The wiki page states that cache scraping is forbidden. If I'm correct, popular services such as eve-central rely on it... Do you plan to release an API access to the market to make up for this ? Or many player developped application based on eve-central api will just ... die. And it's not going to be good for the market !

Cache scraping is against the EULA. We will enforce it at our discretion. That has always been the case. Don't expect anything to change. We merely wanted to clarify the matter.

It would just be clearer for anyone if a legal access to these vital market data was provided :)

is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'?

is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'?

Absolutely, yes.

Half the player population are now breaking the EULA. Nice job CCP.

This really is pathetic. How can you pop up and say half the player base are breaking the EULA and we will 'enforce at our discretion'? Please explain.

Cache scraping is banned.

Ouch.

This will cause rage of the highest order.

Everyone running Eve-Mon is about to get banned, as it cache scrapes by default. How are you going to manage that CCP?!

When will you be taking down your illegal Eve Market endpoint Steve?

lol

Our EULA hasn't changed in this regard. This is the EULA we've always had. We have not outlawed cache scraping as of today. It has always been against our EULA. It's at our discretion as to enforcing it.

Team Security focuses on what we can do to stop macroing and RMT. That is where we will spend our time. So take that for what you want.

Yes

EMDR, by itself, is fine. As it does no scraping. It does takes data from clients (like evemon) which do the scraping, but it does no scraping itself.

What'd be a semi-workable solution, would be for CCP themselves to feed data into EMDR.

We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not looking for EVEMON users. Basically, please don't worry.

Warp to zero autopilot? You can do that manually by warping to zero and clicking autopilot in route to the gate so your ship jumps when it reaches the gate. Disable the autopilot as soon as you jump the gate and repeat.

So this is an offending action now?

-edit-

I was doing this before the jump option was added to the warp to gate features.

Warp to zero autopilot? You can do that manually by warping to zero and clicking autopilot in route to the gate so your ship jumps when it reaches the gate. Disable the autopilot as soon as you jump the gate and repeat.

So this is an offending action now?

-edit-

I was doing this before the jump option was added to the gate warp to gate features.

The cache scraping ban was unexpected, though. How are eve-central et al going to get their market data? I've configured my EveMon to not send in the market data now (and I assume any wise player will do the same). It kind of sucks that clarifications like these result in viable, useful third-party sites finding themselves in a position of being rules-lawyered out of being viable, especially after all those folks put in such massive effort to make something all of us players can use.

You've said that you're trying to lobby for getting Eve marketeers a feed they can use to get market data; did you consider putting a halt to cache scraping bans until you knew the outcome of that effort, or is it an instance where something bad out there is doing cache scraping (or using cache scraping to control something) and you need to act on it more immediately?

"Warp to zero autopilot? You can do that manually by warping to zero"

m8

And you are happy to run for CSM pushing data that has all been obtained through officially banned means?

Isn't that a bit laughable?

What's the position on gaming keyboards with macro-capabilities, such as the Logitech G15? Its driver inherently supports some level of user-initiated automation. (in short, do I need to look for a new keyboard? :))

And how will you tell the difference between an EVEMON user that you are 'not looking for' and an evil botter?

There is no difference. It is totally unenforceable. So why ban it?

I want to clarify that the cache scraping ban isn't new. If you read the EULA, this isn't a new thing. It has never been allowed by the EULA.

In regards to enforcement, we don't have plans. It's not at the top of our to-do list. It's simply a case of while it not being allowed by our EULA, it's at our discretion whether or not the effort to enforce it is worth it or not. Right now, we're focused on botting, RMT, client modification that impact other players.

I want to clarify that the cache scraping ban isn't new. If you read the EULA, this isn't a new thing. It has never been allowed by the EULA.

In regards to enforcement, we don't have plans. It's not at the top of our to-do list. It's simply a case of while it not being allowed by our EULA, it's at our discretion whether or not the effort to enforce it is worth it or not. Right now, we're focused on botting, RMT, client modification that impact other players.

This ^^ needs an answer.

Sorry but that is rubbish.

