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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:29:00 -
[181] - Quote
Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes Believe me when I say that there are more than few goons who have known Sreegs' tender touch (along with many other pilots from many other corps and alliances, nullsec & otherwise, of course), and they definitely would not say that they got off lightly.
Different scenarios, but deciding that sreegs goes lightly on goons because of this one case is really quite laughable. . |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:30:00 -
[182] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Aryth wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo.
Fair enough. I hope you're having a good long conversation about how to fix Forex markets to keep them from being manipulated. It would be spectacular to see CCP be the first Gaming company win the Nobel Prize for Economics. I pitched a possible solution. We spent days theorycrafting a fix that preserves the system without making it gameable to a degree you are profiting on the conversion. You might still profit on the market manip, but not the conversion itself. This might be an acceptable solution to CCP, who knows. I hope they don't gut it though. This sounds really interesting. Implemented or not, I hope that you publish your fix. And I think limiting the profit to the market manip is the best CCP can hope for with Forex.
I think it's something we should all hope for. Introducing an entirely new game mechanic that would let you combine manip+forex is quite interesting. I hope they don't completely kill it off. |
Zastrow
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:32:00 -
[183] - Quote
WHO'S READY FOR SOME EMERGENT GAMEPLAY???
http://i.imgur.com/vCVlM.jpg |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3772
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:33:00 -
[184] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: I think I explained in terms of exploitation where the issue was (BLOWING UP SHIPS TO MAKE MAGIC STUFF APPEAR) and I'm not really going to get involved in a philosophical debate about what "value" means. I'm a security guy not the philosophy or economics guy. I'm sure they'd love to have such a discourse. :)
Make them come have this discussion tia |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
53
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Posted - 2012.06.28 20:38:00 -
[185] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes Hi Capsuleer Kern Hotha, you may have missed the bit where we pointed out that these are group decisions. I'm pleased you feel it necessary to question my integrity but unfortunately for you in this case your conspiratorial scenario has no grounding in reality.
It's really too bad that this event came to light in the middle of Reynolds having a big coupon drive. But sometimes the timing of these things can't be helped. [sigh]
Anyway, I think that it's clear that we all love conspiracy theories, and the less grounded they are in reality, the better. In this case we have two wonderful ones; the Sreegs is a Goon protecting the Goons, and the Sreegs is a meanie who hates sandboxes.
TBH, I was halfway into the second camp before the devblog came out, and now your actions place you right in the middle. If you were protecting the Goons, you'd have let it stand and simply had the problem fixed. Were you being a big meanie, you would have banned them or at leas not refunded the initial investment.
I think a case could be (and has been, ad nauseam) made for any of these actions, and I think that the decision you (the team you represent) reached is, on reflection, probably the healthiest for the game*.
It's like the old saying about striking a deal. The best deals are struck where nobody's happy.
*Even though it's not totally consistent with previous decisions in similar cases. "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
(Oh, and Aryth and friends, next time keep these types of proceeds as separate from your other stuff as possible. It's probably polite to make investigations as easy as possible on Sreegs. ) -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
7
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Posted - 2012.06.28 20:38:00 -
[186] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes Hi Capsuleer Kern Hotha, you may have missed the bit where we pointed out that these are group decisions. I'm pleased you feel it necessary to question my integrity but unfortunately for you in this case your conspiratorial scenario has no grounding in reality.
Giving them the "kids' glove' treatment is really fair? Do what usually happens to exploits - lock their accts and make them file a petition. That way they can go thru the normal channel of the petition like others have too. I bet having to wait for the petition to be looked at, the back and forth msgs, decision making, well that would be a fairier way of handling this.
Instead you do the work for them, wasting time and resources that could be spent on other paying subscribers.
Is doing this for them really fair to other subscribers CCP Sreegs? |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:43:00 -
[187] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote:Instead you do the work for them, wasting time and resources that could be spent on other paying subscribers.
