why dont the minmatar get something to murder small stuff ?

I am concerned about how much dps that navy domi has though... any ideas?

CNR is king of PVE again?

That, combined with the new tracking bonus along with increased agility and speed will hopefully provide for a very powerful laser platform.

Navy Armageddon. Long live the king.

Very happy to see that we will have at least some remnant of the old Armageddon design for those who enjoyed the previous version of the T1 hull.

But the Navy Apoc... Shudder.


It's a bit lighter on it's feet, I'll give you that.

But in both the Large Energy Turrets and Amarr Tech 1 Battleship threads, we have repeatedly expounded upon the tracking bonus being very lackluster for the Apocalypse.

It really only helps in one way, and that is firing at cruiser size ships (who happen to be a near perfect transversal, at that).

It offers little to no benefit against other ship types at nearly every range. And it's cap runs dry remarkably fast just firing it's own guns.

Are we just bulling through this point for the hell of it, or are the numbers disputable in some way? Do I have to resort to some serious vernacular here, and say "feedbak plox"? The community at large is only happy with the new Apoc design vision in one way, the new model. Otherwise the Apoc response has been overwhelmingly negative.

Being a mostly dedicated Gallente pilot here is my feed back.

I will say that its sad that Gallente does not have any 8 gun battleship (I just love the feel of a full rack of guns). Can the Navy Mega get rid of the missile launchers that are basically useless and do not feel right and instead get an 8 gun Mega Navy.

I am ok with the Domi navy being both guns and drones. I always feel Navy issues should be all about damage and thick tank.

Want to point to you RIse that the current Fleet phoon with PROJECTILES outdamages the tempest with projectiles. That is sad.. and I did not even factor in the better slot layout of the typhoon.


BOTH the normal and fleet tempest must be more dangerous for a ship with DOUBLE damage bonus. Currently it cannot outdamage the typhoon, maelestrom, Hyperion, Megatron, armageddon in basiccally ANY relevant range !


The tempest current layout + bonus combination is HORRIBLE! IT you insist on keepign it then it would need to gain at LEAST 100/125 drone bay to match what the typhoon do with 1 single bonus!

Just get rid of the turrets on the SNI and add +1 missile launcher hardpoint instead...

You're insane. Range and tracking bonused megapulse with Scorch L ar going to make the battlefield hell for medium and even small ships within 90Km.

Maybe a good moment for marauders rebalance?

Want to point to you RIse that the current Fleet phoon with PROJECTILES outdamages the tempest with projectiles. That is sad.. and I did not even factor in the better slot layout of the typhoon.


BOTH the normal and fleet tempest must be more dangerous for a ship with DOUBLE damage bonus. Currently it cannot outdamage the typhoon, maelestrom, Hyperion, Megatron, armageddon in basiccally ANY relevant range !


The tempest current layout + bonus combination is HORRIBLE! IT you insist on keepign it then it would need to gain at LEAST 100/125 drone bay to match what the typhoon do with 1 single bonus!

N-Raven - good god that thing will be a beast

ARMAGEDDON NAVY ISSUE
...
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375(+200)/

We're with you on this. The top of the list has a whole bunch of stuff on it, but Maruaders are there somewhere =)

This list. I don't suppose we can get any sneak peeks at what's in store for rebalance in the near future? Not in any order, obviously, but just to see what's on the menu.

Want to point to you RIse that the current Fleet phoon with PROJECTILES outdamages the tempest with projectiles. That is sad.. and I did not even factor in the better slot layout of the typhoon.


BOTH the normal and fleet tempest must be more dangerous for a ship with DOUBLE damage bonus. Currently it cannot outdamage the typhoon, maelestrom, Hyperion, Megatron, armageddon in basiccally ANY relevant range !


The tempest current layout + bonus combination is HORRIBLE! IT you insist on keepign it then it would need to gain at LEAST 100/125 drone bay to match what the typhoon do with 1 single bonus!

Of course, no promises in terms of order or anything - but the short list includes things like medium rails, hacs, eafs, beams, some other t2 classes like inties/maurders, and some other mods which i don't want to name atm incase they get pushed back awhile. =)

Of course, no promises in terms of order or anything - but the short list includes things like medium rails, hacs, eafs, beams, some other t2 classes like inties/maurders, and some other mods which i don't want to name atm incase they get pushed back awhile. =)

Somehow typo'd the Navy Thron - its not losing a drone - sorry about that.

Remember that it's losing the damage bonus: it now has 8 effective launchers, the same as the standard Raven.

please tell me TD's with missiles are on there and command links /T3 nerf and command ships

Somehow typo'd the Navy Thron - its not losing a drone - sorry about that.

Phoon is supposed to outgank it...

