There's one main reason for this. 35k m3 ore hold, not far below that of an ORCA.

Does anyone else think that the devs didn't think this through too well?

It's already apparent what effect this is having on the ice market. If the trend continues, soon the only people mining ice will be bots and afk alts.

A quarter the amount counts as Gǣnot far belowGǥ these days? WowGǪ

A quarter the amount counts as Gǣnot far belowGǥ these days? WowGǪ

Best thing is that you dock your full mack in the orca that is also full to carry even more ore

Yeah pretty sure that's not intentional

Shhh!
Being able to stuff 183,000m-¦ worth of ore into a single Orca without any modifications (206k if you abuse the hell out of cans) just makes the eventual loss that much more funGǪ

650k m3 of ore in a Rorqual says ~hi~

Nobody has pointed out that mackinkaw now holds more ore than an industrial hauler? How has nobody seen the fail logic in this?

Seeing as how you can't use the Mack as an industrial hauler, the fail logic lies in comparing it to one.

That was the entire reason for giving it a specific ore hold: so it can't be used that way, because all it ever will (and can) carry is space-wasting ore. If you want to haul stuff, the best ship for it is an industrial, since they can carry far more (both in terms of stuff and in terms of variety) than a simple mining ship can.

Unless you're using that industrial ship to haul ore from the belt, which is more its primary use.

This rebalancing really makes me wonder what they're going to do with industrials.

There's certainly no need to bring them on mining ops anymore.

Its primary use is to haul stuff all over the place. It does that far better than the Mack can ever wish for.

The one minor use-case of hauling ore from a belt to a station is still there for group mining efforts for much the same reason: because an industrial can be made to haul more and can be far more flexible in terms of what it carries (eg. all those mining crystals that Hulk users have been whinging about). All the Mack does is allow you to stay in the belt for longer before returning to station, and in that scenario, no hauler is involved to begin with so nothing has been replaced. If you intend never to leave the belt to begin with, then you still need that indy since it does the job far better.

Claiming that the every-day haulers is losing its role as an every-day hauler to a ship that cannot actually haul stuff is downright silly.

As a point of comparison, a Mack can bring just over 1M units of trit to the market; a mega-haul Itty V can bring nearly 4MGǪ or 86M units if you employ a bit of compression.

For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling.

The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does.

GǪfor which a top-end industrial is still a better choice since it does it faster and in larger volume. In teams in particular, it allows you to switch from Macks to Hulk+Orca combos and leave everyone else in the belt, nicely boosted up.

And even if this rather secondary use for industrials was ever so slightly intruded on by the Mack, then so what? It just means the Mack is doing its job as a solo miner and it doesn't make any difference for the value of industrials at large.

Good news: they don't. There is no imbalance.

For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore.

The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. If you really want a dedicated hauler anyway, just use another Mackinkaw, it can mine between hauling sessions. If you're going to do that though you may aswell just use each miner as its own hauler anyway. God, this is so dumb.

Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.

The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though.

The rapidly crashing ice market is a symptom of the imbalance, we'll see just how bad it goes. This is what happens when you give a mining ship a hauler sized ore hold. Every solo miner is now as efficient as a miner+hauler, and all for no effort too!

Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.

Maybe you mean 55% extra yield with orca pilot skills and gank modules?
And that is for every ship in the fleet. And you are for some reason keep forgetting the cycle losses from having to go back to the station.

2 hulks+orca = 4 machinaws give or take.

Maybe you mean 55% extra yield with orca pilot skills and gank modules?
And that is for every ship in the fleet. And you are for some reason keep forgetting the cycle losses from having to go back to the station.

2 hulks+orca = 4 machinaws give or take.

It's assumed that if you're using an orca to boost the hulks then you would be using an orca to boost the macks. 2 max yield hulks + orca is only 9% more yield than 2 max yield macks + orca.

The biggest difference is macks hold more than 4 times the ore, far less effort is needed and in paticular when mining ice this far outweighs any benefit you gain from the 9% more yield the hulk setup would give. You can literally leave your computer alone for half an hour while you fill up on ore, allowing you put out far longer mining sessions than you could in a hulk.

