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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 37 post(s) |
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse
PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
53
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:34:00 -
[271] - Quote
All only regarding multiboxingsoftware.
[...] You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.
[...] You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play
[...] As such, we canGÇÖt say that multiboxing software isnGÇÖt against our EULA. But the same goes in this case, that unless we determine that people are doing things beyond GÇ£multiboxingGÇ¥, we will not be taking any action.
So... As long as they dont use it to archieve results beyond what you could manually manage, it's all ok?
WHAT IS THIS BAND-AID ARGUMENTATION? Honestly, I love CCP and the stuff they are doing right now, I love the war against botting. BUT WHAT IS THIS?
You basically say, 'you must not do that, but as long as you don't use it to multibox more efficiently than usual, nothing wrong with it' --- Honest, logical question. If that software wouldn't enhance your performance, why pay real money for it?
So you have a pay-to-win-button (hyperbel) that you are absolutely fine with? (It kind of is pay-to-win, even the biggest dork has to admit that 10 vexors are arguably better than 1 vexor, ALWAYS) Please enlighten me, why this is NOT to ban!
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eddict
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:35:00 -
[272] - Quote
if they ban market data scraping without a live market data API the economy is dead .. simple as that. |
iskflakes
404
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:35:00 -
[273] - Quote
This policy is ridiculous.
Cache scraping is used to build up market databases such as eve-central. Without it we won't have any up to date searchable market information. Are you going to provide us a market data API? I didn't think so.
As the maintainer of a 3rd party fansite that makes extensive use of market data provided by eve-central, what should I do when the data vanishes? I may only have 400 regular users of my site, but that's 400 people who are going to lose access to a service they use regularly.
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Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
13
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:36:00 -
[274] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:The language of the third party policies post does not change the EULA. It simply explains the EULA more in depth.
I believe the third party polices makes things less clear. Based on the various back and forth here, I think a reasonable person would conclude the same as I have.
CCP Stillman wrote:We can't green-list third party tools. For one thing, doing so could make us legally liable for the actions done by third parties. So I'm afraid it's not just feasible, even if it would make things easier.
But, you, personally, were able to write a much better explanation of multiboxing in your Dev Blog. |
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
81
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:36:00 -
[275] - Quote
So much stupid is contained within this thread...
So many people who've apparently never read any EULA ever, and can't understand it even if they do...
So much whine....
Hold me ='( |
Frogs
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:36:00 -
[276] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:If your department doesn't have the capacity to evaluate and green-list third party tools then you need to avoid language that makes using any tool an EULA violation. The language of the third party policies post does not change the EULA. It simply explains the EULA more in depth. We can't green-list third party tools. For one thing, doing so could make us legally liable for the actions done by third parties. So I'm afraid it's not just feasible, even if it would make things easier.
This is so awesome. I'm going to get all of Test banned. I'll just sit in Delve and petition anyone that logs in changes a skill, then logs out as an obvious cheater. Clearly they used EVEmon (an evil third party tool that uses cache scraping and explicitly against the EULA) to know it was time to log in and make the in game change.
Thanks for this CCP. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3989
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:36:00 -
[277] - Quote
Isphirel wrote:What is even the point of having an EULA if your official stance is that most players are in violation of it, but benevolent as you are you won't ban most of them? Either have the EULA explicitly allow things that you don't intend to enforce (eg. things that are not botting) so that players who aren't botting can feel safe, or just throw it out completely and say you'll ban anybody whenever.
If your official policy is selective enforcement, then any written rule set is completely meaningless.
Actually, they DO say that they can ban you for any reason at their discretion, and you have been at the mercy of this policy since day one. You rely on them to not do so unless you are doing specific things (cheating/botting/hacking). That hasn't changed.
Yet we have not seen people panicing that technically they "could" be banned for any reason, at any time. That would be because people sometimes actually DO employ common sense, and have at least a modicum of faith that CCP does as well.
... and then this happened.
They clarified their common sense stance on the enforcement of their policies, and true to form many EvE players immediately devolve to the most ridiculous worst case "what if" scenario's that they can dream up.
Hang in there Stillman, eventually the more spastic members of the community will move on to the next "sky is falling" scenario.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors.
