Would you accept no for an answer without making an issue about it ?

I want to make it clear that this is not a final list. As we go through design and implementation phases some things may require more work than initially expected and others may not hold water in the design phase and therefore may not make it into this particular expansion. Similarly some things might get added to the list. We will keep you updated on our progress every step of the way because, as Hilmar said, communication is one of the things we are dedicated to improve.

From Zulu



Emphasis is mine.

However, I would not be holding my breath. Incarna was initially supposed to release with all four CQ's. They are just getting around to releasing the other three. I would assume the art assets are quite a bit behind. Wouldn't expect to see Establishments until around the summer expansion actually.

Also, I'd like to point out that that "not a final list" is almost certainly there so when they remove something at the last minute, people can't say that the list was supposed to be a definite thing, I honestly doubt anything will be added.

Ugh, I'm starting to hate my posts. I'm becoming anti-CCP :/

I just found that the fact they said Establishments were coming this expansion, then them not appearing on that list, was kind of odd. You'd think something that was promised is coming would already be on that list.

You do know how long us oldtimers waited on WIS while it was promised to come soontm?I'd think next summer earliest to expect any big new content to the WIS so keep your hopes low is my advice , if you can't enjoy eve without the WIS then you've joined the wrong game imho.IT's there as a sideshow for the main game.

Based on the other dev blog, I'm willing to bet establishments are going to come when they're done, rather than rushing a half finished product out, which bit them in the ass already this year. So I'd guess no.

"We won't have Establishments ready by December, so lets do something easier and say we're listening to people. Win-win."

The squeeky wheel gets the grease. However, I think that this refocus of their time is well spent. They are still working on WIS. And I do believe they will have something out in about a year. However, I am excited that the actual core gameplay is being addressed. These are items that have plagued the game for years. I'm all for fixing the game before you add more stuff to it.

If you're more concerned about not getting WiS content then you are pleased by the promise of FiS improvements, I would like to kindly ask you to get out.

The future vision trailer was why I resubscribed to eve at the start of the year, but even I can see that that content is far far far less important then refining the game as it currently is. Hilmar's latest devblog has reassured me that I am not wasting my (or someone elses) money.

Lets see at the changes planned and then lets think how this could possibly hinder them to continue with WiS, if they felt committed:

Factional warfare --> mostly quest scripters I guess.

Yes, it is always funny to see the huge number of geniuses on this forum humbling me so efficiently.
I will now crawl back into my cave, embarassed by all the genius your postings on this forum usually express.

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

ItGÇÖs humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when itGÇÖs ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

ItGÇÖs humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when itGÇÖs ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.

That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.

That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.

That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.

I've only been waiting since 2008, it's not that I can't enjoy EVE without it, it's the fact that CCP always promises stuff then doesn't deliver. Now it was just the ultimate tease to me, as Incarna is something I'm really excited for, they kept saying that Establishments are coming this Winter, we already have CQ teasing us, and now it seems CCP has dropped Establishment from this Winter. Which, for all I know, may not be the case as we all know CCP isn't very good at being clear about everything, but if that is the case then I am severely disappointed.
It's the solitary thing I have been waiting for, the rest has just been bonuses to me, and now that it seemed it was finally arriving.. CCP decides to focus on the stuff those-with-the-loudest-mouths (or clickiest-keys? I dunno, lol) complained about.

I will always love EVE, regardless if Establishments come this Winter or not. Though I may be disappointed if they aren't coming any time soon, I will still play and enjoy EVE... Unless they pull this again, then I dunno, I'd probably be really pissed by then.

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

ItGÇÖs humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when itGÇÖs ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.

You didn't say you would focus on spaceships because you love your customers and value their feedback, you said it because your walking in stations project is a complete and utter disaster

The idea of Incarna (WiS at the time.) is what got me into EVE.

That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

ItGÇÖs humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when itGÇÖs ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

ItGÇÖs humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when itGÇÖs ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.

That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.

If you're more concerned about not getting WiS content then you are pleased by the promise of FiS improvements, I would like to kindly ask you to get out.

I think a lot of people were looking forward to establishments because they were such a blank canvas, and people saw in them whatever features they wanted to see. We (both CSM and the public) certainly never saw any details on the actual *gameplay* that they were going to provide, so everyone naturally assumed their favorite pet feature would be present.