fyi
this sort of **** is Darius "CCP 'Jersey' Sreegs" Johnson's job
they literally hire him to deal with this sort of ****
he is not somehow sucking work away from other developers or gms like some kind of effort hungry vampire
this is his job
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Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
7
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Posted - 2012.06.28 20:44:00 -
[188] - Quote
Querns wrote:Dealth Striker wrote:Instead you do the work for them, wasting time and resources that could be spent on other paying subscribers. fyi this sort of **** is Darius "CCP 'Jersey' Sreegs" Johnson's job they literally hire him to deal with this sort of **** he is not somehow sucking work away from other developers or gms like some kind of effort hungry vampire this is his job
"group decision" |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
57
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Posted - 2012.06.28 20:47:00 -
[189] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote:"group decision" deciding what to do != doing it
EFFORT HUNGRY VAMPIRE
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:50:00 -
[190] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote:Querns wrote:Dealth Striker wrote:Instead you do the work for them, wasting time and resources that could be spent on other paying subscribers. fyi this sort of **** is Darius "CCP 'Jersey' Sreegs" Johnson's job they literally hire him to deal with this sort of **** he is not somehow sucking work away from other developers or gms like some kind of effort hungry vampire this is his job "group decision" Plus I do not think he will personally be doing everything to do the so-called fix. Does he also just sit around waiting for something like to happen - I do not think so.
CCP is a professional organization, meetings are a normal thing.
And as to "other developers" getting pulled in on the fix - it means a hole in the game is fixed. Would you rather it be fixed after being used by five players who, as much as you might like to believe otherwise, went out of their way to minimize damage to the markets? Or would you have preferred CCP only really notice two or three months from now when it had crept into the wild and dozens of players were doing it? Because believe me, other players would have figured this out eventually, and CCP's time spent fixing it would be spent one way or another. . |
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Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
8
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Posted - 2012.06.28 20:52:00 -
[191] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Dealth Striker wrote:Querns wrote:Dealth Striker wrote:Instead you do the work for them, wasting time and resources that could be spent on other paying subscribers. fyi this sort of **** is Darius "CCP 'Jersey' Sreegs" Johnson's job they literally hire him to deal with this sort of **** he is not somehow sucking work away from other developers or gms like some kind of effort hungry vampire this is his job "group decision" Plus I do not think he will personally be doing everything to do the so-called fix. Does he also just sit around waiting for something like to happen - I do not think so. CCP is a professional organization, meetings are a normal thing. And as to "other developers" getting pulled in on the fix - it means a hole in the game is fixed. Would you rather it be fixed after being used by five players who, as much as you might like to believe otherwise, went out of their way to minimize damage to the markets? Or would you have preferred CCP only really notice two or three months from now when it had crept into the wild and dozens of players were doing it? Because believe me, other players would have figured this out eventually, and CCP's time spent fixing it would be spent one way or another.
Sorry did not clarify - my comments are in regards to dealing with the 5 players and not the exploit itself |
Damion Rayne
Lorentz Technology Group
102
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:56:00 -
[192] - Quote
Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes
Agreed, proves my point. Goons are free and clear to do what ever they wish with not punishment what so ever. It's only a matter of time before the Goons reach their goal of destroying Eve. Wake up people, the goons are hackers, exploiters, and generally evil people in the real world and in Eve. They need to be removed from this game entirely before they destroy it for the rest of us. Teamwork.. Maturity.. Tactics.. www.tacticalgamer.com |
Xutech
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
186
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:00:00 -
[193] - Quote
I wonder whether CCP Sreeg's earlier belligerent, confused and contrary posts in the original thread were also guided by a team of CCP economists and security experts.
Certainly his tone has changed today but he is still obviously struggling to digest the more difficult theoretical questions this wholly unsatisfactory blog has given.
It's been made clear that we must accept this judgement without access to any appropriate information and we cannot even get a solid definition of how we might avoid this in the future. Being told not to make too much isk or apply too complex a theory to your financial schemes is....pathetic. |
Damion Rayne
Lorentz Technology Group
102
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:02:00 -
[194] - Quote
Xutech wrote:I wonder whether CCP Sreeg's earlier belligerent, confused and contrary posts in the original thread were also guided by a team of CCP economists and security experts.
Certainly his tone has changed today but he is still obviously struggling to digest the more difficult theoretical questions this wholly unsatisfactory blog has given.
It's been made clear that we must accept this judgement without access to any appropriate information and we cannot even get a solid definition of how we might avoid this in the future. Being told not to make too much isk or apply too complex a theory to your financial schemes is....pathetic.
Says a member of thee biggest threat to Eve Online. Figures you guys would try and state that you did nothing wrong, after all, goons never hacked, never exploit, never meta game and tell people to kill themselves. Oh no, Goons are angels...
Shut up, you people are the scourge of this game and should be eradicated from it.
Teamwork.. Maturity.. Tactics.. www.tacticalgamer.com |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1922
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:05:00 -
[195] - Quote
Xutech wrote:I wonder whether CCP Sreeg's earlier belligerent, confused and contrary posts in the original thread were also guided by a team of CCP economists and security experts.