Somehow typo'd the Navy Thron - its not losing a drone - sorry about that.

TEMPEST FLEET ISSUE
The Tempest Fleet Issue is becoming MinmatarGÇÖs GÇÿcombatGÇÖ battleship, and as a result will move more solidly into a role that it already takes on as a very strong projectile platform with an armor base GÇô something that is difficult to find elsewhere. The Tempest, as always, wants to occupy a space between attack and combat, and therefor has unusually high speed and unusually low sig for its role.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

Slot layout: 8H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets, 4 launchers
Fittings: 17500 PWG(+450), 580 CPU(+3)
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 10200(+884) / 10800(+369) / 9000(-961)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5500(+187.5) / 1150s(-4.875s)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130(-2) / .115(+.007) / 103300000 / 16.47s(+1s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 100
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 74km(+11.5km) / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Ladar Sensor Strength(+.25)
Signature radius: 350(+10)

ARMAGEDDON NAVY ISSUE
The Armageddon Navy Issue will not follow the new tech 1 Armageddon design. Instead, it will continue to do what it has been doing as an efficient laser brawler. The Navy Geddon is getting plenty of use the way it is now, and we didnGÇÖt see a need to make an GÇÿimprovedGÇÖ version of the new tech 1 Geddon. As a GÇÿcombatGÇÖ ship, it will get some increased hitpoints along with other tweaks to its base stats, but its overall performance shouldnGÇÖt change much.

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% Large Energy Turret rate of fire
+10% Large Energy Turret cap use

Slot layout: 8H, 4M, 8L; 7 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 17500 PWG(+175), 560 CPU(+3)
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 8500(+296.5) / 11500(+1539) / 10000(+684)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 6000(+687.5) / 1100s(+125s)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 105 / .13(+.002) / 105200000 / 18.96s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375(+200)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km(+5k) / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 26 Radar Sensor Strength (+4.75)
Signature radius: 440 (+70)

The idea with the Tempest is that it fits really well into a lot of armor based compositions, acting more or less like an armor Maelstrom. It still has higher alpha than the Typhoon, with a lot more hp and similar utility. It goes a lot faster than the other combat battleships and has much smaller sig, so it definitely isn't eclipsed completely.

I can understand why some of you might want something with a bit more pop and I promise to talk with Fozzie and the rest of the department to make sure we're happy with this form before Odyssey goes out.

The tempest is still the worst battleship in the game, no suprise there. It underpreforms in literally every role it can take. Give it an extra turret and 7.5% ROF / 7.5% falloff bonus or something instead of the archaiac double damage bonus designed in 2004 to compensate for underpowered minmatar guns.

A bit dissapointed in gallente ones. Mega stays pretty much the same, which is good. Dominix is a throwback to the old one which is nice for the nostalgic. I'd prefer to see it as the ultimate drone battleship but I guess you can't have them all.

Navy geddon and apoc look pretty sweet sweet.

Overall the changes are good, CNR and SNI fill different neiches within the same playing field. One's got better tank, the other is faster and with slightly better damage application.

The idea with the Tempest is that it fits really well into a lot of armor based compositions, acting more or less like an armor Maelstrom. It still has higher alpha than the Typhoon, with a lot more hp and similar utility. It goes a lot faster than the other combat battleships and has much smaller sig, so it definitely isn't eclipsed completely.

I can understand why some of you might want something with a bit more pop and I promise to talk with Fozzie and the rest of the department to make sure we're happy with this form before Odyssey goes out.

GALLENTE

MEGATHRON NAVY ISSUE
The Navy Thron will be GallenteGÇÖs GÇÿattackGÇÖ battleship, and therefore will adjust in many of the same ways that the tech 1 Megathron did, including the switch from damage bonus to rate of fire.

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
+10% Large Hybrid Turret falloff

Slot layout: 8H, 4M, 8L; 7 turrets, 1 launchers(-1)
Fittings: 16275 PWG, 630 CPU(+25)
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 9000(-316) / 9500(-461) / 10500(-750)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 6000 (+375) / 1150s(-4.875s)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130(+10) / .105 (-.005) / 98400000(-6800000) / 15.01s(-1.84s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 175
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7
Sensor strength: 25 Magnetometric Sensor Strength (-1.25)
Signature radius: 385(-15)

Ok ok, Just try to remember that navy ships are used by peopel trying to get an edge therefore they must have somethign goign for them. WHen you undock on a fleet tempest you wil have a plan ( Fleet doctrines in 0.0 are not included in taht, 0.0 combat became so stupid and mindless that I do not even dare to brign it up in this discussion).


More alpha then typhoon is not a reason to use it. If you want alpha you will go maelstrom, if you want mobility you go typhoon. Being A little bit bad at EVERYTHING is not a role. No one will select a combat ship based on that!