I'd like to see a concrete proposal from CCP on what sort of *fun* we will have in Establishments before they make it into the game.

I think a lot of people were looking forward to establishments because they were such a blank canvas, and people saw in them whatever features they wanted to see. We (both CSM and the public) certainly never saw any details on the actual *gameplay* that they were going to provide, so everyone naturally assumed their favorite pet feature would be present.

I'd like to see a concrete proposal from CCP on what sort of *fun* we will have in Establishments before they make it into the game.

That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.

ItGÇÖs humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when itGÇÖs ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.

That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.

People do not seem to understand the scope and the amount of hardware it will take to make a multiplayer environement for Incarna in stations.


How many people are docked at jita 4-4 on a regular basis, or in rens or dodixie or amarr? How much server power do you think this will take? It will be a lot. 4-4 alone will probably have its own server. CCP is making the right move, fix the spaceships, get all the lost accounts and players back. Once that is done and people are happy again, then move full speed ahead to multiplayer in stations.

I think a lot of people were looking forward to establishments because they were such a blank canvas, and people saw in them whatever features they wanted to see. We (both CSM and the public) certainly never saw any details on the actual *gameplay* that they were going to provide, so everyone naturally assumed their favorite pet feature would be present.

I'd like to see a concrete proposal from CCP on what sort of *fun* we will have in Establishments before they make it into the game.

People do not seem to understand the scope and the amount of hardware it will take to make a multiplayer environement for Incarna in stations.


How many people are docked at jita 4-4 on a regular basis, or in rens or dodixie or amarr? How much server power do you think this will take? It will be a lot. 4-4 alone will probably have its own server. CCP is making the right move, fix the spaceships, get all the lost accounts and players back. Once that is done and people are happy again, then move full speed ahead to multiplayer in stations.

Even if the technology is there, what would people do !?

/dance ?
/poke ?

Seems like a lot of development for not much gameplay.

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

ItGÇÖs humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when itGÇÖs ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.

I demand my stripper bars!... erm... I mean gentleman's clubs!

That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.

Anyway, looking at it form a perspective. How many play EOH poker? why not be able to play it in game at a real table with avatars?

OR like in the eve forever video of having a war target comeing up from behind you and sending you to a clone vat because of a knife in the back.

But as they have stated before, drugs should not be on the market, they shoudl be done off the grid where no one can see you changing money.

simple stuff like that initially.

why use avatars when a regular window interface would work better?

That is what i needed to hear. Alts created and friends invited to EVE! :-)

i see this "there will not be establishment anytime soon" as "we finished first step of development of WoD technology" and "you will not get anything of it because you are test hamsters" and "when we finish all for WoD then you (maybe) will get some crumbs of that technology"

in one opinion... too much development time spent to give us one big NOTHING... and you said to us that you don't want to limit yourself in some time period to give us something of that technology... so... we are back at the beginning of "incarna story" many years ago... and this was not 18 months... this was many years old story and counting...

just a humble opinion...

/lapdance

Anyway, looking at it form a perspective. How many play EOH poker? why not be able to play it in game at a real table with avatars? OR like in the eve forever video of having a war target comeing up from behind you and sending you to a clone vat because of a knife in the back. But as they have stated before, drugs should not be on the market, they shoudl be done off the grid where no one can see you changing money.

simple stuff like that initially.

Would you accept no for an answer without making an issue about it ?

The sad truth is that WiS and avatars sound great and funky, but arent actually of much use in this game. We would just end up with an Ironforge where people stand still doing nothing until they are ready to actually play the game.

I think CCP have put a lot of resources into Incarna and realised now that the end result wasnt going to actually be any use.

...........

smuggling sounds like a concept at best and I wonder exactly how much fun that could be, surely it would just be walking to an avatar and back to ship ?

Why use spaceships when colored squares would work better?

That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.

Wait a minute, wernt th ecrying threads about how Incarna wasnt wanted and that rebalancing spaceships and doing all stuff liek thats was what should really be done? And now it looks like it might be, the same people are going to whine about how Incarna isnt coming out fast enough? Whoda thunk...

Wait a minute, wernt th ecrying threads about how Incarna wasnt wanted and that rebalancing spaceships and doing all stuff liek thats was what should really be done? And now it looks like it might be, the same people are going to whine about how Incarna isnt coming out fast enough? Whoda thunk...