CCP wanted to do away with there being one best barge, before that was the hulk. All they've achieved is making the mackinkaw the new king barge and entirely crashed the ice market at the same time. The market prices of the hulk and mackinkaw reflect this, their prices have been completely reversed. The new mackinkaw costs the same amount as the old hulk, the new hulk costs the same amount as the old mackinkaw. The market doesn't lie. The majority are mining in Mackinkaws.

Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.

The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though.

Why talk about Ice mining the prices are starting to flat line. You make a lot more money mining rocks because its not an afk activity. As to the market, have you considered that as it's a supply an demand market that atm a lot of solo miners are changing ships so the market cost has gone up because of demand?

It's assumed that if you're using an orca to boost the hulks then you would be using an orca to boost the macks. 2 max yield hulks + orca is only 9% more yield than 2 max yield macks + orca.

The biggest difference is macks hold more than 4 times the ore, far less effort is needed and in paticular when mining ice this far outweighs any benefit you gain from the 9% more yield the hulk setup would give. You can literally leave your computer alone for half an hour while you fill up on ore, allowing you put out far longer mining sessions than you could in a hulk.

CCP wanted to do away with there being one best barge, before that was the hulk. All they've achieved is making the mackinkaw the new king barge and entirely crashed the ice market at the same time. The market prices of the hulk and mackinkaw reflect this, their prices have been completely reversed. The new mackinkaw costs the same amount as the old hulk, the new hulk costs the same amount as the old mackinkaw. The market doesn't lie. The majority are mining in Mackinkaws.

You need to check your bonuses, unless you run the Mack with three MLU/IHUs, in which case it's not noticeably stronger than the Hulk. The size of the Hulk's ore hold is utterly irrelevant since you're not going to use it other than as a transition buffer. For all intents and purposes, it can be considered infinite.

GǪexcept that doing so means you lose the boosts for long periods of time, which reduces your yield. So instead you use the Orca as a huge cargo can GÇö another transfer buffer from which the actual haulers pull ore and take back to base.

So no, using the Orca as a belt shuttle is hideously inefficient unless you actually run with two of themGǪ and that's just slow and cumbersome compared to using an actual industrial hauler.

The market also doesn't tell the truth either. The prices has also been changed because of manufacturing cost has also changed, plus its semi artificially being manipulated, as the demand of mackinaws has increased slightly, but not majorly. And as some solo miners switch to mackinaws, the manipulators are getting the hulks for cheaper. Same as the people who stole the retrievers from the market and are now selling them for a huge profit.

Also you said earlier "all mackinaws", not macks + orca.
And people who mined ice already had mackinaws before for ice mining. That also didn't change at all.
And afk mining ore? Seriously? go afk for 30 minutes and you come back after your ship sat for 15 minutes doing nothing because the ore you mined went empty. Mining ore afk is a complete waste of time.

And no, I don't agree with you that the majority moved to mackinaws. The majority will still be using what they used before the change, the hulk. New people might move to mackinaws, but most team miners will still go for hulks.

The belt numbers don't lie, most people are using mackinkaws and it's T1 equivalent, retrievers.

Mining too easy now? I don't get this whine.

I don't need to check anything

The ore hold size is very relevant, with the hulk you need to do a lot more work, it's far more intensive

GǪfor which a top-end industrial is still a better choice since it does it faster and in larger volume. In teams in particular, it allows you to switch from Macks to Hulk+Orca combos and leave everyone else in the belt, nicely boosted up.

And even if this rather secondary use for industrials was ever so slightly intruded on by the Mack, then so what? It just means the Mack is doing its job as a solo miner and it doesn't make any difference for the value of industrials at large.

Good news: they don't. There is no imbalance.

I don't need to check anything, a mack can have near 20k EHP with 3 upgrades, which is enough.

The ore hold size is very relevant, with the hulk you need to do a lot more work, it's far more intensive, with the mack you can have a very laid back, semi afk or even totally afk mining session, you could even go make dinner and eat it, come back and you're still not full on ore, that is an undeniably huge bonus. This applies to ice mining obviously.

I think what needs to be done now is to get rid of NPC corps... now that you cant just insta gank these things anymore you should be able to war dec these people... just force them into thier respective faction warfare corp and there you have it...

The hulk has a small margin in yield

no tank

and no storage capacity.