It must be GOOD at something. That is IMPORTANT! 2 damage bonus ship, it shows its supposed to be a gangy ship. Bring its turrets to 7 and lower drone bay a bit.. Or keep turrets and increase drone bay. Give a reason for anyoen select a tempst over some other ship in some realistic scenario.

Remember that it's losing the damage bonus: it now has 8 effective launchers, the same as the standard Raven.

I don't use my navy domi with guns can you please change it to be like the regular domi with the drone optimal/tracking bonus?

Of course, no promises in terms of order or anything - but the short list includes things like medium rails, hacs, eafs, beams, some other t2 classes like inties/maurders, and some other mods which i don't want to name atm incase they get pushed back awhile. =)

A 125mbit drone bay and two utility highs (not to mention a ton of speed) isn't enough to murder small stuff?

Pretty much. The Fleet Typhoon has more EFT DPS, but the Navy Raven will apply it rather more effectively.

i bolded the part that needs to be fixed... tracking bonus for the tech I version is ok... but gal need a fleet ship and a mega navy issue can be that fleet ship... and the only way to make it so it to give it a fall off bonus... that will bring large neutrons with null into fleet bs range...

otherwise you are just making a pretty station game ship...

i bolded the part that needs to be fixed... tracking bonus for the tech I version is ok... but gal need a fleet ship and a mega navy issue can be that fleet ship... and the only way to make it so it to give it a fall off bonus... that will bring large neutrons with null into fleet bs range...

otherwise you are just making a pretty station game ship...

We're with you on this. The top of the list has a whole bunch of stuff on it, but Maruaders are there somewhere =)

I don't use my navy domi with guns can you please change it to be like the regular domi with the drone optimal/tracking bonus?

i too was hoping for this... but the flame was so high when they removed the regular domis turret bonus that alas we are stuck with a bonus we dont use.

I am concerned about how much dps that navy domi has though... any ideas?

so about navy apoc.besides the fact that you guys ruined amarr battleship,you guys are picking now on factiones ones too?

so besides the fact that you guys are removing the capacitor bonus on navy apoc hull,of wich amarr lazors ships desperate need it,because simply lasers are consuming so much cap and then again you guys arent really doing anything about it,you also nerf the capacitor of the ship too.

now,i`m not sure if that i see at stats there is a mistake,but you guys might wanna reconsider

Looks nice, these should be the T1 version stats tho :)

RAVEN NAVY ISSUE
The CNR will be CaldariGÇÖs attack battleship, like the new tech 1 Raven. I wanted the Navy Raven to get something new, and the new Navy Drake pointed in a pretty good direction. We are giving the CNR an 8th launcher to make up for the loss of the rate of fire bonus, and replacing rate of fire with a bonus to explosion radius. Along with the incoming buff to cruise missiles, this ship is going to be an animal.

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius
+10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity

Slot layout: 8H, 7M(+1), 5L; 0 turrets , 8 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 12000 PWG(+1075), 780 CPU(+45)
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 10500(-750) / 8000(-1961) / 9500(-461)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5900(+587.5) / 1150s(-4.875s)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 123(+29) / .12(-.008) / 97300000(-2000000) / 16.19s(-1.43s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 100
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 105(-1.25) / 7
Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric(+.5)
Signature radius: 410(-50)

SCORPION NAVY ISSUE
The Navy Scorpion is taking the GÇÿcombatGÇÖ role for Caldari, and more or less staying in its current form. It will pick up an extra low slot, since it was slot deficient for no reason before. In light of the coming cruise missile change, we are a bit concerned with the power level for the Scorp, so weGÇÖll be keeping a close eye on this one, as we still feel it could wind up being too strong depending on how the meta settles out.

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
5% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo rate of fire
4% bonus to shield resistances

Slot layout: 7H, 8M, 5L(+1); 4 turrets , 6 launchers
Fittings: 11000 PWG(+650), 780 CPU(-7)
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 11500(+1538.5) / 8500(+297) / 9000(+797)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5500(+187.5) / 1100s(+12.5s)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 103 / .125(+.009) / 103600000 / 17.95s(+1.29s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km / 75 / 7
Sensor strength: 30 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 465(+35)

Of course, no promises in terms of order or anything - but the short list includes things like medium rails, hacs, eafs, beams, some other t2 classes like inties/maurders, and some other mods which i don't want to name atm incase they get pushed back awhile. =)

honestly, cap is an issue for new amarr players, they should have kept the cap bonus to t1 hulls and then change the navy ones to have tracking or some other

on t1 it is excellent for newer players to use and get into to get the isk flowing without as much cap skills, on more expensive ships you can thus expect that players have good cap skills and knows fitting around cap warfare and stick on non crutch bonuses.