Certainly his tone has changed today but he is still obviously struggling to digest the more difficult theoretical questions this wholly unsatisfactory blog has given.
It's been made clear that we must accept this judgement without access to any appropriate information and we cannot even get a solid definition of how we might avoid this in the future. Being told not to make too much isk or apply too complex a theory to your financial schemes is....pathetic.
Hi. I'm sorry if "Blowing your ship up over and over again with various items in the hold to manufacture a particular currency from thin air" isn't clear enough for you but I'm afraid it's a bit difficult to be more clear or direct. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Protheroe
UMEC
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:07:00 -
[196] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Atomic Option wrote:I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool. PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one. Will there be rewards for any of the other people who tried to bring to your attention that the system might be manipulated? |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1922
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:09:00 -
[197] - Quote
Protheroe wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Atomic Option wrote:I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool. PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one. Will there be rewards for any of the other people who tried to bring to your attention that the system might be manipulated?
Not if they didn't report it to me directly as per the mention in the thread linked from the blog. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Gossamer DT
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
81
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:11:00 -
[198] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes Agreed, proves my point. Goons are free and clear to do what ever they wish with not punishment what so ever. It's only a matter of time before the Goons reach their goal of destroying Eve. Wake up people, the goons are hackers, exploiters, and generally evil people in the real world and in Eve. They need to be removed from this game entirely before they destroy it for the rest of us.
Ohh stop, I am blushing here...do you really believe what you type? who is your main, and what does he do? |
TheSpyInCorp
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:14:00 -
[199] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo.
Fair enough. I hope you're having a good long conversation about how to fix Forex markets to keep them from being manipulated. It would be spectacular to see CCP be the first Gaming company win the Nobel Prize for Economics.
Would it even be eligible for a Nobel Prize? The biggest difference between real world economics and eve economics is that in eve we pay for everything with the present value of ISK whereas the real world economy has a future value of money due to interest, compound interest, depreciating salvage value, etc since companies and individuals all borrow money from banks.
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:16:00 -
[200] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes Agreed, proves my point. Goons are free and clear to do what ever they wish with not punishment what so ever. It's only a matter of time before the Goons reach their goal of destroying Eve. Wake up people, the goons are hackers, exploiters, and generally evil people in the real world and in Eve. They need to be removed from this game entirely before they destroy it for the rest of us.
Oh you. You're such a flatterer, I'm blushing.
(for someone who prides themselves on maturity, according to their sig, you sure are freaking out like a ten year old girl here) . |
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Aemonchichi
Limited Access Guardian Society
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:23:00 -
[201] - Quote
so if i exploit a game mechanic over and over to amass insane amount of LPs ISKies etc for weeks and then i go : lulz ccp i owned the system then i get plex for snitches ?
you should name that programm more appropriate cause i doubt a person can snitch itself ^^
i am happy you come to the conclusion this was a exploit but i do not see you acting according to it, in fact it feels like you are encouraging players to repeat stuff like that in the future
taking the gain of someone using a exploit deliberatly should be the most basic reaction and cannot be part of a "fine" or "punishment"
in fact they exploited excessively and after correction of the exploited mechanism they get rewarded with plex
that does not even remotely feel right to me and i think CCP let a opportunity slip to make a clear statement of how they do not want stuff like this to happen ever again |
Sephira Galamore
Nemesis Holdings Corp Luna Sanguinem
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:24:00 -
[202] - Quote
From Sreegs blog "responsible disclosure - reporting security issues"
Quote:Simply saying "something is broken" isn't always helpful, but saying "something's broken and here's how I broke it" is what we're looking for. So, using the exploit to demonstrate it is actually quite ok, right? Disclosing it in the way it was done, publicly and with a lot of smug, isn't.^^ (And yes, while the document DID leak at first, don't tell me you weren't going to post this either way) |
TheSpyInCorp
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:28:00 -
[203] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ziranda Hakuli wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Zagdul wrote:Shouldn't they also retain LP equivalent to 2 weeks worth of 'normal' game play?
