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Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.08.12 09:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
Mackinkaw: 287m sell/263m buy Hulk: 224m sell/170m buy Skiff: 190m sell/164m buy
I thought the intention of the barge buff was to remove one barge being best. That being the Hulk. The Mackinkaw has taken the Hulks old roll as king of the barges, the yield is almost as good as the Hulk, it has better tank, and it has a massive ore hold which is the primary thing that's making it so overpowered. Able to mine on ice roids for over half an hour as a semi afk income, it can't be beaten, it has taken the role of the Hulk as the primary choice of barge. Failing that, the retriever, which is almost as good.
There's one main reason for this. 35k m3 ore hold, not far below that of an ORCA. Does anyone else think that the devs didn't think this through too well? I can't see many miners not taking a Mackinkaw over a Hulk even with Orca support, because 35k m3 ore hold allows them to do other things while your Mackinkaw pulls in what is basically an afk income for at least half an hour at a time.
It's already apparent what effect this is having on the ice market. If the trend continues, soon the only people mining ice will be bots and afk alts.
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Crimsonjade
Reikoku The Retirement Club
9
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Posted - 2012.08.12 09:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
thanks. now i know what to train on my alt. fueling 4 carriers is a pain. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8995
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:There's one main reason for this. 35k m3 ore hold, not far below that of an ORCA. A quarter the amount counts as Gǣnot far belowGǥ these days? WowGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
506
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote: Does anyone else think that the devs didn't think this through too well?
It's already apparent what effect this is having on the ice market. If the trend continues, soon the only people mining ice will be bots and afk alts.
Actually I think they thought it out very well. Everyone knows the mack is an AFK machine and that there operators are probably not there, now we wait for the effect... Gankers to design an effective and cheap way of killing them on mass.
So Risk vs. Reward.
Yes we will have spikes and drops as things settle down but it will all work out right in the end. As to bots there are a hell of a lot less of them than there used to be.
Yes the mack has become the tool for people who don't want to do much and make isk so the cost of ice will fall, so they get compensated to a lesser degree because they are not there. For people who do want to sit at your keyboard, DON'T ice mine, you don't need to lock new targets or move if you mine ICE so it is worth less per hour. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1764
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:There's one main reason for this. 35k m3 ore hold, not far below that of an ORCA. A quarter the amount counts as Gǣnot far belowGǥ these days? WowGǪ
Well, technically the ore hold of the Orca is 50k, the Corp Hangar is 40k, and on a tanked Orca the cargo hold is 35k or so. So yes, the Mackinaw's ore hold is in the same size range as any of the individual nooks and crannies of the Orca :)
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found
58
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
With specific regard to the Ore hold the difference is not that significant...
However the OP ignores the cargo and corp hangar of the Orca - Which can amount to more than double the ore bay.
Of course that may be a side-long swipe at the broken corp hangar mechanics ATM... |

Antal Jozsef
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thank you for pointing out how small the Orca's ore bay is. |

Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
506
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:There's one main reason for this. 35k m3 ore hold, not far below that of an ORCA. A quarter the amount counts as Gǣnot far belowGǥ these days? WowGǪ Now, Now, lets not confuse things with mathematics. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Alara IonStorm
2936
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Honestly I think they should just dump the Cargohold down to 2000 for Crystals and increase the ORE Bay to around 200k.
Then introduce light freighters if people miss their improvised hauler so much. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
4443
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
Best thing is that you dock your full mack in the orca that is also full to carry even more ore
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4295
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Best thing is that you dock your full mack in the orca that is also full to carry even more ore
Yeah pretty sure that's not intentional "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8997
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Andski wrote:Chribba wrote:Best thing is that you dock your full mack in the orca that is also full to carry even more ore Yeah pretty sure that's not intentional Shhh! Being able to stuff 183,000m-¦ worth of ore into a single Orca without any modifications (206k if you abuse the hell out of cans) just makes the eventual loss that much more funGǪ  GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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darkenspace
Perkone Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
i am reading this so go on it is all i have going right now |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4295
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Andski wrote:Chribba wrote:Best thing is that you dock your full mack in the orca that is also full to carry even more ore Yeah pretty sure that's not intentional Shhh! Being able to stuff 183,000m-¦ worth of ore into a single Orca without any modifications (206k if you abuse the hell out of cans) just makes the eventual loss that much more funGǪ 
650k m3 of ore in a Rorqual says ~hi~ "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8997
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Posted - 2012.08.12 11:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Andski wrote:650k m3 of ore in a Rorqual says ~hi~ Sure, but those Orcas will be used in GǣsafeGǥ areas. You know what that meansGǪ 
(And of course, someone will go full rtard and expand it up to 290k with only 66k EHP to protect it.)
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Grumpymunky
Super Monkey Tribe of Danger
472
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Posted - 2012.08.12 11:10:00 -
[16] - Quote
These changes aren't enough. I won't be happy until I have auto-targeting strip miners, and my ore-hold is big enough for 23 hours' worth of non-stop mining. Post with your monkey. |

Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
18
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Posted - 2012.08.12 11:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
Nobody has pointed out that the mackinkaw now holds more ore than an industrial hauler? How has nobody seen the fail logic in this? It takes the role of miner and hauler and does both better. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8997
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Posted - 2012.08.12 11:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:Nobody has pointed out that mackinkaw now holds more ore than an industrial hauler? How has nobody seen the fail logic in this? Seeing as how you can't use the Mack as an industrial hauler, the fail logic lies in comparing it to one.
That was the entire reason for giving it a specific ore hold: so it can't be used that way, because all it ever will (and can) carry is space-wasting ore. If you want to haul stuff, the best ship for it is an industrial, since they can carry far more (both in terms of stuff and in terms of variety) than a simple mining ship can. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
18
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Posted - 2012.08.12 11:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Suddenly Boom wrote:Nobody has pointed out that mackinkaw now holds more ore than an industrial hauler? How has nobody seen the fail logic in this? Seeing as how you can't use the Mack as an industrial hauler, the fail logic lies in comparing it to one. That was the entire reason for giving it a specific ore hold: so it can't be used that way, because all it ever will (and can) carry is space-wasting ore. If you want to haul stuff, the best ship for it is an industrial, since they can carry far more (both in terms of stuff and in terms of variety) than a simple mining ship can.
Unless you're using that industrial ship to haul ore from the belt, which is more its primary use. |

