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Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris 2016	Posted - 2013.07.09 17:06:00 - [1111] - Quote The only reasons I can see for having pod pilots go in is the environment in there is complex and dangerous. The mind of a pod pilot is required to deal with the complexity, and the ability to clone is needed to deal with the danger. But I can see the lore modified as needed for all the options the Devs gave. What would we want in the way of game play and in terms of actions have consequences? http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
Aidan Brooder Dynasphere Ltd. 357	Posted - 2013.07.09 17:14:00 - [1112] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: The only reasons I can see for having pod pilots go in is the environment in there is complex and dangerous. The mind of a pod pilot is required to deal with the complexity, and the ability to clone is needed to deal with the danger. But I can see the lore modified as needed for all the options the Devs gave. What would we want in the way of game play and in terms of actions have consequences? Then obviously the development should rather be one that allows us to carry DUSTies on board our ships. A good reason to hire some of them into the corp then, because atm I don't see any reason for it. They are dangerous, they like to fight man-to-man, they have clones... Why make a capsuleer something he clearly is not? Meanwhile, give us some social zones! ;) There is nothing more meaningful than my virtual beer when I hit a station! Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE YouTube Vids (most recent): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2alSWxXQbI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEzNNYSlDE
Arduemont The Asteroid Solution 1586	Posted - 2013.07.09 17:36:00 - [1113] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: What enters the exploration site: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1569956#post1569956 "We do have various ideas regarding death within a site as there will indeed be dangers for you to overcome, including other players. (if we, Team Avatar, get our way) Here are some: 1. Death will be like the standard pod kill death but then that leads to the issue where your ship is still docked at the site. 2. You enter sites with a clone rather than your actual avatar. 3. You enter sites with crew members rather than clones." Well found. I concede. Except on the crew thing. Official lore is riddled with examples that contradict that one wiki article. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice."
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 4346	Posted - 2013.07.09 18:41:00 - [1114] - Quote Arduemont wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: What enters the exploration site: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1569956#post1569956 "We do have various ideas regarding death within a site as there will indeed be dangers for you to overcome, including other players. (if we, Team Avatar, get our way) Here are some: 1. Death will be like the standard pod kill death but then that leads to the issue where your ship is still docked at the site. 2. You enter sites with a clone rather than your actual avatar. 3. You enter sites with crew members rather than clones." Well found. I concede. Except on the crew thing. Official lore is riddled with examples that contradict that one wiki article. Keep in mind that with the introduction of DUST a lot of what was impossible in the original lore has evolved into a new current in game reality. Implants that allow transference without a POD being present for example (although a suitable clone storage facility needs to be in range, perhaps a module similar to a clone bay could be developed to fit to any ship doing exploration? It could carry a very limited number of "exploration class" clones... or even a rig I suppose.) To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris 2016	Posted - 2013.07.09 19:33:00 - [1115] - Quote Ranger 1 wrote: Arduemont wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: What enters the exploration site: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1569956#post1569956 "We do have various ideas regarding death within a site as there will indeed be dangers for you to overcome, including other players. (if we, Team Avatar, get our way) Here are some: 1. Death will be like the standard pod kill death but then that leads to the issue where your ship is still docked at the site. 2. You enter sites with a clone rather than your actual avatar. 3. You enter sites with crew members rather than clones." Well found. I concede. Except on the crew thing. Official lore is riddled with examples that contradict that one wiki article. Keep in mind that with the introduction of DUST a lot of what was impossible in the original lore has evolved into a new current in game reality. Implants that allow transference without a POD being present for example (although a suitable clone storage facility needs to be in range, perhaps a module similar to a clone bay could be developed to fit to any ship doing exploration? It could carry a very limited number of "exploration class" clones... or even a rig I suppose.) I found many other examples where a Dev talked about there being a crew. I just linked one. As far as I know every time a dev answered a ship crew question, he said that ships have crew. Also note that I can be in CQ and clone jump. No pod needed. That implies either the process is supposed to be more involved, just not shown, or its an easy process that can be done most anywhere. The latter option makes the idea of "soft clones" more palatable, and fits with what we actually see in game. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 4346	Posted - 2013.07.09 20:00:00 - [1116] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: Ranger 1 wrote: Arduemont wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: What enters the exploration site: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1569956#post1569956 "We do have various ideas regarding death within a site as there will indeed be dangers for you to overcome, including other players. (if we, Team Avatar, get our way) Here are some: 1. Death will be like the standard pod kill death but then that leads to the issue where your ship is still docked at the site. 2. You enter sites with a clone rather than your actual avatar. 3. You enter sites with crew members rather than clones." Well found. I concede. Except on the crew thing. Official lore is riddled with examples that contradict that one wiki article. Keep in mind that with the introduction of DUST a lot of what was impossible in the original lore has evolved into a new current in game reality. Implants that allow transference without a POD being present for example (although a suitable clone storage facility needs to be in range, perhaps a module similar to a clone bay could be developed to fit to any ship doing exploration? It could carry a very limited number of "exploration class" clones... or even a rig I suppose.) I found many other examples where a Dev talked about there being a crew. I just linked one. As far as I know every time a dev answered a ship crew question, he said that ships have crew. Also note that I can be in CQ and clone jump. No pod needed. That implies either the process is supposed to be more involved, just not shown, or its an easy process that can be done most anywhere. The latter option makes the idea of "soft clones" more palatable, and fits with what we actually see in game. I always supposed that clone jumping from a station involved a trip to the on board cloning facility, as opposed to happening straight from our CQ. It would likely be required trip if stations became avatar friendly. Somewhat like the facility we see in the new intro movie. I had always assumed that long distance transmission of one's conciousness involved some fairly heavy bandwidth with a very stable data link (such as could be housed in your pod or in a station clone facility)... while short range transmissions (from planet surface to your command ship in orbit) could be done with the new sleeper based implant that the DUST mercs use. The latter has obvious applications for a clone designed for exploration, as you'd have a ship nearby. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai 1311	Posted - 2013.07.09 20:34:00 - [1117] - Quote Arduemont wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: What enters the exploration site: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1569956#post1569956 "We do have various ideas regarding death within a site as there will indeed be dangers for you to overcome, including other players. (if we, Team Avatar, get our way) Here are some: 1. Death will be like the standard pod kill death but then that leads to the issue where your ship is still docked at the site. 2. You enter sites with a clone rather than your actual avatar. 3. You enter sites with crew members rather than clones." Well found. I concede. Except on the crew thing. Official lore is riddled with examples that contradict that one wiki article. You got your lore wrong. I remember at least two chronicles where capsuleer crews are key. All these lives are fit to ruin. (A capsuleer investigates a survivor of the destruction of his ship and crew) Prosopagnosia. (A capsuleer plays wicked games with his crew.) That said, I already suggested the concept of drone clones (1, 2) as a sensible, EVE-ish way to enable hazardous activities within the canonical lore. CCP Unifex: -á"lurking single players (...)-áare the majority of characters on Tranquility" ...And so now we know why CCP hasn't done anything for soloers since Apochrypha.
J3ssica Alba Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 841	Posted - 2013.07.09 21:02:00 - [1118] - Quote Trading InJita wrote: The only gameplay involving an avatar that I want is with a titan. Stop trying to turn my game about internet spaceships into ******* hello kitty online. Unlike the other posters that actually add something to the discussion, you should delete yourself AND your main in shame. This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.-á Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
PinkKnife Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 365	Posted - 2013.07.09 22:13:00 - [1119] - Quote Bump for FINALLY getting the sleeve tattoo's in game, only took a year or so after they were done to get them thrown in the game. sigh One day, I'd like to actually have a use for my avatar, don't dictate what we do with it, just give us tools to use, be it common areas, or dungeons to explore in. Just,,...I dunno, do SOMETHING. It feels like we've gone 2 years without an expansion.
Deborah Bat-Zeev Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 21	Posted - 2013.07.10 09:50:00 - [1120] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: You got your lore wrong. I remember at least two chronicles where capsuleer crews are key. All these lives are fit to ruin. (A capsuleer investigates a survivor of the destruction of his ship and crew) Prosopagnosia. (A capsuleer plays wicked games with his crew.) The lore may say so to further illustrate CCP's sociopathic and socialdarwinistic hardcore Randian teabagger ideology, but as long as there's not a single hint in-game that there are actually other people on your ship crews can be considered non-existing.
