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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 23 post(s) |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
507
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:08:00 -
[541] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:I want to know what Kovorix thinks about this.
e: If he still plays this game :\
You know when a goon is saying a particular change makes small gang pvp too hard that something is really ****** up about said change |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
527
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:12:00 -
[542] - Quote
Also Grath you can suck mah dilz with your "It's only a three percent decrease in DPS" bullshit. I just compared my blaster Proteus fit to a version using T1 TEs in EFT and it's a 20% decrease in applied DPS at 24km using Null. On a ship that only hits for 263 dps at 24km as it is.
So yeah, the change does exactly what I was saying it would to kiting blaster cruisers-- totally eviscerates a ship that did mediocre damage to begin with. How ships like this are "problematic" under current mechanics is beyond me. |
Dead All Capitals
Kriegsmarinewerft Goonswarm Federation
58
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:14:00 -
[543] - Quote
Nerf Goons |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
507
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:15:00 -
[544] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Also Grath you can suck mah dilz with your "It's only a three percent decrease in DPS" bullshit. I just compared my blaster Proteus fit to a version using T1 TEs in EFT and it's a 20% decrease in applied DPS at 24km using Null. On a ship that only hits for 263 dps at 24km as it is.
So yeah, the change does exactly what I was saying it would to kiting blaster cruisers-- totally eviscerates a ship that did mediocre damage to begin with. How ships like this are "problematic" under current mechanics is beyond me. If you and Kil2 have a problem with the Talos (which is more understandable) then take it up with that hull. I'd prefer it if you'd leave the Deimos, Proteus, and Vigilant useable as shield ships.
Its even worse on amarr ships |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
579
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:15:00 -
[545] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Ok. Pay attention people. We have people complaining this is a heavy nerf to Amarr, other saying it will kill blasters, others saying it hits minmatar much more massively. Match this to the whining of heavy missile nerf and.... EVERYONE IS COMPLAINING
That pretty much means its balanced! Everyone is equally unhappy!
Congratulations CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise!
Proteus-boosted triple-TD Caracals for the State! |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
527
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:19:00 -
[546] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Also Grath you can suck mah dilz with your "It's only a three percent decrease in DPS" bullshit. I just compared my blaster Proteus fit to a version using T1 TEs in EFT and it's a 20% decrease in applied DPS at 24km using Null. On a ship that only hits for 263 dps at 24km as it is.
So yeah, the change does exactly what I was saying it would to kiting blaster cruisers-- totally eviscerates a ship that did mediocre damage to begin with. How ships like this are "problematic" under current mechanics is beyond me. If you and Kil2 have a problem with the Talos (which is more understandable) then take it up with that hull. I'd prefer it if you'd leave the Deimos, Proteus, and Vigilant useable as shield ships. Its even worse on amarr ships
Ironically it's an indirect buff to Minmatar ships, since their overall longer range means a Cynabal fit only loses ~20 DPS at 24km. Good thing all these publords are so excited about them "nerfing Winmatar" lol. |
Violet Winters
Angelic Eclipse.
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:31:00 -
[547] - Quote
nooooooo my precious machurial!!!! Violet Winters, sister of Kahlia Winters.
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Lelob
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
117
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:32:00 -
[548] - Quote
On a hurricane it's also about 22% lost dps at 20-25km. The affect of this nerf will be more and more people not flying tier 2 bc's in favor of t3 bc's, who will feel the effects of this nerf far less at kiting ranges. It's also worth asking people like Grath Telkin, who claims that 4km isn't a big deal about why do people:
a. not fit t1 tracking enhancers then, given that they have the same stats as the new proposed t2 te's b. why do people spend isk on faction mods that only provide small dps changes, far less then 22%. c. why do people train up skills that offer only 2% increases to falloff/optimal/tracking for 2 weeks at a time d. how much did you spent on hardwirings and faction/officer mods on your titan, to increase the range/dps/tracking?
