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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Tim Ryder
Flippin DaBird Corporation 2
2
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Posted - 2013.05.14 10:57:00 -
[421] - Quote
Even disregarding the change in launcher count and bonuses for the Raven Navy, one big problem still remains. The fact that you'll still want to use rigors or flares means that your launchers eat CPU. We're having to feed an extra launcher CPU that simply isn't there even with WU V and Launcher Rigging IV. It's already tight enough to need a co-processor for some fits, high end xl booster and AB for instance. 45 CPU simply is not enough to drive a single launcher, much less that *and* another midslot.
Talking PvE mission fits, of course, I know nothing of PvP fits. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
Whores in space
249
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:03:00 -
[422] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Pattern Clarc wrote:Doesn't anyone in general think the explosion velocity bonus should be a dual bonus that reduces signature resolution as well?
Compared to a tracking bonus, it's a bit weak imo. That would be the same as a trcking bonusthat also reduces signature of guns. The mechanics exist on both types of weapon systemes.. Explosion velocity bonus are not weak if the ship has a high enough base DPS. Just missiles are very hard to balance.. they get very weak very fast agaisnt fast moving targets... or they stay too powerful against slow targtets. It's mostly damage application vs smaller ships. Vs a cruiser, napocs will be doing almost all of its damage to anything orbiting out side of 25km. The precision missile raven on the other hand will be doing about a 1/3 with out painters or rigs.
Maybe, but i think PVP only when I talk about balance. And an missiles at very close range are much more efficient.
I can kill an new NAvy APOC with a BELLICOSE orbiting it close with AB. I would die very fast against a new Navy raven.
Its all tradefoff.
At same time there are no trackign disruptors affectign missiles. IF trackign disruptors start to affect missiles, then sure missiles shoudl receive MODULES that boost both explosion velocity and signature. |
Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:08:00 -
[423] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
Again: produce a scenario where the Cruise CNR will be worse after Odessey than before.
Fit Torps - Done. (just trolling a little)
To be more serious, the new CNR will struggle with fittings, no utility highslot anymore, not enough CPU/PG to fit an active Tank (with cap-boosters ofcourse) etc.. |
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:14:00 -
[424] - Quote
So is this really intentional?
Raven effectively 8 launchers.
Bonus for missile range.
Typhoon effectively 8 launchers
Bonus for damage application.
Golem effectively 8 launchers.
Bonus to damage application, range, tank and looting.
SNI effectively 8 launchers
Nerfed tank bonus.
NEW CN Raven effectively 8 launchers
Umm... range bonus for missiles when they talk about cruise missiles? Typhoon's damage application bonus.
Typhoon FI effectively 8.25 launchers.
37.5% ROF bonus to AC's in top of the best missile dps ship.
Current CN Raven effectively ~9 launchers
Bonus for range.
Every missile BS will have the exact same raw dps, except for Typhoon FI which surprise! is minmatar ship. Because of course minmatar need to have the best missile ships right?
Yeah, the new cnr will be applying it's dps better as default but who the heck flies any BS missile boat without tp's after odyssey? I can add tp's to my fitting myself thank you very much BUT i can't add that additional dps the current one has.
The only reason anyone flies CNR today is that extra launcher for the best missile dps boat! On the new one you can fit 1less tp's so you can erm... add even more tank when it's not even needed but deal same dps as Raven? Oh, almost forgot it took nerf to hitpoints.
" Along with the incoming buff to cruise missiles, this ship is going to be an animal. "
Nothing that Typhoon can't do with way less cost, also torpedo ships effectively took huge nerf.
Just how Amarr ships needed the bonus to laser capacitor use Caldari will now need damage application bonus to actually use our ships... because i can see the upcoming torp changes now, it will get the same treatment as cruise missiles and rendered practically useless unless on damage application bonused ship with atleast 3 tp's.
TLDR: CNR was hugely nerfed. You will have to be dumb to not see that. |
kari bourza
Capital Industries Research And Development
Fidelas Constans
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:14:00 -
[425] - Quote
Well this was very disappointing .... |
Donedy
Snuff Box
Urine Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:14:00 -
[426] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Want to point to you RIse that the current Fleet phoon with PROJECTILES outdamages the tempest with projectiles. That is sad.. and I did not even factor in the better slot layout of the typhoon.
BOTH the normal and fleet tempest must be more dangerous for a ship with DOUBLE damage bonus. Currently it cannot outdamage the typhoon, maelestrom, Hyperion, Megatron, armageddon in basiccally ANY relevant range !
