Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 .. 14 :: one page |
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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
PDC Agni
Perseus Development Corporation
0
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:09:00 -
[31] - Quote
Instead of calculating LP based on total value why not create a value for each ship and then a range based on load out and cargo. For example a Rifter might base at 5 LP and get anywhere from 1-5 additional based on total value. A Jaguar might be 15 LP and have a 1-10 bonus available (numbers totally made up). |
Cerebral Wolf
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
13
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:11:00 -
[32] - Quote
we should be able to manipulate it, same as pretty much anything in eve can be manipulated. They should just have limits in place to stop it being so mental next time. |
Squizz Caphinator
Iocaine Industries Happy Endings
45
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:11:00 -
[33] - Quote
API or GTFO :)
(no really, I'd love to see that on eve-kill as API verified) http://evewho.com - Alliance and Corporation Member Listings http://evechatter.com - Free Alliance and Corporation forums for all. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
8
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:12:00 -
[34] - Quote
Those guys deserve a nice spotlight, lore mention or smth like that at least. Even being an exploit it is a really good story to tell which EVE mechanics, our beloved sandbox allowed. A mention in the lore of a biggest fraud happened in new Eden is at least it can be done. And the fraud ending that those 5 guys warning the authorities about what happened and beacuse of that they got forgiven.
Well smth like that |
Drago Palermus
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
26
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:13:00 -
[35] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Other posts bring up a intersting point though. If in the future, after the system is fixed/revamped whatever. If this becomes slightly possible again but not to the degree shown here, would that be legal? I am not trying to words lawyer, just trying to see where the boundary is.
Once something is reported, and time gone by to remediate, does anything after that pass muster? The boundary between exploitation and manipulation is gray, like the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. CCP would probably (loosely) define an exploit as: a method that can generate an infinite, or near-infinite, amount of isk in a short period of time with little-to-no risk to the participants.
Your hypothetical future scenario sounds more like arbitrage.
PS: I am jealous of your finance cabal. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
510
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:13:00 -
[36] - Quote
Squizz Caphinator wrote:API or GTFO :) (no really, I'd love to see that on eve-kill as API verified) Might not be as impressive on eve-kill depending on whether or not eve-kill uses the new kill value yet. . |
Apparent Decadence
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:18:00 -
[37] - Quote
Market manipulation is par for the course for Eve. No one seems to be bothered about the other side of this scheme - pre-arranged PVP kills.
In most PVP games, this is punishable. In Eve, it's not usually worthwhile. Here it was. Should it be punished? |
Illectroculus Defined
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
61
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:19:00 -
[38] - Quote
Does this mean Twitter.com will get a PLEX for snitches reward?
(Aryth, if you ever need to use twitter in the future you should ask me how it works first :) |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3767
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:20:00 -
[39] - Quote
Apparent Decadence wrote:Market manipulation is par for the course for Eve. No one seems to be bothered about the other side of this scheme - pre-arranged PVP kills.
In most PVP games, this is punishable. In Eve, it's not usually worthwhile. Here it was. Should it be punished? hell no |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
8
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:21:00 -
[40] - Quote
Drago Palermus wrote:Aryth wrote:Other posts bring up a intersting point though. If in the future, after the system is fixed/revamped whatever. If this becomes slightly possible again but not to the degree shown here, would that be legal? I am not trying to words lawyer, just trying to see where the boundary is.
Once something is reported, and time gone by to remediate, does anything after that pass muster? The boundary between exploitation and manipulation is gray, like the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. CCP would probably (loosely) define an exploit as: a method that can generate an infinite, or near-infinite, amount of isk in a short period of time with little-to-no risk to the participants. Your hypothetical future scenario sounds more like arbitrage. PS: I am jealous of your finance cabal.
Well whatever u want to call it mate, just get em in the lore!!! :DDDDD i play this game just to read about these kind of stories and maybe one day be part in one of it :DD
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
686
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:21:00 -
[41] - Quote
Manipulating market prices = Exploiting.
There literally is no sandbox anymore. |
Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
43
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
Sreegs,
as long as you have isk to lp or lp to isk its still exploitable.
where a nominal value for an item is fixed on a time period orders of magnitude higher than the separation in time between trades or trade modifications, its still exploitable.
you can minimize these windows in two ways
a) exclude cargo from the value of the ship loss - in faction warfare in eve, REAL cargoes are going to be on a neutral alt anyway this removes most opportunities to use "sticky" valuations in a fast moving market
b) don't use the the ISK value as your basis for the LP .. use a log(ISK value) to minimize distortions from very high value items |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
510
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:23:00 -
[43] - Quote
Apparent Decadence wrote:Market manipulation is par for the course for Eve. No one seems to be bothered about the other side of this scheme - pre-arranged PVP kills.
In most PVP games, this is punishable. In Eve, it's not usually worthwhile. Here it was. Should it be punished?
Eve is not "most PVP games" and CCP is mot the developer of most CCP games. The fact that we're here, posting, instead of having been banned on the spot with no questions asked is proof of that, and the game is better for it.
And look it at as a roleplay move. Think about the inferno trailer movie - "For the right price, I'll set the universe on fire." You'd have to be crazy to think that if immortal spaceship pilots found out that they could make money by blowing up their friends, repeatedly, they'd do it in a heartbeat. . |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
48
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:25:00 -
[44] - Quote
Aryth wrote:That graph is a thing of beauty. I like it how it has 5 points too, with one little baby point down at the bottom. That was probably querns. You can just hear the glass shattering!