The answer is simple. The changes and benefits these provide are huge. They are not small, they are not irrelevant and a te nerf, like all of the above, will have a very serious impact on the way the game is played and the way that ships can be handled. |
DR BiCarbonate
Basgerin Pirate SCUM.
55
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:37:00 -
[549] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I thought the stabber fit linked about would be an interesting point of reference for the TE changes so I was just fiddling with it a little bit and the results are at the bottom. I think its likely that you will feel this effect (usually between a 5% and 15% Im guessing) at typical engagement ranges for kiting ships like the stabber or the talos - but it seems unlikely that the role of the ship will be compromised to an extent that they would be abandoned. More likely, there will just be some extra room for ships like armor harb or armor brutix to have a role.
The fundamental ability to engage large groups with small ones won't change at all. It may take slightly more time to wear down ships that you isolate, depending on relative ranges, and there may be slightly more flexibility for tackling frigs to be on grid for longer, but overall this change shouldn't shift the meta much.
[Stabber, kiter] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II
Medium Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 5W Infectious Power System Malfunction 50W Infectious Power System Malfunction
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
BARRAGE 6.5% dps drop at 20k
3.51+37.2 with the old TE 187dps@20km 3.23+32 with new TE 175dps@20km RF EMP - 18% dps drop at 20km 1.75+24.8 with old TE 170dps@20km 1.61+21.3 with new TE 140dps@20km
oh lawd.... what the ****, i was actually excited when you said you got a job at ccp, then i saw this. are you not allowed to fit oversize tank on ships over there at ccp? medium shield extender...? hope thats a typo, or you should probably quit eve. sorry man. **** fit is ****.
looks like fozzie abandoned his own thread too, i should probably join PL, would make this nerf less ****?
Sorry for all the hate, but these 'rebalancing' updates are ******* horrid. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1391
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:46:00 -
[550] - Quote
Lelob wrote:On a hurricane it's also about 22% lost dps at 20-25km. The affect of this nerf will be more and more people not flying tier 2 bc's in favor of t3 bc's, who will feel the effects of this nerf far less at kiting ranges. It's also worth asking people like Grath Telkin, who claims that 4km isn't a big deal about why do people:
a. not fit t1 tracking enhancers then, given that they have the same stats as the new proposed t2 te's b. why do people spend isk on faction mods that only provide small dps changes, far less then 22%. c. why do people train up skills that offer only 2% increases to falloff/optimal/tracking for 2 weeks at a time d. how much did you spent on hardwirings and faction/officer mods on your titan, to increase the range/dps/tracking?
The answer is simple. The changes and benefits these provide are huge. They are not small, they are not irrelevant and a te nerf, like all of the above, will have a very serious impact on the way the game is played and the way that ships can be handled.
3km change in fall off, better unplug the servers, games over man, no hope left. |
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LeMorted'Authur
Federation of Free Miners Silver Dragonz
13
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:46:00 -
[551] - Quote
What this post needs is a " you are a ******" or "worst idea in the eve". one can push it and everyone sees that this post is a very bad change or suggestion for eve.
When I was a nooblet, we noobs could fit a fleet of rifters and place all different kinds of ecm in the mids, each ship a different kind. so eight of us noobs would have 2 sensor dampeners, 2 ecm, 2 tracking, 2 resebos. We go out and have fun. Force multipliers are important to eve and combat because some people hate large blob fights.
Kiting ships are sp equal kind of ships, yes a pilot who has the most sp has the better ship if in a equal fit, but most pilots are noobs in these kinds of ships so kiting is a very hard tactic of unskilled pilots to use, and by unskilled i am referring to the pilots skill of thinking and using a mouse, not ccp character skills.
These noob fleets I was once apart of is the reason why i am in eve still they were fun and I enjoyed eve never more than then. The Angry German only flies 6 accounts into HQ's sites not 16 accounts. I am sorry I was misinformed. DIN is a mutli box community which should not be allowed to have any say in high sec incursions. They have taken the most amount of MOM's then anyone.-á |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
527
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:48:00 -
[552] - Quote
Here's a thing: Three kiting cruisers using long range ammo, compared:
http://i.imgur.com/TSSEdNe.jpg
The two curves for each ship are current fit (T2 TE) vs post-nerf (simulated by substituting T2 TEs for T1).
