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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
2564
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Sreegs has been busy investigating a recent event and now he's here to tell you all about the results. Check out the blog and give us your feedback right here. CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
447
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sometimes Emergent Gameplay means dunking so hard you break the backboard!
I can't say we are happy about this decision, but we respect it. Being unwound is a good thing as it gets us our capital back, and at least shows CCP wanted to be fair here. I applaud that decision.
Highest Kill Value ever in EVE? http://imgur.com/1fSsT |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
509
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 15:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yo the blog is broken.
e: Fixed now.
Aryth wins for the largest kill, but only because he had an iteron V pilot available. http://i.imgur.com/EE02F.png is what you can...er, could...do with bestowers. . |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
74
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
I may not like what this graph represents, but I do like graphs. Content Designer | Team Five 0 @regnerBA |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3760
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
"The person who reported the issue will receive the usual PLEX for Snitches reward."
aahahahahaha |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1889
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:I may not like what this graph represents, but I do like graphs.
We can agree without being agreeable "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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RAP ACTION HERO
116
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
WELP |
ChromeStriker
The Riot Formation Executive Outcomes
167
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
:D
- Nulla Curas |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1204
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 15:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Could've been worse vOv a rogue goon |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3760
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
That graph is one of the most hilarious things I've ever seen. |
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Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1185
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
hey sreegs i hate to point this out but you seem to be missing an axis there well ok see ya |
Aryndel Vyst
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
400
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
SREEGS |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
167
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
What sort of metrics does CCP watch for to catch these kinds of exploits? And what sort of systems can be put in place to understand why LP is coming from nothing, similar to how tech was coming from nothing under the previous silo duplication exploit? |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1889
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:hey sreegs i hate to point this out but you seem to be missing an axis there well ok see ya
whoops "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
509
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
If he doesn't correct the graph, the major axis lines on it have to be at least 200m LP. . |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1889
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:What sort of metrics does CCP watch for to catch these kinds of exploits? And what sort of systems can be put in place to understand why LP is coming from nothing, similar to how tech was coming from nothing under the previous silo duplication exploit?
Without getting into too much detail things as simple as watching top LP gains by player is a fairly simple one. If you look at the graph provided you really only had to look at the LP at all to see it spike. The other indicator is LP by faction. All the other factions are kinda even keep and Minmitar was like OH HI!
:edit: I just realized I only half answered your question but I want to leave it that way for the time being. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
447
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
That graph is a thing of beauty. I like it how it has 5 points too, with one little baby point down at the bottom. That was probably querns. You can just hear the glass shattering!
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1889
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
corestwo wrote:If he doesn't correct the graph, the major axis lines on it have to be at least 200m LP.
The graph was edited on purpose as we didn't see the value in divulging the number. The disparity is what's important. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
447
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
corestwo wrote:If he doesn't correct the graph, the major axis lines on it have to be at least 200m LP.
Sshh. They just handed us more data that only we know the true axis on. Heheheheh. Reverse engineer! |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1185
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
sort of a Daily Mail graph then |
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Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
809
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
Shouldn't they also retain LP equivalent to 2 weeks worth of 'normal' game play?
They were playing, they did let you know and they did participate in Faction Warfare.
A list of fixes for the new inventory
Dual Pane idea clicky |
Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
123
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Something had to be done - I think even the ones directly involved wouldn't argue about that.
Not too heavy handed, not too dismissive, a good middle point.
Still, I'd looooooooove to see a tiny, minuscule, diminutive admission by the lead designer(s) that the way FW was changed was so prone to abuse that it practically required the exploiting of those new mechanics by the Group Of Online Notorious 'Sploiters.
Still, CCP Sreegs best Sreegs. << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3764
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Is it an exploit to take advantage of a naturally occuring disparity between market price and average price? In essence, can I farm this system if I didn't tamper with the average price in any way? |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
509
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:corestwo wrote:If he doesn't correct the graph, the major axis lines on it have to be at least 200m LP. The graph was edited on purpose as we didn't see the value in divulging the number. The disparity is what's important.
Sorry to spoil your secrecy then . |
Nex apparatu5
Friendship is Podding Test Alliance Please Ignore
297
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
CCP resolved this fairly and reasonably.
WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE REAL CCP |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1889
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
Zagdul wrote:Shouldn't they also retain LP equivalent to 2 weeks worth of 'normal' game play?
They were playing, they did let you know and they did participate in Faction Warfare.
I really don't want to discuss actions against individual players any more than was detailed in the blog for informational purposes. Sorry duder. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
160
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
Can we get a statue in Yulai or something |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1185
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:01:00 -
[28] - Quote
then we can shoot at it until the fantastic five get their money back |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
447
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
Other posts bring up a intersting point though. If in the future, after the system is fixed/revamped whatever. If this becomes slightly possible again but not to the degree shown here, would that be legal? I am not trying to words lawyer, just trying to see where the boundary is.
Once something is reported, and time gone by to remediate, does anything after that pass muster? |
Swearte Widfarend
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
114
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:06:00 -
[30] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Is it an exploit to take advantage of a naturally occuring disparity between market price and average price? In essence, can I farm this system if I didn't tamper with the average price in any way?
Aryth wrote:Other posts bring up a intersting point though. If in the future, after the system is fixed/revamped whatever. If this becomes slightly possible again but not to the degree shown here, would that be legal? I am not trying to words lawyer, just trying to see where the boundary is.
Once something is reported, and time gone by to remediate, does anything after that pass muster?
Sreegs - if we do not manipulate prices but do research to take advantage of existing market values, is this still exploiting? Your blog seems to hint that it is. Democracy is only as good as the despot managing the voting booth. |
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PDC Agni
Perseus Development Corporation
0
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:09:00 -
[31] - Quote
Instead of calculating LP based on total value why not create a value for each ship and then a range based on load out and cargo. For example a Rifter might base at 5 LP and get anywhere from 1-5 additional based on total value. A Jaguar might be 15 LP and have a 1-10 bonus available (numbers totally made up). |
Cerebral Wolf
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
13
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:11:00 -
[32] - Quote
we should be able to manipulate it, same as pretty much anything in eve can be manipulated. They should just have limits in place to stop it being so mental next time. |
Squizz Caphinator
Iocaine Industries Happy Endings
45
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:11:00 -
[33] - Quote
API or GTFO :)
(no really, I'd love to see that on eve-kill as API verified) http://evewho.com - Alliance and Corporation Member Listings http://evechatter.com - Free Alliance and Corporation forums for all. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
8
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:12:00 -
[34] - Quote
Those guys deserve a nice spotlight, lore mention or smth like that at least. Even being an exploit it is a really good story to tell which EVE mechanics, our beloved sandbox allowed. A mention in the lore of a biggest fraud happened in new Eden is at least it can be done. And the fraud ending that those 5 guys warning the authorities about what happened and beacuse of that they got forgiven.
Well smth like that |
Drago Palermus
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
26
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:13:00 -
[35] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Other posts bring up a intersting point though. If in the future, after the system is fixed/revamped whatever. If this becomes slightly possible again but not to the degree shown here, would that be legal? I am not trying to words lawyer, just trying to see where the boundary is.
Once something is reported, and time gone by to remediate, does anything after that pass muster? The boundary between exploitation and manipulation is gray, like the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. CCP would probably (loosely) define an exploit as: a method that can generate an infinite, or near-infinite, amount of isk in a short period of time with little-to-no risk to the participants.
Your hypothetical future scenario sounds more like arbitrage.
PS: I am jealous of your finance cabal. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
510
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:13:00 -
[36] - Quote
Squizz Caphinator wrote:API or GTFO :) (no really, I'd love to see that on eve-kill as API verified) Might not be as impressive on eve-kill depending on whether or not eve-kill uses the new kill value yet. . |
Apparent Decadence
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:18:00 -
[37] - Quote
Market manipulation is par for the course for Eve. No one seems to be bothered about the other side of this scheme - pre-arranged PVP kills.
In most PVP games, this is punishable. In Eve, it's not usually worthwhile. Here it was. Should it be punished? |
Illectroculus Defined
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
61
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:19:00 -
[38] - Quote
Does this mean Twitter.com will get a PLEX for snitches reward?
(Aryth, if you ever need to use twitter in the future you should ask me how it works first :) |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3767
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:20:00 -
[39] - Quote
Apparent Decadence wrote:Market manipulation is par for the course for Eve. No one seems to be bothered about the other side of this scheme - pre-arranged PVP kills.
In most PVP games, this is punishable. In Eve, it's not usually worthwhile. Here it was. Should it be punished? hell no |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
8
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:21:00 -
[40] - Quote
Drago Palermus wrote:Aryth wrote:Other posts bring up a intersting point though. If in the future, after the system is fixed/revamped whatever. If this becomes slightly possible again but not to the degree shown here, would that be legal? I am not trying to words lawyer, just trying to see where the boundary is.
Once something is reported, and time gone by to remediate, does anything after that pass muster? The boundary between exploitation and manipulation is gray, like the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. CCP would probably (loosely) define an exploit as: a method that can generate an infinite, or near-infinite, amount of isk in a short period of time with little-to-no risk to the participants. Your hypothetical future scenario sounds more like arbitrage. PS: I am jealous of your finance cabal.
Well whatever u want to call it mate, just get em in the lore!!! :DDDDD i play this game just to read about these kind of stories and maybe one day be part in one of it :DD
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
686
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:21:00 -
[41] - Quote
Manipulating market prices = Exploiting.
There literally is no sandbox anymore. |
Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
43
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
Sreegs,
as long as you have isk to lp or lp to isk its still exploitable.
where a nominal value for an item is fixed on a time period orders of magnitude higher than the separation in time between trades or trade modifications, its still exploitable.
you can minimize these windows in two ways
a) exclude cargo from the value of the ship loss - in faction warfare in eve, REAL cargoes are going to be on a neutral alt anyway this removes most opportunities to use "sticky" valuations in a fast moving market
b) don't use the the ISK value as your basis for the LP .. use a log(ISK value) to minimize distortions from very high value items |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
510
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:23:00 -
[43] - Quote
Apparent Decadence wrote:Market manipulation is par for the course for Eve. No one seems to be bothered about the other side of this scheme - pre-arranged PVP kills.
In most PVP games, this is punishable. In Eve, it's not usually worthwhile. Here it was. Should it be punished?
Eve is not "most PVP games" and CCP is mot the developer of most CCP games. The fact that we're here, posting, instead of having been banned on the spot with no questions asked is proof of that, and the game is better for it.
And look it at as a roleplay move. Think about the inferno trailer movie - "For the right price, I'll set the universe on fire." You'd have to be crazy to think that if immortal spaceship pilots found out that they could make money by blowing up their friends, repeatedly, they'd do it in a heartbeat. . |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
48
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:25:00 -
[44] - Quote
Aryth wrote:That graph is a thing of beauty. I like it how it has 5 points too, with one little baby point down at the bottom. That was probably querns. You can just hear the glass shattering!
All my kills were on the 10th :colbert: |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1892
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:26:00 -
[45] - Quote
Swearte Widfarend wrote:Weaselior wrote:Is it an exploit to take advantage of a naturally occuring disparity between market price and average price? In essence, can I farm this system if I didn't tamper with the average price in any way? Aryth wrote:Other posts bring up a intersting point though. If in the future, after the system is fixed/revamped whatever. If this becomes slightly possible again but not to the degree shown here, would that be legal? I am not trying to words lawyer, just trying to see where the boundary is.
Once something is reported, and time gone by to remediate, does anything after that pass muster? Sreegs - if we do not manipulate prices but do research to take advantage of existing market values, is this still exploiting? Your blog seems to hint that it is.
I'm going to pass this point around internally. I'm not really comfortable answering this Maverick-Style. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Lili Lu
293
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:27:00 -
[46] - Quote
See and here's the key part:
CCP Sreegs wrote: I wrote a blog on "Responsible Disclosures" a year or so ago. In that blog I mention that telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system.
Now the real improtant question is what if the actions had occurred after notification, due to inaction on CCP's part. Because I could see that happening. The future awaits |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
452
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:29:00 -
[47] - Quote
Squizz Caphinator wrote:API or GTFO :) (no really, I'd love to see that on eve-kill as API verified)
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&view=kills&plt_id=1372523&m=6&y=2012
That is one char. EVE Kill doesn't seem to use CCP values though. But even with EVE Central prices the 160b freighter kill will stand etc. |
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CCP GingerDude
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:32:00 -
[48] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:What sort of metrics does CCP watch for to catch these kinds of exploits? And what sort of systems can be put in place to understand why LP is coming from nothing, similar to how tech was coming from nothing under the previous silo duplication exploit?
This did also show up as a statistical anomaly in our player event metrics although it took a while for it to properly register. I.e. we noticed and would've taken action regardless of snitching. Senior Server Programmer |
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Atomic Option
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
19
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:32:00 -
[49] - Quote
I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
8
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:33:00 -
[50] - Quote
This act i d call like:
Getting advantage of fully functional in game mechanics in a non fair way.
Thats like a worst thing i can say bout this act and it is a bit of CCPs fault too so... LORE mention pls |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1892
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:33:00 -
[51] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Manipulating market prices = Exploiting.
There literally is no sandbox anymore.
Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
Nowhere has anyone said Manipulating Market Prices is exploiting. Ever. At all. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1892
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:34:00 -
[52] - Quote
Atomic Option wrote:I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool.
PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
50
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:37:00 -
[53] - Quote
So this has been a pretty wild ride, but I still have one more question -- when spitballing FW Forex, I thought of a crucial limitation to the whole shebang, and perhaps, in the spirit of amusement, one of you lovely CCP types could verify this for me. Is the column in the database tasked with storing a player's LP a signed 32-bit integer? I was legitimately worried that if we breached 2.1 billion LP, it would wrap around to a negative value. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
511
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:38:00 -
[54] - Quote
Querns wrote:So this has been a pretty wild ride, but I still have one more question -- when spitballing FW Forex, I thought of a crucial limitation to the whole shebang, and perhaps, in the spirit of amusement, one of you lovely CCP types could verify this for me. Is the column in the database tasked with storing a player's LP a signed 32-bit integer? I was legitimately worried that if we breached 2.1 billion LP, it would wrap around to a negative value.
Also curious about this. We all assumed that it wasn't a signed 32-bit integer, because wallets aren't, but we definitely joked about it happening, and about what an entertaining petition it would make. . |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
50
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:39:00 -
[55] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Querns wrote:So this has been a pretty wild ride, but I still have one more question -- when spitballing FW Forex, I thought of a crucial limitation to the whole shebang, and perhaps, in the spirit of amusement, one of you lovely CCP types could verify this for me. Is the column in the database tasked with storing a player's LP a signed 32-bit integer? I was legitimately worried that if we breached 2.1 billion LP, it would wrap around to a negative value. Also curious about this. We all assumed that it wasn't a signed 32-bit integer, because wallets aren't, but we definitely joked about it happening, and about what an entertaining petition it would make. Yeah, that would have probably been the best petition ever. "My Tribal Liberation Front LP is negative!!!!!" |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1893
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:40:00 -
[56] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Querns wrote:So this has been a pretty wild ride, but I still have one more question -- when spitballing FW Forex, I thought of a crucial limitation to the whole shebang, and perhaps, in the spirit of amusement, one of you lovely CCP types could verify this for me. Is the column in the database tasked with storing a player's LP a signed 32-bit integer? I was legitimately worried that if we breached 2.1 billion LP, it would wrap around to a negative value. Also curious about this. We all assumed that it wasn't a signed 32-bit integer, because wallets aren't, but we definitely joked about it happening, and about what an entertaining petition it would make.
I'll ask internally but I'm not sure I'd tell you either way. To my knowledge we don't really give out that level of detail about our DB structure. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Salpun
Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects
329
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:44:00 -
[57] - Quote
Will the LP dumped into the FW system states be reversed as well? |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
511
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:45:00 -
[58] - Quote
Salpun wrote:Will the LP dumped into the FW system states be reversed as well?
Seeing as Minmatar were down to something like 160 points the other day, Amarr is doing a fine job of reversing the LP dumped on their own.
e: To clarify, Minmatar had Tier 4 before we came in. At most, the effect of our actions on the course of the war was that they were able to hold onto tier 4 longer than they may have on their own. Fweddit seems to be a force to be reckoned with. . |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
591
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:46:00 -
[59] - Quote
Well, Sreegs, what harm could come of it? Clearly nobody will ever be smarter than CCP ever again and you won't have to worry about players reaching that level of LP. Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
Nagapito
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels In Tea We Trust
15
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:47:00 -
[60] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? |
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Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
34
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:48:00 -
[61] - Quote
That tells me all I need to know.
This game is a sandbox except when it isn't, which is determined via an arbitrary ruleset by an enforcement team who doesn't care about breaking the illusion of a sandbox.
Eve Online, 5/6/2003 - 6/28/2012, may she rest in peace. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
770
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:48:00 -
[62] - Quote
My opinion: If you disclose an exploit to CCP, and then use said exploit, you are doing something wrong: Using what you yourself acknowledged as an exploit.
Also, many have this odd idea: "They did not fix it yet, so I got to force their hand". Why do you have to force their hand? If your enemy starts using the exploit, they will get the fallout when CCP nerfs them.
But to CCP, that is an issue. Someone discloses an exploit, their enemy starts using it, and you do nothing. In the moon mining exploit, you did nothing for a very long time. (To be fair, it was reported as a bug, not an exploit and never got into CCP's exploit fixing system. CCP just told those reporting it what the workaround for the bug was.)
This entire "LP for value destroyed" can be exploited in many ways. It does not have to be a LP store item that is traded up to a silly high value. CCP could actually fix that one by saying the LP handed out for the destruction of any item that is also available at a LP store will never exceed its LP cost.
But what about rarely traded items not available at the LP store? Especially ones that players can quickly create in large quantities, but are sufficiently unpopular that their trade volume is low? Those got to be handled too. Including unpopular T1 modules fitted to ships, and unpopular ships.
Also consider two players in different alliances that secretly work together: One drives up the price of an item to an unreal value. The other "just does market research" to find this item, and then buys a bunch at the real price and gets it destroyed. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3768
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:53:00 -
[63] - Quote
Nagapito wrote: So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?
That's sort of what we're asking. It's clear it's an exploit to manipulate the price, then use it. What we're asking is if it's an exploit to use a differential we didn't create. |
So Sensational
Ventures
29
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:54:00 -
[64] - Quote
Mechaet wrote:That tells me all I need to know.
This game is a sandbox except when it isn't, which is determined via an arbitrary ruleset by an enforcement team who doesn't care about breaking the illusion of a sandbox.
Eve Online, 5/6/2003 - 6/28/2012, may she rest in peace. Devs developing their game in the way they think is best? Whodathunk! |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
455
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:55:00 -
[65] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Nagapito wrote: So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?
That's sort of what we're asking. It's clear it's an exploit to manipulate the price, then use it. What we're asking is if it's an exploit to use a differential we didn't create.
This. The market creates these disparties on it's own sometimes without player help. At least active help. Is it ok to use it then? Is it ok to use it as a matter converter? Essentially this system can function like reprocessing for any item in EVE. It has dramatic implications for EVE going forward. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1899
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:55:00 -
[66] - Quote
Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?
As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
688
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:57:00 -
[67] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:We are displeased that you are using the money printing machines we made to print money. |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
591
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:59:00 -
[68] - Quote
Insurance fraud was anything but hypothetical, took place on a massive scale, and was even documented in at least one devblog and probably more. And it was legal. Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:00:00 -
[69] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. Printing money, or printing LP? There's a pretty big difference. Printing LP doesn't specifically print money; in fact, it reduces the amount of money in the economy by a nontrivial amount. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
34
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:00:00 -
[70] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Manipulating market prices = Exploiting.
There literally is no sandbox anymore. Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency. That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item. Nowhere has anyone said Manipulating Market Prices is exploiting. Ever. At all. I'm not trying to argue with you here, but I felt compelled to notify you about this little gem:
Quote:What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency
Uhm, all values in the market are artificial? Literally all of them. Sure, we divine an acceptable price based on mineral costs, but those too are artificial values, given value by the players charging X for them based on how they value their time, plus a sliding adjustment to curb demand (if they're smart). Ergo, there are no "real" values of an item because the entire economy runs on artificial value. |
|
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
89
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:01:00 -
[71] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.
Along those same lines, what about people who didn't actively manipulate the value of items, but benefited from these manipulations?
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
512
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:02:00 -
[72] - Quote
Bagehi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. Along those same lines, what about people who didn't actively manipulate the value of items, but benefited from these manipulations?
He already said he'd pass that one around internally. . |
Red Teufel
Blackened Skies THE UNTHINKABLES
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:05:00 -
[73] - Quote
doesn't really make sense to me. they didn't report the exploit immediatly, they abused it for two weeks, then basicly took the work ccp did for FW and took a steamy dump on it in front of the entire player base. who knows how much this frustrated players or caused people to unsub. who's in charge here ccp? you or goons? my best guess a dev told em about the exploit and it wouldn't be the first time a dev has given someone in game a perk. (cough t2 bpos! for all my friends cough cough) |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
826
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:06:00 -
[74] - Quote
And here I was hoping they'd end up losing the ISK they put into buying stuff... ;( 84,000 AUR ($420) spent on NeX store for Troll and Profit. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:08:00 -
[75] - Quote
So Sensational wrote:Mechaet wrote:That tells me all I need to know.
This game is a sandbox except when it isn't, which is determined via an arbitrary ruleset by an enforcement team who doesn't care about breaking the illusion of a sandbox.
Eve Online, 5/6/2003 - 6/28/2012, may she rest in peace. Devs developing their game in the way they think is best? Whodathunk! Devs breaking the sandbox to intervene when it's not required of them to do so. No harm came of this activity, no isk was generated, in fact trillions of isk were removed from the game via the isk sink that is the LP store. There literally was no reason to intervene here, except that they felt they got pantsed by some very smart players.
And they did. Because they wrote a terrible game mechanic. This should be a learning experience for them, not us. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1900
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:08:00 -
[76] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Weaselior wrote:Nagapito wrote: So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?
That's sort of what we're asking. It's clear it's an exploit to manipulate the price, then use it. What we're asking is if it's an exploit to use a differential we didn't create. This. The market creates these disparties on it's own sometimes without player help. At least active help. Is it ok to use it then? Is it ok to use it as a matter converter? Essentially this system can function like reprocessing for any item in EVE. It has dramatic implications for EVE going forward.
I think it certainly has an impact on EVE as you stated, but that impact is something new. To make a statement of USING THE MARKET TO GAIN MONEY IS OVER EVE IS DYING, is a bit silly. (Not you specifically but others in this thread) This isn't a legacy problem and has no impact on how you deal with existing systems. It only impacts your interaction with FW.
What we need to do is take a good long hard look at how to deal with items that have disparate values in what are essentially two currencies. I'm pretty sure that is the pivot point in this scenario and from that perspective I'm just Winston Wolf. I don't design these systems.
As it stands today our stance is that buying something and purposely blowing it up to generate value in another currency is exploiting. It was clearly not our intent in creating the system for that to occur. The system was meant to encourage PVP not wanton suicidal destruction to print money.
I guess it would somewhat logically be the same to use an example as going to the lamp shop in America, buying a lamp and smashing it, and having the Chinese manufacturer send more money than you paid for it to your account over and over and over again. It's a bit of a stretch in my opinion at least to think this would ever be acceptable.
There's certainly a design flaw here that needs to be worked out but we have never intentionally introduced a system in EVE where buying an item and killing yourself should be a legitimate way to manufacture income. Least of all on a massive scale. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
901
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:09:00 -
[77] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Manipulating market prices = Exploiting.
There literally is no sandbox anymore.
yeeeeah, um, thats not what happened Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 sales Xbox 360: 2.2 million PlayStation 3: 1.5 million PC: 500,000http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |
Galizur Zageban
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:09:00 -
[78] - Quote
bad goons using exploits and then saying CCP is kiling sandbox bohoho |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1900
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:11:00 -
[79] - Quote
Querns wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. Printing money, or printing LP? There's a pretty big difference. Printing LP doesn't specifically print money; in fact, it reduces the amount of money in the economy by a nontrivial amount.
What is the value of LP by itself? "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
901
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:11:00 -
[80] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:We are displeased that you are using the money printing machines we made to print money.
this would be more like, you buy a rifter, and the insurance payout is 3 billion isk.
Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 sales Xbox 360: 2.2 million PlayStation 3: 1.5 million PC: 500,000http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1901
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:13:00 -
[81] - Quote
Bagehi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. Along those same lines, what about people who didn't actively manipulate the value of items, but benefited from these manipulations?
As stated in the blog only the five people who actively did this repeatedly were touched. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
168
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:14:00 -
[82] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.
I will point out that 'printing money from nowhere' is done by many mechanics, but they are being closed off. BPC lottery, datacores, living in a complex killing the last boss, etc. And of course, I say this while swimming scrouge mcduck style in a pool of technetium isk.
I think that it should be clear that market manipulation is legit gameplay, it is war with isk instead of guns. The only sketchy part was the LP conversion using these modified prices, and even then, it would be something I think CCP should be able to catch. For real world example, if you have one person looting every single X-Type hardener... Shouldn't you be able to pick up on that?
|
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
592
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:14:00 -
[83] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:As stated in the blog only the five people who actively did this repeatedly were touched.
CCP Sandusky
Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
771
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:15:00 -
[84] - Quote
Bagehi wrote:
Along those same lines, what about people who didn't actively manipulate the value of items, but benefited from these manipulations?
How will it be known that they did not do the manipulations themselves? Say with an alt on a trial account always played at a different location so as to have a different IP address?
http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
513
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:15:00 -
[85] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:As stated in the blog only the five people who actively did this repeatedly were touched.
Meaning, no, as much as many goons would like to see Jade lose the 8b isk he bragged about from Minmatar hitting Tier 5, he won't, nor would anyone else who happened to be online at the right time. I'm sure people will ask the same question about twenty times in the thread, though...
Vincent Athena wrote:Bagehi wrote:
Along those same lines, what about people who didn't actively manipulate the value of items, but benefited from these manipulations?
How will it be known that they did not do the manipulations themselves? Say with an alt on a trial account always played at a different location so as to have a different IP address? The original person was asking because Jade Constantine (among many others, but he posted about it) profited when we got Minmatar really close to Tier 5 and they finished the job. It irks many goons that someone they don't like legitimately profited off of our endeavors, you see. . |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:16:00 -
[86] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:For real world example, if you have one person looting every single X-Type hardener... Shouldn't you be able to pick up on that?
The logs show nothing. But they can make graphs up when they don't show the numbers. |
Tek Handle
Biotronics Inc. The Initiative.
20
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:16:00 -
[87] - Quote
Good job CCP! Honestly!
PS. I like Goon tears. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
513
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:17:00 -
[88] - Quote
Mechaet wrote:Kismeteer wrote:For real world example, if you have one person looting every single X-Type hardener... Shouldn't you be able to pick up on that?
The logs show nothing. But they can make graphs up when they don't show the numbers.
You didn't read the thread, did you? Sreegs said they left the numbers out on purpose. I can assure you, however, that the graph is quite correct and by no means made up... . |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1901
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:17:00 -
[89] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. I will point out that 'printing money from nowhere' is done by many mechanics, but they are being closed off. BPC lottery, datacores, living in a complex killing the last boss, etc. And of course, I say this while swimming scrouge mcduck style in a pool of technetium isk. I think that it should be clear that market manipulation is legit gameplay, it is war with isk instead of guns. The only sketchy part was the LP conversion using these modified prices, and even then, it would be something I think CCP should be able to catch. For real world example, if you have one person looting every single X-Type hardener... Shouldn't you be able to pick up on that?
Yeah I'm pretty sure I already stated that just mucking with markets isn't the core problem here. The manipulation is only relevant because the number is used BY US to determine an item's value in a separate currency. This isn't in and of itself an issue until you buy a bunch of them and kill yourself over and over again to pump up massive sums of the foreign currency which in this case is LP. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Implying Implications
cuties4life
125
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:18:00 -
[90] - Quote
Disappointing. The sandbox is finished. Minmatar V3 gallery: http://minus.com/mOqXRikn5 |
|
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
55
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:19:00 -
[91] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:What is the value of LP by itself?