The EULA has always been completely vague. The nearest we have had previously was that cache scraping was legal.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=734561&page=1#9

We have CCP Sreegs' *opinion* that he thought it should be illegal.

You have just spelt out in plain language that it is illegal. This is the first time you have done this.

In regards to enforcement, we don't have plans. It's not at the top of our to-do list. It's simply a case of while it not being allowed by our EULA, it's at our discretion whether or not the effort to enforce it is worth it or not. Right now, we're focused on botting, RMT, client modification that impact other players.

We recognize that some players have engaged in cache scraping in the past, and we want to be clear this practice is not permitted. That said, unless there is an extreme case (i.e., cache scraping combined with other EULA violations), we will not penalize players who have engaged in this practice prior to 15 April 2013. Now that we have made our intent and policy clear, we may, in our sole discretion, deliver appropriate penalties for players that engage in cache scraping after 15 April 2013 (including temporary or permanent bans). In addition, we also may consider eliminating the cache to eliminate this practice and for performance reasons.

Hell, let's take this further. On one hand, in the devblog you state that you'll never approve any piece of 3rd party software, meanwhile individual CCP staff are stating that people won't get banned for using EveMon - surely that's an endorsement of a particular piece of 3rd party software?

Do you think people should be banned for using EveMon?

Do you think people should be banned for using EveMon?

Do you think people should be banned for using EveMon?

Do you think people should be banned for using EveMon?

The EULA has always been completely vague. The nearest we have had previously was that cache scraping was legal.

Do you think they should be banned for using isboxer?

All EULAs are vague, on purpose. Why? Because they are written to allow the first party to cover all eventualities and do whatever they want with you. The EULA also makes it clear that CCP can ban you for whatever reasons they feel like, should it come to that.

A dev saying that something is okay or another dev saying something should be okay to do doesn't actually void the agreement you've accepted which states that doing so is not okay. The EULA is written by lawyers to protect the company, and random members of staff can't alter its clauses.

What they can do is opt to enforce or not enforce the clauses on a case-by-case basis, which CCP's security staff does. They could just as easily take a blanket approach to the TOS and EULA and enforce it by the letter, which wouldn't just ban everybody using EVEMON but also everybody who's ever used Triexporter to play around with EVE's 3D models, textures, or fonts. But they haven't, because they value these things in the community and don't consider you a bad person. CCP has made an effort to separate botters from other people who violate the EULA, which is more than you can expect from most companies.

"Is this in violation of the EULA" and "Will I get banned for this" are two completely different questions.

Trust me, we have no interest in banning people unless they are doing something that hurts the game.

This gives them the flexibility to deal with software designed to circumvent the game rules without providing loop holes in their enforcement policy that could be exploited.

This isn't a difficult concept folks.

"Is this in violation of the EULA" and "Will I get banned for this" are two completely different questions.

Way to over react people.

This clarification closes a loop hole and gives CCP another tool to use against bots and cheats of various types.

YES, cache scraping is illegal... and if you use cache scraping for botting purposes they reserve the right to shut you down for it.

If you are using cache scraping purely for informational or utility purposes (meaning not to bot or otherwise cheat) then they excercise their right to NOT bust you for it.

This gives them the flexibility to deal with software designed to circumvent the game rules without providing loop holes in their enforcement policy that could be exploited.

This isn't a difficult concept folks.

If you aren't cheating or botting with your cache scraping software they aren't going to ban you, but if the software is modified so as to cross that line they reserve the right to come after you at any time.

Until Crest is fully functional this is actually the smartest way to handle things. It allows them to deal with cheats and bots when necessary without being hamstrung to the point they have to disallow software that is genuinely handy.

Now calm down.

As I have been saying to CCP Stillman since this went public (the CSM was not informed of this in advance), CCP should provide an API call to get market data before they declare cache scraping illegal. Many useful 3rd party applications depend on cache scraping, including just about every killboard out there (for market prices).

Then why post all this crap about suddenly deciding that cache scraping has always been against the EULA and threaten to ban those who do it?

This attempt to clarify the situation seems to have done anything but.