I think what needs to be done now is to get rid of NPC corps... now that you cant just insta gank these things anymore you should be able to war dec these people... just force them into thier respective faction warfare corp and there you have it...

Heh they can most definitely be ganked, easily

Hulk just got more hitpoints, more cpu and more powergird.
It has a stronger tank than before the patch and it still by far the king of pure yield.
Before the patch your Hulk would fill up in perhaps 3 cycles and now it's gone down to one.
Hulk pilots now have to pay a little bit more attention during mining ops.
Boo hoooooooooo

More yield by far? You call 9% a lot? Infact all of the barges yields are very close to each. The mackinkaws tank is also stronger , even when running a max yield fit than the max yield Hulk.

Hulk, 9% more yield than Mack
Mack, over 400% more ore holding space than Hulk

Cargo space is a godsend, i don't know why they decided to make it so stupidly high.

Greetings

Eve pilots. Never a more finicky crew of panty waists and complainers. The reason the barges were buffed was because of a successful never ending b*tching campaign by the "bears" of EVE. The intend of which was to increase mining by introducing roll based ships as opposed to linear progression based ships , making minerals more available, driving manufacturing costs down, and stabilizing the market. Add the addition of Alchemy in an attempt to stabilize Tech and T2 prices, we might also see a decrease in ship prices as well.

2 cents

, since the fleet provides an infinitely deep hole to pour it into.

i was runing the number got around a 30k ehp tank on the mack... not bad... not safe either...

how many catalysts do you need now to kill one?

with heat on you get what 650 dps out of each one? so 4 do 2600 dps so in 11 seconds its dead...
not bad at all i guess... just takes more coordination...

Yes, 25% more yield for a comparable fit indeed makes the king by far, and if you try to make up for that difference, you suffer by making the Mack a hell of a lot easier to kill, which, since it screams GÇ£I'm AFKGÇ¥, is a bad thing.

The reason it got the cargo space it got is because it's intended to replace jet cans. The reason the Hulk didn't get it is because it doesn't need it, since the fleet provides an infinitely deep hole to pour it into.

The only thing hulk has going for it over the mackinkaw is 9% more yield in a max yield setup.

You're one of the reasons I liked the change, because there will always be those fitting for max yield and then crying when they diaf.

You like that a max yield Mackinkaw can now reach 20k EHP, which is as much as a fully tanked prepatch mackinkaw could get.

Mackinkaw beats hulk on tank in every comparable yield situation between the two.

25% more yield with comparable tank?

Hey we're not going to stop you from thinking that 20k EHP isn't paper-thin.

GǪby such a small margin that you might as well use the Hulk if you're going for max yield on the Mack. A significant part of the Mack's improved tank lies in that third lowslot GÇö if you ignore it and go for yield instead, you certainly come a bit close to the Hulk in terms of yield, but you also becomes so much weaker that you've just wasted one of its strong points. You are now flying a ship that tells everyone that you are AFK, and if you only get 20k EHP out of it, you have wasted a third of its tanking potential in at attempt to still be mine less than the Hulk, so guess what happens when they come flocking to that big GÇ£I'm AFKGÇ¥ neon sign you've erectedGǪ

No. 25% more yield with a comparable fit.

Yes, 25% more yield for a comparable fit indeed

More yield by far? You call 9% a lot? Infact all of the barges yields are very close to each. The mackinkaws tank is also stronger , even when running a max yield fit than the max yield Hulk.

Hulk, 9% more yield than Mack
Mack, over 400% more ore holding space than Hulk

Cargo space is a godsend, i don't know why they decided to make it so stupidly high.

At least ore wise, fully skilled with perfect orca boosting, its about 15% difference in m3 on ore mining. Not 9% but not 25%.

Give an example of this 25% more yield with a comparable fit. Incase you don't bother, i'll do one for you.

Not a miner so I don't understand the intricacies of fitting mining ships...but 9% extra DPS for a ship would be a great bonus...just saying...

Since you don't seem to understand - the mackinaw is a solo ship. As such the only reasonable fit is to go full tank since you'll be a prime target for gankers. The hulk's role is a fleet ship and as such it should go full yield since it has the protection of the fleet. When you compare the yield of the two in their respective optimal situations the difference in yield is huge.

TBH I think the argument is just about which ship is the "king" of afk mining.
If it was a 40% less yield ship, they would still king it if it means going to the gym for 5 hours and coming back with a full cargo...

