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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 37 post(s)
Tergerom Loregeron Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation 41	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:20:00 - [181] - Quote Lallante wrote: Esmilis99 wrote: You are a crappy lawyer then. Rules have to be clearly defined. If its unclear, then either side can use to its advantage (in RL scenario, if theres an ambiguity, the best lawyer wins). Now in a situation CCP GMs are the judges, and a player has zero chance of defense, it can easily get out of hand. Saying that everything is against the EULA just because CCP doesn't want to leave any gray area for criminals to abuse is exactly the opposite of a good policy. Remember that you cant discuss petition results, and technically any random CCP GM can go on a ban spree whenever he wants, and players banned have no way to reverse the ruling because they are technically breaking the EULA. It's not enough for a GM to post to a forum "yeah, trust us, you are breaking the rules but we wont do anything". I cant believe how many gullible naive people are playing this game. I kind of expected some more brains from the players of EVE, where you are encouraged not to trust anyones random ramblings in the forums, and look at things that actually do matter. lol If you're a real lawyer then I'm truly sorry for anyone who hired you in their defense.
Elfaen Ethenwe Eternal Rising Executive Outcomes 8	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:21:00 - [182] - Quote So coming to this thread mid fight, im seeing a lot of people who develop incredibly useful apps such as evemon and metrics very concerned about their app. What we are now all looking for is a definition that allows clarity to 3rd party developers. If that means that 'cleaver people' can exploit your definition in 3-6 months, then i suggest you look to re-assess your definition in that length of time. Right now eve does not offer the support to its player base that it should and unless your going to buy evemon, metrics, eve central etc off their current owners by issuing a vague definition you are forcing the player base to react by not using these services. That lowers enjoyment level for us all. I have 9 accounts running atm, I would consider it impossible for me to maximise my enjoyment. With the current state of this thread and lackl of clarity im no longer sure i want to use these programs because i could be pinned for botting. I'm not saying i will be, but 9 accounts and 9 years of work is not taking any risk for.
Fade Toblack Per.ly The 20 Minuters 41	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:22:00 - [183] - Quote Lallante wrote: At the end of the day, this statement that cache scraping is illegal is a statement of general principle so CCP can keep their options open and prevent abusive acts. It doesnt mean anyone is going to be banned for using EveMon. Cool. So you're willing to underwrite that I'll never be banned for something that EveMon does? As a RL lawyer would you ever advise a client to continue to do something that broke a law? Even is the risk of them getting punished for it was low? Of course not. And this is the problem - CCP are vaguely stating that the actions of _some_ software eg EveMon is currently OK. Whereas, they should be stating that EveMon clearly breaks the EULA. They don't want to announce that because bad-PR. So they should be giving EveMon an amnesty in some other way (eg a specific 1 month amnesty)
Arkon Olacar Imperial Guardians Tribal Band 206	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:24:00 - [184] - Quote I thought the CSM was supposed to stop CCP making pants-on-head ********, uninformed decisions such as this? "The rest will be in the blog rather than invented at the keyboards of forum posters and bloggers." -á-á-á-á-á-á-á - CCP Sreegs, 23/06/2012 Umad forum warriors?
