per player per unit time to go higher than originally anticipated, but ultimately deemed allowed and also 'neat')
The insurance payout scheme IMHO is #2, even though it was never deemed as such.
Is there an example of #2 that's currently deemed legal? I'd love to shoot some holes in my own theory. Are there other examples that fit #3? |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
8
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Posted - 2012.06.28 21:46:00 -
[212] - Quote
apparently not |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
8
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Posted - 2012.06.28 21:49:00 -
[213] - Quote
corestwo wrote: 4000 players are a majority out of a few hundred thousand.
See I can do it too |
Xutech
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
186
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Posted - 2012.06.28 21:58:00 -
[214] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Xutech wrote:I wonder whether CCP Sreeg's earlier belligerent, confused and contrary posts in the original thread were also guided by a team of CCP economists and security experts.
Certainly his tone has changed today but he is still obviously struggling to digest the more difficult theoretical questions this wholly unsatisfactory blog has given.
It's been made clear that we must accept this judgement without access to any appropriate information and we cannot even get a solid definition of how we might avoid this in the future. Being told not to make too much isk or apply too complex a theory to your financial schemes is....pathetic. Hi. I'm sorry if "Blowing your ship up over and over again with various items in the hold to manufacture a particular currency from thin air" isn't clear enough for you but I'm afraid it's a bit difficult to be more clear or direct.
I feel better now you've made that humble confession. We have common ground but you can be very difficult to get along with. |
Madner Kami
Durendal Ascending Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
38
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Posted - 2012.06.28 22:27:00 -
[215] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote::Fancygraph: All the other factions are kinda even keep and Minmitar was like OH HI!
So, not wanting to rain on your :Exploit-fixed-parade: but how comes nobody noticed that, until those 5 players spilled the beans to you?
P.S.: Page 11 already? Damn, I was afk for too long. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
474
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Posted - 2012.06.28 22:31:00 -
[216] - Quote
Madner Kami wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote::Fancygraph: All the other factions are kinda even keep and Minmitar was like OH HI! So, not wanting to rain on your :Exploit-fixed-parade: but how comes nobody noticed that, until those 5 players spilled the beans to you? P.S.: Page 11 already? Damn, I was afk for too long.
They did see it elsewhere I guess. The connection just hadn't been made yet. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
57
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Posted - 2012.06.28 22:31:00 -
[217] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Rented wrote:It pains me to see the degree of stupidity displayed by those apparently unable to see how this was an obvious exploit, or perhaps they just can't understand what was happening.
However, this appears to have been handled perfectly to me and even the 5 people directly involved are content with it. Though it would've been more amusing (for everyone else anyways) if even more assets than were profited through this exploitation remained seized... but that's just because they're goons.
Nor do I really understand people calling for bans when CCP is clearly capable of reversing the gains obtained through this fairly benign exploit. At least you're honest and frank that your motivating desire to see us get ****ed is because we're goons. More than many other posters in this thread can say To draw a comparison (at least for any American players), many posters in this thread want to see "justice done" in the same way that Darrell Issa wants to see "justice done" for Fast & Furious
I really, really want to continue this line of discussion. Really, really do. It's a fun discussion to have, and I had something witty all typed up. But I remembered that CCP has eaten some crow to make improvements, and we should do the same.
So this isn't the place. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
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Posted - 2012.06.28 22:33:00 -
[218] - Quote
Madner Kami wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote::Fancygraph: All the other factions are kinda even keep and Minmitar was like OH HI! So, not wanting to rain on your :Exploit-fixed-parade: but how comes nobody noticed that, until those 5 players spilled the beans to you? P.S.: Page 11 already? Damn, I was afk for too long.
CCP GingerDude wrote:Kismeteer wrote:What sort of metrics does CCP watch for to catch these kinds of exploits? And what sort of systems can be put in place to understand why LP is coming from nothing, similar to how tech was coming from nothing under the previous silo duplication exploit? This did also show up as a statistical anomaly in our player event metrics although it took a while for it to properly register. I.e. we noticed and would've taken action regardless of snitching.