As I have been saying to CCP Stillman since this went public (the CSM was not informed of this in advance), CCP should provide an API call to get market data before they declare cache scraping illegal. Many useful 3rd party applications depend on cache scraping, including just about every killboard out there (for market prices).

Much more clarity is needed.

Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal?
Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal?
Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal?
Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal?
Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal?
Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?

'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.

I get why the EULA is fuzzy, but i still don't know whats allowed with ISBoxer and what is not.

Probably needs a case by case ruling when some people exaggerate, but an example would still be something i like to see.

If you are using cache scraping purely for informational or utility purposes (meaning not to bot or otherwise cheat) then they excercise their right to NOT bust you for it.

This.

Also, I'm disappointed in CCP Stillman's lack of understanding of the cognitive dissonance induced in people that love this game enough to never want to violate the EULA.

Vague promises about "it won't be enforced" aren't really reassuring.

Only if you are incredibly obtuse.

What about all those Overview modifications by changing the overviews .xml file? Are you also checking modified .xml files to see if players are making your game more user friendly and ban them?

The answer to all your questions is yes, it has always been yes. (presuming you mean illegal as in against the EULA)

Much more clarity is needed.

Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal?
Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal?
Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal?
Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal?
Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal?
Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?

'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.

What's the position on gaming keyboards with macro-capabilities, such as the Logitech G15? Its driver inherently supports some level of user-initiated automation. (in short, do I need to look for a new keyboard? :))

For years, CCP have been saying "cache scraping is OK". Then out of the blue we get a dev blog and wiki page telling us exactly the opposite: cache scraping is banned and CCP can ban you for doing it. Then, in the comments thread accompanying the dev blog, we get a dev saying in effect "it's banned and we can ban you for it, but we probably won't".

That's not exactly clarifying the situation to me.

I have a personal interest here: I have both written a market cache scraper and also run a website that uses scraped market data. Now, after investing years of development effort into both having been told it's OK to do so, CCP suddenly tell me I could be banned for it? That's not pleasant.

And there are many more people out there who've invested way more time and effort into developing third-party applications than I have.

It might seem like nitpicking, but when you've made a heavy investment into a game, suddenly being threatened with a ban for it rather makes one want to seek as much clarity as one can.

Sorry for quoting myself, but since the heated debate on cache scraping I figure it'd be overlooked. :)

So can a well designed spreadsheet. Is that illegal too?

See? Vague.

Much more clarity is needed.

Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal?
Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal?
Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal?
Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal?
Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal?
Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?

'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.

Let me reiterate again. The EULA hasn't changed in this regard. This clarification is a response to the request of countless people who read a post by CCP Sreegs that claimed that it was technically against the EULA. This caused a lot of confusion, and we are here to clarify what he meant. Because he was right. Here's the post.

For years, CCP have been saying "cache scraping is OK". Then out of the blue we get a dev blog and wiki page telling us exactly the opposite: cache scraping is banned and CCP can ban you for doing it. Then, in the comments thread accompanying the dev blog, we get a dev saying in effect "it's banned and we can ban you for it, but we probably won't".

That's not exactly clarifying the situation to me.

I have a personal interest here: I have both written a market cache scraper and also run a website that uses scraped market data. Now, after investing years of development effort into both having been told it's OK to do so, CCP suddenly tell me I could be banned for it? That's not pleasant.

And there are many more people out there who've invested way more time and effort into developing third-party applications than I have.

It might seem like nitpicking, but when you've made a heavy investment into a game, suddenly being threatened with a ban for it rather makes one want to seek as much clarity as one can.

He answered that on the second page. He uses one so you are safe

We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not CURRENTLY looking for EVEMON users WHO ARE BREAKING THE EULA AND COULD BE PUNISHED AT OUR DISCRETION. Basically, please don't worry.

Use some common sense FFS.

Here's a summary:
1. If you do something dodgy to gain an unfair advantage, its almost certainly against the EULA and you may get banned if caught;
2. If you do something reasonable that is TECHNICALLY against the EULA but doesnt harm Eve or qualify as "cheating" in any meaningful sense, you wont get banned and they wont be trying to catch you.

