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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 37 post(s) |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
2293
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Posted - 2013.04.18 13:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Stillman from Team Security has a new dev blog out where he breaks down CCP's policy on client modification and goes into details about what is and isn't allowed. So if you've ever wondered what's against the rules and what's not, check it out here.
Please utilize this thread for all feedback! New Eden Community Representative GÇ+ New Eden Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
278
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hooray!
On behalf of all the third party app developers out there, THANK YOU! |
Hosedna
FumbleFamily Corp
14
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
The wiki page states that cache scraping is forbidden. If I'm correct, popular services such as eve-central rely on it... Do you plan to release an API access to the market to make up for this ? Or many player developped application based on eve-central api will just ... die. And it's not going to be good for the market ! |
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
453
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hosedna wrote:The wiki page states that cache scraping is forbidden. If I'm correct, popular services such as eve-central rely on it... Do you plan to release an API access to the market to make up for this ? Or many player developped application based on eve-central api will just ... die. And it's not going to be good for the market ! Cache scraping is against the EULA. We will enforce it at our discretion. That has always been the case. Don't expect anything to change. We merely wanted to clarify the matter.
Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8712
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Death to cheaters. Please vote for me for CSM8-áhere
My recommended voting list |
Hosedna
FumbleFamily Corp
14
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Hosedna wrote:The wiki page states that cache scraping is forbidden. If I'm correct, popular services such as eve-central rely on it... Do you plan to release an API access to the market to make up for this ? Or many player developped application based on eve-central api will just ... die. And it's not going to be good for the market ! Cache scraping is against the EULA. We will enforce it at our discretion. That has always been the case. Don't expect anything to change. We merely wanted to clarify the matter.
It would just be clearer for anyone if a legal access to these vital market data was provided :) |
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment
391
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Can you give an example on when Multiboxing software can count as client modification? I guess when they manipulate the video stream to show multiple UI elements in one window? What about cloning 1 mous pointer to 50 clients?
with kind regards l0rd carlos German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
June Ting
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
31
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
One clarification question: is tailing chat logfiles (e.g. what evelocal.com does) considered acceptable?
And echoing what's been said about cache scraping -- this is going to seriously hurt market liquidity and arbitrage opportunities if eve-central.com and friends are forced to go down, unless CREST comes out very quickly. Proud independent player. I support Ali Aras for CSM 8! http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com/csm8 My votes: Ali > core > Jester > Monk > Nathan > Mangala > Storm > Arget > Malcanis > Korvin > Trebor > Mike > Roc > Fuzzysteve |
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
454
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Hosedna wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:Hosedna wrote:The wiki page states that cache scraping is forbidden. If I'm correct, popular services such as eve-central rely on it... Do you plan to release an API access to the market to make up for this ? Or many player developped application based on eve-central api will just ... die. And it's not going to be good for the market ! Cache scraping is against the EULA. We will enforce it at our discretion. That has always been the case. Don't expect anything to change. We merely wanted to clarify the matter. It would just be clearer for anyone if a legal access to these vital market data was provided :) Can't say that I disagree. We'd like to provide more data to everybody. But that's not my department I'm afraid, but is something I'm lobbying. Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1016
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'? |
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Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
279
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'?
Absolutely, yes.
Half the player population are now breaking the EULA. Nice job CCP.
This really is pathetic. How can you pop up and say half the player base are breaking the EULA and we will 'enforce at our discretion'? Please explain. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1295
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'?
Yes Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2556
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ban ISBotters
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
279
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
When will you be taking down your illegal Eve Market endpoint Steve?
lol |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
7790
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Time to read... and come back with questions.
/c
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
454
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'? Absolutely, yes. Half the player population are now breaking the EULA. Nice job CCP. This really is pathetic. How can you pop up and say half the player base are breaking the EULA and we will 'enforce at our discretion'? Please explain. Our EULA hasn't changed in this regard. This is the EULA we've always had. We have not outlawed cache scraping as of today. It has always been against our EULA. It's at our discretion as to enforcing it.
Team Security focuses on what we can do to stop macroing and RMT. That is where we will spend our time. So take that for what you want. Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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Atum
Apex Scientific Brothers of Tangra
74
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Cache scraping is banned.
Ouch.
This will cause rage of the highest order.
Everyone running Eve-Mon is about to get banned, as it cache scrapes by default. How are you going to manage that CCP?! Eve-Mon, Eve-HQ, Contribtastic... Strongly suggest revisiting this before whacking anybody with the ban hammer. I'm sure market bots scrape caches from clients in multiple regions as they play their 0.01ISK games, but until there is some sort of API/CREST mechanism to make this data available in somewhat real time (5min delay? 10min public cache?), a lot of normal players depend on this just to figure out where rare and "contraband" stuff is available. |
Selena Na'sharr
Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
0
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:24:00 -
[18] - Quote
What's the position on gaming keyboards with macro-capabilities, such as the Logitech G15? Its driver inherently supports some level of user-initiated automation. (in short, do I need to look for a new keyboard? :)) |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1295
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:When will you be taking down your illegal Eve Market endpoint Steve?
lol
EMDR, by itself, is fine. As it does no scraping. It does takes data from clients (like evemon) which do the scraping, but it does no scraping itself.