The tempest current layout + bonus combination is HORRIBLE! IT you insist on keepign it then it would need to gain at LEAST 100/125 drone bay to match what the typhoon do with 1 single bonus!
And the tempest needs a 6th med. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
128
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:15:00 -
[427] - Quote
Gimme more Cynos wrote:Malcanis wrote:
Again: produce a scenario where the Cruise CNR will be worse after Odessey than before.
Fit Torps - Done. (just trolling a little) To be more serious, the new CNR will struggle with fittings, no utility highslot anymore, not enough CPU/PG to fit an active Tank (with cap-boosters ofcourse) etc..
The New one will have better damage application, You might even get away wit using one less TP, so You'll have more tank with the new one...
There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |
Nessa Aldeen
First Among Equals
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:16:00 -
[428] - Quote
[/quote]
math doesn't hold the field test, i fought enought missiles boats with my mach to ensure you that they won't apply full DPS.
eft is a great tool, as are math, but it doesn't make it all.
go on the field, with a mach vs a CNR / SNR and see by yourself
cruise CNR vs mach, i would never bet on the CNR, your face will be melted before you even reached 50% of it's shield.
but feel free to hunt mach with it, after you have lost a couple you might rethink your statement[/quote]
What on earth is a SNR..? Scorpion Navy Raven? or Sexy Navy Raven?
It's hard to explain to PVE-centric people about reality vs EFT, they have to be blown up first to make them understand it better. Simply put the Mach will just put the CNR into deep structure all the while chucking with its Core-X Mwd.
On a sidenote, for those who claim the SNI will be OP, please give me the crack you're taking. Also, let's all try and save the Tempest Fleet Issue before it get's relegated to oblivion (it's already in the abyss). |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
283
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:25:00 -
[429] - Quote
seth Hendar wrote:math doesn't hold the field test, i fought enought missiles boats with my mach to ensure you that they won't apply full DPS.
eft is a great tool, as are math, but it doesn't make it all.
go on the field, with a mach vs a CNR / SNR and see by yourself
cruise CNR vs mach, i would never bet on the CNR, your face will be melted before you even reached 50% of it's shield.
but feel free to hunt mach with it, after you have lost a couple you might rethink your statement
I never said I'd bet on the CNR, did I? :) If math is wrong, then I expect you to do the following:
1. Take out the Machariel with an MWD and a CNR with your usual missile fit, then launch missile on the overloading Mach. You'll notice that he's taking full damage (minus resists, of course) - even though it's speeding about, the oversized sig it gets from MWD mitigates that speed.
2. Now do the same, but equip that Machariel with AB. You'll notice it's actually taking LESS damage, even though it's slower.
If math didn't hold, how would this be possible?
What makes the difference isn't Mach's speed, it's how the ship performs relative to CNR (read: much better) plus how it stacks with links, boosters, etc. I wasn't correcting your claim that Mach would win. I was correcting your claim that Mach would mitigate damage because it's buzzing about with MWD. In fact, it's quite the opposite - I'm willing to bet you that a Mach standing perfectly still 50 km from the CNR can still win the fight as a proof that speed has nothing to do with it, just as I am willing to bet that a Vindicator will melt that Machariel at 10 km. |
amurder Hakomairos
Fellowship Of Lost Souls
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
50
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:29:00 -
[430] - Quote
So Raven and Typhoon are the winners, most others are meh, and Gallente gets kicked in the nuts. The "changes" to the Dominix suck. The T1 ship gets a major buff to drones and for the navy version we get nothing. No additional bonus, no 6th drone, no larger drone bay, no slot changes, etc. Oh but you did throw in a completely unnecessary sig bloom (+35, really?) to offset the "buff" to shields and armor.
Please do us a favor and don't rush these changes in. Actually put some thought into navy BS changes and do them properly. |
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Perihelion Olenard
159
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Posted - 2013.05.14 11:33:00 -
[431] - Quote
It's good to see the bonuses on the navy Dominix have stayed the same, it's getting more PG, and getting more HP. I doubt I'll use the navy Megathron for anything, though.
I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Mike Whiite
Cupid Stunts.
195
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:33:00 -
[432] - Quote
@ Nessa,
the reason the SNI will be OP or close to it, iis because of the CM Buf, and the buff for callibration on Riggs.