I think its a pretty silly argument. EvE is not about going AFK.

i was runing the number got around a 30k ehp tank on the mack... not bad... not safe either...

how many catalysts do you need now to kill one?

with heat on you get what 650 dps out of each one? so 4 do 2600 dps so in 11 seconds its dead...
not bad at all i guess... just takes more coordination...

Yes, you could do that, The question is, why would you considering that each Cat costs like 15m each (last I checked, not been ingame for months) so based on that you'd need 60m worth of drops to just break even.

TBH I think the argument is just about which ship is the "king" of afk mining.
If it was a 40% less yield ship, they would still king it if it means going to the gym for 5 hours and coming back with a full cargo...

I think its a pretty silly argument. EvE is not about going AFK.

For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore.

The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. If you really want a dedicated hauler anyway, just use another Mackinkaw, it can mine between hauling sessions. If you're going to do that though you may aswell just use each miner as its own hauler anyway. God, this is so dumb.

3-4 mil per cat is considered expensive

Full set of miners, same amount of upgrades, the rest tank (and filling out any remaining slots with some low-CPU stuff since you'll be very low on both ships). This means that we're only really seeing the inherent differences in the ship bonuses which, as it happens, turn out to be +15%+15% compared to +5%GǪ The difference is a bit over 25% (closer to 26% actually, and we haven't included the loss from travel time on the Mack).

In such a situation, the Hulk will sit at ~20k EHP and the Mack at ~35k.

Ripping out the suitcase on the Mack and replacing it with an MLU means you have to start losing hardeners and are edging towards low-20k EHP instead.

The only thing hulk has going for it over the mackinkaw is 9% more yield in a max yield setup.

To be fair, the much-feared Gǣmax DPSGǥ Cat does indeed set you back roughly 15M at Jita pricesGǪ

GǪbut if you can settle for a little less damage, the price sure drops veeery quickly.

Yes, that is it's role, more yield. That is it's stated purpose, more yield. What's the problem, here? You admitted yourself it has more yield, Hulk working as intended.

Mining Ice as I post this thread now. I check local like I am in null, and watch every warp in like its a combat op gone wrong.
But, hey I am paranoid

Ice is easy mining, no work involved and can be done afk. I am not mining for any profit right now myself, got a tower to feed in the near future

The thing i don't see being talking about is, belt respawn times either need to be upped or something done about the rocks.
I check three systems in Genesis, belts stripped clean. And some of those belts were massive pre-patch.

There's one main reason for this. 35k m3 ore hold, not far below that of an ORCA. Does anyone else think that the devs didn't think this through too well? I can't see many miners not taking a Mackinkaw over a Hulk even with Orca support, because 35k m3 ore hold allows them to do other things while your Mackinkaw pulls in what is basically an afk income for at least half an hour at a time.

Since you don't seem to understand - the mackinaw is a solo ship. As such the only reasonable fit is to go full tank since you'll be a prime target for gankers. The hulk's role is a fleet ship and as such it should go full yield since it has the protection of the fleet. When you compare the yield of the two in their respective optimal situations the difference in yield is huge.

"Protection of the fleet"?

I'm curious to know what this protection of the fleet is ....

I'm guessing:
Scouts on the gates (1+ systems out)
People ATK
Station-less system
Possibly lowsec
Fleet boosts for shields

Go to lowsec, those belts are rich in rocks.

Mackinkaw: 287m sell/263m buy
Hulk: 224m sell/170m buy
Skiff: 190m sell/164m buy

I thought the intention of the barge buff was to remove one barge being best. That being the Hulk. The Mackinkaw has taken the Hulks old roll as king of the barges, the yield is almost as good as the Hulk, it has better tank, and it has a massive ore hold which is the primary thing that's making it so overpowered. Able to mine on ice roids for over half an hour as a semi afk income, it can't be beaten, it has taken the role of the Hulk as the primary choice of barge. Failing that, the retriever, which is almost as good.

There's one main reason for this. 35k m3 ore hold, not far below that of an ORCA. Does anyone else think that the devs didn't think this through too well? I can't see many miners not taking a Mackinkaw over a Hulk even with Orca support, because 35k m3 ore hold allows them to do other things while your Mackinkaw pulls in what is basically an afk income for at least half an hour at a time.