Our EULA is what it is. But if we were to make arbitrary exceptions to the EULA, that makes the EULA worthless. Misleading the player base about what the EULA entails is dishonest. We'd much rather explain what the EULA states and how it applies to different things.

It's a bit worrisome that CCP is stating that they're simply going to use their discretion to overlook the violations caused by the EVEmon market scraper, rather than providing an EULA-compliant alternative and allowing worried people to get back within the bounds of the agreement, but that's the way it works in the real world as well, I suppose...

But you have to remember that enforcement is an entirely different beast. I know what Team Security is tasked with, as do all of you because we discuss it and details about it on a regular basis. We focus on botting and RMT, and now also client modification used by known bots.

Use some common sense FFS.

I absolutely understand your frustration. This was not intended as a threat in any way.

Please, consider the fact that cache scraping can be used for illegitimate purposes which are damaging to the overall health of the game, such as for example market bots. The policy is in place to protect the game and our players ability to enjoy the game.

A blanket yes or no is not possible in this case. With our statement of intent, I sincerely hope that our legitimate players don't worry about catching the ban hammer for something we genuinely aren't concerned about.

Our EULA hasn't changed in this regard. This is the EULA we've always had. We have not outlawed cache scraping as of today. It has always been against our EULA. It's at our discretion as to enforcing it.

Team Security focuses on what we can do to stop macroing and RMT. That is where we will spend our time. So take that for what you want.

So can a well designed spreadsheet. Is that illegal too?

See? Vague.

I absolutely understand your frustration. This was not intended as a threat in any way.

Please, consider the fact that cache scraping can be used for illegitimate purposes which are damaging to the overall health of the game, such as for example market bots. The policy is in place to protect the game and our players ability to enjoy the game.

A blanket yes or no is not possible in this case. With our statement of intent, I sincerely hope that our legitimate players don't worry about catching the ban hammer for something we genuinely aren't concerned about.

Then it shouldn't be cache scraping that's considered illegal, it should be the things people are doing with it to cheat that's considered illegal.

There are parallels in real life, I guess. Certain interstate highways in the United States have posted speed limits, high and low (e.g. Speed Limit 55, Minimum 40). Traffic police won't enforce it against all drivers under normal circumstances, though, but will use a rule of thumb based on the ordinary flow of traffic - IE: if there's a traffic jam and everyone's reduced to 5 miles an hour, technically everyone's breaking the minimum speed limit, but it's impractical to sanction everyone caught in the traffic jam. So the cops use their discretion; they'll ticket someone going 15 in the passing lane during normal traffic, or 90 when the flow is going 65, but they'll focus on the dangerous ones and the outliers.

One clarification question: is tailing chat logfiles (e.g. what evelocal.com does) considered acceptable?

This is spot on, thank you.

Please, consider the fact that cache scraping can be used for illegitimate purposes which are damaging to the overall health of the game,

Cache scraping is against the EULA. We will enforce it at our discretion. That has always been the case. Don't expect anything to change. We merely wanted to clarify the matter.

In short, rules are something completely separate from enforcement.

Same goes here: the rule is GÇ£no cache scrapingGÇ¥. The enforcement is GÇ£if you cache scrape to cheat, then we're going to stomp your colon; if not, who cares.GÇ¥ The rule is simply wide enough that there is no wiggle-room to get out of it, should you be caught cheating through the use of some kind of cache-scraping mechanism that does not interact with the game in any other way.

Cars can be used to run over people. I don't see the government issuing blanket threats to car drivers.

We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not looking for EVEMON users. Basically, please don't worry.

Then it shouldn't be cache scraping that's considered illegal, it should be the things people are doing with it to cheat that's considered illegal.

No you're still missing the point.

2 DOESN'T MATTER

What matters is what I agreed to when I signed up for the game - which says what is and isn't against the EULA. There's also a paragraph on a wiki that clearly states a particular action is against the EULA.

Posts by devs on the forums stating what currently is being enforced, are certainly interesting, but do not change the agreement I agreed to.

CCP Stillman, I understand that you don't want to make arbitrary exceptions to the EULA.

