Whatever dude. Any comments on the other races or are you a one-BS type of guy?

It'd be both more useful in PVE and PVP.

And in a Golem you will still get jammed even withGrav comp 5 and losing a mid slot to ECCM or a low slot to a Sensor Backup array.. You don't want to be jammed in the middle of a Guristas Forlorn Hub (after a double spawn) or part 3 of fleet staging point lol, trust me. If you are you want FoF missles, and the new CNR will throw out more effective FoF missles while being less likely still to get jammed in the 1st place.

That's just guristas space, you really REALLY don't want a Golem to get neuted out from under it's active tank (losing it's target painters in the process) in Blood Raider space. Golem loses 100% of it's damage projection powers if neuted to zero cap, new CNR doesn't lose it all, just the target painter. fitting a cap booster in BR space will save you...at the expense of damage projection OR tank on the Golem, New CNR just give up the unbonused TP......

Like I said, this new CNR offers some alternative the Goelm can't match in null pve.

I don't see how (taken all together with the cruise buff) the current CNR is -not- useful in PVE, andthis new one will have an extra mid slot, more room for rigs like normal BS, an extra launcher that at least partially compensates to the RoF bonus loss and a damage application bonus that will help it kill small things faster (which is good in high sec but booty-grabbingly awesome in null).

It will be able to do what a Golem does almost, without all that annoying as hell TP juggling, while being cheaper and easier to train for.


What magical thing is supposed to happen to make the CNR worse at PVE than it is right this moment other than not being able to use a tractor beam or drone link augmenter?

I'm not sure why you're being so difficult about this. The ship you're extolling the virtues of already exists. The Golem has a native missile damage application bonus, 7 mids, and 8 effective launchers. Except it also gets utility high slots, a tank bonus, and an extra damage application bonus. You complain about the painter bonus - but ignoring it leaves you tons of room for copious amounts of ECCM.

The new CNR is just bad.

-Liang

In actual practice , explosion radius bonus will make the Golem's bonus look like peanuts when your taking about cruise missiles and frigs (it's why Rigors are better than Flares for cruise boats). The Golem is a Torp boat and crap at cruises, the new CNR is built for cruises and will be more useful in the kinds of pve where you'd use them.

I think you're in morning for your CNR Torp monster, but it's ok...you still have the Golem .

I'm not sure why you're being so difficult about this. The ship you're extolling the virtues of already exists. The Golem has a native missile damage application bonus, 7 mids, and 8 effective launchers. Except it also gets utility high slots, a tank bonus, and an extra damage application bonus. You complain about the painter bonus - but ignoring it leaves you tons of room for copious amounts of ECCM.

The new CNR is just bad.

-Liang

Saying that the Golem is "crap at cruise" and that the new CNR is going to be decent in the same breath is simply mind blowing. They're exactly the same ship, except that the Golem is very very significantly better.

-Liang

Only in the ways you say you use it. In the ways others use it it will be a marked improvement. Even if one were to concede it was "just like the Golem" (I do not), it's a cheaper, easeir to train for, less jammable, more survivable in null sec Golem.

Saying that the Golem is "crap at cruise" and that the new CNR is going to be decent in the same breath is simply mind blowing. They're exactly the same ship, except that the Golem is very very significantly better.

-Liang

Ed: In case you forgot, the reason the Golem is known as a "torp boat" is because the CNR was so much better at cruise due to having more raw DPS. The amped up damage application was necessary with torps... not so much with cruise. Now the only differences between them is that the CNR has worse damage application, worse tank, no utility, and more sensor strength.

Only in the ways you say you use it. In the ways others use it it will be a marked improvement. Even if one were to concede it was "just like the Golem" (I do not), it's a cheaper, easeir to train for, less jammable, more survivable in null sec Golem.

Hey Grath

Although I hate PL and you and since you are in PL, but I have to applaud for doing a great job combating the many idiocy statements shown here in this thread. Keep up the good work!

For the rest , here are some videos you might want to watch:

E-UNI Combat Mechanics 101, part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz9NtV-AI1k

E-UNI Combat Mechanics 101, part 2 -> around 2:25 in this video talks about explosion velocity **just a heads up :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKG60p2jQjg

By the way, I am also a mission runner. Plz don't put all of us in the same boat. Thank you.