The green bar represents typical kiting ranges (20km at the inboard, 36km (overheated faction point range) at the outboard).
Look how hard this nerf fucks blaster ships. Compared to any other turret setup. It's ridiculous. Scorch users lose nothing, AC fits lose ~6% dps, Heavy Neutrons + Null lose 20%... on the weapon system that did the least damage within this range envelope to begin with. The Proteus is worse off under current mechanics ANYWHERE outside 21km, and this nerf only increases the gap.
Keep in mind that the engagement envelope is a cold hard fact that is not negotiable-- any closer and you start straying into overheated web range (and exploding). Any farther and you lose points on your target and they just sort of wander off.
edit: None of those are outlandish / gimmick fits either. They're all things I currently have in my hangar and have flown personally. |
Lin Fatale
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:58:00 -
[553] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I understand the allure of hyperbole related to the death of the small gang versus the blob - but this change should definitely be considered in the context of a game where a gang with some standard cruisers and BCs with a couple skirmish links can engage at almost any ratio of friend to foe. Its fun to engage outnumbered (I've heard), but expecting a few extremely strong mods to do a large portion of the work for you seems a bit over the top. I like writing posts but I'm not sure its doing any good
dont focus on the "we really have to fix a module, just because its not 100% ballanced"
focus on the result and the result will be, that it will be harder for smaller groups to engage larger groups which will lead to less fights, force blops
it wont fix armor and any attempt to nerf shild kiting and hope ppl will roam with armor ships will fail
the priority should be, fix things which are really broken like the "here comes the daily naga fleet" or I can move my cap fleet around eve in 3 minutes
after that you can play around with little things like TE |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
562
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:58:00 -
[554] - Quote
Again, keep going strong with the great balance changes, you guys are making EvE a much better game. Players will actually use ships other than the few boring nano/shield ones.
The nano facerollers tears are normal, the some thing happend with the speed nerf a few years ago, the facerollers don't like balance. Just ignore them, they are bias as hell. |
Lelob
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
119
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 21:00:00 -
[555] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Lelob wrote:On a hurricane it's also about 22% lost dps at 20-25km. The affect of this nerf will be more and more people not flying tier 2 bc's in favor of t3 bc's, who will feel the effects of this nerf far less at kiting ranges. It's also worth asking people like Grath Telkin, who claims that 4km isn't a big deal about why do people:
a. not fit t1 tracking enhancers then, given that they have the same stats as the new proposed t2 te's b. why do people spend isk on faction mods that only provide small dps changes, far less then 22%. c. why do people train up skills that offer only 2% increases to falloff/optimal/tracking for 2 weeks at a time d. how much did you spent on hardwirings and faction/officer mods on your titan, to increase the range/dps/tracking?
The answer is simple. The changes and benefits these provide are huge. They are not small, they are not irrelevant and a te nerf, like all of the above, will have a very serious impact on the way the game is played and the way that ships can be handled. 3km change in fall off, better unplug the servers, games over man, no hope left.
How much did you spent on your titan hardwirings? |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
527
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 21:00:00 -
[556] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Again, keep going strong with the great balance changes, you guys are making EvE a much better game. Players will actually use ships other than the few boring nano/shield ones.
The nano facerollers tears are normal, the some thing happend with the speed nerf a few years ago, the facerollers don't like balance. Just ignore them, they are bias as hell.