It's wholly dependent on the market. Earning LP doesn't actually generate you any money. Other players have to pay you in order for you to convert the currency to a meaningful state, unless you deal in a barter economy of skillbooks and starbase charters.
I won't disagree that generating hilarious amounts of LP is probably not right, but classifying it as "printing money" is just patently false.
Consider the (unlikely) situation in which CCP either hadn't noticed or didn't care about the FW forex actions. We would have generated infinite LP* (*note: probably no more than 2.1b at a time due to laffeaux signed 32-bit integer, and also it's not truly infinite because even the implants we manipulated had an isk cost to acquire, but that's just semantics.) Assuming that we were terrible at the game and were unable to show restraint in cashing out LP, prices for LP items would have steadily approached the isk cost of the items as LP value went to zero. At that point, you could hardly consider printing infinite LP to be "printing money" -- it's worthless! |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:19:00 -
[92] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.
Insurance fraud was anything but Hypothetical. Those exact circumstance happened and was abused on a very large scale. If it's an exploit, why no rollback? -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3768
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:20:00 -
[93] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: As it stands today our stance is that buying something and purposely blowing it up to generate value in another currency is exploiting. It was clearly not our intent in creating the system for that to occur. The system was meant to encourage PVP not wanton suicidal destruction to print money.
I guess it would somewhat logically be the same to use an example as going to the lamp shop in America, buying a lamp and smashing it, and having the Chinese manufacturer send more money than you paid for it to your account over and over and over again. It's a bit of a stretch in my opinion at least to think this would ever be acceptable.
I don't agree with this decision, but thanks for being clear about it. I would like to point out, however, that the second paragraph absolutely is acceptable and always has been in EVE: insurance fraud is allowed, has always been allowed, and although mechanisms were put in place to reduce its occurrence has never been considered an exploit. And it is straight minerals -> isk conversion, much as these mechanisms allow item -> lp conversion.
I also think it's untenable to try to create a system where you can easily and obviously convert things to LP but you are not allowed to, but that's more a problem for your team and discovering it's not really enforceable. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:21:00 -
[94] - Quote
How about if I convert currency (ISK) to other forms, and then use a long-standing, perfectly-understood game mechanic to convert those forms back to currency at a rate higher than input?
I'm only asking because I do this literally every day I play. I've acquired Scrooge McDuck levels of isk doing it, too. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:22:00 -
[95] - Quote
Red Teufel wrote:doesn't really make sense to me. they didn't report the exploit immediatly, they abused it for two weeks, then basicly took the work ccp did for FW and took a steamy dump on it in front of the entire player base. who knows how much this frustrated players or caused people to unsub. who's in charge here ccp? you or goons? my best guess a dev told em about the exploit and it wouldn't be the first time a dev has given someone in game a perk. (cough t2 bpos! for all my friends cough cough)
People warned CCP about this when they mentioned it in Fanfest. Forex in an economy as small as EvE (with infinite NPC supplies of one currency) is going to result in this happening. A lot. No matter what. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:22:00 -
[96] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Aryth wrote:Weaselior wrote:Nagapito wrote: So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?
That's sort of what we're asking. It's clear it's an exploit to manipulate the price, then use it. What we're asking is if it's an exploit to use a differential we didn't create. This. The market creates these disparties on it's own sometimes without player help. At least active help. Is it ok to use it then? Is it ok to use it as a matter converter? Essentially this system can function like reprocessing for any item in EVE. It has dramatic implications for EVE going forward. I think it certainly has an impact on EVE as you stated, but that impact is something new. To make a statement of USING THE MARKET TO GAIN MONEY IS OVER EVE IS DYING, is a bit silly. (Not you specifically but others in this thread) This isn't a legacy problem and has no impact on how you deal with existing systems. It only impacts your interaction with FW. What we need to do is take a good long hard look at how to deal with items that have disparate values in what are essentially two currencies. I'm pretty sure that is the pivot point in this scenario and from that perspective I'm just Winston Wolf. I don't design these systems. As it stands today our stance is that buying something and purposely blowing it up to generate value in another currency is exploiting. It was clearly not our intent in creating the system for that to occur. The system was meant to encourage PVP not wanton suicidal destruction to print money. I guess it would somewhat logically be the same to use an example as going to the lamp shop in America, buying a lamp and smashing it, and having the Chinese manufacturer send more money than you paid for it to your account over and over and over again. It's a bit of a stretch in my opinion at least to think this would ever be acceptable. There's certainly a design flaw here that needs to be worked out but we have never intentionally introduced a system in EVE where buying an item and killing yourself should be a legitimate way to manufacture income. Least of all on a massive scale.
I just want to point out, that even if someone generates negative returns doing this, they might still have very good financial reasons for doing so.
Please consider the reprocessing angle. This has essentially introduced a mechanic where you can reprocess anything in EVE and get a return (probably not what you paid for it of course). But many manipulation scenerios might mean you can remove some supply from EVE and profit on the spike in the item. I understand the intention wasn't that to begin with. I would ask the developers to consider the ramifications of that in EVE. I think it is a good thing to be able to get some value for anything in EVE as reprocessing tradionally has only worked for a portion of the market. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1901
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:22:00 -
[97] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. Insurance fraud was anything but Hypothetical. Those exact circumstance happened and was abused on a very large scale. If it's an exploit, why no rollback?
I'm discussing this exploit not any one of a number of hypothetical past or future exploits. (or non-exploits) "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3771
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:25:00 -
[98] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: I'm discussing this exploit not any one of a number of hypothetical past or future exploits. (or non-exploits)
The issue is the thing you've said directly applies to insurance fraud. Insurance fraud was directly a case where you blew something up and got more than the value of that item back - in isk not an alternative currency like lp. |
Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
830
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:29:00 -
[99] - Quote
While I'm sure this is destined to be a goon-run threadnaught, I personally think CCP handled this perfectly. They could have gone extreme and seized all of their assets and isk and banned them, or they could have just ignored the problem (old CCP), but this explanation and the consequences seem very well balanced and *gasp*... fair.
Whoever was in charge of dealing with this... should be given more freedom to deal with things.
+1
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1902
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:30:00 -
[100] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: I'm discussing this exploit not any one of a number of hypothetical past or future exploits. (or non-exploits)
The issue is the thing you've said directly applies to insurance fraud. Insurance fraud was directly a case where you blew something up and got more than the value of that item back - in isk not an alternative currency like lp.
I don't disagree at all I'm just tired and really not prepared to compare one to the other. I'm still heads down in fixing this one. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
513
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:31:00 -
[101] - Quote
Gogela wrote:While I'm sure this is destined to be a goon-run threadnaught, I personally think CCP handled this perfectly. They could have gone extreme and seized all of their assets and isk and banned them, or they could have just ignored the problem (old CCP), but this explanation and the consequences seem very well balanced and *gasp*... fair.
Whoever was in charge of dealing with this... should be given more freedom to deal with things.
+1
You may not have noticed, but all five of us involved (or the ones posting, anyway) are satisfied with CCP's judgement. I mean, we'd prefer our trillions, but we're all capable market players...I'm sure we'll get there on our own soon enough.
The other goons posting are posting because posting is what goons do. . |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:32:00 -
[102] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. Insurance fraud was anything but Hypothetical. Those exact circumstance happened and was abused on a very large scale. If it's an exploit, why no rollback? I'm discussing this exploit not any one of a number of hypothetical past or future exploits. (or non-exploits)
Fair enough. Insurance fraud just happened to hit both of your Xes in your IF X THEN CCP=Mad statement.
In fact, Insurance Fraud occurred the exact same way that the FW exploit started (with the freighters full of minerals).
The market fell >> The CCP value of minerals stayed higher than the market >> People committed blew up their ships to make tons of money. In this case it was LP, with insurance fraud it was ISK, and instead of having to pay for insurance, all you had to do was join FW.
The furtherance of the exploit was due to the small size of the EvE market and the presence of totally useless, rare items. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Squizz Caphinator
Iocaine Industries Happy Endings
45
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:35:00 -
[103] - Quote
Wow! Whenever a big isk kill is posted it gets reported in the channel. We had a mini-flood from our bot :)
Impressive even at EveKill's values (which we get from Eve-Central as a 30 day average).
Tyvm for sharing! http://evewho.com - Alliance and Corporation Member Listings http://evechatter.com - Free Alliance and Corporation forums for all. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3771
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:36:00 -
[104] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: I don't disagree at all I'm just tired and really not prepared to compare one to the other. I'm still heads down in fixing this one.
Understandable - thanks! |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
464
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:38:00 -
[105] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Gogela wrote:While I'm sure this is destined to be a goon-run threadnaught, I personally think CCP handled this perfectly. They could have gone extreme and seized all of their assets and isk and banned them, or they could have just ignored the problem (old CCP), but this explanation and the consequences seem very well balanced and *gasp*... fair.
Whoever was in charge of dealing with this... should be given more freedom to deal with things.
+1 You may not have noticed, but all five of us involved (or the ones posting, anyway) are satisfied with CCP's judgement. I mean, we'd prefer our trillions, but we're all capable market players...I'm sure we'll get there on our own soon enough. The other goons posting are posting because posting is what goons do.
Not only that, but I was already a trillionaire before this. It's not like I am crying all the way to the poor house if CCP just unwinds me. I will remain one of the riches players in EVE. Sure, I would more like trillions, but I got many news articles, a 160 page thread or whatever, multiple blogs/news annoucements and the most hilarious graph to ever exist in the history of EVE play.
Throw in the most ISK in kills/deaths records, and goddamn. I am pretty smug.
But really. The true reward is to dunk on Stoffer. If there is one things goons love, it's trolling goons. Even Ex-goons.
CCP gets press, we get our capital back, EVE gets another hilarious footnote in history. Everyone won here. We just won less than we woulda liked. |
Mme Pinkerton
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:39:00 -
[106] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency. Inquiring minds want to know how you determine the "real value" of an item.
Most economists gave up on the idea of an object measure of "value" that is more "real" than the market price at some point in the late 19th/early 20th century (notable exceptions of course being (neo-)Marxists who still try to stick to their labor theory of value). An IPO guide (David H'Levi) | Towards a Positive Argument For Investing (RAW23) | Freighter Operations 101 (Kazuo Ishiguro) | Dominion market analysis (Akita T)
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
515
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:40:00 -
[107] - Quote
Aryth wrote:corestwo wrote:Gogela wrote:While I'm sure this is destined to be a goon-run threadnaught, I personally think CCP handled this perfectly. They could have gone extreme and seized all of their assets and isk and banned them, or they could have just ignored the problem (old CCP), but this explanation and the consequences seem very well balanced and *gasp*... fair.
Whoever was in charge of dealing with this... should be given more freedom to deal with things.
+1 You may not have noticed, but all five of us involved (or the ones posting, anyway) are satisfied with CCP's judgement. I mean, we'd prefer our trillions, but we're all capable market players...I'm sure we'll get there on our own soon enough. The other goons posting are posting because posting is what goons do. Not only that, but I was already a trilloinare before this. It's not like I am crying all the way to the poor house if CCP just unwinds me. I will remain one of the riches players in EVE. Sure, I would more like trillions, but I got many news articles, a 160 page thread or whatever, multiple blogs/news annoucements and the most hilarious graph to ever exist in the history of EVE play. Throw in the most ISK in kills/deaths records, and goddamn. I am pretty smug. But really. The true reward is to dunk on Stoffer. If there is one things goons love, it's trolling goons. Even Ex-goons. CCP gets press, we get our capital back, EVE gets another hilarious footnote in history. Everyone won here. We just won less than we woulda liked.
Can't quote this enough. . |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
164
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:40:00 -
[108] - Quote
There were non-monetary gains to be made that can never be revoked |
Damion Rayne
Lorentz Technology Group
100
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:40:00 -
[109] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Sometimes Emergent Gameplay means dunking so hard you break the backboard! I can't say we are happy about this decision, but we respect it. Being unwound is a good thing as it gets us our capital back, and at least shows CCP wanted to be fair here. I applaud that decision. Highest Kill Value ever in EVE? http://imgur.com/1fSsT
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
Every single one of you dirtbags needs a big giant BAN. Every..single..one. If you're Goonswarm, your only desire is to see people quit playing Eve, and basically destroy it. You are a threat and you should be treated as one. Anyone wearing the Goonswarm tags should be permanently banned from Eve Online. Teamwork.. Maturity.. Tactics.. www.tacticalgamer.com |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1902
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:41:00 -
[110] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. Insurance fraud was anything but Hypothetical. Those exact circumstance happened and was abused on a very large scale. If it's an exploit, why no rollback? I'm discussing this exploit not any one of a number of hypothetical past or future exploits. (or non-exploits) Fair enough. Insurance fraud just happened to hit both of your Xes in your IF X THEN CCP=Mad statement. In fact, Insurance Fraud occurred the exact same way that the FW exploit started (with the freighters full of minerals). The market fell >> The CCP value of minerals stayed higher than the market >> People committed blew up their ships to make tons of money. In this case it was LP, with insurance fraud it was ISK, and instead of having to pay for insurance, all you had to do was join FW. The furtherance of the exploit was due to the small size of the EvE market and the presence of totally useless, rare items.
Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
515
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:42:00 -
[111] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:Aryth wrote:Sometimes Emergent Gameplay means dunking so hard you break the backboard! I can't say we are happy about this decision, but we respect it. Being unwound is a good thing as it gets us our capital back, and at least shows CCP wanted to be fair here. I applaud that decision. Highest Kill Value ever in EVE? http://imgur.com/1fSsT I've said it before and I'll say it again, Every single one of you dirtbags needs a big giant BAN. Every..single..one. If you're Goonswarm, your only desire is to see people quit playing Eve, and basically destroy it. You are a threat and you should be treated as one. Anyone wearing the Goonswarm tags should be permanently banned from Eve Online.
Son, you mad. . |
Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
830
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:42:00 -
[112] - Quote
Aryth wrote:corestwo wrote:Gogela wrote:While I'm sure this is destined to be a goon-run threadnaught, I personally think CCP handled this perfectly. They could have gone extreme and seized all of their assets and isk and banned them, or they could have just ignored the problem (old CCP), but this explanation and the consequences seem very well balanced and *gasp*... fair.
Whoever was in charge of dealing with this... should be given more freedom to deal with things.
+1 You may not have noticed, but all five of us involved (or the ones posting, anyway) are satisfied with CCP's judgement. I mean, we'd prefer our trillions, but we're all capable market players...I'm sure we'll get there on our own soon enough. The other goons posting are posting because posting is what goons do. Not only that, but I was already a trillionaire before this. It's not like I am crying all the way to the poor house if CCP just unwinds me. I will remain one of the riches players in EVE. Sure, I would more like trillions, but I got many news articles, a 160 page thread or whatever, multiple blogs/news annoucements and the most hilarious graph to ever exist in the history of EVE play. Throw in the most ISK in kills/deaths records, and goddamn. I am pretty smug. But really. The true reward is to dunk on Stoffer. If there is one things goons love, it's trolling goons. Even Ex-goons. CCP gets press, we get our capital back, EVE gets another hilarious footnote in history. Everyone won here. We just won less than we woulda liked. Wow... frickin' goon... you actually have a really good attitude about this game.
|
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
164
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:43:00 -
[113] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:Aryth wrote:Sometimes Emergent Gameplay means dunking so hard you break the backboard! I can't say we are happy about this decision, but we respect it. Being unwound is a good thing as it gets us our capital back, and at least shows CCP wanted to be fair here. I applaud that decision. Highest Kill Value ever in EVE? http://imgur.com/1fSsT I've said it before and I'll say it again, Every single one of you dirtbags needs a big giant BAN. Every..single..one. If you're Goonswarm, your only desire is to see people quit playing Eve, and basically destroy it. You are a threat and you should be treated as one. Anyone wearing the Goonswarm tags should be permanently banned from Eve Online.
This is the non-monetary kind of reward I was talking about. |
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
255
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:44:00 -
[114] - Quote
The 5 players involved should be glad nothing serious happened to their accounts. Not reporting it for 2 weeks is unbelievable. On day one when they saw how crazy it was, it should have been reported On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton where the dripping patchouli was more than scent, It was a sun-á |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1902
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:44:00 -
[115] - Quote
Mme Pinkerton wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency. Inquiring minds want to know how you determine the "real value" of an item.
It's in the blog. There's the current cost you pay for an item and there's the rolling average of the item's value. LP gain was tied to the long term average cost which is calculated by us. By causing disparity in the two values, whether on purpose or if it happens naturally, you can be in a position where you can print LP (corrected :)) by just buying things and shooting yourself.
The destruction of items to harvest LP is the main issue here. The manipulation of the average cost in and of itself is not at this point in time considered problematic. It's merely how much that can be used to amplify the damage caused by the destruction. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Liam Mirren
553
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:45:00 -
[116] - Quote
Goon tears best tears. Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
781
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:47:00 -
[117] - Quote
this kind of market/LP payout/whatever anomalies should have been detected by CCP long before anyone admited the exploit.
this was basically a best case scenario, a small group of people creates an exceptional LP payout anomaly. If something changes by factor 1000 repeatedly every light should blink at the monitoring tools.
you are monitoring FW, aren't you? a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc. Varangon Tagma
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:48:00 -
[118] - Quote
While I can see CCP Sreegs did his best to deal with situation fairly I think he forgot something. In order to manipulate LP prices in faction store bunch of LP was invested in to system upgrades that strongly benefited Minmatar at the expense of Amarr side of FW. Given that now it was decided this LP was gained through exploit IMHO CCP should also remove system upgrades gained by those LP, assuming CCP can track which upgrades where bought with legitimate LP and which were acquired by exploit LP. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
464
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:48:00 -
[119] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Mme Pinkerton wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency. Inquiring minds want to know how you determine the "real value" of an item. It's in the blog. There's the current cost you pay for an item and there's the rolling average of the item's value. LP gain was tied to the long term average cost which is calculated by us. By causing disparity in the two values, whether on purpose or if it happens naturally, you can be in a position where you can print LP (corrected :)) by just buying things and shooting yourself. The destruction of items to harvest LP is the main issue here. The manipulation of the average cost in and of itself is not at this point in time considered problematic. It's merely how much that can be used to amplify the damage caused by the destruction.
I hope when you guys do the redesign, using it as a matter convertor is still possible. I felt it was the most interesting part of this mechanic in the long run. It will provide some creative ways to run manips on item prices as well as create artificial scarcity for items if you are willing to put ISK behind it.
If you think permageddon is bad, wait until you see what we can do with a matter converter. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
516
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:48:00 -
[120] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Not only that, but I was already a trillionaire before this. It's not like I am crying all the way to the poor house if CCP just unwinds me. I will remain one of the riches players in EVE. Sure, I would more like trillions, but I got many news articles, a 160 page thread or whatever, multiple blogs/news annoucements and the most hilarious graph to ever exist in the history of EVE play.
Throw in the most ISK in kills/deaths records, and goddamn. I am pretty smug.
But really. The true reward is to dunk on Stoffer. If there is one things goons love, it's trolling goons. Even Ex-goons.
CCP gets press, we get our capital back, EVE gets another hilarious footnote in history. Everyone won here. We just won less than we woulda liked.
Liam Mirren wrote:Goon tears best tears. Does not compute...
Bienator II wrote:this kind of market/LP payout/whatever anomalies should have been detected by CCP long before anyone admited the exploit.
this was basically a best case scenario, a small group of people creates an exceptional LP payout anomaly. If something changes by factor 1000 repeatedly every light should blink at the monitoring tools.
you are monitoring FW, aren't you? If they weren't before, they certainly are now. . |
|
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
166
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:50:00 -
[121] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Mme Pinkerton wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency. Inquiring minds want to know how you determine the "real value" of an item. It's in the blog. There's the current cost you pay for an item and there's the rolling average of the item's value. LP gain was tied to the long term average cost which is calculated by us. By causing disparity in the two values, whether on purpose or if it happens naturally, you can be in a position where you can print LP (corrected :)) by just buying things and shooting yourself. The destruction of items to harvest LP is the main issue here. The manipulation of the average cost in and of itself is not at this point in time considered problematic. It's merely how much that can be used to amplify the damage caused by the destruction. I hope when you guys do the redesign, using it as a matter convertor is still possible. I felt it was the most interesting part of this mechanic in the long run. It will provide some creative ways to run manips on item prices as well as create artificial scarcity for items if you are willing to put ISK behind it. If you think permageddon is bad, wait until you see what we can do with a matter converter.
This was unironically a better market correction tool than anything else CCP has tried. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:52:00 -
[122] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo.
Fair enough. I hope you're having a good long conversation about how to fix Forex markets to keep them from being manipulated.
It would be spectacular to see CCP be the first Gaming company win the Nobel Prize for Economics. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3771
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:55:00 -
[123] - Quote
By the way, if I were you I might fix the ibis price (141k last I checked). I can't think of a way to abuse it but given it's free, once someone does boy will it be hilarious. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
464
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:57:00 -
[124] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Mme Pinkerton wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency. Inquiring minds want to know how you determine the "real value" of an item. It's in the blog. There's the current cost you pay for an item and there's the rolling average of the item's value. LP gain was tied to the long term average cost which is calculated by us. By causing disparity in the two values, whether on purpose or if it happens naturally, you can be in a position where you can print LP (corrected :)) by just buying things and shooting yourself. The destruction of items to harvest LP is the main issue here. The manipulation of the average cost in and of itself is not at this point in time considered problematic. It's merely how much that can be used to amplify the damage caused by the destruction. I hope when you guys do the redesign, using it as a matter convertor is still possible. I felt it was the most interesting part of this mechanic in the long run. It will provide some creative ways to run manips on item prices as well as create artificial scarcity for items if you are willing to put ISK behind it. If you think permageddon is bad, wait until you see what we can do with a matter converter. This was unironically a better market correction tool than anything else CCP has tried.
The mechanic can be used for good. You can fix imbalances in the market that have existed for years from past oversights using this to cash into LP. It wouldn't be profitable, but it would provide liqudity and the ability for players to fix/manip markets if they are willing to take huge risks and capital hits. I am not saying this as a theoretical. I already have a plan and item in mind.
It would be a pretty cool mechanic going foward (after it's fixed of course) if it could still be used in this way. It opens up a lot of really fun market possbilities. |
Mme Pinkerton
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:57:00 -
[125] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Mme Pinkerton wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency. Inquiring minds want to know how you determine the "real value" of an item. It's in the blog. There's the current cost you pay for an item and there's the rolling average of the item's value. You are already mixing concepts of value.
You really want to tell me that the cost at which you have acquired an item determines its "real" value but in the same breath you tell me that the rolling average of past successful trades is a measure of value. What if I propose that the highest buy order is the true measure of value as that's the only dependable measure of how much other people value this item right now?
Anyways, I think your answer is a weak cop-out (in the best case a sign of your own confusion).
I think you should re-examine if you truly think that value is determined by any price because I suspect that you don't (because no matter which price you choose, it can always be manipulated - and you seem to assume that a "real value" which cannot be manipulated exists).
So tell me about your idea of market-independent value and I will probably tear it to pieces - after all there are good reasons for basically everyone (except for some neo-Marxists) giving up on (objective) value as a concept that exists independent of price at some point in the early 20th century. An IPO guide (David H'Levi) | Towards a Positive Argument For Investing (RAW23) | Freighter Operations 101 (Kazuo Ishiguro) | Dominion market analysis (Akita T)
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
464
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:59:00 -
[126] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo.
Fair enough. I hope you're having a good long conversation about how to fix Forex markets to keep them from being manipulated. It would be spectacular to see CCP be the first Gaming company win the Nobel Prize for Economics.
I pitched a possible solution. We spent days theorycrafting a fix that preserves the system without making it gameable to a degree you are profiting on the conversion. You might still profit on the market manip, but not the conversion itself. This might be an acceptable solution to CCP, who knows. I hope they don't gut it though. |
Haifisch Zahne
HZ Corp
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:01:00 -
[127] - Quote
I see only two reasons given by CCP Sreegs, speaking for CCP, why this "event" (Goon 4x4? GoonGate? Goon FW Crisis 2012?) has been classified as an exploit:
1) "Because of the volumes and disparity involved we've had to take action to fix this particular system."
2) "Because this was essentially a system where you could print LP, even if ISK was provided as an input, it is classified as an exploit."
But, 1) only speaks to the surprising SUCCESS of the Goons. It does not speak to it being an exploit. For example, that Bill Gates (and Microsoft) have made a giganormous fortune is not reason to say Microsoft Windows is an "exploit". (It is for other reasons.)
And, 2) contains an enormous IF clause: "even if ISK was provided as an input". The Goons did not buy an LP printing press, with ISK. This was not the "input" of ISK. They gamed the system, and it required purchases necessarily to function. Had they blown up stuff "from thin air", then, yes, they would have successfully printed LP.
CCP needs to explain WHY this classifies as an exploit, rather than an enormously successful method of multiplying an investment.
CCP has not done this. |
|
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
3953
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:01:00 -
[128] - Quote
ooo
|
|
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:02:00 -
[129] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:I see only two reasons given by CCP Sreegs, speaking for CCP, why this "event" (Goon 4x4? GoonGate? Goon FW Crisis 2012?) has been classified as an exploit:
1) "Because of the volumes and disparity involved we've had to take action to fix this particular system."
2) "Because this was essentially a system where you could print LP, even if ISK was provided as an input, it is classified as an exploit."
But, 1) only speaks to the surprising SUCCESS of the Goons. It does not speak to it being an exploit. For example, that Bill Gates (and Microsoft) have made a giganormous fortune is not reason to say Microsoft Windows is an "exploit". (It is for other reasons.)
And, 2) contains an enormous IF clause: "even if ISK was provided as an input". The Goons did not buy an LP printing press, with ISK. This was not the "input" of ISK. They gamed the system, and it required purchases necessarily to function. Had they blown up stuff "from thin air", then, yes, they would have successfully printed LP.
CCP needs to explain WHY this classifies as an exploit, rather than an enormously successful method of multiplying an investment.
CCP has not done this. And they never will. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
312
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:09:00 -
[130] - Quote
So would manipulating the price of a ship to receive large insurance payouts also be considered an exploit? Ex/ Atrons for 200m. |
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
772
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:10:00 -
[131] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:I see only two reasons given by CCP Sreegs, speaking for CCP, why this "event" (Goon 4x4? GoonGate? Goon FW Crisis 2012?) has been classified as an exploit:
1) "Because of the volumes and disparity involved we've had to take action to fix this particular system."
2) "Because this was essentially a system where you could print LP, even if ISK was provided as an input, it is classified as an exploit."
But, 1) only speaks to the surprising SUCCESS of the Goons. It does not speak to it being an exploit. For example, that Bill Gates (and Microsoft) have made a giganormous fortune is not reason to say Microsoft Windows is an "exploit". (It is for other reasons.)
And, 2) contains an enormous IF clause: "even if ISK was provided as an input". The Goons did not buy an LP printing press, with ISK. This was not the "input" of ISK. They gamed the system, and it required purchases necessarily to function. Had they blown up stuff "from thin air", then, yes, they would have successfully printed LP.
CCP needs to explain WHY this classifies as an exploit, rather than an enormously successful method of multiplying an investment.
CCP has not done this.
To those who have to ask, no answer will suffice. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
517
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:13:00 -
[132] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:So would manipulating the price of a ship to receive large insurance payouts also be considered an exploit? Ex/ Atrons for 200m. Insurance doesn't work that way.
e: To clarify, insurance prices are (I believe) based on mineral prices, probably in a fairly similar way as CCP arrives at the estimated price ingame. However, they update extremely slowly. The insurance payouts you're seeing now are based on mineral prices several months ago, which is why the insurance payout seems so low. . |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1206
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:22:00 -
[133] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:Every single one of you dirtbags needs a big giant BAN. Every..single..one. If you're Goonswarm, your only desire is to see people quit playing Eve, and basically destroy it. You are a threat and you should be treated as one. Anyone wearing the Goonswarm tags should be permanently banned from Eve Online.
lol a rogue goon |
Illectroculus Defined
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
61
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:26:00 -
[134] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
Every single one of you dirtbags needs a big giant BAN. Every..single..one. If you're Goonswarm, your only desire is to see people quit playing Eve, and basically destroy it. You are a threat and you should be treated as one. Anyone wearing the Goonswarm tags should be permanently banned from Eve Online.