CM will go up 30%, *6 launchers *25% Roff on lvl 5.
resistance nerf is compensated by a buff in tank,
callibration should be able to fit t2 rigors, though with 8 midslots you might consider to put in an other launcher rigg.
because of it's 6 launchers it will probably have less CPU problems than it's brother.
extra low could be used on nano's or DCU's, maybe a Drone damage unit.
All in all it will be a very useful ship.
|
Jerick Ludhowe
JLT corp
448
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:35:00 -
[433] - Quote
Typhoon needs a nerf to it's weapon bonuses. two 7.5% bonuses (one being rof lol?) is a bit silly... If a damage bonus for projectiles is "madatory" then drop it to 5% damage per level, 7.5% rof is beyond moronic, sorry. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
9345
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:44:00 -
[434] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Typhoon needs a nerf to it's weapon bonuses. two 7.5% bonuses (one being rof lol?) is a bit silly... If a damage bonus for projectiles is "madatory" then drop it to 5% damage per level, 7.5% rof is beyond moronic, sorry.
The reasoning behind the typhoon bonuses is this:
The typhoon is intended to be flexible: it can be either a gunship or a missile ship. But however you fit it, then realistically it's only getting proper use from one bonus. So each of the two bonuses needs to be roughly equivalent to the normal dual-bonus.
Eg the Tempest gets +5% RoF and +5% damage. that gives it 1.25/0.75*6 = 10 equivalent turrets
The Navy Typhoon gets +7.5% RoF, and that gives it 6/0.625 = 9.6 equivalent turrets.
Its turret firepower isn't quite as good as the Tempest's, but it's fairly close.
Likewise, with a +7.5% damage bonus to missiles, it gets 6*1.375 = 8.25 equivalent launchers - slightly more than the Ravenkind, but without the secondary Raven bonuses that help in damage application, making it again a little inferior in practice, but still very competitive.
1 Kings 12:11
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Gordon Esil
Lambda Initiative
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:48:00 -
[435] - Quote
Ok so I remember CCP Rise told me I'll be happy when he start messing with the navy battleships...
And I'm HAPPY 
We still have a geddon with the old flavor, and I'm not a fan of tracking, but the navy apoc will be evern more insane while shooting nearby smaller targets |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
9345
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:50:00 -
[436] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:@ Nessa,
the reason the SNI will be OP or close to it, iis because of the CM Buf, and the buff for callibration on Riggs.
CM will go up 30%, *6 launchers *25% Roff on lvl 5.
resistance nerf is compensated by a buff in tank,
callibration should be able to fit t2 rigors, though with 8 midslots you might consider to put in an other launcher rigg.
because of it's 6 launchers it will probably have less CPU problems than it's brother.
extra low could be used on nano's or DCU's, maybe a Drone damage unit.
All in all it will be a very useful ship.
Those 8 midslots will eat plenty of CPU.
1 Kings 12:11
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Crellion
Parental Control
Raiden.
32
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Posted - 2013.05.14 11:52:00 -
[437] - Quote
There is NO excuse for doing that to the Navy Raven... seriously. It was about to get good again after so many years and then you go and stealth nerf it on the last possible moment.
Seriously I am happy I will be able to fit a Navy Phoon for uber dmg I am not stupid I will profit from this. But the CNR was king of missile max dps and it should have remained so - full stop. Sorry but srsly
Navy Mega looks nice tyvm.<3 for giving me cheaper Vindicator. Ihave 2 gathering dust somewhere :)
... but srsly that poor CNR ... RIP |
Karig'Ano Keikira
Tax Cheaters
49
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:54:00 -
[438] - Quote
-> Can you give me a scenario where the CNR post June 5th won't be better than it is now?
- Mission performance vs golem? basically no reason to fly it over golem if you can sit into one.
- tank / DPS performance vs SNI? SNI currently has better tank, but pays for it with lower dps; now it will have better tank and equal dps (with somewhat lower dps application)
Basically I don't have problems with it, what I don't like is devs took 'easy way out' and basically equalized missile ships dps wise, in process turning CNR into golem without TP and tractor bonuses that eats double the ammo. As a result, I would rank new CNR as worse then both SNI and golem PvE performance wise [while currently I would give it tie for first place compared to golem with SNI behind them*]
*: SNI is still great ship, offering some unique abilities such as ability to field massive rr + dps on full passive wh fit (sure golem or CNR can do it, but personally I would prefer SNI for that role for multiple reasons)
so currently we have three distinct ships, each with pros and cons, after changes we will pretty much have clear cut progression: CNR < SNI < golem which is imo step back
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Grim Destiny
Internal Security Services
Strategic Business Solutions
4
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Posted - 2013.05.14 11:55:00 -
[439] - Quote
According to this the megathron and typhoon will have same base speed while megathron will have LOWER mass than typhoon.