It's already apparent what effect this is having on the ice market. If the trend continues, soon the only people mining ice will be bots and afk alts.

Someone pointed out below that the Mackinkaw hauls ore better than an actual hauler does now. It takes the primary role of a hauler and does it better. You may aswell have just taken the Iteron MK5/Occator and given it mining lasers and hulk like yield. That's what we have now, a super industrial all in one miner and hauler

All it did was make the Mack the choice of high sec solo miners. Hulks still mine more, they just need the support of a corp.

These changes made sure every type of miner had a ship that catered to their mining style of choice, that's all.

You look around the highsec belts and see the extinction of the hulk in favor of the mackinaw. Check the market and note the price changes, too.

Didn't I just say it's now the ship of choice for high-sec solo miners...


Well, "The Market" is high sec and....of course that's going to happen, people want to make money off these changes.

Out in 0.0 I'm sure the Hulk will live on, where it has the support of raquals etc.

Even in High sec, with the support of a orca, hulk is still preferable for yield.

650 DPS is only with all skills at V, void and heat on an all-neutron catalyst, which you can't fit a scram+web on with 3 magstabs. It's more reasonable to assume 460 dps with heat and named blasters with faction ammo or 580 dps on a 5 neutron/2 ion catalyst with CPU rigs.

You can get 47k EHP against blasters if you brick it and keep hardeners preheated FYI

Mackinkaw: 287m sell/263m buy
Hulk: 224m sell/170m buy
Skiff: 190m sell/164m buy

I thought the intention of the barge buff was to remove one barge being best. That being the Hulk. The Mackinkaw has taken the Hulks old roll as king of the barges, the yield is almost as good as the Hulk, it has better tank, and it has a massive ore hold which is the primary thing that's making it so overpowered.

When I said it before the patch, like here and here was welcome with denial if not utter derision.

Glad to see once again I was right and they wrong.

And the denial doesn't end here either ;) even though belt statistics paint a clear picture of just how popular the mac is and how unpopular the hulk has become.

One could also draw the conclusion that solo mining is far more popular in highsec than fleet mining... nawww that makes sense and doesn't jibe with the whole OMG MACK IS THE BESTES TTHING EVA NO ONE FLIES HULKS!!!111

And the denial doesn't end here either ;) even though the screenshots i posted on the previous page paint a clear picture of just how popular the mac is and how unpopular the hulk has become. I think someone pointed out that market price reflects this too?

Mackinkaw: 287m sell/263m buy
Hulk: 224m sell/170m buy
Skiff: 190m sell/164m buy

I thought the intention of the barge buff was to remove one barge being best. That being the Hulk. The Mackinkaw has taken the Hulks old roll as king of the barges, the yield is almost as good as the Hulk, it has better tank, and it has a massive ore hold which is the primary thing that's making it so overpowered. Able to mine on ice roids for over half an hour as a semi afk income, it can't be beaten, it has taken the role of the Hulk as the primary choice of barge. Failing that, the retriever, which is almost as good.

There's one main reason for this. 35k m3 ore hold, not far below that of an ORCA. Does anyone else think that the devs didn't think this through too well? I can't see many miners not taking a Mackinkaw over a Hulk even with Orca support, because 35k m3 ore hold allows them to do other things while your Mackinkaw pulls in what is basically an afk income for at least half an hour at a time.

It's already apparent what effect this is having on the ice market. If the trend continues, soon the only people mining ice will be bots and afk alts.

Someone pointed out below that the Mackinkaw hauls ore better than an actual hauler does now. It takes the primary role of a hauler and does it better. You may aswell have just taken the Iteron MK5/Occator and given it mining lasers and hulk like yield. That's what we have now, a super industrial all in one miner and hauler

Some of the belts I screenshotted had over a dozen orcas yet no hulks, so much for orca support groups using hulks.

New Mack is awesome, great change for the downtrodden hisec miners, Goon stranglehold on Eve economy is loosening

[quote=Peter Raptor]it is impossible to die in HS if you pay attention.

It is impossible to die in HS if you pay attention.

That is not even remotely true..

There never was a stranglehold on economy. Jihad/hulkageddon only effected the lazy an the stupid. It is impossible to die in HS if you pay attention.

