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Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.08.12 09:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
Mackinkaw: 287m sell/263m buy Hulk: 224m sell/170m buy Skiff: 190m sell/164m buy
I thought the intention of the barge buff was to remove one barge being best. That being the Hulk. The Mackinkaw has taken the Hulks old roll as king of the barges, the yield is almost as good as the Hulk, it has better tank, and it has a massive ore hold which is the primary thing that's making it so overpowered. Able to mine on ice roids for over half an hour as a semi afk income, it can't be beaten, it has taken the role of the Hulk as the primary choice of barge. Failing that, the retriever, which is almost as good.
There's one main reason for this. 35k m3 ore hold, not far below that of an ORCA. Does anyone else think that the devs didn't think this through too well? I can't see many miners not taking a Mackinkaw over a Hulk even with Orca support, because 35k m3 ore hold allows them to do other things while your Mackinkaw pulls in what is basically an afk income for at least half an hour at a time.
It's already apparent what effect this is having on the ice market. If the trend continues, soon the only people mining ice will be bots and afk alts.
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Crimsonjade
Reikoku The Retirement Club
9
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Posted - 2012.08.12 09:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
thanks. now i know what to train on my alt. fueling 4 carriers is a pain. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8995
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:There's one main reason for this. 35k m3 ore hold, not far below that of an ORCA. A quarter the amount counts as Gǣnot far belowGǥ these days? WowGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
506
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote: Does anyone else think that the devs didn't think this through too well?
It's already apparent what effect this is having on the ice market. If the trend continues, soon the only people mining ice will be bots and afk alts.
Actually I think they thought it out very well. Everyone knows the mack is an AFK machine and that there operators are probably not there, now we wait for the effect... Gankers to design an effective and cheap way of killing them on mass.
So Risk vs. Reward.
Yes we will have spikes and drops as things settle down but it will all work out right in the end. As to bots there are a hell of a lot less of them than there used to be.
Yes the mack has become the tool for people who don't want to do much and make isk so the cost of ice will fall, so they get compensated to a lesser degree because they are not there. For people who do want to sit at your keyboard, DON'T ice mine, you don't need to lock new targets or move if you mine ICE so it is worth less per hour. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1764
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:There's one main reason for this. 35k m3 ore hold, not far below that of an ORCA. A quarter the amount counts as Gǣnot far belowGǥ these days? WowGǪ
Well, technically the ore hold of the Orca is 50k, the Corp Hangar is 40k, and on a tanked Orca the cargo hold is 35k or so. So yes, the Mackinaw's ore hold is in the same size range as any of the individual nooks and crannies of the Orca :)
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found
58
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
With specific regard to the Ore hold the difference is not that significant...
However the OP ignores the cargo and corp hangar of the Orca - Which can amount to more than double the ore bay.
Of course that may be a side-long swipe at the broken corp hangar mechanics ATM... |
Antal Jozsef
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thank you for pointing out how small the Orca's ore bay is. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
506
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:There's one main reason for this. 35k m3 ore hold, not far below that of an ORCA. A quarter the amount counts as Gǣnot far belowGǥ these days? WowGǪ Now, Now, lets not confuse things with mathematics. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Alara IonStorm
2936
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Honestly I think they should just dump the Cargohold down to 2000 for Crystals and increase the ORE Bay to around 200k.
Then introduce light freighters if people miss their improvised hauler so much. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
4443
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
Best thing is that you dock your full mack in the orca that is also full to carry even more ore
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4295
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Best thing is that you dock your full mack in the orca that is also full to carry even more ore
Yeah pretty sure that's not intentional "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8997
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Andski wrote:Chribba wrote:Best thing is that you dock your full mack in the orca that is also full to carry even more ore Yeah pretty sure that's not intentional Shhh! Being able to stuff 183,000m-¦ worth of ore into a single Orca without any modifications (206k if you abuse the hell out of cans) just makes the eventual loss that much more funGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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darkenspace
Perkone Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
i am reading this so go on it is all i have going right now |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4295
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Posted - 2012.08.12 10:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Andski wrote:Chribba wrote:Best thing is that you dock your full mack in the orca that is also full to carry even more ore Yeah pretty sure that's not intentional Shhh! Being able to stuff 183,000m-¦ worth of ore into a single Orca without any modifications (206k if you abuse the hell out of cans) just makes the eventual loss that much more funGǪ
650k m3 of ore in a Rorqual says ~hi~ "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8997
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Posted - 2012.08.12 11:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Andski wrote:650k m3 of ore in a Rorqual says ~hi~ Sure, but those Orcas will be used in GǣsafeGǥ areas. You know what that meansGǪ
(And of course, someone will go full rtard and expand it up to 290k with only 66k EHP to protect it.)
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Grumpymunky
Super Monkey Tribe of Danger
472
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Posted - 2012.08.12 11:10:00 -
[16] - Quote
These changes aren't enough. I won't be happy until I have auto-targeting strip miners, and my ore-hold is big enough for 23 hours' worth of non-stop mining. Post with your monkey. |
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
18
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Posted - 2012.08.12 11:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
Nobody has pointed out that the mackinkaw now holds more ore than an industrial hauler? How has nobody seen the fail logic in this? It takes the role of miner and hauler and does both better. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8997
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Posted - 2012.08.12 11:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:Nobody has pointed out that mackinkaw now holds more ore than an industrial hauler? How has nobody seen the fail logic in this? Seeing as how you can't use the Mack as an industrial hauler, the fail logic lies in comparing it to one.
That was the entire reason for giving it a specific ore hold: so it can't be used that way, because all it ever will (and can) carry is space-wasting ore. If you want to haul stuff, the best ship for it is an industrial, since they can carry far more (both in terms of stuff and in terms of variety) than a simple mining ship can. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
18
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Posted - 2012.08.12 11:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Suddenly Boom wrote:Nobody has pointed out that mackinkaw now holds more ore than an industrial hauler? How has nobody seen the fail logic in this? Seeing as how you can't use the Mack as an industrial hauler, the fail logic lies in comparing it to one. That was the entire reason for giving it a specific ore hold: so it can't be used that way, because all it ever will (and can) carry is space-wasting ore. If you want to haul stuff, the best ship for it is an industrial, since they can carry far more (both in terms of stuff and in terms of variety) than a simple mining ship can.
Unless you're using that industrial ship to haul ore from the belt, which is more its primary use. |
Zera Kerrigan
Dark Tempest Enterprises
12
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Posted - 2012.08.12 11:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
Don't say this stuff out loud! I like my AFK ISK machines! Don't ruin them, please? |
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Irya Boone
Escadron leader
34
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Posted - 2012.08.12 12:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
afk miners aren't easy to kill ?? so where the problem ??
and thx CCp for that , because i was tired of hauling my ores every 10 minutes ... Whormoles are working as Intended .. so don't Touch my Hole CCP !!!
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8997
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Posted - 2012.08.12 12:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:Unless you're using that industrial ship to haul ore from the belt, which is more its primary use. Its primary use is to haul stuff all over the place. It does that far better than the Mack can ever wish for.
The one minor use-case of hauling ore from a belt to a station is still there for group mining efforts for much the same reason: because an industrial can be made to haul more and can be far more flexible in terms of what it carries (eg. all those mining crystals that Hulk users have been whinging about). All the Mack does is allow you to stay in the belt for longer before returning to station, and in that scenario, no hauler is involved to begin with so nothing has been replaced. If you intend never to leave the belt to begin with, then you still need that indy since it does the job far better.
Claiming that the every-day haulers is losing its role as an every-day hauler to a ship that cannot actually haul stuff is downright silly.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Lilliana Stelles
Mindstar Technology Executive Outcomes
404
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Posted - 2012.08.12 12:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
This rebalancing really makes me wonder what they're going to do with industrials.
There's certainly no need to bring them on mining ops anymore. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8997
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Posted - 2012.08.12 12:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:This rebalancing really makes me wonder what they're going to do with industrials.
There's certainly no need to bring them on mining ops anymore. Why would they do anything to them? It's not like acting as belt shuttles is their only purpose (and it's not like they've suddenly become useless in that role either).
I suppose that, once tiercide rolls around to adjust them, they'll lose all that pointless CPU power, but beyond thatGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.08.12 12:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Suddenly Boom wrote:Unless you're using that industrial ship to haul ore from the belt, which is more its primary use. Its primary use is to haul stuff all over the place. It does that far better than the Mack can ever wish for. The one minor use-case of hauling ore from a belt to a station is still there for group mining efforts for much the same reason: because an industrial can be made to haul more and can be far more flexible in terms of what it carries (eg. all those mining crystals that Hulk users have been whinging about). All the Mack does is allow you to stay in the belt for longer before returning to station, and in that scenario, no hauler is involved to begin with so nothing has been replaced. If you intend never to leave the belt to begin with, then you still need that indy since it does the job far better. Claiming that the every-day haulers is losing its role as an every-day hauler to a ship that cannot actually haul stuff is downright silly. As a point of comparison, a Mack can bring just over 1M units of trit to the market; a mega-haul Itty V can bring nearly 4MGǪ or 86M units if you employ a bit of compression.
For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore.
The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8999
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Posted - 2012.08.12 12:36:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. GǪfor which a top-end industrial is still a better choice since it does it faster and in larger volume. In teams in particular, it allows you to switch from Macks to Hulk+Orca combos and leave everyone else in the belt, nicely boosted up.
And even if this rather secondary use for industrials was ever so slightly intruded on by the Mack, then so what? It just means the Mack is doing its job as a solo miner and it doesn't make any difference for the value of industrials at large.
Quote:The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. Good news: they don't. There is no imbalance. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.08.12 13:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. GǪfor which a top-end industrial is still a better choice since it does it faster and in larger volume. In teams in particular, it allows you to switch from Macks to Hulk+Orca combos and leave everyone else in the belt, nicely boosted up. And even if this rather secondary use for industrials was ever so slightly intruded on by the Mack, then so what? It just means the Mack is doing its job as a solo miner and it doesn't make any difference for the value of industrials at large. Quote:The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. Good news: they don't. There is no imbalance.
Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.
The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though.
The rapidly crashing ice market is a symptom of the imbalance, we'll see just how bad it goes. This is what happens when you give a mining ship a hauler sized ore hold. |
Tikera Tissant
39
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Posted - 2012.08.12 13:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:
For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore.
The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. If you really want a dedicated hauler anyway, just use another Mackinkaw, it can mine between hauling sessions. If you're going to do that though you may aswell just use each miner as its own hauler anyway. God, this is so dumb.
You are dead wrong.
When mining in a team you are mining in hulks. They dump their load to the orca, and the orca either takes the ore to the station, or you are using another orca to transfer the ore to the station.
There is absolutely no reason to use mackinaws in a team ops. Even when not tanked they will not do as much m3/hour as a tanked hulk with a booster orca. No need to go and dump your load means lots more cycles dedicated to mining than flying to station, which makes the ops a hell of alot more efficient. Using macks in a team is very in-efficient.
For a solo miner, its retriever->mackinaw. For a group miner its retriever->hulk. For a null miner its mainly a skiff. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
310
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Posted - 2012.08.12 13:15:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Tippia wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. GǪfor which a top-end industrial is still a better choice since it does it faster and in larger volume. In teams in particular, it allows you to switch from Macks to Hulk+Orca combos and leave everyone else in the belt, nicely boosted up. And even if this rather secondary use for industrials was ever so slightly intruded on by the Mack, then so what? It just means the Mack is doing its job as a solo miner and it doesn't make any difference for the value of industrials at large. Quote:The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. Good news: they don't. There is no imbalance. Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold. The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though. The rapidly crashing ice market is a symptom of the imbalance, we'll see just how bad it goes. This is what happens when you give a mining ship a hauler sized ore hold. Every solo miner is now as efficient as a miner+hauler, and all for no effort too!
And once ice crashes, people will have to go back to ore to make any isk. Your "afk isk printing machine" then turns into the same boring mining operation of switching rocks every couple of minutes as it always was.
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LilRemmy
Synaptic Void AAA Citizens
4
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Posted - 2012.08.12 13:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
Mining too easy now? I don't get this whine. |
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Tikera Tissant
39
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Posted - 2012.08.12 13:18:00 -
[31] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote: Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.
Maybe you mean 55% extra yield with orca pilot skills and gank modules? And that is for every ship in the fleet. And you are for some reason keep forgetting the cycle losses from having to go back to the station.
2 hulks+orca = 4 machinaws give or take. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
507
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Posted - 2012.08.12 13:22:00 -
[32] - Quote
Tikera Tissant wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote: Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.
Maybe you mean 55% extra yield with orca pilot skills and gank modules? And that is for every ship in the fleet. And you are for some reason keep forgetting the cycle losses from having to go back to the station. 2 hulks+orca = 4 machinaws give or take. You forgot the shield reps you have on the Orca as well. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.08.12 13:34:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tikera Tissant wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote: Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.
Maybe you mean 55% extra yield with orca pilot skills and gank modules? And that is for every ship in the fleet. And you are for some reason keep forgetting the cycle losses from having to go back to the station. 2 hulks+orca = 4 machinaws give or take.
It's assumed that if you're using an orca to boost the hulks then you would be using an orca to boost the macks. 2 max yield hulks + orca is only 9% more yield than 2 max yield macks + orca.
The biggest difference is macks hold more than 4 times the ore, far less effort is needed and in paticular when mining ice this far outweighs any benefit you gain from the 9% more yield the hulk setup would give. You can literally leave your computer alone for half an hour while you fill up on ore, allowing you put out far longer mining sessions than you could in a hulk.
CCP wanted to do away with there being one best barge, before that was the hulk. All they've achieved is making the mackinkaw the new king barge and entirely crashed the ice market at the same time. The market prices of the hulk and mackinkaw reflect this, their prices have been completely reversed. The new mackinkaw costs the same amount as the old hulk, the new hulk costs the same amount as the old mackinkaw. The market doesn't lie. The majority are mining in Mackinkaws. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
507
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Posted - 2012.08.12 13:39:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Tikera Tissant wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote: Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.
Maybe you mean 55% extra yield with orca pilot skills and gank modules? And that is for every ship in the fleet. And you are for some reason keep forgetting the cycle losses from having to go back to the station. 2 hulks+orca = 4 machinaws give or take. It's assumed that if you're using an orca to boost the hulks then you would be using an orca to boost the macks. 2 max yield hulks + orca is only 9% more yield than 2 max yield macks + orca. The biggest difference is macks hold more than 4 times the ore, far less effort is needed and in paticular when mining ice this far outweighs any benefit you gain from the 9% more yield the hulk setup would give. You can literally leave your computer alone for half an hour while you fill up on ore, allowing you put out far longer mining sessions than you could in a hulk. CCP wanted to do away with there being one best barge, before that was the hulk. All they've achieved is making the mackinkaw the new king barge and entirely crashed the ice market at the same time. The market prices of the hulk and mackinkaw reflect this, their prices have been completely reversed. The new mackinkaw costs the same amount as the old hulk, the new hulk costs the same amount as the old mackinkaw. The market doesn't lie. The majority are mining in Mackinkaws. Why talk about Ice mining the prices are starting to flat line. You make a lot more money mining rocks because its not an afk activity. As to the market, have you considered that as it's a supply an demand market that atm a lot of solo miners are changing ships so the market cost has gone up because of demand? Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9001
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Posted - 2012.08.12 13:48:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold. You need to check your bonuses, unless you run the Mack with three MLU/IHUs, in which case it's not noticeably stronger than the Hulk. The size of the Hulk's ore hold is utterly irrelevant since you're not going to use it other than as a transition buffer. For all intents and purposes, it can be considered infinite.
Quote:The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though. GǪexcept that doing so means you lose the boosts for long periods of time, which reduces your yield. So instead you use the Orca as a huge cargo can GÇö another transfer buffer from which the actual haulers pull ore and take back to base.
So no, using the Orca as a belt shuttle is hideously inefficient unless you actually run with two of themGǪ and that's just slow and cumbersome compared to using an actual industrial hauler.
The Mack is not a good fleet hauler. It sacrifices yield for something you don't need GÇö space. It is also not a particularly good transport since it's slower, costlier, completely lacking in versatility (not to mention longer to train for). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.08.12 13:49:00 -
[36] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:Tikera Tissant wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote: Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.
Maybe you mean 55% extra yield with orca pilot skills and gank modules? And that is for every ship in the fleet. And you are for some reason keep forgetting the cycle losses from having to go back to the station. 2 hulks+orca = 4 machinaws give or take. It's assumed that if you're using an orca to boost the hulks then you would be using an orca to boost the macks. 2 max yield hulks + orca is only 9% more yield than 2 max yield macks + orca. The biggest difference is macks hold more than 4 times the ore, far less effort is needed and in paticular when mining ice this far outweighs any benefit you gain from the 9% more yield the hulk setup would give. You can literally leave your computer alone for half an hour while you fill up on ore, allowing you put out far longer mining sessions than you could in a hulk. CCP wanted to do away with there being one best barge, before that was the hulk. All they've achieved is making the mackinkaw the new king barge and entirely crashed the ice market at the same time. The market prices of the hulk and mackinkaw reflect this, their prices have been completely reversed. The new mackinkaw costs the same amount as the old hulk, the new hulk costs the same amount as the old mackinkaw. The market doesn't lie. The majority are mining in Mackinkaws. Why talk about Ice mining the prices are starting to flat line. You make a lot more money mining rocks because its not an afk activity. As to the market, have you considered that as it's a supply an demand market that atm a lot of solo miners are changing ships so the market cost has gone up because of demand?
Yes, when the top barge loses its spot as the best mining barge as is replaced by another, it is expected that everyone will dump their hulks and switch to macks instead. Macks are in high demand and hulks are being dumped like an annoying girlfriend. Supply and demand, most people are switching to the new best barge. |
Tikera Tissant
39
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Posted - 2012.08.12 13:52:00 -
[37] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:
It's assumed that if you're using an orca to boost the hulks then you would be using an orca to boost the macks. 2 max yield hulks + orca is only 9% more yield than 2 max yield macks + orca.
The biggest difference is macks hold more than 4 times the ore, far less effort is needed and in paticular when mining ice this far outweighs any benefit you gain from the 9% more yield the hulk setup would give. You can literally leave your computer alone for half an hour while you fill up on ore, allowing you put out far longer mining sessions than you could in a hulk.
CCP wanted to do away with there being one best barge, before that was the hulk. All they've achieved is making the mackinkaw the new king barge and entirely crashed the ice market at the same time. The market prices of the hulk and mackinkaw reflect this, their prices have been completely reversed. The new mackinkaw costs the same amount as the old hulk, the new hulk costs the same amount as the old mackinkaw. The market doesn't lie. The majority are mining in Mackinkaws.
The market also doesn't tell the truth either. The prices has also been changed because of manufacturing cost has also changed, plus its semi artificially being manipulated, as the demand of mackinaws has increased slightly, but not majorly. And as some solo miners switch to mackinaws, the manipulators are getting the hulks for cheaper. Same as the people who stole the retrievers from the market and are now selling them for a huge profit.
Also you said earlier "all mackinaws", not macks + orca. And people who mined ice already had mackinaws before for ice mining. That also didn't change at all. And afk mining ore? Seriously? go afk for 30 minutes and you come back after your ship sat for 15 minutes doing nothing because the ore you mined went empty. Mining ore afk is a complete waste of time.
And no, I don't agree with you that the majority moved to mackinaws. The majority will still be using what they used before the change, the hulk. New people might move to mackinaws, but most team miners will still go for hulks. |
Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 13:54:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold. You need to check your bonuses, unless you run the Mack with three MLU/IHUs, in which case it's not noticeably stronger than the Hulk. The size of the Hulk's ore hold is utterly irrelevant since you're not going to use it other than as a transition buffer. For all intents and purposes, it can be considered infinite. Quote:The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though. GǪexcept that doing so means you lose the boosts for long periods of time, which reduces your yield. So instead you use the Orca as a huge cargo can GÇö another transfer buffer from which the actual haulers pull ore and take back to base. So no, using the Orca as a belt shuttle is hideously inefficient unless you actually run with two of themGǪ and that's just slow and cumbersome compared to using an actual industrial hauler.
I don't need to check anything, a mack can have near 20k EHP with 3 upgrades, which is enough.
The ore hold size is very relevant, with the hulk you need to do a lot more work, it's far more intensive, with the mack you can have a very laid back, semi afk or even totally afk mining session, you could even go make dinner and eat it, come back and you're still not fully on ore, that is an undeniably huge bonus. |
Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 13:56:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tikera Tissant wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:
It's assumed that if you're using an orca to boost the hulks then you would be using an orca to boost the macks. 2 max yield hulks + orca is only 9% more yield than 2 max yield macks + orca.
The biggest difference is macks hold more than 4 times the ore, far less effort is needed and in paticular when mining ice this far outweighs any benefit you gain from the 9% more yield the hulk setup would give. You can literally leave your computer alone for half an hour while you fill up on ore, allowing you put out far longer mining sessions than you could in a hulk.
CCP wanted to do away with there being one best barge, before that was the hulk. All they've achieved is making the mackinkaw the new king barge and entirely crashed the ice market at the same time. The market prices of the hulk and mackinkaw reflect this, their prices have been completely reversed. The new mackinkaw costs the same amount as the old hulk, the new hulk costs the same amount as the old mackinkaw. The market doesn't lie. The majority are mining in Mackinkaws.
The market also doesn't tell the truth either. The prices has also been changed because of manufacturing cost has also changed, plus its semi artificially being manipulated, as the demand of mackinaws has increased slightly, but not majorly. And as some solo miners switch to mackinaws, the manipulators are getting the hulks for cheaper. Same as the people who stole the retrievers from the market and are now selling them for a huge profit. Also you said earlier "all mackinaws", not macks + orca. And people who mined ice already had mackinaws before for ice mining. That also didn't change at all. And afk mining ore? Seriously? go afk for 30 minutes and you come back after your ship sat for 15 minutes doing nothing because the ore you mined went empty. Mining ore afk is a complete waste of time. And no, I don't agree with you that the majority moved to mackinaws. The majority will still be using what they used before the change, the hulk. New people might move to mackinaws, but most team miners will still go for hulks.
The belt numbers don't lie, most people are using mackinkaws and it's T1 equivalent, retrievers. |
Hiyora Akachi
Bling Ring Tax Evaders
97
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 14:12:00 -
[40] - Quote
Yes, because they're the solo AFK miners. The corp miners who have access to an Orca are still using the hulks because with the bonuses from the Orca they have a better yield than a Macki.
Oh, also. Posting in a stealth "Why hulk not Miner god" thread. |
|
Tikera Tissant
39
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 14:20:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote: The belt numbers don't lie, most people are using mackinkaws and it's T1 equivalent, retrievers.
May I see those statistical numbers which shows exactly those numbers in full and through out the whole eve space?
Until than, the majority of the people where I live for example, are still flying hulks in ore belts with orca supports. None of them have moved to mackinaws.
And as said, solo players will of course use mackinaws instead of hulks. That doesn't mean the macks are the new gods.
And people who were flying retrievers, are still flying retrievers. They are cheap and still good. That didn't change one bit. |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
492
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 14:24:00 -
[42] - Quote
LilRemmy wrote:Mining too easy now? I don't get this whine. ~pr0 mining~ Nothing Found |
Piugattuk
CLOROFLORFILAPLANKTONPLATES
14
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 14:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
Do you really want eve economy to become the Zimbabwe economy? prices for everything is out of wack, if miners can get back to work maybe this price madness will become sane again, besides if they are truly not bots this just made the hulk a true mining machine for corps dedicated to mining and those same bots will have to move over to the Mack or retriever making them easily identified as such because its all about cargo space where as the skiff is a great solo simi AFK ship with enough tank to make its a obvious choice for solo miner. |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
443
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 14:39:00 -
[44] - Quote
OP the mack is hardly the best barge out there. It has been listed several times in several different threads. Which barge you use is highly conditional.
You might want to do a little more research next time.
EVERYBODY KNOWS |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9002
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 14:47:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:I don't need to check anything GǪaside from your numbers, if you're going to make those claims. So no, the Hulk is a good upgrade and provides a significant boost when flown in fleets. It isn't significantly weaker and/or it has a good yield increase over the Mack.
Quote:The ore hold size is very relevant, with the hulk you need to do a lot more work, it's far more intensive GǪwhich doesn't matter since nothing stays in the ore hold and since you can always get it out of there before the next cycle hits. It's just there so the game doesn't spaz out when a cycle ends. Since it'll have fleet support (and, most notably, hauler support), the hold is effectively infinite and entirely irrelevant.
Either way, no, the Mack does not in any way obsolete industrials. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Toroup
Prometheus Deep Core Mining
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 15:22:00 -
[46] - Quote
The ice market has been crashed for a long time - White Glaze is consistently 260-270k per unit and nothing has changed. Anyone who thinks that the ice market is any different either had never mined ice or just doesn't pay attention.
End of the day, ore mining is much more profitable (to the tune of 22M/hour vs about 10M for ice). Like anything, you can't maximize output AFK. So those who want to bot/AFK will mine ice - but they are already the majority of those doing it. Those who want more isk will mine ore and will have to be ATK unless you want to mine a large rock of Veld (with Massive Scordite being the best hi-sec ore right now).
As far as the Hulk vs Mack - Hulk is a higher yield. Period. So if you jetcan or have a hauler it is more isk per hour. If you worry about can flippers or ore thieves then use a Mack. They all have their purpose. For me, I use a Covie and jetcan - better yield than a Mack and not much replacement cost if it gets spaced. Since I mine out a station that has a 0 take for refining, I refine the ore and haul it in with an industrial (since I don't have a 0 take in Jita). |
Tyrton
Imbecile MIiss Managment and Disasters Intergalactic Interstellar Interns
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 15:28:00 -
[47] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. GǪfor which a top-end industrial is still a better choice since it does it faster and in larger volume. In teams in particular, it allows you to switch from Macks to Hulk+Orca combos and leave everyone else in the belt, nicely boosted up. And even if this rather secondary use for industrials was ever so slightly intruded on by the Mack, then so what? It just means the Mack is doing its job as a solo miner and it doesn't make any difference for the value of industrials at large. Quote:The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. Good news: they don't. There is no imbalance.
Tippia I know you love this, taking apart someones one sided argument, how do you have the patience to hear the same argument over and over in different words ... It is quite apparent that he/she/it just plain refuses to even acknowledge that there is another side to this debate ..
Keep up the good fight the very least makes an "I hate change thread" entertaining. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
512
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 15:44:00 -
[48] - Quote
I think what needs to be done now is to get rid of NPC corps... now that you cant just insta gank these things anymore you should be able to war dec these people... just force them into thier respective faction warfare corp and there you have it... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2338
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 15:47:00 -
[49] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Tippia wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold. You need to check your bonuses, unless you run the Mack with three MLU/IHUs, in which case it's not noticeably stronger than the Hulk. The size of the Hulk's ore hold is utterly irrelevant since you're not going to use it other than as a transition buffer. For all intents and purposes, it can be considered infinite. Quote:The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though. GǪexcept that doing so means you lose the boosts for long periods of time, which reduces your yield. So instead you use the Orca as a huge cargo can GÇö another transfer buffer from which the actual haulers pull ore and take back to base. So no, using the Orca as a belt shuttle is hideously inefficient unless you actually run with two of themGǪ and that's just slow and cumbersome compared to using an actual industrial hauler. I don't need to check anything, a mack can have near 20k EHP with 3 upgrades, which is enough. The ore hold size is very relevant, with the hulk you need to do a lot more work, it's far more intensive, with the mack you can have a very laid back, semi afk or even totally afk mining session, you could even go make dinner and eat it, come back and you're still not full on ore, that is an undeniably huge bonus. This applies to ice mining obviously.
In the race between greedy and lazy, lazy (for the moment) is winning.
Whodathunkit? To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4300
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 15:49:00 -
[50] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:I think what needs to be done now is to get rid of NPC corps... now that you cant just insta gank these things anymore you should be able to war dec these people... just force them into thier respective faction warfare corp and there you have it...
Heh they can most definitely be ganked, easily "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
|
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
253
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 15:52:00 -
[51] - Quote
I would love to have been a fly on the wall when the discussions of mining barge spec changes were taking place.
Given Soundwave's antipathy towards high sec, especially when it comes to afk income, there must have been real wars inside CCP to get these changes through.