Agreed.
In this case, the "8 turrets" intention is not meant to get the same DPS as before, it's to get more DPS than it's T1 counterpart.

CCP Fozzie has stated before that Navy (and even T2) isn't always meant as a straight upgrade (damage-wise) to its T1 counterpart. Specialization (in T2) lends for ships being better in certain areas (speed, in the case of the Vaga vs Stabber), while Navy can represent a straight survivability buff, especially when taking into account that the T1 ship might be putting out respectable damage, as is the case with the Mega and its 7 double bonused turrets and 8 lows. That's not to say that some Navy ships don't get unique bonuses and more damage (looks at Vexor NI).

Then use a Typhoon. Same real DPS, but more survivable still. Or use a Fleet Typhoon. More raw DPS, but more survivable still.

-Liang

Ed: Also, no it will not be a marked improvement. Leaving the CNR completely alone would be an improvement over the current model, even with the extra mid. That's why I'm so irritated about the change. I like the extra mid and all but now the ship is just a really ****** Golem.

I actually commented on the battleships individually. But here, just because you're a special snowflake:
- Navy Geddon: I highly disapprove of the giant increase in sig radius. It's a totally unwarranted nerf.
- NApoc: I have no comment. I don't fly the Apoc or NApoc now, and don't really intend to. I might fly it with the new changes.
- CNR: I highly disapprove of trading the ROF bonus for 8 launchers. The damage application bonus is a cool idea. I like the extra mid.
- CNS: I am completely mindblown that CCP thinks the ship may be too powerful. The extra low is most likely to be used for fitting mods.
- Navy Mega: Doesn't seem dramatically changed really.
- Navy Domi: So glad he didn't take away the hybrid bonus. The increased calibration is gonna be Awesomeness.
- Fleet Phoon: Fully bonused 6/6 is pretty cool. They seem pretty intent on pushing a shield tank on it and it ate a small mobility nerf. I really preferred the armor tank.
- Fleet Pest: Meh. I own one and don't use it. I doubt I'll use it after this either.

-Liang

while Navy can represent a straight survivability buff, especially when taking into account that the T1 ship might be putting out respectable damage, as is the case with the Mega and its 7 double bonused turrets and 8 lows.

Guess you didn't catch the sarcasm dude. I read the whole thread but you seem to only hark on about the CNR.

Can you propose a scenario where the CNR will be worse on June 5th than it is right now?

Nobody seems to give a damn about the geddon's sig increase. It's probably the next biggest thing on my list.

-Liang

Nobody seems to give a damn about the geddon's sig increase. It's probably the next biggest thing on my list.

-Liang

Nobody seems to give a damn about the geddon's sig increase. It's probably the next biggest thing on my list.

-Liang

Well it's sig radius is smaller than the Navy Domi and the Navy Scorpion so I really don't know what your gripe is with that one...

As a GÇÿcombatGÇÖ ship, it will get some increased hitpoints along with other tweaks to its base stats, but its overall performance shouldnGÇÖt change much.

I too am unimpressed with the CNR's loss of its RoF bonus for mission oriented PvE. Tentative numbers: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_CLlTV8bSxNZUhPMlQ2NFdJRzg/edit?usp=sharing

You want to look at TTK (time to kill.)

The "Cruise Buff" CNR (middle top) is a CNR with just the cruise buff, 7 launchers and 400 rig points. It generally performs better than the 8 launcher, Er bonus CNR (Odyssey CNR, upper right.)

The Odyssey CNR pretty matches the Cruise Golem if you put rigors on the Golem. On the down side, NPC defenders hurt the Golem.

However, the "Cruise Buff" CNR (with the RoF bonus intact) would out-perform a Javelin torpedo Golem and is very (too?) competitive with a CN Torp Golem.


On a side note, the SNI and Navy Typhoon have me concerned, especially the Navy Phoon with its 8.25 effective launchers and five sentries?

Nobody seems to give a damn about the geddon's sig increase. It's probably the next biggest thing on my list.

-Liang

I've mentioned it in this thread. I'll be pushing for a review of this stat because I don't see why the Navgeddon needs to be so fat.