They were playing, they did let you know and they did participate in Faction Warfare. I really don't want to discuss actions against individual players any more than was detailed in the blog for informational purposes. Sorry duder. Sreegs i aplogize ahead for this one man. I know you cannot discuss what disciplinary actions are done to player XYZ nd so on but many will be disappointed if there are no Bannings. The group knew; they got their Egg heads together played with the formula and went hey you know you can do this and so a group went and did exactly how the egg heads said and exploited it and then said something about it. they did toss you under the bus not once but multiple times over this issue alone. A lot of folks feel they should be banned. if it was any other group they would have been banned in a blink of an eye and then work on the investigation. Many of us have talked about this and the general concensus is that your doing the father thing Shaking the finger at them and speaking in a stern voice "Do not do that again or else" Many have seen this and many want what the rules say to happen to them. Sorry Sreegs had to say my peice on this and hope you do the right thing. Peace We feel we did the right thing and it's unfortunate that we perhaps disagree in the severity of the response but unfortunately that's going to happen every time we make any decision.
plus, not everyone in the world is a white knight. If the result of reporting an exploit after exploting it yourself resulted in a ban, the only people who would ACTUALLY REPORT the exploit would be the white knights. Hopefully you see why that would be a problem
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Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
229
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:33:00 -
[204] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: Once we're done determining how much each person has benefitted we will remove the LP gained value in LP and items and return the ISK invested in the purchase of items to them. This essentially will set each of them back to the original point at which they began this activity. The person who reported the issue will receive the usual PLEX for Snitches reward.
When a child breaks his toys into a mess on the floor, you pick up all the pieces and throw them in the trash.
You don't glue them all back together so he can smash them tomorrow, and you sure as hell don't give him a piece of cake for doing it.
I feel I must congratulate you on recognizing it was an exploit. I'm surprised you recognized that.. (or was that dictated from above?)
I'm not mad, this is pretty much what I figured would happen. But you and I both know that if I'd have done this instead of your ex-goon buddies... or any other normal player, we would have been banned with no threadnaught to avenge us.
Good to know CCP resources will be spent to glue the Goons stuff back together for them. I'm sure they won't smash those toys again given the first opportunity. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
54
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:34:00 -
[205] - Quote
TheSpyInCorp wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo.
Fair enough. I hope you're having a good long conversation about how to fix Forex markets to keep them from being manipulated. It would be spectacular to see CCP be the first Gaming company win the Nobel Prize for Economics. Would it even be eligible for a Nobel Prize? The biggest difference between real world economics and eve economics is that in eve we pay for everything with the present value of ISK whereas the real world economy has a future value of money due to interest, compound interest, depreciating salvage value, etc since companies and individuals all borrow money from banks.
It wouldn't be directly applicable, but protecting an almost impossible to regulate market from manipulation would be a first... ever, so I imagine that it wouldn't be an enormous step to get it applied to real markets, especially since Futures markets are kind of understood. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:39:00 -
[206] - Quote
It pains me to see the degree of stupidity displayed by those apparently unable to see how this was an obvious exploit, or perhaps they just can't understand what was happening.
However, this appears to have been handled perfectly to me and even the 5 people directly involved are content with it. Though it would've been more amusing (for everyone else anyways) if even more assets than were profited through this exploitation remained seized... but that's just because they're goons.
Nor do I really understand people calling for bans when CCP is clearly capable of reversing the gains obtained through this fairly benign exploit. |
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
41
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:39:00 -
[207] - Quote
We, the players already told you that this will happen!
my own remark there might be many others in that thread as well
So, yes, sometimes it does make sense to listen to us! |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:42:00 -
[208] - Quote
Rented wrote:It pains me to see the degree of stupidity displayed by those apparently unable to see how this was an obvious exploit, or perhaps they just can't understand what was happening.
However, this appears to have been handled perfectly to me and even the 5 people directly involved are content with it. Though it would've been more amusing (for everyone else anyways) if even more assets than were profited through this exploitation remained seized... but that's just because they're goons.
Nor do I really understand people calling for bans when CCP is clearly capable of reversing the gains obtained through this fairly benign exploit.
At least you're honest and frank that your motivating desire to see us get ****ed is because we're goons. More than many other posters in this thread can say I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:43:00 -
[209] - Quote
CCP admitting it was an exploit - Kudos! CCP fixing said exploit - Kudos! CCP saying what is happening to the exploiters - Thumbs Down!
I feel u should have never said what their punishment (if you can call it that) was. CCP could have just said their accts are locked and they need to petition to get them unlocked. Then the public would not know (from CCP) how they were dealt with. But they would know what is involved in being in the petition queue.
From what I am reading in the blog and feedback, my opinion is:
Eve Community - the minority
Goons - the Majority |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:44:00 -
[210] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote: Eve Community - the minority
Goons - the Majority
4000 players are a majority out of a few hundred thousand.
Got it. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
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