Some of the belts I screenshotted had over a dozen orcas yet no hulks, so much for orca support groups using hulks.

Not necessarily. You look around the highsec belts and see the extinction of the hulk in favor of the mackinaw. Check the market and note the price changes, too.

While you paid attention and lost 1 ship, many never lost a ship and mined so AFK that they could go walk the dog, eat a snack and much more. When they lost that ship they would notice they lost 1 day worth of mining over 1 year of no gank and they carried on.

Not sure it was worth to play like a spasm low sec perma danger miner, it's not like your efforts earned 1 penny more than the lazy AFKers.

I still keep my ancient, large rigs Hulks parked in a station as souvenir. They had some massive AFK mining done on them

I'm going to laugh my ass off when ice has crashed to an all new low, and all the miners are bitching on the forum. Bring back hulkageddon And even I can see that the mac is the new top barge on the block.

Price of ores all around have all ready started to take a nose dive.

Last time I died to a gank was bvack in Jihad, when I was foolish enough to mine in Genisis which was goons favorite hunting ground. I treat HS just the same as I would 4CB7x or 9UY etc etc..... I use SS, an I have insta warps off every station I use. Never once been ganked since that day. When I mission I Dscan every 15 seconds on dot.

Edit, an I never EVER mission in high population systems.
It is most definitely true

Yes granted the mack has a better tank , but that is giving alot of miners a false sense of security
Even now a few days after the patch i see alot of macks from players who are fitted for max yield in favour of the antigank tank , sure it might help defend against the casual gank attempt but against a determined gank attack it is just as vulnerable as before

It will only be a few weeks before gankers develop new tactics , probably even faster, and all the whinning will continue when that happens
This time it will not be the gankers it will be the miners who bring this on themselves ,

CCP gave you good tankable exhumers , now use it FFS

[No.

They'll hope to get another buff by screaming about gankers as they get ganked.

most likely but i am sure this is all they will get for a long time , it just amazes me that after all these months alarge number of them still go out untanked and afk mine , if they are unwilling to learn and adapt they deserve to be ganked , and that is final

Which is good, because price double bottoms need nose dives.

And then...

The consensus will change in time to "Well the mining barge buff wasn't enough, we're still losing our untanked hulks and mackinaws to destroyers!!!"

Best thing is that you dock your full mack in the orca that is also full to carry even more ore

I think everyone is forgetting that the bonuses that MLUs provide are applied to each laser, thus compounding the benefit of fitting one to a ship such as a covetor or a hulk.

lol TA.

... it goes up or down or stays the same.

Dont know what they did, but they really bolloxed mining now. I went through 12 ICE belts tonight an every one of them had 5-15 Macks+ Orca's. I finally find a Hulk in doxi, an I unloaded on it... Did FA to it. He took my Alpha an just ignored me. lol

One hulk in over 30 miners, yer they provided lots of diversity.....

Honestly I think they should just dump the Cargohold down to 2000 for Crystals and increase the ORE Bay to around 200k.

Then introduce light freighters if people miss their improvised hauler so much.

Dont know what they did, but they really bolloxed mining now. I went through 12 ICE belts tonight an every one of them had 5-15 Macks+ Orca's. I finally find a Hulk in doxi, an I unloaded on it... Did FA to it. He took my Alpha an just ignored me. lol

One hulk in over 30 miners, yer they provided lots of diversity.....

They'd do better in hulks, but they're not paying attention.

Dont know what they did, but they really bolloxed mining now. I went through 12 ICE belts tonight an every one of them had 5-15 Macks+ Orca's. I finally find a Hulk in doxi, an I unloaded on it... Did FA to it. He took my Alpha an just ignored me. lol

One hulk in over 30 miners, yer they provided lots of diversity.....

The influx of bots is already noticeable, in last 4 days ive seen so many bots where before there were none. They come an go to the exact same spot, they act exactly same every time no matter what you do....

You realize they could just be - ignoring you, right? Ahh no, vanity.

Remember, people are idiots who don't like change. and don't pay attention. So 'Mack for ice mining. That's how I did it, that's how dad did it' and so on.

They'd do better in hulks, but they're not paying attention.


If more miners did, Scordite wouldn't be worth what it is.

