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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
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Posted - 2013.05.29 19:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade? Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
4146
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Posted - 2013.05.29 19:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Because people like their Commodore 64s and with a mass upgrade of equipment on the consumer end, CCP will be forced to upgrade their hamsters from standard pet store brand to atomic mutant hamster/guinea pig hybrids. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Azami Nevinyrall
Carbon Circle Tactical Narcotics Team
875
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Posted - 2013.05.29 19:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
We're not getting a 64 bit client until they get 64 bit servers... I'm not entirely clear on the point of this, but I do have a sudden urge to jump in a catalyst and blow up a miner. Twitter! - @AzamiNevinyrall I'm half expecting a ban for this post. |
Phoenix Jones
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
16
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Posted - 2013.05.29 19:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade?
Yell at Microsoft for continuing to make 32 bit operating systems.
I would agree though to change eve to 64 bits. |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
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Posted - 2013.05.29 19:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:We're not getting a 64 bit client until they get 64 bit servers...
Ummm...the servers are 64bit. Have been for some time now. In fact I recall they have been since 2008. Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1458
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Posted - 2013.05.29 19:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade?
And what benefit do you see from changing Eve from 32 bit to 64 bit?
It's not like Eve is using anywhere near the 32 bit limits. Sub 1GB atm. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14396
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Posted - 2013.05.29 19:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
When it becomes possible (depending on third-party middleware) and meaningful (depending on OS spread) and/or useful (depending on benefits vs. costs) to do so.
I.e. probably not in a while. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1464
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Posted - 2013.05.29 19:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
The important question is what would Eve specifically have to gain from running a 64 bit client as opposed to the 32 bit one? What direct gains to the application could be realized by doing so? Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
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Posted - 2013.05.29 20:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tippia wrote:When it becomes possible (depending on third-party middleware) and meaningful (depending on OS spread) and/or useful (depending on benefits vs. costs) to do so.
I.e. probably not in a while.
It is possible...it is a minority of players that is holding advancement back. The developers themselves have said repeatedly. Personally I think it is silly the CCP's is letting the hands be tide be a group of players that refuse to upgrade their gaming rigs. I think it is the onus of the players to keep up with the requirements of the game and not the developers to maintain old tech just to appease these hold-outs.
We could have tessellation, DX11 and our systems utilize the memory we have - instead of being hamstrung using archaic 32 bit client. We've seen what this game could look like with tessellation. We've seen what it would look like if the developers could make use of DX11. It would run smoother and not melt our machines CPU's and GPU's because the old game code is so 10 years ago.
Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Barakach
Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
158
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Posted - 2013.05.29 20:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade? And what benefit do you see from changing Eve from 32 bit to 64 bit? It's not like Eve is using anywhere near the 32 bit limits. Sub 1GB atm.
1) Certain algorithms are much faster when using 64bit registers 2) 64bit mode has many more general purpose registers 3) 64bit mode has a few more SIMD registers 4) 64bit mode removes some legacy cruft and adds some extra niceties for the compiler |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14396
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Posted - 2013.05.29 20:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:It is possible. Is it? Could you please list the full set of middleware EVE is using and show that they have fully functional 64bit versions, since that's what's made it impossible so far.
Quote:it is a minority of players that is holding advancement back. The developers themselves have said repeatedly. [citation needed]
Quote:We could have tessellation, DX11 and our systems utilize the memory we have Tesselation and DX11 are not contingent on 64-bit, and there's no need for more memory.
Barakach wrote:1) Certain algorithms are much faster when using 64bit registers 2) 64bit mode has many more general purpose registers 3) 64bit mode has a few more SIMD registers 4) 64bit mode removes some legacy cruft and adds some extra niceties for the compiler GǪand EVE would benefit from that? Those are just generalities. What would be the benefit for EVE? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
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Posted - 2013.05.29 20:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
In case you haven't seen what EVE Online looks like with DX11 and tessellation(not to mention better in game physics) here is a link to the demo that CCP did in 2012 at Fanfest. EVE Online Demo 2012 Video Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14398
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Posted - 2013.05.29 20:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:In case you haven't seen what EVE Online looks like with DX11 and tessellation(not to mention better in game physics) here is a link to the demo that CCP did in 2012 at Fanfest. EVE Online Demo 2012 Video GǪand that has nothing to do with going 64-bit. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
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Posted - 2013.05.29 20:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:It is possible. Is it? Could you please list the full set of middleware EVE is using and show that they have fully functional 64bit versions, since that's what's made it impossible so far. Quote:it is a minority of players that is holding advancement back. The developers themselves have said repeatedly. [citation needed] Quote:We could have tessellation, DX11 and our systems utilize the memory we have Tesselation and DX11 are not contingent on 64-bit, and there's no need for more memory. Barakach wrote:1) Certain algorithms are much faster when using 64bit registers 2) 64bit mode has many more general purpose registers 3) 64bit mode has a few more SIMD registers 4) 64bit mode removes some legacy cruft and adds some extra niceties for the compiler GǪand EVE would benefit from that? Those are just generalities. What would be the benefit for EVE?
