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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 37 post(s) |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
459
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Posted - 2013.04.18 16:52:00 -
[211] - Quote
I like the "jaywalking" example. It is illegal but not enforced (in most countries) unless it is used or leads to other illegal activities.
But there's 2 things that could wise to make it less muddy.
First it has the be clear that access to files stored in the open and unprotected EVE folder (capture/fittings/logs/Overview) is allowed. (Otherwise it would be against the EULA to look a screenshot ...) Including using automated 3:rd party software to upload those files, or parts of them, to an external server.
The second part would be to ponder returning the "export to log" function, either as a button or an option.
Wouldn't add any new data or load for the servers and it wouldn't break the in-game limitation of only being able to see market data for the local region unless cooperation with other players.
CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil. CCP (aka Judge) Peligro: I will find your main.
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Reginald Zebranky
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10
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Posted - 2013.04.18 16:52:00 -
[212] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote: Our EULA is what it is. But if we were to make arbitrary exceptions to the EULA, that makes the EULA worthless. Misleading the player base about what the EULA entails is dishonest. We'd much rather explain what the EULA states and how it applies to different things.
what the heck? is this a joke?
So, you're *NOT* making an exception to the EULA re: cache scraping, so EVEMON *IS* a violation and thus a perma-bannable offence?!?!
....but you're not going to enforce it? "for now" because it isn't a priority?
Since I want to play by the rules I have to stop using EVEMON and looking up prices on web sites like eve-central.
Also, what the heck does that paragraph about multi-boxing mean?? It could not be less clear. You seem to be saying you can't/won't say if any particular tool is a violation. So, uh, what am I supposed to do? Do you really think that "you'll find out if it is a violation when we ban you." is a reasonable approach? |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1362
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Posted - 2013.04.18 16:53:00 -
[213] - Quote
Entity wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: Except of course that they point blank explained that they won't, and why.
You choose to ignore that.
Yeah, because policy made in a forum post that will get buried in time by many other posts and threads is so assuring, right? Oh wait! Edit: this post editor sucks so bad for reverting to old drafts randomly.
Well, they've said these posts are official, while older posts are no longer valid ... and of course, they'll never post something later on saying these are invalid, because who does that?
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Fade Toblack
Per.ly The 20 Minuters
44
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Posted - 2013.04.18 16:54:00 -
[214] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:IgnoreTheDroid wrote: Laws are different depending on where you live if you didn't know. e-Lawyer detected. Not everyone has the same consumer protection laws.
Which are not going to come into effect for a non-essential service like a game.
Actually it doesn't matter how essential the service is. The aim of consumer protection laws are simply to offset the advantage that corporate interests with deep pockets have.
Whilst we still somewhat get screwed over by the large corporates over here in the EU. It's a hell of a lot better than in the US. |
Wodensun
ZeroSec
88
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Posted - 2013.04.18 16:55:00 -
[215] - Quote
Quote:As well as 9.C:
You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of the Software, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet), or anything incorporated therein, or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System, whether encrypted or not, or permit any third party to do any of the same, and you hereby expressly waive any legal rights you may have to do so. If the Software and/or the System contains license management technology, you may not circumvent or disable that technology.
Does this include data mining the eve DB for new ships ect ? Also it mentions packet captures being prohibited but they are traveling over _my_ network and I'm pretty sure I can do whatever I want on my network including making packet captures using wireshark or TCPdump also a lot of EvE players play over their corporate networks which are ocassionally monitored and captured as wel. Does this mean that those players are violating the EULA? |
Zeph Bowra
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
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Posted - 2013.04.18 16:55:00 -
[216] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Cache scraping is against the EULA. We will enforce it at our discretion. That has always been the case. Don't expect anything to change. We merely wanted to clarify the matter.
Thank you and your team for doing so much to kill botting. Botting needed to go. Everyone knows/agrees with that because it's an automatic ISK generator that requires almost zero input from the player, and thus unfair to everyone.
However, by making the use of market analysis & aggregation tools and overview packs potentially bannable offenses, you have effectively curb-stomped some basic gameplay options enjoyed by the vast majority of your player base. Those tools do not give an easy-mode ISK button to anyone, and are therefore not in the same spirit as botting.
Those tools were created as a response to what's lacking in the Eve Online client. CCP doesn't offer any comprehensive in-game methods for sharing and processing market information with realistic tools. I'm assuming better market analysis tools than MetaTrader and ThinkOrSwim would exist in YC114. But they aren't in the client, so your players are forced to look to outside help for dealing with the realities of Eve's incredibly engaging "realistic economy".