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

ItGÇÖs humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when itGÇÖs ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.

Exactly. The entire idea of having gambling and contraband sales in establishments is to avoid having another "spreadsheet in space" type feature.

EvE is not a text based adventure game.

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

ItGÇÖs humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when itGÇÖs ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.

Honestly, I think the whole concept of incarna was wrong. CCP repeatedly stated that there would be no combat involved like FPS-style killing sprees.
Considering that the majority of eve players go great lenghts just to blow stuff up and watch shiny ships go boom I find it hard to believe that any of them would find a "pacifistic" environment for their avatars enjoyable.
If CCP wants the players to accept WiS, it will not work without combat.

Just incase there was any uncertainty, yes, we are refocussing on spaceships, but don't put your spacelegs away just yet, they will be needed

That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.

your stuff, contract it to me in Jita 4-4.

Just incase there was any uncertainty, yes, we are refocussing on spaceships, but don't put your spacelegs away just yet, they will be needed

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

ItGÇÖs humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when itGÇÖs ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

ItGÇÖs humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when itGÇÖs ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.

I am all for this Incarna stuff people complained about CCP not doing for many years before I even played Eve Online: a sometimes crappy game. I am glad to see the space ship crap being worked on, since you know, I am a starship captain and all that crap.

Just make sure you roll out that Incarna crap right and with **** people can do, maybe even with out blowing up our computers...

I want my Sexual Enhancement shop to be of the same high quality as the ding dongs I will be peddling.

But I want spaceship crap to be right/nice/fixed/cool FIRST.

Well, that sucks. I guess Ill be back when you guys get serious about avatar gameplay. Ive only been waiting 3 years (or whatever). I'm going to go wait somewhere else. CCP please don't bring incarna up again until you mean it. This tease has gone on long enough. Screw this.

Sorry barbie maniacs, you just got pushed to the back of the line.

CCP stopped focusing on spaceships, started focusing on Incarna.

Subscriptions canceled, log-ins dropped.


Sorry barbie maniacs, you just got pushed to the back of the line.

You should not dismiss everyone as a "barbie maniac" just because they want other features in the game.
I know many who quit not because of Incarna - but because the game got boooring doing the same stuff all over again.
There are people have something called imagination, ya know?

I have always been opposed to the very idea of Incarna. Eve at it's core is an internet spaceships game.

If you wanna walk around in a space station, go get a SecondLife account.

I was really worried that Incarna was going to become the focus of Eve's development. I was considering cancelling my accounts because of it. However, with this latest news, I will be keeping my accounts, and maybe even adding a new one.

TL;DR: Accounts subbed!

Yes, and if you take your.... *staying classy*.... If you care to read all that has been said again you will realize that Incarna was not scrapped, only put into its proper place on the development priority list.

CCP prioritized Incarna while there was still things to do. Now they are backtracking, and taking the proper path.

You should not dismiss everyone as a "barbie maniac" just because they want other features in the game.
I know many who quit not because of Incarna - but because the game got boooring doing the same stuff all over again.
There are people have something called imagination, ya know?

LOL - You did read my earlier doubts on avatar geeks working on FiS stuff, right? There is no "priority FiS or WiS" I think.
They use the FiS shouters so they can.. Ah, I give up. Search for my earlier posts. I'm tired.

Yes, and if you take your.... *staying classy*.... If you care to read all that has been said again you will realize that Incarna was not scrapped, only put into its proper place on the development priority list.

CCP prioritized Incarna while there was still things to do. Now they are backtracking, and taking the proper path.

CCP stopped focusing on spaceships, started focusing on Incarna.

Subscriptions canceled, log-ins dropped.


Sorry barbie maniacs, you just got pushed to the back of the line.

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

ItGÇÖs humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when itGÇÖs ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.

Sorry barbie maniacs, you just got pushed to the back of the line.

This is just a ******** thing to say.

Different players enjoy different activities in EVE. There is no point to dismissing their particular interest because you do not share it. Some players don't want Incarna, some do, some don't care, some want elements of both. Similaly some don't want to do planetary interaction, or mining, or pvp or PVE. We all have our favourite ways of playing the game, and I think it is one of EVE's strengths that we actually have all of these ways of interacting with the game.