Does that mean you're not interested in that video project collaboration any more? |
Alain Kinsella
120
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:36:00 -
[135] - Quote
Liam Mirren wrote:Goon tears best tears. Not seeing any yet, really. I probably have one of the longest-running grudges with them (their war inSL), and I have to admit this is ending on a decent note.
Slightly torn though, was expecting something different, but I like the proposed solution (so far) even better. Thanks Screegs, and good luck sorting the long-term problem.
I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
|
Haifisch Zahne
HZ Corp
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:36:00 -
[136] - Quote
Funny, I said this, and I got the "tinfoil hat" from you Goons.
Querns wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:What is the value of LP by itself? It's wholly dependent on the market. Earning LP doesn't actually generate you any money. Other players have to pay you in order for you to convert the currency to a meaningful state, unless you deal in a barter economy of skillbooks and starbase charters. I won't disagree that generating hilarious amounts of LP is probably not right, but classifying it as "printing money" is just patently false. Consider the (unlikely) situation in which CCP either hadn't noticed or didn't care about the FW forex actions. We would have generated infinite LP* (*note: probably no more than 2.1b at a time due to laffeaux signed 32-bit integer, and also it's not truly infinite because even the implants we manipulated had an isk cost to acquire, but that's just semantics.) Assuming that we were terrible at the game and were unable to show restraint in cashing out LP, prices for LP items would have steadily approached the isk cost of the items as LP value went to zero. At that point, you could hardly consider printing infinite LP to be "printing money" -- it's worthless!
|
Ziranda Hakuli
Relativity Holding Corp AAA Citizens
113
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:36:00 -
[137] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Zagdul wrote:Shouldn't they also retain LP equivalent to 2 weeks worth of 'normal' game play?
They were playing, they did let you know and they did participate in Faction Warfare. I really don't want to discuss actions against individual players any more than was detailed in the blog for informational purposes. Sorry duder.
Sreegs i aplogize ahead for this one man. I know you cannot discuss what disciplinary actions are done to player XYZ nd so on but many will be disappointed if there are no Bannings. The group knew; they got their Egg heads together played with the formula and went hey you know you can do this and so a group went and did exactly how the egg heads said and exploited it and then said something about it.
they did toss you under the bus not once but multiple times over this issue alone. A lot of folks feel they should be banned. if it was any other group they would have been banned in a blink of an eye and then work on the investigation. Many of us have talked about this and the general concensus is that your doing the father thing Shaking the finger at them and speaking in a stern voice "Do not do that again or else" Many have seen this and many want what the rules say to happen to them.
Sorry Sreegs had to say my peice on this and hope you do the right thing.
Peace |
Haifisch Zahne
HZ Corp
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:38:00 -
[138] - Quote
Sad.
Vincent Athena wrote:Haifisch Zahne wrote:I see only two reasons given by CCP Sreegs, speaking for CCP, why this "event" (Goon 4x4? GoonGate? Goon FW Crisis 2012?) has been classified as an exploit:
1) "Because of the volumes and disparity involved we've had to take action to fix this particular system."
2) "Because this was essentially a system where you could print LP, even if ISK was provided as an input, it is classified as an exploit."
But, 1) only speaks to the surprising SUCCESS of the Goons. It does not speak to it being an exploit. For example, that Bill Gates (and Microsoft) have made a giganormous fortune is not reason to say Microsoft Windows is an "exploit". (It is for other reasons.)
And, 2) contains an enormous IF clause: "even if ISK was provided as an input". The Goons did not buy an LP printing press, with ISK. This was not the "input" of ISK. They gamed the system, and it required purchases necessarily to function. Had they blown up stuff "from thin air", then, yes, they would have successfully printed LP.
CCP needs to explain WHY this classifies as an exploit, rather than an enormously successful method of multiplying an investment.
CCP has not done this. To those who have to ask, no answer will suffice.
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:40:00 -
[139] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:Funny, I said this, and I got the "tinfoil hat" from you Goons. Querns wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:What is the value of LP by itself? It's wholly dependent on the market. Earning LP doesn't actually generate you any money. Other players have to pay you in order for you to convert the currency to a meaningful state, unless you deal in a barter economy of skillbooks and starbase charters. I won't disagree that generating hilarious amounts of LP is probably not right, but classifying it as "printing money" is just patently false. Consider the (unlikely) situation in which CCP either hadn't noticed or didn't care about the FW forex actions. We would have generated infinite LP* (*note: probably no more than 2.1b at a time due to laffeaux signed 32-bit integer, and also it's not truly infinite because even the implants we manipulated had an isk cost to acquire, but that's just semantics.) Assuming that we were terrible at the game and were unable to show restraint in cashing out LP, prices for LP items would have steadily approached the isk cost of the items as LP value went to zero. At that point, you could hardly consider printing infinite LP to be "printing money" -- it's worthless!
That's not really "tinfoil". Everything from the LP store ultimately has an isk cost, and it is thus theoretically possible to drive it all down to the point where it is no longer profitable. Note that this already happens in certain circumstances - because FW pilots pay twice normal at tier 2, or 4x normal at tier 1 ("normal" is at tier 3 and is equal to what regular mission runners pay), implants are actually a negative isk/LP value at those levels. You lose money buying them, a considerable amount of it, in fact. . |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
465
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:42:00 -
[140] - Quote
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Zagdul wrote:Shouldn't they also retain LP equivalent to 2 weeks worth of 'normal' game play?
They were playing, they did let you know and they did participate in Faction Warfare. I really don't want to discuss actions against individual players any more than was detailed in the blog for informational purposes. Sorry duder. Sreegs i aplogize ahead for this one man. I know you cannot discuss what disciplinary actions are done to player XYZ nd so on but many will be disappointed if there are no Bannings. The group knew; they got their Egg heads together played with the formula and went hey you know you can do this and so a group went and did exactly how the egg heads said and exploited it and then said something about it. they did toss you under the bus not once but multiple times over this issue alone. A lot of folks feel they should be banned. if it was any other group they would have been banned in a blink of an eye and then work on the investigation. Many of us have talked about this and the general concensus is that your doing the father thing Shaking the finger at them and speaking in a stern voice "Do not do that again or else" Many have seen this and many want what the rules say to happen to them. Sorry Sreegs had to say my peice on this and hope you do the right thing. Peace
It appears neither of us gets the ending we wanted then. |
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:43:00 -
[141] - Quote
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Zagdul wrote:Shouldn't they also retain LP equivalent to 2 weeks worth of 'normal' game play?
They were playing, they did let you know and they did participate in Faction Warfare. I really don't want to discuss actions against individual players any more than was detailed in the blog for informational purposes. Sorry duder. Sreegs i aplogize ahead for this one man. I know you cannot discuss what disciplinary actions are done to player XYZ nd so on but many will be disappointed if there are no Bannings. The group knew; they got their Egg heads together played with the formula and went hey you know you can do this and so a group went and did exactly how the egg heads said and exploited it and then said something about it. they did toss you under the bus not once but multiple times over this issue alone. A lot of folks feel they should be banned. if it was any other group they would have been banned in a blink of an eye and then work on the investigation. Many of us have talked about this and the general concensus is that your doing the father thing Shaking the finger at them and speaking in a stern voice "Do not do that again or else" Many have seen this and many want what the rules say to happen to them. Sorry Sreegs had to say my peice on this and hope you do the right thing. Peace You get a cookie for being the first "CCP=goons" poster in the thread. . |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
168
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:44:00 -
[142] - Quote
Sreegs if the CCP Dev we deserve |
None ofthe Above
282
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:48:00 -
[143] - Quote
Mechaet wrote:Haifisch Zahne wrote:I see only two reasons given by CCP Sreegs, speaking for CCP, why this "event" (Goon 4x4? GoonGate? Goon FW Crisis 2012?) has been classified as an exploit:
1) "Because of the volumes and disparity involved we've had to take action to fix this particular system."
2) "Because this was essentially a system where you could print LP, even if ISK was provided as an input, it is classified as an exploit."
But, 1) only speaks to the surprising SUCCESS of the Goons. It does not speak to it being an exploit. For example, that Bill Gates (and Microsoft) have made a giganormous fortune is not reason to say Microsoft Windows is an "exploit". (It is for other reasons.)
And, 2) contains an enormous IF clause: "even if ISK was provided as an input". The Goons did not buy an LP printing press, with ISK. This was not the "input" of ISK. They gamed the system, and it required purchases necessarily to function. Had they blown up stuff "from thin air", then, yes, they would have successfully printed LP.
CCP needs to explain WHY this classifies as an exploit, rather than an enormously successful method of multiplying an investment.
CCP has not done this. And they never will.
Its been explained over and over again and its doubtful that saying it one more time would influence those who would seem to lack one or more of: the patience to read it, will to accept it, or the capacity to understand it.
Perhaps it would suffice for you that those most effected are willing to accept the ruling?
Honestly I think most folk think they got off a little light.
|
Peter Tjordenskiold
19
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:51:00 -
[144] - Quote
An exploit is an error in the implementation of a mechanic. But this wasn't the case.
When CCP is classifiy using mechanics for the own advantage as exploit, this is going bad for the sandbox principle. We are evil, harsh and dark in our attitudes. When CCP wishes a game for good guys in pink socks announce it, but don't think of us, we are willing customers paying for a nice game. |
Jonah Gravenstein
544
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:54:00 -
[145] - Quote
It'd be interesting to see a Devblog by CCP Dr.EyjoG on what he makes of it, got to be an economists dream/mightmare to see things like that pulled off. War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
Sephira Galamore
Nemesis Holdings Corp Luna Sanguinem
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:55:00 -
[146] - Quote
I just had an idea...
Currently (or well, before the fix) the prices was a rolling average across all transactions of the whole cluster. How about we give transaction a different weight, depending on, for example: - The less a single individual player has traded an item within the last day, the higher a transaction is weight - The more individual players have been involved in trade at the system/station of the transaction within the last hour/day, the higher its weight
I discourage setting it based on current trade hubs / main regions, as that would interfere with the player-driven aspect of the forming of these hubs and the market in general. On the other hand, dynamically defining it on amount of items traded or isk exchanged would make it highly manipulable by few with huge capital.
-> Hence above idea. There may be many goons, but not enough to outtrade us "pubbies" without creating an actual and valid market.
Aryth, corestwo or someone else with deeper insight.. am I making sense?^^ |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1917
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:01:00 -
[147] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:I see only two reasons given by CCP Sreegs, speaking for CCP, why this "event" (Goon 4x4? GoonGate? Goon FW Crisis 2012?) has been classified as an exploit:
1) "Because of the volumes and disparity involved we've had to take action to fix this particular system."
2) "Because this was essentially a system where you could print LP, even if ISK was provided as an input, it is classified as an exploit."
But, 1) only speaks to the surprising SUCCESS of the Goons. It does not speak to it being an exploit. For example, that Bill Gates (and Microsoft) have made a giganormous fortune is not reason to say Microsoft Windows is an "exploit". (It is for other reasons.)
And, 2) contains an enormous IF clause: "even if ISK was provided as an input". The Goons did not buy an LP printing press, with ISK. This was not the "input" of ISK. They gamed the system, and it required purchases necessarily to function. Had they blown up stuff "from thin air", then, yes, they would have successfully printed LP.
CCP needs to explain WHY this classifies as an exploit, rather than an enormously successful method of multiplying an investment.
CCP has not done this.
We classified it as an exploit and gave the explanation. That you were not satisfied with that explanation is unfortunate but it's the only one we're giving. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
254
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:02:00 -
[148] - Quote
So much for your sandbox.
CCP designed and published that which was live on TQ. Live with it.
The "rest of us" have had to live with the Tech imbalance for ~30 months now, after all. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1917
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:03:00 -
[149] - Quote
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Zagdul wrote:Shouldn't they also retain LP equivalent to 2 weeks worth of 'normal' game play?
They were playing, they did let you know and they did participate in Faction Warfare. I really don't want to discuss actions against individual players any more than was detailed in the blog for informational purposes. Sorry duder. Sreegs i aplogize ahead for this one man. I know you cannot discuss what disciplinary actions are done to player XYZ nd so on but many will be disappointed if there are no Bannings. The group knew; they got their Egg heads together played with the formula and went hey you know you can do this and so a group went and did exactly how the egg heads said and exploited it and then said something about it. they did toss you under the bus not once but multiple times over this issue alone. A lot of folks feel they should be banned. if it was any other group they would have been banned in a blink of an eye and then work on the investigation. Many of us have talked about this and the general concensus is that your doing the father thing Shaking the finger at them and speaking in a stern voice "Do not do that again or else" Many have seen this and many want what the rules say to happen to them. Sorry Sreegs had to say my peice on this and hope you do the right thing. Peace
We feel we did the right thing and it's unfortunate that we perhaps disagree in the severity of the response but unfortunately that's going to happen every time we make any decision. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
465
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:04:00 -
[150] - Quote
Sephira Galamore wrote:I just had an idea...
Currently (or well, before the fix) the average prices were defined by a rolling average across all transactions of the whole cluster.
How about we give transactions a different weight, depending on, for example: - The less a single individual player has traded an item within the last day, the higher a transaction containing this item is weight or: - The more individual players have been involved in trade at the system/station of the transaction within the last hour/day, the higher its weight
I discourage setting it based on current trade hubs / main regions, as that would interfere with the player-driven aspect of the forming of these hubs and the market in general. On the other hand, dynamically defining it on amount of items traded or isk exchanged would make it highly manipulable by few with huge capital.
-> Hence above idea. There may be many goons (or members of any given large block), but not enough to outtrade us "pubbies" without creating an actual and valid market.
Aryth, corestwo or someone else with deeper insight.. am I making sense?^^
Yes, I see where you are going with it, but it still puts too much power into an small groups hands. Alts are easy to farm, we used 5 regions in our mani as is, 20 would not have been a big deal. Mass farming and creating "hubs" would not have been a big deal. CCP was already using EVE wide values, not a specific region.
The trick is, many items in EVE have no volume. It only takes manipulating one item in this scenerio.
The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this. |
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:08:00 -
[151] - Quote
Sephira Galamore wrote:I just had an idea...
Currently (or well, before the fix) the average prices were defined by a rolling average across all transactions of the whole cluster.
How about we give transactions a different weight, depending on, for example: - The less a single individual player has traded an item within the last day, the higher a transaction containing this item is weight or: - The more individual players have been involved in trade at the system/station of the transaction within the last hour/day, the higher its weight
I discourage setting it based on current trade hubs / main regions, as that would interfere with the player-driven aspect of the forming of these hubs and the market in general. On the other hand, dynamically defining it on amount of items traded or isk exchanged would make it highly manipulable by few with huge capital.
-> Hence above idea. There may be many goons (or members of any given large block), but not enough to outtrade us "pubbies" without creating an actual and valid market.
Aryth, corestwo or someone else with deeper insight.. am I making sense?^^
The main flaw that I see with this idea is that it would be difficult to set the number of individual trades or players involved in such a way as to prevent price games, but not exclude items that are genuinely traded, but in low volumes, such as many officer items. Set that threshold low enough and, as Aryth said, you just get around it with multiple alts. Sure they wouldn't have standings and such to minimize fees, but if you're looking at a method of making trillions of isk, do you care?
I'll also note that as the price estimate is intended to serve as an estimate of market price, excluding hubs and main regions is a poor idea no matter how it's implemented, because those hubs and main regions are the largest markets. . |
Lindsey Ocelot
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:12:00 -
[152] - Quote
So people can openly exploit, then two weeks later report and all is well? |
Sega Phoenix
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:12:00 -
[153] - Quote
First my government does something I do not agree with, then CCP roflstomps the sandbox in the interest of "fairnesss". I'm having a bad day =( |
0oO0oOoOo0o
Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:13:00 -
[154] - Quote
You are too soft, I'd ban 'em all ! |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
465
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:16:00 -
[155] - Quote
Sega Phoenix wrote:First my government does something I do not agree with, then CCP roflstomps the sandbox in the interest of "fairnesss". I'm having a bad day =(
We just lost 5T of profits. Our day is pretty damn bad. |
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:16:00 -
[156] - Quote
i am beginning to understand why expansions in eve are free.......maybe ccp will learn from this...... |
Alain Kinsella
120
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:16:00 -
[157] - Quote
Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this.
You're basically asking them to work it on a 'basket' or 'item class' level, which I assume would average against the number of items in that class.
I do like that idea, a lot, and as long as the baskets are sufficiently large (i.e. mineral basket, P1 basket, etc) there will be far too much 'white noise' by the average Market user like myself. Its still possible (with enough capital) to do it, but you'll start to have trend-watchers amplifying the change and profiting outside the scheme.
I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
|
Lindsey Ocelot
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:18:00 -
[158] - Quote
......oops |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:19:00 -
[159] - Quote
Alain Kinsella wrote:Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this. You're basically asking them to work it on a 'basket' or 'item class' level, which I assume would average against the number of items in that class. I do like that idea, a lot, and as long as the baskets are sufficiently large (i.e. mineral basket, P1 basket, etc) there will be far too much 'white noise' by the average Market user like myself. Its still possible (with enough capital) to do it, but you'll start to have trend-watchers amplifying the change and profiting outside the scheme.
One step further, actually. The basket would not merely average items, but cut off obvious outliers (such as a 1% implant spiking to 68.7 million in value). It wouldn't work for everything, obviously - minerals are too varied in price to apply it uniformly, for example, but then again minerals are too large a market to feasibly game the price on anyway - but it would probably do a good job of mitigating attempted manipulations in items that are actual targets for this sort of thing. . |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
465
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:20:00 -
[160] - Quote
Alain Kinsella wrote:Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this. You're basically asking them to work it on a 'basket' or 'item class' level, which I assume would average against the number of items in that class. I do like that idea, a lot, and as long as the baskets are sufficiently large (i.e. mineral basket, P1 basket, etc) there will be far too much 'white noise' by the average Market user like myself. Its still possible (with enough capital) to do it, but you'll start to have trend-watchers amplifying the change and profiting outside the scheme.
You need a 4.5 multiplier. So that means the amount of ISK required to even attempt such a thing, while holding it there for a price update, against all of EVE might make the best content ever. As one group of guys wage a price war with all of EVE, while CCP watches and laughs watches them get burned to the ground by turning off the updater for a bit.
It's a super elegant solution, and is probably easy to code for them. But yep, they just need to get the baskets to be "big" and it's fixed. |
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:23:00 -
[161] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Alain Kinsella wrote:Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this. You're basically asking them to work it on a 'basket' or 'item class' level, which I assume would average against the number of items in that class. I do like that idea, a lot, and as long as the baskets are sufficiently large (i.e. mineral basket, P1 basket, etc) there will be far too much 'white noise' by the average Market user like myself. Its still possible (with enough capital) to do it, but you'll start to have trend-watchers amplifying the change and profiting outside the scheme. You need a 4.5 multiplier. So that means the amount of ISK required to even attempt such a thing, while holding it there for a price update, against all of EVE might make the best content ever. As one group of guys wage a price war with all of EVE, while CCP watches and laughs watches them get burned to the ground by turning off the updater for a bit. It's a super elegant solution, and is probably easy to code for them. But yep, they just need to get the baskets to be "big" and it's fixed.
And 4.5x is the worst case, which is "Can buy the seed item from the LP store and also have high warzone control." It rapidly becomes untenable if the items aren't in the LP store, or if your faction of choice has a lower tier. . |
Sephira Galamore
Nemesis Holdings Corp Luna Sanguinem
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:31:00 -
[162] - Quote
Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this. Hmm... should this group average be used for the est. value of each element of this group (a) or as a means to normalize the indivual averages (b)?
I assume (b), because, in case of (a), there are many groups e.g. Sleeper salvage that have huge differences within the group.
But with (b) how will you account for market shifts due to expansions etc? Parts of a group could suddenly become more valuable, not for market manipulation but for naturally increased need.
Is there a (c) that I missed?
//Edit: oh, you got into details later, let me read that up. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
465
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:33:00 -
[163] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Aryth wrote:Alain Kinsella wrote:Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this. You're basically asking them to work it on a 'basket' or 'item class' level, which I assume would average against the number of items in that class. I do like that idea, a lot, and as long as the baskets are sufficiently large (i.e. mineral basket, P1 basket, etc) there will be far too much 'white noise' by the average Market user like myself. Its still possible (with enough capital) to do it, but you'll start to have trend-watchers amplifying the change and profiting outside the scheme. You need a 4.5 multiplier. So that means the amount of ISK required to even attempt such a thing, while holding it there for a price update, against all of EVE might make the best content ever. As one group of guys wage a price war with all of EVE, while CCP watches and laughs watches them get burned to the ground by turning off the updater for a bit. It's a super elegant solution, and is probably easy to code for them. But yep, they just need to get the baskets to be "big" and it's fixed. And 4.5x is the worst case, which is "Can buy the seed item from the LP store and also have high warzone control." The required disparity between estimated price and price at which you can buy or build the item becomes much larger if you can't double it over by buying it and blowing it up again, or if they don't have a high tier of warzone control, or both.
If CCP pays careful attention to keeping LP store items, very cost controlled, this very quickly isn't doable anymore. There is a reason we picked LP store items do manip. They made this the lowest multiplier. You are already having to sink ******** amounts of ISK/Captail into this, even what we did was on a scale never seen before in EVE. For any manip period I believe.
As the others have pointed out in jabber (we talked about this a while ago) Anything from a BPO/BPC should be calculated by taking input costs at perfect research. Still across classes. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:38:00 -
[164] - Quote
Sephira Galamore wrote:Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this. Hmm... should this group average be used for the est. value of each element of this group (a) or as a means to normalize the indivual averages (b)? I assume (b), because, in case of (a), there are many groups e.g. Sleeper salvage that have huge differences within the group. But with (b) how will you account for market shifts due to expansions etc? Parts of a group could suddenly become more valuable, not for market manipulation but for naturally increased need. Is there a (c) that I missed? //Edit: oh, you got into details later, let me read that up.
Certain disparities within a group are a given, yes, but to some degree they are corrected for by the /10000 modifier in the formula. And, beyond that, the price disparity required when you can't buy an LP store item and blow it up again is large (I'll decline to say how large) even at tier 4, and increases by a factor of 4 each tier the faction loses.
Also as aryth noted, anything player produced can just calculate its price based on input cost. . |
Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
168
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:41:00 -
[165] - Quote
From my perspective as a player this was in no way an exploit. The system seems to have worked exactly as it was designed to work, it just contained a loophole big enough to drive 5 trillion through.
Given that the FW design is too fragile to allow for the staggering amount of LP it generated I would consider the removal of LP from the relevant accounts to be a fair solution after the loophole was closed.
But exploit? Nah.
I'm actually kind of curious why this has been something CCP Sreegs have dealt with. I would have thought this was a game design issue from start to finish. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
254
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:49:00 -
[166] - Quote
Dalilus wrote:i am beginning to understand why expansions in eve are free.......maybe ccp will learn from this...... Nothing in EVE is free.
We pay for our expansions in installments, whether they are monthly or one of the other payment frequencies chosen.
Furthermore, some of CCP's customers provide free stress / load, design and functionality testing via the Mass testing sessions and feedback periods on Sisi. That is an enormous cost savings to CCP and could also be looked at yet another way in which CCP's clients pay into their services and enable these "free" expansions.
TBH, EVE is a fairly expensive MMO, so don't kid yourself about all of the stuff that CCP is just throwing away for "free." 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Abulurd Boniface
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:50:00 -
[167] - Quote
The graph does not show the value of the Y-axis, which makes it as useful as the given word of the CEO of Landsbanki.
I still tip my hat at the ingenuity of the people who found this particular caper. Deep respect to you.
I feel that the player should not be the one making the distinction between what is functionality and what is an exploit. Basically they used designer-produced content to their best advantage. They -only- used the interface as it was presented to everyone else in the game. Everybody who did their homework could have done the same thing. For me that means they are walking on the extreme razor's edge of the point where they start doing illegal stuff. But they're not quite there yet.
On the other hand, I can understand CCP's point of view, because this puppy was drawing blood, to the point of breaking the game. From the perspective of good stewardship of the environment, they just can't let that slide by.
I'm very happy that it all ended in amiable fashion, with the reset, so that the parties can take a bow, congratulate one party on their superb mastery of the environment, while the other is absolutely doing the right thing in taking the lesson in stride.
And because we are all adults here, we get to appreciate what a grandiose place this is and enjoy each other's company even more.
It is a privilege to share this experience with you fine people. |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:56:00 -
[168] - Quote
This is very funny to hear how CCP handled this. CCP admits that it was an exploit but the justice handed out is a joke. If this was 5 people from a corporation other than the Goons, they would have had a ban handed out. I guess having that many subscriptions can bend the mighty CCP.
Giving the one goon who snitched (after being part of the 2 week exploit) an award - while that is one giant cherry on top of the sundae that has been thrown in CCP's face.
CCP doing stuff like this shows they have not changed much. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:00:00 -
[169] - Quote
Ravcharas wrote:From my perspective as a player this was in no way an exploit. The system seems to have worked exactly as it was designed to work, it just contained a loophole big enough to drive 5 trillion through.
Given that the FW design is too fragile to allow for the staggering amount of LP it generated I would consider the removal of LP from the relevant accounts to be a fair solution after the loophole was closed.
But exploit? Nah.
I'm actually kind of curious why this has been something CCP Sreegs have dealt with. I would have thought this was a game design issue from start to finish.
Presumably because he knows how to follow the ISK. That is what he does to catch RMT. He probably also wanted to cavity search us too. You don't pop up on a forum and shout 5T without bending over for a good probing. |
Abulurd Boniface
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:03:00 -
[170] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Dalilus wrote:i am beginning to understand why expansions in eve are free.......maybe ccp will learn from this...... Nothing in EVE is free. We pay for our expansions in installments, whether they are monthly or one of the other payment frequencies chosen. Furthermore, some of CCP's customers opt to provide stress / load, design and functionality testing services via the Mass testing sessions and feedback periods on Sisi. That is an enormous cost savings to CCP and could also be looked at yet another way in which CCP's clients pay into their services and enable these "free" expansions. TBH, EVE is a fairly expensive MMO, so don't kid yourself about all of the stuff that CCP is just throwing away for "free."
I suspect someone is suffering from an ailment at the extreme end of the digestive tract here.
EVE is extremely affordable. The environment you get is a piece of engineering that boggles the mind and that is at the bleeding edge of technology. -And- you get to do crazy stuff like this which, when it is not deemed an exploit, a position that I can support in this case, stands if it doesn't break the ephemeral balance between 'sure, we'll accept this' and 'sorry guys, we can't let you do that.'
If the 5 guys who did this tried that in any other MMOG, their account would have been permabanned without any ifs, buts or maybes. CCP has acknowledged the genius of finding this weakness and provided a measured response. This is elite leadership. Show me any other place where it would have been handled like that.
We get to play in a superb environment, we are spoiled rotten by continuous, detailed and measured communication from the designers and the tapestry of third-party applications built and maintained by players is a refined quilt of beauty and enthusiasm.
It kills me to see people whining incessantly over the pittance they are charged for the privilege of joining this magnificent universe, when they know full well that you can't even get a decent buzz at the bar going for that price on a single evening. |
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:03:00 -
[171] - Quote
Abulurd Boniface wrote:The graph does not show the value of the Y-axis, which makes it as useful as the given word of the CEO of Landsbanki.
I still tip my hat at the ingenuity of the people who found this particular caper. Deep respect to you.
I feel that the player should not be the one making the distinction between what is functionality and what is an exploit. Basically they used designer-produced content to their best advantage. They -only- used the interface as it was presented to everyone else in the game. Everybody who did their homework could have done the same thing. For me that means they are walking on the extreme razor's edge of the point where they start doing illegal stuff. But they're not quite there yet.
On the other hand, I can understand CCP's point of view, because this puppy was drawing blood, to the point of breaking the game. From the perspective of good stewardship of the environment, they just can't let that slide by.
I'm very happy that it all ended in amiable fashion, with the reset, so that the parties can take a bow, congratulate one party on their superb mastery of the environment, while the other is absolutely doing the right thing in taking the lesson in stride.
