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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
Kai'rae Saarkus
Ganja Labs
Exodus.
16
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Posted - 2012.10.20 22:53:00 -
[271] - Quote
Malken wrote:scythe reps better than basilisk (3 large reps x 75% bonus = 5.25 effective large reps @ 92km range; 2016 shields every 5sec), is cap stable, faster than ab scimi (771m/s), no tank true but has 2 damps against enemy sniper or ecm platform.
[NEW Scythe, 3 large rr]
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Cap Recharger II
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
why CCP?
Nice troll.
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Strange Shadow
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
19
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Posted - 2012.10.21 02:20:00 -
[272] - Quote
Proposed Tech1 logistics looks way overpowered to me:
1. No other Tech1 cruiser hull have FOUR bonuses to it.
2. No other ship in EVE i know of have 1000% bonus to anything at all, not even titans.
3. Both 1 and 2 are embedded in cheap Tech1.
The only thing that could come is total abuse by everybody everywhere. Compared to "specialized" Tech2 logi, there is not much to be gained for 30x times price increase, so as it is they will pretty much become unused, since its way cheaper AND better to bring 10 augorors than 2 guardians (with lack of resists compensated by huge rep power).
Main problem i see here is that ALL of specialized logistics bonuses of Tech2 logi squeezed into Tech1 hull, without dialing down properly. Imagine Bellicose having role bonus of a Huginn (bonus to web range). Who will fly huginn then? Even with better resists etc. huginn will be simply forgotten since its huge price doesnt offer any solid advantage over bellicose.
People here keep saying that these changes are good, but i see them as way too good, and WAY unbalanced with other cruisers changes in other threads.
Suggestions:
1. Make all bonuses to repair restricted to only medium rep modules. Also tone down the range bonus.
2. Remove second logistic bonus at all (e.g. energy transfer from augoror). Or at least dial it down too, as it is, said augoror have same energy bonuses as guardian (+200% here vs -50% there).
3. Maybe add some other combat related bonuses instead. Tech1 hulls supposed to have more broad uses, as opposed to "specialized" Tech2.
In general, please take a look at "Support frigates" thread and do something similar, but for medium rep modules, there is far more sense in that thread than here.
No idea why devs decided that Tech1 logistics should be (almost) as good as specialized Tech2 in usability (while all other cruisers dont) but i think its bad idea. Extra few months of training for logistics V and added price ot Tech 2 becomes simply not worth it for most people. Please rethink these changes from scratch. |
Dread Pirate Pete
Tribal Core
Defiant Legacy
79
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Posted - 2012.10.21 10:23:00 -
[273] - Quote
I think the best way to balance the effectiveness/isk of the t1 logis is simply cutting the range bonus in half. Sure they rep well, but that is mitigated by the fact that you have to defend them from pesky interceptors,etc. |
Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
44
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 10:57:00 -
[274] - Quote
The rep amount and range bonuses might be a bit too much, but just as the e-war cruisers I like were this is headed. Problem is just what this implies for T2 ships when their time comes. Power creep? |
pussnheels
The Fiction Factory
662
|
Posted - 2012.10.22 06:35:00 -
[275] - Quote
to be honest i hate the idea that i just wasted 24 days on 3 different characters on getting logistics lvl 5 and you are now making t1 support cruiser almost as good as a maxed out logistics pilot and say that you will balance the t2 logistics in the future , what future another 5 years or something ?? not good not good at all
I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
228
|
Posted - 2012.10.22 10:21:00 -
[276] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:to be honest i hate the idea that i just wasted 24 days on 3 different characters on getting logistics lvl 5 and you are now making t1 support cruiser almost as good as a maxed out logistics pilot and say that you will balance the t2 logistics in the future , what future another 5 years or something ?? not good not good at all
I expect that battle cruisers and battleships will be the next ships to be balanced and then T2 hulls will get the balance sweep.