Personally I have no problem with each group having their particular interests focussed on for a particular expansion. I just have a problem with the half arsed approach to satsifying their interests that has typified CCP for the last few expansion cycles.

I don't care about the content of the next expansion. I just want a polished set of features that actually - for once - meet our expectations.

You just **** off one part of the playerbase to please the other. This flip flopping won't work. FFS just one time finish the Project before you beginn another.

ONE SHOT to do it right, so they better hit it on the head the first time.


I wish it were coming this WInter, but the fact is it just isn't.

http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2011/08/some-curves-arent.html

Incarna almost killed EVE. Simple as that.

Close minded customers like you almost killed EvE.

http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2011/08/some-curves-arent.html

Incarna almost killed EVE. Simple as that.

Are you assuming that even a well developed implementation of Incarna in tandem with proper FiS support would kill the community? Because I'm pretty sure it wouldn't. CCP, so far as they say, have learned from their mistakes. Seeing as how Incarna's poor implementation promoted no growth whatsoever, it would be foolish to assume that they would repeat the same error.

I agree. And's it pretty lazy analysis to point the finger at Incarna and say it killed EVE, when if you bothred to remove your head from your arse before looking at that graph that it is obvious that the roots of EVE's decline in subscriber numbers began before Incarna's deployment, and is probably due to multiple factors.

Let's hope the decline in numbers doesn't continue despite the refocus on FiS. I think it will continue, as CCP has a lot of work ahead restoring faith and meeting their own hype before players start coming back.

So you'd need to walk down the hall to get to the market and agents would each be in different rooms and there would be a repair shop on the second floor and whatnot. The corporate offices were just going to be how you got to your corporate hanger. I doubt they had any clear ideas for anything significant and new that you could, or would want to, do in stations. I get how that might have sounded cool to them at first, I get that their marketing people probably went nuts about how that was the feature that would make them into the next WoW...

On top of this, when are those new nebulae coming out?

Reality check:

CCP is a relatively small , independant studio. They overstepped their bounds and bit off more than they can chew. **** happens. I'm not white knighting, just stating the facts. I for one am interested in Incarna, and all that comes with it. I also expect it to be executed at the same high standard that FiS is.

Growing the company to 600 people

Are you assuming that even a well developed implementation of Incarna in tandem with proper FiS support would kill the community?

If they try and do it at the expense of the real game then yes it will kill the community. If they can manage to fix and enhance core gameplay and add Incarna to that then it might succeed.

Well said. This should concern not just fans disappointed that WIS is pushed back, but all the people that are happy FIS is now priority have to wonder: For how long? How long until CCP flip flops back the other way without finishing FIS projects.

That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.

HAHA What a drama queen. Just stop while your ahead.

In other words, complainers are either new people or high-sec bears and those who are happy about the changes are EVE vets who actually play the game.

So, i guess it's time dilation for the winter expansion, then? Please that vocal minority who never shut up about lag in large fleet battles?

I imagine the majority of the playerbase who exist in hisec will be equally pleased.

High-sec players who live in high-sec for more than 2 years are clueless bears. Null-sec (and to an extent, wormhole space) is where the end-game content is at. Iteration in ANY MMO is about end-game content.

It is about damn time you lost your virginity already.

Not only did i respond in advance to this mentality, but i'm also currently a 0.0 dweller, and have been before as well.

It's about time you left your simple little paradigm. The real world is big and complicated.

Reality check:


http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672

High-sec players who live in high-sec for more than 2 years are clueless bears. Null-sec (and to an extent, wormhole space) is where the end-game content is at. Iteration in ANY MMO is about end-game content.

It is about damn time you lost your virginity already.

Players have been incredibly patient with CCP, amazingly so considering how often expansions have not met the hype (PI anyone? )

You know an expansion with the rest of Incarna, all the propsed PVP and null sec changes, and the new nebula, would be pretty awesome.

Reality check:

CCP is a relatively small , independant studio. They overstepped their bounds and bit off more than they can chew. **** happens.

So care to explain to me in detail what you think was the catalyst for Hillmar's letter? You are going to tell me that "people whined" and therefore CCP listened?

I thought EVE was a sandbox? You can call 0.0 "Endgame" but that would be a stretch.

