Personally, I'd also remove jump drives from jump freighters or

And for another thing, yes, it is a movement towards a fundamental change, because from an incremental perspective, you need to get the supply/demand balance tweaked to where it actually should be so you can be sure it settles out to the price balance you want, before you go and just fundamentally change the whole supply side.

That's nonsense. Those were broken by the drone regions making mining worthless, not "oh look a side effect of invention". The utter collapse of the highend minerals that made 0.0 mining a joke half a decade ago is the problem there, and the drone regions didn't create this unstoppable pvp juggernaut. They are also not industrial alliances, they're nothing more than today's spacelords renting to ratting bots instead of mining bots. Endless supplies of mega and zyd do not create local industry, they just created local resource harvesting. Today, that's ratting instead of mining, mostly, thanks to years of minerals being completely borked.

The "open to all" player owned stations were largely the result of people trying to force an ideology into a game that doesn't support it (the laughable collapse of the goonswarm libertarian free-trade-zone for example) and getting crushed because it turns out it just doesn't work as a paradigm in this game.

Much of the difference between early eve and current eve is also not fundamental mechanics changes but just the process of learning how to play the 0.0 sov game, the increasing number of people in 0.0, and the vicious evolutionary process winnowing out bad forms of alliances.

With t2 bpos, the "can be rich and powerful" still existed, it was just you had to be lucky enough to have some t2 bpos. Then, not only did you have an endless isk spigot but you had one that could never be taken away from you. That was going to create the same crowding out, just in a different way.

the "end importation and mineral compression" is an obviously nonsense idea, though it keeps coming up.

Here's the thing: most mineral loss occurs in 0.0. Most lowend minerals are mined in highsec. Somehow, either those minerals, or the finished products, have to make their way to 0.0. Or you just nerf highsec into the ******* ground and make it supply only itself with lowends (we will assume this isn't an option for now). It's one or the other, either the finished products or the raw materials come out. So when you advocate killing mineral compression you're advocating we retain the "import all finished products from jita, death to 0.0 industry" paradigm. Because that's the only option, no matter how high you jack up the import cost, short of the massive nerf into the ground of highsec veld mining.

the "end importation and mineral compression" is an obviously nonsense idea, though it keeps coming up.

Here's the thing: most mineral loss occurs in 0.0. Most lowend minerals are mined in highsec. Somehow, either those minerals, or the finished products, have to make their way to 0.0. Or you just nerf highsec into the ******* ground and make it supply only itself with lowends (we will assume this isn't an option for now). It's one or the other, either the finished products or the raw materials come out. So when you advocate killing mineral compression you're advocating we retain the "import all finished products from jita, death to 0.0 industry" paradigm. Because that's the only option, no matter how high you jack up the import cost, short of the massive nerf into the ground of highsec veld mining.

That's why you should nerf importation of finished products (you can't nerf it completely because we still gotta import tons of ice highsec mines even under the 80% max plan, and export tons of moon mats) and buff the everliving **** out of mineral compression, not continue to believe that 0.0 should be mining its own lowends

or i mean let us do that in a reasonable way, I am all in favor of nerfing highsec into the ground but ending even their ability to mine for scraps is a little vicious even for me.

I say nonsense. My first time around eve about 3 years ago I was ice mining in providence with a mackinaw on my first account and was never really in danger with the intel you had about those that moved in and out of your area.

Evidently you haven't done the maths on the ore changes. 0.0 being wholly self-sufficient is now a very real possibility (at least as far as t1 production goes). The yields on 0.0 exploration mining sites are now pretty much proportional to the demand for minerals in t1 production.

I am fine with 0.0 being self-sufficent but I am very aware ccp is not fine with nerfing highsec into the ground by ending demand for their lowend minerals. Consequently, I operate on the assumption that empire must export finished goods, or their lowends. To the extent you nerf mineral compression you just make it more likely that we start importing finished goods instead.

I don't really understand what I've said that you disagree with here.

The Industrial alliances had mostly died before the drone regions were even introduced in the Revelations expansion in winter 2006. You seem to be conflating 2003-2006 whereas the industrial alliances' hayday was a 2 year period from late 2003/early 2004 (XETIC, FA, CFS) to late 2006 (ASCN). All of them were dead by the time the drone regions came online. The drone regions may have killed mining, but it cant be said to have killed 0.0 industrial alliances.

Please explain how your argument against nerfing mineral compression applies following the ore changes in null.

Evidently you haven't done the maths on the ore changes. 0.0 being wholly self-sufficient is now a very real possibility (at least as far as t1 production goes). The yields on 0.0 exploration mining sites are now pretty much proportional to the demand for minerals in t1 production.

even under the assumption 0.0 becomes self sufficient, it'll always overproduce high end minerals. it has to.

Personally, I'd also remove jump drives from jump freighters or at the very least ban them from empire. **** those things tbh.

I mean that's fine (they don't need to be compressed) but then mining in empire becomes so unprofitable ccp is forced to take action.

Does anyone else struggle to follow exactly what it is he is trying to say?

If you cut 0.0's ability to import trit/pyer, then hi-sec loses it's main market. Thus the cost of trit/pyer tanks and hi-sec mining becomes worthless.

Evidently you haven't done the maths on the ore changes. 0.0 being wholly self-sufficient is now a very real possibility (at least as far as t1 production goes). The yields on 0.0 exploration mining sites are now pretty much proportional to the demand for minerals in t1 production.

can you tell me how we managed to reduce the number of slots in all of nullsec to a miniscule fraction of hisec's capacity through sandbox magic

because well you can't sandbox your way around hard mechanics limitations

At the moment, hi-sec gets 3 massive "cost" advantages

1) A huge amount of free invulnerable, inalienable slots, often in the same station as you can easily get perfect refines, loads of office slots, research slots etc., etc.

2) CONCORD protection 24/7 at zero cost, which hugely reduces the overhead of moving finished products and materials.

3) A massive local supply of low-end minerals; it's much cheaper, logistically speaking, to move the high ends to where the low ends are than vice versa.

Now the Odessey ore changes will go some way to redressing cost 3, but hi-sec cost advantages 1 & 2 are left largely intact.

Until such time as either 0.0 stations get an efficiency advantage equivalent to those cost advantages, or else hi-sec stations charge "realistic" amounts for the use of their slots, very little industry will take place in 0.0; ammo, cap boosters, cyno frigates, etc.

Who in their right mind is going to do manufacture as an isk maker in null.

Yes, that's kind of the point. One might almost say that it's a good indicator that the situation is unbalanced.

I'm not disagreeing with your past experience, but how will that translate to post-odyssey when ice might actually be valuable and rare enough to be controllable, and experienced ice monopolists are also very experienced in 23/7 cloaky camping to suppress people's ability to grind in null-sec?

Yes, that's kind of the point. One might almost say that it's a good indicator that the situation is unbalanced.