David Cedarbridge Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation 261	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:25:00 - [185] - Quote Lallante wrote: People arguing that it needs to be clearer what is legal and what is illegal are completely wrong. The whole point is that it needs to be sufficiently broad to allow CCP to take whatever action it feels necessary to safeguard the game, and not have its hands tied because someone has found a particular angle that is "technically" within the EULA but in practice is highly abusive. If you are worried that your actions might be deemed cheating, unfair, exploits, gamebreaking, or otherwise circumventing a deliberately designed game limitation, then don't do them. By your own admission, nobody can or should know for sure if something they are doing is a violation of the above conditions. I really wish you'd make up your mind instead of playing two-faced posting games here. Either CCP gives a briteline and states what is and is not against their policies or they don't. In the condition that they do present this briteline then players are actually capable of knowing what they can and can't do without fear of reprisal. This is an optimal situation as players then know what is and is not a punishable situation. They don't have to guess. They don't have to infer. They don't have to do any legwork at all. If the rules are sufficiently clear then none of that is even an issue. Your statement that players should avoid doing what they "are worried" about just creates pointless paranoia. This is entertainment software not some sort of coercion experiment. Having players walk on eggshells for fear of being banned for whatever CCP whims to ban them for with no previous indications is a bad model and you should feel bad for suggesting that it is a legitimate concept. Additionally, justifying intentionally vague EULA (a puedo-legal document) on the basis of avoiding people from exploiting the same EULA is logically bankrupt. Dragging the real world into this (gasp, EULAs exist in the real work so here we go), laws that are intentionally vague or do not establish britelines and standards for violation and non-violation are routinely struck down for that exact reason. People cannot be expected to follow a standard that is not properly defined. Stating that you won't give anyone a better chance of following that standard than guessing is just asking for a can of "unintended consequences" that nobody wants to deal with.
Ivana Twinkle GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 331	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:26:00 - [186] - Quote What would happen to Eve if 3rd party developers stopped doing apperantly "illegal" things such as Evemon, Aura, and other services that either scapes cache or makes use of scraped data?
Kismeteer GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 237	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:27:00 - [187] - Quote So, I used evemon today, after April 15th, along with maybe every other pilot in eve. Which does cache scraping. So when are you banning all of eve? Your written policies are clear as mud about discretion. Should we be telling our pilots to not use evemon? If you're going to make exceptions, shouldn't you have a published list of exceptions? http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Third_Party_Policies Quote: We recognize that some players have engaged in cache scraping in the past, and we want to be clear this practice is not permitted. That said, unless there is an extreme case (i.e., cache scraping combined with other EULA violations), we will not penalize players who have engaged in this practice prior to 15 April 2013. Now that we have made our intent and policy clear, we may, in our sole discretion, deliver appropriate penalties for players that engage in cache scraping after 15 April 2013 (including temporary or permanent bans). In addition, we also may consider eliminating the cache to eliminate this practice and for performance reasons. So, do we get temporary bans and you guys get a mass desubscription, or do you just do permanent bans and all of the eve devs find new jobs? Or is 'discretion' a code word for ' Your program that does cache scraping must be this popular to stay in use'?
Entity X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence 412	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:27:00 - [188] - Quote Callic Veratar wrote: They have stated there is an group looking into moving the market data (and more) into CREST. Once that happens there's no reason to scrape the cache as there's an official, supported, and equal method for everyone to access all of the data. In an ideal world, that'd be an acceptable solution. Unfortunately we're living in a world where these can happen: - API is down. - CCP does not release database dumps in a timely manner. - Dump does not contain some information or is otherwise faulty. - Internet connection is down. There are many, many legitimate reasons to read the cache and bulkdata. My library exists to not depend on CCP for completely harmless and useful data that is already sitting right there on my harddisk. GòªGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGòæGûæGûæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòæGûæGòæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòªGòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòªGòùGòöGòù GòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòùGòöGòúGûæGòöGòùGòáGûæGûæGòáGûæGòáGòùGòáGò¥GûæGòæGòáGûæGòáGò¥GòæGòæGòæGòÜGòù Gò¬GòÉGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòÜGò¥GûæGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGûæGòÜGò¥GòæGòæGòÜGò¥GûæGò¬GòÜGò¥GòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòæGòÜGò¥ Got Item?
Kleesama GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:28:00 - [189] - Quote Ivana Twinkle wrote: What would happen to Eve if 3rd party developers stopped doing apperantly "illegal" things such as Evemon, Aura, GTS (and web based equivalents) etc. The reason some of these programs cache scrape is because CCP doesn't have the resources to put into properly fixing and updating their API in a timely manner.