Lol, please never post in balancing threads ever again

Has anyone run the math yet on whether we're seeing more or less applied DPS from the new CNR when firing at some standard targets?

Has anyone run the math yet on whether we're seeing more or less applied DPS from the new CNR when firing at some standard targets?

sorry cant help you out there... falloff is much better then the tracking for fleets...

tracking is nice if you dont have proper tackle but the fall off = more range which is needed for a fleet ship....

and you should know that.

after some deriving i have managed to come up with the following:

6*1.25=7.5

8>7.5

:3

Nah that would make a nice kronos bonus maybe marauders could become a HAC version of battleships... make them smaller and more mobile with MWD bonus and projection bonuses we could have an assault line from frigs to battleships.

You're just plain wrong.

Your math is bad.

Old CCNR: 7 / .75 = 9.3333 eff launcher
New CCNR: 8 * 1.3 = 10.4 eff launcher

Old TCNR: 7 / .75 = 9.333 eff launcher
New TCNR: 8 eff launcher

-Liang

You'll get a bit more if you fit cruise, quite a bit less if you fit torps. They're straight up pigeon holing the ship into cruise and then keeping the missile velocity bonus.

-Liang

It is good at something. Best armor alpha ship. Stop trying to meta game against goons.

This is some really dumb theorycrafting. All ships able to fit cruise will get that 30% bonus, not just the CNR.

If anything, torps are getting the better end of this damage application boost, since it will apply to targets between the size of a torp's optimal and a cruise optimal

sigh...

ok mr legion... how will you guys make a cat version of the navy mega?

in the end the rokh is still a better option for rails and blasters... and costs less

so really i cant see a fleet concept for the new mega...

as it stands i will continue using it for what its used now... station games... thats it.

the napoc is killer so is the scorp... plus that phoon just looks smexy...

but again gal are left out with out a fleet ship...

or are you again just going to reply with one line...

The idea with the Tempest is that it fits really well into a lot of armor based compositions, acting more or less like an armor Maelstrom. It still has higher alpha than the Typhoon, with a lot more hp and similar utility. It goes a lot faster than the other combat battleships and has much smaller sig, so it definitely isn't eclipsed completely.

I can understand why some of you might want something with a bit more pop and I promise to talk with Fozzie and the rest of the department to make sure we're happy with this form before Odyssey goes out.

Your math is bad.

Old CCNR: 7 / .75 = 9.3333 eff launcher
New CCNR: 8 * 1.3 = 10.4 eff launcher

Old TCNR: 7 / .75 = 9.333 eff launcher
New TCNR: 8 eff launcher

-Liang

i bolded the part that needs to be fixed... tracking bonus for the tech I version is ok... but gal need a fleet ship and a mega navy issue can be that fleet ship... and the only way to make it so it to give it a fall off bonus... that will bring large neutrons with null into fleet bs range...

otherwise you are just making a pretty station game ship...

Stuff ......

The idea with the Tempest is that it fits really well into a lot of armor based compositions, acting more or less like an armor Maelstrom. It still has higher alpha than the Typhoon, with a lot more hp and similar utility. It goes a lot faster than the other combat battleships and has much smaller sig, so it definitely isn't eclipsed completely.

I can understand why some of you might want something with a bit more pop and I promise to talk with Fozzie and the rest of the department to make sure we're happy with this form before Odyssey goes out.

*slow hand clap*

Congratulations CCP Rise, you've officially made your mark on the Amarrian national fleets not once, but twice. Both times I might add, making at least one ship in the line up broken and ruined. I wish to enlighten you to my opinion, and remind you that you have another thread to reply to, which I might add, feels like you have abandoned. I also know that this topic is to be filled with "constructive" criticism, which doesn't mean I'll be all accepting and forgiving; No, I'm going point out the flaws that you have once more generated, then pointing out how they could be countered and corrected so that the Amarrian's are not left without a decent fleet.

Firstly, the negative (ish) sides:

Navy Issue Armageddon

At least you've seen sense this time around and not, to put it politely, messed around with the Navy Issue of the Armageddon that you've done to the standard issue, which shockingly (not) shows absolutely zero relation apart from the enlarged drone bay. Maybe you should rectify that in the standard issue so that the it makes a better understanding of Navy Issue progression, rather than just a desperate reaction into realising your mistake and trying to rectify it in the vain hope that people will forgive you.

Now, I actually agree with the touched increases to the ship you have given it - it makes it a little easier to base values off if the numbers are flat rather than not. It's also a smallish increase to the EHP that the ship does rather need. I also see that you've kept in the 10% Cap bonus to the ship. Was this intentional or just an oversight given the obscene cap requirements the Amarrians have to endure as a racial body?

