So you abandoned the Amarr re-balancing thread despite the heavy criticism on the Apoc changes and made the same changes the the napoc.

I think we all understand the meaning of asking for feedback a little better now.

CNR is king of PVE again?

RAVEN NAVY ISSUE
We are giving the CNR an 8th launcher to make up for the loss of the rate of fire bonus

PLEASE GO BACK TO FIRST CLASS OF ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, THERE YOU WILL LEARN THE MATH WHICH ENABLES YOU TO DO THE MATH.. SAID MATH WILL SHOW YOU THAT THE 8TH LAUNCHER WON'T COMPENSATE FOR THE LOSS OF 25% RATE OF FIRE.

so, STOP MAKING STUPID JOKES RISE!

COMPARE YOUR SHINY PIECE OF CRAP CALLED REBALANCED CNR WITH THE TYPHOON (the normal one) AND YOU WILL SEE HOW LAUGHABLE THIS "new" CNR IS.

THANKS FOR NOTHING, RISE

The idea with the Tempest is that it fits really well into a lot of armor based compositions, acting more or less like an armor Maelstrom. It still has higher alpha than the Typhoon, with a lot more hp and similar utility. It goes a lot faster than the other combat battleships and has much smaller sig, so it definitely isn't eclipsed completely.

I can understand why some of you might want something with a bit more pop and I promise to talk with Fozzie and the rest of the department to make sure we're happy with this form before Odyssey goes out.

So you abandoned the Amarr re-balancing thread despite the heavy criticism on the Apoc changes and made the same changes the the napoc.

I think we all understand the meaning of asking for feedback a little better now.

.. and its literally dudes like the idiot a few posts above me who's pissed he can't fit a tractor beam ..

Earlier in the day I told someone - I'm afraid I don't remember who - that I was pretty sure that the Torp CNR would outdamage the Torp Typhoon (at least as far as missiles went) in most situations. So here's the math on that. Each ship is modeled with max skills, Tech II launchers and (despite the fact that the TyFI will probably not do this very often given the armor tank) three BCS II.

Any Dreadnaught
Faction Torps
CNR: 948 DPS
TyFI: 1098 DPS
Rage Torps
CNR: 1115 DPS
TyFI: 1149 DPS

Basically the max damage scenario.

Target: Alphafleet Maelstrom, 547m sig radius, 118m/s
Faction Torps
CNR: 948 DPS
TyFI: 1098 DPS
Rage Torps
CNR: 948 DPS
TyFI: 724 DPS

The max damage scenario still applies here for faction torps, however with rage torps the CNR deals full DPS, while the TyFI loses 26% of its damage. It's similar against armor tanking combat BS, which have a smaller sig but are slower. The Abaddon tanks full damage from either with faction missiles, full damage from a Rage torp CNR, but only 76% damage (872 DPS) from a Rage TyFI.

With a Tech II target painter, both ships do full damage in all scenarios.

Target: Tempest. 340m sig, 150m/s
Faction Torps
CNR: 920 DPS
TyFI: 712 DPS
Rage Torps
CNR: 630 DPS
TyFI: 422 DPS

Raven's dealing very nearly full damage with the faction missiles and 56% of its max with rage. The Typhoon only gets 73% and a mere 37%, respectively.

With a Tech II target painter, both ships do full damage with faction missiles. The CNR deals 77% of its damage with rage torps, while the TyFI is up to 50%. Even in that case, though, you're still better off shooting the normal torps. Kinda goes to show how bad (or at least niche) Rage torps really are.

Target: Naga, 1x LSE II. 240m sig, 244m/s
Faction Torps
CNR: 920 DPS
TyFI: 712 DPS
Rage Torps
CNR: 630 DPS
TyFI: 422 DPS

DPS on both ships drops way off here, to 43% for the CNR and 32.5% for the TyFI with faction missiles. Shooting rage, it's 25% and 16% respectively.

With a target painter, that's 59%, 44%, 35% and 23%, respectively.


Numbers drop from there as you'd expect. Of course, this is just with one painter at most. Start throwing in more support (and thus more painters and webs) and the TyFI pulls ahead, but by no more than 3%. That goes up when you factor in the drones, of course, though not by much; in the max damage scenario, a flight of Ogres for the Typhoon only puts it up by about 80 DPS (~7%) over the CNR with a flight of Hammerheads.

And then there's more reality. Both ships are difficult to fit as torpedo ships, and the Typhoon especially requires extensive compromises. Expect to make extensive use of Meta 4 and/or faction equipment to get it to fit. A buffer tanked Typhoon fields a smaller tank than a fully buffer tanked Raven, though to compensate it has the edge in sig radius. I comes down to the Typhoon uses neuts and its drone bay to fight off smaller ships, while the CNR is capable of taking the more direct route. Overall, I feel like they're very balanced ships.