Aryndel Vyst GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 576	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:32:00 - [190] - Quote This stupid policy change is probably the reason CCP Sreegs quit.

Feanos Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan 5	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:32:00 - [191] - Quote As someone who plays with 3rd party dev (Slowly) and helps to support EMDU for EMDR (Got it working on windows). I'm fairly saddened to see this happening. I use an extensive amount of market data pulled from cache files, dumped into my Spreadsheet of doom(tm), to deal with market orders, buying stuff from my corp membership etc. What I'm seeing here is a change in CCP's tone from "We want you all to play nice" to "We're going to make sure you're all playing nice in a manner that we approve as nice." As someone who multiboxes 10+ accounts, and plays subs on them, I keep a close eye on the security team posts, as I'm a heavy isboxer user, though I avoid most of the features other than "Ooooh. Easy screen layout! Win!" Simply because I'd prefer not to run afoul of team security. I'm now concerned by the increasing tones of "We don't want possible cheating techniques to be available." Which is fine, but now you're starting to cut off more and more supplies of data, that 3rd party devs use, and are refusing to define what you consider to be cheating. Please keep in mind, that CCP continually pushes to have the player base sign up for more account (Power of two anyone?) Also, the following wording is highly concerning to me: "2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played." According to this, we can't modify how the Game is played, but how do you want us to play the game? Are we to only play the game with one account at a time? Are we to play the game without any external tools to help us track jobs, manage accounts, track assets? By denying cache scraping officially, and in such a blunt manner, you've pretty much said, "Third party developers that explore out of our very, very limited API, are assisting users to play the game outside of how we want the game to be played" And that tone, is one that I really don't like to see. This game is unplayable for all intents and purposes without 3rd party developers, and I suspect, that's something that everyone here can agree with, on some level, simply because, the first day you join an alliance, and say "I'm new, where do I get started" You get slammed with 3rd party tools to make the game make more sense.
Aprudena Gist GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 27	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:33:00 - [192] - Quote This will only end badly for you CCP this is a terrible and stupid decision.
Aurthes M. Corp Engineering Fatal Ascension 5	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:35:00 - [193] - Quote Sometimes CCP does stupid things, this is one of them. Setting a rule which makes a large part of your userbase in violation of the EULA is clearly stupid, and then to state that they will arbitrarily enforce it is stupid upon stupid. Why not just make a rule that playing Eve is a violation of the EULA? That would make the everything much simpler.
Manssell OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate 146	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:35:00 - [194] - Quote This is going to end up being like drinking at an outdoor street festival (in the US) and having a cop come over and tell the group that while we're technically breaking the law, as long as we do it responsibly, keep it in our red plastic cups, stay on the sidewalk, and don't cause too much commotion he'll look the other way. Then 20 technogeeks run up and start asking him so many damn stupid technical questions about what exactly he'll enforce, "can the cup be blue?", "what if I have one foot in the street?", "can I make a loud whoot?", "What about uncontrollable laughter, Is that too much commotion?", "can the cup be green?", "what if I have one toe touching the street while the rest of me is on the sidewalk?", that he finally gets sick of it and tells us we all have stop drinking altogether now. So yea, keep it up and I'll laugh when the rest of the cache scraping programs gets banned too.
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc 353	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:38:00 - [195] - Quote Nice job CCP ;) I don't understand why people are whinning here, except if they are not clean, of course... G££ <= Me
Elfaen Ethenwe Eternal Rising Executive Outcomes 9	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:38:00 - [196] - Quote Kismeteer wrote: So, do we get temporary bans and you guys get a mass desubscription, or do you just do permanent bans and all of the eve devs find new jobs? Or is 'discretion' a code word for ' Your program that does cache scraping must be this popular to stay in use'? Given that this has not been advertised all that well (i only know about it through a 3rd party broadcast irony) I'd imagine that most of eve is currently in breach of that deadline and thus the EULA. Eve community will be a lot worse of for the loss of all of our favorite apps that we have and all those apps that are yet to be developed that are now not going to be because who'd risk helping others if it meant banning yourself for breaking EULA.