Navy Issue Apocalypse

Aaand it was going so well. Where do I begin?

It has been pointed out (and mathematically shown, since numbers apparently are your thing) that a ship with a 7.5% bonus to tracking will not be able to hit anything smaller than a perfectly transversal cruiser at level V. Now, I agree that a battleship should have difficulty hitting smaller vessels, however if someone has invested a lot of time and energy (like myself) into piloting one of the better mission running ships in the game, I want it be viable outside of that role as well - with that current change, it will not help outside of a PvE situation. I know I'm not the first to go into a PvP situation, but when I do and I'm in that ship, I would prefer it if I wasn't unable to hit the enemy because they were inside a Rifter - not to say I want to have instantly hitting ships regardless of size, but just somewhat of an actual ability.

I also see that you've struck this ship with the nerf bat in relation to the Armour/Shield values, but given it a small increase to the Hull. Again, yay to rounded numbers, but boo to a overall reduced tank for the silly "Combat Battleship" status. I also see that it (and the Armageddon) magically reacquire their much needed 8th Low slot, which shouldn't be called much in the way of a change since it already exists - Perhaps giving us a 5th med slot will equate the need to have extra Cap generation on that ship, since the other alterations are pretty unfair; Less cap with a shorter recharge times does not equal increased capacitor overall, and with the fairly minimal changes to the Laser Weapons still doesn't balance it out.


Now for the "constructive" side of things. I'm going to focus on the Apocalypse since that is the ship that you have decided to re-engineer into a role that doesn't suit it the most:

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+7.5% to Large Energy Turret optimal range
+7.5% to Large Energy Turret falloff range

Slot layout: 8H, 5M(+1), 8L; 8 turrets , 0 launchers(-2)
Fittings: 22000 PWG(+475), 580 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 9000(-316) / 11000(-250) / 10000(+39)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 7500 / 1000s(-154s)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110(+16) / .115(-.021) / 97100000(-2200000) / 15.48s(-3.24s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 100
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 76km(+8.5k) / 120(+1.25) / 7
Sensor strength: 25 Radar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 370(-30)


For the most part, I haven't "radically" altered it; it does have a little break to its shield/armour - a little more than the Armageddon in shields and less in Armour, and the same in hull - which is to give it's intended role a little more survivability than the standard issue. The speed I've dropped down to counter the increase in armour plate. I've also kept the cap at the same value whilst decreasing the recharge time by the new value - this will actually be a larger cap. The 5th Med I've added in so that the pilot can also have a modicum of cap regeneration, whilst still presenting an offensive ability as well. The tracking bonus is changed to a falloff bonus, as if it is meant to be a sniper, give it the range it deserves.

Now, you're probably going to say that "Oh noes, the NApoc is overpowered!!!!!1111!!!". To the players that think that, I say this: I want the Amarrian's to have a viable ship line. If we cannot be granted that in the standard line up, then I will fight tooth and nail once more to see that we keep it in the Naval line. I will not stand for the Amarrians (who are already hard enough to actually use decently) be sidelined once more.

Please let me know when you've read this CCP Rise (in this thread, +1 it, whatever) - I want to hear your opinions.

Firstly you don't understand how important the tracking bonus is.

Secondly you want to give the navy mega A FALLOFF bonus. It is a hybrid ship. Falloff bonus. Hybrid ship. It will get max 15km increase (without tes and tracking computers) from a 50 percent fall off bonus with 425mms. That is dog shi t. With 2 TCs its more like 25km. Awful. From a 50 percent bonus.

+7.5% to Large Energy Turret falloff range

Firstly you don't understand how important the tracking bonus is.

Secondly you want to give the navy mega A FALLOFF bonus. It is a hybrid ship. Falloff bonus. Hybrid ship. It will get max 15km increase (without tes and tracking computers) from a 50 percent fall off bonus with 425mms. That is dog shi t. With 2 TCs its more like 25km. Awful. From a 50 percent bonus.

There already are hybrid ships with falloff bonuses, Deimos for example, and it's a very good bonus.

Also, nobody has rails in mind with a falloff bonus, it's blasters which are actually mostly a falloff weapon. Fact: the only good range bonused blaster ammo is Null because it is THE ONLY ammo with a falloff bonus. It outdamages all the other range bonused ammo at virtually all ranges. An optimal bonus on blasters is complete ****.