Yeah if only we could all honoure-duel on the 4-4 undock in our active tanked Vindicators like you no doubt do. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2371
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 21:04:00 -
[557] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Here's a thing: Three kiting cruisers using long range ammo, compared: http://i.imgur.com/TSSEdNe.jpgThe two curves for each ship are current fit (T2 TE) vs post-nerf (simulated by substituting T2 TEs for T1). The green bar represents typical kiting ranges (20km at the inboard, 36km (overheated faction point range) at the outboard). Look how hard this nerf fucks blaster ships. Compared to any other turret setup. It's ridiculous. Scorch users lose nothing, AC fits lose ~6% dps, Heavy Neutrons + Null lose 20%... on the weapon system that did the least damage within this range envelope to begin with. The Proteus is worse off under current mechanics ANYWHERE outside 21km, and this nerf only increases the gap. Keep in mind that the engagement envelope is a cold hard fact that is not negotiable-- any closer and you start straying into overheated web range (and exploding). Any farther and you lose points on your target and they just sort of wander off.
Kiting Proteus, that's cool. You fly it like the 1600mm plate torp Vaga?
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
LeMorted'Authur
Federation of Free Miners Silver Dragonz
13
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 21:06:00 -
[558] - Quote
Lin Fatale wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I understand the allure of hyperbole related to the death of the small gang versus the blob - but this change should definitely be considered in the context of a game where a gang with some standard cruisers and BCs with a couple skirmish links can engage at almost any ratio of friend to foe. Its fun to engage outnumbered (I've heard), but expecting a few extremely strong mods to do a large portion of the work for you seems a bit over the top. I like writing posts but I'm not sure its doing any good dont focus on the "we really have to fix a module, just because its not 100% ballanced" focus on the result and the result will be, that it will be harder for smaller groups to engage larger groups which will lead to less fights, force blops it wont fix armor and any attempt to nerf shild kiting and hope ppl will roam with armor ships will fail the priority should be, fix things which are really broken like the "here comes the daily naga fleet" or I can move my cap fleet around eve in 3 minutes after that you can play around with little things like TE
Armor ships are fine as they are used, to defend home systems. Because of the cap requirements of armor ships (GAL/AMR) Most people learned that armor in large numbers and roaming is not fun because when a fleet engages is not determined by its best use of cap. So people use armor ships to defend their wh's and low/null sec systems when they are on the defensive. Where speed to them does not matter or needed. I agree CCP needs to look not at the balance of a modules but how it will be applied to eve universe as a whole. This is also very bad for small gangs, I heard someone referring to small gangs now as being under a hundred; I was like a hundred is a small gang. He replied yes.
Stop eve pvp dying to the blobs and keep some solo pvp. The Angry German only flies 6 accounts into HQ's sites not 16 accounts. I am sorry I was misinformed. DIN is a mutli box community which should not be allowed to have any say in high sec incursions. They have taken the most amount of MOM's then anyone.-á |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
527
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 21:13:00 -
[559] - Quote
Roime wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Here's a thing: Three kiting cruisers using long range ammo, compared: http://i.imgur.com/TSSEdNe.jpgThe two curves for each ship are current fit (T2 TE) vs post-nerf (simulated by substituting T2 TEs for T1). The green bar represents typical kiting ranges (20km at the inboard, 36km (overheated faction point range) at the outboard). Look how hard this nerf fucks blaster ships. Compared to any other turret setup. It's ridiculous. Scorch users lose nothing, AC fits lose ~6% dps, Heavy Neutrons + Null lose 20%... on the weapon system that did the least damage within this range envelope to begin with. The Proteus is worse off under current mechanics ANYWHERE outside 21km, and this nerf only increases the gap. Keep in mind that the engagement envelope is a cold hard fact that is not negotiable-- any closer and you start straying into overheated web range (and exploding). Any farther and you lose points on your target and they just sort of wander off. Kiting Proteus, that's cool. You fly it like the 1600mm plate torp Vaga?
Why don't you come find out? |
Lea Teisi
Wings of Independence SOLAR FLEET
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 21:19:00 -
[560] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Now for TEs. !
It is very sad if this is done. The percentage of ships that will be useless increase. |
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Frost 3
Desertus Caterva The Interstellar Trade n Terror Alliance
22
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 21:24:00 -
[561] - Quote
Im just going to say this.. This didn't seem broken to begin with... you want broken try fixing armor tanking |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2372
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 21:28:00 -
[562] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote: Why don't you come find out?