Correct. But you forgot the lost High Slot. Now you MUST use 8 launchers. So you do not have an high Slot for something else. For me the Tractor Beam would be gone. Harsh Nerf Rise. Bad work Rise. Please let it be. Do not touch the CNR.
First you have "optimized" my Drake Tech I to death and now you try nearly the same with my CNR?

Idiot? Learn the math! I lose more firepower and CCP obstruct one high Slot with this crap! It is not just because of the tractor beam. It is: I lose a highslot, firepower and have to use more ammunition. Thats all. Try to find someone else who will do the math with you.

This is not well thought out, it's a ******** change everyone who ever used a CNR could have done better. CNR wasn't really used besides PvE, this won't change it's uselessness for PvP, as the ship is not getting better - it is becoming flat out worse.

Again, no, its not, either close EFT or learn how to read the numbers its showing you since you simply do not understand how they function, and or the mechanics surrounding them.

read the quoted post below yours, you have no idea how eve combat mechanics work.

Perhaps for guns you are right. But with Missiles I always hit with full damage. And if you cut this damage by 25% (rate of fire bonus) I will lose 25%.

No, its called ignoring you because you have no idea what you're talking about, the changes to both the Apoc and the Napoc are amazing, and its literally dudes like the idiot a few posts above me who's pissed he can't fit a tractor beam and you who want a cap use bonus or some crap like that on the Apoc, or even worse, the CVA guy asking for falloff on lasers

how about you just stfu, or start doing the math for something different than solo PvP.

This thread is amazing, its full of mission runners who simply have no concept of how the weapons they put on their ships function, or how the math that goes into them figures out when considering weapon and target

Can you please explain why the changes to Apoc are amazing? Heck, just please give a situation that the Apoc or Napoc excels at over the Abaddon and why a tracking paired with a range bonus is a useful thing? The Amarr BS thread has the Large Energy Turret tracking math and this bonus only helps against cruisers with perfect transversals at the Apoc's optimal (with a beam fit) and with a pulse fit why give it a +range bonus?

What does solo PVP have to do with applied missile damage and all the things about it that you don't understand?

Why do you want to over-complicate the mechanic with a magical knowledge of "How Missile Damage Is Applied"?
Now I shoot with "calculated" 8.75 Launchers. After this I can fit 8 launchers. Or please try to explain. Give an example for a Cruise Missile CNR which will lead to an enlightenment for me.

Like with the Navy Armageddon, we are going to leave the Navy Domi as a throw-back rather than switching to the new tech 1 bonus. This layout offers many unique and brutal opportunities, and fits the more niche application of a faction ship. By becoming GÇÿcombatGÇÖ rather than GÇÿtier 1GÇÖ it will also gain a significant hitpoint boost.

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints
+5% Large Hybrid Turret damage

PVE Raven:

Hits BS'S/BC's with full dmg, kills Cruiser and frigs (non-elite) with one volley. Bonus of the CNR will only help with Elite Frigs/Cruisers (where the ROF-Bonus would help against BS's, BC's AND elite-frigs/cruisers

PvP Raven:

Besides of solo PvP, there will be someone else who is probably going to bring webs and/or just another TP -> Explo-Bonus will become useless.

If you really want to BUFF "tracking" for missiles on the CNR, give it a sig-radius bonus for missiles, as that would have a higher chance of affecting damage application across the board.

Got it now?

Again, you're not hitting for full damage, unless what you're shooting at is at a dead stop, and painted. No matter how hard you want to believe thats happening, its not, and nothing you say will make what you believe true.

Its not magical, its your targets signature and speed working against the explosion velocity and radius of your missiles. If the CNR is so special to you how do you not know this? Like, why do you think you put the rigs on it that you put on it? Right, i should amend that, I'm assuming you use the right rigs.

So basically, if your target moves, at all, its mitigating SOME missile damage. The faster it goes, the more it mitigates as it gets out of the explosion area of said missile. Pre Nano nerf it used to be possible to nearly mitigate all of that damage simply by flying like a bat out of hell around 10km/s, however that changed and now things take some damage. Target painters effect half of the equation by inflating the targets signature but basically this increase, weather you like it or not, will result in 2 things: Your missiles will reach the target faster, and they will do more damage as it will be unable to escape the missiles explosion area by using its speed.

I can't really explain it any better, theres a new EFT thats already been mocked up with these stats, you should hunt that down and see the difference in the projected DPS graphs against various targets, I think maybe that might help lessen some of the angst you feel right now