If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Caviar Liberta
Moira.
Villore Accords
107
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:37:00 -
[278] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Muscaat wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:
Trust me, we have no interest in banning people unless they are doing something that hurts the game.
Then why post all this crap about suddenly deciding that cache scraping has always been against the EULA and threaten to ban those who do it? This attempt to clarify the situation seems to have done anything but. Only if you are incredibly obtuse. Jesus, it's like a bunch of little kids nitpicking their parents... "but you said I can have desert" "I said you could have desert if you didin't get in trouble at school" "but you said I can have desert".
Its more in the lines of being told to rules about getting a desert when you are 5 but 1 of the rules says if you are caught running you get no desert.
The fine line being when does skipping become running. |
Lord Zim
2368
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:38:00 -
[279] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Half the player population are now breaking the EULA. Nice job CCP.
This really is pathetic. How can you pop up and say half the player base are breaking the EULA and we will 'enforce at our discretion'? Please explain. Our EULA hasn't changed in this regard. This is the EULA we've always had. We have not outlawed cache scraping as of today. It has always been against our EULA. It's at our discretion as to enforcing it.
What has been said previously is, and I quote (from http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=734561):
CCP Lingorm wrote:As long as you do not modify the file in question it is technically not against the EULA or TOS. It is only a cached version of a database method call.
If you do try to change it it will not actually effect the corp standings only the data YOU see in your client (which could cause problems for you).
In short : Yes you can do it, please don't change the file.
and
CCP Lingorm wrote:As long as you do not modify the cache files then you are free to read them and write tools for them. Of course we do not support these tools (*grin*) and if we change the cache file structure of methods they may break, not that I see this happening but it is possible.
And to make perfectly clear. If you modify them then your client may break.
Which part of technically not against the EULA or TOS is suddenly transformed into against the EULA/TOS?
CCP Stillman wrote:Team Security focuses on what we can do to stop macroing and RMT. That is where we will spend our time. So take that for what you want.
So which is it, am I on the EULA/TOS-breaking list or am I not?
Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.
RIP Vile Rat |
Beaver Retriever
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
51
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:38:00 -
[280] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:If your department doesn't have the capacity to evaluate and green-list third party tools then you need to avoid language that makes using any tool an EULA violation. The language of the third party policies post does not change the EULA. It simply explains the EULA more in depth. We can't green-list third party tools. For one thing, doing so could make us legally liable for the actions done by third parties. So I'm afraid it's not just feasible, even if it would make things easier.
Then ban everyone who uses them.
You can't operate with a policy where literally all your customers are breaking the EULA and you're merely deciding not to ban at this point in time. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13648
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:39:00 -
[281] - Quote
Frogs wrote:This is so awesome. I'm going to get all of Test banned. I'll just sit in Delve and petition anyone that logs in changes a skill, then logs out as an obvious cheater. Clearly they used EVEmon (an evil third party tool that uses cache scraping and explicitly against the EULA) to know it was time to log in and make the in game change. GǪtoo bad that there's nothing to indicate that they're breaking any rules.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Qual
Cornexant Research
Sleeping Dragons
19
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:40:00 -
[282] - Quote
EVE drama is BEST drama!
In the absence of good CAOD drama I would like to thank everyone who is worked up over this for providing much needed forum LOL's.
Much ado about nothing, as usual, of course.
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3989
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:42:00 -
[283] - Quote
Qual wrote:EVE drama is BEST drama!
In the absence of good CAOD drama I would like to thank everyone who is worked up over this for providing much needed forum LOL's.
Much ado about nothing, as usual, of course.
Spot on!
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors.
If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3989
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:43:00 -
[284] - Quote
Beaver Retriever wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:If your department doesn't have the capacity to evaluate and green-list third party tools then you need to avoid language that makes using any tool an EULA violation. The language of the third party policies post does not change the EULA. It simply explains the EULA more in depth. We can't green-list third party tools. For one thing, doing so could make us legally liable for the actions done by third parties. So I'm afraid it's not just feasible, even if it would make things easier. Then ban everyone who uses them. You can't operate with a policy where literally all your customers are breaking the EULA and you're merely deciding not to ban at this point in time.