Jitus Altus Nurgle Shipping 6	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:39:00 - [197] - Quote Manssell wrote: This is going to end up being like drinking at an outdoor street festival (in the US) and having a cop come over and tell the group that while we're technically breaking the law, as long as we do it responsibly, keep it in our red plastic cups, stay on the sidewalk, and don't cause too much commotion he'll look the other way. Then 20 technogeeks run up and start asking him so many damn stupid technical questions about what exactly he'll enforce, "can the cup be blue?", "what if I have one foot in the street?", "can I make a loud whoot?", "What about uncontrollable laughter, Is that too much commotion?", "can the cup be green?", "what if I have one toe touching the street while the rest of me is on the sidewalk?", that he finally gets sick of it and tells us we all have stop drinking altogether now. So yea, keep it up and I'll laugh when the rest of the cache scraping programs gets banned too. :cripes: Did you just discribe the Dutch Police?
Whooricane Suicidal Intentions Initiative Mercenaries 1	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:40:00 - [198] - Quote Dunno if this has been asked before, but im kinda curious... I know a lot of people are using those custom overview and combat notification settings (XML file), where everything is so clear, nice and colorful Are those against the new rules as well now, or are they still perfectly fine? Suicidal Intentions - Bringing drunk Germans into your system since 2007
duckmonster GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 43	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:41:00 - [199] - Quote Altrue wrote: Nice job CCP ;) I don't understand why people are whinning here, except if they are not clean, of course... Don't whine then when 99% of the game gets banned for using eve-mon and you log in and welp eve is over because no customers no more. Thats the problem see. If this eula was enforced on everyone to the black letter of the law, space would be emptied.
Andy Landen Air Initiative Mercenaries 115	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:42:00 - [200] - Quote Innominate wrote: Ambassador Crane wrote: Hopefully none, but common sense seems to be fairly absent in this thread.... I think most of the players have a pretty solid common sense grasp of what is acceptable and what is crossing the line. CCP however have a long history of making decisions totally absent of common sense(Such as this one) so that relying on it to cover your ass is an impossibility. There is no "common sense grasp" of what is acceptable or of what is good and what is bad. That is why there are ten pages of posts and growing! Some things MAY seem obvious to some or even to most people, while other things seem unclear. Eve players are intelligent enough to stick with a high learning curve game that their creativity tends to push the rules to the limits. For instance, the idea of gathering market data from the client seems harmless enough to me. If I use the client, eve-central, and Evemon together to gather the data for analysis, and then work the market with scripts, that all seems perfectly fine to me. For instance, if I use a program to issue the same command to every one of my accounts at the same time (ISBOXER, etc.) that seems fine to me too. I am in control, I am interacting with each account, and nothing is being accelerated with respect to what each account could do if I were controlling it with a separate player for each account. The point is that our creativity REQUIRES clarity on the part of CCP. Simple yes and no answers on each class of cases AND then actually enforcing the answer. None of this: Yes, but no. OR No, but yes. Be clear. Clarify or else your words are meaningless and confusing.

Kismeteer GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 239	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:42:00 - [201] - Quote Altrue wrote: Nice job CCP ;) I don't understand why people are whinning here, except if they are not clean, of course... You should understand this: Are you using evemon? You too could be 'dirty', if you checked certain boxes in it. Will CCP ban you? Who knows, it's their call!