But why not have a discussion with CCP Legal to change the EULA to address something that the vast majority of the playerbase does? If it won't be enforced anyway, why have it in the EULA at all?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but saying "it is what it is" is a cop-out, IMO.

No you're still missing the point.

2 DOESN'T MATTER

What matters is what I agreed to when I signed up for the game - which says what is and isn't against the EULA. There's also a paragraph on a wiki that clearly states a particular action is against the EULA.

Posts by devs on the forums stating what currently is being enforced, are certainly interesting, but do not change the agreement I agreed to.

People in here are very naive, with a few exceptions.

GM's statement "yeah its illegal, but we wont enforce it" is worth jack ****. They can easily come out the next day and switch it to "oh yeah it was always illegal, here's your ban"

Seems clear that most of you never dealt with contracts and how it will be used against you in the future.

And GMs have a long tradition of overturning each others "decisions", so anything GM says shouldn't be interpreted as truth.

Allways follow the EULA, thats the only document that has any weight. I'm turning off my EVEMON market scraper, and strongly suggest you do the same, if you have any sense.

We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not looking for EVEMON users. Basically, please don't worry.

Hi Entity! There are no blanket threats here, I'm sorry you see it that way.

Cars can be used to run over people. I don't see the government issuing blanket threats to car drivers.

We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not looking for EVEMON users. Basically, please don't worry.

Nope, no worries on that one. We are after the hackers, botters and the RMTers.

Just out of curiosity:

I live in a country where the EULA has no legal binding if not presented legally correct aka during establishing a contract with the seller of the product.

This means any EULA presented during and installation process or during using the software after it was already bought is not binding and legally void.

I am however sure that CCP has the right to impose rules and regulatory to their game. But they should do so in a legal way.

Btw. the counry i am speaking of is Germany, the land of legally void EULAs. :)

As an actual, RL lawyer I'm going to have to break it to you that this is bollocks. In practice CCP can ban you for no reason at all and you have no legal redress whatsoever

Which is all well and good, until some combination of software that you have vaguely promised you won't get banned for using (but somehow don't endorse) ends up creating a false positive, and you end up banned as a hacker, botter, or RMTer.

In regards to enforcement, we don't have plans. It's not at the top of our to-do list. It's simply a case of while it not being allowed by our EULA, it's at our discretion whether or not the effort to enforce it is worth it or not. Right now, we're focused on botting, RMT, client modification that impact other players.

as a RL lawyer, you should be aware that this is dependent of the countrys, and in france, if CCP ban someone with no reason, said person can fill a lawsuit and will win, because of customer protective laws.

Cache scraping is against eula... except we won't enforce it on some things that use it but we will allow the players to guess at what is allowed..


Glad we got a nice clear and concise definition of what is allowed and isn't.

as a RL lawyer, you should be aware that this is dependent of the countrys, and in france, if CCP ban someone with no reason, said person can fill a lawsuit and will win, because of customer protective laws (btw, EULA are of no value at all in France).

I would appreciate clarification on the usage of isboxer specifically as a multiboxing client. What sort of features are legal and illegal for example when mining I use it to view all 10 clients at once on 2 monitors so I can tell which holds are full and need to empty into the orca.

I have also used it in PvP to more effectively manage 5+ accounts and blow things out of the sky, any clarification on what we can and can't do would be appreciated.

I'm pretty sure all the members of the security team are looking forward to telling Hilmar that they have enforced the EULA and perma-banned 400k accounts for using Evemon.

Hi Entity! There are no blanket threats here, I'm sorry you see it that way.

We've stated our intent numerous times, and I'll do it again; the policies are in place to protect the well being of the game. We'll use these policies to get rid of cheaters, and I'm sure you don't want them around any more than we do.

Does this include a visual modification to make everything look like star wars ships?

Incorrect. While a EULA might not be legally enforceable as a contract, that doesn't prevent CCP from refusing access to its services to whoever it likes for whatever reason it likes. At best consumer protection law might get you a refund of unused, pre-purchased subscription time (doesnt apply if you use ISK bought plexs), which will be vastly less than any legal fees incurred, so good luck with that.