Whats Endgame for a pirate?
Whats Endgame for a Market Tycoon?
Whats Endgame for an Industrialists?
Whats Endgame for a mission runner?
What's Engame for Miner?

If Im playing WoW, I know exactly what Endgame is.
If I'm playing EVE, Endgame is whatever YOU want it to be, thus the Beauty of the Sandbox that is EVE.

[quote=Alua Oresson]...
They should have just made their intention clear like so "Folks, we know you want FiS stuff, so let us just finish up what we're working on for WiS right now so we don't **** off people waiting for the WiS stuff we promised, then we'll get right to this FiS stuff you want, okay? Okay."

That would have made me perfectly happy.

I said end-game content.

Endgame content for a merket tycoon? I don't know.. selling super capital components with your own BPO's? Where will those be used? 0.0
For industrialists? Fabricating the above?
Endgame for a mission runner? NPC 0.0 missions.
Endgame for Miner? WH mining.
Endgame for a pirate? Killing ratting moms in 0.0 alone.

Those are the things from where you can progress no further in your chosen profession. Therefore, endgame.


Unless you plan to run level 4 missions in high-sec forever? Get enough money to buy a fully officer fit 30b worth paladin with max skills? Now what?


Endgame in EVE is about interacting with people. PVP, if you will. Because there is no end to PVP. PVP is where the true sandbox lies, where people take hold of their own destinies.

I never said anything about that. Where me and you differ is this theory of yours that every single person who is for and against this are all easily generalized about.

When a thread months ago asked what people thought the next expansion should be i responded that it should be something that justifies the existence of the QC. Now the CQ is going to be absolutely useless for god knows how long. That is, in a nutshell, my problem with this announcement.

Your posting confirms to me that all you do is cry and make tired arguments over and over again.

Stop. Posting.

Endgame in EVE is about interacting with people. PVP, if you will. Because there is no end to PVP. PVP is where the true sandbox lies, where people take hold of their own destinies.

The gear grind in WoW is similarly endless, and comprises what they consider endgame. Similarly, collecting things in EVE is the endgame of a player named Entity.

Like he said before, you can't just dictate how other people play the game in a sandbox, and force them into what the endgame is for you, just like you can't say everyone who thinks a certain thing are all identical people.

(...)
1: Tie into and ENHANCE current PVP and PVE content. Preferably affecting not only things like manufacturing, working the market, and agent missions... but also provide tangible benefits to PVP activities (whether in planning, making treaties, gathering intel, etc.).

To put it blunty.. I am pissed off that pew-pewers always ***** and whine for EVEN MORE stuff for THEIR gameplay. They should go play WoT if they just want to blow somebody else's stuff forever with no other goal than keep blowing somebody else's stuff.

WIS and FIS are not mutually exclusive

Endgame content for a merket tycoon? I don't know.. selling super capital components with your own BPO's? Where will those be used? 0.0
For industrialists? Fabricating the above?
Endgame for a mission runner? NPC 0.0 missions.
Endgame for Miner? WH mining.
Endgame for a pirate? Killing ratting moms in 0.0 alone.

Ok, i can agree with that.

Although i seem to have lost track of what your complaints are?

You see, the problem was releasing CQ in the first place.

You're just arbitrarily assuming that whatever happens where you hang out must be the end game... The end game for a market tycoon could be getting together $100b, and they could probably accomplish that most easily in hi sec. The end game for an industrialist could be cornering the market on a high volume item rather than a high value item. The end game for a mission runner could be soloing level 5 missions in space that is crawling with pirates, which means low sec. For a miner it could be coordinating a vast network of miners in hi sec. Etc.

You're right that some players get stuck in hi sec and can't really see that there is more game outside of the area they're comfortable with. That seems to have happened to you with sov null sec.

I'm not really complaining about things so far, but i'm about to, as i also agree with you.



I'd agree with that, and i think Hilmar even admitted as much in his blog.

But i'd take it even further to cover all of Incarna. Something they've been teasing us with for many years now, and are showing themselves to be be incapable of providing in any reasonable timeframe. They should have just never hyped it in the first place, and dropped it on us all when it was finally ready, or very near ready, and i mean, ready, ready. Not constantly giving the impression they've done lots of work on it, then later admitting how far very behind they are. Some of us, even non hisec bears, have been really looking forward to it, and it's disheartening to have it yanked away over and over.