Thank goodness some sanity prevailed within CCP and these changes were made.
And yes, I have read Soundwave's comments defending these changes. He is toeing the company line, which is what he should do. |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
132
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 15:52:00 -
[52] - Quote
The rebalance is nice, but they pretty much screwed the hulk over completely.
The yield on the skiff and mack is way too close to the hulk. The mack gets a good tank. The skiff has a very good ore hold. The hulk has a small margin in yield, no tank, and no storage capacity.
Remove the extra yield role bonus from the mack and retriever, and give the skiff and proc a bonus to make it equivalent to the mack. There is no reason why they should have comparable yield to the hulk, when the hulk has nowhere near the tank or storage the other 2 both get. I wouldn't even fly a hulk in perfectly supported and protected null ops, which is what it is now designed for. I'd take a mack so I wouldn't have to pay as much attention, with the hold and the tank for the rat spawns. |
Lilianna Star
State War Academy Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 15:58:00 -
[53] - Quote
Hulk still has better yield so it's still better for ops. |
Fearless M0F0
Incursion PWNAGE Asc
42
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:01:00 -
[54] - Quote
I don't see the point of this thread. I'm pretty sure the only industrial with capacity for a full jetcan is the rigged Iteron V. So you are whining because you don't need rigged Itty 5 in ur mining ops anymore?
Also, the patch is like... 5 days old, kinda premature to complain about exhumer prices, isn't it? |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
148
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:02:00 -
[55] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:The hulk has a small margin in yield
Only ship that gets close is Covetor.
Dorian Wylde wrote:no tank
[Hulk, 31,3k EHP]
Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Dorian Wylde wrote:and no storage capacity.
101k + 50k + 40k m3.
[Orca]
Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization II Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement II Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing II
Large Cargohold Optimization II Large Cargohold Optimization II Large Cargohold Optimization I
|
Skeln Thargensen
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:09:00 -
[56] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:I think what needs to be done now is to get rid of NPC corps... now that you cant just insta gank these things anymore you should be able to war dec these people... just force them into thier respective faction warfare corp and there you have it...
you can still pop retrievers and mackinaws. it's just more expensive or more difficult, depending whether you intend on bringing a buddy. (or seven)
Anyway, people with sense just retreated into mining missions instead of bleating about the gankers before. they are now awash with targets if they have the ISK to blow. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
512
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:11:00 -
[57] - Quote
Andski wrote:MeBiatch wrote:I think what needs to be done now is to get rid of NPC corps... now that you cant just insta gank these things anymore you should be able to war dec these people... just force them into thier respective faction warfare corp and there you have it... Heh they can most definitely be ganked, easily
i was runing the number got around a 30k ehp tank on the mack... not bad... not safe either...
how many catalysts do you need now to kill one?
with heat on you get what 650 dps out of each one? so 4 do 2600 dps so in 11 seconds its dead... not bad at all i guess... just takes more coordination... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Julien Brellier
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:14:00 -
[58] - Quote
Hulk just got more hitpoints, more cpu and more powergird. It has a stronger tank than before the patch and it still by far the king of pure yield. Before the patch your Hulk would fill up in perhaps 3 cycles and now it's gone down to one. Hulk pilots now have to pay a little bit more attention during mining ops. Boo hoooooooooo |
Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:25:00 -
[59] - Quote
Julien Brellier wrote:Hulk just got more hitpoints, more cpu and more powergird. It has a stronger tank than before the patch and it still by far the king of pure yield. Before the patch your Hulk would fill up in perhaps 3 cycles and now it's gone down to one. Hulk pilots now have to pay a little bit more attention during mining ops. Boo hoooooooooo
More yield by far? You call 9% a lot? Infact all of the barges yields are very close to each. The mackinkaws tank is also stronger , even when running a max yield fit than the max yield Hulk.
Hulk, 9% more yield than Mack Mack, over 400% more ore holding space than Hulk
Cargo space is a godsend, i don't know why they decided to make it so stupidly high. |
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
61
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:29:00 -
[60] - Quote
Greetings
Eve pilots. Never a more finicky crew of panty waists and complainers. The reason the barges were buffed was because of a successful never ending b*tching campaign by the "bears" of EVE. The intend of which was to increase mining by introducing roll based ships as opposed to linear progression based ships , making minerals more available, driving manufacturing costs down, and stabilizing the market. Add the addition of Alchemy in an attempt to stabilize Tech and T2 prices, we might also see a decrease in ship prices as well.
2 cents IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES: -á" I drank WHAT?!" |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9011
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:34:00 -
[61] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:More yield by far? You call 9% a lot? Infact all of the barges yields are very close to each. The mackinkaws tank is also stronger , even when running a max yield fit than the max yield Hulk.
Hulk, 9% more yield than Mack Mack, over 400% more ore holding space than Hulk
Cargo space is a godsend, i don't know why they decided to make it so stupidly high. Yes, 25% more yield for a comparable fit indeed makes the king by far, and if you try to make up for that difference, you suffer by making the Mack a hell of a lot easier to kill, which, since it screams GÇ£I'm AFKGÇ¥, is a bad thing.
The reason it got the cargo space it got is because it's intended to replace jet cans. The reason the Hulk didn't get it is because it doesn't need it, since the fleet provides an infinitely deep hole to pour it into.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
512
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:35:00 -
[62] - Quote
Easthir Ravin wrote:Greetings
Eve pilots. Never a more finicky crew of panty waists and complainers. The reason the barges were buffed was because of a successful never ending b*tching campaign by the "bears" of EVE. The intend of which was to increase mining by introducing roll based ships as opposed to linear progression based ships , making minerals more available, driving manufacturing costs down, and stabilizing the market. Add the addition of Alchemy in an attempt to stabilize Tech and T2 prices, we might also see a decrease in ship prices as well.
2 cents
mmmmm roll based ships...
i am hungry now
Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
512
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:36:00 -
[63] - Quote
Tippia wrote:, since the fleet provides an infinitely deep hole to pour it into.
yeah i had the same situation with your mom last night...
i had no clue where to put my load... too much room IMO>>>
Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4302
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:38:00 -
[64] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Andski wrote:MeBiatch wrote:I think what needs to be done now is to get rid of NPC corps... now that you cant just insta gank these things anymore you should be able to war dec these people... just force them into thier respective faction warfare corp and there you have it... Heh they can most definitely be ganked, easily i was runing the number got around a 30k ehp tank on the mack... not bad... not safe either... how many catalysts do you need now to kill one? with heat on you get what 650 dps out of each one? so 4 do 2600 dps so in 11 seconds its dead... not bad at all i guess... just takes more coordination...
650 DPS is only with all skills at V, void and heat on an all-neutron catalyst, which you can't fit a scram+web on with 3 magstabs. It's more reasonable to assume 460 dps with heat and named blasters with faction ammo or 580 dps on a 5 neutron/2 ion catalyst with CPU rigs.
You can get 47k EHP against blasters if you brick it and keep hardeners preheated FYI "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:45:00 -
[65] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:More yield by far? You call 9% a lot? Infact all of the barges yields are very close to each. The mackinkaws tank is also stronger , even when running a max yield fit than the max yield Hulk.
Hulk, 9% more yield than Mack Mack, over 400% more ore holding space than Hulk
Cargo space is a godsend, i don't know why they decided to make it so stupidly high. Yes, 25% more yield for a comparable fit indeed makes the king by far, and if you try to make up for that difference, you suffer by making the Mack a hell of a lot easier to kill, which, since it screams GÇ£I'm AFKGÇ¥, is a bad thing. The reason it got the cargo space it got is because it's intended to replace jet cans. The reason the Hulk didn't get it is because it doesn't need it, since the fleet provides an infinitely deep hole to pour it into.
Now you've proved how clueless you are on the situation. Quoted so you can't try to hide the rubbish you just wrote. Mackinkaw beats hulk on tank in every comparable yield situation between the two. It has more hull, armor, shields, more spare CPU and GRID once mining lasers/harvesters are equipped.
25% more yield with comparable tank? LOL the jokes on you.
The only thing hulk has going for it over the mackinkaw is 9% more yield in a max yield setup. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
10033
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:59:00 -
[66] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:The only thing hulk has going for it over the mackinkaw is 9% more yield in a max yield setup. You're one of the reasons I liked the change, because there will always be those fitting for max yield and then crying when they diaf.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:10:00 -
[67] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:The only thing hulk has going for it over the mackinkaw is 9% more yield in a max yield setup. You're one of the reasons I liked the change, because there will always be those fitting for max yield and then crying when they diaf.
You like the change? You like that a max yield Mackinkaw can now reach 20k EHP, which is as much as a fully tanked prepatch mackinkaw could get.
Also you failed to see the point, max yield or not, a Mackinkaw tanks better than a comparably tanked Hulk. Some guy posted a hulk fitting with no mining upgrades but 31k EHP, the max yield mack outmines that hulk by 9%. If the mack removed one mining upgrade and fitted extra tank, it could reach much higher levels of tank and maintain the same yield as that same hulk. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4303
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:17:00 -
[68] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:You like that a max yield Mackinkaw can now reach 20k EHP, which is as much as a fully tanked prepatch mackinkaw could get.
Hey we're not going to stop you from thinking that 20k EHP isn't paper-thin. "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
492
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:18:00 -
[69] - Quote
ITT we get a buff, then whine. Nothing Found |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9011
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:25:00 -
[70] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Mackinkaw beats hulk on tank in every comparable yield situation between the two. GǪby such a small margin that you might as well use the Hulk if you're going for max yield on the Mack. A significant part of the Mack's improved tank lies in that third lowslot GÇö if you ignore it and go for yield instead, you certainly come a bit close to the Hulk in terms of yield, but you also becomes so much weaker that you've just wasted one of its strong points. You are now flying a ship that tells everyone that you are AFK, and if you only get 20k EHP out of it, you have wasted a third of its tanking potential in at attempt to still be mine less than the Hulk.
Quote:25% more yield with comparable tank? No. 25% more yield with a comparable fit. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
|
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
10035
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:30:00 -
[71] - Quote
Andski wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:You like that a max yield Mackinkaw can now reach 20k EHP, which is as much as a fully tanked prepatch mackinkaw could get. Hey we're not going to stop you from thinking that 20k EHP isn't paper-thin. Hey I'm good with everything the little Tigress says tbh.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:34:00 -
[72] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:Mackinkaw beats hulk on tank in every comparable yield situation between the two. GǪby such a small margin that you might as well use the Hulk if you're going for max yield on the Mack. A significant part of the Mack's improved tank lies in that third lowslot GÇö if you ignore it and go for yield instead, you certainly come a bit close to the Hulk in terms of yield, but you also becomes so much weaker that you've just wasted one of its strong points. You are now flying a ship that tells everyone that you are AFK, and if you only get 20k EHP out of it, you have wasted a third of its tanking potential in at attempt to still be mine less than the Hulk, so guess what happens when they come flocking to that big GÇ£I'm AFKGÇ¥ neon sign you've erectedGǪ Quote:25% more yield with comparable tank? No. 25% more yield with a comparable fit.
Give an example of this 25% more yield with a comparable fit. Incase you don't bother, i'll do one for you.
Hulk, 2 mining laser upgrades, leaving hardly any room for tank, be lucky to get 15k EHP, but this is a must in order to achieve 25% yield over the mack. Mackinkaw, to have 25% less yield it's forced to use no more than 1 mining laser upgrade. Lots of room left to make a 30k+ EHP tank.
Is this what you mean? It's very pointless and very fail. |
Tikera Tissant
39
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:35:00 -
[73] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Yes, 25% more yield for a comparable fit indeed
At least ore wise, fully skilled with perfect orca boosting, its about 15% difference in m3 on ore mining. Not 9% but not 25%. |
Abel Merkabah
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
94
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:36:00 -
[74] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Julien Brellier wrote:Hulk just got more hitpoints, more cpu and more powergird. It has a stronger tank than before the patch and it still by far the king of pure yield. Before the patch your Hulk would fill up in perhaps 3 cycles and now it's gone down to one. Hulk pilots now have to pay a little bit more attention during mining ops. Boo hoooooooooo More yield by far? You call 9% a lot? Infact all of the barges yields are very close to each. The mackinkaws tank is also stronger , even when running a max yield fit than the max yield Hulk. Hulk, 9% more yield than Mack Mack, over 400% more ore holding space than Hulk Cargo space is a godsend, i don't know why they decided to make it so stupidly high.
+9% yeild per cycle?
If that is the case, that is significant over time.
Not a miner so I don't understand the intricacies of fitting mining ships...but 9% extra DPS for a ship would be a great bonus...just saying...
As for Mack hold space, give both orca support and which would you rather have? From what I understand, orca support makes cargo hold size irrelevent. So that 9% looks much better with an orca there...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but after all the discussion on this, I think I have this understood; not even a miner and it makes sense, how can people that do this for a "career" not get it? "The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vacuuming systems." |
Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:36:00 -
[75] - Quote
Tikera Tissant wrote:Tippia wrote:[quote=Tigress Tionese]Yes, 25% more yield for a comparable fit indeed At least ore wise, fully skilled with perfect orca boosting, its about 15% difference in m3 on ore mining. Not 9% but not 25%.
With ore 15% may be closer, but with ice it's only 9%. I'm glad someone else sees that the 25% number is ridiculous. |
Sarton Wells
Blackmoon Ltd.
14
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:44:00 -
[76] - Quote
Since you don't seem to understand - the mackinaw is a solo ship. As such the only reasonable fit is to go full tank since you'll be a prime target for gankers. The hulk's role is a fleet ship and as such it should go full yield since it has the protection of the fleet. When you compare the yield of the two in their respective optimal situations the difference in yield is huge. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9011
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:45:00 -
[77] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Give an example of this 25% more yield with a comparable fit. Incase you don't bother, i'll do one for you. Full set of miners, same amount of upgrades, the rest tank (and filling out any remaining slots with some low-CPU stuff since you'll be very low on both ships). This means that we're only really seeing the inherent differences in the ship bonuses which, as it happens, turn out to be +15%+15% compared to +5%GǪ The difference is a bit over 25% (closer to 26% actually, and we haven't included the loss from travel time on the Mack).
In such a situation, the Hulk will sit at ~20k EHP and the Mack at ~35k.
Ripping out the suitcase on the Mack and replacing it with an MLU means you have to start losing hardeners and are edging towards low-20k EHP instead. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Tikera Tissant
39
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:47:00 -
[78] - Quote
Abel Merkabah wrote: Not a miner so I don't understand the intricacies of fitting mining ships...but 9% extra DPS for a ship would be a great bonus...just saying...
TBH I think the argument is just about which ship is the "king" of afk mining. If it was a 40% less yield ship, they would still king it if it means going to the gym for 5 hours and coming back with a full cargo...
I think its a pretty silly argument. EvE is not about going AFK. |
Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:54:00 -
[79] - Quote
Sarton Wells wrote:Since you don't seem to understand - the mackinaw is a solo ship. As such the only reasonable fit is to go full tank since you'll be a prime target for gankers. The hulk's role is a fleet ship and as such it should go full yield since it has the protection of the fleet. When you compare the yield of the two in their respective optimal situations the difference in yield is huge.
Rubbish, a well skilled mackinkaw with max yield fitting has enough tank that even 3 max dps catalysts may sometimes fail to kill it, they'd need 4 max dps catalysts to be on the safe side.
And since when did being in a fleet protect you from suicide ganks? That's also rubbish. Gankers look for the exhumers with the lowest EHP first and being in a fleet with other miners, well, what do you expect them to do? Mine the ganker? |
Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:56:00 -
[80] - Quote
Tikera Tissant wrote:Abel Merkabah wrote: Not a miner so I don't understand the intricacies of fitting mining ships...but 9% extra DPS for a ship would be a great bonus...just saying...
TBH I think the argument is just about which ship is the "king" of afk mining. If it was a 40% less yield ship, they would still king it if it means going to the gym for 5 hours and coming back with a full cargo... I think its a pretty silly argument. EvE is not about going AFK.
Right, eve isn't about AFK, so then why we do now have the mackinkaw with an ore hold that let's it AFK mine for up to an hour. Even a max yield Mackinkaw with orca bonuses is going to take 30 minutes to fill up with ice.
|
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Alyth
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:56:00 -
[81] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Andski wrote:MeBiatch wrote:I think what needs to be done now is to get rid of NPC corps... now that you cant just insta gank these things anymore you should be able to war dec these people... just force them into thier respective faction warfare corp and there you have it... Heh they can most definitely be ganked, easily i was runing the number got around a 30k ehp tank on the mack... not bad... not safe either... how many catalysts do you need now to kill one? with heat on you get what 650 dps out of each one? so 4 do 2600 dps so in 11 seconds its dead... not bad at all i guess... just takes more coordination...
Yes, you could do that, The question is, why would you considering that each Cat costs like 15m each (last I checked, not been ingame for months) so based on that you'd need 60m worth of drops to just break even. |
Sarton Wells
Blackmoon Ltd.
14
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:57:00 -
[82] - Quote
Care to share that fit? And a mining fleet without combat ship protection is not much different than a solo miner. Although you still have more options such as using webifiers and aligning to safe spots. Which again makes the tank argument pointless. |
baltec1
Bat Country
1859
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:59:00 -
[83] - Quote
Alyth wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Andski wrote:MeBiatch wrote:I think what needs to be done now is to get rid of NPC corps... now that you cant just insta gank these things anymore you should be able to war dec these people... just force them into thier respective faction warfare corp and there you have it... Heh they can most definitely be ganked, easily i was runing the number got around a 30k ehp tank on the mack... not bad... not safe either... how many catalysts do you need now to kill one? with heat on you get what 650 dps out of each one? so 4 do 2600 dps so in 11 seconds its dead... not bad at all i guess... just takes more coordination... Yes, you could do that, The question is, why would you considering that each Cat costs like 15m each (last I checked, not been ingame for months) so based on that you'd need 60m worth of drops to just break even.
3-4 mil per cat is considered expensive |
Abel Merkabah
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
94
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 18:03:00 -
[84] - Quote
Tikera Tissant wrote:Abel Merkabah wrote: Not a miner so I don't understand the intricacies of fitting mining ships...but 9% extra DPS for a ship would be a great bonus...just saying...
TBH I think the argument is just about which ship is the "king" of afk mining. If it was a 40% less yield ship, they would still king it if it means going to the gym for 5 hours and coming back with a full cargo... I think its a pretty silly argument. EvE is not about going AFK.
Yeah I go that...lol...was just trying to bait the other person into stating/implying it...lol... "The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vacuuming systems." |
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 18:06:00 -
[85] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Tippia wrote:Suddenly Boom wrote:Unless you're using that industrial ship to haul ore from the belt, which is more its primary use. Its primary use is to haul stuff all over the place. It does that far better than the Mack can ever wish for. The one minor use-case of hauling ore from a belt to a station is still there for group mining efforts for much the same reason: because an industrial can be made to haul more and can be far more flexible in terms of what it carries (eg. all those mining crystals that Hulk users have been whinging about). All the Mack does is allow you to stay in the belt for longer before returning to station, and in that scenario, no hauler is involved to begin with so nothing has been replaced. If you intend never to leave the belt to begin with, then you still need that indy since it does the job far better. Claiming that the every-day haulers is losing its role as an every-day hauler to a ship that cannot actually haul stuff is downright silly. As a point of comparison, a Mack can bring just over 1M units of trit to the market; a mega-haul Itty V can bring nearly 4MGǪ or 86M units if you employ a bit of compression. For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore. The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. If you really want a dedicated hauler anyway, just use another Mackinkaw, it can mine between hauling sessions. If you're going to do that though you may aswell just use each miner as its own hauler anyway. God, this is so dumb.
uhhh....yeah, I think that's one of the things miners wanted and got. They should probably lower the yield, AFK miners shouldn't make so much ISK. Ice is gonna' crash hard. |
Jacey Distribute
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 18:12:00 -
[86] - Quote
i think everyone is missing the point
IMO:
for solo mining the mak would be better, u cant really compare a mak to a hulk in solo mining, who in their right mind solo mine in a hulk? too much back and forth action
for OPs/non-solo mining of course the orca + hulk is gonna be better than a orca + mak
and for the people saying "oh its just 9%" hell, 9% is a ton of ISK, when it adds up |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9011
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 18:15:00 -
[87] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alyth wrote:Yes, you could do that, The question is, why would you considering that each Cat costs like 15m each (last I checked, not been ingame for months) so based on that you'd need 60m worth of drops to just break even. 3-4 mil per cat is considered expensive To be fair, the much-feared Gǣmax DPSGǥ Cat does indeed set you back roughly 15M at Jita pricesGǪ
GǪbut if you can settle for a little less damage, the price sure drops veeery quickly. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Surge Roth
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
46
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 18:16:00 -
[88] - Quote
I'm glad the ice market is crashing. It'll make fueling my POS easier. |
Tikera Tissant
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 18:30:00 -
[89] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:Give an example of this 25% more yield with a comparable fit. Incase you don't bother, i'll do one for you. Full set of miners, same amount of upgrades, the rest tank (and filling out any remaining slots with some low-CPU stuff since you'll be very low on both ships). This means that we're only really seeing the inherent differences in the ship bonuses which, as it happens, turn out to be +15%+15% compared to +5%GǪ The difference is a bit over 25% (closer to 26% actually, and we haven't included the loss from travel time on the Mack). In such a situation, the Hulk will sit at ~20k EHP and the Mack at ~35k. Ripping out the suitcase on the Mack and replacing it with an MLU means you have to start losing hardeners and are edging towards low-20k EHP instead.
|
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 18:30:00 -
[90] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote: The only thing hulk has going for it over the mackinkaw is 9% more yield in a max yield setup.
Yes, that is it's role, more yield. That is it's stated purpose, more yield. What's the problem, here? You admitted yourself it has more yield, Hulk working as intended. |
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Illest Insurrectionist
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 18:34:00 -
[91] - Quote
Tippia wrote:baltec1 wrote:Alyth wrote:Yes, you could do that, The question is, why would you considering that each Cat costs like 15m each (last I checked, not been ingame for months) so based on that you'd need 60m worth of drops to just break even. 3-4 mil per cat is considered expensive To be fair, the much-feared Gǣmax DPSGǥ Cat does indeed set you back roughly 15M at Jita pricesGǪ GǪbut if you can settle for a little less damage, the price sure drops veeery quickly.
A max damage cat also does a lot more than 600.
Beyond that half of the cat's gear drops too. So 1.3 mil loss for the ship then half the equipment.
I got a:
gistii-b booster http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14311548
pithi-b booster http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14310410
gistum-c booster & palisade cap recharger http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14308989
All today.
Hulks/Macks also salvage for up to 3 intact plates or 3 power things.
Forum posters give miners too much credit:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14310936 http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14310628 http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14310010
Those were today as well. |
Jacob Creed
Mad Mystics Of Maniacal Mayhem Cosmic Legion of Interstellar Travelers
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 18:41:00 -
[92] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote: The only thing hulk has going for it over the mackinkaw is 9% more yield in a max yield setup.
Yes, that is it's role, more yield. That is it's stated purpose, more yield. What's the problem, here? You admitted yourself it has more yield, Hulk working as intended.
My synopsis of the last 4-5 pages of "GRRR damn you new Macks!" seems to be a bunch of angry Hulk pilots who are upset about toys the other kids are playing with.
Sure, they could simply switch to the new toy as well, but they don't want to lose the absolute maximum output and have to field a new fleet of ships. They just don't want anyone else not in a Hulk to have a good time.
Just come out and say it next time instead of replying to people for 4 pages beating around the bush. |
Vigilant
Vigilant's Vigilante's
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 19:10:00 -
[93] - Quote
Mining Ice as I post this thread now. I check local like I am in null, and watch every warp in like its a combat op gone wrong. But, hey I am paranoid
Ice is easy mining, no work involved and can be done afk. I am not mining for any profit right now myself, got a tower to feed in the near future
The thing i don't see being talking about is, belt respawn times either need to be upped or something done about the rocks. I check three systems in Genesis, belts stripped clean. And some of those belts were massive pre-patch. |
baltec1
Bat Country
1860
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 19:16:00 -
[94] - Quote
Vigilant wrote:Mining Ice as I post this thread now. I check local like I am in null, and watch every warp in like its a combat op gone wrong. But, hey I am paranoid Ice is easy mining, no work involved and can be done afk. I am not mining for any profit right now myself, got a tower to feed in the near future The thing i don't see being talking about is, belt respawn times either need to be upped or something done about the rocks. I check three systems in Genesis, belts stripped clean. And some of those belts were massive pre-patch.
Go to lowsec, those belts are rich in rocks. |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
576
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 20:27:00 -
[95] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote: There's one main reason for this. 35k m3 ore hold, not far below that of an ORCA. Does anyone else think that the devs didn't think this through too well? I can't see many miners not taking a Mackinkaw over a Hulk even with Orca support, because 35k m3 ore hold allows them to do other things while your Mackinkaw pulls in what is basically an afk income for at least half an hour at a time.
Er, real mining happens in nullsec. The Rorqual has a 250k m3 ore hold, and you can fit 126k m3 in the cargo and another 30k m3 in the corp hangars, for a total of 406k m3, with T1 expander rigs. More with T2 but I don't have them on my rorq so I haven't worked it out.
The Orca can be gotten to 100km3 cargo with T2 rigs, and don't forget the 40k m3 corp hangar and 50k m3 ore hold, for a total of 190k m3 in your Orca. Why is 35k m3 presenting a problem to you? Get some skills. Fit your ship right. Mine where you're supposed to be profitable at mining.
As for "the effect on the ice market", noob, ice has been overpriced for a long time, since the goons and the "Gallente Ice Interdiction". Prices aren't falling, they're going back to normal. And that makes us capital pilots happy. Expect more capital ops, and more fluidity in null, since capitals are the sov grinding beasts. |
Renan Ruivo
Irmandade Vera Cruz Alliance
846
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 20:50:00 -
[96] - Quote
Sarton Wells wrote:Since you don't seem to understand - the mackinaw is a solo ship. As such the only reasonable fit is to go full tank since you'll be a prime target for gankers. The hulk's role is a fleet ship and as such it should go full yield since it has the protection of the fleet. When you compare the yield of the two in their respective optimal situations the difference in yield is huge.
"Protection of the fleet"?
I'm curious to know what this protection of the fleet is .... The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
1064
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 21:04:00 -
[97] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Sarton Wells wrote:Since you don't seem to understand - the mackinaw is a solo ship. As such the only reasonable fit is to go full tank since you'll be a prime target for gankers. The hulk's role is a fleet ship and as such it should go full yield since it has the protection of the fleet. When you compare the yield of the two in their respective optimal situations the difference in yield is huge. "Protection of the fleet"? I'm curious to know what this protection of the fleet is ....
I'm guessing: Scouts on the gates (1+ systems out) People ATK Station-less system Possibly lowsec Fleet boosts for shields
|
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 21:30:00 -
[98] - Quote
While scouting for gank targets today I made screenshots of every ship in the belt over a dozen systems. Anyone wondering which barges players are mining in, here are the results.
See for yourself http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3889/vaurent.jpg http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4728/oppold.jpg http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/1461/misneden.jpg http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/4369/kinfield2.jpg http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1443/kinfield1.jpg http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3065/eygm.jpg http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/4093/elona.jpg http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2774/dant.jpg http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/7449/brapelle.jpg http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/4291/ardall.jpg http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/6778/abudban.jpg http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/2702/aakari.jpg
Overwhelming majority are in untanked macs and retties. Plenty of orcas too, but hulks were rare. Yes I scanned a lot of people. |
Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
123
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 21:41:00 -
[99] - Quote
I really don't think the ore hold should be larger than a jetcan. It also shouldn't be any tankier than the hulk. |
Sarton Wells
Blackmoon Ltd.