I'm hearing every excuse in the book to try to stop the inevitable Mackinkaw nerf from taking place. First they say any orca pilot will use hulks, this has been proven false, then they say that that all the hulks hang out in nullsec fleet ops, this has not been proven, and even if it was true, fleet ops are a niche compared to the majority of mining that takes place.

So now the next claim is that people just forgot to switch their ships since the patch, which is another assumption with no facts behind it. The price of mackinkaws and hulks in jita paints a clear picture, mackinkaw is the new top barge of choice for the majority of miners and that's really no great shock considering how imbalanced it is presently.

There was more hulks in the belts and ice fields prepatch, ever since mackinkaws got made into the best overall barge the majority has switched to mackinkaws. So people have adapted to the patch, they've dumped their hulks and switched to mackinkaws. Jita prices reflect this.

LOL I love how miners come to forums an cry to CCP that they are above the rule set an should be hand held. CCP listen an give them that immunity they feel they deserve. Amusing. As for the trolls "trying" to score points... irrelevant. facts are facts, CCP always listen to the ones who complain the most. EG Miners/botters

This is a fact

Jihad they screamed an ranted that waaa we deserve to have our hands held.
CCP listened an bang! Concord boost was given.

Forward 3 years, Miners cry an rave that they alone deserve to be protected, it isn't fair they shouldn't have to use their brain cel an actually think to protect themselves....
CCP listens....

After all god forbid, a miner had to NOT mine in high pop systems
After all god forbid a miner actually mined in mission belts
After all god forbid a Miner actually used Dscan
After all god forbid a miner actually talked to others to find out who gankers are an -10 them, so they could see em coming.

After all....oh **** it lol Basically miners dont want self responsibility, they "demand" CCP protect em... :)

100$ says Mission runners will be next, they will work out that miners got what they demanded, an they will say "it isnt fair, we want to be free to mission anywhere we choose in 10b fittings without any risk... lol

As for my little self, I enjoy going after Viators an haulers in general. dont give a damn about loot, kills for tears is payment enough.

I actually hit like on your post, because its quite well written an true for most part. 1 hulk in 3 hours hunting tonight, v 30+ Macks....that alone shows your right. CCP just traded one ship for another, an gave it immunity to death so botters an afkers can go anywhere they want.

edit
CCP wont nerf Macks, not after they came out an explained how great their patch was, an how its opened up mining.... when in reality they have made it 100x easier for botters an afkers.

CCP always over react, Jihad showed that. Goons have done alot for eve, an Jihad itself made HS "fun".... was sad when CCP over reacted.

I agree that they over reacted, the moment they released the first changes on Sisi the were insane, they had to nerf them a few times on Sisi. It's really hard to understand their line of thinking with the mackinkaws ridiculous ore hold size, how could they not see that they were creating an even bigger problem?

I agree that they over reacted, the moment they released the first changes on Sisi the were insane, they had to nerf them a few times on Sisi. It's really hard to understand their line of thinking with the mackinkaws ridiculous ore hold size, how could they not see that they were creating an even bigger problem?

100$ says Mission runners will be next, they will work out that miners got what they demanded, an they will say "it isnt fair, we want to be free to mission anywhere we choose in 10b fittings without any risk... lol.

I am of the opinion that the changes are awesome. Are you really mad because now you don't need a separate character to haul if you use the midsize mining ships? Ship costs have been rising steadily since CCP removed other stream of ore into the game. Don't worry, they won't drop back down as low, but they won't stay as high either.

If your mad because guys can go afk mining ice for an hour? So what? How else do you play a mechanic that requires 5+ mins of staying 10km within a stationary object? The price drops with the influx of supply, and its not attractive, and they do something else. All the while they lower the isk cost of playing with capitals or running POSes.

Really, it sounds like you are mad because more people have a reason and the ability to mine without a real fear of being ganked. That lowers prices and thats bad for your, but good for others. deal bud.

I'm hearing every excuse in the book to try to stop the inevitable Mackinkaw nerf from taking place. First they say any orca pilot will use hulks, this has been proven false, then they say that that all the hulks hang out in nullsec fleet ops, this has not been proven, and even if it was true, fleet ops are a niche compared to the majority of mining that takes place.

uhhh....yeah, I think that's one of the things miners wanted and got. They should probably lower the yield, AFK miners shouldn't make so much ISK. Ice is gonna' crash hard.