And because we are all adults here, we get to appreciate what a grandiose place this is and enjoy each other's company even more.
It is a privilege to share this experience with you fine people.
This is for the most part how I see it too.
CCP decided that this one was so close to the line, it was the line. At the line you don't get banned, or punished, you get made whole, but you get chest bumped back.
Over the line you get insta banned. So in effect they are saying, the line is right about here. It's a grey area, I obviously don't agree the line is right here, but it's their game. I will just keep helping to shape the limits of it. |
Kern Hotha
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:05:00 -
[172] - Quote
Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes Middle age is when your broad mind and narrow waist begin to change places. -E. Joseph Cossman |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
148
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:08:00 -
[173] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
Huh. Sounds like PvE. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:13:00 -
[174] - Quote
Mechael wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item. Huh. Sounds like PvE. That's what I was alluding to in my earlier post. Converting one item (Quake L) into isk by using a built-in item->isk converter (rat bounties) at a greater rate than it cost me to acquire the original item.
I do this all day. I must be a long-running exploiter. |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:16:00 -
[175] - Quote
Mechaet wrote:Mechael wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item. Huh. Sounds like PvE. That's what I was alluding to in my earlier post. Converting one item (Quake L) into isk by using a built-in item->isk converter (rat bounties) at a greater rate than it cost me to acquire the original item. I do this all day. I must be a long-running exploiter.
Well rat yourself out and get an award |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:16:00 -
[176] - Quote
Quote: I think I explained in terms of exploitation where the issue was (BLOWING UP SHIPS TO MAKE MAGIC STUFF APPEAR) and I'm not really going to get involved in a philosophical debate about what "value" means. I'm a security guy not the philosophy or economics guy. I'm sure they'd love to have such a discourse. :)
Ban all PvE'ers. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:16:00 -
[177] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote:Mechaet wrote:Mechael wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item. Huh. Sounds like PvE. That's what I was alluding to in my earlier post. Converting one item (Quake L) into isk by using a built-in item->isk converter (rat bounties) at a greater rate than it cost me to acquire the original item. I do this all day. I must be a long-running exploiter. Well rat yourself out and get an award Fantastic idea. Heading over to the site now. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:21:00 -
[178] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo.
Fair enough. I hope you're having a good long conversation about how to fix Forex markets to keep them from being manipulated. It would be spectacular to see CCP be the first Gaming company win the Nobel Prize for Economics. I pitched a possible solution. We spent days theorycrafting a fix that preserves the system without making it gameable to a degree you are profiting on the conversion. You might still profit on the market manip, but not the conversion itself. This might be an acceptable solution to CCP, who knows. I hope they don't gut it though.
This sounds really interesting. Implemented or not, I hope that you publish your fix.
And I think limiting the profit to the market manip is the best CCP can hope for with Forex. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1921
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:24:00 -
[179] - Quote
Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes
Hi Capsuleer Kern Hotha, you may have missed the bit where we pointed out that these are group decisions. I'm pleased you feel it necessary to question my integrity but unfortunately for you in this case your conspiratorial scenario has no grounding in reality. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
834
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:28:00 -
[180] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote:This is very funny to hear how CCP handled this. CCP admits that it was an exploit but the justice handed out is a joke. If this was 5 people from a corporation other than the Goons, they would have had a ban handed out. I guess having that many subscriptions can bend the mighty CCP.
Giving the one goon who snitched (after being part of the 2 week exploit) an award - while that is one giant cherry on top of the sundae that has been thrown in CCP's face.
CCP doing stuff like this shows they have not changed much.
The time and resources spent to roll-back these 5 players is absurd - these are 5 really important players to CCP. I'm glad you aren't in charge of anything. Nothing is ever black and white. A good leader understands the difference between someone being deliberately malicious (pro RMTers, game hackers, account thieves, etc...) and someone being creative and indirectly malicious with more or less benign intent, and that these actions and motivators carry with them a kaleidoscope of possible appropriate punitive actions. This game is supposed to be "fun" and with that a certain degree of levity and forgiveness serves the mighty overlords at CCP well. If you just dish out harsh black and white "justice" and bring the hammer down every time, your people not only won't work well for you, but will actively sabotage you. This apply to any business or war. There's a time for executions and a time for 24 hours in a detox cell, is what I'm trying to say.
That said, I still say the way CCP handled the guys who blew up the Cockroach and looted an Enigma was bunk. If I looted a unique ship like that and CCP took it away I'd cry like a 5yo girl who got man-punched in the face.
|
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:29:00 -
[181] - Quote
Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes Believe me when I say that there are more than few goons who have known Sreegs' tender touch (along with many other pilots from many other corps and alliances, nullsec & otherwise, of course), and they definitely would not say that they got off lightly.
Different scenarios, but deciding that sreegs goes lightly on goons because of this one case is really quite laughable. . |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:30:00 -
[182] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Aryth wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo.
Fair enough. I hope you're having a good long conversation about how to fix Forex markets to keep them from being manipulated. It would be spectacular to see CCP be the first Gaming company win the Nobel Prize for Economics. I pitched a possible solution. We spent days theorycrafting a fix that preserves the system without making it gameable to a degree you are profiting on the conversion. You might still profit on the market manip, but not the conversion itself. This might be an acceptable solution to CCP, who knows. I hope they don't gut it though. This sounds really interesting. Implemented or not, I hope that you publish your fix. And I think limiting the profit to the market manip is the best CCP can hope for with Forex.
I think it's something we should all hope for. Introducing an entirely new game mechanic that would let you combine manip+forex is quite interesting. I hope they don't completely kill it off. |
Zastrow
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:32:00 -
[183] - Quote
WHO'S READY FOR SOME EMERGENT GAMEPLAY???
http://i.imgur.com/vCVlM.jpg |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3772
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:33:00 -
[184] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: I think I explained in terms of exploitation where the issue was (BLOWING UP SHIPS TO MAKE MAGIC STUFF APPEAR) and I'm not really going to get involved in a philosophical debate about what "value" means. I'm a security guy not the philosophy or economics guy. I'm sure they'd love to have such a discourse. :)
Make them come have this discussion tia |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
53
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:38:00 -
[185] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes Hi Capsuleer Kern Hotha, you may have missed the bit where we pointed out that these are group decisions. I'm pleased you feel it necessary to question my integrity but unfortunately for you in this case your conspiratorial scenario has no grounding in reality.
It's really too bad that this event came to light in the middle of Reynolds having a big coupon drive. But sometimes the timing of these things can't be helped. [sigh]
Anyway, I think that it's clear that we all love conspiracy theories, and the less grounded they are in reality, the better. In this case we have two wonderful ones; the Sreegs is a Goon protecting the Goons, and the Sreegs is a meanie who hates sandboxes.
TBH, I was halfway into the second camp before the devblog came out, and now your actions place you right in the middle. If you were protecting the Goons, you'd have let it stand and simply had the problem fixed. Were you being a big meanie, you would have banned them or at leas not refunded the initial investment.
I think a case could be (and has been, ad nauseam) made for any of these actions, and I think that the decision you (the team you represent) reached is, on reflection, probably the healthiest for the game*.
It's like the old saying about striking a deal. The best deals are struck where nobody's happy.
*Even though it's not totally consistent with previous decisions in similar cases. "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
(Oh, and Aryth and friends, next time keep these types of proceeds as separate from your other stuff as possible. It's probably polite to make investigations as easy as possible on Sreegs. ) -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:38:00 -
[186] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes Hi Capsuleer Kern Hotha, you may have missed the bit where we pointed out that these are group decisions. I'm pleased you feel it necessary to question my integrity but unfortunately for you in this case your conspiratorial scenario has no grounding in reality.
Giving them the "kids' glove' treatment is really fair? Do what usually happens to exploits - lock their accts and make them file a petition. That way they can go thru the normal channel of the petition like others have too. I bet having to wait for the petition to be looked at, the back and forth msgs, decision making, well that would be a fairier way of handling this.
Instead you do the work for them, wasting time and resources that could be spent on other paying subscribers.
Is doing this for them really fair to other subscribers CCP Sreegs? |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:43:00 -
[187] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote:Instead you do the work for them, wasting time and resources that could be spent on other paying subscribers.
fyi
this sort of **** is Darius "CCP 'Jersey' Sreegs" Johnson's job
they literally hire him to deal with this sort of ****
he is not somehow sucking work away from other developers or gms like some kind of effort hungry vampire
this is his job
|
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:44:00 -
[188] - Quote
Querns wrote:Dealth Striker wrote:Instead you do the work for them, wasting time and resources that could be spent on other paying subscribers. fyi this sort of **** is Darius "CCP 'Jersey' Sreegs" Johnson's job they literally hire him to deal with this sort of **** he is not somehow sucking work away from other developers or gms like some kind of effort hungry vampire this is his job
"group decision" |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:47:00 -
[189] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote:"group decision" deciding what to do != doing it
EFFORT HUNGRY VAMPIRE
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:50:00 -
[190] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote:Querns wrote:Dealth Striker wrote:Instead you do the work for them, wasting time and resources that could be spent on other paying subscribers. fyi this sort of **** is Darius "CCP 'Jersey' Sreegs" Johnson's job they literally hire him to deal with this sort of **** he is not somehow sucking work away from other developers or gms like some kind of effort hungry vampire this is his job "group decision" Plus I do not think he will personally be doing everything to do the so-called fix. Does he also just sit around waiting for something like to happen - I do not think so.
CCP is a professional organization, meetings are a normal thing.
And as to "other developers" getting pulled in on the fix - it means a hole in the game is fixed. Would you rather it be fixed after being used by five players who, as much as you might like to believe otherwise, went out of their way to minimize damage to the markets? Or would you have preferred CCP only really notice two or three months from now when it had crept into the wild and dozens of players were doing it? Because believe me, other players would have figured this out eventually, and CCP's time spent fixing it would be spent one way or another. . |
|
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:52:00 -
[191] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Dealth Striker wrote:Querns wrote:Dealth Striker wrote:Instead you do the work for them, wasting time and resources that could be spent on other paying subscribers. fyi this sort of **** is Darius "CCP 'Jersey' Sreegs" Johnson's job they literally hire him to deal with this sort of **** he is not somehow sucking work away from other developers or gms like some kind of effort hungry vampire this is his job "group decision" Plus I do not think he will personally be doing everything to do the so-called fix. Does he also just sit around waiting for something like to happen - I do not think so. CCP is a professional organization, meetings are a normal thing. And as to "other developers" getting pulled in on the fix - it means a hole in the game is fixed. Would you rather it be fixed after being used by five players who, as much as you might like to believe otherwise, went out of their way to minimize damage to the markets? Or would you have preferred CCP only really notice two or three months from now when it had crept into the wild and dozens of players were doing it? Because believe me, other players would have figured this out eventually, and CCP's time spent fixing it would be spent one way or another.
Sorry did not clarify - my comments are in regards to dealing with the 5 players and not the exploit itself |
Damion Rayne
Lorentz Technology Group
102
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:56:00 -
[192] - Quote
Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes
Agreed, proves my point. Goons are free and clear to do what ever they wish with not punishment what so ever. It's only a matter of time before the Goons reach their goal of destroying Eve. Wake up people, the goons are hackers, exploiters, and generally evil people in the real world and in Eve. They need to be removed from this game entirely before they destroy it for the rest of us. Teamwork.. Maturity.. Tactics.. www.tacticalgamer.com |
Xutech
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
186
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:00:00 -
[193] - Quote
I wonder whether CCP Sreeg's earlier belligerent, confused and contrary posts in the original thread were also guided by a team of CCP economists and security experts.
Certainly his tone has changed today but he is still obviously struggling to digest the more difficult theoretical questions this wholly unsatisfactory blog has given.
It's been made clear that we must accept this judgement without access to any appropriate information and we cannot even get a solid definition of how we might avoid this in the future. Being told not to make too much isk or apply too complex a theory to your financial schemes is....pathetic. |
Damion Rayne
Lorentz Technology Group
102
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:02:00 -
[194] - Quote
Xutech wrote:I wonder whether CCP Sreeg's earlier belligerent, confused and contrary posts in the original thread were also guided by a team of CCP economists and security experts.
Certainly his tone has changed today but he is still obviously struggling to digest the more difficult theoretical questions this wholly unsatisfactory blog has given.
It's been made clear that we must accept this judgement without access to any appropriate information and we cannot even get a solid definition of how we might avoid this in the future. Being told not to make too much isk or apply too complex a theory to your financial schemes is....pathetic.
Says a member of thee biggest threat to Eve Online. Figures you guys would try and state that you did nothing wrong, after all, goons never hacked, never exploit, never meta game and tell people to kill themselves. Oh no, Goons are angels...
Shut up, you people are the scourge of this game and should be eradicated from it.
Teamwork.. Maturity.. Tactics.. www.tacticalgamer.com |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1922
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:05:00 -
[195] - Quote
Xutech wrote:I wonder whether CCP Sreeg's earlier belligerent, confused and contrary posts in the original thread were also guided by a team of CCP economists and security experts.
Certainly his tone has changed today but he is still obviously struggling to digest the more difficult theoretical questions this wholly unsatisfactory blog has given.
It's been made clear that we must accept this judgement without access to any appropriate information and we cannot even get a solid definition of how we might avoid this in the future. Being told not to make too much isk or apply too complex a theory to your financial schemes is....pathetic.
Hi. I'm sorry if "Blowing your ship up over and over again with various items in the hold to manufacture a particular currency from thin air" isn't clear enough for you but I'm afraid it's a bit difficult to be more clear or direct. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Protheroe
UMEC
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:07:00 -
[196] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Atomic Option wrote:I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool. PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one. Will there be rewards for any of the other people who tried to bring to your attention that the system might be manipulated? |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1922
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:09:00 -
[197] - Quote
Protheroe wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Atomic Option wrote:I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool. PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one. Will there be rewards for any of the other people who tried to bring to your attention that the system might be manipulated?
Not if they didn't report it to me directly as per the mention in the thread linked from the blog. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Gossamer DT
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
81
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:11:00 -
[198] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes Agreed, proves my point. Goons are free and clear to do what ever they wish with not punishment what so ever. It's only a matter of time before the Goons reach their goal of destroying Eve. Wake up people, the goons are hackers, exploiters, and generally evil people in the real world and in Eve. They need to be removed from this game entirely before they destroy it for the rest of us.
Ohh stop, I am blushing here...do you really believe what you type? who is your main, and what does he do? |
TheSpyInCorp
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:14:00 -
[199] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo.
Fair enough. I hope you're having a good long conversation about how to fix Forex markets to keep them from being manipulated. It would be spectacular to see CCP be the first Gaming company win the Nobel Prize for Economics.
Would it even be eligible for a Nobel Prize? The biggest difference between real world economics and eve economics is that in eve we pay for everything with the present value of ISK whereas the real world economy has a future value of money due to interest, compound interest, depreciating salvage value, etc since companies and individuals all borrow money from banks.
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:16:00 -
[200] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes Agreed, proves my point. Goons are free and clear to do what ever they wish with not punishment what so ever. It's only a matter of time before the Goons reach their goal of destroying Eve. Wake up people, the goons are hackers, exploiters, and generally evil people in the real world and in Eve. They need to be removed from this game entirely before they destroy it for the rest of us.
Oh you. You're such a flatterer, I'm blushing.
(for someone who prides themselves on maturity, according to their sig, you sure are freaking out like a ten year old girl here) . |
|
Aemonchichi
Limited Access Guardian Society
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:23:00 -
[201] - Quote
so if i exploit a game mechanic over and over to amass insane amount of LPs ISKies etc for weeks and then i go : lulz ccp i owned the system then i get plex for snitches ?
you should name that programm more appropriate cause i doubt a person can snitch itself ^^
i am happy you come to the conclusion this was a exploit but i do not see you acting according to it, in fact it feels like you are encouraging players to repeat stuff like that in the future
taking the gain of someone using a exploit deliberatly should be the most basic reaction and cannot be part of a "fine" or "punishment"
in fact they exploited excessively and after correction of the exploited mechanism they get rewarded with plex
that does not even remotely feel right to me and i think CCP let a opportunity slip to make a clear statement of how they do not want stuff like this to happen ever again |
Sephira Galamore
Nemesis Holdings Corp Luna Sanguinem
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:24:00 -
[202] - Quote
From Sreegs blog "responsible disclosure - reporting security issues"
Quote:Simply saying "something is broken" isn't always helpful, but saying "something's broken and here's how I broke it" is what we're looking for. So, using the exploit to demonstrate it is actually quite ok, right? Disclosing it in the way it was done, publicly and with a lot of smug, isn't.^^ (And yes, while the document DID leak at first, don't tell me you weren't going to post this either way) |
TheSpyInCorp
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:28:00 -
[203] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ziranda Hakuli wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Zagdul wrote:Shouldn't they also retain LP equivalent to 2 weeks worth of 'normal' game play?
They were playing, they did let you know and they did participate in Faction Warfare. I really don't want to discuss actions against individual players any more than was detailed in the blog for informational purposes. Sorry duder. Sreegs i aplogize ahead for this one man. I know you cannot discuss what disciplinary actions are done to player XYZ nd so on but many will be disappointed if there are no Bannings. The group knew; they got their Egg heads together played with the formula and went hey you know you can do this and so a group went and did exactly how the egg heads said and exploited it and then said something about it. they did toss you under the bus not once but multiple times over this issue alone. A lot of folks feel they should be banned. if it was any other group they would have been banned in a blink of an eye and then work on the investigation. Many of us have talked about this and the general concensus is that your doing the father thing Shaking the finger at them and speaking in a stern voice "Do not do that again or else" Many have seen this and many want what the rules say to happen to them. Sorry Sreegs had to say my peice on this and hope you do the right thing. Peace We feel we did the right thing and it's unfortunate that we perhaps disagree in the severity of the response but unfortunately that's going to happen every time we make any decision.
plus, not everyone in the world is a white knight. If the result of reporting an exploit after exploting it yourself resulted in a ban, the only people who would ACTUALLY REPORT the exploit would be the white knights. Hopefully you see why that would be a problem
|
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
229
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:33:00 -
[204] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: Once we're done determining how much each person has benefitted we will remove the LP gained value in LP and items and return the ISK invested in the purchase of items to them. This essentially will set each of them back to the original point at which they began this activity. The person who reported the issue will receive the usual PLEX for Snitches reward.
When a child breaks his toys into a mess on the floor, you pick up all the pieces and throw them in the trash.
You don't glue them all back together so he can smash them tomorrow, and you sure as hell don't give him a piece of cake for doing it.
I feel I must congratulate you on recognizing it was an exploit. I'm surprised you recognized that.. (or was that dictated from above?)
I'm not mad, this is pretty much what I figured would happen. But you and I both know that if I'd have done this instead of your ex-goon buddies... or any other normal player, we would have been banned with no threadnaught to avenge us.
Good to know CCP resources will be spent to glue the Goons stuff back together for them. I'm sure they won't smash those toys again given the first opportunity. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
54
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:34:00 -
[205] - Quote
TheSpyInCorp wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo.
Fair enough. I hope you're having a good long conversation about how to fix Forex markets to keep them from being manipulated. It would be spectacular to see CCP be the first Gaming company win the Nobel Prize for Economics. Would it even be eligible for a Nobel Prize? The biggest difference between real world economics and eve economics is that in eve we pay for everything with the present value of ISK whereas the real world economy has a future value of money due to interest, compound interest, depreciating salvage value, etc since companies and individuals all borrow money from banks.
It wouldn't be directly applicable, but protecting an almost impossible to regulate market from manipulation would be a first... ever, so I imagine that it wouldn't be an enormous step to get it applied to real markets, especially since Futures markets are kind of understood. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:39:00 -
[206] - Quote
It pains me to see the degree of stupidity displayed by those apparently unable to see how this was an obvious exploit, or perhaps they just can't understand what was happening.
However, this appears to have been handled perfectly to me and even the 5 people directly involved are content with it. Though it would've been more amusing (for everyone else anyways) if even more assets than were profited through this exploitation remained seized... but that's just because they're goons.
Nor do I really understand people calling for bans when CCP is clearly capable of reversing the gains obtained through this fairly benign exploit. |
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
41
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:39:00 -
[207] - Quote
We, the players already told you that this will happen!
my own remark there might be many others in that thread as well
So, yes, sometimes it does make sense to listen to us! |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:42:00 -
[208] - Quote
Rented wrote:It pains me to see the degree of stupidity displayed by those apparently unable to see how this was an obvious exploit, or perhaps they just can't understand what was happening.
However, this appears to have been handled perfectly to me and even the 5 people directly involved are content with it. Though it would've been more amusing (for everyone else anyways) if even more assets than were profited through this exploitation remained seized... but that's just because they're goons.
Nor do I really understand people calling for bans when CCP is clearly capable of reversing the gains obtained through this fairly benign exploit.
At least you're honest and frank that your motivating desire to see us get ****ed is because we're goons. More than many other posters in this thread can say I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:43:00 -
[209] - Quote
CCP admitting it was an exploit - Kudos! CCP fixing said exploit - Kudos! CCP saying what is happening to the exploiters - Thumbs Down!
I feel u should have never said what their punishment (if you can call it that) was. CCP could have just said their accts are locked and they need to petition to get them unlocked. Then the public would not know (from CCP) how they were dealt with. But they would know what is involved in being in the petition queue.
From what I am reading in the blog and feedback, my opinion is:
Eve Community - the minority
Goons - the Majority |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:44:00 -
[210] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote: Eve Community - the minority
Goons - the Majority
4000 players are a majority out of a few hundred thousand.
Got it. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
|
Xaarous
Fleetworks Soldiers Of New Eve
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:45:00 -
[211] - Quote
To me it's pretty easy to test whether something you want to try would be an exploit or not: Ask yourself, who has to "fall for" my plan in order for it to work? (By "work", I mean "generate income with essentially zero risk")
1. If it's other players, congrats you're doing market manipulation or a scam. These are both allowed and the former in particular is a cornerstone of sandbox gameplay. 2. If it's CCP, you're cheating. 3. If it's somehow "no-one", it might be cheating but might be something new.
Examples: 1. Hulkageddon and isotope supply interdiction 2. LP spiral due to item 'value' formula manipulation 3. Jet can mining (allowed mining yield per player per unit time to go higher than originally anticipated, but ultimately deemed allowed and also 'neat')
The insurance payout scheme IMHO is #2, even though it was never deemed as such.
Is there an example of #2 that's currently deemed legal? I'd love to shoot some holes in my own theory. Are there other examples that fit #3? |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:46:00 -
[212] - Quote
apparently not |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:49:00 -
[213] - Quote
corestwo wrote: 4000 players are a majority out of a few hundred thousand.
See I can do it too |
Xutech
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
186
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:58:00 -
[214] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Xutech wrote:I wonder whether CCP Sreeg's earlier belligerent, confused and contrary posts in the original thread were also guided by a team of CCP economists and security experts.
Certainly his tone has changed today but he is still obviously struggling to digest the more difficult theoretical questions this wholly unsatisfactory blog has given.
It's been made clear that we must accept this judgement without access to any appropriate information and we cannot even get a solid definition of how we might avoid this in the future. Being told not to make too much isk or apply too complex a theory to your financial schemes is....pathetic. Hi. I'm sorry if "Blowing your ship up over and over again with various items in the hold to manufacture a particular currency from thin air" isn't clear enough for you but I'm afraid it's a bit difficult to be more clear or direct.
I feel better now you've made that humble confession. We have common ground but you can be very difficult to get along with. |
Madner Kami
Durendal Ascending Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:27:00 -
[215] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote::Fancygraph: All the other factions are kinda even keep and Minmitar was like OH HI!
So, not wanting to rain on your :Exploit-fixed-parade: but how comes nobody noticed that, until those 5 players spilled the beans to you?
P.S.: Page 11 already? Damn, I was afk for too long. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
474
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:31:00 -
[216] - Quote
Madner Kami wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote::Fancygraph: All the other factions are kinda even keep and Minmitar was like OH HI! So, not wanting to rain on your :Exploit-fixed-parade: but how comes nobody noticed that, until those 5 players spilled the beans to you? P.S.: Page 11 already? Damn, I was afk for too long.
They did see it elsewhere I guess. The connection just hadn't been made yet. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:31:00 -
[217] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Rented wrote:It pains me to see the degree of stupidity displayed by those apparently unable to see how this was an obvious exploit, or perhaps they just can't understand what was happening.
However, this appears to have been handled perfectly to me and even the 5 people directly involved are content with it. Though it would've been more amusing (for everyone else anyways) if even more assets than were profited through this exploitation remained seized... but that's just because they're goons.
Nor do I really understand people calling for bans when CCP is clearly capable of reversing the gains obtained through this fairly benign exploit. At least you're honest and frank that your motivating desire to see us get ****ed is because we're goons. More than many other posters in this thread can say To draw a comparison (at least for any American players), many posters in this thread want to see "justice done" in the same way that Darrell Issa wants to see "justice done" for Fast & Furious
I really, really want to continue this line of discussion. Really, really do. It's a fun discussion to have, and I had something witty all typed up. But I remembered that CCP has eaten some crow to make improvements, and we should do the same.
So this isn't the place. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:33:00 -
[218] - Quote
Madner Kami wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote::Fancygraph: All the other factions are kinda even keep and Minmitar was like OH HI! So, not wanting to rain on your :Exploit-fixed-parade: but how comes nobody noticed that, until those 5 players spilled the beans to you? P.S.: Page 11 already? Damn, I was afk for too long.
CCP GingerDude wrote:Kismeteer wrote:What sort of metrics does CCP watch for to catch these kinds of exploits? And what sort of systems can be put in place to understand why LP is coming from nothing, similar to how tech was coming from nothing under the previous silo duplication exploit? This did also show up as a statistical anomaly in our player event metrics although it took a while for it to properly register. I.e. we noticed and would've taken action regardless of snitching.
So yeah. They'd noticed, they just didn't quite get all of the implications of it right off the bat. Or something. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:33:00 -
[219] - Quote
Xaarous wrote:To me it's pretty easy to test whether something you want to try would be an exploit or not: Ask yourself, who has to "fall for" my plan in order for it to work? (By "work", I mean "generate income with essentially zero risk")
1. If it's other players, congrats you're doing market manipulation or a scam. These are both allowed and the former in particular is a cornerstone of sandbox gameplay. 2. If it's CCP, you're cheating. 3. If it's somehow "no-one", it might be cheating but might be something new.
Examples: 1. Hulkageddon and isotope supply interdiction 2. LP spiral due to item 'value' formula manipulation 3. Jet can mining (allowed mining yield per player per unit time to go higher than originally anticipated, but ultimately deemed allowed and also 'neat')
The insurance payout scheme IMHO is #2, even though it was never deemed as such.
Is there an example of #2 that's currently deemed legal? I'd love to shoot some holes in my own theory. Are there other examples that fit #3?
When it's profitable, Insurance fraud is still #2, and has never been deemed cheating or illegal. It's just been made so that it's much harder to come to situations where it's profitable. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
692
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:38:00 -
[220] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Hi. I'm sorry if "Blowing your ship up over and over again with various items in the hold to manufacture a particular currency from thin air" isn't clear enough for you but I'm afraid it's a bit difficult to be more clear or direct. It's funny that there exists a game mechanic that causes a certain currency to be manufactured from thin air whenever a ship is blown up over with various items in its hold, but if you actually blow up a ship over and over again with various items in its hold in order to create a certain currency from thin air you get all your assets seized. |
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Better Than You
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:41:00 -
[221] - Quote
Goons exploiting non-shocker. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3772
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:43:00 -
[222] - Quote
I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem. |
Spaja Saist
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:47:00 -
[223] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Atomic Option wrote:I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool. PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one.
This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.
CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way. |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:53:00 -
[224] - Quote
Spaja Saist wrote: This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.
CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.
did you miss the part where we had our LP and assets (including a goodly portion of non-involved assets) seized pending investigation
because that was a thing that did and is still happening
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:54:00 -
[225] - Quote
But but querns one of us will get two or three plexes out of the deal! I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:57:00 -
[226] - Quote
corestwo wrote:But but querns one of us will get two or three plexes out of the deal! I guess 2b isk is a lot to some people? :iiam: |
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:58:00 -
[227] - Quote
Querns wrote:Spaja Saist wrote: This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.
CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.
did you miss the part where we had our LP and assets (including a goodly portion of non-involved assets) seized pending investigation because that was a thing that did and is still happening
Clearly CCP hires exclusively from Goons and there's some extremely vague grand conspiracy which may involve aliens, butterscotch, a toaster, at least 17 deimos', and masking tape. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3773
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:59:00 -
[228] - Quote
While I see the rationale in simply banning LP farming - it is too difficult to ram a solution through quickly and not really your problem - it offends my EVE sensibilities to have a system that I am forbidden from using for something other than its intended purpose. I would hope that once the team has had a chance to look at this again and actually fix it, the ban on farming will be removed. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:00:00 -
[229] - Quote
Rented wrote:Querns wrote:Spaja Saist wrote: This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.
CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.
did you miss the part where we had our LP and assets (including a goodly portion of non-involved assets) seized pending investigation because that was a thing that did and is still happening Clearly CCP hires exclusively from Goons and there's some extremely vague grand conspiracy which may involve aliens, butterscotch, a toaster, at least 17 deimos', and masking tape.
Don't forget the 4 cords of prime Oak. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1931
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:11:00 -
[230] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem.
By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks". "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1933
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:12:00 -
[231] - Quote
Spaja Saist wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Atomic Option wrote:I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool. PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one. This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned. CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.
We're rewarding the person who brought us the problem. Just like any other time someone brings us problems of this nature as per the program linked in the dev blog. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1933
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:13:00 -
[232] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:While I see the rationale in simply banning LP farming - it is too difficult to ram a solution through quickly and not really your problem - it offends my EVE sensibilities to have a system that I am forbidden from using for something other than its intended purpose. I would hope that once the team has had a chance to look at this again and actually fix it, the ban on farming will be removed.
We would hope so too.
:edit: to clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:15:00 -
[233] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Weaselior wrote:I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem. By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks". wait really
is the y-axis on the graph in the devblog logarithmic or something |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1933
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:19:00 -
[234] - Quote
Querns wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Weaselior wrote:I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem. By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks". wait really is the y-axis on the graph in the devblog logarithmic or something
That graph was generated as part of the investigation. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:21:00 -
[235] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Querns wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Weaselior wrote:I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem. By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks". wait really is the y-axis on the graph in the devblog logarithmic or something That graph was generated as part of the investigation.
Wait, you don't have a matrix style wall of TVs showing Graphs of every possible bit of Economic activity in EvE?
Well, why not? -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Madner Kami
Durendal Ascending Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:29:00 -
[236] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Wait, you don't have a matrix style wall of TVs showing Graphs of every possible bit of Economic activity in EvE? Well, why not?
Well one might actually find this snarky comment funny, until you realize that the entire LP-system change which allowed this abuse in the first place, was one of the selling points of the recent expansion. I don't expect CCP to watch each and every little detail with graphs and logs and whatnot, but I kinda expect them to have an eye on the things they just released. |
Rhys Thoth
Endland
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:33:00 -
[237] - Quote
This resolution seems pretty fair, though as a trader I am somewhat concerned about the vagueness surrounding the market manipulation. As best as I can tell there were three issues:
1) FW LP gains for kills 2) Market price manipulation 3) Using an 'x day' rolling average to calculate item value
1 needs some tweaking. 2 has been legit gameplay since I first logged in.
3 is where it goes full ******. The algorithm for determining average price needs to be resistant to this type of tampering. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:34:00 -
[238] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Querns wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Weaselior wrote:I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem. By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks". wait really is the y-axis on the graph in the devblog logarithmic or something That graph was generated as part of the investigation. Wait, you don't have a matrix style wall of TVs showing Graphs of every possible bit of Economic activity in EvE? Well, why not?
I can't speak for CCP, but that is what, but that's what the interior of the Goonwaffe Economic Cabal looks like. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Munch Munch
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:34:00 -
[239] - Quote
So, to sum up the facts again quick: - They deliberately broke the rules by looking for holes in the mechanics and exploiting whatever they find (they admitted it) - Their exploits had huge impacts on the market and FW, which caused damage to thousands of other players - They did not go public with it because of good will, but only to protect themselves, brag about how "awesome" they are, and to make CCP look like fools
And what does CCP do? Instead of punishing them, YOU ARE DUMB ENOUGH TO REWARD THEM WITH IMMUNITY AND A FREE PLEX???
As if they cared about the rollback of the goods they made with those exploits. They had the time of their life, and you probably won't be able to delete all their gains anyway because they are spread all over the universe and to differents accounts and alts by now. If you permabanned them... perhaps this would have set a sign and they or others would not be trying to exploit in the future anymore. But by REWARDING them for such impudence, you will not prevent anyone from attempting to exploit... In fact all CCP did (or failed to do) in this case only encourages other players to exploit, and the persons that did it in this case will probably do it again themselves, but the next time they will not go public with it. And you probably will not notice it anyway, seeing how you failed to notice the extreme impacts on the market and FW, despite the fact that you should have been monitoring those things closely after implementing such extreme changes (yay for FW store prices varying between 25% and 400%).
Good to know that "the exploiter" seems to be a new EVE profession that is officially supported now. If CCP is this dumb, I will make sure to be looking for exploits too from now on. |
Spaja Saist
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:43:00 -
[240] - Quote
Querns wrote:Spaja Saist wrote: This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.
CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.
did you miss the part where we had our LP and assets (including a goodly portion of non-involved assets) seized pending investigation because that was a thing that did and is still happening
And you will get everything back that was not generated using an exploit as Sreegs said. It doesn't change the fact that they are ignoring their own TOS to not ban you. Exploiting a game mechanic is a bannable offense. Then add the fact that Goons gloated about it and gave CCP a black eye.
I personally could give two ***** about Goons. Hell I used to root for you when you were taking down BOB. But lately it seems all you guys care about is doing as much financial damage to CCP and their game as possible. |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1933
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:44:00 -
[241] - Quote
Rhys Thoth wrote:This resolution seems pretty fair, though as a trader I am somewhat concerned about the vagueness surrounding the market manipulation. As best as I can tell there were three issues:
1) FW LP gains for kills 2) Market price manipulation 3) Using an 'x day' rolling average to calculate item value
1 needs some tweaking. 2 has been legit gameplay since I first logged in.
3 is where it goes full ******. The algorithm for determining average price needs to be resistant to this type of tampering.
The tampering only compounded the issue and is not the issue in and of itself. The tampering itself when coupled with the ability to kill and alt over and over again to farm LP is the issue. Without the tampering the farming is significantly less problematic but it's only a part of the puzzle. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1934
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:46:00 -
[242] - Quote
Munch Munch wrote:So, to sum up the facts again quick: - They deliberately broke the rules by looking for holes in the mechanics and exploiting whatever they find (they admitted it) - Their exploits had huge impacts on the market and FW, which caused damage to thousands of other players - They did not go public with it because of good will, but only to protect themselves, brag about how "awesome" they are, and to make CCP look like fools
And what does CCP do? Instead of punishing them, YOU ARE DUMB ENOUGH TO REWARD THEM WITH IMMUNITY AND A FREE PLEX???
As if they cared about the rollback of the goods they made with those exploits. They had the time of their life, and you probably won't be able to delete all their gains anyway because they are spread all over the universe and to differents accounts and alts by now. If you permabanned them... perhaps this would have set a sign and they or others would not be trying to exploit in the future anymore. But by REWARDING them for such impudence, you will not prevent anyone from attempting to exploit... In fact all CCP did (or failed to do) in this case only encourages other players to exploit, and the persons that did it in this case will probably do it again themselves, but the next time they will not go public with it. And you probably will not notice it anyway, seeing how you failed to notice the extreme impacts on the market and FW, despite the fact that you should have been monitoring those things closely after implementing such extreme changes (yay for FW store prices varying between 25% and 400%).
Good to know that "the exploiter" seems to be a new EVE profession that is officially supported now. If CCP is this dumb, I will make sure to be looking for exploits too from now on.
If we weren't able to fix the problem we wouldn't have said we could. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Rhys Thoth
Endland
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:48:00 -
[243] - Quote
Munch Munch wrote:And what does CCP do? Instead of punishing them, YOU ARE DUMB ENOUGH TO REWARD THEM WITH IMMUNITY AND A FREE PLEX???
Yeah... It's not like having your assets frozen and several trillion isk in stuff vaporized is any kind of punishment.
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:48:00 -
[244] - Quote
Spaja Saist wrote:Querns wrote:Spaja Saist wrote: This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.
CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.
did you miss the part where we had our LP and assets (including a goodly portion of non-involved assets) seized pending investigation because that was a thing that did and is still happening And you will get everything back that was not generated using an exploit as Sreegs said. It doesn't change the fact that they are ignoring their own TOS to not ban you. Exploiting a game mechanic is a bannable offense. Then add the fact that Goons gloated about it and gave CCP a black eye. I personally could give two ***** about Goons. Hell I used to root for you when you were taking down BOB. But lately it seems all you guys care about is doing as much financial damage to CCP and their game as possible.
EULA wrote:CCP may establish Rules of Conduct (discussed below) for players accessing the System and may, but is not obligated to, monitor and take action regarding inappropriate conduct
The EULA/TOS are written (as most are) specifically to allow CCP unfettered choice in their responses to anything. Thus, they are not ignoring any part of their EULA/TOS regardless of how you may feel about the classification of this event. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Spaja Saist
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:49:00 -
[245] - Quote
Munch Munch wrote:So, to sum up the facts again quick: - They deliberately broke the rules by looking for holes in the mechanics and exploiting whatever they find (they admitted it) - Their exploits had huge impacts on the market and FW, which caused damage to thousands of other players - They did not go public with it because of good will, but only to protect themselves, brag about how "awesome" they are, and to make CCP look like fools
And what does CCP do? Instead of punishing them, YOU ARE DUMB ENOUGH TO REWARD THEM WITH IMMUNITY AND A FREE PLEX???
As if they cared about the rollback of the goods they made with those exploits. They had the time of their life, and you probably won't be able to delete all their gains anyway because they are spread all over the universe and to differents accounts and alts by now. If you permabanned them... perhaps this would have set a sign and they or others would not be trying to exploit in the future anymore. But by REWARDING them for such impudence, you will not prevent anyone from attempting to exploit... In fact all CCP did (or failed to do) in this case only encourages other players to exploit, and the persons that did it in this case will probably do it again themselves, but the next time they will not go public with it. And you probably will not notice it anyway, seeing how you failed to notice the extreme impacts on the market and FW, despite the fact that you should have been monitoring those things closely after implementing such extreme changes (yay for FW store prices varying between 25% and 400%).
Good to know that "the exploiter" seems to be a new EVE profession that is officially supported now. If CCP is this dumb, I will make sure to be looking for exploits too from now on.
^What she said. CCP has set a bad precedent with this decision.
|
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
168
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:51:00 -
[246] - Quote
ROFLMAO
I have always said that people who find exploits like this are: a) brilliant b) spend too much time in-game
I think CCP should hire those five guys to do testing. I'll bet they'll find all kinds of stuff while simultaneously being more effective than the current testers. |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 00:04:00 -
[247] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:ROFLMAO
I have always said that people who find exploits like this are: a) brilliant b) spend too much time in-game
I think CCP should hire those five guys to do testing. I'll bet they'll find all kinds of stuff while simultaneously being more effective than the current testers. ccp can't afford me, also I've worked in the video games industry so the novelty is lost on me |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 00:16:00 -
[248] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:ROFLMAO
I have always said that people who find exploits like this are: a) brilliant b) spend too much time in-game
I think CCP should hire those five guys to do testing. I'll bet they'll find all kinds of stuff while simultaneously being more effective than the current testers. I'm currently unemployed & looking for work (which is what definitely makes part B true), but even then I'm with querns - CCP can't afford me, not when I'd have to move to iceland. I'm a mechanical engineer anyway, I don't know the first thing about programming...
Besides, being unable to muck around in the markets would be no fun. Same reason I'd never run for CSM...they kinda frown on insider trading by CSM members I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 00:25:00 -
[249] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Spaja Saist wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Atomic Option wrote:I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool. PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one. This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned. CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way. We're rewarding the person who brought us the problem. Just like any other time someone brings us problems of this nature as per the program linked in the dev blog.
There you go - CCP can release a summer event entitled - "Exploit for PLEX" |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3774
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 00:38:00 -
[250] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:ROFLMAO
I have always said that people who find exploits like this are: a) brilliant b) spend too much time in-game
I think CCP should hire those five guys to do testing. I'll bet they'll find all kinds of stuff while simultaneously being more effective than the current testers. most of the theoretical work for this comes from shooting the **** on jabber, not actually being in-game
eaugh, being in-game |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3774
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 00:38:00 -
[251] - Quote
thats like what ratters and miners and other peasants do |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3774
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 00:40:00 -
[252] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: I'm pretty sure that's not how this works and is specifically spoken against in the blog. While a great deal of LP was generated here the vast majority wasn't cashed out making it just a number in people's wallets. The proceeds were seized. No advantage is had. The market could have been crashed but the issue was reported instead. I know that will never be enough for some and that we're not going to please everyone but at the very least if you're going to post in this thread please at least make a modicum of effort to read the blog in question.
sreegs it's 12:40 am over there go to sleep |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1935
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 00:43:00 -
[253] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: I'm pretty sure that's not how this works and is specifically spoken against in the blog. While a great deal of LP was generated here the vast majority wasn't cashed out making it just a number in people's wallets. The proceeds were seized. No advantage is had. The market could have been crashed but the issue was reported instead. I know that will never be enough for some and that we're not going to please everyone but at the very least if you're going to post in this thread please at least make a modicum of effort to read the blog in question.
sreegs it's 12:40 am over there go to sleep
going now :( "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
59
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 00:49:00 -
[254] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: I'm pretty sure that's not how this works and is specifically spoken against in the blog. While a great deal of LP was generated here the vast majority wasn't cashed out making it just a number in people's wallets. The proceeds were seized. No advantage is had. The market could have been crashed but the issue was reported instead. I know that will never be enough for some and that we're not going to please everyone but at the very least if you're going to post in this thread please at least make a modicum of effort to read the blog in question.
sreegs it's 12:40 am over there go to sleep going now :(
INB4 Tinfoil Pillows. Night night, Sreegs. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 00:55:00 -
[255] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
I'm pretty sure that's not how this works and is specifically spoken against in the blog. While a great deal of LP was generated here the vast majority wasn't cashed out making it just a number in people's wallets. The proceeds were seized. No advantage is had. The market could have been crashed but the issue was reported instead. I know that will never be enough for some and that we're not going to please everyone but at the very least if you're going to post in this thread please at least make a modicum of effort to read the blog in question.
I read the blog - and have posted that my only concern is the way CCP is handling the exploiters. I have no ill-feelings to the exploiters - having worked for a major gaming comany in QA, I have always been thrilled to see how people can figure ways around normal game play, break things, etc. The fact they can manipulate CCP is enlightening. My beef is with CCP's handling of the exploiters. To say on the one hand we are following this to the letter (as an excuse) and then saying on the other hand we discussed this, and this is how we are handling it, is pretty funny. So if you look at it, there will always be an excuse given - so just man up and say the old saying "Our game, our rules, so either put up with it or there is the door". Do not insult peoples' intelligence with trying to come up with a believable excuse for justifying your actions.
Also, maybe should have kept the handling of the exploiters to in-house - you got to know it looks like favoritism. I would love to know the reasoning behind releasing the punishment to the forums. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
521
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 01:01:00 -
[256] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote:My beef is with CCP's handling of the exploiters. To say on the one hand we are following this to the letter (as an excuse) and then saying on the other hand we discussed this, and this is how we are handling it, is pretty funny.
EULA wrote:CCP may establish Rules of Conduct (discussed below) for players accessing the System and may, but is not obligated to, monitor and take action regarding inappropriate conduct Sounds like they followed this to the letter to me.
Dealth Striker wrote:So if you look at it, there will always be an excuse given - so just man up and say the old saying "Our game, our rules, so either put up with it or there is the door". Do not insult peoples' intelligence with trying to come up with a believable excuse for justifying your actions.
Also, maybe should have kept the handling of the exploiters to in-house - you got to know it looks like favoritism. I would love to know the reasoning behind releasing the punishment to the forums. Sreegs' job is dealing with this sort of thing. Granted that normally entails botters and RMTers, but hey.
As to releasing it to the forums - this is really no different than when he went all viking raider on RMT rings. Only difference is that we posted about it first, so you know our names. Had we not posted, you probably wouldn't be complaining. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 01:21:00 -
[257] - Quote
Liam Mirren wrote:Goon tears best tears.
what tears? i dont see any goon tears at all |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
523
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 01:25:00 -
[258] - Quote
Linda Shadowborn wrote:Liam Mirren wrote:Goon tears best tears. what tears? i dont see any goon tears at all
Dealth Striker, Cipher Jones (who hasn't turned up in this thread, actually) and Pr1ncess Aria or whatever his/her name was are clearly goon alts. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Spurty
D00M. Northern Coalition.
287
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 01:27:00 -
[259] - Quote
Good work!
Loading ships up with uncommon items and blowing them up, then looking for anomalies is not where any sane qa manager should be spending their time. You need to recruit more insane workers ---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1389
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 01:27:00 -
[260] - Quote
Mighty nice of CCP to go to the trouble of sifting through all the transactions made and carefully reversing them instead of just confiscating all the ill-gotten LP or banning them. Good job though. |
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
523
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 01:34:00 -
[261] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Mighty nice of CCP to go to the trouble of sifting through all the transactions made and carefully reversing them instead of just confiscating all the ill-gotten LP or banning them. Good job though.
They did this, you know. Almost right off the bat, in fact. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Damion Rayne
Lorentz Technology Group
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 01:39:00 -
[262] - Quote
So, CCP Sreegs, if I exploit...and tell you about it, I'll get banned right? It's just because it was Goons that they get off with pretty much nothing? Teamwork.. Maturity.. Tactics.. www.tacticalgamer.com |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
596
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 01:50:00 -
[263] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Mighty nice of CCP to go to the trouble of sifting through all the transactions made and carefully reversing them instead of just confiscating all the ill-gotten LP or banning them. Good job though. They did this, you know. Almost right off the bat, in fact.
He doesn't know. That is why he posted something dumb. Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
596
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 01:51:00 -
[264] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:So, CCP Sreegs, if I exploit...and tell you about it, I'll get banned right? It's just because it was Goons that they get off with pretty much nothing?
we're only out 5 trillion ISK, nbd Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
524
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 01:51:00 -
[265] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:So, CCP Sreegs, if I exploit...and tell you about it, I'll get banned right? It's just because it was Goons that they get off with pretty much nothing? This person. He's also a goon alt, and is another reason why it's possible for there to be goon tears in this thread. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Munch Munch
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 02:02:00 -
[266] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Dealth Striker wrote:There you go - CCP can release a summer event entitled - "Exploit for PLEX"
find an exploit, use it to your advantage for awhile, and then turn yourself in -- woola - plex abound. I'm pretty sure that's not how this works and is specifically spoken against in the blog.
Yet the lack of punishment, combined with your inability to notice exploiting, does nothing but encourage exploiting.
CCP Sreegs wrote:While a great deal of LP was generated here the vast majority wasn't cashed out making it just a number in people's wallets.
Seriously, are you kidding, or are you really so biased that you are unwilling to see or to admit how far this whole thing went?
Maybe the vast majority of LP wasn't cashed out, but still way more items were created through the LP store than any mission runner would ever be able to generate in his entire life. Just look at the numbers of the screens that they provide themselves http://imgur.com/1fSsT http://i.imgur.com/dtMk4.png I don't know if you know, but one implant needs one click in the LP store for example... If not all was cashed out, it only means that their macros/bots were not able to cash out more than that despite literally running 24/7. Using third party tools is another point you SHOULD punish them for. But wait, CCP Sreegs is so biased... He probably thinks goons really spent dozens of hours just clicking buttons in the LP store to generate those amounts of items themselves.
CCP Sreegs wrote:The market could have been crashed but the issue was reported instead.
They stated themselves that they had to sell some of the generated goods several times during the two weeks while the exploiting was still in progress, so they could cover the ISK part of the LP store prices, just to generate even more items. You say no markets were crashed? If you bothered to check actually, you would see that the prices of many items went down considerably because of that. They obviously filled out all buy orders for some items and probably put up many sell orders with dumping prices too. The impacts are still visible even today since it takes time for the markets to recover. Because of this, much damage was caused to all traders and people that use LP stores in legal ways to profit from the affected items.
CCP Sreegs wrote:The proceeds were seized. No advantage is had. On their main accounts maybe. But you can't possibly delete all items that already got onto the market because of this. If the goons weren't stupid (they already proved they aren't), they "washed" huge amounts of items by indirectly trading them to each others alt accounts through hugely underpriced buy orders. Even if you tried to trace this, you most likely wouldn't be able to if they used proxies and did this in between their usual cash-ins on the public market. Seeing how incompetent you acted in this case, I really doubt you got all their goods, so now they will be able to resell the washed items and go out of this not only unpunished, but also with more ISK than they had before (also because of the free PLEXes you give them as a reward for "reporting the issue", while their thread was actually more like a "public mocking of CCP", LOL).
|
Zalifer Esepula
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 02:11:00 -
[267] - Quote
Posting my displeasure that this was deemed an exploit. The correct soloution was to call it a problem, and fix it. If you have to decide afterwards if it's an exploit, it wasn't. They only used game mechanics to do what game mechanics allowed.
Quote:
1. EXPLOITS
An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if:
a. Investigation shows that a player has employed the use of an exploit tactic despite a public announcement being made to alert players they will be banned for using it. b. A player who has been previously warned for exploiting and continues to exploit, whether using the same exploit or another. c. An account holder guilty of employing GÇ£dupingGÇ¥ exploits. Players found to have received the benefits of this exploit may also face reprimand, from removal of the items in question up to, and including, banning of their accounts. d. A player has engaged in activity that intentionally causes others to lose connection, suffer latency issues (lag) or to crash to desktop (CTD). e. A player renders himself invulnerable through the use of a bug. f. A player has created, distributed or advertised an illegal 3rd party program (i.e. macro or cheat program) that disrupts game mechanics, is considered unfriendly or gives an unfair advantage by misusing game features in a way for which they were not intended.
Severe offences may result in an immediate ban without warning; however, warnings may be given for first time offenses, followed by account suspensions of varying degree and ultimately a permanent ban if a player:
a. Creates a character using a name that is misleading and causes others to believe he is a fair target, such as a non-player pirate or other NPC entity. b. Is discovered to be employing the use of a third party program to macro illegally. Funds or goods received from the benefits of macroing are subject to removal from the playerGÇÖs inventory. c. Is aware of an exploitable bug and fails to report it to Game Masters and/or distributes the information to other players.
Which one of these categorizes their actions as an exploit. This is clearly not a bug. All systems functioned as intended. They manipulated the moving average. They blew up ships. They collected LP rewards. They cashed in LP for LP rewards.
Which of those is broken? Which part of that is a bug?
None. They exploited nothing other than the system given to them, the same as 0.01ISK traders, and people who manipulate the market for other reasons. They meta gamed like hell, and that was all they did.
I won't pretend im going to leave or unsubscribe, but this a worrying step for CCP, far worse than some In station Avatar, or expensive monocle.
The only thing i hope is that this is 100% damage control because of the way the 5 involved managed to get so much of a stir from the EVE-GD visitors. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1389
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 02:20:00 -
[268] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Mighty nice of CCP to go to the trouble of sifting through all the transactions made and carefully reversing them instead of just confiscating all the ill-gotten LP or banning them. Good job though. They did this, you know. Almost right off the bat, in fact. Yeah, and they could have left it at that if they chose - but didn't. That's why I preceded it with the word 'just'. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
256
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 03:02:00 -
[269] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes Hi Capsuleer Kern Hotha, you may have missed the bit where we pointed out that these are group decisions. I'm pleased you feel it necessary to question my integrity but unfortunately for you in this case your conspiratorial scenario has no grounding in reality. Says the guy whose integrity is in question. No conflict of interest there whatsoever.
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Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 03:05:00 -
[270] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Says the guy whose integrity is in question. No conflict of interest there whatsoever.
All the proof of the Moon landing came from NASA, the government agency whose accomplishments are in question.
Conspiracy Theories are fun like that. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
|
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
256
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 03:19:00 -
[271] - Quote
Abulurd Boniface wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Dalilus wrote:i am beginning to understand why expansions in eve are free.......maybe ccp will learn from this...... Nothing in EVE is free. We pay for our expansions in installments, whether they are monthly or one of the other payment frequencies chosen. Furthermore, some of CCP's customers opt to provide stress / load, design and functionality testing services via the Mass testing sessions and feedback periods on Sisi. That is an enormous cost savings to CCP and could also be looked at yet another way in which CCP's clients pay into their services and enable these "free" expansions. TBH, EVE is a fairly expensive MMO, so don't kid yourself about all of the stuff that CCP is just throwing away for "free." I suspect someone is suffering from an ailment at the extreme end of the digestive tract here. EVE is extremely affordable. The environment you get is a piece of engineering that boggles the mind and that is at the bleeding edge of technology. -And- you get to do crazy stuff like this which, when it is not deemed an exploit, a position that I can support in this case, stands if it doesn't break the ephemeral balance between 'sure, we'll accept this' and 'sorry guys, we can't let you do that.' If the 5 guys who did this tried that in any other MMOG, their account would have been permabanned without any ifs, buts or maybes. CCP has acknowledged the genius of finding this weakness and provided a measured response. This is elite leadership. Show me any other place where it would have been handled like that. We get to play in a superb environment, we are spoiled rotten by continuous, detailed and measured communication from the designers and the tapestry of third-party applications built and maintained by players is a refined quilt of beauty and enthusiasm. It kills me to see people whining incessantly over the pittance they are charged for the privilege of joining this magnificent universe, when they know full well that you can't even get a decent buzz at the bar going for that price on a single evening. My dear space friend, we are talking apples and oranges here.
No where was the cost of playing EVE compared to the cost of having a night out with the mates. EVE is very cheap relative to a long night of drinking, but, speaking only for myself, I can find a quality 750ML bottle of beer and obtain a fine buzz for half the cost of a month's sub, thanks. Maybe two glasses of a double or triple fermented beverage at the local watering hole for a month's sub.
The cost of EVE was made against the growing number of F2P titles where you can get a fairly robust amount of entertainment for the cost of space on your HD and bandwidth used. Even buying gold in those services to gain advantage doesn't even come close to the amount of cash spent on an EVE subscription let alone the 2, 3, 4 or more subs for which most hard core players pay or buy PLEX.
I think that it is important that people understand that they are indeed paying for the twice yearly "expansions" with their subscription fees and purchased PLEX. It is simply a business lesson. No more.
And there is no denying that EVE is a neat and unique entertainment service. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
256
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 03:21:00 -
[272] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Says the guy whose integrity is in question. No conflict of interest there whatsoever.
All the proof of the Moon landing came from NASA, the government agency whose accomplishments are in question. Conspiracy Theories are fun like that. That is a poor comparison.
284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Molic Blackbird
Orion Faction Industries Orion Consortium
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 03:22:00 -
[273] - Quote
Were the minerals that got blown up also returned? |
Damion Rayne
Lorentz Technology Group
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 03:25:00 -
[274] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Damion Rayne wrote:So, CCP Sreegs, if I exploit...and tell you about it, I'll get banned right? It's just because it was Goons that they get off with pretty much nothing? This person. He's also a goon alt, and is another reason why it's possible for there to be goon tears in this thread.
I'm not a goon alt you tool. I am very very upset with this just as a lot of people are, it's now proven Goons have full reign to do what ever they want. Teamwork.. Maturity.. Tactics.. www.tacticalgamer.com |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 03:29:00 -
[275] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Says the guy whose integrity is in question. No conflict of interest there whatsoever.
All the proof of the Moon landing came from NASA, the government agency whose accomplishments are in question. Conspiracy Theories are fun like that. That is a poor comparison.