Zera Kerrigan
Dark Tempest Enterprises
12
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Posted - 2012.08.12 11:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
Don't say this stuff out loud! I like my AFK ISK machines! Don't ruin them, please?  |
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Irya Boone
Escadron leader
34
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Posted - 2012.08.12 12:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
afk miners aren't easy to kill ?? so where the problem ??
and thx CCp for that , because i was tired of hauling my ores every 10 minutes ... Whormoles are working as Intended .. so don't Touch my Hole CCP !!!
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8997
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Posted - 2012.08.12 12:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:Unless you're using that industrial ship to haul ore from the belt, which is more its primary use. Its primary use is to haul stuff all over the place. It does that far better than the Mack can ever wish for.
The one minor use-case of hauling ore from a belt to a station is still there for group mining efforts for much the same reason: because an industrial can be made to haul more and can be far more flexible in terms of what it carries (eg. all those mining crystals that Hulk users have been whinging about). All the Mack does is allow you to stay in the belt for longer before returning to station, and in that scenario, no hauler is involved to begin with so nothing has been replaced. If you intend never to leave the belt to begin with, then you still need that indy since it does the job far better.
Claiming that the every-day haulers is losing its role as an every-day hauler to a ship that cannot actually haul stuff is downright silly.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Lilliana Stelles
Mindstar Technology Executive Outcomes
404
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Posted - 2012.08.12 12:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
This rebalancing really makes me wonder what they're going to do with industrials.
There's certainly no need to bring them on mining ops anymore. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8997
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Posted - 2012.08.12 12:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:This rebalancing really makes me wonder what they're going to do with industrials.
There's certainly no need to bring them on mining ops anymore. Why would they do anything to them? It's not like acting as belt shuttles is their only purpose (and it's not like they've suddenly become useless in that role either).
I suppose that, once tiercide rolls around to adjust them, they'll lose all that pointless CPU power, but beyond thatGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.08.12 12:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Suddenly Boom wrote:Unless you're using that industrial ship to haul ore from the belt, which is more its primary use. Its primary use is to haul stuff all over the place. It does that far better than the Mack can ever wish for. The one minor use-case of hauling ore from a belt to a station is still there for group mining efforts for much the same reason: because an industrial can be made to haul more and can be far more flexible in terms of what it carries (eg. all those mining crystals that Hulk users have been whinging about). All the Mack does is allow you to stay in the belt for longer before returning to station, and in that scenario, no hauler is involved to begin with so nothing has been replaced. If you intend never to leave the belt to begin with, then you still need that indy since it does the job far better. Claiming that the every-day haulers is losing its role as an every-day hauler to a ship that cannot actually haul stuff is downright silly. As a point of comparison, a Mack can bring just over 1M units of trit to the market; a mega-haul Itty V can bring nearly 4MGǪ or 86M units if you employ a bit of compression.
For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore.
The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8999
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Posted - 2012.08.12 12:36:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. GǪfor which a top-end industrial is still a better choice since it does it faster and in larger volume. In teams in particular, it allows you to switch from Macks to Hulk+Orca combos and leave everyone else in the belt, nicely boosted up.
And even if this rather secondary use for industrials was ever so slightly intruded on by the Mack, then so what? It just means the Mack is doing its job as a solo miner and it doesn't make any difference for the value of industrials at large.
Quote:The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. Good news: they don't. There is no imbalance. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.08.12 13:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. GǪfor which a top-end industrial is still a better choice since it does it faster and in larger volume. In teams in particular, it allows you to switch from Macks to Hulk+Orca combos and leave everyone else in the belt, nicely boosted up. And even if this rather secondary use for industrials was ever so slightly intruded on by the Mack, then so what? It just means the Mack is doing its job as a solo miner and it doesn't make any difference for the value of industrials at large. Quote:The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. Good news: they don't. There is no imbalance.
Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.
The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though.
The rapidly crashing ice market is a symptom of the imbalance, we'll see just how bad it goes. This is what happens when you give a mining ship a hauler sized ore hold. |

Tikera Tissant
39
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Posted - 2012.08.12 13:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:
For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore.
The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. If you really want a dedicated hauler anyway, just use another Mackinkaw, it can mine between hauling sessions. If you're going to do that though you may aswell just use each miner as its own hauler anyway. God, this is so dumb.
You are dead wrong.
When mining in a team you are mining in hulks. They dump their load to the orca, and the orca either takes the ore to the station, or you are using another orca to transfer the ore to the station.
There is absolutely no reason to use mackinaws in a team ops. Even when not tanked they will not do as much m3/hour as a tanked hulk with a booster orca. No need to go and dump your load means lots more cycles dedicated to mining than flying to station, which makes the ops a hell of alot more efficient. Using macks in a team is very in-efficient.
For a solo miner, its retriever->mackinaw. For a group miner its retriever->hulk. For a null miner its mainly a skiff. |

Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
310
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Posted - 2012.08.12 13:15:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Tippia wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. GǪfor which a top-end industrial is still a better choice since it does it faster and in larger volume. In teams in particular, it allows you to switch from Macks to Hulk+Orca combos and leave everyone else in the belt, nicely boosted up. And even if this rather secondary use for industrials was ever so slightly intruded on by the Mack, then so what? It just means the Mack is doing its job as a solo miner and it doesn't make any difference for the value of industrials at large. Quote:The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. Good news: they don't. There is no imbalance. Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold. The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though. The rapidly crashing ice market is a symptom of the imbalance, we'll see just how bad it goes. This is what happens when you give a mining ship a hauler sized ore hold. Every solo miner is now as efficient as a miner+hauler, and all for no effort too!
And once ice crashes, people will have to go back to ore to make any isk. Your "afk isk printing machine" then turns into the same boring mining operation of switching rocks every couple of minutes as it always was.
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LilRemmy
Synaptic Void AAA Citizens
4
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Posted - 2012.08.12 13:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
Mining too easy now? I don't get this whine. |
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