I would guestimate a realistic timeline of about 6 months (summer 2013 expansion) for when they get to rebalancing T2 cruisers. So it's not going to be that long a wait. |
Mizhir
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
136
|
Posted - 2012.10.22 13:28:00 -
[277] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Didn't YtterbiumGÖÑFozzie say that they are looking at options/ways to prevent the use of large RR mods except as gimmicks? Can be done quite easily by tweaking fitting reqs for large mods and the attributes of the "proper" (read: T2) logistics as they are the intended abusers/users. Now lets talk pigeon holes. Why must all logistics be one trick ponies? 
They can easily prevent that by limiting the bonus on the t1 support cruisers to medium sized reppers. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
238
|
Posted - 2012.10.22 13:33:00 -
[278] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:to be honest i hate the idea that i just wasted 24 days on 3 different characters on getting logistics lvl 5 and you are now making t1 support cruiser almost as good as a maxed out logistics pilot and say that you will balance the t2 logistics in the future , what future another 5 years or something ?? not good not good at all
You didn't.
The T2s will still have their tiny little sigs and have y'know like a tank.
I'm not crying about my wasted time training logi stuff just yet. I've flown a scimi THROUGH a fleet of 35 oracles and warped out with only 25% shield damage. I doubt I would have managed that with the new T1s.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
325
|
Posted - 2012.10.22 13:53:00 -
[279] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:Didn't YtterbiumGÖÑFozzie say that they are looking at options/ways to prevent the use of large RR mods except as gimmicks? Can be done quite easily by tweaking fitting reqs for large mods and the attributes of the "proper" (read: T2) logistics as they are the intended abusers/users. Now lets talk pigeon holes. Why must all logistics be one trick ponies? They can easily prevent that by limiting the bonus on the t1 support cruisers to medium sized reppers.
Sure they could, but why utterly remove the option when such drastic measures are not needed?
Large RR has significantly lower fittings than the average BS weapon so the option will still be there for the once-in-a-blue-moon circle-jerking BS swarm even if fittings are increased .. let the T1 logistics keep the ability to use them, just not as for more than lulz/gimmick (kind of like the Heavy Neut Curse)
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Sheynan
Lighting the blight
88
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Posted - 2012.10.22 17:30:00 -
[280] - Quote
On the topic of Large Reps, and while rep modules are changed anyway, wouldn't it be interesting to double the standard RR range on all sizes ? (Of course with a 50% range reduction of range boni on logistic ships)
Just to encourage a wider use of RR on unbonused hulls. |
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Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
50
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Posted - 2012.10.22 22:18:00 -
[281] - Quote
I'm not sure if this has already been brought up, but if it hasn't here we go.
There is a large disparity between Repair systems in terms of Power grid and CPU.
In the existing cruisers,
the Exequror can mount 4 cap stable medium remote armor units but the Osprey and count 3 Large Cap stable remote shield units
3 Large Shield >> 4 Medium Armor
The problem only gets worse with the new lineup.
With these changes it will be possible to mount an Osprey with 4 Large Shield Transfer and 1 Large Energy Transfer.
2 of these working together will be cap stable and have 25% MORE repping than two 5/1 fit Basi
-FM |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
226
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 11:44:00 -
[282] - Quote
I'd give the scythe -5 or +5 drone bay
- that weird single light drone will be in the way anyhow and doesn't really mean anything?
Also I'd still consider allowing them to have a little more offensive stance should you want to.
If you fit your support cruiser specifically for combat it should not be an easy prey for a frigate or destroyer.
Apart from this I hope these ships won't be running large RR... Having only large RR modules being effective is against the Eve spirit and I suggested long ago to change so the smaller RR modules have better range/cycle time.
Pinky |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
2030
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 19:46:00 -
[283] - Quote
Some new adjustments to help manage the option of using large reps:
Lowering the CPU of all medium shield transporters by another 10% compared to the earlier proposal:
MetatypeNamepowercpu
0Medium Shield Transporter I4063
1Medium Asymmetric Barrier Transpositioner I4059
2Medium Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I4057
3Medium 'Atonement' Ward Projector4050
4Medium S95A Partial Shield Transporter4054
5Medium Shield Transporter II5076
11Gistum C-Type Medium Shield Transporter5076
11Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Transporter5097
12Gistum B-Type Medium Shield Transporter5076
12Pithum B-Type Medium Shield Transporter50100
13Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Transporter5076
13Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Transporter50104
Osprey: -30 cpu
Scythe: -20 pg, -100 cpu
OP has been updated.