Does this include a visual modification to make everything look like star wars ships?

This 'cache scraping' stance is completely untenable. I am a third party dev. I help design / publish tools, such as http://goonmetrics.com, which players who don't want to lawyer-up the EULA will use. What am I supposed to say? "Hey guys, this is now officially against the EULA (where in the past it has generally been thought to be permitted by the EULA), but don't worry because it's just market data and not a botting program and there are a couple forum posts which say you'll be fine, honest. Oh but by the way if a GM wants to ban you nobody can help because it's against the EULA."

This is insanity.



What you really need to do is to modify the EULA to be more specific. Have it actually mention things such as "cache scraping in conjunction with botting". If you make pretty much every evemon user -- nearly every player of the game -- a EULA violator, you're giving GMs or whoever carte blanche to ban as they please. "Hey this guy was cache scraping, and someone somewhere said he was botting. But we know he was cache scraping, off you go!"

Please, for the love of god and the sanity of devs who HELP PLAYERS ENJOY YOUR GAME and are TRYING TO DO RIGHT, fix it so extremely common, "CCP sanctioned" tools such as market data tools or evemon are not against the friggin' EULA.

Really, who comes up with this stuff? Would you stand for this if you were a third party dev? How can you have a policy that makes it so tens of thousands of players can arbitrarily be banned, then say "don't worry it's not a priority?" If you were an EVE player, would you want that Sword of Damocles hanging over your account?

enlighten me. EULA is of no value at all in france

Does this include a visual modification to make everything look like star wars ships?

Humor me and answer the questions.

Dude knows what he's talking about. Someone pay attention.

Don't worry, it's ok.

They are only threatening them all with bans, it's absolutely fine!!

Cars can be used to run over people. I don't see the government issuing blanket threats to car drivers.

Hi Entity! There are no blanket threats here, I'm sorry you see it that way.

We've stated our intent numerous times, and I'll do it again; the policies are in place to protect the well being of the game. We'll use these policies to get rid of cheaters, and I'm sure you don't want them around any more than we do.

That's the whole point. If you give people a clear, definitive explanation of what is allowed, smart, bad people will immediately set about exploiting the **** out of the loopholes.

CCP is using deliberately open-ended language in the same way that in many countries, criminal laws do. They want there to a grey area SO that they can approach each case on its own merits and dont have their hands tied when they have to deal with a clearly abusive case which is "technically" on the legitimate side of a clear dividing line.

Its a good policy and one I wholeheartedly agree with as a lawyer.

Don't worry, it's ok.

They are only threatening them all with bans, it's absolutely fine!!

That's where the nice clause of "we can ban you at anytime for any reason" comes into play. People are going to find and exploit loopholes no matter what. This isn't going to stop it at all. All it is doing is making legitimate players worried that their actions are now a bannable offense because there is no clear statement on what is allowed and isn't.

Not he doesn't. He is assuming that CCP want him to develop tools like Goonmetrics. He doesnt even consider that maybe they dont.

Not he doesn't. He is assuming that CCP want him to develop tools like Goonmetrics. He doesnt even consider that maybe they dont.

Incorrect. While a EULA might not be legally enforceable as a contract, that doesn't prevent CCP from refusing access to its services to whoever it likes for whatever reason it likes. At best consumer protection law might get you a refund of unused, pre-purchased subscription time (doesnt apply if you use ISK bought plexs), which will be vastly less than any legal fees incurred, so good luck with that.

You aren't going to be banned for a technical breach.

That's the whole point. If you give people a clear, definitive explanation of what is allowed, smart, bad people will immediately set about exploiting the **** out of the loopholes.

CCP is using deliberately open-ended language in the same way that in many countries, criminal laws do. They want there to a grey area SO that they can approach each case on its own merits and dont have their hands tied when they have to deal with a clearly abusive case which is "technically" on the legitimate side of a clear dividing line.

Its a good policy and one I wholeheartedly agree with as a lawyer.

Really, these things are all over the place around here.