So yeah. They'd noticed, they just didn't quite get all of the implications of it right off the bat. Or something. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
57
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Posted - 2012.06.28 22:33:00 -
[219] - Quote
Xaarous wrote:To me it's pretty easy to test whether something you want to try would be an exploit or not: Ask yourself, who has to "fall for" my plan in order for it to work? (By "work", I mean "generate income with essentially zero risk")
1. If it's other players, congrats you're doing market manipulation or a scam. These are both allowed and the former in particular is a cornerstone of sandbox gameplay. 2. If it's CCP, you're cheating. 3. If it's somehow "no-one", it might be cheating but might be something new.
Examples: 1. Hulkageddon and isotope supply interdiction 2. LP spiral due to item 'value' formula manipulation 3. Jet can mining (allowed mining yield per player per unit time to go higher than originally anticipated, but ultimately deemed allowed and also 'neat')
The insurance payout scheme IMHO is #2, even though it was never deemed as such.
Is there an example of #2 that's currently deemed legal? I'd love to shoot some holes in my own theory. Are there other examples that fit #3?
When it's profitable, Insurance fraud is still #2, and has never been deemed cheating or illegal. It's just been made so that it's much harder to come to situations where it's profitable. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
692
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Posted - 2012.06.28 22:38:00 -
[220] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Hi. I'm sorry if "Blowing your ship up over and over again with various items in the hold to manufacture a particular currency from thin air" isn't clear enough for you but I'm afraid it's a bit difficult to be more clear or direct. It's funny that there exists a game mechanic that causes a certain currency to be manufactured from thin air whenever a ship is blown up over with various items in its hold, but if you actually blow up a ship over and over again with various items in its hold in order to create a certain currency from thin air you get all your assets seized. |
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Better Than You
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
16
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Posted - 2012.06.28 22:41:00 -
[221] - Quote
Goons exploiting non-shocker. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3772
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Posted - 2012.06.28 22:43:00 -
[222] - Quote
I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem. |
Spaja Saist
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.06.28 22:47:00 -
[223] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Atomic Option wrote:I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool. PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one.
This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.
CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way. |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
57
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Posted - 2012.06.28 22:53:00 -
[224] - Quote
Spaja Saist wrote: This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.
CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.
did you miss the part where we had our LP and assets (including a goodly portion of non-involved assets) seized pending investigation
because that was a thing that did and is still happening
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
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Posted - 2012.06.28 22:54:00 -
[225] - Quote
But but querns one of us will get two or three plexes out of the deal! I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
57
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Posted - 2012.06.28 22:57:00 -
[226] - Quote
corestwo wrote:But but querns one of us will get two or three plexes out of the deal! I guess 2b isk is a lot to some people? :iiam: |
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
12
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Posted - 2012.06.28 22:58:00 -
[227] - Quote
Querns wrote:Spaja Saist wrote: This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.
CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.
did you miss the part where we had our LP and assets (including a goodly portion of non-involved assets) seized pending investigation because that was a thing that did and is still happening
Clearly CCP hires exclusively from Goons and there's some extremely vague grand conspiracy which may involve aliens, butterscotch, a toaster, at least 17 deimos', and masking tape. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3773
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Posted - 2012.06.28 22:59:00 -
[228] - Quote
While I see the rationale in simply banning LP farming - it is too difficult to ram a solution through quickly and not really your problem - it offends my EVE sensibilities to have a system that I am forbidden from using for something other than its intended purpose. I would hope that once the team has had a chance to look at this again and actually fix it, the ban on farming will be removed. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
57
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:00:00 -
[229] - Quote
Rented wrote:Querns wrote:Spaja Saist wrote: This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.
CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.
did you miss the part where we had our LP and assets (including a goodly portion of non-involved assets) seized pending investigation because that was a thing that did and is still happening Clearly CCP hires exclusively from Goons and there's some extremely vague grand conspiracy which may involve aliens, butterscotch, a toaster, at least 17 deimos', and masking tape.
Don't forget the 4 cords of prime Oak. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1931
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:11:00 -
[230] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem.
By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks". "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1933
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:12:00 -
[231] - Quote
Spaja Saist wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Atomic Option wrote:I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool. PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one. This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned. CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.
We're rewarding the person who brought us the problem. Just like any other time someone brings us problems of this nature as per the program linked in the dev blog. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1933
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:13:00 -
[232] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:While I see the rationale in simply banning LP farming - it is too difficult to ram a solution through quickly and not really your problem - it offends my EVE sensibilities to have a system that I am forbidden from using for something other than its intended purpose. I would hope that once the team has had a chance to look at this again and actually fix it, the ban on farming will be removed.