With bonuses it goes almost 3km/s, aligns in 5.5 seconds with the MWD on and it scrams to 30km with heat. Feel free to tell me all about how this makes it a terrible kiting ship.
Medium blasters, and total reliance on hardwires and links. And dies to armor Proteus, which scrams as far but has a web and way more tank.
Happy?
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
562
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 21:29:00 -
[563] - Quote
Frost 3 wrote:Im just going to say this.. This didn't seem broken to begin with... you want broken try fixing armor tanking
The problem with armor tanking is the overpowered nano abuse, they are starting to fix it. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
507
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 21:31:00 -
[564] - Quote
I like how this nerf does next to nothing to blob nagas and such, but is yet another change that makes small gang pvp more difficult. (Sort of like most of the tiericide changes)
Quote:
We have not forgotten solo pilots, even though this ship class does make things somewhat harder for them.
Quote:I am aware that any expansion of logistics capability in eve makes things harder for solo players, and we are endeavoring to make sure that these frigates add options to combat instead of taking them away.
Quote:Improving solo options without either killing fun aspects of group play or making solo too easymode is definitely a goal of ours, but the solution there isn't to keep the learning cliff facing support pilots.
Quote:I understand how much solo players rely on killing key enemy ships fast and how anything that helps gangs keep their ships alive is going to make solo harder. In the end I believe that the stats on these ships will make them managable for solo and small gangs to face.
Pretty much every new thread from fozzie has him saying "I know this makes solo pvp harder but I think its ok" |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
527
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 21:36:00 -
[565] - Quote
Roime wrote:Ganthrithor wrote: Why don't you come find out?
With bonuses it goes almost 3km/s, aligns in 5.5 seconds with the MWD on and it scrams to 30km with heat. Feel free to tell me all about how this makes it a terrible kiting ship.
Medium blasters, and total reliance on hardwires and links. And dies to armor Proteus, which scrams as far but has a web and way more tank. Happy?
Wow you're right it's useless, why didn't I consider any of this? |
Alxea
Blood RaiderZ.
117
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 21:39:00 -
[566] - Quote
More face to face battles yay! I hate when people kite... Grow some balls and fight within scram web range I say! |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
527
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 21:41:00 -
[567] - Quote
Alxea wrote:More face to face battles yay! I hate when people kite... Grow some balls and fight within scram web range I say!
~*sigh*~ |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
511
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 21:48:00 -
[568] - Quote
Alxea wrote:More face to face battles yay! I hate when people kite... Grow some balls and fight within scram web range I say!
Your entire kb is camping gates and killing frigates with a sebo legion |
maCH'EttE
Mafia Redux Phobia.
21
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 21:56:00 -
[569] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:I like how this nerf does next to nothing to blob nagas and such, but is yet another change that makes small gang pvp more difficult. (Sort of like most of the tiericide changes) Quote:
We have not forgotten solo pilots, even though this ship class does make things somewhat harder for them.
Quote:I am aware that any expansion of logistics capability in eve makes things harder for solo players, and we are endeavoring to make sure that these frigates add options to combat instead of taking them away. Quote:Improving solo options without either killing fun aspects of group play or making solo too easymode is definitely a goal of ours, but the solution there isn't to keep the learning cliff facing support pilots. Quote:I understand how much solo players rely on killing key enemy ships fast and how anything that helps gangs keep their ships alive is going to make solo harder. In the end I believe that the stats on these ships will make them managable for solo and small gangs to face. Pretty much every new thread from fozzie has him saying "I know this makes solo pvp harder but I think its ok" Baby run for CSM and you got my vote.
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Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
49
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 21:59:00 -
[570] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Alxea wrote:More face to face battles yay! I hate when people kite... Grow some balls and fight within scram web range I say! Your entire kb is camping gates and killing frigates with a sebo legion
Ohh snap! Shots fired.
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