I await these new vague 'space combat' things, but they'll have to be pretty goddamned impressive for me to stick around until more of incarna is released, because that's what i'm truly waiting for. It's not that i hate flying in space, it's just that i've done lots of that already, and want something new.

Why so you can promise more stuff and then 'push it away' when you miss your deadlines?

Since 2006 you have been promising Ambulation as it was back then, then the last 2 fan fests you've been hyping about incarna.. you've told us that we would finally be given the keys to the station that we could interact in a avatar.. that we could leave the ship and start to explore the OTHER side of eve.. and that you would be giving us the tools to make what we wished of it...


Now your saying sorry summer expansion was a big aprils fools joke.. and once again we are not finishing and deliviering on what we have promsied.


And yes I know people are going to flame me for this but I was looking forward to Incarna in it's full not for what it is at the moment.. but for what it promised.. Making more of the EVE SANDBOX into an actual SANDBOX. I love my Space Ships, but I also love being able to escape from that reality and Incarna if it was anything like they had hyped on about at fanfest would have given you something akin to what Second Life has managed.. only with better content and better graphics.

People seem to think that because there is no 'actual' solid game play defined by CCP that sorry it's not a feature.. but that's the point, Eve is not meant to be 'this is how you play, this is what you do and that is that' Eve is meant to be a Sandbox, it's meant to be 'here are the tools, go and make the game play you want'... and Incarna had the hint of that finally TRUELY becoming something.. from being able to put tattoo's all over my Avatar's body, to making an establishment to finally maybe making all those worthless dancers I have useful etc..

It had the possiblity of opening up entire new Industrial area's for those who are Industrialists... manufacturing entire new sets of items for the AVATAR side of the game..

and yet instead we got NeX and now we get yet another dropped expansion.. half finished and from CCP's track record.. never to BE finished.

Thanks for lieing for the past several years CCP.. and for getting peoples hopes up at a fantastic feature only to again scrap it.

I'm not talking about people's ultimate goal in the game. I am talking about a tangible glass ceiling.

You can aim at getting 100b.. 110b.. 1 trillion.. thats fine and dandy.. all possible.

But if you aim at building supercap components.. and you achieve that goal. Now what? If you aim at completing NPC 0.0 missions, and you complete them all.. now what?

If i conquer all of 0.0 sov. Now what?

there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun.

Forums ate my post (again)

Short version:

Jade Constantine is right

Excluding players input in a game like eve is a dead end

Players should be able to find items in stocks while doing missions, dead space complexes and creating them in one way or another selling those on to guys who have establishments. Thus creating an economy. Not unlike the gold mining in the 1800's. (reference to aurum yes).

- Blood raider uniforms and pirate hats, etc from missions/plexes

- executive skirts, boots, etc made by professions (with poly textiles and what not from PI)

- Dress Uniforms , ceremonial swords/khumaak, etc from faction warfare

All items should have flair, character and avoid to be to bland (like today)

There should be different clothing stores, tatoo parlours, hairdressers, manned by NPC's (slaves in Amarr) but doing the work you pay them for through your rent, buying extra tatoo's and clothes from guys who went out and found them. Mid level buyers would even be created to sell in bulk to big players/shops.

Illegal items would be smuggled in though low sec to be sold there to more seedy establishments/bars and backdoor deals like establishments. Incarna needs to be done when it is done, and not a second earlier. And as it seems completly redesigned.

That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.

Personally Ive been waiting for WiS since I started playing in 2005.

When I go reading and writing on other forums where Eve crops up, seems that a lot of non-eve players were all waiting for when that time came also.

I think we all knew it was a pretty bold objective, but we too are used to success from CCP, despite all the whining and moaning and hysteria that a minority of players and CSM cooked up, I honestly expected Hilmar to have the balls to continue with his vision.

Sadly, balls were dropped, future visions deleted. For what? Engine trails and weapon balancing? What a tragedy.

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

ItGÇÖs humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when itGÇÖs ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.

I really like the idea aswell but what would people actually sell or do their shouldn't it not be much better if there was actually content to sell or trade or if it had a real meaningfull use in the game , it will jusst take time to develop it

So CCp take your time and if the world doesn't end in 2012 i still will be there to enjoy what is coming

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

ItGÇÖs humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when itGÇÖs ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

ItGÇÖs humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when itGÇÖs ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.