When it comes to PvP, I, for one, don't have the time to make my own overview tabs and packs, let alone for all of my accounts. I rely on others to do that work for me so I can focus on what my gameplay specializations are. I simply don't understand how sharing little XML files that represent overview tabs and filters could be used to gain an unfair advantage over other players. We all have access to essentially the same overview packs, if one bothers to spam google for five minutes. Because, again, there is no in-game way to share and process this information.
Eve is so much about the meta-game. I'd go so far to say the only reason I play Eve Online is for the metagame. So my request to you is simple: Don't just permit the metagame, enable the metagame to reach its potential, within limits. You wanted to build a sandbox game, and you have, exceedingly well in fact.
Please give us a CCP-sanctioned way of accessing arbitrary data about the sandbox, beef up your API functionality and capacity, maybe even make it compatible with other real-world systems, and let us continue our relationship with you as it's been: we make the tools and toys to fill in the blanks you and your development team don't have time or resources to produce. It's been a functional relationship up until now. There is absolutely no reason any of us are aware of that would keep this relationship from continuing, other than the current EULA interpretation.
Thanks for your consideration. |
Muscaat
EVE Markets
37
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Posted - 2013.04.18 16:57:00 -
[217] - Quote
Wodensun wrote:Does this include data mining the eve DB for new ships ect ? Also it mentions packet captures being prohibited but they are traveling over _my_ network and I'm pretty sure I can do whatever I want on my network including making packet captures using wireshark or TCPdump also a lot of EvE players play over their corporate networks which are ocassionally monitored and captured as wel. Does this mean that those players are violating the EULA? Yes and yes (from my layperson's standpoint - though the second point is more arguable since it's not the player themselves capturing the packet data). |
Aurthes
M. Corp Engineering Fatal Ascension
8
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Posted - 2013.04.18 16:57:00 -
[218] - Quote
A question came to mind, and maybe I missed it due to the # of posts. Was this vetted through CSM 7? If so, was their opposition? If they weren't consulted, then why have a CSM? Is CSM 7 successful? I read the CSM rep who said he gave input after the decision was made. |
Muscaat
EVE Markets
37
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Posted - 2013.04.18 16:59:00 -
[219] - Quote
Aurthes wrote:A question came to mind, and maybe I missed it due to the # of posts. Was this vetted through CSM 7? If so, was their opposition? If they weren't consulted, then why have a CSM? Is CSM 7 successful? I read the CSM rep who said he gave input after the decision was made.
Two Step has confirmed that the CSM were not told about this in advance:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2899575#post2899575 |
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
478
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:00:00 -
[220] - Quote
Zeph Bowra wrote: Please give us a CCP-sanctioned way of accessing arbitrary data about the sandbox, beef up your API functionality and capacity, maybe even make it compatible with other real-world systems, and let us continue our relationship with you as it's been: we make the tools and toys to fill in the blanks you and your development team don't have time or resources to produce. It's been a functional relationship up until now. There is absolutely no reason any of us are aware of that would keep this relationship from continuing, other than the current EULA interpretation.
Thanks for your consideration.
This is something I would love to see. However it's not my department I'm afraid. I will however suggest this to Soundwave and Seagull. But I can't promise anything.
We're not trying to make people that aren't hurting the game out to be bad people. A lot of cool things come out of third party tools. But I also don't want the misconception that has been, admittedly as a result of a mistake on our end, believed to be allowed by the EULA. Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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Aurthes
M. Corp Engineering Fatal Ascension
8
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:01:00 -
[221] - Quote
Muscaat wrote:Aurthes wrote:A question came to mind, and maybe I missed it due to the # of posts. Was this vetted through CSM 7? If so, was their opposition? If they weren't consulted, then why have a CSM? Is CSM 7 successful? I read the CSM rep who said he gave input after the decision was made. Two Step has confirmed that the CSM were not told about this in advance: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2899575#post2899575
Then does CCP value the CSM?
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Elfaen Ethenwe
Eternal Rising Executive Outcomes
9
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:01:00 -
[222] - Quote
Entity wrote:[quote=Ranger 1]
Edit: this post editor sucks so bad for reverting to old drafts randomly.
You should make a 3rd party forum post app. Like tweetdeck for eve... You'll be banned for improving the service ofc, but it'd be nice to hear a little bird sing evey time CCP does something stupid. I hope it has big lungs.....