5 lows on scorp navy????
I have a scorp navy toon. WHAT THE HELL SHOULD I DO WITH A 5th LOW????
4th ballistic control system will give me maybe 40 or 50 dp. Almost useless^^

*slow hand clap*

Congratulations CCP Rise, you've officially made your mark on the Amarrian national fleets not once, but twice. Both times I might add, making at least one ship in the line up broken and ruined. I wish to enlighten you to my opinion, and remind you that you have another thread to reply to, which I might add, feels like you have abandoned. I also know that this topic is to be filled with "constructive" criticism, which doesn't mean I'll be all accepting and forgiving; No, I'm going point out the flaws that you have once more generated, then pointing out how they could be countered and corrected so that the Amarrian's are not left without a decent fleet.

Firstly, the negative (ish) sides:

Navy Issue Armageddon

At least you've seen sense this time around and not, to put it politely, messed around with the Navy Issue of the Armageddon that you've done to the standard issue, which shockingly (not) shows absolutely zero relation apart from the enlarged drone bay. Maybe you should rectify that in the standard issue so that the it makes a better understanding of Navy Issue progression, rather than just a desperate reaction into realising your mistake and trying to rectify it in the vain hope that people will forgive you.

Now, I actually agree with the touched increases to the ship you have given it - it makes it a little easier to base values off if the numbers are flat rather than not. It's also a smallish increase to the EHP that the ship does rather need. I also see that you've kept in the 10% Cap bonus to the ship. Was this intentional or just an oversight given the obscene cap requirements the Amarrians have to endure as a racial body?

Navy Issue Apocalypse

Aaand it was going so well. Where do I begin?

It has been pointed out (and mathematically shown, since numbers apparently are your thing) that a ship with a 7.5% bonus to tracking will not be able to hit anything smaller than a perfectly transversal cruiser at level V. Now, I agree that a battleship should have difficulty hitting smaller vessels, however if someone has invested a lot of time and energy (like myself) into piloting one of the better mission running ships in the game, I want it be viable outside of that role as well - with that current change, it will not help outside of a PvE situation. I know I'm not the first to go into a PvP situation, but when I do and I'm in that ship, I would prefer it if I wasn't unable to hit the enemy because they were inside a Rifter - not to say I want to have instantly hitting ships regardless of size, but just somewhat of an actual ability.

I also see that you've struck this ship with the nerf bat in relation to the Armour/Shield values, but given it a small increase to the Hull. Again, yay to rounded numbers, but boo to a overall reduced tank for the silly "Combat Battleship" status. I also see that it (and the Armageddon) magically reacquire their much needed 8th Low slot, which shouldn't be called much in the way of a change since it already exists - Perhaps giving us a 5th med slot will equate the need to have extra Cap generation on that ship, since the other alterations are pretty unfair; Less cap with a shorter recharge times does not equal increased capacitor overall, and with the fairly minimal changes to the Laser Weapons still doesn't balance it out.


Now for the "constructive" side of things. I'm going to focus on the Apocalypse since that is the ship that you have decided to re-engineer into a role that doesn't suit it the most:

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+7.5% to Large Energy Turret optimal range
+7.5% to Large Energy Turret falloff range

Slot layout: 8H, 5M(+1), 8L; 8 turrets , 0 launchers(-2)
Fittings: 22000 PWG(+475), 580 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 9000(-316) / 11000(-250) / 10000(+39)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 7500 / 1000s(-154s)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110(+16) / .115(-.021) / 97100000(-2200000) / 15.48s(-3.24s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 100
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 76km(+8.5k) / 120(+1.25) / 7
Sensor strength: 25 Radar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 370(-30)


For the most part, I haven't "radically" altered it; it does have a little break to its shield/armour - a little more than the Armageddon in shields and less in Armour, and the same in hull - which is to give it's intended role a little more survivability than the standard issue. The speed I've dropped down to counter the increase in armour plate. I've also kept the cap at the same value whilst decreasing the recharge time by the new value - this will actually be a larger cap. The 5th Med I've added in so that the pilot can also have a modicum of cap regeneration, whilst still presenting an offensive ability as well. The tracking bonus is changed to a falloff bonus, as if it is meant to be a sniper, give it the range it deserves.

Now, you're probably going to say that "Oh noes, the NApoc is overpowered!!!!!1111!!!". To the players that think that, I say this: I want the Amarrian's to have a viable ship line. If we cannot be granted that in the standard line up, then I will fight tooth and nail once more to see that we keep it in the Naval line. I will not stand for the Amarrians (who are already hard enough to actually use decently) be sidelined once more.

Please let me know when you've read this CCP Rise (in this thread, +1 it, whatever) - I want to hear your opinions.

There already are hybrid ships with falloff bonuses, Deimos for example, and it's a very good bonus.

Also, nobody has rails in mind with a falloff bonus, it's blasters which are actually mostly a falloff weapon. Fact: the only good range bonused blaster ammo is Null because it is THE ONLY ammo with a falloff bonus. It outdamages all the other range bonused ammo at virtually all ranges. An optimal bonus on blasters is complete ****.