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris 2017	Posted - 2013.07.10 12:48:00 - [1121] - Quote Deborah Bat-Zeev wrote: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: You got your lore wrong. I remember at least two chronicles where capsuleer crews are key. All these lives are fit to ruin. (A capsuleer investigates a survivor of the destruction of his ship and crew) Prosopagnosia. (A capsuleer plays wicked games with his crew.) The lore may say so to further illustrate CCP's sociopathic and socialdarwinistic hardcore Randian teabagger ideology, but as long as there's not a single hint in-game that there are actually other people on your ship crews can be considered non-existing. There is. In the new player experience one of the first things said to the new player is "You are the ship's captain, you issue orders and your crew carries them out", or something like that. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
Arduemont The Asteroid Solution 1587	Posted - 2013.07.10 13:31:00 - [1122] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: Deborah Bat-Zeev wrote: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: You got your lore wrong. I remember at least two chronicles where capsuleer crews are key. All these lives are fit to ruin. (A capsuleer investigates a survivor of the destruction of his ship and crew) Prosopagnosia. (A capsuleer plays wicked games with his crew.) The lore may say so to further illustrate CCP's sociopathic and socialdarwinistic hardcore Randian teabagger ideology, but as long as there's not a single hint in-game that there are actually other people on your ship crews can be considered non-existing. There is. In the new player experience one of the first things said to the new player is "You are the ship's captain, you issue orders and your crew carries them out", or something like that. There isn't really a great deal of point arguing this over when the devs and lore keepers clearly haven't made up their collective minds. The lore says both, and because this is a fictional universe they can both be right. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice."
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai 1315	Posted - 2013.07.10 13:44:00 - [1123] - Quote Deborah Bat-Zeev wrote: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: You got your lore wrong. I remember at least two chronicles where capsuleer crews are key. All these lives are fit to ruin. (A capsuleer investigates a survivor of the destruction of his ship and crew) Prosopagnosia. (A capsuleer plays wicked games with his crew.) The lore may say so to further illustrate CCP's sociopathic and socialdarwinistic hardcore Randian teabagger ideology, but as long as there's not a single hint in-game that there are actually other people on your ship crews can be considered non-existing. Also there aren't clues that we have a power source in our ships, but then the capacitor wouldn't refill itself, would it? CCP Unifex: -á"lurking single players (...)-áare the majority of characters on Tranquility" ...And so now we know why CCP hasn't done anything for soloers since Apochrypha.
Arduemont The Asteroid Solution 1588	Posted - 2013.07.10 13:47:00 - [1124] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Deborah Bat-Zeev wrote: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: You got your lore wrong. I remember at least two chronicles where capsuleer crews are key. All these lives are fit to ruin. (A capsuleer investigates a survivor of the destruction of his ship and crew) Prosopagnosia. (A capsuleer plays wicked games with his crew.) The lore may say so to further illustrate CCP's sociopathic and socialdarwinistic hardcore Randian teabagger ideology, but as long as there's not a single hint in-game that there are actually other people on your ship crews can be considered non-existing. Also there aren't clues that we have a power source in our ships, but then the capacitor wouldn't refill itself, would it? Actually, I hate to say it, but the fact that the capacitor refills is a clue. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice."
Ashlar Vellum Esquire Armaments 64	Posted - 2013.07.10 16:39:00 - [1125] - Quote Arduemont wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: Deborah Bat-Zeev wrote: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: You got your lore wrong. I remember at least two chronicles where capsuleer crews are key. All these lives are fit to ruin. (A capsuleer investigates a survivor of the destruction of his ship and crew) Prosopagnosia. (A capsuleer plays wicked games with his crew.) The lore may say so to further illustrate CCP's sociopathic and socialdarwinistic hardcore Randian teabagger ideology, but as long as there's not a single hint in-game that there are actually other people on your ship crews can be considered non-existing. There is. In the new player experience one of the first things said to the new player is "You are the ship's captain, you issue orders and your crew carries them out", or something like that. There isn't really a great deal of point arguing this over when the devs and lore keepers clearly haven't made up their collective minds. The lore says both, and because this is a fictional universe they can both be right. Actually, dev lore keepers made up their minds click.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai 1315	Posted - 2013.07.10 20:00:00 - [1126] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: Arduemont wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: Deborah Bat-Zeev wrote: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: You got your lore wrong. I remember at least two chronicles where capsuleer crews are key. All these lives are fit to ruin. (A capsuleer investigates a survivor of the destruction of his ship and crew) Prosopagnosia. (A capsuleer plays wicked games with his crew.) The lore may say so to further illustrate CCP's sociopathic and socialdarwinistic hardcore Randian teabagger ideology, but as long as there's not a single hint in-game that there are actually other people on your ship crews can be considered non-existing. There is. In the new player experience one of the first things said to the new player is "You are the ship's captain, you issue orders and your crew carries them out", or something like that. There isn't really a great deal of point arguing this over when the devs and lore keepers clearly haven't made up their collective minds. The lore says both, and because this is a fictional universe they can both be right. Actually, dev lore keepers made up their minds click. Takes a Eterne torpedo to the waterline and crewless ship goes down fast... CCP Unifex: -á"lurking single players (...)-áare the majority of characters on Tranquility" ...And so now we know why CCP hasn't done anything for soloers since Apochrypha.