Tippia - you are one of the people that is probably still running Win 98(if I remember correctly you have said this in previous post that you are still running the game on this). I've seen you argue against CCP making the game better since forever. The game would run better - end of story. Old OS's like Win 98 and XP cannot take advantage of modern, up-to-date graphics cards and CPU's - argue about it all you want - that is fact. Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1465
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Posted - 2013.05.29 20:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Tippia - you are one of the people that is probably still running Win 98(if I remember correctly you have said this in previous post that you are still running the game on this). I've seen you argue against CCP making the game better since forever. The game would run better - end of story. Old OS's like Win 98 and XP cannot take advantage of modern, up-to-date graphics cards and CPU's - argue about it all you want - that is fact.
Attacking the person instead of their argument is usually a sign you've run out of ways to defend your side of the discussion. Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14398
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Posted - 2013.05.29 20:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Tippia - you are one of the people that is probably still running Win 98 No.
Quote:(if I remember correctly you have said this in previous post that you are still running the game on this). I've seen you argue against CCP making the game better since forever. Ah. Making things up rather than actually addressing the points. Good tactic.
Quote:The game would run better - end of story. GǪor it might not run at all because there would be missing components. And no, that's not the end of the story. Simply going 64 bit doesn't automatically make a program run better, and any potential gain that could be had needs to be weighed against the costs of gaining it.
I can only conclude that you are wilfully ignoring those costs, which, combined with your inability to list any reason to pay those costs that doesn't build on some kind of fallacy, means your entire argument has no basis.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
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Posted - 2013.05.29 20:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Tippia - you are one of the people that is probably still running Win 98(if I remember correctly you have said this in previous post that you are still running the game on this). I've seen you argue against CCP making the game better since forever. The game would run better - end of story. Old OS's like Win 98 and XP cannot take advantage of modern, up-to-date graphics cards and CPU's - argue about it all you want - that is fact.
Attacking the person instead of their argument is usually a sign you've run out of ways to defend your side of the discussion.
Nope...just stating a fact. Go read Tippia's post history. It speaks volumes on where Tippia stands when it comes to CCP making the game better. Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14398
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Nope...just stating a fact. You haven't stated a single fact in this entire thread.
So, let's go back to that basic question and see if you can do it at least once: what benefit do you see from changing EVE from 32 to 64 bit?
Quote:Go read Tippia's post history. It speaks volumes on where Tippia stands when it comes to CCP making the game better. Prove it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
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Posted - 2013.05.29 20:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Tippia - you are one of the people that is probably still running Win 98 No. Quote:(if I remember correctly you have said this in previous post that you are still running the game on this). I've seen you argue against CCP making the game better since forever. Ah. Making things up rather than actually addressing the points. Good tactic. Quote:The game would run better - end of story. GǪor it might not run at all because there would be missing components. And no, that's not the end of the story. Simply going 64 bit doesn't automatically make a program run better, and any potential gain that could be had needs to be weighed against the costs of gaining it. I can only conclude that you are wilfully ignoring those costs, which, combined with your inability to list any reason to pay those costs that doesn't build on some kind of fallacy, means your entire argument has no basis.
So you're going to continue to use that lame argument that there is no benefit and EVE would not run better with 64bit client?
Just being able to utilize more memory would benefit the game. You cannot use more than 2GB with a 32bit system. If EVE could make use of more memory it would definitely see a marked improvement in how it runs. Keep trying to deny it. Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
149
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Posted - 2013.05.29 20:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
When you move from 32 bit to 64 bit, yes, your integer math can deal with numbers twice as big. That's a win. There are a few more registers, which is good for compiler optimisation. But think about it: all of your pointers are twice as large, and the average program has plenty of those. Your memory usage goes UP because of it, and so does your cache thrashing.