Rengerel en Distel Amarr Science and Industry 1362	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:43:00 - [202] - Quote Whooricane wrote: Dunno if this has been asked before, but im kinda curious... I know a lot of people are using those custom overview and combat notification settings (XML file), where everything is so clear, nice and colorful Are those against the new rules as well now, or are they still perfectly fine? If you were that curious, you'd read the thread. hint: keep clicking the blue dev arrow With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Peter Tjordenskiold 87	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:43:00 - [203] - Quote Tbh. Cache Scraping is ****. A lot of players made multithreaded services with hundred of hours workload to collect information for all because CCP isn't able or willing to provide an API and CCP is prefering to produce juridical problems. I don't get it
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 3981	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:44:00 - [204] - Quote IgnoreTheDroid wrote: Lallante wrote: seth Hendar wrote: as a RL lawyer, you should be aware that this is dependent of the countrys, and in france, if CCP ban someone with no reason, said person can fill a lawsuit and will win, because of customer protective laws (btw, EULA are of no value at all in France). Incorrect. While a EULA might not be legally enforceable as a contract, that doesn't prevent CCP from refusing access to its services to whoever it likes for whatever reason it likes. At best consumer protection law might get you a refund of unused, pre-purchased subscription time (doesnt apply if you use ISK bought plexs), which will be vastly less than any legal fees incurred, so good luck with that. Laws are different depending on where you live if you didn't know. e-Lawyer detected. Not everyone has the same consumer protection laws. Which are not going to come into effect for a non-essential service like a game. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Fade Toblack Per.ly The 20 Minuters 44	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:44:00 - [205] - Quote Manssell wrote: I'll laugh when the rest of the cache scraping programs gets banned too. No actually today's back-door announcement is that they're already all banned. You just didn't know it. To stretch your analogy, the local officier may be looking the other way whilst you're drinking on the street. Then suddenly his captain his turns up, and you found yourself in the back of a police car on the way to to be processed - as the captain has zero-tolerance for the same law.
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 3983	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:45:00 - [206] - Quote Kismeteer wrote: Altrue wrote: Nice job CCP ;) I don't understand why people are whinning here, except if they are not clean, of course... You should understand this: Are you using evemon? You too could be 'dirty', if you checked certain boxes in it. Will CCP ban you? Who knows, it's their call! Except of course that they point blank explained that they won't, and why. You choose to ignore that. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Smallevils Universal Secuirty Solutions 0	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:46:00 - [207] - Quote http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2DCExerOsA IS all i have to say
Kismeteer GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 241	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:48:00 - [208] - Quote Ranger 1 wrote: Except of course that they point blank explained that they won't, and why. You choose to ignore that. Except they won't give a list of approved applications. Only this one. And even that is an informal post by a dev in a thread, not in their posted policies and procedures. And no way to get on that approved applications. And who says they won't change their minds?
Fishsticks Fred Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 31	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:49:00 - [209] - Quote Ranger 1 wrote: Kismeteer wrote: Altrue wrote: Nice job CCP ;) I don't understand why people are whinning here, except if they are not clean, of course... You should understand this: Are you using evemon? You too could be 'dirty', if you checked certain boxes in it. Will CCP ban you? Who knows, it's their call! Except of course that they point blank explained that they won't, and why. You choose to ignore that. No, they said that if you're doing nothing wrong, like using EVEMON, then you have nothing to worry about. But who says that will be their stance in 6 months or a year? Or even that that's the stance between different GMs? No one, because technically you're still breaking the EULA, they'll just "look the other way".
Entity X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence 417	Posted - 2013.04.18 16:49:00 - [210] - Quote Ranger 1 wrote: Except of course that they point blank explained that they won't, and why. You choose to ignore that. Yeah, because policy made in a forum post that will get buried in time by many other posts and threads is so assuring, right? Oh wait! Edit: this post editor sucks so bad for reverting to old drafts randomly. GòªGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGòæGûæGûæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòæGûæGòæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòªGòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòªGòùGòöGòù GòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòùGòöGòúGûæGòöGòùGòáGûæGûæGòáGûæGòáGòùGòáGò¥GûæGòæGòáGûæGòáGò¥GòæGòæGòæGòÜGòù Gò¬GòÉGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòÜGò¥GûæGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGûæGòÜGò¥GòæGòæGòÜGò¥GûæGò¬GòÜGò¥GòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòæGòÜGò¥ Got Item?



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