As always thanks to everyone here for providing such great feedback for us.
These and all the other Cruiser, Destroyer and Missile changes are going to be on the Duality public test server this weekend! Come check them out and let us know what you think after flying them for realsies.
Game Designer | Team Game of Drones
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Sheynan
Lighting the blight
95
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 20:05:00 -
[284] - Quote
TO THE EFT MOBILE
Nah, looks good so far, medium transporters should finally become standard module and 1/2 larges are still usable for comedy/niche fits. |
Oxandrolone
Bite Me inc
53
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 00:13:00 -
[285] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Some new adjustments to help manage the option of using large reps:
Lowering the CPU of all medium shield transporters by another 10% compared to the earlier proposal:
MetatypeNamepowercpu
0Medium Shield Transporter I4063
1Medium Asymmetric Barrier Transpositioner I4059
2Medium Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I4057
3Medium 'Atonement' Ward Projector4050
4Medium S95A Partial Shield Transporter4054
5Medium Shield Transporter II5076
11Gistum C-Type Medium Shield Transporter5076
11Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Transporter5097
12Gistum B-Type Medium Shield Transporter5076
12Pithum B-Type Medium Shield Transporter50100
13Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Transporter5076
13Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Transporter50104
Osprey: -30 cpu
Scythe: -20 pg, -100 cpu
OP has been updated.
As always thanks to everyone here for providing such great feedback for us.
These and all the other Cruiser, Destroyer and Missile changes are going to be on the Duality public test server this weekend! Come check them out and let us know what you think after flying them for realsies.
niiiiiiiiiice
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Sheynan
Lighting the blight
96
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 20:25:00 -
[286] - Quote
In hindsight, this could potentially be the same problem all over again.
I haven't checked the maths yet, but with the lowered cpu of medium shield transporters, how easily can the new Bantam/Burst fit those ? And would it be a similar issue if they could ? |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe
Defiant Legacy
31
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 21:43:00 -
[287] - Quote
The changes to mediums does not prevent people from doing something like this:
[Osprey, WTFsprey]
Co-Processor II
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Large 'Atonement' Ward Projector
Large 'Atonement' Ward Projector
Large 'Atonement' Ward Projector
Medium Energy Transfer Array II
Medium Energy Transfer Array II
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Yes. With Meds you can free up some slots to get more ehp....but this configuration reps from 90km. This is a serious balance issue and should be adressed |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
340
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 23:16:00 -
[288] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Some new adjustments to help manage the option of using large reps:...
Would you mind walking me through what must be a very fascinating train of thought that brought you to that?
Issue: Possible to use large modules to considerably better effect than mediums.
Solution: Tweak requirements of mediums.
Huh!?!
Guessing that you think that by making mediums so cheap to fit that no real restrictions exist will make them preferable .. but that is not how it will play out.
The RR cruisers will see heavy use and as such will reach manufacturing cost on the market within weeks of launch, meaning cost to field them will be negligible. They will be spammable (ISK wise) in the extreme and will always "enjoy" a high attrition rate against which no amount of tank will help, but which can be alleviated by range and effect .. what was it again that large reps offered ...
Most curious  |
S1dy
Twinstar Universal Services
Ewoks
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 08:31:00 -
[289] - Quote
Deerin wrote:The changes to mediums does not prevent people from doing something like this:
[Osprey, WTFsprey]
Co-Processor II
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Large 'Atonement' Ward Projector
Large 'Atonement' Ward Projector
Large 'Atonement' Ward Projector
Medium Energy Transfer Array II
Medium Energy Transfer Array II
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Yes. With Meds you can free up some slots to get more ehp....but this configuration reps from 90km. This is a serious balance issue and should be adressed
You need a 5% Implant for more CPU, that's a high investigation for a t1 cruiser, not so viable in my opinion. But the fitting is cheaply possible with an 10MN Afterburner. Then again it has just 12160 EHP with 640 m/s. That's stupid low for a cruiser. A single right placed bomb could nearly kill you even with Invus online (you would end somewhere in the low structures).
