There was a time and place when industry thrived in null-sec. That place saw many many more outposts built than other places.

Sigh. I facepalmed so hard it hurt. Come on OP, don't drag us thru this again.

It really is the case. A quick search would have told you that.

post with your main

how does nrds or nbsi change what ores are in null sec grav sites?

can you tell me how we managed to reduce the number of slots in all of nullsec to a miniscule fraction of hisec's capacity through sandbox magic

because well you can't sandbox your way around hard mechanics limitations

how does nrds or nbsi change what ores are in null sec grav sites?

Nullsec industrial alliances were killed off by the addition of invention and the resulting price rises in prom/dyspro (and later tech). We're hoping that the moon rebalance in Odyssey starts to wind that back a bit, but it's not the whole solution.

Could you please elaborate on that? I don't realize the link between the two things. I mean, why an increase in moon minerals price would stop nullsec industrialists?

Instead I would say (perhaps naively) that the ease of logistics (jump freighters and stuff) killed nullsec industry, since it's far easier to produce in highsec (where lowend ores coming from afk mining are abundant) and move stuff in 0.0 with those overpowered mega caravans than it is to produce locally, with the chronic lack of lowend ores.

[...]

What this meant was that there was no point being an industrial alliance - PvP alliances had better income by miles and could buy everything they wanted from their newfound moongold.

[...]

I'm not convinced the changes will fix this problem, without some heavy nerfs to logistics to encourage localisation

Prior to that point, Alliance income was multi-faceted, with collectively owned t2 BPOs and 0.0 ratting/mining (e.g. corp and refinery taxes) at its core. Since most t2 production was used internally to the alliance, it made sense do so at least some of the production in 0.0. Ratting and mining also meant a large portion of the low end (from refined loot) and high end (from mining) minerals were already in place.

After those changes not only did t2 become WAY cheaper (BPOs less profitable, internal (subsidised) alliance production less necessary), but Alliance income became largely relient on holding R64 and later Tech moons, something that industrial players were not capable of beyond the obligitory POS logistics teams (usually less than 20 people for a many thousand person alliance). At the same time, better logistics through cyno-networks, JFs, proliferation of carriers etc made moving large amounts of ships and material from Empire into 0.0 more and more feasible.

What this meant was that there was no point being an industrial alliance - PvP alliances had better income by miles and could buy everything they wanted from their newfound moongold.


I'm not convinced the changes will fix this problem, without some heavy nerfs to logistics to encourage localisation, but they certainly are a GREAT step in the right direction. I trust CCP to follow up on this.

Yup, pretty much this. It used to be that you could be strong but poor (PvP alliance) or weak but rich (industrial alliance), because making lots of money and being militarily strong required fundamentally different internal cultures/structures, and every alliance had to decide where it wanted to fall on that spectrum. With the advent of supermoons, being strong and being rich fed into each other, and suddenly there was no upside to being an industrial alliance.

(This is my go-to example for unintended consequences in emergent design.)

Yup, pretty much this. It used to be that you could be strong but poor (PvP alliance) or weak but rich (industrial alliance), because making lots of money and being militarily strong required fundamentally different internal cultures/structures, and every alliance had to decide where it wanted to fall on that spectrum. With the advent of supermoons, being strong and being rich fed into each other, and suddenly there was no upside to being an industrial alliance.

(This is my go-to example for unintended consequences in emergent design.)

This is around the 5th argument from ignorance you've gone through in as many hours.

Perhaps you should just step back and realize you have no clue what you're talking about.

Right, and how do reasonable people learn things? Do they walk into a room and blurt out moronic statements until people are forced to correct them?

If null-sec industrialism is broken, it might not be CCP's fault