Which also lends how 500 man hours does not just equal 5bil isk.

Again, so many variables to show the formula being terrible.

Formula is fine. You can still mine up a months worth techmoon isk in 500 hours.

Yeah, that always bugged me about this line of argument. I think the vast majority of the people involved in capturing and securing moons would laugh at being even remotely associated with "industry".

The "you have moongoo, therefore you can't have anything else" is an extremely weak argument.

That part I agree with baltec, and I even mentioned it earlier.

Tippia's standard that ice mining versus moon mining being comparable and interchangeable is where I find fault.

You can mine enough to add up to a month's worth, actively.

Just like as a burger flipper I can work enough hours to make the same amount of money as a doctor... but the jobs are not comparable.

Formula is fine. You can still mine up a months worth techmoon isk in 500 hours.

That part I agree with baltec, and I even mentioned it earlier.

Tippia's standard that ice mining versus moon mining being comparable and interchangeable is where I find fault.

Just like as a burger flipper I can work enough hours to make the same amount of money as a doctor.

Yeah, that always bugged me about this line of argument. I think the vast majority of the people involved in capturing and securing moons would laugh at being even remotely associated with "industry".

The "you have moongoo, therefore you can't have anything else" is an extremely weak argument.

GǪin fact, just to be pedagogical, let's run through the argument in its entirety again:

- How much do you earn from a tech moon in a month?
- 5bn ISK?! Omgz! That's massive! How could you ever compete with that?!
- Well, you could mine ice for 500 hoursGǪ or, perhaps more reasonably, have 250 people mine ice for 2 hours (or 125 for 4h or any other combination of miners and hours that you'd prefer).
- Oof! That's 500 man-hours worth of work, isn't that a lot?
- NahGǪ after all, say that the moon is attacked and requires a 2-hour op from a 250-man fleet to stay alive GÇö that's 500 man-hours spent right there.
- So, really, moon income is fairly equal in terms of effort:income to ice mining.

So you agree with the argument but find fault with it (since what he said is the same thing I've been saying). InterestingGǪ

So, again, could you explain how the two are not comparable when we're looking at man-hours to achieve a specific income in both cases? How are they not interchangeable (I suppose you mean by this that you could do one instead of the other?) when it's well within the realm of reasonableness that you'll have to spend the same amount of effort to gain the same income in both cases?

GǪexcept that, in this case, we're comparing flipping burgers with mowing lawns (can you tell which is which, btw? ).

I find fault with the fact you claim you need 500 man hours "guaranteed"

try building tech 2 modules and ships without it. Industrialists highly covet that industrial product.

GǪwhich I don't.

By that reasoning, combat pilots are industrialists GÇö they highly covet the industrial product tooGǪ

when it's well within the realm of reasonableness that you'll have to spend the same amount of effort to gain the same income in both cases?

You just did not more than 5 posts up!

Eh, no. I (rhetorically) asked whether GÇ£it's well within the realm of reasonableness that you'll have to spend the same amount of effort to gain the same incomeGÇ¥.

When comparing ice mining and moon mining... no it isn't.

Oh? How so.

Because of the varied variables you spoke of before.

The word "same" is where you destroy all reason.

GǪwhich I don't.

By that reasoning, combat pilots are industrialists GÇö they highly covet the industrial product tooGǪ

I already answered the question in the post before you quoted me from.

Perhaps you shouldn't skip over.

yes, people want the good stuff, and it comes from moon-goo

It actually all comes from Jita, as far as most "industrialists" are concerned.

No. Which variables are you referring to? And how do they make it unreasonable that, say, 500 man-hours are spent in a month on keeping a tower up and running?

Perhaps you shouldn't use unsourced and unverifiable references and they try to weasel your way out of explaining yourself when being called on your latest attempt at creating yet another strawman.

GǪwhich doesn't lead to the conclusion that something counts as GǣindustryGǥ just because people are supplying it or demanding it.

Uh, I used your statements. Not really anything to "weasel" out of.

The reason it is unreasonable is because the "500" has no basis.

it's your faults I'm questioning

How often do moon towers get attacked?

No. You referred to some kind of statements that I've supposedly made and when asked about them you are now completely unable to provide any kind of reference. This means that you've just made something up again and attributed it to me GÇö a classic straw man. Now you're still doing your best (which is still pretty awful) trying to weasel your way out of this predicament and evade this question by not coughing up anything to support your claim and instead moving onto some new tangent.

GǪaside from the little conversation posted above and the accounts from people who actually engage in these kinds of things. But that still doesn't answer the actual question: which variables are you referring to? And how do they make it unreasonable that, say, 500 man-hours are spent in a month on keeping a tower up and running?

The problem is that they're not mine. They're yours, through the strawman arguments you are so hell-bent on using.

So what happens if the pos is attacked for the entire month... how many man hours is that?

So what happens if the pos is not attacked at all for the month... how many man hours is that?

Where does 500 figure into "keeping it up and running" which seems a bit vague to me.

How about this... why don't you just break down the entire sequence from start to finish, complete with # of man hours per activity to get that moon tower "up and running" and see the factual evidence so I can't do anything but recognize the facts. (pretend you are outlining a program to implement so we can justify the need and reasoning behind it).

Don't worry about "averages"... we can figure out the average and the mean from the raw data you supply.

I'd hate to be accused of straw manning because I have to try to keep up with your nonsensical factoids.

My goal of forever is to make WH industry. Why can't we get moon poo as well