Nevertheless, yeah, it looks something like a small problem. Maybe it's better to just restrict Large Shield Transfers on T1 cruisers? Then there is no need to take CPU and Power Grid and everyone could concentrate in tank and capacitor.
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Deerin
Murientor Tribe
Defiant Legacy
31
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 11:38:00 -
[290] - Quote
Quote:You need a 5% Implant for more CPU,
Weird....my EFT shows only 1% implant which is dirt cheap. You sure you used 'Atonement' ones?
Still....that much repping power from 90k range..... |
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Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 11:43:00 -
[291] - Quote
CCP do need to think about the overuse of oversized mods on ships you see it all the time with 1600's and LSE's there are two ways of fixing this problem either restrict large mods to large hulls or increase fitting pg and cpu to that of the large ships that should be using them.
I would like to see the T2 logis having to use medium reps instead of large ones also. |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
235
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 12:29:00 -
[292] - Quote
It's a good thing but really, really look into the relationship between small, medium and large RR modules: You basically use large or don't bother... Why? Because they have the advantage in not only hitpoints fixed but also in range and no real disadvantage in cycle times. I know it's an extra thing but keeping things like this won't help Eve becoming more interesting and getting back to it's core where bigger isn't always better!! |
Strange Shadow
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2012.10.27 01:17:00 -
[293] - Quote
About updated OP - thats not enough nerfing :)
Please seriously consider to lower repair range bonus to 500% instead of 1000%
That way T1 logi would be great for cruiser/battlecruiser roams (cheap fleet=cheap logi) and T2 logi would be required for battleship gangs (for more tank/range, since we already figured out they will have roughly same rep power), so at least both T1 and T2 will have niche roles.
The way they currently posted in OP, they are way overpowered for a cheap T1 hull. |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe
Defiant Legacy
31
|
Posted - 2012.10.27 08:43:00 -
[294] - Quote
Strange Shadow wrote:About updated OP - thats not enough nerfing :)
Please seriously consider to lower repair range bonus to 500% instead of 1000%
That's a good idea. |
Johnny Aideron
Gal-space
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.29 08:48:00 -
[295] - Quote
Why does the Exequror have less total hp than the Osprey and Augror? Shouldn't it have more, being a Gallente hull? |
pussnheels
The Fiction Factory
677
|
Posted - 2012.10.29 14:07:00 -
[296] - Quote
nice but hey CCP can i have my skillpoints back i invested on training logistics lvl 5 on 3 different characters you pretty made the t2 support cruisers useless for now
Would have been so much better if you had waited till tou were ready to rebalance the t2 cruisers aswell
I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Strange Shadow
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
23
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Posted - 2012.10.31 15:43:00 -
[297] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:nice but hey CCP can i have my skillpoints back i invested on training logistics lvl 5 on 3 different characters you pretty made the t2 support cruisers useless for now
Would have been so much better if you had waited till tou were ready to rebalance the t2 cruisers aswell
Well actually, proposed scythe has more bonuses to shield transfer than current scimitar. Yeah really, go ahead and compare.
I mean seriously, either adjust tech2 logistics accordingly in the same expansion, or seriously reconsider those stats, they are really insane and unbalanced. Up until now, peoples had no other means to properly rep things other than tech2 logi, and now you make all of them so irrelevant in one go..... |
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
105
|
Posted - 2012.10.31 22:24:00 -
[298] - Quote
Strange Shadow wrote:pussnheels wrote:nice but hey CCP can i have my skillpoints back i invested on training logistics lvl 5 on 3 different characters you pretty made the t2 support cruisers useless for now
Would have been so much better if you had waited till tou were ready to rebalance the t2 cruisers aswell Well actually, proposed scythe has more bonuses to shield transfer than current scimitar. Yeah really, go ahead and compare. I mean seriously, either adjust tech2 logistics accordingly in the same expansion, or seriously reconsider those stats, they are really insane and unbalanced. Up until now, peoples had no other means to properly rep things other than tech2 logi, and now you make all of them so irrelevant in one go.....
Just looking at the stats "omg they get a bonus to reps, this'll be sooo terrible" is maybe not the best approach.