It's not a win to go native 64 bit, unless you're paging from massive files (over 4Gb) or something. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14398
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Posted - 2013.05.29 20:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:So you're going to continue to use that lame argument that there is no benefit and EVE would not run better with 64bit client? I have to start before I can continue. What benefit do you see from changing EVE from 32 to 64 bit?
Quote:Just being able to utilize more memory would benefit the game. No, it wouldn't. The game uses less than 1GB RAM and doesn't need, nor would it use the added memory a 64-bit-licensed Windows machine opens up.
Quote:You cannot use more than 2GB with a 32bit system. Yes you can.
Quote:If EVE could make use of more memory it would definitely see a marked improvement in how it runs. EVE already can make use of more memory, but it doesn't. So what makes you believe that there would be any kind of improvement? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote: Just being able to utilize more memory would benefit the game. You cannot use more than 2GB with a 32bit system. If EVE could make use of more memory it would definitely see a marked improvement in how it runs. Keep trying to deny it.
Why does Eve need to use more than 2Gb? Its biggest assets by far are textures, and those are managed by the graphics driver. The graphics driver has a paging model, allowing it to do what it wants GPU-side. They don't have to be resident CPU side at all.
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Khira Kitamatsu
530
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Posted - 2013.05.29 20:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:When you move from 32 bit to 64 bit, yes, your integer math can deal with numbers twice as big. That's a win. There are a few more registers, which is good for compiler optimisation. But think about it: all of your pointers are twice as large, and the average program has plenty of those. Your memory usage goes UP because of it, and so does your cache thrashing.
It's not a win to go native 64 bit, unless you're paging from massive files (over 4Gb) or something.
Yes, but they are optimized for 64bit and so are modern CPU's with multiple cores. CCP Explorer has all ready said that EVE would run so much better if they could make us of multi-core and multi-thread programming that a 64bit client would allow for, and the greater memory access - and 32bit doesn't.
This is why we can't have good things in EVE. :( Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4194
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Posted - 2013.05.29 20:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
All that being said (64 bit argument aside) I personally would like to see DX11 and Tessellation utilized in EvE... which will require the user base to upgrade from XP or older. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14398
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:CCP Explorer has all ready said that EVE would run so much better if they could make us of multi-core and multi-thread programming that a 64bit client would allow for, and the greater memory access - and 32bit doesn't. Again, [citation needed] and no, none of those require a 64-bit client. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
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Posted - 2013.05.29 21:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:CCP Explorer has all ready said that EVE would run so much better if they could make us of multi-core and multi-thread programming that a 64bit client would allow for, and the greater memory access - and 32bit doesn't. Again, [citation needed] and no, none of those require a 64-bit client.
Here is your citation.
#67 Posted: 2012.06.26 20:26 | Report
PinkKnife wrote: Would it make a large difference? Is it worth doing? Hard to implement?
CCP Explorer wrote: That has nothing to do with 32 bit vs. 64 bit but has everything to do with single core vs. multi core. And also 1 GB of RAM vs. 8 GB, but 8 GB allows the operating system to cache much more aggressively. Also, I daresay that there are very different graphics cards in these two machines?
Let's start with the number of cores: Even just a dual core makes a tremendous difference. That way EVE can be running on one core but the operating system can do network and hard disk IO on the other, in addition to running other programs (such as your browser, media player, antivirus, ...). You don't get a lot in addition with 8 cores unless you are running a lot of programs.
More RAM: More RAM is better since that allows the operating system to cache more of the file system. As soon as you have started one client then starting the second client will be a lot faster since the file IO actually doesn't hit the disk.
SSD: This is the best thing you can do for your computer. I have a three-year old laptop that I recently upgraded by replacing the spindle disk with an SSD (and upgraded from 2 GB to 8 GB RAM). It's a "new" machine.
Graphics card: This is the next-best thing you can do for your computer (if you play games). But do note that you want to buy from the high-end of a line of cards; if you need to buy something less expensive then you might be better off buying the high-end card from from the next line below what you really wanted.
Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14398
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 21:13:00 -
[27] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Here is your citation. GǪand no link. Goodie. AnywayGǪCCP Explorer wrote:That has nothing to do with 32 bit vs. 64 bit GǪthere you go. As expected. He also doesn't make any of the other claims you proposed. Also as expected. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
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Posted - 2013.05.29 21:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Here is your citation. GǪand no link. Goodie. AnywayGǪ CCP Explorer wrote:That has nothing to do with 32 bit vs. 64 bit GǪthere you go. As expected. He also doesn't make any of the other claims you proposed. Also as expected.