You give typhoon +1 turret and missile, but you reduce the amount of PG which wasn`t that good to begin with.
Typhoon should get a bump in PG rather than loose base speed you should bring it up to 145 or so AND keep the typhoon mass lower than megathron. It just doesn`t make any sense to have mega suddenly outfly the typhoon.
The navy mega looks really good and will do well in its role.
As for the typhoon the slots and bonuses are fine and balanced, but the stat changes really don`t do it any favours. |
Jerick Ludhowe
JLT corp
448
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:59:00 -
[440] - Quote
Navy geddon
"Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375(+200)"
Why? |
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Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:07:00 -
[441] - Quote
Karig'Ano Keikira wrote:-> Can you give me a scenario where the CNR post June 5th won't be better than it is now?
- Mission performance vs golem? basically no reason to fly it over golem if you can sit into one.
- tank / DPS performance vs SNI? SNI currently has better tank, but pays for it with lower dps; now it will have better tank and equal dps (with somewhat lower dps application)
Basically I don't have problems with it, what I don't like is devs took 'easy way out' and basically equalized missile ships dps wise, in process turning CNR into golem without TP and tractor bonuses that eats double the ammo. As a result, I would rank new CNR as worse then both SNI and golem PvE performance wise [while currently I would give it tie for first place compared to golem with SNI behind them*]
*: SNI is still great ship, offering some unique abilities such as ability to field massive rr + dps on full passive wh fit (sure golem or CNR can do it, but personally I would prefer SNI for that role for multiple reasons)
so currently we have three distinct ships, each with pros and cons, after changes we will pretty much have clear cut progression: CNR < SNI < golem which is imo step back
Don't try to argue with him, he won't get it. Shame he is CSM.
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Bereza Mia
Trade Federation of EVE
36
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:11:00 -
[442] - Quote
Johnson Oramara wrote:
NEW CN Raven effectively 8 launchers
Umm... range bonus for missiles when they talk about cruise missiles? Typhoon's damage application bonus.
Typhoon FI effectively 8.25 launchers.
37.5% ROF bonus to AC's in top of the best missile dps ship.
Don't forget Typhoon FI have 8.25 launchers AND 2 additional high slots (for example plus ~139 dps with T2 800 autocannons without gyros ).
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mynnna
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1116
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:27:00 -
[443] - Quote
So hey, gonna throw this in amongst the bickering.
Quote:[NEW Megathron Navy Issue, Fleet]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Internal Force Field Array I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Dark Blood Armor Explosive Hardener
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 150
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Garde II x5
Vespa EC-600 x5
930 DPS with Gardes (realistically, use sentries with longer range, but it's still a lot of dps), 150k EHP, aligns in 10 seconds, moves at 1033m/s, has a heavy neut if things try to go to zero on you, and only needs booster 150s at a minimum to be cap stable.
It's kinda good. Might be slightly disadvantaged in solo/small gang compared to the Vindicator, but it's a fine fleet ship.
Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Jerick Ludhowe
JLT corp
448
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:28:00 -
[444] - Quote
Bereza Mia wrote:
Don't forget Typhoon FI have 8.25 launchers AND 2 additional high slots (for example plus ~139 dps with T2 800 autocannons without gyros ).
and the phoon has 50m3 more bandwidth, a butt load more bay, and is faster...
all in all, the phoon is obviously the better ship of the two.
|
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
283
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:30:00 -
[445] - Quote
Karig'Ano Keikira wrote:- Mission performance vs golem? basically no reason to fly it over golem if you can sit into one.
The new Cruise CNR is always superior to the old Cruise CNR, therefore it should remain equal to Golem in your comparison. It's not as good as it could have been (read: overpowered against large targets), but it's good enough. You are of course free to fly the Golem with Cruise Missiles, but it's not gonna end well :) |
Nessa Aldeen
First Among Equals
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:34:00 -
[446] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:@ Nessa,
the reason the SNI will be OP or close to it, iis because of the CM Buf, and the buff for callibration on Riggs.
CM will go up 30%, *6 launchers *25% Roff on lvl 5.
resistance nerf is compensated by a buff in tank,
callibration should be able to fit t2 rigors, though with 8 midslots you might consider to put in an other launcher rigg.
because of it's 6 launchers it will probably have less CPU problems than it's brother.
extra low could be used on nano's or DCU's, maybe a Drone damage unit.