What'd be a semi-workable solution, would be for CCP themselves to feed data into EMDR. Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
279
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'? Absolutely, yes. Half the player population are now breaking the EULA. Nice job CCP. This really is pathetic. How can you pop up and say half the player base are breaking the EULA and we will 'enforce at our discretion'? Please explain. Our EULA hasn't changed in this regard. This is the EULA we've always had. We have not outlawed cache scraping as of today. It has always been against our EULA. It's at our discretion as to enforcing it. Team Security focuses on what we can do to stop macroing and RMT. That is where we will spend our time. So take that for what you want.
No, but you have spelt out clearly that you consider it illegal.
Previous official CCP posts have said that it is not illegal.
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
26
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:25:00 -
[21] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'? Yes
We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not looking for EVEMON users. Basically, please don't worry. CCP Peligro - Team Security |
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Roime
Shiva Furnace
2556
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
Imagine if you'd rely on actual ingame mechanics to play the game, what would become of it.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
Thanks for putting out this devblog.
It's nice to hear from Team Security about policies that seemed a little unclear in the past. It's also nice to know that multiboxing is allowed, and one can use software to do it provided it doesn't modify the client or how the game is played.
The cache scraping ban was unexpected, though. How are eve-central et al going to get their market data? I've configured my EveMon to not send in the market data now (and I assume any wise player will do the same). It kind of sucks that clarifications like these result in viable, useful third-party sites finding themselves in a position of being rules-lawyered out of being viable, especially after all those folks put in such massive effort to make something all of us players can use.
You've said that you're trying to lobby for getting Eve marketeers a feed they can use to get market data; did you consider putting a halt to cache scraping bans until you knew the outcome of that effort, or is it an instance where something bad out there is doing cache scraping (or using cache scraping to control something) and you need to act on it more immediately? |
Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
279
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:When will you be taking down your illegal Eve Market endpoint Steve?
lol EMDR, by itself, is fine. As it does no scraping. It does takes data from clients (like evemon) which do the scraping, but it does no scraping itself. What'd be a semi-workable solution, would be for CCP themselves to feed data into EMDR.
And you are happy to run for CSM pushing data that has all been obtained through officially banned means?
Isn't that a bit laughable?
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Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
107
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
Warp to zero autopilot? You can do that manually by warping to zero and clicking autopilot in route to the gate so your ship jumps when it reaches the gate. Disable the autopilot as soon as you jump the gate and repeat.
So this is an offending action now?
-edit-
I was doing this before the jump option was added to the warp to gate features. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2556
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
"Warp to zero autopilot? You can do that manually by warping to zero"
m8
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
279
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'? Yes We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not looking for EVEMON users. Basically, please don't worry.
And how will you tell the difference between an EVEMON user that you are 'not looking for' and an evil botter?
There is no difference. It is totally unenforceable. So why ban it? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1295
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:30:00 -
[28] - Quote
Caviar Liberta wrote:Warp to zero autopilot? You can do that manually by warping to zero and clicking autopilot in route to the gate so your ship jumps when it reaches the gate. Disable the autopilot as soon as you jump the gate and repeat.
So this is an offending action now?
-edit-
I was doing this before the jump option was added to the warp to gate features.
No. Having software that does it for you is an offending action. Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:30:00 -
[29] - Quote
Caviar Liberta wrote:Warp to zero autopilot? You can do that manually by warping to zero and clicking autopilot in route to the gate so your ship jumps when it reaches the gate. Disable the autopilot as soon as you jump the gate and repeat.
So this is an offending action now?
-edit-
I was doing this before the jump option was added to the gate warp to gate features. There is apparently a specific client modification that turns off your need to turn the autopilot on/off, so you can AFK autopilot-to-zero.
Kudos to them for finding that one, and banning the people doing it. |
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
454
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:30:00 -
[30] - Quote
Mechaet wrote: The cache scraping ban was unexpected, though. How are eve-central et al going to get their market data? I've configured my EveMon to not send in the market data now (and I assume any wise player will do the same). It kind of sucks that clarifications like these result in viable, useful third-party sites finding themselves in a position of being rules-lawyered out of being viable, especially after all those folks put in such massive effort to make something all of us players can use.
You've said that you're trying to lobby for getting Eve marketeers a feed they can use to get market data; did you consider putting a halt to cache scraping bans until you knew the outcome of that effort, or is it an instance where something bad out there is doing cache scraping (or using cache scraping to control something) and you need to act on it more immediately?
I want to clarify that the cache scraping ban isn't new. If you read the EULA, this isn't a new thing. It has never been allowed by the EULA.
In regards to enforcement, we don't have plans. It's not at the top of our to-do list. It's simply a case of while it not being allowed by our EULA, it's at our discretion whether or not the effort to enforce it is worth it or not. Right now, we're focused on botting, RMT, client modification that impact other players. Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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