No need to provide a link...those are his words. His saying that 32bit vs 64bit was regarding something else in the conversation that I took his quote from..."When people figure out that a 64 bit client will load a grid or change session faster than the people waiting for them in the bubble camp, you won't need an x32 client any more." This is what he was commenting on.
Oh and Windows 98 and XP cannot access more than 3.5 GB - no matter what you do - can't be done.
And yes Tippia, he clearly states that more EVE would run better with more memory and multi-cores. Is your reading comprehension that bad? Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14398
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 21:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:No need to provide a link... GǪaside from context, verification, further explanations. You know, the things that give a greater meaning to his saying the exact opposite of what you're claiming.
Quote:His saying that 32bit vs 64bit was regarding something else in the conversation that I took his quote from. So it doesn't actually prove your claims in any way then. So that's not the citation asked for. Goodie. Can you provide one that does?
Quote:"When people figure out that a 64 bit client will load a grid or change session faster than the people waiting for them in the bubble camp, you won't need an x32 client any more." This is what he was commenting on. GǪand answered that GÇ£That has nothing to do with 32 bit vs. 64 bitGÇ¥. So there you go GÇö still not making any of the claims you proposed.
Quote:Oh and Windows 98 and XP cannot access more than 3.5 GB - no matter what you do - can't be done. Those are licensing restrictions, not something that depends on 32 vs 64 bit.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2362
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Posted - 2013.05.29 21:39:00 -
[30] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Tippia wrote:When it becomes possible (depending on third-party middleware) and meaningful (depending on OS spread) and/or useful (depending on benefits vs. costs) to do so.
I.e. probably not in a while. It is possible...it is a minority of players that is holding advancement back. The developers themselves have said repeatedly. Personally I think it is silly the CCP's is letting the hands be tide be a group of players that refuse to upgrade their gaming rigs. I think it is the onus of the players to keep up with the requirements of the game and not the developers to maintain old tech just to appease these hold-outs. We could have tessellation, DX11 and our systems utilize the memory we have - instead of being hamstrung using archaic 32 bit client. We've seen what this game could look like with tessellation. We've seen what it would look like if the developers could make use of DX11. It would run smoother and not melt our machines CPU's and GPU's because the old game code is so 10 years ago.
So tessellation is not free, there will be a big art effort as well as testing to enable tessellation, it isn't a "set a bit and everything is pretty" thing. Additionally as mentioned in this thread in other places 64 bit isn't going to gain any benefits till the client is rewritten to take advantage of the 64 bit instruction set and memory space. CCP would almost certainly have to maintain and support both 32 bit and 64 bit for a while which takes up resources.
So the question is do we want CCP doing that or working on stuff like modular POSs?
I'd say tessellation and 64 bit can wait while CCP focuses on stuff we will enjoy more.
Issler |
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Khira Kitamatsu
530
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Posted - 2013.05.29 21:42:00 -
[31] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:No need to provide a link... GǪaside from context, verification, further explanations. You know, the things that give a greater meaning to his saying the exact opposite of what you're claiming. Those are his words - take it or leave it. Quote:His saying that 32bit vs 64bit was regarding something else in the conversation that I took his quote from. So it doesn't actually prove your claims in any way then. So that's not the citation asked for. Goodie. Can you provide one that does? So CCP Explorers own words are not good enough. Sucks to be you.Quote:"When people figure out that a 64 bit client will load a grid or change session faster than the people waiting for them in the bubble camp, you won't need an x32 client any more." This is what he was commenting on. GǪand answered that GÇ£That has nothing to do with 32 bit vs. 64 bitGÇ¥. So there you go GÇö still not making any of the claims you proposed. Like I said, your reading comprehension is very inadequate.Quote:Oh and Windows 98 and XP cannot access more than 3.5 GB - no matter what you do - can't be done. Those are licensing restrictions, not something that depends on 32 vs 64 bit. Statement still holds true. You like to use that argument despite that fact that it is false. Keep trying though. Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
GreenSeed
346
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Posted - 2013.05.29 21:49:00 -
[32] - Quote
honestly a lot of people in this thread have no damn clue how PCs work.