All in all it will be a very useful ship.
That's hardly OP. Again, it's a matter of damage application. I would say it's more inline instead of some poor cousin. It lacks the Golem's packing so much goodness. For it to be a true beast, it needs 7, then we can yeah, this is a dps animal.
As to the CNR being nerfed, there is no pleasing you lot. With CML boost, the application of damage plus an extra launcher will just hit ships harder instead of lobbing ineffective missiles damage. Add the rigs, you'll will murder NPCs faster, if that is your concern. Comparing the CNR/SNI to a Golem is like comparing two different roles. The Golem is designed for PVE and not much else, as a result it should be that good considering the amount of training that's being put into them. This also makes the Golem on par with the rest of the Marauders instead of just being "Meh, my Vargur kills everything, Golem is sucks" comment. |
Nessa Aldeen
First Among Equals
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:41:00 -
[447] - Quote
Crellion wrote:There is NO excuse for doing that to the Navy Raven... seriously. It was about to get good again after so many years and then you go and stealth nerf it on the last possible moment.
Seriously I am happy I will be able to fit a Navy Phoon for uber dmg I am not stupid I will profit from this. But the CNR was king of missile max dps and it should have remained so - full stop. Sorry but srsly
Navy Mega looks nice tyvm.<3 for giving me cheaper Vindicator. Ihave 2 gathering dust somewhere :)
... but srsly that poor CNR ... RIP
The CNR hasn't been King of Missiles for a LONGGG TIME. That belongs to the Golem. Period. Even after this patch, the Golem will still remain the overall King especially with Marauder V. Your protest over the CNR being gimped is the incorrect assessment, the CNR has been limping for such a long while, these bonuses will make it DPS potential realized as opposed on EFT paper.
CPU has never been an issue for me for fits, but I doubt that is the case for many. So bumping CPU for CNR, SNI, TFI as well as the Pest, is necessary. |
Gordon Esil
Lambda Initiative
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 13:02:00 -
[448] - Quote
Ok on second quick thoughts:
Tracking on navpoc did not make me happy
Signature radius on ngeddon did not make me happy
The cap reduction on the navpoc did not make me happy
The cap changes on the ngeddon did not make me happy |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
9347
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 13:03:00 -
[449] - Quote
Well I guess some people won't be convinced. I guess I'll stop trying to persuade and put up some lowball buy orders instead. We'll let the market do the talking.
I have to say that I am surprised that the mission runner community - the one set of people I'd have assumed were absolutely familair with the value of increased mission precision - aren't alert to the value of what is effectively a free target painter that automatically always works with no stacking penalty or cycle time, but there you go.
I personally will continue to use my CNR for casual ISK making, and I fully expect to make more ISK with it. In fact I'll probably ditch my Tengu, because the CNR will significantly outperform it against everything now.
1 Kings 12:11
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Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 13:10:00 -
[450] - Quote
Nessa Aldeen wrote:Crellion wrote:There is NO excuse for doing that to the Navy Raven... seriously. It was about to get good again after so many years and then you go and stealth nerf it on the last possible moment.
Seriously I am happy I will be able to fit a Navy Phoon for uber dmg I am not stupid I will profit from this. But the CNR was king of missile max dps and it should have remained so - full stop. Sorry but srsly
Navy Mega looks nice tyvm.<3 for giving me cheaper Vindicator. Ihave 2 gathering dust somewhere :)
... but srsly that poor CNR ... RIP The CNR hasn't been King of Missiles for a LONGGG TIME. That belongs to the Golem. Period. Even after this patch, the Golem will still remain the overall King especially with Marauder V. Your protest over the CNR being gimped is the incorrect assessment, the CNR has been limping for such a long while, these bonuses will make it DPS potential realized as opposed on EFT paper. CPU has never been an issue for me for fits, but I doubt that is the case for many. So bumping CPU for CNR, SNI, TFI as well as the Pest, is necessary.
With pure missile dps fits CNR IS the king, nothing can match it. Golem has same dps as Raven but applies it better while having monster tank. CNR is the obvious choice if you want the most highest missile dps on missions and know what you are doing. With CNR i have finished guristas extravaganza already while Golem would have just entered the final pocket.
I'd like to introduce you to a module i have been using long time, it's called Target Painter. I tend to fit 1-3 of them depending if i fly cruise or torp fitted ships. And voila~ my damage application problems are gone. |
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