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Artctura
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
204
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:01:00 -
[223] - Quote
pmchem wrote:This 'cache scraping' stance is completely untenable. I am a third party dev. I help design / publish tools, such as http://goonmetrics.com, which players who don't want to lawyer-up the EULA will use. What am I supposed to say? "Hey guys, this is now officially against the EULA (where in the past it has generally been thought to be permitted by the EULA), but don't worry because it's just market data and not a botting program and there are a couple forum posts which say you'll be fine, honest. Oh but by the way if a GM wants to ban you nobody can help because it's against the EULA." This is insanity. CCP Stillman wrote: In regards to enforcement, we don't have plans. It's not at the top of our to-do list. It's simply a case of while it not being allowed by our EULA, it's at our discretion whether or not the effort to enforce it is worth it or not. Right now, we're focused on botting, RMT, client modification that impact other players.
What you really need to do is to modify the EULA to be more specific. Have it actually mention things such as "cache scraping in conjunction with botting". If you make pretty much every evemon user -- nearly every player of the game -- a EULA violator, you're giving GMs or whoever carte blanche to ban as they please. "Hey this guy was cache scraping, and someone somewhere said he was botting. But we know he was cache scraping, off you go!" Please, for the love of god and the sanity of devs who HELP PLAYERS ENJOY YOUR GAME and are TRYING TO DO RIGHT, fix it so extremely common, "CCP sanctioned" tools such as market data tools or evemon are not against the friggin' EULA. Really, who comes up with this stuff? Would you stand for this if you were a third party dev? How can you have a policy that makes it so tens of thousands of players can arbitrarily be banned, then say "don't worry it's not a priority?" If you were an EVE player, would you want that Sword of Damocles hanging over your account?
This deserves the full attention of CCP, and deserves it now. Artctura for CSM 2013 |
Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
215
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:02:00 -
[224] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:But I also don't want the misconception that has been, admittedly as a result of a mistake on our end, believed to be allowed by the EULA. You are wrong. The existing interpretation prior to this dev blog has been that it IS allowed. It is not a "misconception" it is you guys changing the rules. While this is within CCPs rights to do, let's not pretend that we have always been at war with eastasia.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=734561&page=1#9 |
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
146
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:03:00 -
[225] - Quote
Jitus Altus wrote:Manssell wrote:This is going to end up being like drinking at an outdoor street festival (in the US) and having a cop come over and tell the group that while we're technically breaking the law, as long as we do it responsibly, keep it in our red plastic cups, stay on the sidewalk, and don't cause too much commotion he'll look the other way. Then 20 technogeeks run up and start asking him so many damn stupid technical questions about what exactly he'll enforce, "can the cup be blue?", "what if I have one foot in the street?", "can I make a loud whoot?", "What about uncontrollable laughter, Is that too much commotion?", "can the cup be green?", "what if I have one toe touching the street while the rest of me is on the sidewalk?", that he finally gets sick of it and tells us we all have stop drinking altogether now. So yea, keep it up and I'll laugh when the rest of the cache scraping programs gets banned too. :cripes: Did you just discribe the Dutch Police?
HA ha. Funny, I was just in Amsterdam for the first time last month and had this same conversation with some other tourist I meet on the plane. Even though I tried to explain it to them, for some reason the concept of "just be cool, don't flaunt it, don't act like an ass, respect others and no one will care" was just too difficult of a concept for them to understand. |
Needmore Longcat
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
16
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:03:00 -
[226] - Quote
Stop breaking eve. |
Elfaen Ethenwe
Eternal Rising Executive Outcomes
9
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:03:00 -
[227] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:[quote=Zeph Bowra] But I also don't want the misconception that has been, admittedly as a result of a mistake on our end, believed to be allowed by the EULA.
So are you saying we were never meant to have a program like evemon/metrics/eve central etc?
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Fishsticks Fred
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
31
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:03:00 -
[228] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote: We're not trying to make people that aren't hurting the game out to be bad people.
But that's exactly what you're doing. As much as I appreciate the sentiment, it means nothing. |
John Dowland
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
13
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:04:00 -
[229] - Quote
While I realize all of this has been said before, the awesome idiocy of CCP's stance merits repetition of the following points:
-GMs are in practice totally unaccountable -CCP has a history of poor communication/decision making -A significant portion of the player base relies on market data derived from cache scraping -The in-game market interface is truly awful -Cache scraping alone cannot be used to "cheat" -The portions of the EULA under discussion are designed to prevent cheating -Taking a position against / creating a grey area around cache scraping does not contribute to the "War on Cheaters" -CCP should either change their position on cache scraping, or IMMEDIATELY release real-time market data via crest
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Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
243
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:06:00 -
[230] - Quote
I love the bot banning stuff, I really want Jita local to be readable, a simple request really.