" i have 16gb, i want eve to use all 16 gb, because.... because..... hurrrrrrrrrrrr"
srsly, any change on the capabilities of the engine needs to come with a reason.... the engine can display thousands of ships in space already, something necessary due to the scale of SOV warfare these days... yet the servers and the netcode cant handle it.
how does changing the game to 64 bits in any way change that?
why would you spend the limited resources we have on it, when those limited resources are better spent on updating the netcode, server infrastructure or some other change in the game, like updating the internal workings of poses and capitals, something which CCP keeps quoting as the reason the cant really do a POS iteration.
and the OP is either a troll or a 14 year old Wow refugee. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14399
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 21:52:00 -
[33] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Those are his words - take it or leave it. Oh, I'll take them alright, since they show that you were talking out of your lower back and not just making up things I've said, but have moved on to inventing things that the devs have supposedly said (when in reality, they said quite the opposite).
Quote:So CCP Explorers own words are not good enough. They're good enough. They just don't support the claim you're making and since you said that he had said something, I would expect a citation that actually said what you claimed. Instead, you provided one that did the exact opposite.
Quote:Like I said, your reading comprehension is very inadequate. It's working just fine. In the context of what you've quoted, he only says one thing: that 32 vs 64 bit doesn't matter. You're trying to present that as it saying that the client would be able to do all kinds of fancy things if it were 64 bit. That does not follow from his statement.
Quote:Statement still holds true. Sure, it's just not particularly relevant as Explorer's quote shows. And no, it's not false. There are plenty of 32-bit Windows SKUs that can access more than 3.5GB RAM GÇö it's all a matter of which version and license you choose. Hell, if you pick the wrong one, you get less than that as your maximum. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Solhild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1042
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 21:55:00 -
[34] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:All that being said (64 bit argument aside) I personally would like to see DX11 and Tessellation utilized in EvE... which will require the user base to upgrade from XP or older.
This. |
BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
230
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Posted - 2013.05.29 21:59:00 -
[35] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Tippia - you are one of the people that is probably still running Win 98(if I remember correctly you have said this in previous post that you are still running the game on this). I've seen you argue against CCP making the game better since forever. The game would run better - end of story. Old OS's like Win 98 and XP cannot take advantage of modern, up-to-date graphics cards and CPU's - argue about it all you want - that is fact.
All this and you still havent answered her question - Other than what you have read on Gizomodo about 64bit making "everything better," HOW will it specifically make EVE any better?
Since you use a 64bit machine, please elaborate... Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 22:05:00 -
[36] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Tippia - you are one of the people that is probably still running Win 98(if I remember correctly you have said this in previous post that you are still running the game on this). I've seen you argue against CCP making the game better since forever. The game would run better - end of story. Old OS's like Win 98 and XP cannot take advantage of modern, up-to-date graphics cards and CPU's - argue about it all you want - that is fact. All this and you still havent answered her question - Other than what you have read on Gizomodo about 64bit making "everything better," HOW will it specifically make EVE any better? Since you use a 64bit machine, please elaborate...
I have answered her. You just didn't want to accept my answer - just like her. Oh wait...maybe this is one of her alts. LOL!
Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14399
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 22:09:00 -
[37] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:I have answered her. You just didn't want to accept my answer - just like her. Yes, you answered me (it's GÇ£himGÇ¥, btw). That answer was a quote from a dev that said it doesn't make any real difference.
The problem is that we expected your answer to be something other than GÇ£nothingGÇ¥.
Of course, if you do think it'll provide some kind of benefit, we can dig that question out again since in that case, you haven't answered itGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Velarra
226
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 22:30:00 -
[38] - Quote
A 64bit client would be nice for use with Commodore Amiga's running a 64bit 603 CPU card in conjunction with VM software for a wintel 64bit Eve client. |
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
252
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 00:51:00 -
[39] - Quote
In the spirit of eve, the weak shall fall behind! Go forth and release a 64-bit client I say! But really, WinXP was great, but it's 11 years old. Quit clinging to that old system and get Windows 7 or 8. Windows 8 isn't even bad, its only real problem for a normal user, is the metro ui which can be disabled with 3rd party software. |
Tiven loves Tansien
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
814
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 01:03:00 -
[40] - Quote
How many other mmorp games have working x64 clients?
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
The game would run better - end of story. Old OS's like Win 98 and XP cannot take advantage of modern, up-to-date graphics cards and CPU's - argue about it all you want - that is fact.