Of course they can, and have for years.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors.
If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1902
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:43:00 -
[285] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:If your department doesn't have the capacity to evaluate and green-list third party tools then you need to avoid language that makes using any tool an EULA violation. The language of the third party policies post does not change the EULA. It simply explains the EULA more in depth. We can't green-list third party tools. For one thing, doing so could make us legally liable for the actions done by third parties. So I'm afraid it's not just feasible, even if it would make things easier.
The language of the third party policies post says that you may choose to "tolerate" certain programs or behaviors though, even if you don't authorize them.
Can we have a list of programs that you're currently tolerating instead? :)
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Raffiki
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:46:00 -
[286] - Quote
I absolutely don't appreciate the idea of changing a policy to one that everyone is in violation of, but then telling everyone it's ok to continue doing it. Unless we change our minds later. Change the rule and enforce, pissing off 95% of your playerbase and take the criticism that's coming, or don't change the policy. Don't make this sorta wishy-washy crap that means nothing except we're reserving the right to throw this rule at you at some point in the future but it's ok for now. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
551
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:47:00 -
[287] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:If your department doesn't have the capacity to evaluate and green-list third party tools then you need to avoid language that makes using any tool an EULA violation. The language of the third party policies post does not change the EULA. It simply explains the EULA more in depth. We can't green-list third party tools. For one thing, doing so could make us legally liable for the actions done by third parties. So I'm afraid it's not just feasible, even if it would make things easier.
You don't need to recommend the use of a tool or claim to know everything it does: you'd merely need to state that the use of tool X doesn't constitute an EULA violation. I'm not sure how saying "we won't ban you for using X" makes you legally liable for the actions of third parties, but then again I'm not a lawyer. Then again, neither are you.
Regardless, you need to come up with EULA wording that doesn't leave 95% of your customers in violation by default. Given that you already have clauses in the EULA that ban the sorts of activities you consider detrimental to the game (modifying the game world, accelerating or automating gameplay for the player's advantage), I don't see why your new stance on cache scraping is even necessary.
I don't really care how you go about correcting this deficiency of your EULA, but it should be done. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3989
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:47:00 -
[288] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:If your department doesn't have the capacity to evaluate and green-list third party tools then you need to avoid language that makes using any tool an EULA violation. The language of the third party policies post does not change the EULA. It simply explains the EULA more in depth. We can't green-list third party tools. For one thing, doing so could make us legally liable for the actions done by third parties. So I'm afraid it's not just feasible, even if it would make things easier. The language of the third party policies post says that you may choose to "tolerate" certain programs or behaviors though, even if you don't authorize them. Can we have a list of programs that you're currently tolerating instead? :)
The problem with list is that some of these pieces of software include things that can easily be used to go beyond their simple function as a utility. Providing a list opens a loop hole that would be much more difficult to plug.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors.
If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Daniel limb
Shoot Blues Every Day
Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:47:00 -
[289] - Quote
It's a good thing EveMon is the only reason I remember to buy PLEX every month.
What's that? It's on the prohibited software list? That's a shame. Let's see how long I can keep my accounts su |
Felicity Love
STARKRAFT
Joint Venture Conglomerate
480
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:48:00 -
[290] - Quote
Well, that should spice up FANFEST ! ! ! !
Huzzah !
Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies" |
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Jack Haydn
Valar Morghulis.
Goonswarm Federation
30
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:48:00 -
[291] - Quote
You guys do realize that you make yourself look pretty ridiculous when you point out the "not my department" line, right?
The various departments in your company can't cooperate (security and api devs or whatever the hell it is in this case) and therefore we as customers have to deal with this shizophrenic crap. Security puts up a wall around themselves and points to api devs, saying "Hey, this should be solved via the API, so we'll announce that cache scraping is a EULA bannable offence". The API devs, probably swamped with CREST work or whatever, put a wall around them, claiming "The stuff the players need works right now, we're working on something else and really don't have the time to change this".
The customer has to deal with two departments in one company who can't cooperate. The sane thing would be for security to say "Alright, until we get this stuff fixed on our behalf and until you can access the stuff via more technically appropriate means, let's go ahead and remove this bannable bit from the EULA. Please, players, until we get our stuff in order, go ahead and scrape all you want".