J3ssica Alba Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 843	Posted - 2013.07.10 21:31:00 - [1127] - Quote There are little windows in every ship, with interior light and if you look closely enough you can see the crew moving around in there. Just need to stare at the screen for a few hours. This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.-á Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
Flamespar Woof Club 624	Posted - 2013.07.11 02:57:00 - [1128] - Quote I used to be able to open the door of my captains quarters then I took an arrow to the knee I can post on a forum, therefore I represent everyone.
RAP ACTION HERO 185	Posted - 2013.07.11 04:23:00 - [1129] - Quote i used to post tired memes but then i am a barbie lover. vitoc erryday
Arduemont The Asteroid Solution 1588	Posted - 2013.07.11 13:25:00 - [1130] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: Arduemont wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: Deborah Bat-Zeev wrote: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: You got your lore wrong. I remember at least two chronicles where capsuleer crews are key. All these lives are fit to ruin. (A capsuleer investigates a survivor of the destruction of his ship and crew) Prosopagnosia. (A capsuleer plays wicked games with his crew.) The lore may say so to further illustrate CCP's sociopathic and socialdarwinistic hardcore Randian teabagger ideology, but as long as there's not a single hint in-game that there are actually other people on your ship crews can be considered non-existing. There is. In the new player experience one of the first things said to the new player is "You are the ship's captain, you issue orders and your crew carries them out", or something like that. There isn't really a great deal of point arguing this over when the devs and lore keepers clearly haven't made up their collective minds. The lore says both, and because this is a fictional universe they can both be right. Actually, dev lore keepers made up their minds click. Fair play, I concede again. This hasn't been a good page for me. They may need to release some corrected editions of their books and change a few entries in the Evelopedia though.. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice."
Broker Agent Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.07.11 13:26:00 - [1131] - Quote Arduemont wrote: I concede. Are you sure your really from the internet?
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris 2018	Posted - 2013.07.11 21:27:00 - [1132] - Quote Everyone interested in getting CCP to add some avatar related content, see the crowd sourcing thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=257924&find=unread and add your suggestion to it. Use keywords like "Avatar" "WIS" "Incarna". http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai 1319	Posted - 2013.07.11 22:14:00 - [1133] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: Everyone interested in getting CCP to add some avatar related content, see the crowd sourcing thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=257924&find=unread and add your suggestion to it. Use keywords like "Avatar" "WIS" "Incarna". I suggest some coordinated effort to push a few features in the "easy" range. FAI, copy & paste all or any of the following: Suggestion: Deliver all apparel available as market tabs but not at NEx store/market Keywords: Avatars, character creator Suggestion: Deliver publicly the apparel that remains unused after being handed exclusively to FW LP stores Keywords: Avatars, character creator Suggestion: Additional make up and hair colors for the portrait maker Keywords: Avatars, character creator Note: blue/violet colors and fantasy hair dye colors (sherry red, lemon yellow, electric blue...) Suggestion: Additional body poses/stances for the portrait maker Keywords: Avatars, character creator Suggestion: Additional backgrounds for the portrait maker Keywords: Avatars, character creator Note: would like backgrounds suggesting large open spaces and bright backgrounds compatible with intense lighting Suggestion: Implement a web 3D viewer of the full body avatar at the forums Keywords: Avatars, character creator, web More to come tomorrow... CCP Unifex: -á"lurking single players (...)-áare the majority of characters on Tranquility" ...And so now we know why CCP hasn't done anything for soloers since Apochrypha.