You are a baboon. THAT is a fact. |
|
Doc Severide
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 01:21:00 -
[41] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Tippia - you are one of the people that is probably still running Win 98(if I remember correctly you have said this in previous post that you are still running the game on this). I've seen you argue against CCP making the game better since forever. The game would run better - end of story. Old OS's like Win 98 and XP cannot take advantage of modern, up-to-date graphics cards and CPU's - argue about it all you want - that is fact. I really can't afford to upgrade from Windows for Workgroups 3.11...
|
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
194
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 01:35:00 -
[42] - Quote
Oh, this is fun, Tippia spearing some newbie forum warrier. |
Stegas Tyrano
GLU CANU Open Space Consultancy
478
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 01:44:00 -
[43] - Quote
Do another boot.ini that targets old computers Herping your derp since 19Potato --á[Proposal] - Ingame Visual Adverts |
Wyrm Drake
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 02:19:00 -
[44] - Quote
Wow. Ok
First off. 32 or 64bit has nothing to do with the number of cores you can use. If a program is written to use multi-threading, then it can regardless if it's 32 or 64. Otherwise, it uses one core and Windows controls it's usage of what core.
My Working set of memory for Eve now is 1.3GB and it has peaked at 1.7GBs, which means it has maxed out it's VAS usage (Windows assigns 2GB of isolated memory to a program when it starts called the VAS, you're usually using all of it at about 1.7GBs cause of overhead). So, to some extent, Eve could make use of more memory. But, if it would be worth it is another question. If a lot of the data Eve will be holding in memory now takes 64bits to represent, even if that data can be represented with 32bits, that data still uses 64bits which means a lot of wasted space eating up memory. With many programs, that can be a drawback to the system overall. Now, CCP could go over the code to reduce the wasted space but, most of the time, there is not a lot of benefit for a game to do this.. yet
Most of the 64bit data in Eve is graphic data which is handled by the GPU that already runs at more than 64bits.
DX11 and tessellation have nothing to do with 32 or 64bit. It only has to do with what versions of Windows CCP decides to support and then writing the code to make use of them
This is a very simplified explanation, but should be sufficient
|
Vexidious
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 02:45:00 -
[45] - Quote
Wyrm Drake wrote:Wow. Ok
First off. 32 or 64bit has nothing to do with the number of cores you can use. If a program is written to use multi-threading, then it can regardless if it's 32 or 64. Otherwise, it uses one core and Windows controls it's usage of what core.
My Working set of memory for Eve now is 1.3GB and it has peaked at 1.7GBs, which means it has maxed out it's VAS usage (Windows assigns 2GB of isolated memory to a program when it starts called the VAS, you're usually using all of it at about 1.7GBs cause of overhead). So, to some extent, Eve could make use of more memory. But, if it would be worth it is another question. If a lot of the data Eve will be holding in memory now takes 64bits to represent, even if that data can be represented with 32bits, that data still uses 64bits which means a lot of wasted space eating up memory. With many programs, that can be a drawback to the system overall. Now, CCP could go over the code to reduce the wasted space but, most of the time, there is not a lot of benefit for a game to do this.. yet
Most of the 64bit data in Eve is graphic data which is handled by the GPU that already runs at more than 64bits.
DX11 and tessellation have nothing to do with 32 or 64bit. It only has to do with what versions of Windows CCP decides to support and then writing the code to make use of them
This is a very simplified explanation, but should be sufficient
Pretty much this. Just recompiling the existing code as 64 bit will have exactly zero benefit, and could conceivably make things worse. Unless CCP intends to optimize the code for 64 bit there is absolutely no point. And even if they were to go to that trouble, it is highly questionable what there is to gain by doing so. Yes, the client could access more RAM, but it doesn't currently have any memory issues. Yes, it may be able to execute slightly faster, but probably not enough for anyone to notice the difference.
What would happen, though, is that people running 32 bit operating systems (a not insignificant number of people, I might add) would need to make some system upgrades in order to play the game. Some will; some will not. CCP will undoubtedly lose some customers in the process. On balance, it doesn't seem worth the trouble. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1395
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 02:56:00 -
[46] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote: Here is your citation.
#67 Posted: 2012.06.26 20:26 | Report
PinkKnife wrote: Would it make a large difference? Is it worth doing? Hard to implement?