14
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 21:45:00 -
[100] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Renan Ruivo wrote:Sarton Wells wrote:Since you don't seem to understand - the mackinaw is a solo ship. As such the only reasonable fit is to go full tank since you'll be a prime target for gankers. The hulk's role is a fleet ship and as such it should go full yield since it has the protection of the fleet. When you compare the yield of the two in their respective optimal situations the difference in yield is huge. "Protection of the fleet"? I'm curious to know what this protection of the fleet is .... I'm guessing: Scouts on the gates (1+ systems out) People ATK Station-less system Possibly lowsec Fleet boosts for shields
Admittedly fleet mining is most useful in null/w-space where there's plenty of counter-measures against organized gankers. In high-sec you can still benefit from fleet boosts and align+web. But above all you need to be ATK. People that want to afk can do so in a tanked mackinaw with reduced yield or come back to update their clones. |
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Abel Merkabah
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
94
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 21:46:00 -
[101] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Vigilant wrote:Mining Ice as I post this thread now. I check local like I am in null, and watch every warp in like its a combat op gone wrong. But, hey I am paranoid Ice is easy mining, no work involved and can be done afk. I am not mining for any profit right now myself, got a tower to feed in the near future The thing i don't see being talking about is, belt respawn times either need to be upped or something done about the rocks. I check three systems in Genesis, belts stripped clean. And some of those belts were massive pre-patch. Go to lowsec, those belts are rich in rocks.
I'll second this. If anything, HS roid respawn showed be slowed down; so many unused roids in lowsec. It gets annoying bouncing off them when ratting. Could I get a little miner help? "The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vacuuming systems." |
Deise Koraka
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 21:50:00 -
[102] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Mackinkaw: 287m sell/263m buy Hulk: 224m sell/170m buy Skiff: 190m sell/164m buy
I thought the intention of the barge buff was to remove one barge being best. That being the Hulk. The Mackinkaw has taken the Hulks old roll as king of the barges, the yield is almost as good as the Hulk, it has better tank, and it has a massive ore hold which is the primary thing that's making it so overpowered. Able to mine on ice roids for over half an hour as a semi afk income, it can't be beaten, it has taken the role of the Hulk as the primary choice of barge. Failing that, the retriever, which is almost as good.
There's one main reason for this. 35k m3 ore hold, not far below that of an ORCA. Does anyone else think that the devs didn't think this through too well? I can't see many miners not taking a Mackinkaw over a Hulk even with Orca support, because 35k m3 ore hold allows them to do other things while your Mackinkaw pulls in what is basically an afk income for at least half an hour at a time.
It's already apparent what effect this is having on the ice market. If the trend continues, soon the only people mining ice will be bots and afk alts.
Someone pointed out below that the Mackinkaw hauls ore better than an actual hauler does now. It takes the primary role of a hauler and does it better. You may aswell have just taken the Iteron MK5/Occator and given it mining lasers and hulk like yield. That's what we have now, a super industrial all in one miner and hauler
All it did was make the Mack the choice of high sec solo miners. Hulks still mine more, they just need the support of a corp.
These changes made sure every type of miner had a ship that catered to their mining style of choice, that's all.
____________________________ I am a carebear, and I support High Sec ganking and PvP. Just please, don't blow up my Hulk*. <3
*Mackinaw as of Inferno 1.2 |
James 315
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2320
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 21:54:00 -
[103] - Quote
Deise Koraka wrote:All it did was make the Mack the choice of high sec solo miners. Hulks still mine more, they just need the support of a corp.
These changes made sure every type of miner had a ship that catered to their mining style of choice, that's all.
Not necessarily. You look around the highsec belts and see the extinction of the hulk in favor of the mackinaw. Check the market and note the price changes, too.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ MinerBumping.com -½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½The daily saga of one man's quest to bring civilization to highsec by bumping miners out of range. |
Deise Koraka
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 22:01:00 -
[104] - Quote
James 315 wrote: You look around the highsec belts and see the extinction of the hulk in favor of the mackinaw. Check the market and note the price changes, too.
Didn't I just say it's now the ship of choice for high-sec solo miners...
Well, "The Market" is high sec and....of course that's going to happen, people want to make money off these changes.
Out in 0.0 I'm sure the Hulk will live on, where it has the support of raquals etc.
Even in High sec, with the support of a orca, hulk is still preferable for yield.
____________________________ I am a carebear, and I support High Sec ganking and PvP. Just please, don't blow up my Hulk*. <3
*Mackinaw as of Inferno 1.2 |
Peter Raptor
X-Exclusion-X
270
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 22:15:00 -
[105] - Quote
New Mack is awesome, great change for the downtrodden hisec miners, Goon stranglehold on Eve economy is loosening Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 23:04:00 -
[106] - Quote
Deise Koraka wrote:James 315 wrote: You look around the highsec belts and see the extinction of the hulk in favor of the mackinaw. Check the market and note the price changes, too.
Didn't I just say it's now the ship of choice for high-sec solo miners... Well, "The Market" is high sec and....of course that's going to happen, people want to make money off these changes. Out in 0.0 I'm sure the Hulk will live on, where it has the support of raquals etc. Even in High sec, with the support of a orca, hulk is still preferable for yield.
People in hi-sec with orcas seem to prefer macs, see my screenshots of mac/rettie dominance in the belts on the previous page. |
ashley Eoner
38
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 23:41:00 -
[107] - Quote
Andski wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Andski wrote:MeBiatch wrote:I think what needs to be done now is to get rid of NPC corps... now that you cant just insta gank these things anymore you should be able to war dec these people... just force them into thier respective faction warfare corp and there you have it... Heh they can most definitely be ganked, easily i was runing the number got around a 30k ehp tank on the mack... not bad... not safe either... how many catalysts do you need now to kill one? with heat on you get what 650 dps out of each one? so 4 do 2600 dps so in 11 seconds its dead... not bad at all i guess... just takes more coordination... 650 DPS is only with all skills at V, void and heat on an all-neutron catalyst, which you can't fit a scram+web on with 3 magstabs. It's more reasonable to assume 460 dps with heat and named blasters with faction ammo or 580 dps on a 5 neutron/2 ion catalyst with CPU rigs. You can get 47k EHP against blasters if you brick it and keep hardeners preheated FYI You can easily fit a scam on a gankalyst (web isn't worth bothering with). neutron with void you can easily almost hit 700 dps without implants. if you're willing to invest in implants you can push to over 750 when heated. Sure it'll cost you about 10-15m to do if you buy everything off the market at reasonable prices. You can easily lower the cost per gank by setting buy orders below market value (works quite well) and by reusing components (salvager alt nearby is a given anyway) combined with the payout from the goons you've got quite a bit of subsidizing going on.
Granted I will give you that a heated brick tanked mack is a pain to gank. Fortunately the player has to be paying close attention in order to get the defensive systems heated before I start blasting. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1831
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:14:00 -
[108] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Mackinkaw: 287m sell/263m buy Hulk: 224m sell/170m buy Skiff: 190m sell/164m buy
I thought the intention of the barge buff was to remove one barge being best. That being the Hulk. The Mackinkaw has taken the Hulks old roll as king of the barges, the yield is almost as good as the Hulk, it has better tank, and it has a massive ore hold which is the primary thing that's making it so overpowered.
When I said it before the patch, like here and here was welcome with denial if not utter derision.
Glad to see once again I was right and they wrong.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:21:00 -
[109] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:Mackinkaw: 287m sell/263m buy Hulk: 224m sell/170m buy Skiff: 190m sell/164m buy
I thought the intention of the barge buff was to remove one barge being best. That being the Hulk. The Mackinkaw has taken the Hulks old roll as king of the barges, the yield is almost as good as the Hulk, it has better tank, and it has a massive ore hold which is the primary thing that's making it so overpowered.
When I said it before the patch, like here and here was welcome with denial if not utter derision. Glad to see once again I was right and they wrong.
And the denial doesn't end here either ;) even though the screenshots i posted on the previous page paint a clear picture of just how popular the mac is and how unpopular the hulk has become. I think someone pointed out that market price reflects this too? |
ashley Eoner
38
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:22:00 -
[110] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:Mackinkaw: 287m sell/263m buy Hulk: 224m sell/170m buy Skiff: 190m sell/164m buy
I thought the intention of the barge buff was to remove one barge being best. That being the Hulk. The Mackinkaw has taken the Hulks old roll as king of the barges, the yield is almost as good as the Hulk, it has better tank, and it has a massive ore hold which is the primary thing that's making it so overpowered.
When I said it before the patch, like here and here was welcome with denial if not utter derision. Glad to see once again I was right and they wrong. And the denial doesn't end here either ;) even though belt statistics paint a clear picture of just how popular the mac is and how unpopular the hulk has become. One could also draw the conclusion that solo mining is far more popular in highsec than fleet mining... nawww that makes sense and doesn't jibe with the whole OMG MACK IS THE BESTES TTHING EVA NO ONE FLIES HULKS!!!111 |
|
alittlebirdy
All Hail The Liopleurodon
52
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:23:00 -
[111] - Quote
CCP if it aint broke fix it... lawl
Ya mack is smaller than hulk yet gets the same yeild pretty much.. better tank, HUGE ore hold...
More than a hauler... but come on anyone REALLY shocked anymore they put the UI though... and left it...
At this point I am not shocked at anything.
MMO Noooooo MMAFK |
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:23:00 -
[112] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Suddenly Boom wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:Mackinkaw: 287m sell/263m buy Hulk: 224m sell/170m buy Skiff: 190m sell/164m buy
I thought the intention of the barge buff was to remove one barge being best. That being the Hulk. The Mackinkaw has taken the Hulks old roll as king of the barges, the yield is almost as good as the Hulk, it has better tank, and it has a massive ore hold which is the primary thing that's making it so overpowered.
When I said it before the patch, like here and here was welcome with denial if not utter derision. Glad to see once again I was right and they wrong. And the denial doesn't end here either ;) even though belt statistics paint a clear picture of just how popular the mac is and how unpopular the hulk has become. One could also draw the conclusion that solo mining is far more popular in highsec than fleet mining... nawww that makes sense and doesn't jibe with the whole OMG MACK IS THE BESTES TTHING EVA NO ONE FLIES HULKS!!!111
Some of the belts I screenshotted had over a dozen orcas yet no hulks, so much for orca support groups using hulks. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1831
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:29:00 -
[113] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:Mackinkaw: 287m sell/263m buy Hulk: 224m sell/170m buy Skiff: 190m sell/164m buy
I thought the intention of the barge buff was to remove one barge being best. That being the Hulk. The Mackinkaw has taken the Hulks old roll as king of the barges, the yield is almost as good as the Hulk, it has better tank, and it has a massive ore hold which is the primary thing that's making it so overpowered.
When I said it before the patch, like here and here was welcome with denial if not utter derision. Glad to see once again I was right and they wrong. And the denial doesn't end here either ;) even though the screenshots i posted on the previous page paint a clear picture of just how popular the mac is and how unpopular the hulk has become. I think someone pointed out that market price reflects this too?
Of course, it's people who never set a foot outside of the forums. They live off EFT paper numbers and demand vs supply theories (nobody even mentioned what period of the year we are, when sentencing what factors affect price). Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:35:00 -
[114] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Mackinkaw: 287m sell/263m buy Hulk: 224m sell/170m buy Skiff: 190m sell/164m buy
I thought the intention of the barge buff was to remove one barge being best. That being the Hulk. The Mackinkaw has taken the Hulks old roll as king of the barges, the yield is almost as good as the Hulk, it has better tank, and it has a massive ore hold which is the primary thing that's making it so overpowered. Able to mine on ice roids for over half an hour as a semi afk income, it can't be beaten, it has taken the role of the Hulk as the primary choice of barge. Failing that, the retriever, which is almost as good.
There's one main reason for this. 35k m3 ore hold, not far below that of an ORCA. Does anyone else think that the devs didn't think this through too well? I can't see many miners not taking a Mackinkaw over a Hulk even with Orca support, because 35k m3 ore hold allows them to do other things while your Mackinkaw pulls in what is basically an afk income for at least half an hour at a time.
It's already apparent what effect this is having on the ice market. If the trend continues, soon the only people mining ice will be bots and afk alts.
Someone pointed out below that the Mackinkaw hauls ore better than an actual hauler does now. It takes the primary role of a hauler and does it better. You may aswell have just taken the Iteron MK5/Occator and given it mining lasers and hulk like yield. That's what we have now, a super industrial all in one miner and hauler
The influx of bots is already noticeable, in last 4 days ive seen so many bots where before there were none. They come an go to the exact same spot, they act exactly same every time no matter what you do....
CCP may be trying to mainstream EVE to please the wow player base, but it is gonna blow up in their face. I was reported for (an get this) Race hate, an griefing yesterday for killing miners an blowing up some harvesters. THIS! is the player base CCP are pandering too, it's sad that those of us who have been here for 7 years have to put up with this crap :).
Now, granted I dont give a toss if I am reported, but it highlights the idiots EVE is beginning to attract. The non bots which are few an far between all now ignore you completely, since they now know they are completely immune to anything but a mass battleship gank. I had hoped CCP learned from the gold ship debacle, but I guess not. Apparently miners are above the rule set the rest of us have to follow ??, I know last night in scope I saw an hysterical conversation that was around the idea of "Demanding CCP make mission runners immune to ganks" because it isnt fair. LOL |
ashley Eoner
38
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:37:00 -
[115] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:ashley Eoner wrote:Suddenly Boom wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:Mackinkaw: 287m sell/263m buy Hulk: 224m sell/170m buy Skiff: 190m sell/164m buy
I thought the intention of the barge buff was to remove one barge being best. That being the Hulk. The Mackinkaw has taken the Hulks old roll as king of the barges, the yield is almost as good as the Hulk, it has better tank, and it has a massive ore hold which is the primary thing that's making it so overpowered.
When I said it before the patch, like here and here was welcome with denial if not utter derision. Glad to see once again I was right and they wrong. And the denial doesn't end here either ;) even though belt statistics paint a clear picture of just how popular the mac is and how unpopular the hulk has become. One could also draw the conclusion that solo mining is far more popular in highsec than fleet mining... nawww that makes sense and doesn't jibe with the whole OMG MACK IS THE BESTES TTHING EVA NO ONE FLIES HULKS!!!111 Some of the belts I screenshotted had over a dozen orcas yet no hulks, so much for orca support groups using hulks. So fleet now means an orca and a mack or two.. Your definition of "fleet" is quite quaint...
When I'm mining with my two macks and an orca I don't consider that a fleet either. I'm just solo mining... |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:39:00 -
[116] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:New Mack is awesome, great change for the downtrodden hisec miners, Goon stranglehold on Eve economy is loosening There never was a stranglehold on economy. Jihad/hulkageddon only effected the lazy an the stupid. It is impossible to die in HS if you pay attention. |
ashley Eoner
38
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:43:00 -
[117] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:[quote=Peter Raptor]it is impossible to die in HS if you pay attention. That is not even remotely true.. |
Amber Coldheart
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:45:00 -
[118] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:It is impossible to die in HS if you pay attention. hehe, now that is bull :)
If someone wants to kill you, you'll get killed.. high sec or not.. and no matter what you are flying.. its just a matter of how much the ganker is potentially willing to spend. |
Quuu
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:45:00 -
[119] - Quote
Great job ccp on the mining barges now the price of ore can tank once again because in stead of actally fixing a problem you now have given the bots a leg up. At least the price of ships will drop to bad there wont be any real players left to buy em lol. |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:46:00 -
[120] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Melodee619 wrote:[quote=Peter Raptor]it is impossible to die in HS if you pay attention. That is not even remotely true..
Last time I died to a gank was bvack in Jihad, when I was foolish enough to mine in Genisis which was goons favorite hunting ground. I treat HS just the same as I would 4CB7x or 9UY etc etc..... I use SS, an I have insta warps off every station I use. Never once been ganked since that day. When I mission I Dscan every 15 seconds on dot.
Edit, an I never EVER mission in high population systems. It is most definitely true |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1831
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:52:00 -
[121] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:New Mack is awesome, great change for the downtrodden hisec miners, Goon stranglehold on Eve economy is loosening There never was a stranglehold on economy. Jihad/hulkageddon only effected the lazy an the stupid. It is impossible to die in HS if you pay attention.
This happened before perma Hulkageddon. While you paid attention and lost 1 ship, many never lost a ship and mined so AFK that they could go walk the dog, eat a snack and much more. When they lost that ship they would notice they lost 1 day worth of mining over 1 year of no gank and they carried on.
Not sure it was worth to play like a spasm low sec perma danger miner, it's not like your efforts earned 1 penny more than the lazy AFKers.
I still keep my ancient, large rigs Hulks parked in a station as souvenir. They had some massive AFK mining done on them Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9027
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:56:00 -
[122] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:Some of the belts I screenshotted had over a dozen orcas yet no hulks, so much for orca support groups using hulks. That's largely because they're not fleet mining, but rather solo-mining with boosts. Fleet-mining requires effort, co-ordination and being at the keyboard.
James 315 wrote:Deise Koraka wrote:All it did was make the Mack the choice of high sec solo miners. Hulks still mine more, they just need the support of a corp.
These changes made sure every type of miner had a ship that catered to their mining style of choice, that's all. Not necessarily. You look around the highsec belts and see the extinction of the hulk in favor of the mackinaw. Check the market and note the price changes, too. GǪwhich doesn't particularly disprove what he said. Each type of miner has a ship for his mining style. The prevalent style is solo mining, to absolutely no-one's surprise. The Hulk still caters to the fleet mining and does a fine job of it, but you won't see that by looking at the average miner. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1263
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:57:00 -
[123] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:While you paid attention and lost 1 ship, many never lost a ship and mined so AFK that they could go walk the dog, eat a snack and much more. When they lost that ship they would notice they lost 1 day worth of mining over 1 year of no gank and they carried on. Not sure it was worth to play like a spasm low sec perma danger miner, it's not like your efforts earned 1 penny more than the lazy AFKers. I still keep my ancient, large rigs Hulks parked in a station as souvenir. They had some massive AFK mining done on them Heh heh. The truth comes out.
One wonders if the cost of T2 cystals is comparable to the loss of the hulk, over its lifetime. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
339
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:57:00 -
[124] - Quote
Why are so many of you shouting every time you say "ore," "ice," and "Orca?"
Or have those been officially backronym'ed whilst I was...errrm...on forum-holiday? There is a fine and proper artistry to wielding verbal scalpels, such that the crap-poster you've slashed doesn't even know they've been cut. But verbal bludgeons -- Those are just fun. |
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
1725
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 00:59:00 -
[125] - Quote
Oh look, I guess my crystal ball was right....https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1703059#post1703059 price of Mack's are going up and they truly are now the King of mining. |
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 01:03:00 -
[126] - Quote
I'm going to laugh my ass off when ice has crashed to an all new low, and all the miners are bitching on the forum. Bring back hulkageddon And even I can see that the mac is the new top barge on the block. |
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
1725
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 01:06:00 -
[127] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:I'm going to laugh my ass off when ice has crashed to an all new low, and all the miners are bitching on the forum. Bring back hulkageddon And even I can see that the mac is the new top barge on the block.
Price of ores all around have all ready started to take a nose dive. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1832
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 01:09:00 -
[128] - Quote
Ginseng Jita wrote:Suddenly Boom wrote:I'm going to laugh my ass off when ice has crashed to an all new low, and all the miners are bitching on the forum. Bring back hulkageddon And even I can see that the mac is the new top barge on the block. Price of ores all around have all ready started to take a nose dive.
Which is good, because price double bottoms need nose dives. And then... Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
209
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 02:46:00 -
[129] - Quote
Tippia has some very good points in regard to indy haulers.
However, for me, the only reason I use a hauler is to move minerals. I can fly a freighter once I have the money to not worry about losing one, so it's not really a big deal. The standard haulers on the other hand, I can't help but feel like they could use an increase in cargo capacity.
Not because of the Mack though, but because I never thought that a few thousand m3 was ever very much, it sure isn't a worthwhile amount of minerals.
But, why in the world would you use a hauler to move ore? Isn't 3000m3 of minerals more than 35k m3 of ore? Anyone that would use a Mack to move 35k worth of ore has to be somewhat ********.
I wouldn't mind seeing haulers get a boost closer to 10k m3 of cargo though. |
ashley Eoner
38
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 03:12:00 -
[130] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:ashley Eoner wrote:Melodee619 wrote:[quote=Peter Raptor]it is impossible to die in HS if you pay attention. That is not even remotely true.. Last time I died to a gank was bvack in Jihad, when I was foolish enough to mine in Genisis which was goons favorite hunting ground. I treat HS just the same as I would 4CB7x or 9UY etc etc..... I use SS, an I have insta warps off every station I use. Never once been ganked since that day. When I mission I Dscan every 15 seconds on dot. Edit, an I never EVER mission in high population systems. It is most definitely true Your personal experience doesn't matter. You said it was impossible to die to a gank in HS which is completely and utterly wrong. IF someone wants you dead they'll bring enough damage to alpha you if nothing else.
Now is it very likely that you'll be killed in HS if you take precautions? No it's very unlikely you'll die.. It's also very unlikely you'll die in nullsec if you take the proper precautions..
Personally I've always though that regular indies need a bit of a cargo boost or there needs to be some sort of a middle ground hauler between a cheap disposable iteron IV and an Obelisk. |
|
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
638
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 04:52:00 -
[131] - Quote
fleet-hulk with orca support <-mines the most solo- mackinaw <- best solo because of ore hold size want to tank? skiff.<- tanks pretty well
t1 versions are exactly the same way but about 10% worse in every way. except much weaker tanks anyone still complaining can contract their stuff to me and I will compile their complaints. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
332
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 05:16:00 -
[132] - Quote
I just want it to remind you that every hauler that I have holds more than the Mack. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
pussnheels
535
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 06:32:00 -
[133] - Quote
i hate to burst you bubble OP but the mack is not the king of the exhumers the hulk still is , that is with maxed out mining skills and maxed orca support, even in icemining the mack is indeed king if you are a casual miner and want to mine solo / afk for a while
Yes granted the mack has a better tank , but that is giving alot of miners a false sense of security Even now a few days after the patch i see alot of macks from players who are fitted for max yield in favour of the antigank tank , sure it might help defend against the casual gank attempt but against a determined gank attack it is just as vulnerable as before
It will only be a few weeks before gankers develop new tactics , probably even faster, and all the whinning will continue when that happens This time it will not be the gankers it will be the miners who bring this on themselves ,
CCP gave you good tankable exhumers , now use it FFS I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1264
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 07:25:00 -
[134] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:Yes granted the mack has a better tank , but that is giving alot of miners a false sense of security Even now a few days after the patch i see alot of macks from players who are fitted for max yield in favour of the antigank tank , sure it might help defend against the casual gank attempt but against a determined gank attack it is just as vulnerable as before
It will only be a few weeks before gankers develop new tactics , probably even faster, and all the whinning will continue when that happens This time it will not be the gankers it will be the miners who bring this on themselves ,
CCP gave you good tankable exhumers , now use it FFS No.
They'll hope to get another buff by screaming about gankers as they get ganked. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Xercodo
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1327
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 07:36:00 -
[135] - Quote
I think everyone is forgetting that the bonuses that MLUs provide are applied to each laser, thus compounding the benefit of fitting one to a ship such as a covetor or a hulk The Drake is a Lie |
pussnheels
535
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 08:37:00 -
[136] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:[No.
They'll hope to get another buff by screaming about gankers as they get ganked. most likely but i am sure this is all they will get for a long time , it just amazes me that after all these months alarge number of them still go out untanked and afk mine , if they are unwilling to learn and adapt they deserve to be ganked , and that is final I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
444
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 08:38:00 -
[137] - Quote
yeah, because nobody pointed this out when it was on sisi, right? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4309
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 08:47:00 -
[138] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:most likely but i am sure this is all they will get for a long time , it just amazes me that after all these months alarge number of them still go out untanked and afk mine , if they are unwilling to learn and adapt they deserve to be ganked , and that is final
The consensus will change in time to "Well the mining barge buff wasn't enough, we're still losing our untanked hulks and mackinaws to destroyers!!!" "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Lexmana
690
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 08:53:00 -
[139] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Which is good, because price double bottoms need nose dives. lol TA.
... it goes up or down or stays the same. |
pussnheels
535
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 09:01:00 -
[140] - Quote
Andski wrote:pussnheels wrote:most likely but i am sure this is all they will get for a long time , it just amazes me that after all these months alarge number of them still go out untanked and afk mine , if they are unwilling to learn and adapt they deserve to be ganked , and that is final The consensus will change in time to "Well the mining barge buff wasn't enough, we're still losing our untanked hulks and mackinaws to destroyers!!!"
not often i find myself in agreement with a goon , but you are right sad but true , even tho the loss in yield isn't even that much if you go for a tank , sometimes i just don't understand them anymore, you fight a war of words for them and what they do ...bah , maybe there is a carreer as a ganker waiting for me I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
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Arcticblue2
Nordic Freelancers inc
54
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 09:56:00 -
[141] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Best thing is that you dock your full mack in the orca that is also full to carry even more ore
Now that is not possible is it ?, I can't dock my covetor in my Orca with load, I can only dock after I dump the orebay.... that was like that also before the patch. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9035
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 10:22:00 -
[142] - Quote
Xercodo wrote:I think everyone is forgetting that the bonuses that MLUs provide are applied to each laser, thus compounding the benefit of fitting one to a ship such as a covetor or a hulk. WhyGǪ no, how would anyone forget that? It's a yield percent bonus. You multiply old yield with bonus to get new yield. How can anyone possibly mess that up (especially now that all barges have the same effective amount of lasers before bonuses). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1833
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 10:26:00 -
[143] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Which is good, because price double bottoms need nose dives. lol TA. ... it goes up or down or stays the same.
Well, after a confirmed double bottom it's very very hard for price to go down or stay the same. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 11:30:00 -
[144] - Quote
Dont know what they did, but they really bolloxed mining now. I went through 12 ICE belts tonight an every one of them had 5-15 Macks+ Orca's. I finally find a Hulk in doxi, an I unloaded on it... Did FA to it. He took my Alpha an just ignored me. lol
One hulk in over 30 miners, yer they provided lots of diversity..... |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
565
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 11:35:00 -
[145] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:Dont know what they did, but they really bolloxed mining now. I went through 12 ICE belts tonight an every one of them had 5-15 Macks+ Orca's. I finally find a Hulk in doxi, an I unloaded on it... Did FA to it. He took my Alpha an just ignored me. lol
One hulk in over 30 miners, yer they provided lots of diversity.....
Remember, people are idiots who don't like change. and don't pay attention. So 'Mack for ice mining. That's how I did it, that's how dad did it' and so on.
They'd do better in hulks, but they're not paying attention.
If more miners did, Scordite wouldn't be worth what it is. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
MortisLegati
Caldari War Materiel
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 11:38:00 -
[146] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Honestly I think they should just dump the Cargohold down to 2000 for Crystals and increase the ORE Bay to around 200k.
Then introduce light freighters if people miss their improvised hauler so much.
THIS THIS SO MUCH |
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 12:22:00 -
[147] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:Dont know what they did, but they really bolloxed mining now. I went through 12 ICE belts tonight an every one of them had 5-15 Macks+ Orca's. I finally find a Hulk in doxi, an I unloaded on it... Did FA to it. He took my Alpha an just ignored me. lol
One hulk in over 30 miners, yer they provided lots of diversity.....
Checking the weekend kill mail it seems that specialized gank setups like, Illest/Iller insurectionist for example, can do OK "mack ganking" with two destros. For everyone else its probaply 3 destroyers for a save mack kill
Iller/illest killmail
......
Slaughterhouse
Xtar
Wena Corra
Soprano
Steve Ronuken wrote:
They'd do better in hulks, but they're not paying attention.
Ice miner's exhumers are more vulnerable to ganks then roid miners because they probaply use the rigs slots for harvester modifications. Asteroid miner can fit the rig slots with extender/hardener modifications because cargo modifications are near to useless after the patch |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
143
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 12:26:00 -
[148] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:Dont know what they did, but they really bolloxed mining now. I went through 12 ICE belts tonight an every one of them had 5-15 Macks+ Orca's. I finally find a Hulk in doxi, an I unloaded on it... Did FA to it. He took my Alpha an just ignored me. lol
One hulk in over 30 miners, yer they provided lots of diversity.....
Better write an complain
Dear CCP, its terrible, ppl are no longer flying paper thin hulls that don't shoot back. Please force them back into such ships so I can blow them up easily for no risk . Its completely ruined mining ....... sulk
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
579
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 12:33:00 -
[149] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:
The influx of bots is already noticeable, in last 4 days ive seen so many bots where before there were none. They come an go to the exact same spot, they act exactly same every time no matter what you do....
You realize they could just be - ignoring you, right? Ahh no, vanity.
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
516
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 12:36:00 -
[150] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:Melodee619 wrote:
The influx of bots is already noticeable, in last 4 days ive seen so many bots where before there were none. They come an go to the exact same spot, they act exactly same every time no matter what you do....