With Fozzie's iteration there is no viable Scythe fit that reps more than a Scimitar (You can make one, but it consists of nothing but cap and fitting mods).
Ok, you could use something like this:
[Scythe, large transfers, MWD, eccm]
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Co-Processor II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Cap Recharger II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
[empty high slot]
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Usable, but still horribly gimped, you have about 7,5k ehp, terrible resists, terrible sensor strength and terrible cap.
It's usable because it however does rep 17% more than a standard 3rep Scimitar, reps to 90km and goes 3k m/s.
But hey, fly this and you'll be happy to survive just one tornado volley... not to speak of any enemy ewar, fast ships or whatever.
Even a Taranis could tear this up in notime.
The current iteration and fits like the one posted above leave an interesting niche for logi work. But it's far from being the doom of all T2 logistics. |
Strange Shadow
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
25
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 02:30:00 -
[299] - Quote
Sheynan wrote:Strange Shadow wrote:pussnheels wrote:nice but hey CCP can i have my skillpoints back i invested on training logistics lvl 5 on 3 different characters you pretty made the t2 support cruisers useless for now
Would have been so much better if you had waited till tou were ready to rebalance the t2 cruisers aswell Well actually, proposed scythe has more bonuses to shield transfer than current scimitar. Yeah really, go ahead and compare. I mean seriously, either adjust tech2 logistics accordingly in the same expansion, or seriously reconsider those stats, they are really insane and unbalanced. Up until now, peoples had no other means to properly rep things other than tech2 logi, and now you make all of them so irrelevant in one go..... Just looking at the stats "omg they get a bonus to reps, this'll be sooo terrible" is maybe not the best approach. .
Actually it is. Its obvious tech1 logi is way too overpowered with so many bonuses, that even tech2 ships doesnt have that much, especially so specialized in one field.
About fit - somewhat agree, but only somewhat. That fit is actually viable, and will work very well, because of 1000% RANGE BONUS. That scythe will just stay 70k+ behind (it CAN rep upto 84k, right?), and unless you bring something that can reliably shoot that far (which is, in turn, will be gimped ship that will be unable to track up close the entire fleet that is upon it), that logi is totally safe, and WILL REPLACE scimitar in most situation, since its so cheap and does so well with all those bonuses scimitar doesnt have.
So again, nerf range bonus to 500% to enforce some kind of buffer onto tech1 logi, or do something to scimitar (scimitar will have more uses with those tracking link bonuses??? LOL for supposed-to-be tech specialist), because its so way out of balance.
And ofc its not about scythe/scimitar only, same goes for all of them. I really think that make "tech one remote repair ships designed to operate alongside or instead of the famous T2 Logistics ships" (quote from op) is really, REALLY bad idea. PLEASE dont do that. No other ship classes designed like that, for a reason. People with tech2 logi (lots of them) will be so pissed about this, and for a good reason. No sane person will ever pair 200mil guardian with ANY augoror anyway, no matter how its fitted. So PLEASE rethink this concept, i beg of you. As it is, it brings only misuses and abuses of those overpowered bonuses, and will ruin the whole logistics profession.
POSes/other stuff can easily be repped with 500% bonus, so 1000% is totally redundant, same as those secondary bonuses to power transfer. Please, dont replace so-hard-to-manufacture, expensive, reliable ships we all are used to, with.... this.
Pretty please. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
352
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 08:21:00 -
[300] - Quote
Sheynan wrote:...The current iteration and fits like the one posted above leave an interesting niche for logi work. But it's far from being the doom of all T2 logistics.
You are right, sort of, provided nothing else changes. Problem that I and others I suppose have is that this great post-Jita-debacle balancing overhaul is in its infancy.
What happens when TD become omni-present due to getting applied to missiles, thus nerfing all ranges everywhere?
What happens when damps are finally brought up to par and ensures that no dps ever reaches beyond 50km?
What happens when ...
You get the idea. Reason why it i important to get these things right (or as close to) in the first pass is that the bulk of stuff is yet to come and having to constantly go back to reiterate on last months changes because otherwise **** wont work in Eve is inefficient as hell ... |
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