the problem is not that we cannot get battleships; it's that just importing everything from empire is boring gameplay

we are not bemoaning that we cannot afford battleships because we cannot produce them locally. we are bemoaning that importing everything is boring compared to having vibrant local industry

I, too, am a badboringposter

And maybe I'm giving you too hard a rap; you did, as you say, learn a few things, it just seems like you also tend to ignore or fail to understand quite a few arguments. And I'm probably mixing you up with a couple of the other NPC alts since I didn't have time to carefully read everyone's post. vOv

We only meet our logistical demands (everything from POS fuel, to ships to ammo) because we import virtually ALL of it from highsec.

One highsec system has more manufacturing slots available than several entire nullsec regions, you would literally have to seed an entire region with nothing but amarr outposts stocked with insanely expensive and craptastic upgrades to even come close to having enough slots to keep up with demand (but now your alliance is too broke to even pay sov bills).

This is also the reason why nullsec alliances don't recruit industrialists, we simply don't have anywhere for them to build things.

With the changes coming don't be suprised if nullsec alliances start actively recruiting miners and experienced industrialists.

I think you have confused me with others, too. There was one that, although perhaps on my side of the argument, also seemed (even to me) to really be missing people's points.

I found some of those defending the resource shake-up made good points and even said so a few times.

The one point I just stubbornly clinged to, though, is that because moon-goo fixes all problems, null-sec doesn't get to claim an industry imbalance with high-sec as justification for their wants and desires, at least, not without me laughing. While some of the arguments against such a stance were interesting, I just haven't read anything, yet, convincing enough for me to capitulate on that point.

If people think the resource shake-up will just be more fun, cool, say so. Some did, and I hope they are right.

The one point I just stubbornly clinged to, though, is that because moon-goo fixes all problems, null-sec doesn't get to claim an industry imbalance with high-sec as justification for their wants and desires, at least, not without me laughing.

I'm sorry. It is just that what people get from these threads is that people in Null claim moon mining isn't as valuable as other people make it out to be. If you are saying they are valuable and worth the effort, then I'll accept that answer.

In terms of pure wealth creation, any 0.0 coalition could trade all the tech moons it owns in return for a single cash cow hi-sec system like Osmon (which also has 3 Ice belts, and of course 150 manufacturing slots as well , to sweeten the deal) being transported into the middle of their space, and come out well ahead on the deal.
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Well if you want to make null competative and support alliances from the bottom up then 11 slot ceiling per char should be lifted when using slots in null. Maybe then a corp/alliance could actually support itself from industry without 90 percent of members being alts. Never made sense anyway, when a business grows it gets a bigger factory, not cloning yourself to start all over again.

It is and always has been ridiculous that level 4 hisec agents allow you to make so much isk doing such "un MMO" gameplay in such safety.

They were a horrible idea when first introduced (and produced a HUGE amount of negative 0.0 reaction) and have steadily become more and more entrenched. Moving or heavily nerfing them now is basically unrealistic given how reliant on them a large proportion of the playerbase is.

I definitely consider level 4 hisec missions to be the worst game design failure in Eve's history.

And you pretty much hit the nail on the head there. Nothing can be fixed because the second you nerf highsec, which is required for any reasonable repair unless you want to fix the problem by introducing hyperinflation, the botters will come out of the woodwork and cry bloody murder.

Just wait until these ice changes go live and people can't run 23 bot accounts at once in Ice Belts for completely passive income. Or worse, when the people that ARE ice mining in highsec aren't able to come anywhere near close to meeting demand. You're going to see the forums completely come unglued.

And yet you have fleets.

But if your argument is that high-sec currently is on the winning side of an industrial imbalance[/i], that's when I start chuckling (because moon-goo is an industrial product and can solve all problems).

And for anyone in null who isn't enjoying the benefits of moon-goo.... it would seem to me that you are on the wrong side of an INTENDED industrial imbalance between the winners and losers of null-sec, and high-sec isn't your problem, except that they are working for the winners.

if mining veld was afk levels of safe in null sec, it would completely defeat the purpose of null sec.

No, because Nullsec would be the only place where to mine arkonor and other stuff and that would not be safe.

But if your argument is that high-sec currently is on the winning side of an industrial imbalance, that's when I start chuckling (because moon-goo is an industrial product and can solve all problems).

Not everything I want is due to being on the weaker side of industrial imbalance

Just wait until these ice changes go live and people can't run 23 bot accounts at once in Ice Belts for completely passive income. Or worse, when the people that ARE ice mining in highsec aren't able to come anywhere near close to meeting demand. You're going to see the forums completely come unglued.

Moongoo fixes all problems? Maybe if you're in one of the few alliances lucky enough to have significant moon income, it fixes some financial problems, but this isn't about moon income, it's about everyday activity in alliance space. It's about the average member who has an ISK making alt being forced to keep that alt in empire. It's about the way 0.0 space is deserted except for ratters. It's about the way that alliances don't eed to use the majority of their space for anything except visiting a moon twice a month.

P.S. any chance we could get some POS changes mixed in where offline POSs (there are going to be hundreds and hundreds of them) are removed after being offline for a set amount of time (sayyyyyy 7 days)?

The rest of your paragraph looks like an argument for fun or convenience

It's evident that people still have wildly inflated ideas about how much the best moons are worth.

A top tier hi-sec mission running system probably produces as much wealth as the whole CFC derives from its Tech resources. Let's actually do the maths, shall we?

1 tech moon = 5B/month. Pretty nice! But that's actually only 7M an hour!

1 mission runner = 30M/hr (including LP rewards). Some will get quite a bit more, some will get somewhat less, but I think 30M/hr for the best agents (and those will be by definition the busiest ones) is a reasonable average figure.

If we assume that a top tier mission system has an average of 100 people running missions at any one time, then that system will produce as much wealth as 400+ Tech moons. And 100 is a very low-ball average for those systems, by the way; it's more like the minimum.

In terms of pure wealth creation, any 0.0 coalition could trade all the tech moons it owns in return for a single cash cow hi-sec system like Osmon (which also has 3 Ice belts, and of course 150 manufacturing slots as well , to sweeten the deal) being transported into the middle of their space, and come out well ahead on the deal.

"Oh but Malc," I hear you say "If that was true, then those mission systems would be riddled with 0.0 players!"

They are.

Missions are not an industrial product, anymore than null ratting is. Throwing them in the mix becomes an argument about wealth, not industrial balance. Now granted, the industrial product of moon-goo fixes all problems because it is so easily translated into wealth. But it IS an industrial product.

All imported.


It is impossible for an industrial player to build in 0.0 for their own alliance dispite investing trillions into infrastructure.

So you think its fine that industrial players are punished by game mechanics if they move into 0.0?