But nope, you rather ridicule yourself by putting out this shizophrenic, departmental behavior and point at each other internally, in public. Good stuff! |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2565
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:49:00 -
[292] - Quote
Frogs wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:If your department doesn't have the capacity to evaluate and green-list third party tools then you need to avoid language that makes using any tool an EULA violation. The language of the third party policies post does not change the EULA. It simply explains the EULA more in depth. We can't green-list third party tools. For one thing, doing so could make us legally liable for the actions done by third parties. So I'm afraid it's not just feasible, even if it would make things easier. This is so awesome. I'm going to get all of Test banned. I'll just sit in Delve and petition anyone that logs in changes a skill, then logs out as an obvious cheater. Clearly they used EVEmon (an evil third party tool that uses cache scraping and explicitly against the EULA) to know it was time to log in and make the in game change. Thanks for this CCP.
EVEMon uses the API to check for skills
It's your bots that you are worried about, and you should be.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
551
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:49:00 -
[293] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:
The problem with list is that some of these pieces of software include things that can easily be used to go beyond their simple function as a utility. Providing a list opens a loop hole that would be much more difficult to plug.
If someone is using a tool (any tool) that allows them to accelerate / automate gameplay or modify the game world they can already be banned for violating the EULA under the clauses that pertain to those sorts of actions. Where are you seeing a loophole here? |
Entity
X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
422
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:52:00 -
[294] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:War Kitten wrote:
Can we have a list of programs that you're currently tolerating instead? :)
The problem with list is that some of these pieces of software include things that can easily be used to go beyond their simple function as a utility. Providing a list opens a loop hole that would be much more difficult to plug.
Yup. My library for example, can be used for evil (by combining it with other things). I sincerely hope people aren't doing that though, I didn't write it for that.
And I don't expect CCP to greenlist anything really. They can't. I know that.
But this "rule by fear/terror" thing is not the way to handle the bigger issue (people abusing the otherwise harmless game data to cheat) here.
Punish people that cheat. Leave us 3rd party devs increasing the value of CCP's product go about our business in peace.
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Got Item? |
Cebraio
4S Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
289
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:52:00 -
[295] - Quote
Roime wrote:
EVEMon uses the API to check for skills
It's your bots that you are worried about, and you should be.
EVEMon also provides a market uploader that uses cache-scraping. Maybe you should be worried too?
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Mostlyharmlesss
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
43
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:53:00 -
[296] - Quote
I'm probably going against the masses, but I'm actually okay with this 'ban' on cache scraping. I trust CCP's judgement in determining what is a good app and what is a bad app.
That being said, I expect CCP to be very very very transparent down to a per-app level.
Also, as pointed out earlier in the thread, the EULA could've been worded better. |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
249
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:54:00 -
[297] - Quote
Roime wrote:EVEMon uses the API to check for skills
It's your bots that you are worried about, and you should be.
Evemon has a cache scraper to upload market data as well. You might not be using it at the moment, but it's still a program that is capable of using it. ie, you might pull a ban if CCP feels like banning you, with no warning, no recourse, and you're out however many years you sunk into eve.
The real botters I'm sure don't give a **** about this, they know they'll pull a ban eventually. And most likely move onto another account etc. |
iskflakes
405
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:55:00 -
[298] - Quote
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:I'm probably going against the masses, but I'm actually okay with this 'ban' on cache scraping. I trust CCP's judgement in determining what is a good app and what is a bad app.
If only they would actually tell us....
- |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2565
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:56:00 -
[299] - Quote
No, they have already stated that they won't do that. If you are worried, turn the feature off.
Anyway, Goon whine is obviously not about Evemon.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Slumberg
Enlightened Industries
Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:56:00 -
[300] - Quote
So to help in the fight against bots you are making the use of EveMon a permaban offense, but it probably may not be enforced maybe no promises. Also, multiboxing software is illegal when it is illegal and legal whrn it is legal. Thanks for clearing that up.
You guys are terrible. Please walk this crap back and apologize. Banning people for tracking their skill queue with third party software should literally be your lowest priority. |
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