All my kills were on the 10th :colbert: |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1892
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:26:00 -
[45] - Quote
Swearte Widfarend wrote:Weaselior wrote:Is it an exploit to take advantage of a naturally occuring disparity between market price and average price? In essence, can I farm this system if I didn't tamper with the average price in any way? Aryth wrote:Other posts bring up a intersting point though. If in the future, after the system is fixed/revamped whatever. If this becomes slightly possible again but not to the degree shown here, would that be legal? I am not trying to words lawyer, just trying to see where the boundary is.
Once something is reported, and time gone by to remediate, does anything after that pass muster? Sreegs - if we do not manipulate prices but do research to take advantage of existing market values, is this still exploiting? Your blog seems to hint that it is.
I'm going to pass this point around internally. I'm not really comfortable answering this Maverick-Style. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Lili Lu
293
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:27:00 -
[46] - Quote
See and here's the key part:
CCP Sreegs wrote: I wrote a blog on "Responsible Disclosures" a year or so ago. In that blog I mention that telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system.
Now the real improtant question is what if the actions had occurred after notification, due to inaction on CCP's part. Because I could see that happening. The future awaits |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
452
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:29:00 -
[47] - Quote
Squizz Caphinator wrote:API or GTFO :) (no really, I'd love to see that on eve-kill as API verified)
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&view=kills&plt_id=1372523&m=6&y=2012
That is one char. EVE Kill doesn't seem to use CCP values though. But even with EVE Central prices the 160b freighter kill will stand etc. |
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CCP GingerDude
70
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:32:00 -
[48] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:What sort of metrics does CCP watch for to catch these kinds of exploits? And what sort of systems can be put in place to understand why LP is coming from nothing, similar to how tech was coming from nothing under the previous silo duplication exploit?
This did also show up as a statistical anomaly in our player event metrics although it took a while for it to properly register. I.e. we noticed and would've taken action regardless of snitching. Senior Server Programmer |
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Atomic Option
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
19
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:32:00 -
[49] - Quote
I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
8
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:33:00 -
[50] - Quote
This act i d call like:
Getting advantage of fully functional in game mechanics in a non fair way.
Thats like a worst thing i can say bout this act and it is a bit of CCPs fault too so... LORE mention pls |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1892
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:33:00 -
[51] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Manipulating market prices = Exploiting.
There literally is no sandbox anymore.
Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
Nowhere has anyone said Manipulating Market Prices is exploiting. Ever. At all. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1892
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:34:00 -
[52] - Quote
Atomic Option wrote:I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool.
PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
50
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:37:00 -
[53] - Quote
So this has been a pretty wild ride, but I still have one more question -- when spitballing FW Forex, I thought of a crucial limitation to the whole shebang, and perhaps, in the spirit of amusement, one of you lovely CCP types could verify this for me. Is the column in the database tasked with storing a player's LP a signed 32-bit integer? I was legitimately worried that if we breached 2.1 billion LP, it would wrap around to a negative value. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
511
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:38:00 -
[54] - Quote
Querns wrote:So this has been a pretty wild ride, but I still have one more question -- when spitballing FW Forex, I thought of a crucial limitation to the whole shebang, and perhaps, in the spirit of amusement, one of you lovely CCP types could verify this for me. Is the column in the database tasked with storing a player's LP a signed 32-bit integer? I was legitimately worried that if we breached 2.1 billion LP, it would wrap around to a negative value.
Also curious about this. We all assumed that it wasn't a signed 32-bit integer, because wallets aren't, but we definitely joked about it happening, and about what an entertaining petition it would make. . |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
50
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:39:00 -
[55] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Querns wrote:So this has been a pretty wild ride, but I still have one more question -- when spitballing FW Forex, I thought of a crucial limitation to the whole shebang, and perhaps, in the spirit of amusement, one of you lovely CCP types could verify this for me. Is the column in the database tasked with storing a player's LP a signed 32-bit integer? I was legitimately worried that if we breached 2.1 billion LP, it would wrap around to a negative value. Also curious about this. We all assumed that it wasn't a signed 32-bit integer, because wallets aren't, but we definitely joked about it happening, and about what an entertaining petition it would make. Yeah, that would have probably been the best petition ever. "My Tribal Liberation Front LP is negative!!!!!" |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1893
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:40:00 -
[56] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Querns wrote:So this has been a pretty wild ride, but I still have one more question -- when spitballing FW Forex, I thought of a crucial limitation to the whole shebang, and perhaps, in the spirit of amusement, one of you lovely CCP types could verify this for me. Is the column in the database tasked with storing a player's LP a signed 32-bit integer? I was legitimately worried that if we breached 2.1 billion LP, it would wrap around to a negative value. Also curious about this. We all assumed that it wasn't a signed 32-bit integer, because wallets aren't, but we definitely joked about it happening, and about what an entertaining petition it would make.
I'll ask internally but I'm not sure I'd tell you either way. To my knowledge we don't really give out that level of detail about our DB structure. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Salpun
Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects
329
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:44:00 -
[57] - Quote
Will the LP dumped into the FW system states be reversed as well? |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
511
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:45:00 -
[58] - Quote
Salpun wrote:Will the LP dumped into the FW system states be reversed as well?
Seeing as Minmatar were down to something like 160 points the other day, Amarr is doing a fine job of reversing the LP dumped on their own.
e: To clarify, Minmatar had Tier 4 before we came in. At most, the effect of our actions on the course of the war was that they were able to hold onto tier 4 longer than they may have on their own. Fweddit seems to be a force to be reckoned with. . |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
591
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:46:00 -
[59] - Quote
Well, Sreegs, what harm could come of it? Clearly nobody will ever be smarter than CCP ever again and you won't have to worry about players reaching that level of LP. Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
Nagapito
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels In Tea We Trust
15
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:47:00 -
[60] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? |
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