Its going to stop legitimate players taking comfort from EULA wording to justify using a cheat. This eliminates much of the market for such cheats, which in turn discourages their development.

What do you have an EULA for, which is supposed to clearly outline the terms of business between company and customer, if you completely erode and undermine said EULA, making it essentially useless and leave the user to guess what one can do and what not?

This is extremely pitiful customer service, CCP.

I hope you will come up with more clear terms and I hope you are going to tell us clearly "Yes, XYZ is ok, ABC is not." It's absolutely fine to change the terms later on, as long as you give people grace periods to adapt. If you want to allow multiboxing now, but want to ban it later, no problem! Inform people, give them a month to adjust and then start handing out bans. It's not like anything you say now is set in stone forever. This game is constantly changing on all fronts. But for gods sake, please be clear and specific.

If, even though you have been specifically told it's okay, you choose to not use EvEMon that's fine. Nobody cares.
But the fact remains you have been specifically told the overriding goal of EULA and TOS enforcement is to use what is specified in those documents is to catch botters, RMT, and other specifically cheat oriented activities... and NOT to go after folks using common handy activities.

It really doesn't matter what was discussed in the past, this is your official word on the subject at this time.

So evemon is a cheat? CCP, in this thread, said that evemon is fine...

People arguing that it needs to be clearer what is legal and what is illegal are completely wrong.

The whole point is that it needs to be sufficiently broad to allow CCP to take whatever action it feels necessary to safeguard the game, and not have its hands tied because someone has found a particular angle that is "technically" within the EULA but in practice is highly abusive.

If you are worried that your actions might be deemed cheating, unfair, exploits, gamebreaking, or otherwise circumventing a deliberately designed game limitation, then don't do them.

If you are not so worried, chill out. You aren't going to be banned for a technical breach.

Getting hung up on what does or does not technically break a EULA is completely missing the point.

People arguing that it needs to be clearer what is legal and what is illegal are completely wrong.

The whole point is that it needs to be sufficiently broad to allow CCP to take whatever action it feels necessary to safeguard the game, and not have its hands tied because someone has found a particular angle that is "technically" within the EULA but in practice is highly abusive.

If you are worried that your actions might be deemed cheating, unfair, exploits, gamebreaking, or otherwise circumventing a deliberately designed game limitation, then don't do them.

If you are not so worried, chill out. You aren't going to be banned for a technical breach.

Getting hung up on what does or does not technically break a EULA is completely missing the point.

waffle

CCP: Cache scraping is against EULA

Players: But EveMon and other non-disruptive 3rd party apps use Cache scraping!

CCP: We understand! Cache scraping has always been against EULA but we are only after botters, RMTers and Macros. If your intentions aren't bad, then you're fine and we overlook it because we can.

Players: But we skipped all those years in school after 1st grade! We didn't learn common sense! You MUST break it down Barney style!

CCP: This isn't the Barney show. How many more ways can we say basically the same thing before you stfu?

We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not looking for EVEMON users. Basically, please don't worry.

The problem you miss is that, in your example of "mutliboxing", "multiboxing" isnt some discrete, easily definable thing. You can multibox just by opening the Eve .exe twice, for example, or you can run a program that runs instances of eve in virtual desktops and macros the controls together so that one person can control 20 accounts. There is a huge range of things that "multiboxing" as a description covers. It would be literally impossible to exhaustively list every element that is legit and is not legit. And thats why you need blanket statements.

You are a crappy lawyer then. Rules have to be clearly defined. If its unclear, then either side can use to its advantage (in RL scenario, if theres an ambiguity, the best lawyer wins). Now in a situation CCP GMs are the judges, and a player has zero chance of defense, it can easily get out of hand. Saying that everything is against the EULA just because CCP doesn't want to leave any gray area for criminals to abuse is exactly the opposite of a good policy.

Remember that you cant discuss petition results, and technically any random CCP GM can go on a ban spree whenever he wants, and players banned have no way to reverse the ruling because they are technically breaking the EULA. It's not enough for a GM to post to a forum "yeah, trust us, you are breaking the rules but we wont do anything".