RAP ACTION HERO 186	Posted - 2013.07.12 02:40:00 - [1134] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: Everyone interested in getting CCP to add some avatar related content, see the crowd sourcing thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=257924&find=unread and add your suggestion to it. Use keywords like "Avatar" "WIS" "Incarna". I suggest some coordinated effort to push a few features in the "easy" range. FAI, copy & paste all or any of the following: Suggestion: Deliver all apparel available as market tabs but not at NEx store/market Keywords: Avatars, character creator Suggestion: Deliver publicly the apparel that remains unused after being handed exclusively to FW LP stores Keywords: Avatars, character creator Suggestion: Additional make up and hair colors for the portrait maker Keywords: Avatars, character creator Note: blue/violet colors and fantasy hair dye colors (sherry red, lemon yellow, electric blue...) Suggestion: Additional body poses/stances for the portrait maker Keywords: Avatars, character creator Suggestion: Additional backgrounds for the portrait maker Keywords: Avatars, character creator Note: would like backgrounds suggesting large open spaces and bright backgrounds compatible with intense lighting Suggestion: Implement a web 3D viewer of the full body avatar at the forums Keywords: Avatars, character creator, web More to come tomorrow... did you miss the keyword content? vitoc erryday
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai 1322	Posted - 2013.07.12 06:58:00 - [1135] - Quote RAP ACTION HERO wrote: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: Everyone interested in getting CCP to add some avatar related content, see the crowd sourcing thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=257924&find=unread and add your suggestion to it. Use keywords like "Avatar" "WIS" "Incarna". I suggest some coordinated effort to push a few features in the "easy" range. FAI, copy & paste all or any of the following: Suggestion: Deliver all apparel available as market tabs but not at NEx store/market Keywords: Avatars, character creator Suggestion: Deliver publicly the apparel that remains unused after being handed exclusively to FW LP stores Keywords: Avatars, character creator Suggestion: Additional make up and hair colors for the portrait maker Keywords: Avatars, character creator Note: blue/violet colors and fantasy hair dye colors (sherry red, lemon yellow, electric blue...) Suggestion: Additional body poses/stances for the portrait maker Keywords: Avatars, character creator Suggestion: Additional backgrounds for the portrait maker Keywords: Avatars, character creator Note: would like backgrounds suggesting large open spaces and bright backgrounds compatible with intense lighting Suggestion: Implement a web 3D viewer of the full body avatar at the forums Keywords: Avatars, character creator, web More to come tomorrow... did you miss the keyword content? What do you mean? CCP Unifex: -á"lurking single players (...)-áare the majority of characters on Tranquility" ...And so now we know why CCP hasn't done anything for soloers since Apochrypha.
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris 2024	Posted - 2013.07.12 15:07:00 - [1136] - Quote As its not just a "Little things" thread, but also a "medium things" thread, including some medium things can be done too. Such as Suggestion: Add public meeting areas for multiple avatars. Let the role players provide the content. Keywords: Avatars, WIS, Incarna Suggestion: Add alliance and corporate offices for multiple avatars, possibly including planning tools or a market limited to the alliance or corporation. Keywords: Avatars, WIS, Incarna Suggestion: Add establishments to stations for multiple avatars. Allow contraband items to be sold there, with player enforcement of the customs laws in space when such items are transported. Keywords: Avatars, WIS, Incarna http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
Flamespar Woof Club 631	Posted - 2013.07.18 02:54:00 - [1137] - Quote Added a few items. It will be interesting to see what comes of this process. I can post on a forum, therefore I represent everyone.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai 1386	Posted - 2013.07.18 06:56:00 - [1138] - Quote Flamespar wrote: Added a few items. It will be interesting to see what comes of this process. Oh, it's easy to foretell. CSM builds up the 99 bullet point list, notices that there are a few little posts asking for avatar content: Case A: "They're so few, let them have a try because everything else is overly overrepresented" Case B: "They're so few, let's rather add a point to iterate diminutive features 4,608, 4,609 and 4,610 instead of anyhting avatar related" With the current CSM, case B is almost granted, and I'll let you imagine Malcanis telling us why it is our fault, in a demeaning, patronizing tone. CCP Unifex: -á"lurking single players (...)-áare the majority of characters on Tranquility" ...And so now we know why CCP hasn't done anything for soloers since Apochrypha.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 15584	Posted - 2013.07.18 07:00:00 - [1139] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: With the current CSM, case B is almost granted, and I'll let you imagine Malcanis telling us why it is our fault, in a demeaning, patronizing tone. GÇªexcept that Malc sees a lot of promise in WIS GÇö just not in the meaningless waste of dev resources. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.
Jill Xelitras Xeltec services Russian International Allegiance 139	Posted - 2013.07.18 09:16:00 - [1140] - Quote Tippia wrote: GÇªexcept that Malc sees a lot of promise in WIS GÇö just not in the meaningless waste of dev resources. * Jill starts clapping her hands frantically like a three year old, that finally gets the ice-cream for which it has begged, pouted and cried ... - excellent, excellent ... fabulous Join the in-game channel 'The Greater Fool Bar' now.

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