You realize they could just be - ignoring you, right? Ahh no, vanity. Yeah any bets on cloaked ships near by or just afk pilots in Macks Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
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Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 12:50:00 -
[151] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Melodee619 wrote:Dont know what they did, but they really bolloxed mining now. I went through 12 ICE belts tonight an every one of them had 5-15 Macks+ Orca's. I finally find a Hulk in doxi, an I unloaded on it... Did FA to it. He took my Alpha an just ignored me. lol
One hulk in over 30 miners, yer they provided lots of diversity..... Remember, people are idiots who don't like change. and don't pay attention. So 'Mack for ice mining. That's how I did it, that's how dad did it' and so on. They'd do better in hulks, but they're not paying attention. If more miners did, Scordite wouldn't be worth what it is.
I'm hearing every excuse in the book to try to stop the inevitable Mackinkaw nerf from taking place. First they say any orca pilot will use hulks, this has been proven false, then they say that that all the hulks hang out in nullsec fleet ops, this has not been proven, and even if it was true, fleet ops are a niche compared to the majority of mining that takes place.
So now the next claim is that people just forgot to switch their ships since the patch, which is another assumption with no facts behind it. The price of mackinkaws and hulks in jita paints a clear picture, mackinkaw is the new top barge of choice for the majority of miners and that's really no great shock considering how imbalanced it is presently.
There was more hulks in the belts and ice fields prepatch, ever since mackinkaws got made into the best overall barge the majority has switched to mackinkaws. So people have adapted to the patch, they've dumped their hulks and switched to mackinkaws. Jita prices reflect this. |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 12:55:00 -
[152] - Quote
LOL I love how miners come to forums an cry to CCP that they are above the rule set an should be hand held. CCP listen an give them that immunity they feel they deserve. Amusing. As for the trolls "trying" to score points... irrelevant. facts are facts, CCP always listen to the ones who complain the most. EG Miners/botters
This is a fact
Jihad they screamed an ranted that waaa we deserve to have our hands held. CCP listened an bang! Concord boost was given.
Forward 3 years, Miners cry an rave that they alone deserve to be protected, it isn't fair they shouldn't have to use their brain cel an actually think to protect themselves.... CCP listens....
After all god forbid, a miner had to NOT mine in high pop systems After all god forbid a miner actually mined in mission belts After all god forbid a Miner actually used Dscan After all god forbid a miner actually talked to others to find out who gankers are an -10 them, so they could see em coming.
After all....oh **** it lol Basically miners dont want self responsibility, they "demand" CCP protect em... :)
100$ says Mission runners will be next, they will work out that miners got what they demanded, an they will say "it isnt fair, we want to be free to mission anywhere we choose in 10b fittings without any risk... lol
As for my little self, I enjoy going after Viators an haulers in general. dont give a damn about loot, kills for tears is payment enough. |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 12:58:00 -
[153] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Melodee619 wrote:Dont know what they did, but they really bolloxed mining now. I went through 12 ICE belts tonight an every one of them had 5-15 Macks+ Orca's. I finally find a Hulk in doxi, an I unloaded on it... Did FA to it. He took my Alpha an just ignored me. lol
One hulk in over 30 miners, yer they provided lots of diversity..... Remember, people are idiots who don't like change. and don't pay attention. So 'Mack for ice mining. That's how I did it, that's how dad did it' and so on. They'd do better in hulks, but they're not paying attention. If more miners did, Scordite wouldn't be worth what it is. I'm hearing every excuse in the book to try to stop the inevitable Mackinkaw nerf from taking place. First they say any orca pilot will use hulks, this has been proven false, then they say that that all the hulks hang out in nullsec fleet ops, this has not been proven, and even if it was true, fleet ops are a niche compared to the majority of mining that takes place. So now the next claim is that people just forgot to switch their ships since the patch, which is another assumption with no facts behind it. The price of mackinkaws and hulks in jita paints a clear picture, mackinkaw is the new top barge of choice for the majority of miners and that's really no great shock considering how imbalanced it is presently. There was more hulks in the belts and ice fields prepatch, ever since mackinkaws got made into the best overall barge the majority has switched to mackinkaws. So people have adapted to the patch, they've dumped their hulks and switched to mackinkaws. Jita prices reflect this.
I actually hit like on your post, because its quite well written an true for most part. 1 hulk in 3 hours hunting tonight, v 30+ Macks....that alone shows your right. CCP just traded one ship for another, an gave it immunity to death so botters an afkers can go anywhere they want.
edit CCP wont nerf Macks, not after they came out an explained how great their patch was, an how its opened up mining.... when in reality they have made it 100x easier for botters an afkers. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
516
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 13:04:00 -
[154] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:LOL I love how miners come to forums an cry to CCP that they are above the rule set an should be hand held. CCP listen an give them that immunity they feel they deserve. Amusing. As for the trolls "trying" to score points... irrelevant. facts are facts, CCP always listen to the ones who complain the most. EG Miners/botters
This is a fact
Jihad they screamed an ranted that waaa we deserve to have our hands held. CCP listened an bang! Concord boost was given.
Forward 3 years, Miners cry an rave that they alone deserve to be protected, it isn't fair they shouldn't have to use their brain cel an actually think to protect themselves.... CCP listens....
After all god forbid, a miner had to NOT mine in high pop systems After all god forbid a miner actually mined in mission belts After all god forbid a Miner actually used Dscan After all god forbid a miner actually talked to others to find out who gankers are an -10 them, so they could see em coming.
After all....oh **** it lol Basically miners dont want self responsibility, they "demand" CCP protect em... :)
100$ says Mission runners will be next, they will work out that miners got what they demanded, an they will say "it isnt fair, we want to be free to mission anywhere we choose in 10b fittings without any risk... lol
As for my little self, I enjoy going after Viators an haulers in general. dont give a damn about loot, kills for tears is payment enough. I would have been more inclined to say subs dropped CCP put in a Concord fix, subs dropped again so CCP put in these awesome barges.
It is CCP's wallet that needs protecting not the miners. Especially as CCP's money mostly comes from Hi-sec miners and mission runners and I will bet the people shelling out real cash for Plex's comes from the same. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 13:06:00 -
[155] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Melodee619 wrote:Dont know what they did, but they really bolloxed mining now. I went through 12 ICE belts tonight an every one of them had 5-15 Macks+ Orca's. I finally find a Hulk in doxi, an I unloaded on it... Did FA to it. He took my Alpha an just ignored me. lol
One hulk in over 30 miners, yer they provided lots of diversity..... Remember, people are idiots who don't like change. and don't pay attention. So 'Mack for ice mining. That's how I did it, that's how dad did it' and so on. They'd do better in hulks, but they're not paying attention. If more miners did, Scordite wouldn't be worth what it is. I'm hearing every excuse in the book to try to stop the inevitable Mackinkaw nerf from taking place. First they say any orca pilot will use hulks, this has been proven false, then they say that that all the hulks hang out in nullsec fleet ops, this has not been proven, and even if it was true, fleet ops are a niche compared to the majority of mining that takes place. So now the next claim is that people just forgot to switch their ships since the patch, which is another assumption with no facts behind it. The price of mackinkaws and hulks in jita paints a clear picture, mackinkaw is the new top barge of choice for the majority of miners and that's really no great shock considering how imbalanced it is presently. There was more hulks in the belts and ice fields prepatch, ever since mackinkaws got made into the best overall barge the majority has switched to mackinkaws. So people have adapted to the patch, they've dumped their hulks and switched to mackinkaws. Jita prices reflect this. I actually hit like on your post, because its quite well written an true for most part. 1 hulk in 3 hours hunting tonight, v 30+ Macks....that alone shows your right. CCP just traded one ship for another, an gave it immunity to death so botters an afkers can go anywhere they want. edit CCP wont nerf Macks, not after they came out an explained how great their patch was, an how its opened up mining.... when in reality they have made it 100x easier for botters an afkers.
All barges needed was a HP buff, but the devs went too far. Giving one barge a 35k m3 cargo hold has turned mining into an afk joke to be done by alts. The ice market is crashing, and the belts are jam packed with afk mackinkaw miners, this is the first signs of the problem. How could they not have seen this coming? The next set of whining will start by miners when ice mining yield drops to a few mill per hour.
Barges needed a HP buff, fair enough, but why all this extra too? Did someone not stop and say "er maybe it's not such a good idea to give a mining ship a cargo bay that will allow miners to AFK mine for up to an hour at a time?".
The moment they gave a single ship a 35k m3 ore hold and a yield that is just 9% behind the highest yield barge, it was obviously going to become the new barge of choice for most miners. |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 13:19:00 -
[156] - Quote
CCP always over react, Jihad showed that. Goons have done alot for eve, an Jihad itself made HS "fun".... was sad when CCP over reacted. |
Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 13:22:00 -
[157] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:CCP always over react, Jihad showed that. Goons have done alot for eve, an Jihad itself made HS "fun".... was sad when CCP over reacted.
I agree that they over reacted, the moment they released the first changes on Sisi the were insane, they had to nerf them a few times on Sisi. It's really hard to understand their line of thinking with the mackinkaws ridiculous ore hold size, how could they not see that they were creating an even bigger problem? |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
519
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 13:26:00 -
[158] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Melodee619 wrote:CCP always over react, Jihad showed that. Goons have done alot for eve, an Jihad itself made HS "fun".... was sad when CCP over reacted. I agree that they over reacted, the moment they released the first changes on Sisi the were insane, they had to nerf them a few times on Sisi. It's really hard to understand their line of thinking with the mackinkaws ridiculous ore hold size, how could they not see that they were creating an even bigger problem? Isn't this normally where someone chimes in with 'sandbox', the ability to play the game the way you want. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 13:26:00 -
[159] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Melodee619 wrote:CCP always over react, Jihad showed that. Goons have done alot for eve, an Jihad itself made HS "fun".... was sad when CCP over reacted. I agree that they over reacted, the moment they released the first changes on Sisi the were insane, they had to nerf them a few times on Sisi. It's really hard to understand their line of thinking with the mackinkaws ridiculous ore hold size, how could they not see that they were creating an even bigger problem?
yer, I dont think they care too much, these changes smack of "well screw em, lets just do it". |
Randomize All
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 13:35:00 -
[160] - Quote
It's not like CCP to look at something, interpret it completely wrong and then make a change that actually makes the situation worse. Not like CCP at all. What Sreegs doesn't know, we don't tell. |
|
Randomize All
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 13:39:00 -
[161] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:100$ says Mission runners will be next, they will work out that miners got what they demanded, an they will say "it isnt fair, we want to be free to mission anywhere we choose in 10b fittings without any risk... lol.
I presume you never heard of the lofty scam, or any of the other names it went by. Anyway, CCP are more than happy to wipe the bottoms of miners, missioners and Incursion runners. In fact they're not just happy to do it, they kind of insist on it.
But why, why would CCP want fluffy, soft hearted, easy life loving softies populating their game? Is there some sort of demographic difference they are trying to install? Would it have anything to do with selling Gold Ammo in the NeX store? |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
640
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 13:42:00 -
[162] - Quote
What the hell are people complaining about exactly?
brb |
Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 13:43:00 -
[163] - Quote
I believe that the old situation was minerels and ice were a little high, ganking was too easy, and the hulk was considered the best barge.
CUE massive overbalancing
Now we have the opposite situation, minerels are dropping, ice is crashing, likely to never before seen levels, and the mackinkaw is now the best barge. One single change was the cause of this, the massive 35k m3 ore hold. Drop it down to about the level of the skiff at most and all will be well. The mack still has more yield than the skiff, and the skiff has more tank. Overbalancing has caused all the old problems to remain, just in opposite ways. Hulk was the best, now mackinkaw is, and ice was too high, next it'll be too low and the whining will be about that instead. |
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
225
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 13:49:00 -
[164] - Quote
The Mackinaw is currently king because it fits player behavior so well.
A majority of players prefer to solo and semi-afk mine. The Mackinaw combines a healthy mining rate with a big internal ore bay, thus eliminating the risk of can flippers.
Because this combination of attributes is so favorable, it is currently the most demanded miner. I do not feel, however, that it is fundamentally unbalanced.
The hulk is still better when it comes to fleet mining operations. While it does haul more raw ore than a T1 hauler, raw ore is the ONLY thing that massive ore bay can hold. A T1 hauler can put ANYTHING in its cargo hold.
Not to mention, T1 haulers align and warp MUCH faster than the Mackinaw and are *much* cheaper and easier to skill into. So they have replaced the T1 hauler for moving ore around... but in the end T1 haulers still have their place and have by no means been replaced. In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse. |
Ezra Tair
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
85
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 13:50:00 -
[165] - Quote
I am of the opinion that the changes are awesome. Are you really mad because now you don't need a separate character to haul if you use the midsize mining ships? Ship costs have been rising steadily since CCP removed other stream of ore into the game. Don't worry, they won't drop back down as low, but they won't stay as high either.
If your mad because guys can go afk mining ice for an hour? So what? How else do you play a mechanic that requires 5+ mins of staying 10km within a stationary object? The price drops with the influx of supply, and its not attractive, and they do something else. All the while they lower the isk cost of playing with capitals or running POSes.
Really, it sounds like you are mad because more people have a reason and the ability to mine without a real fear of being ganked. That lowers prices and thats bad for your, but good for others. deal bud. |
Tigress Tionese
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 13:57:00 -
[166] - Quote
Ezra Tair wrote:I am of the opinion that the changes are awesome. Are you really mad because now you don't need a separate character to haul if you use the midsize mining ships? Ship costs have been rising steadily since CCP removed other stream of ore into the game. Don't worry, they won't drop back down as low, but they won't stay as high either.
If your mad because guys can go afk mining ice for an hour? So what? How else do you play a mechanic that requires 5+ mins of staying 10km within a stationary object? The price drops with the influx of supply, and its not attractive, and they do something else. All the while they lower the isk cost of playing with capitals or running POSes.
Really, it sounds like you are mad because more people have a reason and the ability to mine without a real fear of being ganked. That lowers prices and thats bad for your, but good for others. deal bud.
I think not. Just a few posts ago I wrote that the barge HP buff was needed. So you're saying that miners needed a 35k m3 ore hold in order to feel safe enough to mine without being ganked? That makes no sense. The ore hold size has nothing to do with ganking, and everything to do with every man and his dog taking up mining as a passive semi afk income, made possible only because of the indy size ore hold.
Perhaps the devs need to add a way to do missions and pvp afk for up to an hour at a time too, since that seems to be the way we're heading. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9045
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 13:59:00 -
[167] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:I'm hearing every excuse in the book to try to stop the inevitable Mackinkaw nerf from taking place. First they say any orca pilot will use hulks, this has been proven false, then they say that that all the hulks hang out in nullsec fleet ops, this has not been proven, and even if it was true, fleet ops are a niche compared to the majority of mining that takes place. EhGǪ what? When has anyone said any of that?
And why does the Mack need to be nerfed? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Noriko Satomi
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
56
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 14:05:00 -
[168] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:uhhh....yeah, I think that's one of the things miners wanted and got. They should probably lower the yield, AFK miners shouldn't make so much ISK. Ice is gonna' crash hard. Won't the price simply recover from the manipulation and stabilize? I thought the price was pushed way up because of all of Goonswarm's ganking campaigns such that they effectively cornered the market for a while. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
150
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 14:12:00 -
[169] - Quote
Tippia wrote:And why does the Mack need to be nerfed?
Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless. |
Tikera Tissant
41
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 14:20:00 -
[170] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:And why does the Mack need to be nerfed? Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless.
Why does it make them useless? Those are totally different roles.
A skiff/procurer are meant to be the BS size tank ships with the lowest mining/ice yielding. The machinaw is meant to be the solo pilot ships.
A machinaw will not survive for very long in a null sec attack for example, but a skiff will with its huge buffer, until someone comes to help. A skiff can have an almost 100K EHP tank without even sacrificing its ice/ore yielding by much, while the mack has to sacrifice everything in order to be even close to half of that EHP.
What is the point of even comparing those ships together?
Its like saying a navy raven makes the hoobkill useless. Sorry, but it makes no sense to me. |
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4313
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 14:22:00 -
[171] - Quote
Tikera Tissant wrote:A machinaw will not survive for very long in a null sec attack for example, but a skiff will with its huge buffer, until someone comes to help.
Plenty of ships will kill you in nullsec long before any help arrives. People kill supercarriers before any help is nearby - a 100k EHP Skiff is no problem. "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Tikera Tissant
41
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 14:24:00 -
[172] - Quote
Andski wrote:Tikera Tissant wrote:A machinaw will not survive for very long in a null sec attack for example, but a skiff will with its huge buffer, until someone comes to help. Plenty of ships will kill you in nullsec long before any help arrives. People kill supercarriers before any help is nearby - a 100k EHP Skiff is no problem.
Of course, but if you happen to be attacked by a random player roaming around, your chances are much better. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9050
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 14:55:00 -
[173] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:And why does the Mack need to be nerfed? Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless. GǪwhich you can link to, hopefully.
And still: why does the Mack need to be nerfed? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1834
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 15:53:00 -
[174] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:And why does the Mack need to be nerfed? Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless. GǪwhich you can link to, hopefully. And still: why does the Mack need to be nerfed?
Because a perfectly fit Mack now takes 3 dessies to die instead of 1 to 2. That's the tears tap for the super casual gankers.
As I said 500 times by now, casual gankers don't blame the miners if CCP raised the miner gank bar. Blame the organized gank corps which super-farmed miners and thus pushed CCP into their moves.
In the end, after each nerf there's an idiot(s) who can't restrain himself from over-abusing something considered legit for a long time. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Deise Koraka
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 21:54:00 -
[175] - Quote
People *****....but honestly someone out there has to keep the market full of trit and pyrite, let the afk miners sit in the belts, so everyone else can do more exciting things!
Things like:
1.sitting on gates in low sec waiting to gank 2.sitting in wormholes waiting for corp members to get on so they can do something 3.sitting in incursion fleets for 1-2 hours waiting for just "1 more logi" 3.sitting in null waiting for fleet to form up 4.sitting on the forums being a big jerk 5.sitting in stations 6.sitting in cq in station watching the low frame rate
Guys...we are a community of sitters.
If the new Mack lets the miners sit in belts, who are we to deny them that?
____________________________ I am a carebear, and I support High Sec ganking and PvP. Just please, don't blow up my Hulk*. <3
*Mackinaw as of Inferno 1.2 |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 23:29:00 -
[176] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:And why does the Mack need to be nerfed? Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless.
It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere. |
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 23:56:00 -
[177] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:And why does the Mack need to be nerfed? Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless. It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere.
You talking about normal belts? Must be, if you checked the ice fields there's 30 macs and 0 hulks PER belt :)
All hail our new afk mining barge overlord! |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 00:11:00 -
[178] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:Melodee619 wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:And why does the Mack need to be nerfed? Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless. It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere. You talking about normal belts? Must be, if you checked the ice fields there's 30 macs and 0 hulks PER belt :) All hail our new afk mining barge overlord!
I know mate thats what I was saying. |
Mercenary MIner
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 03:10:00 -
[179] - Quote
How interesting all this is. Really haven't been paying much attention to the game and this slips in. I'm a 0.0 ice and multibox a large fleet. No I don't bot and lets just say my my computer desk s reminiscence of something at NASA. So when I realized what was going on the first thing I thought about was the statement by CCP from Fanfest that they were going to make it easier for multiboxing miners. Then they said they were going to crack down on botters. REALLY!!?
Come on man first they make an inventory system that makes setting up and maintaining a multiboxed fleet way harder. Now they revamp the fleet ships, giving the Mack a massive cargo hull. Now who does that favor but the botting miner. So in turn for a massive ore bay I give away a fleet of ships that pull in 103 block an hour (with bonuses and implants) for a ship that does 83. Oh wait you say just set up Hulks. I can do that just so I can pull in 92 an hour.
Who cares what ship is best right now. Nothing is on par with the old Mack as far as ice and not everyone mines in empire. Stop being hypocrite CCP either acknowledge you want botters in the game or stop the stealth support. Well not so stealthy at this point.
Now I admit that right now I'm only going on EFT numbers and haven't actually sat in a properly fit and fleeted Hulk. I may be missing something here but man this is the first time I've been pushed to canceling my accounts. |
Abel Merkabah
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
100
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 03:18:00 -
[180] - Quote
Deise Koraka wrote:People *****....but honestly someone out there has to keep the market full of trit and pyrite, let the afk miners sit in the belts, so everyone else can do more exciting things!
Things like:
1.sitting on gates in low sec waiting to gank 2.sitting in wormholes waiting for corp members to get on so they can do something 3.sitting in incursion fleets for 1-2 hours waiting for just "1 more logi" 3.sitting in null waiting for fleet to form up 4.sitting on the forums being a big jerk 5.sitting in stations 6.sitting in cq in station watching the low frame rate
Guys...we are a community of sitters.
If the new Mack lets the miners sit in belts, who are we to deny them that?
Lol love that...pure ossum... but if miners can sit in belts, I want ISK while waiting for gangs to form up or people to jump through gates...
"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vacuuming systems." |
|
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 04:15:00 -
[181] - Quote
Abel Merkabah wrote:Deise Koraka wrote:People *****....but honestly someone out there has to keep the market full of trit and pyrite, let the afk miners sit in the belts, so everyone else can do more exciting things!
Things like:
1.sitting on gates in low sec waiting to gank 2.sitting in wormholes waiting for corp members to get on so they can do something 3.sitting in incursion fleets for 1-2 hours waiting for just "1 more logi" 3.sitting in null waiting for fleet to form up 4.sitting on the forums being a big jerk 5.sitting in stations 6.sitting in cq in station watching the low frame rate
Guys...we are a community of sitters.
If the new Mack lets the miners sit in belts, who are we to deny them that?
Lol love that...pure ossum... but if miners can sit in belts, I want ISK while waiting for gangs to form up or people to jump through gates...
An I want free kills laid on the second I get in game, after all its only fair....(see how ludicrous it is). They support bots an afkers, hand over fist, but they say EVE is about being responsible for your own gameplay... its laughable. At least we gankers are responsible for ourselves, an we dont blame others for our gameplay.
Botters an afkers should try it one day for something new. |
Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 04:59:00 -
[182] - Quote
Feed me cheap oxytopes. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
521
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 05:19:00 -
[183] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:And why does the Mack need to be nerfed? Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless. It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere. Your evidence of botting?
And I can't see CCP changing thing now the server population has grown with the new changes and hell why would they the changes are great. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1835
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 05:39:00 -
[184] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:And why does the Mack need to be nerfed? Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless. It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere.
I have looked at several killboards.
The macks are still mostly untanked (surprise, eh?) since changing a ship does not make years-of-tradition bads less bad at fitting them.
So, it takes about 2 dessies to kill them, 3 in higher sec or with some tank.
Go, and kill those pesky miners if their existence does not make you sleep in the night. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
168
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 06:22:00 -
[185] - Quote
How long does it take to recoop the cost of a Mack and mods through ice mining? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Illest Insurrectionist
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 06:27:00 -
[186] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Melodee619 wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:And why does the Mack need to be nerfed? Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless. It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere. I have looked at several killboards. The macks are still mostly untanked (surprise, eh?) since changing a ship does not make years-of-tradition bads less bad at fitting them. So, it takes about 2 dessies to kill them, 3 in higher sec or with some tank. Go, and kill those pesky miners if their existence does not make you sleep in the night.
I do but they keep coming back :/ |
pussnheels
538
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 06:41:00 -
[187] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Melodee619 wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:And why does the Mack need to be nerfed? Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless. It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere. I have looked at several killboards. The macks are still mostly untanked (surprise, eh?) since changing a ship does not make years-of-tradition bads less bad at fitting them. So, it takes about 2 dessies to kill them, 3 in higher sec or with some tank. Go, and kill those pesky miners if their existence does not make you sleep in the night. exactly , the new stats gave them a false sense of security , CCP gave them a chance to put a better tank on them and what do they do, completely ignore it in favour of just that little bit of extra yield I am all for this patch , i think it was high time those barges/exhumers role needed to be revised , Maybe over time they will eventually learn and adapt ,some of them atleast i hope Darwins evolution in all its glory at work I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9068
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 06:46:00 -
[188] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:It makes all the other ships useless In what way are they useless?
Quote:Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Yes. It tells us that the purpose of the Mack GÇö solo mining GÇö matches the most common way of mining in the part of space you're canvassing.
GǪso what? How does that translate into the Mack needing a nerf?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 06:49:00 -
[189] - Quote
Noriko Satomi wrote:Smohq Anmirorz wrote:uhhh....yeah, I think that's one of the things miners wanted and got. They should probably lower the yield, AFK miners shouldn't make so much ISK. Ice is gonna' crash hard. Won't the price simply recover from the manipulation and stabilize? I thought the price was pushed way up because of all of Goonswarm's ganking campaigns such that they effectively cornered the market for a while.
So you don't see a huge over-supply coming from people mining ice for an hour at a time without having to be there? The convenience factor of macks has gone so far up that orcas in a two-man team aren't needed for extra easy mining anymore, they can use two barges. No re-targeting, no moving stuff out of your cargo every few minutes. Even when the price crashes, well, it's still the only way to sit in your ship afk mining for an hour at a time. People will do it anyway and sell at the crashed prices. |
Via Shivon
Kriegsmarinewerft Goonswarm Federation
54
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 08:01:00 -
[190] - Quote
I just wanne say thanks CCP to give the botting **** a great ship. |
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Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
168
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 08:12:00 -
[191] - Quote
Via Shivon wrote:I just wanne say thanks CCP to give the botting **** a great ship.
What happened, you guys get more Titans? Congrats? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Spectre80
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
77
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 08:31:00 -
[192] - Quote
lots of crying and foot stomping from people who were so leet ganking unarmed untanked targets everyday. ive smartbombed and suicideganked few guys on my day but come on. man up and go shoot something that shoots back. wardec people, go lowsec or 0.0. why do you must insist being in empire and just try to ruin someones day? is your life really so miserable? |
Kingston Black
Hostile. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
35
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 08:32:00 -
[193] - Quote
dear god, ccp finally give mining some love and people start whining about it? The whole botting problem is not going to be fixed by the ore hold of a mining barge its going to be fixed by changing mining into a minigame not the mindnumbing click a button watch the pretty lights show it is currently. Im a lowsec pirate but even i want ccp to do an industry expansion before they do a lowsec one... |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 10:43:00 -
[194] - Quote
On a related note, have you ever been in doubt that solo-semi-afk mining barges designed for basic belt-to-station mining will see most sales? Almost all miners I know are doing that solo or (usually) in a group of alts. |
WrATH2Zero
Mine-Kill
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 11:12:00 -
[195] - Quote
Tikera Tissant wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:
For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore.
The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. If you really want a dedicated hauler anyway, just use another Mackinkaw, it can mine between hauling sessions. If you're going to do that though you may aswell just use each miner as its own hauler anyway. God, this is so dumb.
You are dead wrong. When mining in a team you are mining in hulks. They dump their load to the orca, and the orca either takes the ore to the station, or you are using another orca to transfer the ore to the station. There is absolutely no reason to use mackinaws in a team ops. Even when not tanked they will not do as much m3/hour as a tanked hulk with a booster orca. No need to go and dump your load means lots more cycles dedicated to mining than flying to station, which makes the ops a hell of alot more efficient. Using macks in a team is very in-efficient. For a solo miner, its retriever->mackinaw. For a group miner its retriever->hulk. For a null miner its mainly a skiff.
Spot on ^
Barges were dreadful before 1.2, cruiser could get close to them in mining and now solo barges like Retriever and Mac cannot be touched by anyone who thinks they can mine in a cruiser and upwards.
I think CCP should nerf the strip miners, especially the T2 version because to a lot of people they don't seem to be worth it and the initial payout and training for them with crystals. |
Radius Prime
Aliastra Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 11:32:00 -
[196] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Tippia wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold. You need to check your bonuses, unless you run the Mack with three MLU/IHUs, in which case it's not noticeably stronger than the Hulk. The size of the Hulk's ore hold is utterly irrelevant since you're not going to use it other than as a transition buffer. For all intents and purposes, it can be considered infinite. Quote:The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though. GǪexcept that doing so means you lose the boosts for long periods of time, which reduces your yield. So instead you use the Orca as a huge cargo can GÇö another transfer buffer from which the actual haulers pull ore and take back to base. So no, using the Orca as a belt shuttle is hideously inefficient unless you actually run with two of themGǪ and that's just slow and cumbersome compared to using an actual industrial hauler. I don't need to check anything, a mack can have near 20k EHP with 3 upgrades, which is enough. The ore hold size is very relevant, with the hulk you need to do a lot more work, it's far more intensive, with the mack you can have a very laid back, semi afk or even totally afk mining session, you could even go make dinner and eat it, come back and you're still not full on ore, that is an undeniably huge bonus. This applies to ice mining obviously.