Nah that would make a nice kronos bonus maybe marauders could become a HAC version of battleships... make them smaller and more mobile with MWD bonus and projection bonuses we could have an assault line from frigs to battleships.

You DO know that precision skills and bonuses and such affect torps now, right? Going by this post and your last, it sure doesn't look like it.

e: Think I misunderstood what you were saying.

In any case, I'm at work and don't have the spreadsheet I was using, but I'm pretty sure that the new CNR will see a damage boost with torps against nearly anything but BS and caps. I'll check when I get home.

I don't use my navy domi with guns can you please change it to be like the regular domi with the drone optimal/tracking bonus?

TYPHOON FLEET ISSUE
With the Typhoon Fleet Issue we wanted to offer a home for the heavily trained Minmatar pilot who loves the extreme versatility that Matar can offer. To make that possible, while also picking up some of the new flavor from the tech 1 Typhoon, we are giving this ship the same treatment as the new Scythe Fleet Issue by making the split weapon bonus stronger. The Typhoon Fleet Issue will also be the GÇÿattackGÇÖ battleship, and like its former version, it is extremely fast for a battleship.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+7.5% to Cruise and Torpedo launcher damage
+7.5% to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire

Slot layout: 8H, 5M(+1), 7L(-1); 6 turrets(+1) , 6 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 13000 PWG(-125), 660 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 9500(+1296) / 9000(-316) / 9000(-316)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5800(+800) / 1100s(+12.5s)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 138(-5) / .11(-.0001) / 102600000 (-1000000) / 14.93s(-.059s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 200
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km(+5k) / 115 / 7
Sensor strength: 23 Ladar Sensor Strength(+.5)
Signature radius: 320

why dont the minmatar get something to murder small stuff ?

Any special reason why both bonuses are not rate of fire? Given that RoF bonus is better then raw damage bonus it seem this will disincentivise use of missiles on phoon F.I.

In fact 7.5 damage bonus to missile damage is only marginally better then 5% RoF bonus phoon F.I. currently has (+37.5% DPS vs. +33% DPS respectively)

5 lows on scorp navy????
I have a scorp navy toon. WHAT THE HELL SHOULD I DO WITH A 5th LOW????
4th ballistic control system will give me maybe 40 or 50 dp. Almost useless^^

Because Giving the Fleet Phoon 9.6 effective launchers is just a teeeny bit OP mate. As it is, it gets 9.2 and the best missile alpha of any subcap.

If you said the Navy Geddon isnt going to be an improved version of the T1 version, then WHY give it 125/375 droneboat size drone bay and bandwidth?

6 launchers with 7.5% damage/level is 8.25, actually. That's still more effective launchers than anything but the current CNR though, and is quite strong.

Some really cool stuff. Navy Apoc and Scorp are the big winners here, but the Raven and Phoon also look sexual. I do appreciate the throwback nature of the Navy Domi, as well.

There are some significant changes with cruise missiles and missile platforms in general. The final thing that I think is holding cruise missiles back is the HP of the missile itself. The cruise missile has the same HP as a heavy missile combined with a slower speed. The translation, of course, is that the missiles can be smartbombed off fairly trivially. That and the cruise missile platforms aren't exactly mobile. It would be a shame if these great ships get marginalized because of missile mechanics.

He clearly states that It won't go the same way as the T1 version. If you're right, why not give the Navy Domi a similar improvement and give it a 600m3 drone bay?

Navy geddon gets Increased tank, Capacitor AND dronebay.

Navy Domi gets Increased tank, little bit of Cap AND ?????

yes more drones is good.

what if missiles had 99% resistance?

Until there's an ewar that works on missiles like TDs do, I think it's good that smartbombs can counter them

Until there's an ewar that works on missiles like TDs do, I think it's good that smartbombs can counter them

perhaps remove some turrets from the domi with DDA's and mags its dps will be insane..
Scorp maybe remove some turrets why 4 turrets anyway?

On the other hand, smartbombs as "anti-missile ewar" are far more efficient than any available anti-turret ewar...

Navy Hyperion, Abaddon, Rokh and Maelstom - when?

Yeah if you're Amarr

navy hype? loose the tank bonus replace with a rof bonus? (like a big Exequror navy issue)

abaddon? more low slots?

rokh?
optimal range and rof bonus but also add more mid slots to make up for lost ehp from no resist bonus

mael?
damage bonus and falloff (make it a super alpha beast!)

Ugh, nevermind. I give up.

We're with you on this. The top of the list has a whole bunch of stuff on it, but Maruaders are there somewhere =)

Well once again the changes to the Navy Apoc don't really address what's screwed up with Amarr as a whole, and I feel like it's going to be a very long time before that actually happens.

