Also one thing I haven't heard ANYONE point out in the 4 threads I've been posting in recently is that High-sec (or SOMEWHERE) always has has to be able to generate the POWER to sally forth into null sov and shake things up. Maybe it will be stored wealth from missions, or Jita market manipulation or any of dozens of activities, but we should never make the mistake of making Null Sov so good that it becomes permanently static and stale.

What people can't seem to get past in this thread (and what I can't seem to capitulate on) is whether it is justified by an argument of industrial imbalance.

I'm not opposed to the shake-up. But we've spent pages on debating one justification for the shake-up.

For some reason the first thing that came to my mind is the scene in Animal House where Flounder (now CCP) is told:

You f'd up; You *trusted* us!

GǪand is easily matched by almost anything highsec has to offer. So at best, we have parity there, combined with immense imbalance everywhere else, resulting in a total imbalance in favour of highsec (the fact that moons aren't just matched, but trivially out-earned by numerous highsec activities, and that moons are not universally available means that we don't even have parityGǪ but let's go with your delusion for the time being).

Mongoo does not solve any problems GÇö it's just an income source, like every other income source, that lets you buy things you can't/won't make for yourself. The reliance on moongoo shows that there is a problem; it does not make the problem go away.

GǪwhich is nice and all but not relevant to the case at hand. The reason people want nullsec industry buffs is because nullsec is on the weaker side of an imbalance GÇö something that is blatantly obvious to anyone who has actually studied the mechanics involved. You're essentially making the GÇ£Ancient AliensGÇ¥ argument: there is a (infinitesimally small) possibility that it is like this; therefore it is. Just because there are things that are not due to the obvious imbalance doesn't mean that nothing is due to it, or that the imbalance doesn't exist.

If we're changing the argument to complete wealth generation, you should also include ratting and plexing on null's balance sheet and missioning on high-sec's.

we should never make it so Null Sov has so much wealth it can't be challenged by newcomers who have put in the time and effort *somewhere* to unleash the dogs of war upon null sov.

It is and always has been ridiculous that level 4 hisec agents allow you to make so much isk doing such "un MMO" gameplay in such safety.

They were a horrible idea when first introduced (and produced a HUGE amount of negative 0.0 reaction) and have steadily become more and more entrenched. Moving or heavily nerfing them now is basically unrealistic given how reliant on them a large proportion of the playerbase is.

I definitely consider level 4 hisec missions to be the worst game design failure in Eve's history.

If we're changing the argument to complete wealth generation, you should also include ratting and plexing on null's balance sheet and missioning on high-sec's.

But always remember that the wealth/power to step out and shake up null sov has to come from SOMEWHERE. Maybe it should come from low-sec or NPC null, but we should never make it so Null Sov has so much wealth it can't be challenged by newcomers who have put in the time and effort *somewhere* to unleash the dogs of war upon null sov.

Great, then you fully support a much greater industrial capacity for null as this will be the most efficient way of balancing the value extracted per "industrialist" by drastically increasing their number. I'm glad we agree.

(I am, of course, mocking your ridiculous backpedaling, and am more than satisfied that your complete lack of knowledge and coherence has been demonstrated to anyone with a shred of sense)

[quote=Liz Laser]

GǪbecause you refuse to accept reality. Why is that?

This is balanced out by nullsec's havingGǪ what?

Like others pointed out, moon goo isn't worthless.

Some moons are worth more than other though. Some are worth sending out huge fleets to take or defend.


And you don't see this with ice because ice belts in their current form are effectively limitless and the vast majority of the harvesting is done in highsec where warring over it is complicated. But is does happen (see; Gallente Ice Interdiction)

Power in nullsec comes from organisation, experience and commitment, not wealth.

LOL. Yeah, I didn't think that one out all the way.

Still, even THAT would be more "balance" than just null getting more null-sec slots.

It might also be a bit more INTERESTING.

And when I wanted more slots it was because I wanted more slots. Not because I thought hi-sec held the overall industrial balance of power.

other posters make arguments against your stances too

I'm not being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn.

I thought we agreed that last night Moon goo was a valuable and important resource worth fighting for that isn't present in hi-sec.

We went over this before in that other thread.

We also agreed that it was no more valuable than ice mining, so it doesn't balance anything out.
So, again, aaaaaall of those benefits highsec industry has is balanced out by nullsec havingGǪ what?

Good fights over moon goo?

2) CONCORD protection 24/7 at zero cost, which hugely reduces the overhead of moving finished products and materials.

GǪwhich is not part of the industry sector.
So, again, aaaaaall of those benefits highsec industry has is balanced out by nullsec havingGǪ what?

Protection?

Since when did Concord actually protect anyone?

Ever since they started blowing people up without fail, thereby offering the same kind of protection as any N-¦ blob. Just because protection isn't always enough to keep you alive doesn't mean it's not a form of protection.

Protection is killing the gankers before your freighter is dust not after.

That's because we have done the maths, and studied the problem, and you have not. Incidentally, this is also why the devs agree with us, and why we're not buying your unfounded and unreasoned claim that no imbalance exists.

I once got my sister to lick both terminals of a 9 volt battery.

GǪwhich CONCORD does just fine, or at least as fine as any other fleet that offers protective fire.

Also, with CONCORD = you pretty much never get blown up; without CONCORD = you get blown up the moment you undock. Has the presence of CONCORD protected you or not?

By importing it all.



We literally cannot build and maintain a single fleet of battleships with our entire outpost infrastructure.

maybe they did it for other reasons than your maths.

You got the people who thought Dominion was a swell idea to agree with you. That and a small one-time security deposit of 500 million isk will get you membership into Goons.

Or, even better, maybe you have an answer: aaaaaall of those benefits highsec industry has is balanced out by nullsec havingGǪ what?

a) maybe they did it for other reasons than your maths.

b) You got the people who thought Dominion was a swell idea to agree with you. That and a small one-time security deposit of 500 million isk will get you membership into Goons.

I once got my sister to lick both terminals of a 9 volt battery. I won't argue that makes me brilliant.

I think a huge problem is that people are wanting 500 man battles at a much higher frequency than was originally designed. On any given day you have 5,000 people looking for a huge battle and the influx of ammo can only support 1/4 of that.

The supply doesn't meet the demand sure. But lower the frequency and maybe it would.

If the income levels were not so high and people were not able to trivialize such an expensive fleet at a drop of the hat, the industrial infrastructure of battle would be better suited.

I'd refer to the stories of people ratting throughout the month, then staging up for a sov fight and those month long grinds happening that people don't like anymore with everyone stockpiling munitions.

Now that we have large fights at a drop of a hat for no other reason than arbitrarily throwing isk out the door, of course you cannot keep up on ammo!

Learn to use godamn lasers if you need lol.

Command and control of who produces what? And who get's what?