You do not get the concept of team mining do you? After 2 hours the hulk team will still have mined more. Thus more profit.. One would still use a dedicated hauler alt/player to fly back and forward from orca to base non stop. Mack is handy for solo mining nothing more.. The higher market price atm doesn't proof anything as well. Yes the mack has a spike but it will rise in price that much faster because fewer numbers are being produced. Same way the fast hulk drop can be derived from larger production cause it used to be alone as king of miners. Now solo miners switch to mack.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1838
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 12:03:00 -
[197] - Quote
Via Shivon wrote:I just wanne say thanks CCP to give the botting **** a great ship.
Macks are the anti-bot excellence incarnate in the undisputed bot kingdom: ice mining.
Why bot and risk a ban when you can just stick the ship on a ice roid and it does it all by itself? From 10-ish minutes a load (with Orca) before patch to today's 20-30 minutes = no need to bot it, you can really do whatever in RL.
Roids are an harder thing to avoid botting but if one accepts going to 0.7 sec and below they can still be done for 10 mins each (I tested it). Plus, 1 less laser to babysit. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Radius Prime
Aliastra Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 12:08:00 -
[198] - Quote
Illest Insurrectionist wrote:
Omg , who in their right mind would afk mine with deadspace mods -.-
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Gunsaro
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
12
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 13:09:00 -
[199] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:Nobody has pointed out that mackinkaw now holds more ore than an industrial hauler? How has nobody seen the fail logic in this? It takes the role of miner and hauler and does both better. The only thing industrials do is haul, that is their primary role and is what they do best. Wait, it was, until the patch? TROLOLOL
They've turned it into a miner and industrial all in one, the best of both worlds, a true solo pwnmobile.
A mining ship being referred to as a pwnmobile..... that has to be a first.
And I know it's a difficult concept for asteroid lickers to grasp, but industrial ships are also used for alot of other things besides picking up your jet cans and hauling space rocks around. The changes to mining ships certainly didnt "make them obsolete". |
Suvari Khashour
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 13:20:00 -
[200] - Quote
Radius Prime wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:Tippia wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold. You need to check your bonuses, unless you run the Mack with three MLU/IHUs, in which case it's not noticeably stronger than the Hulk. The size of the Hulk's ore hold is utterly irrelevant since you're not going to use it other than as a transition buffer. For all intents and purposes, it can be considered infinite. Quote:The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though. GǪexcept that doing so means you lose the boosts for long periods of time, which reduces your yield. So instead you use the Orca as a huge cargo can GÇö another transfer buffer from which the actual haulers pull ore and take back to base. So no, using the Orca as a belt shuttle is hideously inefficient unless you actually run with two of themGǪ and that's just slow and cumbersome compared to using an actual industrial hauler. I don't need to check anything, a mack can have near 20k EHP with 3 upgrades, which is enough. The ore hold size is very relevant, with the hulk you need to do a lot more work, it's far more intensive, with the mack you can have a very laid back, semi afk or even totally afk mining session, you could even go make dinner and eat it, come back and you're still not full on ore, that is an undeniably huge bonus. This applies to ice mining obviously. You do not get the concept of team mining do you? After 2 hours the hulk team will still have mined more. Thus more profit.. One would still use a dedicated hauler alt/player to fly back and forward from orca to base non stop. Mack is handy for solo mining nothing more.. The higher market price atm doesn't proof anything as well. Yes the mack has a spike but it will rise in price that much faster because fewer numbers are being produced. Same way the fast hulk drop can be derived from larger production cause it used to be alone as king of miners. Now solo miners switch to mack. The hulk still has a 25 percent yield advantage over the Mackinaw, which means the Hulk /Covetor is better for fleet mining than any other ship - even a Covetor has a 15 percent higher yield than a mackinaw.. and it costs a hell of a lot less.. if the demand for Mackinaws is up, its just that there is a lot of demand for solo mining ships, which might be because of something like, i don't know.. hulkageddon maybe.. and the whines are really from the solo gankers who suddenly, have a huge problem in that they can't solo gank quite so easily now, at least, not without a really huge isk loss on their KM, boohoo for them, no more easy target to pad their win/loss ratio's out with. meanwhile, out in the belts somewhere, i'll be mining in a retriever, it only has 15k ehp... no problem eh come get some |
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MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
83
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 13:57:00 -
[201] - Quote
Pre-patch: "Waaaaa my barge is made of paper and dies if you look at it the wrong way" Post-patch: "Waaaa those mean Mackinaws hurt my hauler's feelings"
In other news, -ú50 notes don't fit in my wallet very well
Think you might as well scrap the haulers in belts? Feel free. If you're really so bothered about min-maxing though you'll notice that if you just haul with your Mack then you lose out on mining time while shuttling between station and belt. "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 14:12:00 -
[202] - Quote
People who are complaining that Macks make haulers obsolete aren't paying attention.
The ore hold on a Mack only holds ore. Nothing else. Not even refined minerals (I think). So your haulers are still the only way to carry other stuff. The big Mack ore hold does have a major advantage over a belt-hauler: it frees up that person to do more productive stuff (like run a mining laser in another barge). I still find that it's sometimes more productive to jetcan mine when you have an Orca, but in that scenario I'd be using a Hulk and not a Mack anyway.
The Mack is a great hisec mining boat, but it doesn't magically make mining a lot more profitable. Mining is still a sucker's game if you're doing it solo. You can make more ISK/hr doing almost anything else in the game. |
James 315
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2349
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 14:32:00 -
[203] - Quote
Not necessarily more profitable, though less ganking and more AFK mining will probably lead to bigger yields.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ MinerBumping.com -½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½The daily saga of one man's quest to bring civilization to highsec by bumping miners out of range. |
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
210
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 14:32:00 -
[204] - Quote
OP: Your usage analysis only means that the Mackinaw's role (a solo miner) is VERY well received and that the solo role is the most popular role. Also, all the miners you got a screen snap of are solo miners. This does not mean that the changes were bad. It means that they worked and made a lot of miners so happy that they bought and/or rebuilt Mackinaws.
These changes were excellent. In fact, one of the best changes I have ever seen.
In my main's corp, we now use ALL T2 ORE hulls. We did not throw away our Hulks. Mack : bread and butter miner Hulk : high yield fleet ops with Orca support Skiff : L4 Recon 3 - the ONLY ship I know of that has decent speed and can tank the poison clouds then harvest all that juicy ore on the far side. This is the ONLY way to make L4 Recon 3 actually pay. If any corp member gets L4 Recon 3, we fleet up and run it with three Skiffs. And, the 50m3 drone bay allows for full flights of miner IIs and light armor reppers. One ship can carry a flight of combat drones for ratz.
We are still working out uses for the Skiff. One issue is that we can't cloak the Skiff easily with it's single high slot, so we have to be careful about scouting them in and out of low sec, or at least work out a travel protocol.
This set of ORE changes has nearly completely altered and improved our mining ops as a corp. We are taking full advantage of the changes. I suggest everyone do the same, because if you do, you'll see there is nothing to complain about. |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
248
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 14:44:00 -
[205] - Quote
I'd like to see dedicated ore hauling indy ships with huge amounts of ore hold but small real cargo. This could something interesting for Tech3 indies... New inventory: Getting better since version 1.2, but what about back and forward buttons? |
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
83
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 14:57:00 -
[206] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:OP: Your usage analysis only means that the Mackinaw's role (a solo miner) is VERY well received and that the solo role is the most popular role. Also, all the miners you got a screen snap of are solo miners. This does not mean that the changes were bad. It means that they worked and made a lot of miners so happy that they bought and/or rebuilt Mackinaws.
These changes were excellent. In fact, one of the best changes I have ever seen.
In my main's corp, we now use ALL T2 ORE hulls. We did not throw away our Hulks. Mack : bread and butter miner Hulk : high yield fleet ops with Orca support Skiff : L4 Recon 3 - the ONLY ship I know of that has decent speed and can tank the poison clouds then harvest all that juicy ore on the far side. This is the ONLY way to make L4 Recon 3 actually pay. If any corp member gets L4 Recon 3, we fleet up and run it with three Skiffs. And, the 50m3 drone bay allows for full flights of miner IIs and light armor reppers. One ship can carry a flight of combat drones for ratz.
We are still working out uses for the Skiff. One issue is that we can't cloak the Skiff easily with it's single high slot, so we have to be careful about scouting them in and out of low sec, or at least work out a travel protocol.
This set of ORE changes has nearly completely altered and improved our mining ops as a corp. We are taking full advantage of the changes. I suggest everyone do the same, because if you do, you'll see there is nothing to complain about.
That's brilliant, very nice work there chaps. I just see Recon 4-3 as a chance to go make a sandwich while my domi slowboats over to the gate. "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 15:27:00 -
[207] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote: Skiff : L4 Recon 3 - the ONLY ship I know of that has decent speed and can tank the poison clouds then harvest all that juicy ore on the far side. This is the ONLY way to make L4 Recon 3 actually pay. If any corp member gets L4 Recon 3, we fleet up and run it with three Skiffs.
Any ship can get past the clouds. Timing.
|
Terraferma K10
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 17:26:00 -
[208] - Quote
Why aren't there Hulks in the sea of Macks? Would you park your lambo in a ghetto surrounded by hondas?
Just look at how most of you guys are reacting: "Must find hulk must find hulk must find hulk." Most of my ganker friends are feverishly jumping from system to system looking for hulks. Knowing this, would you be driving one of the most sought after targets or would you just bite the X% yield loss to have T-Rexs gloss over you in their "wtf another mack" rage?
Given my island bordering losec, I'll eat a little less yield to not have the insta-kill "hulk" label while PvPers are going crazy looking for blood during this time of change.
I recognize most mack-ers aren't using this mentality, but I posit that there are many hulk-ers (those with 2-3 accounts, orca/hauler support) abiding by this idea. Hell, I've never used a mack before and I bought 10-12 as soon as CCP wrote about their intended changes. |
Ezra Tair
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
87
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 21:36:00 -
[209] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Ezra Tair wrote:I am of the opinion that the changes are awesome. Are you really mad because now you don't need a separate character to haul if you use the midsize mining ships? Ship costs have been rising steadily since CCP removed other stream of ore into the game. Don't worry, they won't drop back down as low, but they won't stay as high either.
If your mad because guys can go afk mining ice for an hour? So what? How else do you play a mechanic that requires 5+ mins of staying 10km within a stationary object? The price drops with the influx of supply, and its not attractive, and they do something else. All the while they lower the isk cost of playing with capitals or running POSes.
Really, it sounds like you are mad because more people have a reason and the ability to mine without a real fear of being ganked. That lowers prices and thats bad for your, but good for others. deal bud. I think not. Just a few posts ago I wrote that the barge HP buff was needed. So you're saying that miners needed a 35k m3 ore hold in order to feel safe enough to mine without being ganked? That makes no sense. The ore hold size has nothing to do with ganking, and everything to do with every man and his dog taking up mining as a passive semi afk income, made possible only because of the indy size ore hold. Perhaps the devs need to add a way to do missions and pvp afk for up to an hour at a time too, since that seems to be the way we're heading.
Well as explained in the dev blog, they do not want to make industrial pointless, and they know they can't let it have a large cargohold and give it an tank that still tanks enough when the lows are full of cargo expanders. So they made a special use cargohold, so that people could fit tank without increasing their ability to move alot.
Instead of fighting a change that makes a dull ass action more bearable, you should employ your energies into making those dull ass actions less dull. It also costs 2-3 times a T2 transport, and 10x as much as a normal industrial. That it has some purpose and utility beyond "Sit and jettison ore" should not be surprising.
|
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 21:53:00 -
[210] - Quote
Terraferma K10 wrote:Why aren't there Hulks in the sea of Macks? Would you park your lambo in a ghetto surrounded by hondas?
Just look at how most of you guys are reacting: "Must find hulk must find hulk must find hulk." Most of my ganker friends are feverishly jumping from system to system looking for hulks. Knowing this, would you be driving one of the most sought after targets or would you just bite the X% yield loss to have T-Rexs gloss over you in their "wtf another mack" rage?
Given my island bordering losec, I'll eat a little less yield to not have the insta-kill "hulk" label while PvPers are going crazy looking for blood during this time of change.
I recognize most mack-ers aren't using this mentality, but I posit that there are many hulk-ers (those with 2-3 accounts, orca/hauler support) abiding by this idea. Hell, I've never used a mack before and I bought 10-12 as soon as CCP wrote about their intended changes.
There's no reason for hulks to be sought after over macs, since the patch their market prices have switched places, mackinkaws are now the expensive ship that is going to cause the most loss to a miner when ganked. |
|
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 00:22:00 -
[211] - Quote
MisterNick wrote:Pre-patch: "Waaaaa my barge is made of paper and dies if you look at it the wrong way"Post-patch: "Waaaa those mean Mackinaws hurt my hauler's feelings"In other news, -ú50 notes don't fit in my wallet very well Think you might as well scrap the haulers in belts? Feel free. If you're really so bothered about min-maxing though you'll notice that if you just haul with your Mack then you lose out on mining time while shuttling between station and belt.
Exept macks are not to be warships. Yet they can stand up to 2 Tornado Alpha's. Face facts CCP ALWAYS over react to miners scremaing, they did it in Jihad an they did it this week again.
Miners/afk/botters because to be honest afk'ers are one step removed from filthy bots... Refuse point blank to EVER take any responsibility for their game play. They demanded an were given full immunity an freedom to bot in peace which is what they want. Anywhere.
Try telling a miner that he can be utterly an completely safe in HS drop can mining an he just flat out ignores you. Because he Doesn't want to use D scan Doesn't want to mission belt mine Doesn't want to pay attention to local Doesn't want to ask others who the local gankers are Doesn't want to Move away from hub systems where it's safe.
They just flat out dont want to play, they want the game to be played for them.
It is impossible to get killed if you pay an ounce of attention an as much as the miners will try to tell you it isn't fair that they should follow the rule set rest of us have to facts are they are lazy, arrogant an know that to get anything they want, they just demand it off CCP/blizzard. |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 00:24:00 -
[212] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:Terraferma K10 wrote:Why aren't there Hulks in the sea of Macks? Would you park your lambo in a ghetto surrounded by hondas?
Just look at how most of you guys are reacting: "Must find hulk must find hulk must find hulk." Most of my ganker friends are feverishly jumping from system to system looking for hulks. Knowing this, would you be driving one of the most sought after targets or would you just bite the X% yield loss to have T-Rexs gloss over you in their "wtf another mack" rage?
Given my island bordering losec, I'll eat a little less yield to not have the insta-kill "hulk" label while PvPers are going crazy looking for blood during this time of change.
I recognize most mack-ers aren't using this mentality, but I posit that there are many hulk-ers (those with 2-3 accounts, orca/hauler support) abiding by this idea. Hell, I've never used a mack before and I bought 10-12 as soon as CCP wrote about their intended changes. There's no reason for hulks to be sought after over macs, since the patch their market prices have switched places, mackinkaws are now the expensive ship that is going to cause the most loss to a miner when ganked.
except hulks can be killed (if your really lucky). I attacked a hulk other night with blasters, an he just ignored me, I did scratch damage top him. |
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 00:56:00 -
[213] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:Suddenly Boom wrote:Terraferma K10 wrote:Why aren't there Hulks in the sea of Macks? Would you park your lambo in a ghetto surrounded by hondas?
Just look at how most of you guys are reacting: "Must find hulk must find hulk must find hulk." Most of my ganker friends are feverishly jumping from system to system looking for hulks. Knowing this, would you be driving one of the most sought after targets or would you just bite the X% yield loss to have T-Rexs gloss over you in their "wtf another mack" rage?
Given my island bordering losec, I'll eat a little less yield to not have the insta-kill "hulk" label while PvPers are going crazy looking for blood during this time of change.
I recognize most mack-ers aren't using this mentality, but I posit that there are many hulk-ers (those with 2-3 accounts, orca/hauler support) abiding by this idea. Hell, I've never used a mack before and I bought 10-12 as soon as CCP wrote about their intended changes. There's no reason for hulks to be sought after over macs, since the patch their market prices have switched places, mackinkaws are now the expensive ship that is going to cause the most loss to a miner when ganked. except hulks can be killed (if your really lucky). I attacked a hulk other night with blasters, an he just ignored me, I did scratch damage top him.
Yes hulks can be killed but there's no longer a reason to target them specifically, hulks are now the cheaper ship because everyone is switching to asteroid solo pwnmobile macs. |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
448
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 00:58:00 -
[214] - Quote
oh look, every one is switching to mackinaws.
like i didn't predict this one coming a month ago... Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
157
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 01:09:00 -
[215] - Quote
For real no idear, why people like OP have so much hate against miner :(.
You can PvP with one ACC. I don't talk about solo PvP! Just one account. (Two+ acc provide much more risk as it's likely to lose one if you don't pay attantion). You can PvE with one ACC. Two are helpy but realy no need for Missions/Plexing/Ratting. But you could NOT solo mine till this patch!
One of the most simple actions couldn't be done solo? That was just WRONG! Either you used jet-cans but more often then not some wannabe Rambo tryed to steal your ore or flip the can. Many times when I docked to switch from Bark to Hauler I found empty cans :(. Or you hauled every 5 mins which was a pain (most missions requier more time if you don't blitz them).
Now I don't have to dock to get my bounty (ore) to the station :). Finaly I can mine with ONE account like I can PvE with just one and PvP with just one.
So the only one who cry like pink babys about this change are can flippers and ore thiefs.
And to be honest ... WHO CARES! Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 01:13:00 -
[216] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:For real no idear, why people like OP have so much hate against miner :(.
You can PvP with one ACC. I don't talk about solo PvP! Just one account. (Two+ acc provide much more risk as it's likely to lose one if you don't pay attantion). You can PvE with one ACC. Two are helpy but realy no need for Missions/Plexing/Ratting. But you could NOT solo mine till this patch!
One of the most simple actions couldn't be done solo? That was just WRONG! Either you used jet-cans but more often then not some wannabe Rambo tryed to steal your ore or flip the can. Many times when I docked to switch from Bark to Hauler I found empty cans :(. Or you hauled every 5 mins which was a pain (most missions requier more time if you don't blitz them).
Now I don't have to dock to get my bounty (ore) to the station :). Finaly I can mine with ONE account like I can PvE with just one and PvP with just one.
So the only one who cry like pink babys about this change are can flippers and ore thiefs.
And to be honest ... WHO CARES!
LOL see what I mean, this guy is the prime example. Totally ignored the facts an the few simple rules you can follow to be safe. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9089
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 01:37:00 -
[217] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:Exept macks are not to be warships. Yet they can stand up to 2 Tornado Alpha's. So could the Hulks of yore. Luckily, as with those Hulk, the miners have this interesting tendency of not fitting tanks to their ships, making the Macks as vulnerable to Tornados as those old Hulks.
GǪnot that you need a Tornado to kill such a ship.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
157
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 02:01:00 -
[218] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:LOL see what I mean, this guy is the prime example. Totally ignored the facts an the few simple rules you can follow to be safe. YouMad?
But I see what you mean :)
"BUHAHAH, I was a can flipper and now I can't do my wannabe Rambo stuff anymore, MAAAAAMMMMMIIII, they took my lollypop!!!!!1111" Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 02:27:00 -
[219] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Melodee619 wrote:LOL see what I mean, this guy is the prime example. Totally ignored the facts an the few simple rules you can follow to be safe. YouMad? But I see what you mean :) "BUHAHAH, I was a can flipper and now I can't do my wannabe Rambo stuff anymore, MAAAAAMMMMMIIII, they took my lollypop!!!!!1111" PS: want to gank multi million ISK ships? BRING MULTI MILLION ISK SHIPS! 300m isk should die? invest 300m!
No idea what you were trying to say bnut i get the gist of it. A. I dont cry I state facts B. who made you miners so special that you dont rate following the rule set like rest of us. C I am not a flipper. I dont need isk I kill for fun, period. D.I dont get angry this is a computer game nothing more. it ceases to exist once I log off. E. You botters/afkers are ones who did all the crying because you want to have CCP play eve for you, hence these idiotic changes. As I said before, before these changes following 5 simple rules means you NEVER die.. but that was too much for you lol.
You miners are giggle worthy I'll give you that, you demand to be protected by CCP yet for years you have been told how to remove any risk to your gaming/botting an you just ignore it.you lot are actually worse than mission runners who are now demanding CCP remove any risk to their gaming too.
Amusing.
edit as for spending isk. You choose to mine, you take on the cost, your fault when you die, none els. I personally spend up to 200 million per kill |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9089
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 02:31:00 -
[220] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:PS: want to gank multi million ISK ships? BRING MULTI MILLION ISK SHIPS! 300m isk should die? invest 300m! Fortunately, the game doesn't operate on that kind of class/level-game logic.
Cost is not a balancing factor.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
|
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 02:38:00 -
[221] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Cost is not a balancing factor.
hmmmm.... |
James 315
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2386
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 02:42:00 -
[222] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:PS: want to gank multi million ISK ships? BRING MULTI MILLION ISK SHIPS! 300m isk should die? invest 300m! Why should we bring 300 million isk ships if miners won't fit <1 million isk tank mods?
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ MinerBumping.com -½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½The daily saga of one man's quest to bring civilization to highsec by bumping miners out of range. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4358
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 02:43:00 -
[223] - Quote
itt: people think that hisec ganking is supposed to be balanced across all sec bands by the cost of the ships involved "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
157
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 02:57:00 -
[224] - Quote
Realy no idear why some of you rage so much.
Isn't this game called a SANDBOX game? Doesn't the one who like to mine pay the same real money as you do equal what you do?
If they want to afk-mine and have fun doing it .. what the hell is your damn problem????? They found their little corner in this SANDBOX like you found your corner.
If I check the forums I allways find semi-arguments like: "I do nothing wrong, it's legit game mechanic" or "I do it for fun". You must be realy short mindet, if you belive, your way is the only true way people can have fun (and should be allowed to have fun)!
Yes, I do semi-afk mining too and I LOVE it! I pay ~12,-Gé¼ each month just to be able to do it (and no, not plex, I use real money!!). While I do it, I watch TV or read a book or do my normal hause work (the stuff you have to do if you have no mom anymore). In addition I invest several hundret million ISK to make my miner a good miner (tank or yield or mix what ever I like).
So where is your damn legitimation which says: you just need 20m to destroy this?? Right, there is no such legitimation!! And your:" buhaha but I want to" is by far not enough! It's not even worth the hot air comming out of your mouth. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4358
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 03:01:00 -
[225] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Realy no idear why some of you rage so much.
Isn't this game called a SANDBOX game? Doesn't the one who like to mine pay the same real money as you do equal what you do?
If they want to afk-mine and have fun doing it .. what the hell is your damn problem????? They found their little corner in this SANDBOX like you found your corner.
If I check the forums I allways find semi-arguments like: "I do nothing wrong, it's legit game mechanic" or "I do it for fun". You must be realy short mindet, if you belive, your way is the only true way people can have fun (and should be allowed to have fun)!
Yes, I do semi-afk mining too and I LOVE it! I pay ~12,-Gé¼ each month just to be able to do it (and no, not plex, I use real money!!). While I do it, I watch TV or read a book or do my normal hause work (the stuff you have to do if you have no mom anymore). In addition I invest several hundret million ISK to make my miner a good miner (tank or yield or mix what ever I like).
So where is your damn legitimation which says: you just need 20m to destroy this?? Right, there is no such legitimation!! And your:" buhaha but I want to" is by far not enough! It's not even worth the hot air comming out of your mouth.
sorry, sandbox doesn't mean "you can do whatever your lil heart desires with zero chance of any interference from other players" "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
ashley Eoner
43
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 03:05:00 -
[226] - Quote
Andski wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Realy no idear why some of you rage so much.
Isn't this game called a SANDBOX game? Doesn't the one who like to mine pay the same real money as you do equal what you do?
If they want to afk-mine and have fun doing it .. what the hell is your damn problem????? They found their little corner in this SANDBOX like you found your corner.
If I check the forums I allways find semi-arguments like: "I do nothing wrong, it's legit game mechanic" or "I do it for fun". You must be realy short mindet, if you belive, your way is the only true way people can have fun (and should be allowed to have fun)!
Yes, I do semi-afk mining too and I LOVE it! I pay ~12,-Gé¼ each month just to be able to do it (and no, not plex, I use real money!!). While I do it, I watch TV or read a book or do my normal hause work (the stuff you have to do if you have no mom anymore). In addition I invest several hundret million ISK to make my miner a good miner (tank or yield or mix what ever I like).
So where is your damn legitimation which says: you just need 20m to destroy this?? Right, there is no such legitimation!! And your:" buhaha but I want to" is by far not enough! It's not even worth the hot air comming out of your mouth. sorry, sandbox doesn't mean "you can do whatever your lil heart desires with zero chance of any interference from other players" You are completely correct sir. That's why I'm glad I can still gank people that need to die.. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9089
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 03:15:00 -
[227] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Isn't this game called a SANDBOX game? Doesn't the one who like to mine pay the same real money as you do equal what you do?
If they want to afk-mine and have fun doing it .. what the hell is your damn problem????? They found their little corner in this SANDBOX like you found your corner. The problem is that they have this tendency to demand that their little corner be made exclusive to them and not let the rest of the sandbox players in (but they must still be allowed access to the rest of the sandbox)GǪ
GǪwhich ironically means that they haven't quite understood what this whole sandbox thing means. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
157
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 03:56:00 -
[228] - Quote
Andski wrote: sorry, sandbox doesn't mean "you can do whatever your lil heart desires with zero chance of any interference from other players"
They do over the market ... which by the defenition of many gankers is PvP too ... as everywhere is PvP. This is one of the standart answares of GANKERS! Market = PvP! So it comes from guys like YOU!
So again, what is your problem?
PS: oh and YOU can do what you want and should be allowed to do it .... but other are NOT allowed and should NOT be allowed to do what they want? Can imagin just one word for this: AROGANT Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 04:25:00 -
[229] - Quote
Andski wrote:itt: people think that hisec ganking is supposed to be balanced across all sec bands by the cost of the ships involved
When devs post stuff like "The money you paid for a ship to gank with compared to the money lost by your target was completely off", it sounds like cost IS being used to balance the game. And to a certain degree, they should continue to do so. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 05:34:00 -
[230] - Quote
James 315 wrote:Why should we bring 300 million isk ships if miners won't fit <1 million isk tank mods?
8,4M > 1M
Andski wrote:sorry, sandbox doesn't mean "you can do whatever your lil heart desires with zero chance of any interference from other players"
But only thing you care about is your stupid profit. If only thing you want is to interfere, why do you care about your little iskies?
You can still gank my Rokh in 1.0 system if you so want. But no, you don't do it because you will lose money! |
|
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1689
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 09:04:00 -
[231] - Quote
Quote:PS: oh and YOU can do what you want and should be allowed to do it .... but other are NOT allowed and should NOT be allowed to do what they want? That's the carebears-attitude, you genius.
The carebears believe they have a right to be safe, while the gankers try to show them they have not.
The carebears are wrong ! Are you people that dumb ? Really ? The game mechanics *clearly show* that everybody can do what they want ! The carebears can do what they want too, but they DIE BECAUSE OF IT AND IT'S THEIR OWN FAULT !
That's the game ! Is it that hard to grasp ? o_O
It's not about "a way to play" ! It's about "what do game mechanics allow me to do" !
Just kill 'em all ! Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
157
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:21:00 -
[232] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Quote:PS: oh and YOU can do what you want and should be allowed to do it .... but other are NOT allowed and should NOT be allowed to do what they want? That's the carebears-attitude, you genius. The carebears believe they have a right to be safe, while the gankers try to show them they have not. Sorry but this is what wannabe mini Rambos belive.
They belive, they are heroic, when they kill helpless targets. They allways cry "this is sandbox". They belive, they can DICTATE, what everyone should do.