How? You have no evidence of wrongdoing on CCP Sreegs part and Moon Landing Deniers have no evidence of wrongdoing on NASA's part, so you rely on trying to poison the well. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 03:30:00 -
[276] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:corestwo wrote:Damion Rayne wrote:So, CCP Sreegs, if I exploit...and tell you about it, I'll get banned right? It's just because it was Goons that they get off with pretty much nothing? This person. He's also a goon alt, and is another reason why it's possible for there to be goon tears in this thread. I'm not a goon alt you tool. I am very very upset with this just as a lot of people are, it's now proven Goons have full reign to do what ever they want.
Careful there. We mustn't let our attacks get personal.
'gainst the rules there dont'cha know. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Haifisch Zahne
HZ Corp
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 05:05:00 -
[277] - Quote
I don't see this situation as one of Foreign Exchange markets. The situation is not that the Amarr have one currency, the Minmatar another, and that the Minmatar were destroying Amarrian shipping while hedging against Amarrian currency... etc.
"Not that there is anything wrong with that."
The situation is one of a "complex" derivative product-- albeit not very "complex" as it was based on a simple formula tied to the moving average of market prices. FW LP points became a derivative product, tied to the market with hokum pokum.
Everyone today knows that derivative products are a terrible RISK. That CCP sold this risky derivative product in its thoroughly unbaked Inferno release, and as a result there was a spectacular financial meltdown, should come as no surprise. To ANYONE.
An exploit? No. It should have been a no-brainer: CCP tried to cash in on a catchy, new feature for Inferno, but failed to do its research-- in spite of having an in-house Ph.D. economist. And now, YET AGAIN, CCP hides its mistake without admitting it, a reminder of how the Bankers themselves all got rich and none went to jail in the financial crisis. |
Haifisch Zahne
HZ Corp
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 05:15:00 -
[278] - Quote
Wow, a personal attack? Amazing argument.
None ofthe Above wrote:Mechaet wrote:Haifisch Zahne wrote:I see only two reasons given by CCP Sreegs, speaking for CCP, why this "event" (Goon 4x4? GoonGate? Goon FW Crisis 2012?) has been classified as an exploit:
1) "Because of the volumes and disparity involved we've had to take action to fix this particular system."
2) "Because this was essentially a system where you could print LP, even if ISK was provided as an input, it is classified as an exploit."
But, 1) only speaks to the surprising SUCCESS of the Goons. It does not speak to it being an exploit. For example, that Bill Gates (and Microsoft) have made a giganormous fortune is not reason to say Microsoft Windows is an "exploit". (It is for other reasons.)
And, 2) contains an enormous IF clause: "even if ISK was provided as an input". The Goons did not buy an LP printing press, with ISK. This was not the "input" of ISK. They gamed the system, and it required purchases necessarily to function. Had they blown up stuff "from thin air", then, yes, they would have successfully printed LP.
CCP needs to explain WHY this classifies as an exploit, rather than an enormously successful method of multiplying an investment.
CCP has not done this. And they never will. Its been explained over and over again and its doubtful that saying it one more time would influence those who would seem to lack one or more of: the patience to read it, will to accept it, or the capacity to understand it. Perhaps it would suffice for you that those most effected are willing to accept the ruling? Honestly I think most folk think they got off a little light.
|
Haifisch Zahne
HZ Corp
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 05:16:00 -
[279] - Quote
Sorry, when I saw the Comments button, I thought I was allowed to comment. My mistake.
CCP Sreegs wrote:Haifisch Zahne wrote:I see only two reasons given by CCP Sreegs, speaking for CCP, why this "event" (Goon 4x4? GoonGate? Goon FW Crisis 2012?) has been classified as an exploit:
1) "Because of the volumes and disparity involved we've had to take action to fix this particular system."
2) "Because this was essentially a system where you could print LP, even if ISK was provided as an input, it is classified as an exploit."
But, 1) only speaks to the surprising SUCCESS of the Goons. It does not speak to it being an exploit. For example, that Bill Gates (and Microsoft) have made a giganormous fortune is not reason to say Microsoft Windows is an "exploit". (It is for other reasons.)
And, 2) contains an enormous IF clause: "even if ISK was provided as an input". The Goons did not buy an LP printing press, with ISK. This was not the "input" of ISK. They gamed the system, and it required purchases necessarily to function. Had they blown up stuff "from thin air", then, yes, they would have successfully printed LP.
CCP needs to explain WHY this classifies as an exploit, rather than an enormously successful method of multiplying an investment.
CCP has not done this. We classified it as an exploit and gave the explanation. That you were not satisfied with that explanation is unfortunate but it's the only one we're giving.
|
Steve Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 05:18:00 -
[280] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:What sort of metrics does CCP watch for to catch these kinds of exploits? And what sort of systems can be put in place to understand why LP is coming from nothing, similar to how tech was coming from nothing under the previous silo duplication exploit?
Back then some of the comunity (AkitaT and some others) were more or less wondering what the hell was going on with T2.
(I was not tracking anything Tec 2 related at the time because I was shiping T1 mat between 2 regions while trying to keep up with my build orders in a third, when I looked at the numbers where I was my initial reaction (based on the region I was in at the time) at first was that it was the normal reaction to a hord-manipulate-dump cycle) the developers aparently were thinking at first along the lines of meh just the usual price dive because someone came back into the game or dumped inventory at first, but some of the market people were noteing some odd things (who and where selling was happening)(that and for some reason some of the developers were thinking there was more Alchemy going on than was actualy going on, I suspect they may have had an Idea as to how many setups existed but not how many were actualy running, I know I saw several defacto abandoed setups at the time from some of the fuel runs I was doing)
Frankly back then they did not develop the kind of tracking tools for all of this that they have nowdays. in part because frankly they did not think they needed them. |
|
Steve Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 05:34:00 -
[281] - Quote
Rented wrote:Querns wrote:Spaja Saist wrote: This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.
CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.
did you miss the part where we had our LP and assets (including a goodly portion of non-involved assets) seized pending investigation because that was a thing that did and is still happening Clearly CCP hires exclusively from Goons and there's some extremely vague grand conspiracy which may involve aliens, butterscotch, a toaster, at least 17 deimos', and masking tape. you forgot the cattleprod. |
Steve Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 05:36:00 -
[282] - Quote
corestwo wrote:
I can't speak for CCP, but that is what, but that's what the interior of the Goonwaffe Economic Cabal looks like.
you should see what my spreadsheets look like. they do trend analysis and projections. |
Peter Tjordenskiold
19
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 06:31:00 -
[283] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:I think it certainly has an impact on EVE as you stated, but that impact is something new. To make a statement of USING THE MARKET TO GAIN MONEY IS OVER EVE IS DYING, is a bit silly. (Not you specifically but others in this thread) This isn't a legacy problem and has no impact on how you deal with existing systems. It only impacts your interaction with FW.
What we need to do is take a good long hard look at how to deal with items that have disparate values in what are essentially two currencies. I'm pretty sure that is the pivot point in this scenario and from that perspective I'm just Winston Wolf. I don't design these systems.
As it stands today our stance is that buying something and purposely blowing it up to generate value in another currency is exploiting. It was clearly not our intent in creating the system for that to occur. The system was meant to encourage PVP not wanton suicidal destruction to print money.
In the end we will be denied to use the mechanics. That is wrong and will be the death for the sandbox, which is more important for the fun in this game than sanity. When something is going wrong CCP has to change the mechanics. Making the players responsible for using bad designed mechanics is hillarious stupid, because the sandbox with it's implemented boundaries makes the fun in the game. |
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
207
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 06:55:00 -
[284] - Quote
Inferno 1.1.5 patch notes:
- A new collectable item has been gifted to some players: The Jar of Jovian Tears is in the redeeming system for five player accounts.
It's a bit of a shame these guys won't get anything out of their efforts, but this result is probably the best anyone could have reasonably expected. Leaving that much potential ISK in the hands of these rascals would've been disastrous.
I'm glad they're not getting bans. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
152
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 07:05:00 -
[285] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:The cost of EVE was made against the growing number of F2P titles where you can get a fairly robust amount of entertainment for the cost of space on your HD and bandwidth used. Even buying gold in those services to gain advantage doesn't even come close to the amount of cash spent on an EVE subscription let alone the 2, 3, 4 or more subs for which most hard core players pay or buy PLEX.
This makes no sense. "fairly robust amount of entertainment" ... right ... I've played quite a few of those F2P mmos and on a scale of 1-10 they've all been at about a 2 as far as entertainment value goes. If you want to buy the advantage then you're going to spend way more for pure **** than you ever will on EVE. EVE is cheap, and easily the best MMO to date (nothing else so far even comes close.)
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:I think that it is important that people understand that they are indeed paying for the twice yearly "expansions" with their subscription fees and purchased PLEX. It is simply a business lesson. No more.
And there is no denying that EVE is a neat and unique entertainment service.
This, however, makes total sense. It's why the $15 a month is both justified and competitive. It's the equivalent of buying a newly released AAA title every 4 months. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
152
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 07:15:00 -
[286] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:I don't see this situation as one of Foreign Exchange markets. The situation is not that the Amarr have one currency, the Minmatar another, and that the Minmatar were destroying Amarrian shipping while hedging against Amarrian currency... etc.
"Not that there is anything wrong with that."
The situation is one of a "complex" derivative product-- albeit not very "complex" as it was based on a simple formula tied to the moving average of market prices. FW LP points became a derivative product, tied to the market with hokum pokum.
Everyone today knows that derivative products are a terrible RISK. That CCP sold this risky derivative product in its thoroughly unbaked Inferno release, and as a result there was a spectacular financial crisis, should come as no surprise. To ANYONE.
An exploit? No. It should have been a no-brainer: CCP tried to cash in on a catchy, new feature for Inferno, but failed to do its research-- in spite of having an in-house Ph.D. economist. And now, YET AGAIN, CCP hides its mistake without admitting it, a reminder of how the Bankers themselves all got rich and none went to jail in the financial crisis.
Honestly, I'd like to see LP go. It never made any real sense anyway. If you have to reward people for doing missions purely for a certain faction, just make the tax breaks and reprocessing yields (etc, etc) more appealing. A phoney Walmart-dollar esque currency is just silly. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
636
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 08:41:00 -
[287] - Quote
I look at it in terms of abusing the information the EVE simulation has to your advantage, versus trying to fake the information to the EVE system. An exploit is somehow convincing the simulation to think that something is true, when it isn't.
The moongoo duping was an exploit. Players managed to convince the system that a silo was connected, when it in fact wasn't.
The FW ISK to LP conversion was an exploit. Players managed to convince the system that destroying a freighter full of crappy widgets was worth praise, glory, and one's weight in LP. Note that this is different from market manipulation. Market manipulation is trying to convince other players to pay more for the item than it's "worth" (however we define worth of an item). Intentionally trying to manipulate the CCP-determined market value of an item should, in my opinion, always be classified as an exploit.
(Worth noting though, in my opinion CCP shouldn't try to guestimate item values based off of anything. The value of an item is not a single number constant across the entire universe. Any attempts to assign a single number only screw with the market - making people think something is worth more or less than it actually is. Basing game mechanics on such a number is completely stupid.)
Insurance fraud was not an exploit. To my knowledge nobody ever intentionally faked mineral prices to the EVE system to make it profitable. People simply discovered that the existing prices and insurance values make it profitable, and took advantage of it.
As far as punishment handed out, Sreegs explained it well enough in the blog. The perpetrators of the moongoo duping exploit ran it quietly for nearly a year without saying anything. The exploit was revealed by a third party. This time the five people did it just to see if it could be done. If money was ever the incentive, you'd see way more tears and accusations. Once they saw they could, they promptly reported the exploit. I would argue that maybe a temporary ban would be acceptable - seeing as someone can be tempbanned for saying :words: outside of the game - but it's not my decision to make.
And last, all the lolgoons omgmysandbox EVEisdying posts are hilarious. Keep them coming, I need a good laugh! |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 09:48:00 -
[288] - Quote
Introducing a LP payout system thats based on market prices for dropped items and stuff.
WHO knew that the market pricing can be manipulated.
OMG does that mean this also happens in the real world ?!
CCP acting like a Competition regulator in an unfair game, you're killing me
Eve Radio |
Varg Krugar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 10:29:00 -
[289] - Quote
i like the proposition of a logarithmic scale for the "ISK value to LP reward" translation, coupled with a basket price baseline.
a linear multiplier like the proposed 4.5x may work, but it does not make the system more resilient, it just fixes this one instance where we know the exact numbers.
i'm not sure whether putting a logarithmic basket tether into the avg. price formula would make too much sense. some items are just priced higher because the player base as a whole deems them more useful, e.g. 1% tracking implant vs 1% defender missile implant. and if the avg. price does not reflect this, players just start ignoring it for everyday use.
but once the avg price display is used to calculate payouts of any kind, it becomes exploitable, so much is clear now. in this particular case, i don't think it would shave off too much LP if outliers were dampened when calculating LP rewards from these average prices. and the way i would do this is to create basket prices, and tether the individual constituent prices to the basket by a log scale[1]. as stated before, this only applies for items not made from minerals. it may lead to a situation where you kill an officer fit ship and you only get rewarded like it was deadspace fit, but... who cares? the payout is still nice, just not uber-nice. and you aren't exactly entitled to it in the first place.
[1] payout for item = min (item price, basket price + log( abs(item price - basket price))) items currently cheaper than the basket are priced at their price (e.g. you cant blow up unmanipulated 1% defender implants and get paid like they were a basket of average 1% implants that are more expensive), items above the basket price are priced with the basket price + the logarithm of the difference between their price and the basket price. that way, you still get a little more than the average basket price when you blow up 1% tracking implants, but you get less than they're worth).
on the way CCP handled this, i have to say the punishment does have a whiff of the SEC or CFTC on it. if you cannot make sense of the acronyms, i encourage you to use your internet powers and read some Matt Taibbi. what basically happens is the following: a complex system is gamed, the regulator is not able to police the system fully by itself due to the complexity and requires the exploiters to come forward to fix things. this requires leniency on the regulators part, or no-one would snitch. and from there on out it is very hard to keep the moral hazard in check. once you're able to broker "no-one got hurt" deals with your regulator, you start to get creative with your concept of the law because you know you can always negotiate. win some, loose some... but never loose all. not good for a culture in the long run. given capsuleers are the "1%" of the eve universe, this might be in keeping with the lore, but i advise caution. |
Reaper gI
Me Wanna Machariel
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 12:44:00 -
[290] - Quote
My solution to this: Minimize the FOREX (with isk) aspect.
- Pay out LP based on destroyed LP cost of items (such that it's at best close to 100% conversion assuming tier 5 prices).
- Use the isk value only for items that cannot be purchased from any LP shop.
- Use base price for t1 modules/ships, limits price manipulation
This lets you convert 1 factions LP to another (with loss + isk input to LP store lost), by the goon's method. So lets you make money by FOREX between different factions LP (if one side's LP ends up worth much more than another). Sure this will make pirate faction ship kills worth much less, but puts it in line with insurance fraud.
Not sure about other exclusions for certain useless "trade goods".
What other isk price manipulation holes have I missed?? |
|
Vokanic
Nemitronix Inc
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 12:48:00 -
[291] - Quote
The morale of this story is: Dont be the ones doing the risky stuff (the 5 goons), be the coward making a smaller amount of isk by living off the secondary effects.
Hi Jade, hows that 8 bil?
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
489
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 14:24:00 -
[292] - Quote
The line is here!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyDbfCbQnH8
Hey CCP, can I have some complementary fanfest tickets for next year? A little love for the 5T that coulda been. |
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance United Outworlders
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 15:10:00 -
[293] - Quote
Out of curiosity, how many PLEX did they give you guys (or just you?) for finding / reporting this whole deal?
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
489
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 15:32:00 -
[294] - Quote
Ethilia wrote:Out of curiosity, how many PLEX did they give you guys (or just you?) for finding / reporting this whole deal?
None so far. We haven't gotten our capital back yet either. Waiting with baited breath on this so we can get busy on the next zany endevour. aka, Delve |
Kayrl Bheskagor
Hedion University Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 16:10:00 -
[295] - Quote
So, to get this straight, they exploited a huge hole created by CCP, they did this for 2 weeks, them and lots of their little buddies profited from this, not to mention the trickle down effect that affected positively and negatively many other players and the whole market in general, and instead of a ban, which is what the EULA says (CCP really needs to read it sometime), you're actually going to "award" Them multiple PLEX for exploiting the game? Wow. So with this pro-goon policy from CCP, above any of the rest of the player base, how many others at CCP are ex-goons, or goon sympathizes like Stoffer (aka Soundwave)? Not hard to understand the pro-goon war dec changes And the pro-goon exploit award of free PLEX. CCP seems determined to make 2012 more of an epic fail than last year, and the players numbers still haven't rebounded from last year. Well done. Another lost opportunity to show the player base that you know what you're doing, but all it really did was make CCP, what, 0 for 5 on major issues so far this year? |
Vokanic
Nemitronix Inc
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 16:39:00 -
[296] - Quote
Kayrl Bheskagor wrote:So, to get this straight, they exploited a huge hole created by CCP, they did this for 2 weeks, them and lots of their little buddies profited from this, not to mention the trickle down effect that affected positively and negatively many other players and the whole market in general, and instead of a ban, which is what the EULA says (CCP really needs to read it sometime), you're actually going to "award" Them multiple PLEX for exploiting the game? Wow. So with this pro-goon policy from CCP, above any of the rest of the player base, how many others at CCP are ex-goons, or goon sympathizes like Stoffer (aka Soundwave)? Not hard to understand the pro-goon war dec changes And the pro-goon exploit award of free PLEX. CCP seems determined to make 2012 more of an epic fail than last year, and the players numbers still haven't rebounded from last year. Well done. Another lost opportunity to show the player base that you know what you're doing, but all it really did was make CCP, what, 0 for 5 on major issues so far this year?
since when did 5 people = lots?
in the words of goons.. you mad bro? (in case you cant tell, I'm mocking you for being .. shall we say.. not the 1%?) |
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance United Outworlders
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 16:50:00 -
[297] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Ethilia wrote:Out of curiosity, how many PLEX did they give you guys (or just you?) for finding / reporting this whole deal? None so far. We haven't gotten our capital back yet either. Waiting with baited breath on this so we can get busy on the next zany endevour. aka, Delve Usually, hostile take overs by banks are done with $$$ and lawyers and not guns. Are you suggesting there will be a significant financial assault on Delve residents? If so I'd love to see a detailed post on how it was done and what impact it had. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
490
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 17:04:00 -
[298] - Quote
Ethilia wrote:Aryth wrote:Ethilia wrote:Out of curiosity, how many PLEX did they give you guys (or just you?) for finding / reporting this whole deal? None so far. We haven't gotten our capital back yet either. Waiting with baited breath on this so we can get busy on the next zany endevour. aka, Delve Usually, hostile take overs by banks are done with $$$ and lawyers and not guns. Are you suggesting there will be a significant financial assault on Delve residents? If so I'd love to see a detailed post on how it was done and what impact it had.
I run the ship supply program for GSF. I often use my personal ISK to backstop the program and to perform hostile market activities. Pretty standard stuff in bloc level warfare I would think. At least from our point of view. Just isn't talked about cause it's only a handful of players doing it. (with a lot of assets) |
Alikchi
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
61
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 17:27:00 -
[299] - Quote
Vokanic wrote: in the words of goons.. you mad bro?
If someone in GoonWaffe actually unironically used that phrase we'd probably shame him out of the alliance. |
Chicken W1ng
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 18:07:00 -
[300] - Quote
Vokanic wrote:Kayrl Bheskagor wrote:bla since when did 5 people = lots? in the words of goons.. you mad bro? (in case you cant tell, I'm mocking you for being .. shall we say.. not the 1%?)
And you are what? 1%? Rather one of the 105% of buttlickers that are around (given that some probably post with multiple accounts). |
|
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance United Outworlders
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 18:17:00 -
[301] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Ethilia wrote: Usually, hostile take overs by banks are done with $$$ and lawyers and not guns. Are you suggesting there will be a significant financial assault on Delve residents? If so I'd love to see a detailed post on how it was done and what impact it had.
I run the ship supply program for GSF. I often use my personal ISK to backstop the program and to perform hostile market activities. Pretty standard stuff in bloc level warfare I would think. At least from our point of view. Just isn't talked about cause it's only a handful of players doing it. (with a lot of assets)
Maybe this is common knowledge, but it seems a lot of bloc warfare is funded by a small # of very rich players. Can you give a guesstimate on bloc funding breakdown by 1. isk from alliance activities (Technetium mining, taxes, etc.) 2. Player activities (ratting, mining, etc.) and 3. Rich player activities (CEO/Director 'salary/bonuses', stupid scale investments - 250b+, etc.). I'd be very interested in even a hand wavey guesstimate on what % of bloc activity costs (sov, super caps, ship replacement, whatever) are funded by each.
|
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
63
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 18:26:00 -
[302] - Quote
Ethilia wrote:Aryth wrote:Ethilia wrote: Usually, hostile take overs by banks are done with $$$ and lawyers and not guns. Are you suggesting there will be a significant financial assault on Delve residents? If so I'd love to see a detailed post on how it was done and what impact it had.
I run the ship supply program for GSF. I often use my personal ISK to backstop the program and to perform hostile market activities. Pretty standard stuff in bloc level warfare I would think. At least from our point of view. Just isn't talked about cause it's only a handful of players doing it. (with a lot of assets) Maybe this is common knowledge, but it seems a lot of bloc warfare is funded by a small # of very rich players. Can you give a guesstimate on bloc funding breakdown by 1. isk from alliance activities (Technetium mining, taxes, etc.) 2. Player activities (ratting, mining, etc.) and 3. Rich player activities (CEO/Director 'salary/bonuses', stupid scale investments - 250b+, etc.). I'd be very interested in even a hand wavey guesstimate on what % of bloc activity costs (sov, super caps, ship replacement, whatever) are funded by each. a technetium moon is 12.6b a month in profit
do the math |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
493
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 18:29:00 -
[303] - Quote
Ethilia wrote:Aryth wrote:Ethilia wrote: Usually, hostile take overs by banks are done with $$$ and lawyers and not guns. Are you suggesting there will be a significant financial assault on Delve residents? If so I'd love to see a detailed post on how it was done and what impact it had.
I run the ship supply program for GSF. I often use my personal ISK to backstop the program and to perform hostile market activities. Pretty standard stuff in bloc level warfare I would think. At least from our point of view. Just isn't talked about cause it's only a handful of players doing it. (with a lot of assets) Maybe this is common knowledge, but it seems a lot of bloc warfare is funded by a small # of very rich players. Can you give a guesstimate on bloc funding breakdown by 1. isk from alliance activities (Technetium mining, taxes, etc.) 2. Player activities (ratting, mining, etc.) and 3. Rich player activities (CEO/Director 'salary/bonuses', stupid scale investments - 250b+, etc.). I'd be very interested in even a hand wavey guesstimate on what % of bloc activity costs (sov, super caps, ship replacement, whatever) are funded by each.
It's more complicated than that. It also varies from alliance to alliance. But in GENERAL.
Ship replacement programs are funded through alliance income. Tech/Ratting/POCO Taxes. Our finances are public, so you can see the exact amounts if you want.
SOV Structures/Fuel/POS's are also funded through alliance income.
Where it gets cloudy is the ancillary costs to war. Total war in EVE requires a great deal more than just #'s.
Example: Stocking the market in the front line stager. This is pretty much always done purely through private ISK. While some standardized fits may be stocked on contracts (we do this) and some is also private ISK, there are a great many more modules and hulls stocked on the market in addition to this. This is where private ISK comes in.
The other side of this coin is hostile manipulation. This also is purely private ISK, generally this means attacking the hostile staging market. Relisting critical modules for hilarious markup etc. This can also (and does in my case) extend to Jita. I may actively move major Jita markets as a part of war activity. Supply shortages are often artificial and caused by vast sums of private ISK.
Private ISK also is typically leveraged for super capital production. Supercap yards are hilariously expensive and this requires hundreds of billions of private capital.
So think of it sorta like a tight ball of alliance ISK, surrounded by a huge cloud of private wealth when alliances go to war. Everyone plays this on a slightly different level. I would say we do it better than anyone. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
542
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 18:33:00 -
[304] - Quote
Stocking our war markets is largely done by private players, for a profit. Aryth will tend to backstop war critical items with either his own personal money or alliance money, though, so as to prevent excessive price gouging. We're fine with goons war profiteering, it's when they get piggish on vital equipment that things get ugly (for them).
And then as aryth noted, there are things like capital and supercapital construction as well, which is also privately run. The biggest reason for this, really, is that its a truckload of work and no one would want to do it for free. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
63
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 19:17:00 -
[305] - Quote
Yeah, VFK (the GOON CAPITAL) is the 6th largest market hub in the game, and the top nullsec market hub
That has a lot to do with how we are able to do the things we do |
Hoarr
RPS holdings
28
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 19:30:00 -
[306] - Quote
Chicken W1ng wrote:Rather one of the 105% of buttlickers that are around (given that some probably post with multiple accounts).
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Butt lickers. SERIOUSLY? Kindergarten Comebacks FTW!
On a different note, congrats to Aryth and crew. This has been a hugely entertaining saga, and suff like this is one of the reasons why we all play EvE. This will only get more entertaining when CCP gives Jade Constantine 10 plex for reporting Aryth's twitter leak. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
495
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 19:48:00 -
[307] - Quote
Hoarr wrote:Chicken W1ng wrote:Rather one of the 105% of buttlickers that are around (given that some probably post with multiple accounts). HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Butt lickers. SERIOUSLY? Kindergarten Comebacks FTW! On a different note, congrats to Aryth and crew. This has been a hugely entertaining saga, and suff like this is one of the reasons why we all play EvE. This will only get more entertaining when CCP gives Jade Constantine 10 plex for reporting Aryth's twitter leak.
We made Jade 8b. He got paid already. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
542
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 19:53:00 -
[308] - Quote
That's three times that Jade's name has been invoked now, shouldn't he be here by now? I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Alain Kinsella
120
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 20:01:00 -
[309] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: That graph was generated as part of the investigation.
Wait, you don't have a matrix style wall of TVs showing Graphs of every possible bit of Economic activity in EvE? Well, why not? I can't speak for CCP, but that is what, but that's what the interior of the Goonwaffe Economic Cabal looks like.
I'd like to mention that its far easier these days to have monitoring tools collect and graph data points on a regular basis (such as Nagios/Icinga + PnP4Nagios - loving these two right now).
At Fanfest, it was mentioned that CCP is using the daily DB snapshot for its metrics, which will work, but is obviously time delayed. Do you have any plans to consider more active snapshots (say 4-6/day) or preparing queries that you can turn on for one day (similar to a network sniffer) to drill down better?
[Monitoring is one of my core responsibilities at work, so I admit all the new graphs I have access to through Icinga has made me like a kid in a candy store. ]
I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
|
Kayrl Bheskagor
Hedion University Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 20:07:00 -
[310] - Quote
Vokanic wrote:Kayrl Bheskagor wrote:So, to get this straight, they exploited a huge hole created by CCP, they did this for 2 weeks, them and lots of their little buddies profited from this, not to mention the trickle down effect that affected positively and negatively many other players and the whole market in general, and instead of a ban, which is what the EULA says (CCP really needs to read it sometime), you're actually going to "award" Them multiple PLEX for exploiting the game? Wow. So with this pro-goon policy from CCP, above any of the rest of the player base, how many others at CCP are ex-goons, or goon sympathizes like Stoffer (aka Soundwave)? Not hard to understand the pro-goon war dec changes And the pro-goon exploit award of free PLEX. CCP seems determined to make 2012 more of an epic fail than last year, and the players numbers still haven't rebounded from last year. Well done. Another lost opportunity to show the player base that you know what you're doing, but all it really did was make CCP, what, 0 for 5 on major issues so far this year? since when did 5 people = lots? in the words of goons.. you mad bro? (in case you cant tell, I'm mocking you for being .. shall we say.. not the 1%?)