All this is great stuff.

And you know the real kicker?

If items of clothing and avatar customization WERE actually player discovered/found/manufactured/sold and resold and completely integrated with the Eve economy then nobody would have a problem with them actually having some attributes and in-game effect.

Nightstalker goggles with small bonus to frigate guns?
Elaborate dress skirts with a bonus to fast talk?
Blood raider ceremonial robes with (shock horror) a bonus to lp for blood raider mission rewards?

Bring these things to the player exploration/production domain and out of the horrible MT/NeX corruption and we can adding actual meaningful items to the database again.

And the stupid thing is that CCP would STILL get some kind of income bump from RL cash rich players buying timecards and selling plex to afford the rarer stuff just like they do currently with pirate implant sets and flashy ships.

Absolutely everybody wins and we preserve the Eve economic sandbox.

Of course designing clothing with in-game attributes rather than out of game $ signs will require giving somebody the job of balancing/coding the bonus levels but how much richer and more immersive would it be deliver content in this way?

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

ItGÇÖs humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when itGÇÖs ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.

i would just say... CCP disappointed me one more time...
i was looking forward to incarna... and now squat...
look at this as big picture... we will get few patches (in one whole year) instead of big bang expansion of eve... (CQ are nothing without the rest of incarna)... so much time spent on nothing... and this patches are things that they can do in small time frame so that why we will get them...

and the most sad thing is that all ppl that i managed to invite to EVE... the last click before they said yes and created account was incarna and what i could be... now there is big chance that they are gone... ...and its so hard to get rl friends to EVE...

They indeed are when you have a finite amount of development time and resources to put towards it.

Well, my friends will not leave because of Incarna not coming in the so-called "Winter Expansion" patch.
We usually fly together in space almost every day and they have become quite addicted.

But just to illustrate for those who do not understand the fascination WiS has on many people:
- 2 of them played STO and RIFT before, 1 STO and AION. 2 came from WOW/LOTRO. All STO players agreed that EVE was the better SciFi Game, but all only joined after they introduced avatars and made the promise that said avatars could soon meet. Understand it or do not. It doesn't matter.

- First reaction when I told them that there would be no Establishments, not even a meet-in-person option, but instead what was on the list:

One said: "Well, at least a reason to look forward to SWTOR again."
The reactions of the rest were more or less: "Oh, this is an expansion? Looks like patches."
All were very disappointed. All will probably stay in EVE, because we like to fly together. But I'm not so sure they will want to "just fly" forever without any chance of social interaction you have in any other game.

i would just say... CCP disappointed me one more time...
i was looking forward to incarna... and now squat...
look at this as big picture... we will get few patches (in one whole year) instead of big bang expansion of eve... (CQ are nothing without the rest of incarna)... so much time spent on nothing... and this patches are things that they can do in small time frame so that why we will get them...

.... and the most sad thing is that all ppl that i managed to invite to EVE... the last click before they said yes and created account was incarna and what i could be... now there is big chance that they are gone... ...and its so hard to get rl friends to EVE...

i would just say... CCP disappointed me one more time...
i was looking forward to incarna... and now squat...
look at this as big picture... we will get few patches (in one whole year) instead of big bang expansion of eve... (CQ are nothing without the rest of incarna)... so much time spent on nothing... and this patches are things that they can do in small time frame so that why we will get them...

and the most sad thing is that all ppl that i managed to invite to EVE... the last click before they said yes and created account was incarna and what i could be... now there is big chance that they are gone... ...and its so hard to get rl friends to EVE...

Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that donGÇÖt want it). However, we think youGÇÖll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature wasGǪ well, not that fun.

you know where the door is. :)

Thanks for taking your time on establishments.

However, I'd personally be happy if you were able to release the promenade area for social gatherings.

I'm starting to get cabin fever.

:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoOyvRTA2Ps&feature=related

Aw you made me sad.

By reminding me what was once promised

Keep my post in mind when I say that the dynamic screens and avatars are very immersive. I like this direction. I do like that you are focusing on the core elements too... flying in space, faction warfare, etc... but you guys have got me hooked on the "dry" (non amniotic fluid) experience.

If I have $10 and I want some widget A and some widget B, I can buy $5 of each.