And as soon as someone does not worship this mini Rambos they start to flame and flood the forum like pink babys.
Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9094
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:38:00 -
[233] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Sorry but this is what wannabe mini Rambos belive. No, it's what the carebears believe. The mini-rambos don't think you shouldn't be allowed to do what you want. They think you should learn how the game works and the consequences of your choices rather than come screaming for changes when those choices blow up in your face.
Quote:They belive, they are heroic, when they kill helpless targets. They allways cry "this is sandbox". They belive, they can DICTATE, what everyone should do. Can you provide an example of this?
Quote:Oh and btw ... which ships do you want to fly without miner? No miner => no production => NO SHIPS FOR YOU! If there were no miners left, the actual industrialists would step in and the production would just keep going. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4360
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:47:00 -
[234] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:Andski wrote:itt: people think that hisec ganking is supposed to be balanced across all sec bands by the cost of the ships involved When devs post stuff like "The money you paid for a ship to gank with compared to the money lost by your target was completely off", it sounds like cost IS being used to balance the game. And to a certain degree, they should continue to do so.
tell me exactly how you can require x amount of isk to gank, say, a hulk "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1689
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:54:00 -
[235] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Sorry but this is what wannabe mini Rambos belive.
They belive, they are heroic, when they kill helpless targets. They allways cry "this is sandbox". They belive, they can DICTATE, what everyone should do.
And as soon as someone does not worship this mini Rambos they start to flame and flood the forum like pink babys "mumi, they don't want to play like I play *whine whine whine*".
Oh and btw ... which ships do you want to fly without miner? No miner => no production => NO SHIPS FOR YOU!
Ah, I see, you just want to run your own mining bots :D. That's why no other player should be allowed to do it. NOW I understand *enlight*.
What Tippia said. Nothing more needs to be added.
Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
157
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:02:00 -
[236] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Sorry but this is what wannabe mini Rambos belive. No, it's what the carebears believe. The mini-rambos don't think you shouldn't be allowed to do what you want. They think you should learn how the game works and the consequences of your choices rather than come screaming for changes when those choices blow up in your face. You are the best excample that I am right. You cry "I can't do anymore what I want to do". You expect, you can do what you want and noone is allowed to stop your doing ... not even CCP.
[/quote]Quote:They belive, they are heroic, when they kill helpless targets. They allways cry "this is sandbox". They belive, they can DICTATE, what everyone should do. Can you provide an example of this?[/quote] Again your posts are the best excample. "I show them how they have to play this game". WHO are you? Who gave YOU the right to do it? So YOU try to dictate the Miners how they should play! Oh, it's sandbox so YOU can do whatever you want (gank) ... but not the miners god forbid!! And the only reason you post here is, that you now can't do it with just 20m but need to invest 300m.
Someone told you: what you do has not enough risk ... and that's why you are so angry now
Quote:Quote:Oh and btw ... which ships do you want to fly without miner? No miner => no production => NO SHIPS FOR YOU! If there were no miners left, the actual industrialists would step in and the production would just keep going. ROFL what?? This is just stupid! Most if not all Miners ARE allready Producer. And nealy every Producer is Miner at the same time. Except the Producer is a ISK-maker Alt for something else.
And even if there would be anything corect about your false statement ... you would never care if you gank a bot, a semi-afk, an active or an producer ... you just want to gank! Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Zishy
Demon-War-Lords Fatal Ascension
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:06:00 -
[237] - Quote
Tikera Tissant wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:
For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore.
The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. If you really want a dedicated hauler anyway, just use another Mackinkaw, it can mine between hauling sessions. If you're going to do that though you may aswell just use each miner as its own hauler anyway. God, this is so dumb.
You are dead wrong. When mining in a team you are mining in hulks. They dump their load to the orca, and the orca either takes the ore to the station, or you are using another orca to transfer the ore to the station. There is absolutely no reason to use mackinaws in a team ops. Even when not tanked they will not do as much m3/hour as a tanked hulk with a booster orca. No need to go and dump your load means lots more cycles dedicated to mining than flying to station, which makes the ops a hell of alot more efficient. Using macks in a team is very in-efficient. For a solo miner, its retriever->mackinaw. For a group miner its retriever->hulk. For a null miner its mainly a skiff.
what kind of bullshit are you writing here.
solo miner = mackinaw group miner = mackinaw>hulk null miner = mackinaw>hulk
|
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
157
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:12:00 -
[238] - Quote
Zishy wrote:Tikera Tissant wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:
For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore.
The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. If you really want a dedicated hauler anyway, just use another Mackinkaw, it can mine between hauling sessions. If you're going to do that though you may aswell just use each miner as its own hauler anyway. God, this is so dumb.
You are dead wrong. When mining in a team you are mining in hulks. They dump their load to the orca, and the orca either takes the ore to the station, or you are using another orca to transfer the ore to the station. There is absolutely no reason to use mackinaws in a team ops. Even when not tanked they will not do as much m3/hour as a tanked hulk with a booster orca. No need to go and dump your load means lots more cycles dedicated to mining than flying to station, which makes the ops a hell of alot more efficient. Using macks in a team is very in-efficient. For a solo miner, its retriever->mackinaw. For a group miner its retriever->hulk. For a null miner its mainly a skiff. what kind of bullshit are you writing here. solo miner = mackinaw group miner = mackinaw>hulk null miner = mackinaw>hulk LOL??? Did you read the DEV-Blog?
In a group where you have Haulers Hulk>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mackinaw. If you mine in dangures areas Skif >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mackinaw. If you are to lazy anything >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YOU
The numbers don't lie. You do! Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1689
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:15:00 -
[239] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:... bla ...
You simply don't get the game ... that's all ... and in the same moment you keep blaming us for forcing "our way of playing" onto you, while you just keep ignoring that we don't ... and keep ignoring how the game works.
We just play the game how we can. You do that too, but your ignorance hinders you of the realization that if you play the way you want to ... you will get blown up.
You try to keep this at a personal level ("YOU FORCE US"), while it's not.
The only group trying to force things onto others is the carebears, because they believe they have a right to be left alone ... ... while the game mechanics clearly show that they don't.
As you have no other defense and can't get past your ignorance, you will just keep blaming us for your own wrongdoings.
TL;DR:
You deserve to die, by your own decision. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9096
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:17:00 -
[240] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:You are the best excample that I am right. You cry "I can't do anymore what I want to do". GǪand you can point to an example of this, I presume?
Quote:Again your posts are the best excample "I show them how they have to play this game". WHO are you? Who gave YOU the right to do it? So YOU try to dictate the Miners how they should play! How am I dictating anything? I'm telling them how the game works and how they can make use of the tools available to solve the issues they're having, removing the need to cry endlessly over something that was never a problem to begin with. By the way. I don't gank. So nice ad hominem. Since your entire post rests on this basic fallacy, it's pretty much all wrong. Would you like to try again?
Quote:Someone told you: what you do has not enough risk ... and that's why you are so angry now I know that what I do doesn't have enough risk. That's why I want to see ganking made easier and more common: so my risks increase. I don't know why you're so angry about me wanting to see more risk for meGǪ
You seem to assume that only carebears can mine. If there were no more miners, then the industrialists GÇö the people who do the same thing without the carebear entitlement issues and their incomplete understanding of game fundamentals GÇö will step in and keep the line going. They will not stop producing just because they get ganked GÇö they'll find a way around it (in fact, they probably already have) or include it as a general business expense and keep going. So tell me, why would they not want to mine any more?
Zishy wrote:solo miner = mackinaw group miner = mackinaw>hulk null miner = mackinaw>hulk Lol no. For group mining, Hulk >>>>>>> Mack, because the group lets the Hulk do what the Hulk does best GÇö extract massive amounts of base materials GÇö without being held back by what it doesn't do well. You're also skipping the fourth category: paranoid miner = Skiff > all. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
|
Kiandoshia
Gnampf Inc.
453
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:19:00 -
[241] - Quote
Quote:It's already apparent what effect this is having on the ice market. If the trend continues, soon the only people mining ice will be bots and afk alts.
And how exactly is that different to the situation that has been in existance for like.. as long as I play this game =p |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
157
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:27:00 -
[242] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:... bla ... You simply don't get the game ... that's all ... and in the same moment you keep blaming us for forcing "our way of playing" onto you, while you just keep ignoring that we don't ... and keep ignoring how the game works. Ah, I don't get the game?
There are Asteroids with Ore which I can gather by using a Bark and Miner equip to sell it at the Market. As soon as I undock there is a risk to lose the Bark+Equip+gathered stuff. I like to do this and as it's a a LEGETIM part of this sandbox game .... I do it! And I'm realy happy, that I don't have to be 100% active like I have to be when I play WoT, LoL or other action games as I can do real life stuff too while I play.
THIS is the game for me!
You don't like my little corner of this sandbox? NOT my problem!
But it seams to be a BIG problem for you to except my little corner. YOUR problem! And as it is YOUR problem, you want me to convice, that this game has to be played the way YOU want it.
Well realy realy sorry ... but I give a **** how you want it to be. I found my corner which I like and can't see any reason to leave this corner! Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
157
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:32:00 -
[243] - Quote
Tippia wrote:[How am I dictating anything? I'm telling them how the game works HAHAHAHA, this is funny :) You tell them how you want the game to work ..... but naaaa, you don't dictate it. Yea, this was a nice joke .
As if someone would need YOU to tell him how the game work. Tutorial >>>>>>>> YOU!
Tutorial says "you can be a Miner" => your opinions are irelevant! Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:35:00 -
[244] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Zishy wrote:Tikera Tissant wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:
For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore.
The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. If you really want a dedicated hauler anyway, just use another Mackinkaw, it can mine between hauling sessions. If you're going to do that though you may aswell just use each miner as its own hauler anyway. God, this is so dumb.
You are dead wrong. When mining in a team you are mining in hulks. They dump their load to the orca, and the orca either takes the ore to the station, or you are using another orca to transfer the ore to the station. There is absolutely no reason to use mackinaws in a team ops. Even when not tanked they will not do as much m3/hour as a tanked hulk with a booster orca. No need to go and dump your load means lots more cycles dedicated to mining than flying to station, which makes the ops a hell of alot more efficient. Using macks in a team is very in-efficient. For a solo miner, its retriever->mackinaw. For a group miner its retriever->hulk. For a null miner its mainly a skiff. what kind of bullshit are you writing here. solo miner = mackinaw group miner = mackinaw>hulk null miner = mackinaw>hulk LOL??? Did you read the DEV-Blog? In a group where you have Haulers Hulk>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mackinaw. If you mine in dangures areas Skif >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mackinaw. If you are to lazy anything >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YOU The numbers don't lie. You do!
The numbers don't lie, almost all orca mining groups are using macs, even group miners don't want the hulk. See for yourself all the orcas in the belts in these screens and the mac dominance even in the presence of many orcas. Almost all players will take the huge convenience the mac offers over the hulk.
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3889/vaurent.jpg http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4728/oppold.jpg http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/1461/misneden.jpg http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/4369/kinfield2.jpg http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1443/kinfield1.jpg http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3065/eygm.jpg http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/4093/elona.jpg http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2774/dant.jpg http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/7449/brapelle.jpg http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/4291/ardall.jpg http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/6778/abudban.jpg http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/2702/aakari.jpg |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9096
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:40:00 -
[245] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:You tell them how you want the game to work ..... but naaaa, you don't dictate it. No. I tell them how the game works. CCP dictates it.
Quote:As if someone would need YOU to tell him how the game work. Tutorial >>>>>>>> YOU! The tutorial doesn't cover the issues I'm going over and explaining.
Quote:Tutorial says "you can be a Miner" => your opinions are irelevant! Non sequitur. Why are my opinions rendered irrelevant by the tutorial? It's not like they contradict each other.
Suddenly Boom wrote:The numbers don't lie, almost all orca mining groups are using macs, even group miners don't want the hulk. See for yourself all the orcas in the belts in these screens and the overwhelming mac dominance even in the presence of many orcas. You're missing a rather important column in those screen shots. There's nothing to suggest that any of those actually group mine. The numbers don't lie, but all they're showing is that people like the solo playstyle. This is not news. It doesn't contradict that the Hulk is a better mining ship and that it excels in fleets. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
157
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:42:00 -
[246] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote: The numbers don't lie, almost all orca mining groups are using macs, even group miners don't want the hulk.
But NOT becouse the Hulk doesn't mine less.
They use the Mack a) becouse they are lazy and don't want to jetcan every minute or b) they prefare to have a bit more safty to prevent small gank suizids.
There are many topics where gankers say "CCP can buff miners as much as they want ... the Miner will still fit for max Yield" (no, I don't do the search for you, use brain+search function and you will find it!). Now the Miner DO prefare a bit more defens ... and again you try to blame them when they learned: - max Yield == bad - bit defens == good ROFL?
Hulk HAS the best Yield/min. Skif HAS the best defens. Mack offers a good mix.
Works as intended, nothing wrong. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Zishy
Demon-War-Lords Fatal Ascension
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:54:00 -
[247] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Zishy wrote:Tikera Tissant wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:
For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore.
The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. If you really want a dedicated hauler anyway, just use another Mackinkaw, it can mine between hauling sessions. If you're going to do that though you may aswell just use each miner as its own hauler anyway. God, this is so dumb.
You are dead wrong. When mining in a team you are mining in hulks. They dump their load to the orca, and the orca either takes the ore to the station, or you are using another orca to transfer the ore to the station. There is absolutely no reason to use mackinaws in a team ops. Even when not tanked they will not do as much m3/hour as a tanked hulk with a booster orca. No need to go and dump your load means lots more cycles dedicated to mining than flying to station, which makes the ops a hell of alot more efficient. Using macks in a team is very in-efficient. For a solo miner, its retriever->mackinaw. For a group miner its retriever->hulk. For a null miner its mainly a skiff. what kind of bullshit are you writing here. solo miner = mackinaw group miner = mackinaw>hulk null miner = mackinaw>hulk LOL??? Did you read the DEV-Blog? In a group where you have Haulers Hulk>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mackinaw. If you mine in dangures areas Skif >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mackinaw. If you are to lazy anything >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YOU The numbers don't lie. You do!
sweety i mine with full rorqual boosts and 6hulks. 6macks actualy are better then 6 hulks because you can just drop a full can every 10minutes instead of having to drag **** from your cargohold every 104seconds. my hulks yield is over 5k per cycle so in order for me not to drop stripminers i have to click every single account and drag the ore out into a can.
with macks all this trouble is nonexistent. i dont know what you publords are doing in empire space but in null where the big boys and girls live its very different
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9097
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:57:00 -
[248] - Quote
Zishy wrote:sweety i mine with full rorqual boosts and 6hulks. 6macks actualy are better then 6 hulks because you can just drop a full can every 10minutes instead of having to drag **** from your cargohold every 104seconds. my hulks yield is over 5k per cycle so in order for me not to drop stripminers i have to click every single account and drag the ore out into a can. GǪso in other words, you're not really fleet mining. You're solo mining with a small gang of ships. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Velicitia
Open Designs
1073
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:05:00 -
[249] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote: Hulk HAS the best Yield/min. Skif HAS the best defens. Mack offers a good mix.
Works as intended, nothing wrong.
Actually, I bet if we looked at the fits, we'd see the macks are (primarily) fit for max yield, with a **** tank.
|
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:06:00 -
[250] - Quote
Zishy wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Zishy wrote:Tikera Tissant wrote:Tigress Tionese wrote:
For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore.
The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. If you really want a dedicated hauler anyway, just use another Mackinkaw, it can mine between hauling sessions. If you're going to do that though you may aswell just use each miner as its own hauler anyway. God, this is so dumb.
You are dead wrong. When mining in a team you are mining in hulks. They dump their load to the orca, and the orca either takes the ore to the station, or you are using another orca to transfer the ore to the station. There is absolutely no reason to use mackinaws in a team ops. Even when not tanked they will not do as much m3/hour as a tanked hulk with a booster orca. No need to go and dump your load means lots more cycles dedicated to mining than flying to station, which makes the ops a hell of alot more efficient. Using macks in a team is very in-efficient. For a solo miner, its retriever->mackinaw. For a group miner its retriever->hulk. For a null miner its mainly a skiff. what kind of bullshit are you writing here. solo miner = mackinaw group miner = mackinaw>hulk null miner = mackinaw>hulk LOL??? Did you read the DEV-Blog? In a group where you have Haulers Hulk>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mackinaw. If you mine in dangures areas Skif >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mackinaw. If you are to lazy anything >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YOU The numbers don't lie. You do! sweety i mine with full rorqual boosts and 6hulks. 6macks actualy are better then 6 hulks because you can just drop a full can every 10minutes instead of having to drag **** from your cargohold every 104seconds. my hulks yield is over 5k per cycle so in order for me not to drop stripminers i have to click every single account and drag the ore out into a can. with macks all this trouble is nonexistent. i dont know what you publords are doing in empire space but in null where the big boys and girls live its very different
This guy spelled it out right here. With the hulk he has to drop the ore every 104 seconds, with the mack you can mine for a much longer period without worrying about ore overflow, you can have afk breaks. Over a long period a mac user will mine more than a hulk user because they can mine and relax at the same time, resulting in much longer mining sessions. |
|
Sarton Wells
Blackmoon Ltd.
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:16:00 -
[251] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:This guy spelled it out right here. With the hulk he has to drop the ore every 104 seconds, with the mack you can mine for a much longer period without worrying about ore overflow, you can have afk breaks. Over a long period a mac user will mine more than a hulk user because they can mine and relax at the same time, resulting in much longer mining sessions.
And that's why gankers have no reason to fear for the safety of their job. |
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:23:00 -
[252] - Quote
Sarton Wells wrote:Suddenly Boom wrote:This guy spelled it out right here. With the hulk he has to drop the ore every 104 seconds, with the mack you can mine for a much longer period without worrying about ore overflow, you can have afk breaks. Over a long period a mac user will mine more than a hulk user because they can mine and relax at the same time, resulting in much longer mining sessions. And that's why gankers have no reason to fear for the safety of their job.
I am a huge ganker of miners, with two top dps catalysts at my disposal. 2 is only enough for zero tank macks, semi tanked or greater requires 3-4 catalysts and i'm not sure if i want to invest in 2 more accounts just so i can clear the belts again :) people in the minmatar hi-sec ice fields will know me well :) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9097
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:25:00 -
[253] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:I am a huge ganker of miners, with two top dps catalysts at my disposal. 2 is only enough for zero tank macks, semi tanked or greater requires 3-4 catalysts and i'm not sure if i want to invest in 2 more accounts just so i can clear the belts again :) people in the minmatar hi-sec ice fields will know me well :) GǪand that is why 2 will still be enough more often than not.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Zishy
Demon-War-Lords Fatal Ascension
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:32:00 -
[254] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:Sarton Wells wrote:Suddenly Boom wrote:This guy spelled it out right here. With the hulk he has to drop the ore every 104 seconds, with the mack you can mine for a much longer period without worrying about ore overflow, you can have afk breaks. Over a long period a mac user will mine more than a hulk user because they can mine and relax at the same time, resulting in much longer mining sessions. And that's why gankers have no reason to fear for the safety of their job. I am a huge ganker of miners, with two top dps catalysts at my disposal. 2 is only enough for zero tank macks, semi tanked or greater requires 3-4 catalysts and i'm not sure if i want to invest in 2 more accounts just so i can clear the belts again :) people in the minmatar hi-sec ice fields will know me well :)
you cant beat my macks/hulks in terms of tank. your catalysts will cry when they see my tanks
gistii a/b-type booster pith/gist b-typ kinetic/thermal hardeners
have fun ganking that, if you even can. you would need a shitload of luck to even get to me. if you dont die on the way, if you can scan down the grav sites and if you can actualy catch somebody in the grav site that hasnt warped off yet, you will definetly get killed by somebody reshipping into a combatship and ****** by a bubbled outgate when you try to run away
its not as easy as you think. sure in empire space there will still be retards without a tank on their hulks, but where i mine, thats simply not going to happen. a battleship/bc spawn does more dps then you and i can tank a drake or a hurricane doing my damage profile perfectly fine. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4362
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:33:00 -
[255] - Quote
Zishy wrote:you cant beat my macks/hulks in terms of tank. your catalysts will cry when they see my tanks
gistii a/b-type booster pith/gist b-typ kinetic/thermal hardeners
have fun ganking that, if you even can. you would need a shitload of luck to even get to me. if you dont die on the way, if you can scan down the grav sites and if you can actualy catch somebody in the grav site that hasnt warped off yet, you will definetly get killed by somebody reshipping into a combatship and ****** by a bubbled outgate when you try to run away
fyi you're just a really shiny target "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Milla Lekarariba
Mustang Freight and Industry
16
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:46:00 -
[256] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:Tippia wrote:Suddenly Boom wrote:Nobody has pointed out that mackinkaw now holds more ore than an industrial hauler? How has nobody seen the fail logic in this? Seeing as how you can't use the Mack as an industrial hauler, the fail logic lies in comparing it to one. That was the entire reason for giving it a specific ore hold: so it can't be used that way, because all it ever will (and can) carry is space-wasting ore. If you want to haul stuff, the best ship for it is an industrial, since they can carry far more (both in terms of stuff and in terms of variety) than a simple mining ship can. Unless you're using that industrial ship to haul ore from the belt, which is more its primary use.
Rubbish, you are forgetting one key thing here, training times, and of course do not forget the ever so slightly (sarcasm) different costs of buying those ships.
Even if you (god forbid) go to max out an industrial with cargo rigs etc, it is STILL cheaper than buying a Mack. The only people who may use the Mack as an industrial are those who use it to mine, although with the higher risk of a gank, MOST would stick to an industrial as even though weaker, is potentially safer
|
Zishy
Demon-War-Lords Fatal Ascension
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:47:00 -
[257] - Quote
Andski wrote:Zishy wrote:you cant beat my macks/hulks in terms of tank. your catalysts will cry when they see my tanks
gistii a/b-type booster pith/gist b-typ kinetic/thermal hardeners
have fun ganking that, if you even can. you would need a shitload of luck to even get to me. if you dont die on the way, if you can scan down the grav sites and if you can actualy catch somebody in the grav site that hasnt warped off yet, you will definetly get killed by somebody reshipping into a combatship and ****** by a bubbled outgate when you try to run away fyi you're just a really shiny target
yes all my ships are shiny (: |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9099
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:48:00 -
[258] - Quote
Zishy wrote:you cant beat my macks/hulks in terms of tank. your catalysts will cry when they see my tanks
gistii a/b-type booster pith/gist b-typ kinetic/thermal hardeners I think that, by GÇ£cryGÇ¥, you mean GÇ£jump for joyGÇ¥.
You're fitting a module that doesn't help other than to make you a more worthwhile target.
Gistii A-type: 62.7 HP @-á1.7s cycle when overheated = 690 raw HP added at most in the time it takes for CONCORD to arrive. Much much less as you increase the sec level. Sets you back, oh, 200M or soGǪ for ~290k ISK per HP at best; over 1M ISK per HP at worst. Medium FS-9 extender: 900 raw HP added, no matter what. Sets you back 2M ISK for 2k ISK per HP every time.
Congratulations, you made your ship more than twice as expensive; you increased the gain for ganking you by an order of magnitue; and you made the ship weakerGǪ oh, and they're going to use Thrasher against you so your hardeners aren't helping. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Zishy
Demon-War-Lords Fatal Ascension
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:51:00 -
[259] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Zishy wrote:you cant beat my macks/hulks in terms of tank. your catalysts will cry when they see my tanks
gistii a/b-type booster pith/gist b-typ kinetic/thermal hardeners I think that, by GÇ£cryGÇ¥, you mean GÇ£jump for joyGÇ¥. You're fitting a module that doesn't help other than to make you a more worthwhile target. Gistii A-type: 62.7 HP @-á1.7s cycle when overheated = 690 raw HP added at most in the time it takes for CONCORD to arrive. Much much less as you increase the sec level. Sets you back, oh, 200M or soGǪ for ~290k ISK per HP at best; over 1M ISK per HP at worst. Medium FS-9 extender: 900 raw HP added, no matter what. Sets you back 2M ISK for 2k ISK per HP every time. Congratulations, you made your ship more than twice as expensive; you increased the gain for ganking you by an order of magnitue; and you made the ship weakerGǪ oh, and they're going to use Thrasher against you so your hardeners aren't helping.
you have no ******* clue what you can fit on a ship do you? there are no medium extenders on hulks or macks. and with 90% resists in kinetic or thermal his catalysts will be **** at best.
i have not lost a single hulk or mack yet - why? because i dont mine in ******* empire space. its dangerous and its stupid |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9101
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:03:00 -
[260] - Quote
Zishy wrote:you have no ******* clue what you can fit on a ship do you? Sure I do. For instance, I know how to get a MSE on there, which does you a whole lot more good than an active booster.
Quote:i have not lost a single hulk or mack yet - why? because i dont mine in ******* empire space. Then the booster is even more meaningless. They have no clock to fight against and your active tank is insignificant compared to the DPS they can bring, even if they choose to go after your main resists. There's also no unavoidable loss so they can bring whatever they like. How many cycles do you think you'll get off when you're staring down the barrel of 5k DPS?
In short: don't fit an active booster. It does. Not. Help. You. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
|
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2583
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:10:00 -
[261] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Zishy wrote:you have no ******* clue what you can fit on a ship do you? Sure I do. For instance, I know how to get a MSE on there, which does you a whole lot more good than an active booster. Quote:i have not lost a single hulk or mack yet - why? because i dont mine in ******* empire space. Then the booster is even more meaningless. They have no clock to fight against and your active tank is insignificant compared to the DPS they can bring, even if they choose to go after your main resists. There's also no unavoidable loss so they can bring whatever they like. How many cycles do you think you'll get off when you're staring down the barrel of 5k DPS? In short: don't fit an active booster. It does. Not. Help. You.
Stop telling people that. I'm making my living selling them those boosters and I can honestly say, that investing in a deadspace booster is the best investment you can make with a mining vessel. In fact I'm confident there are some tasty limited time offers available in Jita right now. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9103
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:13:00 -
[262] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:Stop telling people that. Sorry. I forgot.
Please disregard my previous post. Revise statement as follows: your active booster does help. In fact, the more the better. Fit all midslots with small a-type boosters. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Yokai Mitsuhide
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
262
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:16:00 -
[263] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Destination SkillQueue wrote:Stop telling people that. Sorry. I forgot. Please disregard my previous post. Revise statement as follows: your active booster does help. In fact, the more the better. Fit all midslots with small a-type boosters.
Confirming this actually makes you unkillable. |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Elysian Empire
266
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:03:00 -
[264] - Quote
The "rebalance" of the mining barges is bad and turned out terribly imbalanced
who would have expected that
oh wait everyone |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9107
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:09:00 -
[265] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:The "rebalance" of the mining barges is bad and turned out terribly imbalanced What's imbalanced about it? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Zishy
Demon-War-Lords Fatal Ascension
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:12:00 -
[266] - Quote
Tippia wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:The "rebalance" of the mining barges is bad and turned out terribly imbalanced What's imbalanced about it?
whats imbalanced? (: sure an empire nap will never understand that :p
oh and btw shield boosters are required to tank ratspawns in nullsec. oh wait i remember you are not mining anywhere but empire. disregard that |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1690
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:27:00 -
[267] - Quote
You still haven't realized that there is nothing personal in this, although you still seem to believe you can project this onto me.
No use in talking to a robot who keeps trying to defend himself against an imaginary enemy, without the needed ability of having a conscious thought and thinking through what's being told.
You're just too blinded by your own hatred.
I hope you die often. o/ Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9108
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:48:00 -
[268] - Quote
Zishy wrote:whats imbalanced? So nothing, then, since you can't think of anything either and have to ask.
Quote:oh and btw shield boosters are required to tank ratspawns in nullsec. GǪand that's nice and all, but they're not going to protect you against other players GÇö the topic we're discussing here GÇö and they're completely useless for suicide ganks GÇö the context we're discussing those attacks in. Claiming that it will make any difference whatsoever against a HS catalyst gank (or against any kind of gank outside of HS) is beyond clueless. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:55:00 -
[269] - Quote
Andski wrote:Smohq Anmirorz wrote:Andski wrote:itt: people think that hisec ganking is supposed to be balanced across all sec bands by the cost of the ships involved When devs post stuff like "The money you paid for a ship to gank with compared to the money lost by your target was completely off", it sounds like cost IS being used to balance the game. And to a certain degree, they should continue to do so. tell me exactly how you can require x amount of isk to gank, say, a hulk
So you don't think the recent changes have made it so that it costs more to gank miners? Or you don't think the quote above suggests they are using cost to balance the game? |
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:01:00 -
[270] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote: I can honestly say, that investing in a deadspace booster is the best investment you can make with a mining vessel.