But here's the thing: People develop tools to enjoy their game, mainly because they are not getting cooperation from the developer. (Which is fine if they're working on internet spaceships and not playing doll dress up.) You can't just say 'we will turn a blind eye to this because we're busy' and not give clarification to what 'this' is.
But to come along and say 'You can't use this function that other applications are using, because those are good, and you're bad', that's bullshit. There is either a clearly defined way to use this information safely, or you say nobody can use it. OR you have applications go through a vetting process to say if they are 'clean' or not for using this information in a 'good' way.
If you want to say some programs are fine, like evemon, fine, do that. But do it in an official way, like on that wiki page you posted. Is evemon fine? Can I go to http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/, he scrapes data from downloadable databases. Can I load custom overviews that look all fancy until I realize how annoying they are?
You can say it's all discretion until some small start up application starts getting used, then you ban everyone who has used it. It's like if someone started making an evemon replacement, and then you stomp it out of existence for also doing the market scraping, only because it wasn't popular enough.
Once again, I appreciate the sentiment of trying to do the 'right thing', CCP, but goddamn do you suck at communicating. |
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Danny Centauri
Huzzah Industries
75
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:09:00 -
[231] - Quote
Pardon my tinfoil hattery but I have a prediction: Stage 1 - CCP send players into a rage. Stage 2 - Players remember why the CSM is important and vote. Stage 3 - CSM magically appear and resolve things with CCP. Stage 4 - CCP praise CSM as a remarkable success.
Its a ploy to get us all to vote... I knew it.
/endtinfoilhattery EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players. |
Beaver Retriever
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
51
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:10:00 -
[232] - Quote
You should go ahead and just ban all of my characters considering I rampantly use the third-party cache scraping tool EVEMon. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13637
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:11:00 -
[233] - Quote
No, he isn't. He's providing a front-end to reading the DB without the user having to resort to raw SQL queries GÇö which is rather the point of the database to begin with.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Calmoto
Magellanic Itg Goonswarm Federation
19
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:12:00 -
[234] - Quote
CCP Stillman
I used mumble overlay to show me the names of the people talking after april 3rd, can you please please add me as an exception because i really didnt know about this
please i dont want to be banned |
DamnDirtyCat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:12:00 -
[235] - Quote
You guys finally recovered from Incarna and now you do this. Shameful. |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
243
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:12:00 -
[236] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No, he isn't. He's providing a front-end to reading the DB without the user having to resort to raw SQL queries GÇö which is rather the point of the database to begin with.
He's got it offline right now, but he sometimes posts stuff from the test server: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/sisi_changes.php
This is scraped data. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
548
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:13:00 -
[237] - Quote
Hey CCP, this is dumb as.
To quote Lincoln...
OHHHHHHHH!!! NOW YOU F***ED UP! |
Tuxedo Catfish
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
22
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:13:00 -
[238] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:[quote=Zeph Bowra] We're not trying to make people that aren't hurting the game out to be bad people. A lot of cool things come out of third party tools. But I also don't want the misconception that has been, admittedly as a result of a mistake on our end, believed to be allowed by the EULA.
It doesn't matter what you were trying to do. By making the functionality of those third-party tools a bannable offence, that's exactly what you've achieved, and as you might expect people are reacting poorly to the decision. |
Calichta Mei
Federal Institute Industries
0
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:14:00 -
[239] - Quote
You know, you guys from CCP are quite like our French government ...
Speaking before, and thinking after ... wich makes 70% of french fed up of their 10 months president ...
You can't say it's written in EULA, and then on forums, says you accept something wich break EULA, as for example the Eve Mentat topic on old forums ...
We even don't understand what is still allowed and forbidden.
We are not all code eater fans, and we even don't know if the third party software is breaking or not EULA, make a list of known Third Party, and just say if it's ok or not, and by the way, give more datas by API ... software will not have to use files on hard disk (cache). |
Fishsticks Fred
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
32
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Posted - 2013.04.18 17:14:00 -
[240] - Quote
It's funny because I saw something that said just yesterday that we were finally up back to pre-Incarna user levels. |
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