The problem with a game full of competitive minmaxers is that everything has to be balanced to five nines otherwise something will be overpowered.

overwhelming firepower? you protect your sov/resources/members/friends etc

But passive income moon-goo rich null-seccers talking about industrial balance?

Also, if moongoo is so "passive", how come you don't have any?

If datacores are so passive, why doesn't everyone collect them?

overwhelming firepower? you protect your sov/resources/members/friends etc

covetors, and cloaked cyno ship.

solution to afk cloakers.

If ice becomes truly valuable *and* organizations see it as essential, they may very well work as a group and your strategy would indeed be how it gets handled.

But a lone guy simply monitoring intel along the pipe will just be a great old-school story to tell while you're mining.

Because it wasn't worth their time to arrange.

Are you saying a tech moon isn't worth your time to drop a pos on? That's all that's holding you back?

One has nothing to do with the other.

Also, if moongoo is so "passive", how come you don't have any?

almost 700k isk/unit ice.
150 blocks of ice per hour with a hulk in odyssey.
that's around 100m/hour mining ice.

ice is valuable

Having it, or not having it in my hangar doesn't change the fact that its existence has tilted the industrial balance of the game heavily towards null-sec.

Getting yourself into the position of having the POS on the moon is irrelevant, since CCP Soundwave doesn't believe rep grinding and skill training should figure in effort/reward figures for datacores. Datacores are entirely passive, they just magically appear in Jita 4-4 with no effort, didn't you know?

Cool.

Maybe ice can be the new "thing worth fighting for".

Please describe the nature of this "industrial balance" as you understand it.

If you're suggesting that it is the "total value extracted from a security space", then you are talking about something completely different than what advocates for an industrial balancing of nullsec are.

if i'm reading garpa right, it looks relatively evenly spread around 0.0. every one will have some and nobody will really be that interested in fighting for it.

If Malcanis wants to suggest he was merely talking about a sliver of the industrial picture when he brought up balance, that would be eminently fair.

But if anyone (you, Malc, or others) is willing to say that industrial balance as a whole is imbalanced in favor of null-sec, not only will I be laughing heartily, but I'll soon know which of my co-workers read the forums based on their laughter.

But if it is NEEDED, the tears factor alone won't be enough to deny it from enemies? :-)

I dunno, you might be right. Null can get real static, sometimes. Until it isn't.

You didn't answer the question. You're making up an argument, and then "laughing heartily" at your own invented argument.

How is the incentive to manufacture in a space tied to the value of materials extracted in that space? How are you measuring each of them? How are you comparing the relative values to decide how much extraction value is worth how much properly-incentivized industrial capacity?

i'd be surprised if any alliances could field enough miners to keep a decent proportion of their ice sites on a respawn timer. null sec isn't known for it's abundance of miners.

Quit making sense.

I'm not going to play mathematician for you.

Suffice it to say if null-seccers didn't highly prize those moon-goo riches they could simply sortie out of high-sec into null-sec to play our PvP reindeer games. The fact that null-seccers sit on the moon-goo means it has succeeded as becoming the "something worth fighting for" CCP strives for. If it were eye candy, or something else without industrial use you'd have a point. But it is an industrial good.

if i'm reading garpa right, it looks relatively evenly spread around 0.0. every one will have some and nobody will really be that interested in fighting for it.

You may be reading GARPA right, but you are missing the point.

Ice Anoms will bring even small groups of miners, which will bring gank fleets, which will bring defense fleets, which will actually cause small scale PVP to be a thing again. It's been called the "Nullsec Ecosystem," and it was killed because entitled bot miners browbeat CCP into making Highsec the only place to do all but the most specialized of industrial crap for the past few years.

Almost makes you wonder how unbloated things would seem if it wasn't so easy to plex so many separate accounts.

False positives and what not for slot allotment and actual demand.

With the huuuge amount of "fake" accounts, there has got to be a nice sized amount of double dipping going on.

I just hope these changes make null more fun. But you'll never get me to say that industry was unbalanced in high-sec's favor.

The notion is simply laughable.

I'm not going to play mathematician for you.

i have no doubt that will happen. however, there's a difference between hotdropping miners and fighting for a resource.

I really can't begin to describe how wrong this is. What you are describing is alliances being rich because they owned t2 bpos, which is not the same as the alliance being rich because it is an industrial alliance. It means that alliances were rich because they were, essentially, lucky.

It was never possible to take a t2 bpo away from an industrial alliance or make it stop spigoting money for them (because they could build it in highsec). No alliance could "decide to be" an industrial alliance because they couldn't decide to have a t2 bpo (unless, of course, they were BoB). "Industrial alliances" did not earn money off the backs of their industrial members: they earned money by having a t2 bpo and having one or two people run it. It didn't mean people needed to mine, it didn't mean people needed to build, it just meant "this alliance has lots of money because it has a t2 bpo".

An alliance having a t2 money spigot didn't mean it was weak or strong; it was entirely irrelevant (hence Bob, the prototypical elitePvP alliance also being stupid wealthy).

This is really, really wrong on a fundamental level and I really hope this isn't the basis of game design post-oddessy. It's just such a botched view of what an industrial alliance even is and what eve's history is.

Right, it is a good used in industry. So what's the rate of exchange on industrial capacity and industrial goods extracted? All of this, of course, dependent on your completely unsubstantiated assertion that a greater overall value of industrial goods are extracted in nullsec than hisec.

*IF* high-sec extracts more total value, it is only because most players don't enjoy PvP, not because high-sec is such a great place for botting. If you made mining ships free and clone replacement after mining ship destruction free and even paid players to die, I still think you'd find most players aren't going to come out to and die for our enjoyment.