Back away from the keyboard, you don't know what you doing. |
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4362
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:29:00 -
[271] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:So you don't think the recent changes have made it so that it costs more to gank miners? Or you don't think the quote above suggests they are using cost to balance the game?
you /can't/ use cost to balance the game because nothing is balanced by cost
a Vindicator is not ten times better than a Megathron, despite costing ten times as much; a Hulk does not mine ten times better than a Covetor despite costing ten times as much. "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:32:00 -
[272] - Quote
Andski wrote:Smohq Anmirorz wrote:So you don't think the recent changes have made it so that it costs more to gank miners? Or you don't think the quote above suggests they are using cost to balance the game? you /can't/ use cost to balance the game because nothing is balanced by cost a Vindicator is not ten times better than a Megathron, despite costing ten times as much; a Hulk does not mine ten times better than a Covetor despite costing ten times as much.
Before you could gank a mac with one cat. Now you need 2-3. It COSTS more. They have balanced the game so that it costs more to gank. How is this not a cost-balancing effect? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9109
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:34:00 -
[273] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:So you don't think the recent changes have made it so that it costs more to gank miners? Or you don't think the quote above suggests they are using cost to balance the game? There's a reason he was basically called an idiot, if not in those exact terms, for making that sloppy statement. They've tried to use cost as a balancing factor once. We've been living with the never-ending problem of Titans ever sinceGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4362
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:34:00 -
[274] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:Before you could gank a mac with one cat. Now you need 2-3. It COSTS more. They have balanced the game so that it costs more to gank. How is this not a cost-balancing effect?
Put down the spreadsheet for a second and think "2-3 catalysts rather than one."
The increased ISK cost is irrelevant here - it's increased effort. "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:49:00 -
[275] - Quote
Read it however you want, the quote clearly shows that they are considering cost. "money you paid...compared to...money you lost", "numbers can still be adjusted".
I didn't say they're using cost to fine-tune those numbers, but they clearly have considered costs or he wouldn't have mentioned it. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1846
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:56:00 -
[276] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Zishy wrote:you have no ******* clue what you can fit on a ship do you? Sure I do. For instance, I know how to get a MSE on there, which does you a whole lot more good than an active booster. Quote:i have not lost a single hulk or mack yet - why? because i dont mine in ******* empire space. Then the booster is even more meaningless. They have no clock to fight against and your active tank is insignificant compared to the DPS they can bring, even if they choose to go after your main resists. There's also no unavoidable loss so they can bring whatever they like. How many cycles do you think you'll get off when you're staring down the barrel of 5k DPS? In short: don't fit an active booster. It does. Not. Help. You.
I suppose you have not mined in low or null sec?
Your buffer tank helps quite little against spawns, the ships die after 2 minutes. The deadspace shield boosters are one of the ways to perma rep those ships while before the escort kills the rats.
If hostiles land on you in low and zero sec, the buffer tank won't help very much anyway, there's not Concord to come within some seconds. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1846
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:08:00 -
[277] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Suddenly Boom wrote:The numbers don't lie, almost all orca mining groups are using macs, even group miners don't want the hulk. See for yourself all the orcas in the belts in these screens and the overwhelming mac dominance even in the presence of many orcas. You're missing a rather important column in those screen shots. There's nothing to suggest that any of those actually group mine. The numbers don't lie, but all they're showing is that people like the solo playstyle. This is not news. It doesn't contradict that the Hulk is a better mining ship and that it excels in fleets.
Actually Suddenly Boom is right.
The Hulk, despite the purposedly applied annoyances, would have fulfilled its purpose ***IF*** some high sec mechanic would actually made them defendable by the fleet they are meant to always have around.
There are NOBODY, even paid for it (I know, I have been in the miners protection mercs business) who will waste their life sitting close to some stupid Hulks all day long. There's an host of better and more fun and more paid stuff to do in EvE than that.
Even corpies after 2-3 weeks of that ordeal give up and just park a RR Domi or similar AFK repping the ships and go do something more fun.
So that leaves you with your 2-3 Hulks, you have to bring in YOUR AC Tornado alt to the belt and stare to the screen like an hawk for hours. So fun... almost nobody does it.
Mack comes very much close (any small delay in operation immediately kills the Hulk efficiency and delays over hours long operations happen. Even just moving belt / getting an empty roid kills efficiency.
So yes, Mack >>>>>> Hulk for fleets because it has no hassle at all, can always be used at peak efficiency, can always bring all the needed crystals, can get > 30k EHP before Orca buffs. You can easily reposition MAcks at distant roids with no logistics hassle and all of these advantages immediately and oppressively destroy Hulk viability, even in its own main job.
I have now tried all sorts of Hulk and Mack combos, both ice and belts and missions roids and the outcome is always the same: for the easily lost yield advantage (any mistake does that) you get every possible bad deal from the Hulk => not worth even for fleet. Even for a 3 corps fleet is still not worth it, actually it gets worse.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Ezra Tair
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
87
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:17:00 -
[278] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:
This guy spelled it out right here. With the hulk he has to drop the ore every 104 seconds, with the mack you can mine for a much longer period without worrying about ore overflow, you can have afk breaks. Over a long period a mac user will mine more than a hulk user because they can mine and relax at the same time, resulting in much longer mining sessions.
Solo yes. But its been pretty well presented that the point is to make the mack a better solo miner. The mack will not outmine the hulk when its not solo mining. The skiff will not outmine anything, with the possible exception of a mack over a long period of time if it has a hauler.
I've watched your posts, I'm not sure what you are up in arms about other than "Dem other people are enjoying the game and mining semi-afk" or "My hulk is not as good at solo mining as it once was"
Perhaps you should engage your energy to compel CCP to make mining more entertaining, so people afk less? And spend less of it pointing out the obvious. Because, given the track record, I don't think its going to change back. |
Sarton Wells
Blackmoon Ltd.
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:21:00 -
[279] - Quote
Since I don't have an easy way to calculate it what's the yield of a 30k EHP mack and that of a full yield hulk? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9112
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:22:00 -
[280] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I suppose you have not mined in low or null sec? I suppose that, like Zishy, you are not familiar with the word GÇ£contextGÇ¥. He offered it up as something that could not be ganked by Catalysts. In highsec, the shield booster is a bad choice because it doesn't help any more (and in fact much less) than an expander would; outside of highsec, it doesn't help at all.
Yes, you would need a booster if you're caught alone, but that's completely irrelevant to the kind of problem he incorrectly claimed it could solve. Either way, it only makes you an easier and more worth-while target and thinking that gankers would GÇ£cryGÇ¥ when coming across it is nothing but laughable.
Quote:The Hulk, despite the purposedly applied annoyances, would have fulfilled its purpose ***IF*** some high sec mechanic would actually made them defendable by the fleet they are meant to always have around. There are. ECM, logi, counter-ganking, mutual webbing, etc. etc. etc.
Quote:Actually Suddenly Boom is right. GǪexcept that his screen shots do not particularly support the claim he's making.
Quote:So yes, Mack >>>>>> Hulk for fleets because it has no hassle at all, can always be used at peak efficiency, can always bring all the needed crystals, can get > 30k EHP before Orca buffs. You can easily reposition MAcks at distant roids with no logistics hassle and all of these advantages immediately and oppressively destroy Hulk viability, even in its own main job. GǪand none of those are problematic for a well-sorted fleet to overcome. A fleet is not a goup of people solo-mining together GÇö it's a group where each person fills a slot and does a specific job. Again, that is what Zishy's picture show: people solo-mining together. If you do not intend to use a fleet properly then yes, a Mack will do a better job. This is by design. If you get your act together, then the supposed disadvantages of the Hulk become irrelevant and its advantages destroy all competition in terms of yield. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
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sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
313
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:28:00 -
[281] - Quote
A skiff gets close to an No MLU hulk, and seeing how untanked hulks are die when the wind picks up too quick, no one should fly them.
If you're Ice Mining in a fleet, and don't need the Ore Hold, use the Skiff, it can have Two IMU and the Mining rig, pulls more ice then a full tank hulk and has 80K EHP. I believe the cycle time on max skills with no implant is 58.7 seconds.
Hulks no buff was a major nerf to its usefulness. Happy I sold mine @ 300m before the patch. Only paid 120 for them 2 years ago.
If CCP's goal was too make all the barges useful, they need to check again cause only the stupid fly the hulk now. Or those looking for T2 Salvage opportunities and pretty fireworks. |
James 315
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2393
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:29:00 -
[282] - Quote
sYnc Vir wrote:If CCP's goal was too make all the barges useful, they need to check again cause only the stupid fly the hulk now. Excellent observation.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ MinerBumping.com -½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½The daily saga of one man's quest to bring civilization to highsec by bumping miners out of range. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1850
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:35:00 -
[283] - Quote
Tippia wrote:I suppose that, like Zishy, you are not familiar with the word GÇ£contextGÇ¥. He offered it up as something that could not be ganked by Catalysts. In highsec, the shield booster is a bad choice because it doesn't help any more (and in fact much less) than an expander would; outside of highsec, it doesn't help at all.
Yes, you would need a booster if you're caught alone, but that's completely irrelevant to the kind of problem he incorrectly claimed it could solve.
For some reason I immediately understood he's talking about 0.0. That's his context and he's teasing hi seccers in the same posts even when referring to catalysts (something he and you well know he won't see in 0.0 anyway). Now feel free to start your umpteenth tirade and hair splitting, but his post was just about that, not about your context and nothing you say will change that.
Tippia wrote: There are. ECM, logi, counter-ganking, mutual webbing, etc. etc. etc.
Once again you theorycraft and speak out pure on paper reality. You can count those fleets on the tip of one finger, which is the middle finger people show at you and Ruby Porto when you suggest theoretical garbage like mutual webbing and similar.
Tippia wrote: GǪand none of those are problematic for a well-sorted fleet to overcome. A fleet is not a goup of people solo-mining together GÇö it's a group where each person fills a slot and does a specific job. Again, that is what Zishy's picture show: people solo-mining together. If you do not intend to use a fleet properly then yes, a Mack will do a better job. This is by design. If you get your act together, then the supposed disadvantages of the Hulk become irrelevant and its advantages destroy all competition in terms of yield.
A fleet is formed by GAMERS (not serious RL logistics nutjobs) who want to do X to achieve Y. As of now the :effort: of using Hulks vs the meager reward completely skews their viability. And most of all, cost vs zero survivability even when guarded. Also, for being a fleet ship, Hulks are the ship that gets the worst from Orca buffs, that's so much fail right in that. At least they should have made an Hulk unique Orca buff 130% multiplier just to make Hulks benefit as much as the other ships do in absolute tank terms.
It's days I only and exclusively find: Macks, Retrievers (even more than Macks!) - glad my BPOs are churning them out in droves, some procurers and a rare Skiff. There are some Hulks some times but they are old relics waiting to get popped (Hulks are what gankers ATM go after, they are the bright shining white flea) or going to be used outside belts.
You can paper-pretend all day long, Macks are the new king. Unlike others, I don't complain as I am getting even more money than I thought I'd stop doing at patch speculation day AND I actually love those ships so much I am tempted to mine again myself.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2351
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:38:00 -
[284] - Quote
Errrm, one would think it's rather evident that the numbers of Hulks would decrease significantly in high sec in favor of the Mac or Skiff... most likely the Mac because greed is more motivating than lazy.
The intent was for Hulks to see more use in Null Sec where it is much easier to see the enemy coming from several systems away and get the Hulk fleet to safety.
I don't see why people are surprised Mac's have gained popularity in high sec while the Hulks has declined... as this is exactly what was intended.
Go out to Null, if you can find a mining fleet that hasn't dispersed by the time you get into system you'll likely find that (aside from the odd solo miner out there) that the majority are in Hulks with a proper mining fleet. Primarily because, in typical blue space Null Sec conditions, there is zero reason to use a Mac over the Hulk unless you are mining solo. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9112
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:43:00 -
[285] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:For some reason I immediately understood he's talking about 0.0. GǪmeaning his comment was both off-topic and full of bad advice. He was just flat-out wrong.
Quote:Once again you theorycraft and speak out pure on paper reality. You can count those fleets on the tip of one finger That's their problem. It doesn't mean the means and mechanics are not there GÇö it means they are not willing to use them and claiming that nothing exist is ignorant.
Quote:A fleet is formed by GAMERS (not serious RL logistics nutjobs) who want to do X to achieve Y. As of now the :effort: of using Hulks vs the meager reward completely skews their viability. And most of all, cost vs zero survivability even when guarded. Yes. And the effort pays off. A tiny bit of effort will also give them far more than zero survivability. The purpose of the Hulk is to achieve maximum yield. It does exactly that when supported by a fleet. If you GÇ£YGÇ¥ is something else than GÇ£get the most mineralsGÇ¥ then yes, the Hulk might not be the right choice. This is by design.
Quote:Also, for being a fleet ship, Hulks are the ship that gets the worst from Orca buffs They get the same buffs everyone else gets.
Quote:It's days I only and exclusively find: Macks, Retrievers (even more than Macks!) Yes? And? People like to solo mine. Macks and Retrievers are the solo mining ships. What's the problem? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1852
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 20:16:00 -
[286] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪmeaning his comment was both off-topic and full of bad advice. He was just flat-out wrong.
Forgot you are the resident forum mod, deciding what the others can and cannot post. Oh wait, you usually derail everything with your overblown hair splitting turning a 5 pages thread in a 20 pages likes farming nitpick-naught.
Tippia wrote: That's their problem. It doesn't mean the means and mechanics are not there GÇö it means they are not willing to use them and claiming that nothing exist is ignorant.
The world is full of means and mechanics... that get ignored because they are not worth it. Current Hulk - as stated since weeks now - is one of them.
Tippia wrote: Yes. And the effort pays off. A tiny bit of effort will also give them far more than zero survivability. The purpose of the Hulk is to achieve maximum yield. It does exactly that when supported by a fleet. If you GÇ£YGÇ¥ is something else than GÇ£get the most mineralsGÇ¥ then yes, the Hulk might not be the right choice. This is by design.
"Tiny bit of effort"... tiny enough that nobody bothers and Hulks now are deep blueball 0.0 material. But hey, I suppose if you try hard enough you may demostrate the sky is pink too.
Tippia wrote:Yes? And? People like to solo mine. Macks and Retrievers are the solo mining ships. What's the problem?
I don't see a problem (see? I also go off topic, sue me). But I do see how Hulks are seriously not worth it even for fleets. When something is relegated to small scale (notice the contradiction of intended usage) L4 mission mining or blue ball sov 0.0 it means that it's now a super small niche feature.
I did not miss the Tiericide plan of making all ships flown (not totally equally but still...). Did you?
Because now Hulk is the new Procurer. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Sarton Wells
Blackmoon Ltd.
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 20:26:00 -
[287] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:"Tiny bit of effort"... tiny enough that nobody bothers and Hulks now are deep blueball 0.0 material.
And that's what they were designed to be. "Glass cannons" for roid munching.
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Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 20:35:00 -
[288] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Because now Hulk is the new Procurer.
If you truly think that then you shouldn't be flying a mining ship, because you obviously don't know what the hell you're doing.
The old Procurer was truly worthless: tank-less, hold-starved, and it could be outmined by an Osprey. Its only value was as a hull for the Skiff. (The new Procuerer? Pure awesomesauce. Cheap, too!) The new Hulk is still the king of yield, and if you're using a Mack instead of a Hulk in a fleet, you're leaving about 20% of your yield on the table because you're too lazy to use the right ship for the op. If you're a solo miner or a dual-boxer, then the new Hulk isn't intended to be your ship -- that's what the Retriever/Mackinaw is for. And those ships are awesome in that role; I still can't believe the whining from people who ought to be crazed with glee.
The Hulk was badly overpowered before the patch; there was no point in flying any other mining vessel if you could fly a Hulk. That's no longer true...and that's a good thing. Smart miners will figure out ways to leverage all the hulls now instead of just defaulting to the Hulk all the time. This helps the EVE economy in a lot of ways (miners profit, ship-builders profit, traders profit, and gankers will profit once they figure out a counter to all the Macks now inhabiting the belts of hisec.)
This patch has just convinced me all over again that mining in EVE is the one trade that benefits most from the ability to do math, yet draws people who have no ability to actually do math.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1852
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 20:38:00 -
[289] - Quote
Sarton Wells wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:"Tiny bit of effort"... tiny enough that nobody bothers and Hulks now are deep blueball 0.0 material. And that's what they were designed to be. "Glass cannons" for roid munching.
That kind of goes against the whole "tiericide" CCP project.
Care to demonstrate how replacing the One King To Rule Them All with another goes along with tiericide?I can foresee a majority going for the Mack but it should be 60% not 90% (then 7% Skiffs). Ofc the numbers are taken out of my ass but they quite describe what's easily visible in both ice and roid belts in The Forge and around Rens. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Sarton Wells
Blackmoon Ltd.
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 20:45:00 -
[290] - Quote
The hulk was better than every other mining ship in every single way (except ice mining perhaps). The current mackinaw is not better than any other ship in every single way. Actually it's not better in any way. It's a ship for compromises. Which happens to fit what the solo afk miner likes to do.
The tiercide was not meant to make all the ships equally used. It was meant to create roles for every ship. And that's what it has done. |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1852
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 20:55:00 -
[291] - Quote
Sarton Wells wrote:The hulk was better than every other mining ship in every single way (except ice mining perhaps). The current mackinaw is not better than any other ship in every single way. Actually it's not better in any way. It's a ship for compromises. Which happens to fit what the solo afk miner likes to do.
The tiercide was not meant to make all the ships equally used. It was meant to create roles for every ship. And that's what it has done.
Of course, after all we have those T2 battleships that are so fitting a role and... wait, there are more titans than T2 battleships (so a dev blog said).
So, making all ships get a role is one step but making them played is good game design.
CCP should rethink their game design before the go ahead with further Tiericide else it'll be just the same fail we have today, just with different ships being neglected and others being the king. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4464
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 20:59:00 -
[292] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Sarton Wells wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:"Tiny bit of effort"... tiny enough that nobody bothers and Hulks now are deep blueball 0.0 material. And that's what they were designed to be. "Glass cannons" for roid munching. That kind of goes against the whole "tiericide" CCP project. Care to demonstrate how replacing the One King To Rule Them All with another goes along with tiericide?I can foresee a majority going for the Mack but it should be 60% not 90% (then 7% Skiffs). Ofc the numbers are taken out of my ass but they quite describe what's easily visible in both ice and roid belts in The Forge and around Rens.
What are the percentages in 0.0? Since you speak so definitely, I assume you are in possession of those statistics? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Sarton Wells
Blackmoon Ltd.
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 21:04:00 -
[293] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Sarton Wells wrote:The hulk was better than every other mining ship in every single way (except ice mining perhaps). The current mackinaw is not better than any other ship in every single way. Actually it's not better in any way. It's a ship for compromises. Which happens to fit what the solo afk miner likes to do.
The tiercide was not meant to make all the ships equally used. It was meant to create roles for every ship. And that's what it has done. Of course, after all we have those T2 battleships that are so fitting a role and... wait, there are more titans than T2 battleships (so a dev blog said). So, making all ships get a role is one step but making them played is good game design. CCP should rethink their game design before the go ahead with further Tiericide else it'll be just the same fail we have today, just with different ships being neglected and others being the king.
The difference being that the hulk is useful and the t2 battleships - not so much. For example I'm still solo mining with a covetor. For my play-style it gives me better isk/hr than a retriever. So why should I be using a retriever? That's not the case with black ops (I assume you meant them since the marauders are quite common). |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9115
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 21:15:00 -
[294] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Forgot you are the resident forum mod, deciding what the others can and cannot post. Good thing that I said nothing of the kind. I'm merely stating the fact that while everyone is talking about suicide ganks, he steps up with a nonsensical fit and claims that it is enough to protect against a catalyst gankGǪ and when called on it tries to get away by discussing a completely different and completely irrelevant scenario.
Quote:The world is full of means and mechanics... GǪso don't be dishonest by claiming that there are none.
Quote:"Tiny bit of effort"... tiny enough that nobody bothers and Hulks now are deep blueball 0.0 material. Tough. Miners are apparently a lazy bunchGǪ who'd'a thunk it? Again, it's no surprise that people who have consistently shown a preference for solo and AFK work has a matching preference for the solo and AFK ship.
Quote:I don't see a problem (see? I also go off topic, sue me). But I do see how Hulks are seriously not worth it even for fleets. They're worth it because they can squeeze out that much more ore in the time available. If you've never found yourself in a situation where time is a factor, then good for you. vOv
Quote:That kind of goes against the whole "tiericide" CCP project. No, it really doesn't. It's fully in line with tiercide: they are to mining ships what tier-3 BCs introduced to that class of ships GÇö more oomph at the cost of almost everything else. Glass cannon is an excellent parallel and it shows perfectly with the idea that each ship has its own role and speciality. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1852
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 21:52:00 -
[295] - Quote
Tippia wrote:I'm merely stating the fact that while everyone is talking about suicide ganks, he steps up with a nonsensical fit and claims that it is enough to protect against a catalyst gankGǪ and when called on it tries to get away by discussing a completely different and completely irrelevant scenario.
Playing forum sheriff is not your business. The other readers can make their own opinion about him without you showing them the light.
Tippia wrote:so don't be dishonest by claiming that there are none.
Close to useless tends to none.
Tippia wrote:Again, it's no surprise that people who have consistently shown a preference for solo and AFK work has a matching preference for the solo and AFK ship.
It's not about AFK work. Its about "CBA to bother with menial tasks done through a laggy and terrible UI (you should know about it, eh?) to get somehow better yield". My industry alt has been CEO in an industry corp (Minerva) that peaked at 50 members, all involved in mining operations both in hi and 0.0 sec. Just in May I was having multi-corp mining ops with 2 other corps. I am a sample of a mining op because I have done and organized it in practice and if I tell you that Hulks are NOT worth the hassle maybe it's because it's true. The crystal menial task per se would not be so bad if it did not also add to a number of other purposedly imposed hassles. Try, just TRY to defend a wet paper fleet against motivated gankers. I have seen how it goes, the only place where Hulks may still be used is strong sov 0.0. But wait, I did not read that Tiericide = one ship class now is relegated to strong sov 0.0. On paper you can pretend to do the fleet thingy in hi sec but hey, even the same friends who ALWAYS used Hulks now all replaced them with Macks.
Are everybody who don't conform to your theories "soloers" now?
Tippia wrote:No, it really doesn't. It's fully in line with tiercide: they are to mining ships what tier-3 BCs introduced to that class of ships GÇö more oomph at the cost of almost everything else. Glass cannon is an excellent parallel and it shows perfectly with the idea that each ship has its own role and speciality.
Of course I also have Tier 3 BCs BPOs so maybe I tested them?
Tier 3 BCs have this thing: they effing shine at their purpose. Hulks don't shine. They crawl above the others and only in very situational "all stars aligned" situations.
I suppose your idea of Tiericide on BCs will involve making a Tornado alpha 15% more than a Cyclone right? And when they will fail you'll tell it's just intended?
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 22:37:00 -
[296] - Quote
edit |
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
211
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 00:17:00 -
[297] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:Urgg Boolean wrote: Skiff : L4 Recon 3 - the ONLY ship I know of that has decent speed and can tank the poison clouds then harvest all that juicy ore on the far side. This is the ONLY way to make L4 Recon 3 actually pay. If any corp member gets L4 Recon 3, we fleet up and run it with three Skiffs.
Any ship can get past the clouds. Timing. Well, I'm talking about making L4 Recon 3 actually pay. Yeah, you can run it with a lot of ships, but which of the ships that can make the crossing can ALSO effectively harvest the ore? The missions pays by rapidly munching rocks at the end.
You say ANY SHIP can make it. If you are suggesting that a Hulk can make the run, post an un-photo-shopped screen snap and I'll gladly eat my words. |
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 00:58:00 -
[298] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:Smohq Anmirorz wrote:Urgg Boolean wrote: Skiff : L4 Recon 3 - the ONLY ship I know of that has decent speed and can tank the poison clouds then harvest all that juicy ore on the far side. This is the ONLY way to make L4 Recon 3 actually pay. If any corp member gets L4 Recon 3, we fleet up and run it with three Skiffs.
Any ship can get past the clouds. Timing. Well, I'm talking about making L4 Recon 3 actually pay. Yeah, you can run it with a lot of ships, but which of the ships that can make the crossing can ALSO effectively harvest the ore? The missions pays by rapidly munching rocks at the end. You say ANY SHIP can make it. If you are suggesting that a Hulk can make the run, post an un-photo-shopped screen snap and I'll gladly eat my words.
I'm saying a shuttle can do it. One ship warps in, tanks the waves, the other warps in just as they're done. They won't reset right away. You're going to get a lvl 4 recon much faster than I will right now, try it out, you'll figure it out. :) |
Sarton Wells
Blackmoon Ltd.
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 03:49:00 -
[299] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I suppose your idea of Tiericide on BCs will involve making a Tornado alpha 15% more than a Cyclone right? In exchange of some asinine UI titillating of course. And when they will fail you'll tell it's just intended?
Actually 15% is quite huge when you start multiplying it by every hulk in a fleet. Let's say corp A uses 10 mackinaws with full fleet boosters etc. They can mine (in theory) about 750-800k m3 per hour. If they're mining arkonor that means about 230m isk per hour. On the other hand corp B is using 10 hulks and they're mining about 1150-1200k m3 per hour. Which translate to about 360m isk per hour. Tell me again why the hulk isn't worth it.
P.s. Those numbers were pulled from the eve isk per hour calculator. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1863
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 05:26:00 -
[300] - Quote
Sarton Wells wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I suppose your idea of Tiericide on BCs will involve making a Tornado alpha 15% more than a Cyclone right? In exchange of some asinine UI titillating of course. And when they will fail you'll tell it's just intended? Actually 15% is quite huge when you start multiplying it by every hulk in a fleet. Let's say corp A uses 10 mackinaws with full fleet boosters etc. They can mine (in theory) about 1000k m3 per hour. If they're mining arkonor that means about 350m isk per hour. On the other hand corp B is using 10 hulks and they're mining about 1150-1200k m3 per hour. Which translate to about 410m isk per hour. Tell me again why the hulk isn't worth it. P.s. Those numbers were pulled from the eve isk per hour calculator. Edit: Disregard the m3 per hour. Forgot to account for the reduced cycle times >< Isk per hour should be accurate though.
The problem with "EFT" (or, in this case IPH) theorycrafting is that you get the same kind of information you get when you read new cars reviews.
The manufacturer will tell his car runs 100km with 5 liters, but when you actually buy the car and start using it you find out it uses 6 and not 5. Because 5 was measured at perfect conditions, perfect weather, in a perfectly levelled and straight track, with a 70 kg pilot and nobody else, no baggage...
Hulk too sells with those numbers, then all it takes is a pair of empty-ish roids, 2 crystals to change (having 3, it will happen more often than the othe ships), the "crystals servant" delaying a bit, a need to move 2-3 km to fetch the next roids... and immediately the peak performance plummets into Mack range, while all the annoying drawbacks (beginning with the no survivability for achieving that max yield) are still all there. Mack instead is much more lenient so in no way its numbers would drop down to say Skiff levels. Even when moving, no problem, with all that cargo 2-3 km won't be any trouble. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Sarton Wells
Blackmoon Ltd.