We would hope so too.
:edit: to clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
57
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:15:00 -
[233] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Weaselior wrote:I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem. By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks". wait really
is the y-axis on the graph in the devblog logarithmic or something |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1933
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:19:00 -
[234] - Quote
Querns wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Weaselior wrote:I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem. By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks". wait really is the y-axis on the graph in the devblog logarithmic or something
That graph was generated as part of the investigation. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
57
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:21:00 -
[235] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Querns wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Weaselior wrote:I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem. By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks". wait really is the y-axis on the graph in the devblog logarithmic or something That graph was generated as part of the investigation.
Wait, you don't have a matrix style wall of TVs showing Graphs of every possible bit of Economic activity in EvE?
Well, why not? -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Madner Kami
Durendal Ascending Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
38
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:29:00 -
[236] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Wait, you don't have a matrix style wall of TVs showing Graphs of every possible bit of Economic activity in EvE? Well, why not?
Well one might actually find this snarky comment funny, until you realize that the entire LP-system change which allowed this abuse in the first place, was one of the selling points of the recent expansion. I don't expect CCP to watch each and every little detail with graphs and logs and whatnot, but I kinda expect them to have an eye on the things they just released. |
Rhys Thoth
Endland
1
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:33:00 -
[237] - Quote
This resolution seems pretty fair, though as a trader I am somewhat concerned about the vagueness surrounding the market manipulation. As best as I can tell there were three issues:
1) FW LP gains for kills 2) Market price manipulation 3) Using an 'x day' rolling average to calculate item value
1 needs some tweaking. 2 has been legit gameplay since I first logged in.
3 is where it goes full ******. The algorithm for determining average price needs to be resistant to this type of tampering. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:34:00 -
[238] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Querns wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Weaselior wrote:I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem. By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks". wait really is the y-axis on the graph in the devblog logarithmic or something That graph was generated as part of the investigation. Wait, you don't have a matrix style wall of TVs showing Graphs of every possible bit of Economic activity in EvE? Well, why not?
I can't speak for CCP, but that is what, but that's what the interior of the Goonwaffe Economic Cabal looks like. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Munch Munch
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:34:00 -
[239] - Quote
So, to sum up the facts again quick: - They deliberately broke the rules by looking for holes in the mechanics and exploiting whatever they find (they admitted it) - Their exploits had huge impacts on the market and FW, which caused damage to thousands of other players - They did not go public with it because of good will, but only to protect themselves, brag about how "awesome" they are, and to make CCP look like fools
And what does CCP do? Instead of punishing them, YOU ARE DUMB ENOUGH TO REWARD THEM WITH IMMUNITY AND A FREE PLEX???
As if they cared about the rollback of the goods they made with those exploits. They had the time of their life, and you probably won't be able to delete all their gains anyway because they are spread all over the universe and to differents accounts and alts by now. If you permabanned them... perhaps this would have set a sign and they or others would not be trying to exploit in the future anymore. But by REWARDING them for such impudence, you will not prevent anyone from attempting to exploit... In fact all CCP did (or failed to do) in this case only encourages other players to exploit, and the persons that did it in this case will probably do it again themselves, but the next time they will not go public with it. And you probably will not notice it anyway, seeing how you failed to notice the extreme impacts on the market and FW, despite the fact that you should have been monitoring those things closely after implementing such extreme changes (yay for FW store prices varying between 25% and 400%).
Good to know that "the exploiter" seems to be a new EVE profession that is officially supported now. If CCP is this dumb, I will make sure to be looking for exploits too from now on. |
Spaja Saist
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:43:00 -
[240] - Quote
Querns wrote:Spaja Saist wrote: This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.
CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.
did you miss the part where we had our LP and assets (including a goodly portion of non-involved assets) seized pending investigation because that was a thing that did and is still happening
And you will get everything back that was not generated using an exploit as Sreegs said. It doesn't change the fact that they are ignoring their own TOS to not ban you. Exploiting a game mechanic is a bannable offense. Then add the fact that Goons gloated about it and gave CCP a black eye.
I personally could give two ***** about Goons. Hell I used to root for you when you were taking down BOB. But lately it seems all you guys care about is doing as much financial damage to CCP and their game as possible. |
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