So, you're a little goon puppet too, or you actually think that ONLY 5 people were involved with it and benefited from the exploit, not to mention everyone else that took advantage of the exploit over the TWO WEEKS? In the words of people that can think on their own (aka NOT the goons) . . . you THINK, bro??
and no, I'm not mad that I am not a cheat. I'm an adult. |
|
Zendi Marr
Imperial Star Guards Amarr 7th Fleet
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 20:33:00 -
[311] - Quote
I read they made, in game time, equivalent to 170.000 USD. That is quite an exploit. |
Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putain
Remanaquie Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 22:12:00 -
[312] - Quote
Seems to me CCP is just trying to brush this one under the carpet instead of accepting the fact they messed up big time and they're the only ones at fault. This is no different from the older insurance payouts which so many people abused of until it got changed. But classifying it as an exploit only shows a complete detachment either from reality or the English language. By their own admission:
CCP Sreegs wrote:This can be compared to foreign exchange manipulation.
Now we have all heard of this before, sure. And it's called this for a reason. Ever heard anyone calling it foreign exhange exploit? |
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance United Outworlders
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 22:49:00 -
[313] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Ethilia wrote: Maybe this is common knowledge, but it seems a lot of bloc warfare is funded by a small # of very rich players. Can you give a guesstimate on bloc funding breakdown by 1. isk from alliance activities (Technetium mining, taxes, etc.) 2. Player activities (ratting, mining, etc.) and 3. Rich player activities (CEO/Director 'salary/bonuses', stupid scale investments - 250b+, etc.). I'd be very interested in even a hand wavey guesstimate on what % of bloc activity costs (sov, super caps, ship replacement, whatever) are funded by each.
It's more complicated than that. It also varies from alliance to alliance. But in GENERAL. Ship replacement programs are funded through alliance income. Tech/Ratting/POCO Taxes. Our finances are public, so you can see the exact amounts if you want. SOV Structures/Fuel/POS's are also funded through alliance income. Where it gets cloudy is the ancillary costs to war. Total war in EVE requires a great deal more than just #'s. Example: Stocking the market in the front line stager. This is pretty much always done purely through private ISK. While some standardized fits may be stocked on contracts (we do this) and some is also private ISK, there are a great many more modules and hulls stocked on the market in addition to this. This is where private ISK comes in. The other side of this coin is hostile manipulation. This also is purely private ISK, generally this means attacking the hostile staging market. Relisting critical modules for hilarious markup etc. This can also (and does in my case) extend to Jita. I may actively move major Jita markets as a part of war activity. Supply shortages are often artificial and caused by vast sums of private ISK. Private ISK also is typically leveraged for super capital production. Supercap yards are hilariously expensive and this requires hundreds of billions of private capital. So think of it sorta like a tight ball of alliance ISK, surrounded by a huge cloud of private wealth when alliances go to war. Everyone plays this on a slightly different level. I would say we do it better than anyone.
So in summary Eve's economy really is at the mercy of a plutocracy ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy ). Goons tight ball of alliance isk is stupidly huge I'm sure and if private Goonie wealth dwarfs that.... At least Goons spend on their members. Somehow, I doubt it's like that in many of Eve's more powerful alliances.
Do you have a link to Goon finances? My googlefu must be off today.
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
543
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 23:13:00 -
[314] - Quote
Ethilia wrote:So in summary Eve's economy really is at the mercy of a plutocracy ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy ). Goons tight ball of alliance isk is stupidly huge I'm sure and if private Goonie wealth dwarfs that.... At least Goons spend on their members. Somehow, I doubt it's like that in many of Eve's more powerful alliances. Well its not like burn jita, hulkageddon, OTEC and the ice interdiction from last year are all interconnected somehow. What kind of crazy conspiracist would believe THAT?
Ethilia wrote:Do you have a link to Goon finances? My googlefu must be off today.
Your googlefu is just fine, but needless to say we don't typically make that sort of thing public. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
VaL Iscariot
The Concilium Enterprises Spectrum Alliance
45
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 23:48:00 -
[315] - Quote
should of just banned them. |
Youli Kepain
Scapegoats
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 23:49:00 -
[316] - Quote
Lets see how badly I will get flamed for this...
After all this is now done(more or less), there is only one thing left to say to the 5 Gentlemen responsible: Well played, Sirs, well played. |
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance United Outworlders
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 23:57:00 -
[317] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Ethilia wrote:So in summary Eve's economy really is at the mercy of a plutocracy ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy ). Goons tight ball of alliance isk is stupidly huge I'm sure and if private Goonie wealth dwarfs that.... At least Goons spend on their members. Somehow, I doubt it's like that in many of Eve's more powerful alliances. Well its not like burn jita, hulkageddon, OTEC and the ice interdiction from last year are all interconnected somehow. What kind of crazy conspiracist would believe THAT?
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Goon rule Eve ... yet. The economic strings of power are controlled by the << '1%' though it seems.
corestwo wrote:Ethilia wrote:Do you have a link to Goon finances? My googlefu must be off today.
Your googlefu is just fine, but needless to say we don't typically make that sort of thing public.
Then my reading comprehension must be bust:
Aryth wrote:Ship replacement programs are funded through alliance income. Tech/Ratting/POCO Taxes. Our finances are public, so you can see the exact amounts if you want.
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
543
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 00:23:00 -
[318] - Quote
Youli Kepain wrote:Lets see how badly I will get flamed for this...
After all this is now done(more or less), there is only one thing left to say to the 5 Gentlemen responsible: Well played, Sirs, well played. It was a common sentiment in our reveal thread, so you won't necessarily get as flamed as you think... :)
Ethilia wrote:Then my reading comprehension must be bust: Aryth wrote:Ship replacement programs are funded through alliance income. Tech/Ratting/POCO Taxes. Our finances are public, so you can see the exact amounts if you want.
News to me. I know we have an internal auditor but I can't seem to figure out where the public bit comes from. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
496
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 00:29:00 -
[319] - Quote
We provide this to all our members/allies etc. It's public. So you can see, at the large alliance level, it's a different game. Luckily for you guys, we mostly spend it pounding other null sec alliances to death. Which is as it should be. Only when we get bored do we go to high-sec and lay waste.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlIIq5agK7rWdDRnaWwzMVRrYTFCTG1sZEJhTWN1Z1E&authkey=CMng2u0B&hl=en&authkey=CMng2u0B#gid=5 |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
543
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 00:43:00 -
[320] - Quote
I guess I look pretty dumb now :welp: I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
496
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 01:02:00 -
[321] - Quote
corestwo wrote:I guess I look pretty dumb now :welp:
That's why he's Riker and I'm Picard.
A Picard with an Eyepatch, and a black Hat.
ARRRRR |
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance United Outworlders
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 01:04:00 -
[322] - Quote
Holy monkey balls! Where does all that extra isk go? If that monthly surplus is any indication there must be 100's of trillions of isk sloshing around the various bloc wallets .
Also, I find it amusing we cannot dress links properly on the forums. I guess CCP likes undressed ... links. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
543
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 01:05:00 -
[323] - Quote
Aryth wrote:corestwo wrote:I guess I look pretty dumb now :welp: That's why he's Riker and I'm Picard. A Picard with an Eyepatch, and a black Hat. ARRRRR Better analogy? You're Kirk, I'm Spock. That is, you have all the ideas, and I do all the hard thinkin'. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance United Outworlders
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 01:05:00 -
[324] - Quote
corestwo wrote:I guess I look pretty dumb now :welp:
I generally assume I'm an idiot and thereby am pleasantly surprised once in a while ,
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
496
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 01:06:00 -
[325] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Aryth wrote:corestwo wrote:I guess I look pretty dumb now :welp: That's why he's Riker and I'm Picard. A Picard with an Eyepatch, and a black Hat. ARRRRR Better analogy? You're Kirk, I'm Spock. That is, you have all the ideas, and I do all the hard thinkin'.
Yep, I get all the space hookers. And the coke. Can't forget all the coke.
Edit: and then I self-destruct said hookers in my personal game of EVE survivor. |
Zastrow
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
65
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 04:23:00 -
[326] - Quote
meanwhile I get BAD INVESTMENT ADVICE FROM ARYTH
yo ccp make this man whole he owes me 2 bil T W O BILLION INTERSTELLAR KREDITs or islandic kronur i'll take whatever |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1967
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 04:24:00 -
[327] - Quote
Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putain wrote:Seems to me CCP is just trying to brush this one under the carpet instead of accepting the fact they messed up big time and they're the only ones at fault. This is no different from the older insurance payouts which so many people abused of until it got changed. But classifying it as an exploit only shows a complete detachment either from reality or the English language. By their own admission: CCP Sreegs wrote:This can be compared to foreign exchange manipulation. Now we have all heard of this before, sure. And it's called this for a reason. Ever heard anyone calling it foreign exhange exploit? Let the sandbox play itself out, small government yea!
Yes we're trying to brush it under the carpet so much we made a dev blog about it. I really can't even address how much this is just UGH and this is the basis of every tinfoil situation I'm meant to deal with professionally. I have no words. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
177
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 04:31:00 -
[328] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putain wrote:Seems to me CCP is just trying to brush this one under the carpet instead of accepting the fact they messed up big time and they're the only ones at fault. This is no different from the older insurance payouts which so many people abused of until it got changed. But classifying it as an exploit only shows a complete detachment either from reality or the English language. By their own admission: CCP Sreegs wrote:This can be compared to foreign exchange manipulation. Now we have all heard of this before, sure. And it's called this for a reason. Ever heard anyone calling it foreign exhange exploit? Let the sandbox play itself out, small government yea! Yes we're trying to brush it under the carpet so much we made a dev blog about it. I really can't even address how much this is just UGH and this is the basis of every tinfoil situation I'm meant to deal with professionally. I have no words.
I almost always have words.
Reynold's Kitchen.com is >>>> Thataway!
They're not always useful.
(I'm honestly not sure there's much life left in this thread for productive discussion. You should see if you can strike a deal with Reynolds for a percentage of the sales you'll generate when you eventually close the thread.) -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance United Outworlders
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 04:48:00 -
[329] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putain wrote:Seems to me CCP is just trying to brush this one under the carpet instead of accepting the fact they messed up big time and they're the only ones at fault. This is no different from the older insurance payouts which so many people abused of until it got changed. But classifying it as an exploit only shows a complete detachment either from reality or the English language. By their own admission: CCP Sreegs wrote:This can be compared to foreign exchange manipulation. Now we have all heard of this before, sure. And it's called this for a reason. Ever heard anyone calling it foreign exhange exploit? Let the sandbox play itself out, small government yea! Yes we're trying to brush it under the carpet so much we made a dev blog about it. I really can't even address how much this is just UGH and this is the basis of every tinfoil situation I'm meant to deal with professionally. I have no words.
Let me tell you what's really infuriating! I have it on good authority everyone in CCP alliance has by far the best carebearing space anywhere! What is worse is that they are paid in a special currency, krona or some such, which has a fantastic exchange rate. They are paid massive amounts of this currency and allowed to exchange it for oodles of PLEX or, if they want, real $$$ like USD or EURO (I guess they need lots of beer and chips while carebearing in Reykjavik system).
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
366
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 04:58:00 -
[330] - Quote
Well Lord Zim was right, goons don't get banned for this kind of thing.
The post on the Dev blog "I wrote a blog on "Responsible Disclosures" a year or so ago. In that blog I mention that telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system."
It shows as such a good warning "Do what ever you want and we will just roll everything back to pretend it didn't happen." Yeah Good deterant that one.
I at least hope the other members of the 5 are going to shank the snitch. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
|
Comrade Sesk
Kitsune Holdings Inc.
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 05:51:00 -
[331] - Quote
I'm not happy CCP is not punishing exploiters. |
Cybarite
YARRRDIES Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 07:55:00 -
[332] - Quote
oh god, grey area people, the plain fact is they don't want to discourage people from pushing the limits because the things that come of it are their best marketing tools.
Could we please just beat on the devs a little for implementing an open ended system with market manipulation vulnerabilities? I mean come on, this was inevitable as soon as they went live with such a half baked feature. |
Cerebral Wolf
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 10:37:00 -
[333] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:
I at least hope the other members of the 5 are going to shank the snitch.
There was no single snitch, The whole thing was planned to be shown to CCP all along, they never planned to continue to use it after pointing it out to CCP and after CCP had addressed it. |
Cerebral Wolf
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 10:43:00 -
[334] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Well its not like burn jita, hulkageddon, OTEC and the ice interdiction from last year are all interconnected somehow. What kind of crazy conspiracist would believe THAT?
If only i could use all the info we have to actually profit on this like you guys i'd be happy. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1969
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 10:50:00 -
[335] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Well Lord Zim was right, goons don't get banned for this kind of thing.
The post on the Dev blog "I wrote a blog on "Responsible Disclosures" a year or so ago. In that blog I mention that telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system."
It shows as such a good warning "Do what ever you want and we will just roll everything back to pretend it didn't happen." Yeah Good deterant that one.
I at least hope the other members of the 5 are going to shank the snitch.
hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps
I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 12:24:00 -
[336] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: To clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it. Then don't release stupid expansions that weren't tested properly, like very bad UI and FW exploits. Do more testing and ask players to test stuff out first and tell their opinion about it, not just release expansion that is crap. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1969
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 13:33:00 -
[337] - Quote
Spc One wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: To clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it. Then don't release stupid expansions that weren't tested properly, like very bad UI and FW exploits. Do more testing and ask players to test stuff out first and tell their opinion about it, not just release expansion that is crap.
This valuable feedback will be noted. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
452
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 13:40:00 -
[338] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Spc One wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: To clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it. Then don't release stupid expansions that weren't tested properly, like very bad UI and FW exploits. Do more testing and ask players to test stuff out first and tell their opinion about it, not just release expansion that is crap. This valuable feedback will be noted.
lmao!!!! i love ccp...
PLEX FOR PIZZA! -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
452
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 13:42:00 -
[339] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Well Lord Zim was right, goons don't get banned for this kind of thing.
The post on the Dev blog "I wrote a blog on "Responsible Disclosures" a year or so ago. In that blog I mention that telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system."
It shows as such a good warning "Do what ever you want and we will just roll everything back to pretend it didn't happen." Yeah Good deterant that one.
I at least hope the other members of the 5 are going to shank the snitch. hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game
yeah but you cant ban this guy!
PLEX FOR PIZZA! -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Hoarr
RPS holdings
29
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 14:29:00 -
[340] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Spc One wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: To clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it. Then don't release stupid expansions that weren't tested properly, like very bad UI and FW exploits. Do more testing and ask players to test stuff out first and tell their opinion about it, not just release expansion that is crap. This valuable feedback will be noted.
Hahahahaha. Exasperated Sreegs best Sreegs |
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
502
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 18:26:00 -
[341] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.
I missed this the first time through.
The reason this was so grey to us it, the last time this very scenerio happened, for months on end, with CCP's full knowlege, you allowed all the profits to stand. Insurance fraud did exactly this, except worse as it printed ISK itself, not LP. You broke your spacelamp and got back more ISK than you paid. People blew up thousands of ships each and raked in fortunes. To us, this was no different. I know you guys don't agree, but that is where we are coming from. There was precedent. |
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance United Outworlders
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 19:23:00 -
[342] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. I missed this the first time through. The reason this was so grey to us it, the last time this very scenerio happened, for months on end, with CCP's full knowlege, you allowed all the profits to stand. Insurance fraud did exactly this, except worse as it printed ISK itself, not LP. You broke your spacelamp and got back more ISK than you paid. People blew up thousands of ships each and raked in fortunes. To us, this was no different. I know you guys don't agree, but that is where we are coming from. There was precedent.
Here are some key differences I see: your plan was implemented at full strength shortly after a new mechanic change (as opposed to an old mechanic slowly becoming a problem), was a lot more sophisticated, required a great deal more high level manipulation on several fronts, was not common knowledge, and only a few players had an opportunity to profit from it. In terms of 'printing isk' from nowhere, I agree the insurance fraud was way worse.
* bolded is easiest to 'correct' via punishments, but maybe w/ PLEX you'll end up liking said punishments. |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 19:44:00 -
[343] - Quote
I'm new to this game but i have a fair grasp of economics.
But all i see here is goons accumulating much of the ingame currency, having it seized before being able to use it (by reporting it) and therefore alleviating a lot of the natural inflation that comes with the age of the game.
So really didnt the goons just do the whole game a great service? |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
545
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 20:27:00 -
[344] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:I'm new to this game but i have a fair grasp of economics.
But all i see here is goons accumulating much of the ingame currency, having it seized before being able to use it (by reporting it) and therefore alleviating a lot of the natural inflation that comes with the age of the game.
So really didnt the goons just do the whole game a great service? Inflation would come from new currency being injected into the game, which never happened during this whole thing - quite the opposite, since redeeming LP costs isk. We'd already taken large amounts of isk out of circulation and would have taken something like 2T more between Aryth & I alone had we kept it.
Pretty small pennies for countering inflation when new isk injected into the game is grossing on the order of 40-50T monthly though (note that that's just the faucets, I don't have as good a handle on the sinks) I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance United Outworlders
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 20:38:00 -
[345] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:I'm new to this game but i have a fair grasp of economics.
But all i see here is goons accumulating much of the ingame currency, having it seized before being able to use it (by reporting it) and therefore alleviating a lot of the natural inflation that comes with the age of the game.
So really didnt the goons just do the whole game a great service? Inflation would come from new currency being injected into the game, which never happened during this whole thing - quite the opposite, since redeeming LP costs isk. We'd already taken large amounts of isk out of circulation and would have taken something like 2T more between Aryth & I alone had we kept it. Pretty small pennies for countering inflation when new isk injected into the game is grossing on the order of 40-50T monthly though (note that that's just the faucets, I don't have as good a handle on the sinks)
You could change all the isk sinks to 0.0 and probably not increase the amount of net isk injection by more than 20%. I really wonder what is holding back hyper inflation instead of the relatively mild inflation we have now. Eve simple isn't expanding its player base and net ingame assets by a rate necessary to keep up with all the new isk.
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
545
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:21:00 -
[346] - Quote
Part of it, I think, is that the only thing that necessarily scales in cost with inflation is gametime in the form of plexes. Raw materials themselves tend to be driven by straight up supply & demand, and manufactured goods have their prices track raw materials relatively closely thanks to race to the bottom effects - anyone can build anything, provided they have the proper skills, so the price is dictated by those who will build for the lowest profits. Inflation, therefore, never really enters the equation. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:40:00 -
[347] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:I'm new to this game but i have a fair grasp of economics.
But all i see here is goons accumulating much of the ingame currency, having it seized before being able to use it (by reporting it) and therefore alleviating a lot of the natural inflation that comes with the age of the game.
So really didnt the goons just do the whole game a great service? Inflation would come from new currency being injected into the game, which never happened during this whole thing - quite the opposite, since redeeming LP costs isk. We'd already taken large amounts of isk out of circulation and would have taken something like 2T more between Aryth & I alone had we kept it. Pretty small pennies for countering inflation when new isk injected into the game is grossing on the order of 40-50T monthly though (note that that's just the faucets, I don't have as good a handle on the sinks)
You misunderstood me.
Inflation is a natural part of any mmo, more people join more people make money, smalle exploits here and there that aren't caught in time ETC.
If i understand correctly: what the goons did with this is siphon off HUGE amounts of existing ISK from players (ISK did not come from nowhere) and it is now locked up and the LP is also frozen/removed.
But if what you say is correct that 40-50T ISK is created every month, I guess it didn't have that much of an effect. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
145
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 22:10:00 -
[348] - Quote
Im just going to leave this here,
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1273664#post1273664
Can i get my free plex now?
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Ships to goo calc - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107898 |
Helena Russell Makanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
70
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 02:04:00 -
[349] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps
I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game
So goons take advantage of an exploit, profit from it, then their accounts are left in good standing and even plex awarded, because they at some point sent that information to ccp.
I may be wrong, but didn't you ban the guy (non-goon) who did the same thing when he exposed an exploit with the first opening of these new forums - where no one paid attention to his warnings until he exploited it as proof? I can't remember if it was a lifetime ban, but I know he was banned, and without making a cent.
How is this case so very different? |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute
56
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 02:18:00 -
[350] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Other posts bring up a intersting point though. If in the future, after the system is fixed/revamped whatever. If this becomes slightly possible again but not to the degree shown here, would that be legal? I am not trying to words lawyer, just trying to see where the boundary is.
Once something is reported, and time gone by to remediate, does anything after that pass muster?
You could just, ya know, play the game the way it was intended to be played. The fact that boundaries can even be a topic is rather sad. |
|
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 03:39:00 -
[351] - Quote
Two weeks to report the exploit. The only reason they fessed up is because CCP knew something was going on and changed things on them mid-stream. The monetary penalty is a slap on the hand. What joke. At a minimum a 30 day ban should have been handed out.
That Goons continue to get preferential treatment is obvious.
Weak, CCP. Weak. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
190
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 03:44:00 -
[352] - Quote
Chicken Pizza wrote:Aryth wrote:Other posts bring up a intersting point though. If in the future, after the system is fixed/revamped whatever. If this becomes slightly possible again but not to the degree shown here, would that be legal? I am not trying to words lawyer, just trying to see where the boundary is.
Once something is reported, and time gone by to remediate, does anything after that pass muster? You could just, ya know, play the game the way it was intended to be played. The fact that boundaries can even be a topic is rather sad.
Gonna quit using Local as an Intel tool?
Gonna quit Jetcan mining?
CCP didn't intend for either of those when they introduced the mechanics, they're something that emerged from the game mechanics when people played with them. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
EvEa Deva
State War Academy Caldari State
50
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 04:00:00 -
[353] - Quote
posting in a goon/dev pet thread they get along so well |
Russell Casey
Goldbug Inc.
169
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 04:30:00 -
[354] - Quote
Still can't believe they introduced a system that rewarded you for killing other players in a game that's 70% alts. |
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
52
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 04:49:00 -
[355] - Quote
Spc One wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: To clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it. Then don't release stupid expansions that weren't tested properly, like very bad UI and FW exploits. Do more testing and ask players to test stuff out first and tell their opinion about it, not just release expansion that is crap.
Gosh, maybe you should be a dev. I bet you would have every problem in the game fixed in two weeks flat. A good predator knows how to live in balance with his prey, lest he follow them into oblivion. |
Shameless Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 07:09:00 -
[356] - Quote
This has been 18 pages of pure entertainment. I had to refill my popcorn bowl twice. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
192
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 07:23:00 -
[357] - Quote
Russell Casey wrote:Still can't believe they introduced a system that rewarded you for killing other players in a game that's 70% alts.
But they weren't expecting collusion between those alts. I mean, who would? -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
214
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 13:26:00 -
[358] - Quote
Quote:I wrote a blog on "Responsible Disclosures" a year or so ago. In that blog I mention that telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system. I can understand a desire to test the limits but we don't believe two weeks of testing a bug or exploit should net a tremendous benefit in lieu of reporting it in the first place, and that is another reason why the LP activity will be reversed back to zero. And if it hadn't been members of a cash rich and PR Golden Goose Null Monkey Herd?
Exploiting the snot out of something for TWO weeks and only officially reporting it when the noose tightens as bughunters/devs close in on the anomaly should at the very least be prolonged temporary bans as well as confiscation of all ill-gotten goods and an investigation into the effects of those five holier-than-though exploiters (LOL!) LP dumps into the FW sovereignty mechanic.
What is the contact details to internal affairs again .. I'd like to report the matter of favouritism from the GM employees towards the population of just one of the corners of the Glorious Sandbox at the expense of another. While null may or may not be the de facto "end game" (even though you deny the existence of such), crapping on all the rest of the areas of Eve (except worms) by doing diddly makes me think that CCP has internally decided to prop up null when/where possible regardless .. since that is more than likely the case, how about putting everything on hold and sorting out the atrocious **** called Null so that everyone can get to try out the non-existent end game of Eve without having to submit to hourly cavity searches and suffering from brain oozing out of ones ears from boredom (looking at you EHP grinds!).
Bad GMs. Bad! |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
977
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 22:31:00 -
[359] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Exploiting the snot out of something for TWO weeks and only officially reporting it when the noose tightens as bughunters/devs close in on the anomaly should at the very least be prolonged temporary bans as well as confiscation of all ill-gotten goods and an investigation into the effects of those five holier-than-though exploiters (LOL!) LP dumps into the FW sovereignty mechanic.
You mad Bro?? You sound like you could be mad. |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
96
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 23:11:00 -
[360] - Quote
Ok, some folks saw an exploitable condition about to be released, exploited for quite some time after release, manipulated an entire feature (FW), and as far as I can tell bragged about crashing the market for certain items.
CCP agrees that this is not the proper way of doing so, but the offending accounts will remain in good (not neutral) standing (this leads people to believe that no punishment was given). If writing about the proper way to report exploits was not effective to prevent this exploit from being properly reported, what makes you think people will not have fun like this again if all you did in this case was basicly not much apart from rewarding undesired behaviour and writing another time that this is not the way to do this? "We will watch what they do, not what they say." goes for us players as well, you know? I'm not saying that the exploiters should be punished, but rewarding them, publicly, seems to me to be a bit...odd.
CCP Sreegs wrote:[hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps
I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game I'm pretty sure line 1 is proven wrong by line 2, among other things. Join in game channel/mailing list: New Eden Racing Sub-warp racing event thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107164 |
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
199
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 00:07:00 -
[361] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:Ok, some folks saw an exploitable condition about to be released, exploited for quite some time after release, manipulated an entire feature (FW), and as far as I can tell bragged about crashing the market for certain items.
People pointed out that this would be exploitable when it was proposed at fanfest. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
545
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 00:36:00 -
[362] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:[hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps
I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game I'm pretty sure line 1 is proven wrong by line 2, among other things. He can tell you that he has banned many people, he cannot tell you the details about those who he has banned.
The two lines are not mutually exclusive and neither proves the other wrong. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Guards Black Core Alliance
25
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 05:02:00 -
[363] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Inflation would come from new currency being injected into the game, which never happened during this whole thing - quite the opposite, since redeeming LP costs isk. We'd already taken large amounts of isk out of circulation and would have taken something like 2T more between Aryth & I alone had we kept it. LP is a currency. http://d.asset.soup.io/asset/1579/1917_fe03.gif |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
545
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 05:40:00 -
[364] - Quote
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:corestwo wrote:Inflation would come from new currency being injected into the game, which never happened during this whole thing - quite the opposite, since redeeming LP costs isk. We'd already taken large amounts of isk out of circulation and would have taken something like 2T more between Aryth & I alone had we kept it. LP is a currency.
Have a point there, Mr Pedant, but isk inflation is what everyone talking about inflation in Eve is concerned about. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 07:09:00 -
[365] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:I'm pretty sure line 1 is proven wrong by line 2, among other things.
Wow you're dense.
|
David Cedarbridge
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
251
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 07:26:00 -
[366] - Quote
Alikchi wrote:Vokanic wrote: in the words of goons.. you mad bro?
If someone in GoonWaffe actually unironically used that phrase we'd probably shame him out of the alliance.
Xython wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:Exploiting the snot out of something for TWO weeks and only officially reporting it when the noose tightens as bughunters/devs close in on the anomaly should at the very least be prolonged temporary bans as well as confiscation of all ill-gotten goods and an investigation into the effects of those five holier-than-though exploiters (LOL!) LP dumps into the FW sovereignty mechanic.
You mad Bro?? You sound like you could be mad.
Don't worry guys, I've got this one. |
Iris Dement
Griffin Capsuleers Ad-Astra
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 14:55:00 -
[367] - Quote
Very disappointing response from CCP, not even really a slap on the wrist to people who blatantly cheat. Instead, highfives all around. Permanent bans would have been a better idea. Shouldn't the message to the playerbase be that using exploits will get you banned? Instead, it's that using exploits is totally cool and you may even be rewarded.
|
Kayrl Bheskagor
Hedion University Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 17:13:00 -
[368] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Well Lord Zim was right, goons don't get banned for this kind of thing.
The post on the Dev blog "I wrote a blog on "Responsible Disclosures" a year or so ago. In that blog I mention that telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system."
It shows as such a good warning "Do what ever you want and we will just roll everything back to pretend it didn't happen." Yeah Good deterant that one.