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 06:02:00 -
[301] - Quote
Those same annoyances apply to the mackinaw as well. Though I agree that a "real world" test would be the best comparison between the two. I'd love to see someone doing it :) |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1864
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 07:13:00 -
[302] - Quote
Sarton Wells wrote:Those same annoyances apply to the mackinaw as well. Though I agree that a "real world" test would be the best comparison between the two. I'd love to see someone doing it :)
Well I have both Retrievers, Macks and Hulks. As for annoyances the Macks deal with them in the smoothest way of the bunch. I can even loot the NPCs mods without getting cargo issues (expecially faction NPCs are always a good plus to loot). Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2353
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:24:00 -
[303] - Quote
Quote:My industry alt has been CEO in an industry corp (Minerva) that peaked at 50 members, all involved in mining operations both in hi and 0.0 sec. Just in May I was having multi-corp mining ops with 2 other corps. I am a sample of a mining op because I have done and organized it in practice and if I tell you that Hulks are NOT worth the hassle maybe it's because it's true. The crystal menial task per se would not be so bad if it did not also add to a number of other purposedly imposed hassles. Try, just TRY to defend a wet paper fleet against motivated gankers. I have seen how it goes, the only place where Hulks may still be used is strong sov 0.0. But wait, I did not read that Tiericide = one ship class now is relegated to strong sov 0.0. On paper you can pretend to do the fleet thingy in hi sec but hey, even the same friends who ALWAYS used Hulks now all replaced them with Macks.
Are everybody who don't conform to your theories "soloers" now?
I have organized and run protection on many a 0.0 mining operation. The current Hulk is by far and away the best tool for the job.
You keep switching tracks mentally and looking at this from a High Sec mining fleet perspective, and the Hulk is not ideal for this task. Whether you like it personally or not, this is by design.
Tiericide is intended to provide actual roles for the various ships to perform and see use in, as opposed to the former system of one ship clearly invalidating all other ships in it's class because it is the best at everything.
With mining vessels they have executed this plan quite precisely.
To be frank, nobody cares if the Hulk isn't used much in High Sec, it's role has been gear specifically to a fleet environment that can be secured... which is only likely to happen in 0.0.... and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We have many ships in game that are designed to either only function fully (or to their best advantage) in 0.0, just as there are ships in common usage in high sec that are not really practical for use in null compared to other options.
Each mining ship now has advantages and disadvantages that give them appeal to differing groups. If your group doesn't need them you should really stop to realize that another group does.
At this point CCP will likely wait and watch the metrics on this. If the Hulk turns out to in fact be underused they can tweak it at a later date. Either way, it's no skin off your nose. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9134
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:51:00 -
[304] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Playing forum sheriff is not your business. Good thing, then, that I'm not doing that. I'm merely stating the fact that while everyone is talking about suicide ganks, he steps up with a nonsensical fit and claims that it is enough to protect against a catalyst gankGǪ and when called on it tries to get away by discussing a completely different and completely irrelevant scenario.
Quote:Close to useless tends to none. Good thing, then, that they're not useless and tend to be quite plentiful.
Quote:It's not about AFK work. You've never actually paid attention to any of the miner threads, have you? Of course AFK work is a factor GÇö the miners themselves say so.
Quote:But wait, I did not read that Tiericide = one ship class now is relegated to strong sov 0.0. GǪand no ship is. Tiercide = every ship has its specific role rather than just be +1 to the previous model. The role of the Hulk is one that does not correspond to how your average highsec miner goes about his business. It still performs to spec and its purpose is well served by its design.
Quote:Tier 3 BCs have this thing: they effing shine at their purpose. GǪas do Hulks, and using very similar trade-offs. The Tier-3s are much stronger given the right circumstances but are a fair bit weaker at all times. This is much the same as the relationship you're complaining about for Hulks, only the ratios are switched around. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 17:21:00 -
[305] - Quote
Tippia wrote:But wait, I did not read that Tiericide = one ship class now is relegated to strong sov 0.0. GǪand no ship is. Fancy that. Tiercide = every ship has its specific role rather than just be +1 to the previous model. The role of the Hulk is one that does not correspond to how your average highsec miner goes about his business. It still performs to spec and its purpose is well served by its design.[/quote]
It's not just supposed to have a role, it's supposed to have an appealing role. Not many people seem to find it appealing.
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Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 17:43:00 -
[306] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:Tippia wrote:But wait, I did not read that Tiericide = one ship class now is relegated to strong sov 0.0. GǪand no ship is. Fancy that. Tiercide = every ship has its specific role rather than just be +1 to the previous model. The role of the Hulk is one that does not correspond to how your average highsec miner goes about his business. It still performs to spec and its purpose is well served by its design.
It's not just supposed to have a role, it's supposed to have an appealing role. Not many people seem to find it appealing. [/quote]
It's still pretty early to be making a statement like that.
Hisec miners, being a lazy bunch (and I include myself in that list), simply replaced Hulks with Macks in a 1-for-1 exchange. In some cases (solo mining or dual-boxing with an alt) this might make sense. It takes more forethought and logi support to make the Hulk shine, but I can verify that even for a dual-boxer a Hulk provides a better ISK/hr return than a Mack does if you plan your op right.
The Covetor/Hulk is meant for fleet ops. Hisec miners don't generally participate in big mining fleets -- though they should, at least once in a while -- but lots of people in 0.0 do, and I expect that's where the new Hulk will really come into its own.
"Appealing" is in the eye of the beholder (or the Retriever, you might say).
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1864
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 17:52:00 -
[307] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:
The Covetor/Hulk is meant for fleet ops. Hisec miners don't generally participate in big mining fleets -- though they should, at least once in a while -- but lots of people in 0.0 do, and I expect that's where the new Hulk will really come into its own.
"Appealing" is in the eye of the beholder (or the Retriever, you might say).
I have been in 15-30 ships ops. They might not be a blob but they should be "enough" to see this famous Hulk shine.
But it does not, even with no gankers around.
What I can see is some null seccers who suffer a butthurt complex and want to grab and design and hold the best mining ship only for themselves as revenge over the untold unfairness of hi sec.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Sarton Wells
Blackmoon Ltd.
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 17:53:00 -
[308] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote: It takes more forethought and logi support to make the Hulk shine, but I can verify that even for a dual-boxer a Hulk provides a better ISK/hr return than a Mack does if you plan your op right.
Absolutely. Although I'm using a covetor rather than a hulk (although with the current price drop I might take the risk and buy a hulk) dual-boxing with an iteron mk5 for hauling gives me a significant increase compared to a retriever. But I'm only mining casually so I don't have personal experience on the differences when it comes to a full-blown mining op. |
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:01:00 -
[309] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:
It's still pretty early to be making a statement like that.
Hisec miners, being a lazy bunch (and I include myself in that list), simply replaced Hulks with Macks in a 1-for-1 exchange. In some cases (solo mining or dual-boxing with an alt) this might make sense. It takes more forethought and logi support to make the Hulk shine, but I can verify that even for a dual-boxer a Hulk provides a better ISK/hr return than a Mack does if you plan your op right.
The Covetor/Hulk is meant for fleet ops. Hisec miners don't generally participate in big mining fleets -- though they should, at least once in a while -- but lots of people in 0.0 do, and I expect that's where the new Hulk will really come into its own.
"Appealing" is in the eye of the beholder (or the Retriever, you might say).
There are plenty of orcas in the ice belts and no accompanying hulks. So I feel comfortable saying that it does not seem to have an appealing role. It CAN provide better ISK, but apparently not enough to appeal to anyone to fly one. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1864
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:05:00 -
[310] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Good thing, then, that I'm not doing that.
For me you are.
Tippia wrote:But wait, I did not read that Tiericide = one ship class now is relegated to strong sov 0.0. GǪand no ship is. Fancy that. Tiercide = every ship has its specific role rather than just be +1 to the previous model. The role of the Hulk is one that does not correspond to how your average highsec miner goes about his business. It still performs to spec and its purpose is well served by its design. [/quote]
We'll see when some offical CCP statistics will come up. As of now the only "spec and purpose" which its design well serves is to be the mainstay 0.0 large RMT blueball botter operation. Secluded in their dead end system grinding top ISK per hour.
Tippia wrote:Tier 3 BCs have this thing: they effing shine at their purpose. GǪas do Hulks, and using very similar trade-offs. The Tier-3s are much stronger given the right circumstances but are a fair bit weaker at all times. This is much the same as the relationship you're complaining about for Hulks, only the ratios are switched around.[/quote]
I don't see any trade off in a BC meant to blow stuff and die fast. The trade offs (low tank, low tracking) are irrelevant, since concord is not tankable anyway and the targets have massive signatures.
Hulks on the other side have meaningful game play affecting trade offs. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1864
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:06:00 -
[311] - Quote
Sarton Wells wrote:Idris Helion wrote: It takes more forethought and logi support to make the Hulk shine, but I can verify that even for a dual-boxer a Hulk provides a better ISK/hr return than a Mack does if you plan your op right. Absolutely. Although I'm using a covetor rather than a hulk (although with the current price drop I might take the risk and buy a hulk) dual-boxing with an iteron mk5 for hauling gives me a significant increase compared to a retriever. But I'm only mining casually so I don't have personal experience on the differences when it comes to a full-blown mining op.
You are the best ganker friend. When they see some white fly Hulk in a belt they know where to go next. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:07:00 -
[312] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:Idris Helion wrote:
It's still pretty early to be making a statement like that.
Hisec miners, being a lazy bunch (and I include myself in that list), simply replaced Hulks with Macks in a 1-for-1 exchange. In some cases (solo mining or dual-boxing with an alt) this might make sense. It takes more forethought and logi support to make the Hulk shine, but I can verify that even for a dual-boxer a Hulk provides a better ISK/hr return than a Mack does if you plan your op right.
The Covetor/Hulk is meant for fleet ops. Hisec miners don't generally participate in big mining fleets -- though they should, at least once in a while -- but lots of people in 0.0 do, and I expect that's where the new Hulk will really come into its own.
"Appealing" is in the eye of the beholder (or the Retriever, you might say).
There are plenty of orcas in the ice belts and no accompanying hulks. So I feel comfortable saying that it does not seem to have an appealing role. It CAN provide better ISK, but apparently not enough to appeal to anyone to fly one.
Hey, lazy miners have been a fixture in EVE since Day 1. Like I said: it's a career that rewards the ability to do math, but seems to draw people who have no ability to do math. If you can't be bothered to pick up all that ISK you're leaving on the table by using an inefficient approach, I'm not going to feel much pity for the "Hulk nerf" whining. |
Sarton Wells
Blackmoon Ltd.
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:11:00 -
[313] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Sarton Wells wrote:Idris Helion wrote: It takes more forethought and logi support to make the Hulk shine, but I can verify that even for a dual-boxer a Hulk provides a better ISK/hr return than a Mack does if you plan your op right. Absolutely. Although I'm using a covetor rather than a hulk (although with the current price drop I might take the risk and buy a hulk) dual-boxing with an iteron mk5 for hauling gives me a significant increase compared to a retriever. But I'm only mining casually so I don't have personal experience on the differences when it comes to a full-blown mining op. You are the best ganker friend. When they see some white fly Hulk in a belt they know where to go next.
Never said I was mining in a belt :P |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1864
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:15:00 -
[314] - Quote
Sarton Wells wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Sarton Wells wrote:Idris Helion wrote: It takes more forethought and logi support to make the Hulk shine, but I can verify that even for a dual-boxer a Hulk provides a better ISK/hr return than a Mack does if you plan your op right. Absolutely. Although I'm using a covetor rather than a hulk (although with the current price drop I might take the risk and buy a hulk) dual-boxing with an iteron mk5 for hauling gives me a significant increase compared to a retriever. But I'm only mining casually so I don't have personal experience on the differences when it comes to a full-blown mining op. You are the best ganker friend. When they see some white fly Hulk in a belt they know where to go next. Never said I was mining in a belt :P
Good.
I have extensively tested the Hulk in missions too, but besides a minority where roids are all cluster together, the travel times and the small-ish size of the roids both nullify the Hulk yield advantage and make crystals wear down quicker (3 instead of 2) than using another ship. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Sarton Wells
Blackmoon Ltd.
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:22:00 -
[315] - Quote
Actually all missions that are worth mining have roids spread like a belt. So you'll always have a roid in range and by the time the cycle finishes you'll be near it and have the next roid in range. The cargo hold of the mackinaw/retriever though is worthless since you're pretty much obligated to jetcan because of the usually long distances between the roids and the entry point. Which is why I'm using a noctis to gather the jetcans and the iteron to haul the ore. Otherwise it would take ages to get back to the roids with the barge/exhumer. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1864
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:34:00 -
[316] - Quote
Sarton Wells wrote:Actually all missions that are worth mining have roids spread like a belt. So you'll always have a roid in range and by the time the cycle finishes you'll be near it and have the next roid in range. The cargo hold of the mackinaw/retriever though is worthless since you're pretty much obligated to jetcan because of the usually long distances between the roids and the entry point. Which is why I'm using a noctis to gather the jetcans and the iteron to haul the ore. Otherwise it would take ages to get back to the roids with the barge/exhumer.
With a Mack you can do multiple roids. With some good play you can make so that when it's almost full it's also at the closest distance to the hauler (which in my case is an Orca). With other mining ships instead, you have to litter the pocket with cans and you cannot time the cans to appear closest to the tractor + hauler. This becomes expecially important in case you get ninjas in the mission. Flipping a ship able to keep the minerals inside for 20 minutes is totally more boring and harder than one that needs to expel cans every 2 cycles. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Sarton Wells
Blackmoon Ltd.
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:46:00 -
[317] - Quote
You're only limited by the range of the miners. With the hulk you can do three roids at the same time (if there are three in range) while with the mack you can do two. Which alleviates the problem of the roids being smaller size and wasting cycles. The only time the mackinaw would be better suited is if there are always exactly two roids in range. And the pocket being full of cans isn't much of a bother. For a 2 hour mining session it takes me 5-6 minutes to gather and haul all the cans. True it would be bad if a player enters the mission site but in that case you'll have to abandon the mission anyway. |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
32
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:51:00 -
[318] - Quote
Sarton Wells wrote:Actually all missions that are worth mining have roids spread like a belt. So you'll always have a roid in range and by the time the cycle finishes you'll be near it and have the next roid in range. The cargo hold of the mackinaw/retriever though is worthless since you're pretty much obligated to jetcan because of the usually long distances between the roids and the entry point. Which is why I'm using a noctis to gather the jetcans and the iteron to haul the ore. Otherwise it would take ages to get back to the roids with the barge/exhumer.
An Orca's tractor beam is a great help if you have to scatter a lot of jetcans through a belt. Yes, you have to keep your Orca positioned close enough to tractor the cans in, but unless you're in a really spread-out belt, that's not too hard to do. (Actually, the same thing goes for haulers -- all my haulers mount a tractor in the high so I don't have to run around as much.)
|
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:52:00 -
[319] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Sarton Wells wrote:Actually all missions that are worth mining have roids spread like a belt. So you'll always have a roid in range and by the time the cycle finishes you'll be near it and have the next roid in range. The cargo hold of the mackinaw/retriever though is worthless since you're pretty much obligated to jetcan because of the usually long distances between the roids and the entry point. Which is why I'm using a noctis to gather the jetcans and the iteron to haul the ore. Otherwise it would take ages to get back to the roids with the barge/exhumer. With a Mack you can do multiple roids. With some good play you can make so that when it's almost full it's also at the closest distance to the hauler (which in my case is an Orca). With other mining ships instead, you have to litter the pocket with cans and you cannot time the cans to appear closest to the tractor + hauler. This becomes expecially important in case you get ninjas in the mission. Flipping a ship able to keep the minerals inside for 20 minutes is totally more boring and harder than one that needs to expel cans every 2 cycles.
Ninjas in the mission? *sigh*
I don't get ninjas. I get combat scanner probes on my d-scan. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:57:00 -
[320] - Quote
Lame and somewhat inacurrate title. The Mack actually does not mine as fast for ice as it used to. The Hulk still out performs the mack based on yield. The size of the Mack ore hold makes it nice for solo mining; it's not invinicible the tank is still within reach of many ganks.. and what's more, miners still don't tank like survival is job one....
I find the Mack nice.. but not royal. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
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Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
32
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:13:00 -
[321] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:Lame and somewhat inacurrate title. The Mack actually does not mine as fast for ice as it used to. The Hulk still out performs the mack based on yield. The size of the Mack ore hold makes it nice for solo mining; it's not invinicible the tank is still within reach of many ganks.. and what's more, miners still don't tank like survival is job one....
I find the Mack nice.. but not royal.
Yup. Pretty soon the gankers are going to come up with a loadout that kills paper-tanked Macks the way they used to take out paper-tanked Hulks, and that'll be the end of the love-affair with the Mack for a lot of people.
More tank, less gank, kids.
|
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance Dark Empire Alliance
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:15:00 -
[322] - Quote
Tigress Tionese wrote:Tippia wrote:Suddenly Boom wrote:Unless you're using that industrial ship to haul ore from the belt, which is more its primary use. Its primary use is to haul stuff all over the place. It does that far better than the Mack can ever wish for. The one minor use-case of hauling ore from a belt to a station is still there for group mining efforts for much the same reason: because an industrial can be made to haul more and can be far more flexible in terms of what it carries (eg. all those mining crystals that Hulk users have been whinging about). All the Mack does is allow you to stay in the belt for longer before returning to station, and in that scenario, no hauler is involved to begin with so nothing has been replaced. If you intend never to leave the belt to begin with, then you still need that indy since it does the job far better. Claiming that the every-day haulers is losing its role as an every-day hauler to a ship that cannot actually haul stuff is downright silly. As a point of comparison, a Mack can bring just over 1M units of trit to the market; a mega-haul Itty V can bring nearly 4MGǪ or 86M units if you employ a bit of compression. For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore. The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. If you really want a dedicated hauler anyway, just use another Mackinkaw, it can mine between hauling sessions. If you're going to do that though you may aswell just use each miner as its own hauler anyway. God, this is so dumb.
I replaced my haulers with an Orca a long time ago. I use haulers to haul "stuff" not ore and certainly not minerals. So I dont really see the problem here. |
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:17:00 -
[323] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:Lame and somewhat inacurrate title. The Mack actually does not mine as fast for ice as it used to. The Hulk still out performs the mack based on yield. The size of the Mack ore hold makes it nice for solo mining; it's not invinicible the tank is still within reach of many ganks.. and what's more, miners still don't tank like survival is job one....
I find the Mack nice.. but not royal. Yup. Pretty soon the gankers are going to come up with a loadout that kills paper-tanked Macks the way they used to take out paper-tanked Hulks, and that'll be the end of the love-affair with the Mack for a lot of people. More tank, less gank, kids.
There's no such loadout, only teams of 4 max dps catas. You can't improve the loadout, you can only increase the number of gankers it requires to counter the HP, which is 4 max dps catas vs a decent mack tank. |
Arkturus McFadden
Sonoran Shadow Black Mesa Complex
196
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:17:00 -
[324] - Quote
You can still suicide gank it. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
278
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:40:00 -
[325] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Best thing is that you dock your full mack in the orca that is also full to carry even more ore
Good job Chribba some DEV saw your post & nerfed this ability in today's patch =========================================================
EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% Nullsec residents. EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about... |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4465
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 21:54:00 -
[326] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I don't see any trade off in a BC meant to blow stuff and die fast. The trade offs (low tank, low tracking) are irrelevant, since concord is not tankable anyway and the targets have massive signatures.
Hulks on the other side have meaningful game play affecting trade offs.
I'll put this as nicely as I can - you seem to be arguing from a strictly hi-sec perspective, and a subset of hi-sec at that.
Tracking and tank are absolutely a huge tradeoff for tier 3 BCs. For a large, well organised 0.0 mining op, mined m^3/hr is all that counts. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1865
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 22:04:00 -
[327] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I don't see any trade off in a BC meant to blow stuff and die fast. The trade offs (low tank, low tracking) are irrelevant, since concord is not tankable anyway and the targets have massive signatures.
Hulks on the other side have meaningful game play affecting trade offs. I'll put this as nicely as I can - you seem to be arguing from a strictly hi-sec perspective, and a subset of hi-sec at that. Tracking and tank are absolutely a huge tradeoff for tier 3 BCs. For a large, well organised 0.0 mining op, mined m^3/hr is all that counts.
Should I argue from a perspective where a certain mechanic works?
It should work everywhere, so I argue off perspectives where the mechanic works worse than in other contexts. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Ubiquitous Newt
The F-Bombers
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 08:48:00 -
[328] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote: More tank, less gank, kids.
Don't bet on it. Unless you're getting ganked 4+ times a week, you'll still mine up a profit. *While* AFK.
I'll tell you something, I may not be an expert on 1337 PvP or nullsec politics, but I *am* an expert on lazy, mining, and soloing in Eve... The Hulk just got severely demoted. Nullsec mining? ....who the hell nullsec mines, have you seen the price of tritanium lately?
Yawanna know how popular the new hulk stats are? Look at the price moves between the hulk and the Mack in the last 30 days. The Hulk is down like 25%, and the Mack is up by at least that much. The hold-fill time is the deciding factor; move ore like a bored squirrel every 3 minutes, or once every 15+? Uh...duh? |
Pasta OfDoom
SrsBsnsIndeed
12
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 17:45:00 -
[329] - Quote
I don't understand why people are angry at mining becoming easier. It just means more carebears will mine and the price for minerals will go down. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
1229
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 18:22:00 -
[330] - Quote
Pasta OfDoom wrote:I don't understand why people are angry at mining becoming easier. It just means more carebears will mine and the price for minerals will go down. I think what they really angry at is the risk vs. reward is off. This is of course dependent on several factors and mostly ones own point of view.
Nerf them, buff me! Is the most common point of view.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2367
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 19:32:00 -
[331] - Quote
Ubiquitous Newt wrote:Idris Helion wrote: More tank, less gank, kids.
Don't bet on it. Unless you're getting ganked 4+ times a week, you'll still mine up a profit. *While* AFK. I'll tell you something, I may not be an expert on 1337 PvP or nullsec politics, but I *am* an expert on lazy, mining, and soloing in Eve... The Hulk just got severely demoted. Nullsec mining? ....who the hell nullsec mines, have you seen the price of tritanium lately? Yawanna know how popular the new hulk stats are? Look at the price moves between the hulk and the Mack in the last 30 days. The Hulk is down like 25%, and the Mack is up by at least that much. The hold-fill time is the deciding factor; move ore like a bored squirrel every 3 minutes, or once every 15+? Uh...duh? It all depends on whether you want to make the most money for the time invested.
Again, if Hulk popularity has decreased and Mac popularity has increased, things are working as intended.
By the way, where do you think those large orders of high end minerals come from anyway... the Ore Fairy? To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
veritas primus
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 19:37:00 -
[332] - Quote
Each barge has its place/role.
I still mine in my Hulk with Occator hauler alt.....in ice belts I use my Skiff and Occator.
Mack is still built like a wet paper sack. |
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
169
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 20:46:00 -
[333] - Quote
If you don't like them or the changes, you can always not use one, or go back to WOW if EVE just doesn't force you to run around the cluster site-seeing while you collect something to a scripted quest or whatever that game *cough* has in it.
Look, EVE is what people decide it is, your point of case is you don't like seeing this big change to the mack apparently, well that is the ship most people find the most useful, just like any other classification of ship people find the one that works the best and then use it, if it works well most people use it... that is just the way it is, most people found the ore bay the biggest plus in the changes and that makes sense, I said on the first SISI patch "The Mack is going to be the New Hulk" - and so be it, nothing wrong with that, something has to be top-dog... but at least it's based on sound function in role and also most common player philosophy and practice.
Why Macks all over... because it makes perfect sense.
1. Most miner's are solo player multiboxers... that is just a fact, their reasons for this play style very but it's just the straight fact of the matter... and having a booster that doesn't need to double as a hauler is one reason, and not having a non-miner hauling ship is another - multiboxing is about keeping the least amount of tasks for human-bandwidth attention... hulks need a hauler, so you have two more things to mind in your fleet, and ore transfers - a third extra thing, and then docking and undocking and so on...simplificatoin of tasks = more fun and better performance in the system. So when you have a boost you simply undock and turn on, you have no hauler, and you simply mine and haul each ship as a single entity with no transfers it's obvious people will do that... because it's efficient.
Now is this bad.. NO.. it's fine, it removed alot of the stupidity of using a cargo ship for an ore shuttle... it removed the use of jet-can's which never where intended for mining use, it makes the orca now a real command ship that can sit and boost on site or in system and not try to be a hauler in an op because it sucks in that role - too fat, slow and all, it's best used as a booster, OR a inter-system transport for mining ships, not a inter-op ore shuttle.
So CCP got rid of all the band-aid crap that has plagued mining since the beginning in a few changes - and made it more efficient just like any real life corporation or person would do, and your saying you don't like it because it's not the changes that suited your thoughts or way of playing... well get used to it, it's CCPs game, the majority of people are happy and the few that seem to be complaining are either:
Clueless about mining and just have to say there say regardless of how lacking in any understanding
-or-
Gankers tearing about how this now makes them have to find another outlet for there lack of real PvP skill and there no inability to make easy ISK running around exploiting the games intention for stupid antics to fill a KB with "Puffery" fluffer kills, which simply say you can't make real KMs so you have to pad it to the max with lame crap kills - compensation no doubt for other failings more personal. Look at all the Macks in local...impressive... very impressive... I see you have fashioned a new exhumer... much like you father's... your skills as a miner are now complete...indeed you are powerful as CCP Devs have foreseen... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1287
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 22:13:00 -
[334] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Pasta OfDoom wrote:I don't understand why people are angry at mining becoming easier. It just means more carebears will mine and the price for minerals will go down. I think what they really angry at is the risk vs. reward is off. This is of course dependent on several factors and mostly ones own point of view. Nerf them, buff me! Is the most common point of view. *shrug* wonder how low some of the macks get though, since they're clearly ungankable, why fit a tank sort of thing. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
519
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 04:01:00 -
[335] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:
Yes, I do semi-afk mining too and I LOVE it! I pay ~12,-Gé¼ each month just to be able to do it (and no, not plex, I use real money!!). While I do it, I watch TV or read a book or do my normal hause work (the stuff you have to do if you have no mom anymore).
I am confused. Why is paying for a subscription 'better' than burning up PLEX? You seem to think its something to brag about.
Also, what happened to your mom? Did she disown you?
Because I would have.....you know....if I was your mom. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1287
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 05:02:00 -
[336] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:
Yes, I do semi-afk mining too and I LOVE it! I pay ~12,-Gé¼ each month just to be able to do it (and no, not plex, I use real money!!). While I do it, I watch TV or read a book or do my normal hause work (the stuff you have to do if you have no mom anymore).
I am confused. Why is paying for a subscription 'better' than burning up PLEX? You seem to think its something to brag about. Also, what happened to your mom? Did she disown you? Because I would have.....you know....if I was your mom. Must be the case that selling plexes is even better than farming for isk as well ~~~ Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1914
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 05:08:00 -
[337] - Quote
I mostly just pay the monies for an account so I can keep posting here with you great people |
Sal Alo
Pane e Panelle
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 14:30:00 -
[338] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:LilRemmy wrote:Mining too easy now? I don't get this whine. ~pr0 n mining~
fixed |
200 Proof
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.08.25 15:26:00 -
[339] - Quote
The orehold isnt even a third of what it should be, the mackinaw should be 100k ore hold, with 100kehp unfitted. I mean such a small orebay is a joke.
Ps. I really like the mackinaw now, but the devs cant now, or else they will nerph it |
Dennis Gregs
The Scope Gallente Federation
22
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Posted - 2012.08.25 16:11:00 -
[340] - Quote
Whoever made this thread is an idiot, not even gonna look. |
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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
13
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Posted - 2012.08.26 07:18:00 -
[341] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:Nobody has pointed out that mackinkaw now holds more ore than an industrial hauler? How has nobody seen the fail logic in this? It takes the role of miner and hauler and does both better. The only thing industrials do is haul, that is their primary role and is what they do best. Wait, it was, until the patch? TROLOLOL
They've turned it into a miner and industrial all in one, the best of both worlds, a true solo pwnmobile.
How many packed frigates can you fit inside in a Mackinaw? Because I can stuff six into a Bestower, and I'm only at level 3. Ammunition? Modules? Processed minerals? Or, more to the point, what can you haul in a Mackinaw besides unprocessed ore?
Your claim to it being "a miner and industrial all in one, the best of both worlds" are completely without merit, unless the only hauling you ever do is raw ores. For everything else you still need proper industrial ships. Even if you're just doing mining, I might add, because once processed those minerals don't get to go back into the ore bay. They have to go in that dinky little 450m lunchbox they glued to the hull as an afterthought.
So yes, I use a Mackinaw, and yes, I always keep that Bestower one step behind it, too. |
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