I cant believe how many gullible naive people are playing this game. I kind of expected some more brains from the players of EVE, where you are encouraged not to trust anyones random ramblings in the forums, and look at things that actually do matter.

Here's how I read this devblog and wiki, and then the subsequent comments in this thread between CCP and various players:




Hopefully none, but common sense seems to be fairly absent in this thread....

Going out on a limb here in saying that on behalf of the more intuitive players, I'd like to apologize for our fellow player's short comings....

Not acceptable. By your own "we can do anything we want" EULA anyone using that functionality is breaking the EULA. You have basically come here saying, without saying it, that that is fine as you do not consider it a problem. So the obvious decision is to remove it from the EULA. Seriously you KNOW where the botters and RMT are, you KNOW and still refuse to take action on a global scale against all of the entities involved. Grow a pair and take on the Null Bot empires and RMTs.

That is not a blanket threat. That's saying "if you use your vehicle to do bad things, you will get slapped", which is fine.
To keep with the car analogy, what CCP just said is "Driving a car is now illegal, but if you behave, we probably won't take action if you are driving one".

As an actual, RL lawyer I'm going to have to break it to you that this is bollocks. In practice CCP can ban you for no reason at all and you have no legal redress whatsoever

That is not a blanket threat. That's saying "if you use your vehicle to do bad things, you will get slapped", which is fine.
To keep with the car analogy, what CCP just said is "Driving a car is now illegal, but if you behave, we probably won't take action if you are driving one".

Then its probably fine. Its for each individual player to use their brain when deciding whether to use a tool whether it could constitute a cheat, unfair advantage, exploit or other circumvention of intended game mechanics.

Hopefully none, but common sense seems to be fairly absent in this thread....

lol

At the end of the day, this statement that cache scraping is illegal is a statement of general principle so CCP can keep their options open and prevent abusive acts. It doesnt mean anyone is going to be banned for using EveMon.

People arguing that it needs to be clearer what is legal and what is illegal are completely wrong.

The whole point is that it needs to be sufficiently broad to allow CCP to take whatever action it feels necessary to safeguard the game, and not have its hands tied because someone has found a particular angle that is "technically" within the EULA but in practice is highly abusive.

If you are worried that your actions might be deemed cheating, unfair, exploits, gamebreaking, or otherwise circumventing a deliberately designed game limitation, then don't do them.

We recognize that some players have engaged in cache scraping in the past, and we want to be clear this practice is not permitted. That said, unless there is an extreme case (i.e., cache scraping combined with other EULA violations), we will not penalize players who have engaged in this practice prior to 15 April 2013. Now that we have made our intent and policy clear, we may, in our sole discretion, deliver appropriate penalties for players that engage in cache scraping after 15 April 2013 (including temporary or permanent bans). In addition, we also may consider eliminating the cache to eliminate this practice and for performance reasons.

They have stated there is an group looking into moving the market data (and more) into CREST. Once that happens there's no reason to scrape the cache as there's an official, supported, and equal method for everyone to access all of the data.

What would happen to Eve if 3rd party developers stopped doing apperantly "illegal" things such as Evemon, Aura, GTS (and web based equivalents) etc.

So, do we get temporary bans and you guys get a mass desubscription, or do you just do permanent bans and all of the eve devs find new jobs? Or is 'discretion' a code word for ' Your program that does cache scraping must be *this* popular to stay in use'?

This is going to end up being like drinking at an outdoor street festival (in the US) and having a cop come over and tell the group that while we're technically breaking the law, as long as we do it responsibly, keep it in our red plastic cups, stay on the sidewalk, and don't cause too much commotion he'll look the other way. Then 20 technogeeks run up and start asking him so many damn stupid technical questions about what exactly he'll enforce, "can the cup be blue?", "what if I have one foot in the street?", "can I make a loud whoot?", "What about uncontrollable laughter, Is that too much commotion?", "can the cup be green?", "what if I have one toe touching the street while the rest of me is on the sidewalk?", that he finally gets sick of it and tells us we all have stop drinking altogether now. So yea, keep it up and I'll laugh when the rest of the cache scraping programs gets banned too.