And why does the Mack need to be nerfed?

Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless.

A machinaw will not survive for very long in a null sec attack for example, but a skiff will with its huge buffer, until someone comes to help.

Plenty of ships will kill you in nullsec long before any help arrives. People kill supercarriers before any help is nearby - a 100k EHP Skiff is no problem.

Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless.

GǪwhich you can link to, hopefully.

And still: why does the Mack need to be nerfed?

Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless.

It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere.

You talking about normal belts? Must be, if you checked the ice fields there's 30 macs and 0 hulks PER belt :)

All hail our new afk mining barge overlord!

People *****....but honestly someone out there has to keep the market full of trit and pyrite, let the afk miners sit in the belts, so everyone else can do more exciting things!

Things like:

1.sitting on gates in low sec waiting to gank
2.sitting in wormholes waiting for corp members to get on so they can do something
3.sitting in incursion fleets for 1-2 hours waiting for just "1 more logi"
3.sitting in null waiting for fleet to form up
4.sitting on the forums being a big jerk
5.sitting in stations
6.sitting in cq in station watching the low frame rate

Guys...we are a community of sitters.

If the new Mack lets the miners sit in belts, who are we to deny them that?

Lol love that...pure ossum...
but if miners can sit in belts, I want ISK while waiting for gangs to form up or people to jump through gates...

It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere.

It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere.

I have looked at several killboards.

The macks are still mostly untanked (surprise, eh?) since changing a ship does not make years-of-tradition bads less bad at fitting them.

So, it takes about 2 dessies to kill them, 3 in higher sec or with some tank.

Go, and kill those pesky miners if their existence does not make you sleep in the night.

I have looked at several killboards.

The macks are still mostly untanked (surprise, eh?) since changing a ship does not make years-of-tradition bads less bad at fitting them.

So, it takes about 2 dessies to kill them, 3 in higher sec or with some tank.

Go, and kill those pesky miners if their existence does not make you sleep in the night.

It makes all the other ships useless

Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes.

Won't the price simply recover from the manipulation and stabilize? I thought the price was pushed way up because of all of Goonswarm's ganking campaigns such that they effectively cornered the market for a while.

I just wanne say thanks CCP to give the botting **** a great ship.

You are dead wrong.

When mining in a team you are mining in hulks. They dump their load to the orca, and the orca either takes the ore to the station, or you are using another orca to transfer the ore to the station.

There is absolutely no reason to use mackinaws in a team ops. Even when not tanked they will not do as much m3/hour as a tanked hulk with a booster orca. No need to go and dump your load means lots more cycles dedicated to mining than flying to station, which makes the ops a hell of alot more efficient. Using macks in a team is very in-efficient.

For a solo miner, its retriever->mackinaw.
For a group miner its retriever->hulk.
For a null miner its mainly a skiff.

I don't need to check anything, a mack can have near 20k EHP with 3 upgrades, which is enough.

The ore hold size is very relevant, with the hulk you need to do a lot more work, it's far more intensive, with the mack you can have a very laid back, semi afk or even totally afk mining session, you could even go make dinner and eat it, come back and you're still not full on ore, that is an undeniably huge bonus. This applies to ice mining obviously.

I just wanne say thanks CCP to give the botting **** a great ship.

A max damage cat also does a lot more than 600.

Beyond that half of the cat's gear drops too. So 1.3 mil loss for the ship then half the equipment.

I got a:

gistii-b booster http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14311548

pithi-b booster http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14310410

gistum-c booster & palisade cap recharger http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14308989

All today.

Hulks/Macks also salvage for up to 3 intact plates or 3 power things.


Forum posters give miners too much credit:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14310936
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14310628
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14310010

Those were today as well.

You do not get the concept of team mining do you? After 2 hours the hulk team will still have mined more. Thus more profit..
One would still use a dedicated hauler alt/player to fly back and forward from orca to base non stop. Mack is handy for solo mining nothing more..
The higher market price atm doesn't proof anything as well. Yes the mack has a spike but it will rise in price that much faster because fewer numbers are being produced. Same way the fast hulk drop can be derived from larger production cause it used to be alone as king of miners. Now solo miners switch to mack.