*IF* high-sec extracts more total value, it is only because most players don't enjoy PvP

Wouldn't it make more sense to equalise opportunity between 0.0 and hi-sec, so that JFing everything up from hi-sec becomes increasingly moot? Shouldn't 0.0 regions be able to easily trade with each other? Why should 0.0 have its throat cut before this is achieved?

Seriously, you're trying to cure a broken leg by banning bandages and plaster.

I'm rambling, but my point is, that in my opinion the way to weigh the balance is by the overall value of industrial goods extracted PER INDUSTRIALIST.

eh you probably won't bother so here: it is highly unlikely that 0.0 actually becomes self-sufficient for lowends (and ccp is explicit they do not want it to be) so if it becomes self-sufficient it will be nerfed

if 0.0 is self-sufficient a mineral compression nerf is entirely unneeded and pointless, if a mineral compression nerf is doing anything, then 0.0 is not self-sufficient and you are incentivizing importing finished products

Nullsec industrial alliances were killed off by the addition of invention and the resulting price rises in prom/dyspro (and later tech). We're hoping that the moon rebalance in Odyssey starts to wind that back a bit, but it's not the whole solution.

So you're basically saying that you have decided to ignore facts and figures and that no amount of data or people (or even devs) telling you what's going on in the game will persuade you to abandon something you have made up, and which you will not make any effort to actually see if it's true?

The question posed earlier is quite interesting and I'd like to hear you actually answer it: please describe the nature of this "industrial balance" as you understand it.

It's not a matter of playing mathematician GÇö it's about checking your facts before you make any claims, and certainly before you dismiss the claims of those who have checked their facts and done the maths.

The only conceivable reason for saying that an imbalance in highsec's favour is laughable is that you simply haven't bothered to look and are just going by baseless assumptions that you refuse to accept as anything but true.

I've lived in null-sec. I've had the moon-goo riches showered on me by benevolent dictators that I one day hope to have the time to play with, again. A couple of my corps handed out Carriers like they were candy to anyone who'd train them.

If CCP's economist wants to show us numbers on industrial wealth extracted per industrialist (with some definition of what constitutes an industrialist) I'd be very interested in seeing those numbers. But if it proves me wrong I'm going to suffer some very serious cognitive dissonance, because it will basically be telling me that what I saw in null-sec didn't really happen.

Sure, I'm open to seeing the math. But if it shows me I'm wrong it will be like telling a lumberjack that there are no such things as trees. I will have some serious cognitive dissonance, because it doesn't merely disagree with my beliefs, but with my actual experience.

The only logical explanation would be that somehow my experiences weren't representative. While in fact, I currently hold the (admittedly unproveable) impression that there were/are other corps that have even greater and more concentrated moon-goo wealth than those I served in.

Great, then you fully support a much greater industrial capacity for null as this will be the most efficient way of balancing the value extracted per "industrialist" by drastically increasing their number. I'm glad we agree.

(I am, of course, mocking your ridiculous backpedaling, and am more than satisfied that your complete lack of knowledge and coherence has been demonstrated to anyone with a shred of sense)

By the way, it seems that T2 BPO are also killing the invention market, isn't it ?

The only logical explanation would be that somehow my experiences weren't representative.

Does null-sec want to trade half their moons with high-sec for half of high-secs slots?

The only thing your example really shows is that nullsec has some really good basic resource extraction (moon goo), and that it is enough to subsidize some niche value adding industry (building and handing out carriers). It in no way demonstrates that nullsec has viable industry on its own.

Wait...do you actually believe a majority of nullsec players who have never seen a cent from moongoo wouldnt take this in a heartbeat?

This was in regards to if there is BALANCE and who holds the cards in industrial imbalance. If someone were to argue that every area should be able to be self sufficient because that's more fun, then fine. If they argue that null should get more self sufficiency (or that null should get anything) to create industrial balance that's what seems funny, to me.

Really though, you were a null player and all. It's so obvious from your complete lack of a clue.

Not really, no.

No. Another logical explanation is that you're including factors that are not relevant. If you want to talk individual wealth creation, don't include wealth-creation that is not individual; if you want to talk about total industry, then let's talk total industry and actually look at what can and can't be done rather than focus on a just one thing.

The simple fact is the vast majority of industry happens in highsec, and the reason for this is that industry is heavily unbalanced GÇö everything is easier, cheaper, safer, more effortless, to say nothing of risk-free. You are trying to hide this massive and blatantly obvious imbalance behind misapplied (and non-existing) statistics.

Why should they have to give up anything to get something that's still a fraction of what they should have to begin with?

Also keep in mind, most space isn't rolling in high value moons, so this moon goo subsidized industry only works for a few alliances holding a bunch of the best moons.

I want more slots in null-sec because I want them. I'm just not going to tell you it is a balance issue.

That's silly. Why are you ignoring a fact that provides an excellent reason why it should happen?

What's wrong with calling a balance issue a balance issue GÇö especially when it's such a well-known and obvious one GÇö and then ask that it be balanced properly?

The part I bolded is rather fascinating. Where does it come from?

I can't make the argument either is a balance issue. Maybe you can.

The part I bolded is rather fascinating. Where does it come from?

Take a wild guess who would have control over those moons. Because it wouldn't be high sec industrialists.

Should it matter? Either the tech moons are profitable or not. If they aren't then somone should fire the alliance's accountant.

Should it matter? Either the tech moons are profitable or not. If they aren't then somone should fire the alliance's accountant.

I mean think of it like this.... If a POS operation takes 100 million to operate for every 110 million it makes which leaves you 10 million profit. Sure that is only 10% profit, but if it's technically throwing away money if you don't perform the POS operations.

An old thread where some moron tried to claim that moongoo was unbeatable as an income source. It turned out that a single high-end moon provides 5bn a month and requires about 500 man-hours a month to do soGǪ incidentally, 500 man-hours of highsec ice mining provides about 5bn a month.