Being a mostly dedicated Gallente pilot here is my feed back.

I will say that its sad that Gallente does not have any 8 gun battleship (I just love the feel of a full rack of guns). Can the Navy Mega get rid of the missile launchers that are basically useless and do not feel right and instead get an 8 gun Mega Navy.

I am ok with the Domi navy being both guns and drones. I always feel Navy issues should be all about damage and thick tank.

I strongly disagree with this. You're nerfing the torp RNI in favor of the cruise variant, and go so far as to explicitly tell us you're basing the entire ship design off of cruise. Then you keep the cruise missile velocity bonus. Given that you're pigeon holing the ship into cruise, doesn't it make far more sense to trade the velocity bonus for the explosion radius bonus instead?

7 launchers, I like my utility high slot and would rather keep the rof bonus over a explosion or velocity bonus tbh

This was my preference when asked. On the other hand, with the CML buff that's coming, the new CNR will still do something like 15 more cruise missile DPS than the current one. It's hard to complain about that.

Well, it's hard to get anyone to listen, anyway.

Plus the CNR's alpha is going to be pretty brutal.

The explosion radius bonus on the RNI is going to free up at least one rigor rig slot, giving more flexibility in rigging. The extra mid will give us a painter and plenty of space for tank, cap and a prop mod.

the cnr having the same base dps as the raven isn't a good thing imo, ok I know it will be better applied in this version but forcing it to use 8 launchers instead of the 6 of the raven to get the same result is painful.

For PvE specifically, I'd rather drop the target painter and keep the rigors (In fact I'll probably go to 2x T2 Rigor, 1x T2 Flare), because juggling the painter is annoying and :effort:

That gives 2 mids to play with, and I'm looking at a boost amp and drone mod so that I can use medium drones instead of lights to kill frigates....

Is there any plans on working on the torpedo's ?
As Liang has already "proved" .. the raven is put up for being a cruise missile ship, and torpedos are still bad.

dont forget about a mjd for mission...

some missions have gates that are pretty far apart... being able to insta jump 100km forward will help out...

It's not the same result, though: it's qualitatively superior in damage application and alpha.

They'll both be equally good for shooting structures and capitals, I suppose. For anything else, the CNR will be a quantum step ahead.

8 guns for the Navythron please.

Is there any plans on the torpedo's ?
As Liang has already "proved" .. the raven is put up for being a cruise missile ship, and torpedos are still bad.

It already got more damage from the drone bay.

I dunno man. Stop and think about it this way. The damage application on the CNR is already good enough that people weren't clamoring to use Cruise Golems despite the dramatically superior damage application. The new bonus is extremely underwhelming and an outright nerf to the CNR.

-Liang

FYI, the F-Tempest needs something like 4000 more power grid to be the armour equiv of the maelstrom, and that's before wanting to fit **** in your utility highs. Not that I care anymore, n-scorp, n-domi, n-phoon, n-raven. Waiting for the bombshell that will be the new price of all our shiney new toys.

torps are not bad on a raven or stealth bombers... cuss of the range bonus they get

but on a phoon... i am not sure i would use them mainly because they lack critical range to be usefull for a large weapon.

if it were up to me i would just increase flight time for torps so they can hit up to 35ish km on unbonused ships... then reduce the bonus on the stealth bombers so they dont get too much of a boost...

i would not mind a raven that can shoot torps out to 52km...

Mega ... make it a shield tanker 8-6-6 less drones

Can we reconsider the Navy Scorpion and make it a rail/blaster ship? Caldari have enough shield/missile combo but no strong navy/pirate caldari based gunboat.

Kindly shut up, seriously.... infact, just stop posting.

It was a crappy idea when you posted it in the T1 Battleship thread, it's still a crappy idea now. Go fly a Rokh if your have that much of a hard-on for a shield hybrid boat.

I like the changes! Especially the Raven will be a lot more flexible!

Would it be possible to give the CNR additional dedicated Launcher Hardpoints? It already looks a bit strange on the current CNR and will be even more strange with the additional Launcher...

[quote=Liang Nuren][quote=Malcanis]

Can you propose a scenario where the CNR will be worse on June 5th than it is right now?

Kindly shut up, seriously.... infact, just stop posting.

It was a crappy idea when you posted it in the T1 Battleship thread, it's still a crappy idea now. Go fly a Rokh if your have that much of a hard-on for a shield hybrid boat.

Can you propose a scenario where the CNR will be worse on June 5th than it is right now?

Overall the changes look ok to me. Still sad to lose the swiss-knife phoon obviously. :( In case you wonder where the swiss-knife aspect came from: 3 unbonused high slots to do with as you please ;)