I at least hope the other members of the 5 are going to shank the snitch. hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game
Riiiiight. Of course you can't say who you've banned. If you DID name names, that would "only" show the entire player base that people that abuse the system actually ARE held accountable. That wouldn't do. We can't have CCP demonstrating that they are thinking about the entire player base here. Instead though, with ex goons working at CCP, and more and more game changes favouring big null sec alliances (like the war dec re-nerf), and then of course giving plex to exploiting null sec players, well, that shows ALL KINDS of accountability, doesn't it? |
David Cedarbridge
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
251
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 17:33:00 -
[369] - Quote
Kayrl Bheskagor wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Well Lord Zim was right, goons don't get banned for this kind of thing.
The post on the Dev blog "I wrote a blog on "Responsible Disclosures" a year or so ago. In that blog I mention that telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system."
It shows as such a good warning "Do what ever you want and we will just roll everything back to pretend it didn't happen." Yeah Good deterant that one.
I at least hope the other members of the 5 are going to shank the snitch. hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game Riiiiight. Of course you can't say who you've banned. If you DID name names, that would "only" show the entire player base that people that abuse the system actually ARE held accountable. That wouldn't do. We can't have CCP demonstrating that they are thinking about the entire player base here. Instead though, with ex goons working at CCP, and more and more game changes favouring big null sec alliances (like the war dec re-nerf), and then of course giving plex to exploiting null sec players, well, that shows ALL KINDS of accountability, doesn't it?
I was planning on making baked potatoes today, but I found that somebody had purchased all of the tin foil. Can I borrow yours? It seems you have a surplus. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
546
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 17:44:00 -
[370] - Quote
Kayrl Bheskagor wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Well Lord Zim was right, goons don't get banned for this kind of thing.
The post on the Dev blog "I wrote a blog on "Responsible Disclosures" a year or so ago. In that blog I mention that telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system."
It shows as such a good warning "Do what ever you want and we will just roll everything back to pretend it didn't happen." Yeah Good deterant that one.
I at least hope the other members of the 5 are going to shank the snitch. hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game Riiiiight. Of course you can't say who you've banned. If you DID name names, that would "only" show the entire player base that people that abuse the system actually ARE held accountable. That wouldn't do. We can't have CCP demonstrating that they are thinking about the entire player base here. Instead though, with ex goons working at CCP, and more and more game changes favouring big null sec alliances (like the war dec re-nerf), and then of course giving plex to exploiting null sec players, well, that shows ALL KINDS of accountability, doesn't it?
CCP has named names exactly twice in the history of the game that I can recall when they've taken punitive action, and in both cases it involved a member of the CSM where explanation was necessary anyway - Mittani with the fanfest fiasco, and dude who's name I can't remember anymore for insider trading...and I don't think he was even banned for it.
But hey man, keep raging against CCP for a policy that's been in place for approximately "forever". I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
|
Diametrix
22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 05:24:00 -
[371] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo.
Fair enough. I hope you're having a good long conversation about how to fix Forex markets to keep them from being manipulated. It would be spectacular to see CCP be the first Gaming company win the Nobel Prize for Economics. I pitched a possible solution. We spent days theorycrafting a fix that preserves the system without making it gameable to a degree you are profiting on the conversion. You might still profit on the market manip, but not the conversion itself. This might be an acceptable solution to CCP, who knows. I hope they don't gut it though.
Although I cannot do it on behalf of the whole EVE community and CCP, Aryth & Co., Thank you for using the metagame and your obvious interest in seeing how deep the sandbox can go to protect and improve the future of EVE Online. |
Udonor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 10:44:00 -
[372] - Quote
Well if you don't want market to be manipulated...
try only adding last sale price to market average when an item is mounted on a ship or otherwise put into use.
People are unlikely to waste their time mounting several hundred modules let alone hundreds of thousands. Time vs ISK.
Each item can just carry around its last sale price until that magic moment its put in use the first time after sale. Then its in use flag remains set until sold again. (Resets on repackaging would be very exploitable way of tracking retail use.)
As it is now market average mixes wholesale prices with retail. So last I knew you could just repaetedly buy and sell items between your alts or corp members (wholesale) to juice price up or down in market -- all items and ISK stay ing in friendly hands.
LOL in real world buy orders would be considered more like a separate futures market as until fillled the items might not exist. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
366
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 10:59:00 -
[373] - Quote
Xython wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:Exploiting the snot out of something for TWO weeks and only officially reporting it when the noose tightens as bughunters/devs close in on the anomaly should at the very least be prolonged temporary bans as well as confiscation of all ill-gotten goods and an investigation into the effects of those five holier-than-though exploiters (LOL!) LP dumps into the FW sovereignty mechanic.
You mad Bro?? You sound like you could be mad. Did BoB used to say the same thing to Goonswarm, when you guys accused CCP of favoritism towards BoB? Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Almiel
3
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 16:24:00 -
[374] - Quote
In cases of exploit, I think the "Name and shame" system is a good one. I doubt most of the perpetrators would mind, in fact, I would bet they like the infamy. Meanwhile it allows the Eve player base to focus there anger or outrage and really, the consequences to the shamed players would be punishment enough i.e hate mails, convos, de-valuation of their character etc. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
549
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:10:00 -
[375] - Quote
Almiel wrote:In cases of exploit, I think the "Name and shame" system is a good one. I doubt most of the perpetrators would mind, in fact, I would bet they like the infamy. Meanwhile it allows the Eve player base to focus there anger or outrage and really, the consequences to the shamed players would be punishment enough i.e hate mails, convos, de-valuation of their character etc. I have received zero hate mails or convos.
I feel neglected :( . |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
237
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:35:00 -
[376] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Almiel wrote:In cases of exploit, I think the "Name and shame" system is a good one. I doubt most of the perpetrators would mind, in fact, I would bet they like the infamy. Meanwhile it allows the Eve player base to focus there anger or outrage and really, the consequences to the shamed players would be punishment enough i.e hate mails, convos, de-valuation of their character etc. I have received zero hate mails or convos. I feel neglected :(
Fixed. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
549
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:53:00 -
[377] - Quote
yay ^_____^ . |
Abulurd Boniface
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:55:00 -
[378] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Spc One wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: To clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it. Then don't release stupid expansions that weren't tested properly, like very bad UI and FW exploits. Do more testing and ask players to test stuff out first and tell their opinion about it, not just release expansion that is crap. This valuable feedback will be noted.
It can't really be all that much fun trying to stomp out this particular fire, can it
I wonder how that was listed on the job description sheet: "Interacting with the player community on a regular basis, defending the companies position and clarifying points of policy."
|
Aemonchichi
Limited Access Guardian Society
32
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 19:03:00 -
[379] - Quote
ccp sreegs can u explain why ccp in this situation decided not to punish the exploiters ? |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
147
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 23:38:00 -
[380] - Quote
I think that what this really means is that if you are going to exploit a game system, you have to make it epic and then brag about it.
While i am not a fan of the goons in general, this is one of the more entertaining things ive seen on these forums in a while. For most of the past two months Ive been posting about various other issues within the game, and the concentrated effort on CCP's part to do nothing right.
Not only did I post about this potential gaming of the system on 5/9 (before it was released on tq) but i completely failed to fully envision the scope to which it should have been used.
Freighters? wow. Had i the alts and the time i would have been popping frigates, or even cruisers. but i didnt realize the mobilization that you (the goons) would apply to this.
But,
Sirs, I applaud you.
I dont like goons, and i probably never will, but if you are gonna do it, do it in style.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Ships to goo calc - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107898 |
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
990
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 01:48:00 -
[381] - Quote
Aemonchichi wrote:ccp sreegs can u explain why ccp in this situation decided not to punish the exploiters ?
Because it technically wasn't an exploit. If the Faction Five had limited themselves to 5 billion instead of 5 trillion ISK, they wouldn't have done anything and would have just adjusted the game mechanics quietly.
Or, more likely, CCP would have ignored the poorly designed mechanics and it would have been 5 Quadrillion ISK spread out across 12 months and 1000 players instead of 5 trillion across 5.
And, there's that nasty thing about how the "exploiters" warned CCP about this being a bad idea and then gave them full disclosure about what they had done afterwards, meaning that technically speaking, they were being the good guys here.
Which is why "the exploiters" were given PLEXes for their troubles.
Personally, I think CCP should have just converted the 5 trillion to PLEX and auto-applied it to the players' accounts rather than let them have the PLEX directly. Brilliant players should be rewarded, after all. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
549
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 02:50:00 -
[382] - Quote
More correctly...
Quote:Because the players made efforts to inform us about the issue their accounts will remain in good standing.
. |
Sperno Thanato
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 06:06:00 -
[383] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Xython wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:Exploiting the snot out of something for TWO weeks and only officially reporting it when the noose tightens as bughunters/devs close in on the anomaly should at the very least be prolonged temporary bans as well as confiscation of all ill-gotten goods and an investigation into the effects of those five holier-than-though exploiters (LOL!) LP dumps into the FW sovereignty mechanic.
You mad Bro?? You sound like you could be mad. Did BoB used to say the same thing to Goonswarm, when you guys accused CCP of favoritism towards BoB?
Only all the time
Goons tbh are a little bit like the abused who from an entire society of role models choose to aspire to and immitate their abuser...
I think that's considered normal among shrinks but I can't remember liek the scientific terms and whatnot... |
Anoexia
Fr33 Banking and Trade
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 09:02:00 -
[384] - Quote
What the goons did was not an exploit in the truest sense of the word and while the outcome of this "event " could have been much worse it wasn't. Those people who think things can't be traced forward into other accounts are dead wrong or are Blizzard QC employees. All you have to do is go back to a set point in time look at the character snapshot and then follow the activity log forward or if you want quick and dirty you can just say hey this was your ISK balance, LP totals, and inventory at the point that the "event" began and restore the inventory to the snapshot value and the LP & ISK totals to 90% or so of their value. That would be an easy but maybe not the most fair way to punish the offenders Goons or other. Hey but if you want to have real fun report the RMT folks to the taxing authorities in their home countries, the bulk of them are not paying taxes on their profits. Let the governments of the world lend a hand :) Taxmen like small time cheats they can't afford big time lawyers. |
Aemonchichi
Limited Access Guardian Society
34
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 16:03:00 -
[385] - Quote
Aemonchichi wrote:ccp sreegs can u explain why ccp in this situation decided not to punish the exploiters ?
my question is still standing , CCP said in the dev blog it was a exploit and phuuleeeeze refrain from answering questions not asked in your direction goons and affiliates 8)
it is clear that under this circumstances your opinions are biased
the point was well judged that it was an exploit, ccp decides so and takes actions that make sense like revoking all ill gotten gains, but no punishment ? for a exploit ? i wanna hear from ccp sreegs why this absolutley inconclusive action was taken ( no to mention a snitch plex award, lol , as if someone could snitch himself)
all this looks a bit awkwardly constructed and not logically acted from step to step , the motivations from ccp are in question here
|
Belonger
Free Borg Syndicate Mostly AFK
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 20:30:00 -
[386] - Quote
if that graph is CORRECT there were more then 1 B LP per day produced. Thoose 5 ppl claim they earn only 5 Trilions on it so where is the rest of the lp/iskies?
From the graph it looks like 5 trilions per day not in 2 weeks. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
240
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 22:56:00 -
[387] - Quote
Aemonchichi wrote:Aemonchichi wrote:ccp sreegs can u explain why ccp in this situation decided not to punish the exploiters ? my question is still standing , CCP said in the dev blog it was a exploit and phuuleeeeze refrain from answering questions not asked in your direction goons and affiliates 8) it is clear that under this circumstances your opinions are biased the point was well judged that it was an exploit, ccp decides so and takes actions that make sense like revoking all ill gotten gains, but no punishment ? for a exploit ? i wanna hear from ccp sreegs why this absolutley inconclusive action was taken ( no to mention a snitch plex award, lol , as if someone could snitch himself) all this looks a bit awkwardly constructed and not logically acted from step to step , the motivations from ccp are in question here
Read the thread and dev blog and you'll find that your question has already been answered. Sorry you didn't like the answer. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
549
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 02:49:00 -
[388] - Quote
Belonger wrote:if that graph is CORRECT there were more then 1 B LP per day produced. Thoose 5 ppl claim they earn only 5 Trilions on it so where is the rest of the lp/iskies?
From the graph it looks like 5 trilions per day not in 2 weeks.
SO i have a question did u catched other ppl usign that exploit? or did the CCP decide they are on marigin bcs they got less then soem amount of isks from it?
Uh...you realize that the graph is unlabeled, so you have no idea what the amounts on it are, right? And that we did this over several days, not just on one day, right? And that the 5 trillion was isk, not LP, right? . |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
240
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 04:10:00 -
[389] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Belonger wrote:if that graph is CORRECT there were more then 1 B LP per day produced. Thoose 5 ppl claim they earn only 5 Trilions on it so where is the rest of the lp/iskies?
From the graph it looks like 5 trilions per day not in 2 weeks.
SO i have a question did u catched other ppl usign that exploit? or did the CCP decide they are on marigin bcs they got less then soem amount of isks from it? Uh...you realize that the graph is unlabeled, so you have no idea what the amounts on it are, right? And that we did this over several days, not just on one day, right? And that the 5 trillion was isk, not LP, right?
Are you trying to teach a random GoonHaterGäó literacy? Or, crazier yet, reading comprehension?
Actually, I think you could force people to actually read if all Goonswarm personnel hit their Corp/Alliance tags. People would have to click something and read something before they attacked it for being posted by a Goon.*
*Though, I do seem to remember a thread where an OP claimed Goon conspiracy before any Goon had posted, so I guess I'm wrong... -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 05:36:00 -
[390] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Aemonchichi wrote:Aemonchichi wrote:ccp sreegs can u explain why ccp in this situation decided not to punish the exploiters ? my question is still standing , CCP said in the dev blog it was a exploit and phuuleeeeze refrain from answering questions not asked in your direction goons and affiliates 8) it is clear that under this circumstances your opinions are biased the point was well judged that it was an exploit, ccp decides so and takes actions that make sense like revoking all ill gotten gains, but no punishment ? for a exploit ? i wanna hear from ccp sreegs why this absolutley inconclusive action was taken ( no to mention a snitch plex award, lol , as if someone could snitch himself) all this looks a bit awkwardly constructed and not logically acted from step to step , the motivations from ccp are in question here Read the thread and dev blog and you'll find that your question has already been answered. Sorry you didn't like the answer.
Don't bother - the hatred induced blindness is too strong in this one.
|
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
240
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 07:59:00 -
[391] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Aemonchichi wrote:Aemonchichi wrote:ccp sreegs can u explain why ccp in this situation decided not to punish the exploiters ? my question is still standing , CCP said in the dev blog it was a exploit and phuuleeeeze refrain from answering questions not asked in your direction goons and affiliates 8) it is clear that under this circumstances your opinions are biased the point was well judged that it was an exploit, ccp decides so and takes actions that make sense like revoking all ill gotten gains, but no punishment ? for a exploit ? i wanna hear from ccp sreegs why this absolutley inconclusive action was taken ( no to mention a snitch plex award, lol , as if someone could snitch himself) all this looks a bit awkwardly constructed and not logically acted from step to step , the motivations from ccp are in question here Read the thread and dev blog and you'll find that your question has already been answered. Sorry you didn't like the answer. Don't bother - the hatred induced blindness is too strong in this one.
I find that the best way to infuriate someone blind with impotent rage is to talk to them calmly and be right when they're not.
And poking at a raging steer is just good clean fun. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Belonger
Free Borg Syndicate Mostly AFK
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 13:51:00 -
[392] - Quote
Belonger wrote:if that graph is CORRECT there were more then 1 B LP per day produced. Thoose 5 ppl claim they earn only 5 Trilions on it so where is the rest of the lp/iskies?
From the graph it looks like 5 trilions per day not in 2 weeks.
SO i have a question did u catched other ppl usign that exploit? or did the CCP decide they are on marigin bcs they got less then soem amount of isks from it?
To unwise ppl who cant read we 5 trilions in isks were like 1b lp with T5 and that time market prices on simple implants. There wre also better way to sell lp
I supposed that graph is linear -> considering how much lp made in one corp i have an alt in there were created more lp even if i will count that LP made that day was done only by one corporation ( with my alt inside).
And we have not 12 ppl in militia but like 500 minimum.
Still i want to get CCP answer about it. |
Andrea Griffin
292
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Posted - 2012.07.05 15:17:00 -
[393] - Quote
CCP Sreegs, Best Sreegs. CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Dalketh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
39
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Posted - 2012.07.05 18:59:00 -
[394] - Quote
Helena Russell Makanen wrote:
So goons take advantage of an exploit, profit from it, then their accounts are left in good standing and even plex awarded, because they at some point sent that information to ccp.
I may be wrong, but didn't you ban the guy (non-goon) who did the same thing when he exposed an exploit with the first opening of these new forums - where no one paid attention to his warnings until he exploited it as proof? I can't remember if it was a lifetime ban, but I know he was banned, and without making a cent.
How is this case so very different?
Well said. I remember this also. I looked it up and according to the MAssively site:
"At least one player who reported the exploit was banned for subsequently abusing the exploit in an effort to force CCP to take action."
How is this any different Sreegs? Seems the same to me except he wasn't a goon, and he was punished not rewarded.
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Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
241
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Posted - 2012.07.05 21:42:00 -
[395] - Quote
Dalketh wrote:Helena Russell Makanen wrote:
So goons take advantage of an exploit, profit from it, then their accounts are left in good standing and even plex awarded, because they at some point sent that information to ccp.
I may be wrong, but didn't you ban the guy (non-goon) who did the same thing when he exposed an exploit with the first opening of these new forums - where no one paid attention to his warnings until he exploited it as proof? I can't remember if it was a lifetime ban, but I know he was banned, and without making a cent.
How is this case so very different?
Well said. I remember this also. I looked it up and according to the MAssively site: "At least one player who reported the exploit was banned for subsequently abusing the exploit in an effort to force CCP to take action." How is this any different Sreegs? Seems the same to me except he wasn't a goon, and he was punished not rewarded.
Because Massively is the New York Times of gaming related investigative reporting. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Aemonchichi
Limited Access Guardian Society
35
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 10:08:00 -
[396] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Read the thread and dev blog and you'll find that your question has already been answered. Sorry you didn't like the answer.
dear troll i have read all the devblog and all ccp posts in this thread and no answer was give to my question at all
my question still stands: why were the exploiters not punished?
the only 2 arguments sreegs/ccp wise on this is :
1. because they snitched themselves at a point were we already saw that there was an exploit happening and we were investigating (thats not the wording but the meaning) - does this sound strange to anyone but me ?
2. because we felt this is best for the game - best ? wtf is best for the game here ? to show players can exploit and if the see posts from ccp that they are aware of something going on they go make a post and sack a bunch o plexes ? no sreegs this is in no way good for the game
both of these are not sufficient answers at all, if these are all ccp sreegs wants to give - hell yeah lets exploit the **** out of this game lol ? maybe eve has really reached a point where ccp doesnt give a **** about it anymore 8( |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
262
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 10:36:00 -
[397] - Quote
Aemonchichi wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Read the thread and dev blog and you'll find that your question has already been answered. Sorry you didn't like the answer. dear troll i have read all the devblog and all ccp posts in this thread and no answer was give to my question at all my question still stands: why were the exploiters not punished? the only 2 arguments sreegs/ccp wise on this is : 1. because they snitched themselves at a point were we already saw that there was an exploit happening and we were investigating (thats not the wording but the meaning) - does this sound strange to anyone but me ? 2. because we felt this is best for the game - best ? wtf is best for the game here ? to show players can exploit and if the see posts from ccp that they are aware of something going on they go make a post and sack a bunch o plexes ? no sreegs this is in no way good for the game both of these are not sufficient answers at all, if these are all ccp sreegs wants to give - hell yeah lets exploit the **** out of this game lol ? maybe eve has really reached a point where ccp doesnt give a **** about it anymore 8(
Since you still haven't been able to read the devblog,
Quote:Because the players made efforts to inform us about the issue their accounts will remain in good standing. http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72972
There you go.
Sorry you don't like the answer. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Aemonchichi
Limited Access Guardian Society
35
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 13:07:00 -
[398] - Quote
it still is no answer, the players made their post after ccp said in the news that something fishy is going on and they investigate
ccp clearly states that is was an exploit, and sreegs states that they already knew there was someone manipulating LPs way out of scale
so saying they remain in good standing should read they remain in awesome standing cause they get a bunch of plexes on top of no punishment
and sreegs, as a former goon member, communicating all this to the community, is not a wise choice made by ccp even if u grant him that he above acting biased
no wonder this smells fishy and i still would like an explanation above the one litte sentence from the dev blog
sandbox does not mean: no rules, hack, bot and exploit as u like and for a game i invest a lot of time and effort into i would like to see CCP more dedicated to the enforcement of their own rules |
Challu
Wishful Desires Inc. Armada Assail
47
|
Posted - 2012.07.07 01:45:00 -
[399] - Quote
Wow you're aweful.
Aemonchichi wrote:it still is no answer, the players made their post after ccp said in the news that something fishy is going on and they investigate
Please read up before you go on a whine-spree. You got the sequence of events the wrong way around. The one duder reported the exploit with all its execution details to CCP.
Aemonchichi wrote:ccp clearly states that is was an exploit, and sreegs states that they already knew there was someone manipulating LPs way out of scale
so saying they remain in good standing should read they remain in awesome standing cause they get a bunch of plexes on top of no punishment
Not "they", the one reporting dude got plexes because he reported the details of the exploit to CCP. Sure, you can disagree with the ruling, but you just have to ... wait for it ... read the damn blog to understand why what was done =P
Aemonchichi wrote:and sreegs, as a former goon member, communicating all this to the community, is not a wise choice made by ccp even if u grant him that he above acting biased
And this is where it goes from whiney to having a case of The Dumb. Sreegs is CCP's cop. He deals with this kinda stuff. In some ways, it would be inappropriate for anyone other than Sreegs to report on this. For someone who values form over substance, I can see how this may not seem sensical to you though.
Aemonchichi wrote:no wonder this smells fishy and i still would like an explanation above the one litte sentence from the dev blog
Read it again. You may not like the answer, but it's there.
Aemonchichi wrote:sandbox does not mean: no rules, hack, bot and exploit as u like and for a game i invest a lot of time and effort into i would like to see CCP more dedicated to the enforcement of their own rules
Nice to see that you're ending with a red herring. Complements the spirit of the rest of the post. |
Aemonchichi
Limited Access Guardian Society
36
|
Posted - 2012.07.07 15:03:00 -
[400] - Quote
another fanboi repeating other posters mindless gibberish 8) dude best keep it to yourself
but as the question is not answered in the devblog, no matter how often ppl yell its there 8) not it isnt - seems u should read it yourself again and slow this time trying to understand it
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Udonor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
18
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Posted - 2012.07.09 18:29:00 -
[401] - Quote
Can't really help thinking that this should NOT have been labelled an exploit. No rules were broken and no code or software design flaws existed. Inputs were required.
In fact CCP has endorsed market manipulation since the beginning in the form of encouraging traders to try to "corner the market". Thus the penalty seems to be for being too successful. Which would be fine if CCP wanted to define the maximum percentage of profit per transaction or directly related transactions. (Directly related might be a wee bit hard to define except by the rule of repetition and pattern.)
Perhaps excessively embarassing your gaming host's over short sighted game design would have been more correct.
I suppose CCP could define some sort of rule dealing with the ethics of cooperating players on both sides of a transaction/interaction which was intended to be hostile. But then CCP would be burdened with defining or at least clarifying which transactions were intended to be hostile and which allowed to be cooperative. I suppose all market transacations could be classified as hostile and maybe private contracts are cooperative...but what about general public contracts. What about when you accidentally buy your own order off market though oversight? |
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:32:00 -
[402] - Quote
Good call CCP! Glad to see that abusive behavior is not rewarded! |
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
345
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Posted - 2012.07.11 11:22:00 -
[403] - Quote
FIRE FRIENDSHIP TORPEDOES ! Louis's epic skill guide v1.1 |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
364
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 11:32:00 -
[404] - Quote
Gotta give those Defender missiles their 1% boost. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
133
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 20:08:00 -
[405] - Quote
15 days without a new dev blog! |
Disregard That
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
182
|
Posted - 2012.07.14 15:25:00 -
[406] - Quote
What did CCP Soundwave mean in the TenTonHammer interview when, pertaining to LP for PVP, he quipped, "I kind of hope this goes terribly wrong?"
Any comments from players or CCP on this?
It's interesting to note that the TenTonHammer guy says, "You don't hear many game designers say that."
Boy howdy, you don't! |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
134
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 19:20:00 -
[407] - Quote
18 days without a new dev blog! |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
411
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 19:48:00 -
[408] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:18 days without a new dev blog!
1. Summer Vacation
2. There is a Dev Blog on this subject. In fact, this thread is discussing it. -RubyPorto
EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
Disregard That
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
183
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 20:45:00 -
[409] - Quote
Disregard That wrote:What did CCP Soundwave mean in the TenTonHammer interview when, pertaining to LP for PVP, he quipped, "I kind of hope this goes terribly wrong?" TenTonHammer InterviewAny comments from players or CCP on this? The relevant comment is at 7m 58s. It's interesting to note that the TenTonHammer guy says, "You don't hear many game designers say that." Boy howdy, you don't! Totally not empty quoting. I'm still waiting for a response from CCP.
What is the "correct interpretation" of CCP Soundwave's provocative statement?
It sure looks mighty conspicuous given the tone of CCP Sreeg's scathing assessment of the LP for Pew Pew FOREX scheme.
I thought we hoped this went terribly wrong? That's the cue I took from the game's lead designer.
I'm genuinely looking for some guidance on this here, because it doesn't seem very intuitive to me at all.
[edit]
We also get this gem from CCP Greyscale:
CCP Greyscale wrote:...we're generally OK with people abusing some of the loopholes in the design and/or UI presentation to use such systems for unintended purposes...
How were the players involved in this scheme supposed to resolve CCP Soundwave's above-referenced comment and an overall-pervasive message as summed up above by CCP Greyscale, with the supposed expectation that they would police themselves regarding a feature that was functioning exactly as predicted by its stated intent and design parameters and happened to be making them a flat-out fortune?
I fail to see how, given the above quotes, any player could be expected to judge the scheme discussed in this thread as exploitative in any way.
[/edit] |
Mezoforta
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 03:08:00 -
[410] - Quote
I completly support Disregard That I to watched the video and seen and heard ccp soundave say that he designs for results but he hopes it fails terribly and from what a normal person with any IQ can see he would be talking about the LP from faction warfare. Its pretty weird that even ten ton hammer said wow i have never heard a game designer say that and neither have i. Yes he is one of the faces of CCP and im sure CCP wouldnt like to have their lead game designers be made to look like a fool, but he did it to himself by saying what he did. If CCP really cares about its customers like they have said then maybe he should do another interview with ten ton and retort what he said. Being as that is what they would want any other person who plays the game that was in a seat of power oh say mittens. But yes in short i support Disregard That 100% |
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Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
164
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 19:26:00 -
[411] - Quote
I hear a disconnect between designers and actual implimentation, "I hope this goes terribly wrong" sounds like someone who fought over how this was going to work and lost Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Ships to goo calc - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107898 |
Tarsus Zateki
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
792
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 00:36:00 -
[412] - Quote
I've always found it fascinating how anonymous internet forum posters always demand the most extreme punishments for misdeeds. Even though the fruits of these goons' labour will be undone and everything returned to near normality*, anonymous internet forum posters demand permanent bans. Losing trillions of ISK isn't enough, they must be barred from playing the game they obviously love to play.
Equally interesting how the vindictiveness of anonymous internet forum posters is always amplified when its directed at member's of my alliance. I'm willing to bet that the same people calling for Aryth's and co. banning would be asking for leniency if the person's in question were from a competing alliance. Eve's meta-game always extends disturbingly far into real life ("I don't like you so I hope you're barred from the game forever!").
* This won't be the case. Its almost a certainty that these goons will end up losing considerable legitimate assets due to am incomplete investigation as has happened in every similar case. Not saying Screegs and his team are incompetent, they most certainly aren't, but Eve is a very complicated game and there's only so many man hours you can devote to a problem. You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world. |
Pipa Porto
462
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Posted - 2012.07.23 01:24:00 -
[413] - Quote
Tarsus Zateki wrote:"I don't like you so I hope you're barred from the game forever!").
Is there a better way to get rid of your competitors? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
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