CCP Explorer wrote: That has nothing to do with 32 bit vs. 64 bit but has everything to do with single core vs. multi core.
Now I will admit that I generally find Tippia grating and hard to debate with. But definitely in this case she has a point, as the quote you cite literally shows the opposite of what you are claming (made it bold for you even).
Why would you pull out a quote that literally says that, when you are trying to claim the opposite? |
Cyrina Manto
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 02:57:00 -
[47] - Quote
Wyrm Drake hit the nail on the head.
If you recompile a 32bit program as 64 bit it gets the following...
1. Increased memory usage as the base data structure is larger. 1.7gb of memory usage becomes 2.4-2.5 for the exact same data in memory.
2. Access to more memory.
The only reason to have a 64bit client would be if CCP released the textures used for the EvE CGI sequences, because the memory needed for texture cache would increase exponentially.
As to multicore and EvE...
EvE is not cpu bound that I can see. I get triple digit framerates on an 8 core workstation with a cpu speed of only 2ghz. |
Sobach
Fourth Circle
181
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 03:16:00 -
[48] - Quote
So basically this thread is about how the OP have no idea what he is talking about? gotcha. |
Zak Breen
Aliastra Gallente Federation
52
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 03:37:00 -
[49] - Quote
Solution:
EVE needs to be rewritten entirely in assembly. OPTIMIZATION! Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of not knowing. http://www.di.fm/spacemusic |
Aragoni
Aliastra Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 07:28:00 -
[50] - Quote
I don't want to be rude or anything but how many of you actually know what you're talking about?
Maybe we can get a CCP-response on if (and if, how so) EVE actually would benefit from going to x64? No need to answer the question about when (once again: If) it arrives. |
|
dark heartt
I Own Four Sheep Nyratic
323
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 07:33:00 -
[51] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Old OS's like Win 98 and XP cannot take advantage of modern, up-to-date graphics cards and CPU's - argue about it all you want - that is fact.
Couldn't care less about 98, but XP has a 64 bit version, and it runs perfectly well with modern tech thank you very much. Personally I use 7 now, but with Eve the way it runs there really isn't a major *need* to go to 64 bit.
Bienator II: "You can identify eve players by looking at their cars. Since they don't drive what they can't afford to lose." I play in highsec. |
Herr Esiq
Dirt Nap Squad
50
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 07:44:00 -
[52] - Quote
Correct me if im wrong, but since my computer has 16gb of memory its more of a frustration then a benefit that EVE 'only' uses 1gb while it could have used 14 more gb to preload every texture availeble into memory and save a bit on loading.
Having your memory unused isnt really a benefit. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1463
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 07:56:00 -
[53] - Quote
Herr Esiq wrote:Correct me if im wrong, but since my computer has 16gb of memory its more of a frustration then a benefit that EVE 'only' uses 1gb while it could have used 14 more gb to preload every texture availeble into memory and save a bit on loading.
Having your memory unused isnt really a benefit.
Thing is, you see that 16GB? It'll be being used as disk cache. So the textures will be in memory, after the first use.
Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Herr Esiq
Dirt Nap Squad
50
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 08:01:00 -
[54] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Thing is, you see that 16GB? It'll be being used as disk cache. So the textures will be in memory, after the first use.
In that case, i said nothing.. |
Throktar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 08:24:00 -
[55] - Quote
What I heard in the rumor mill (just made up in my head) is that CCP is going to release a graphics update with direct x 16, so we just need to be patient :) |
RaTTuS
BIG Insidious Empire
260
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 08:25:00 -
[56] - Quote
64Bit native makes things get bigger code wise dx11 does not need 64bit there are 32bit win7 options and they are very useful for some systems 32bti is fine for most things 64bit systems can have lots of memory so they can run more copies of eve better - http://eveboard.com/ub/419190933-134.png
|
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ISD Gallifreyan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
141
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 08:34:00 -
[57] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade? I'm not sure it is a minority of players who use 32bit OS' not everyone can afford to upgrade their Gaming hardware yearly like those of us in the 1st world with good jobs (or parents with good jobs.) Eve is played globally. Also some people need to run 32bit systems for other programs that are not 64bit compatible.
I am not saying it should not be worked on, but I do not believe it should be rushed. (also I doubt anyone is running Win98 to play Eve, but I may be mistaken) ISD Gallifreyan Leutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
152
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 08:51:00 -
[58] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Yes, but they are optimized for 64bit and so are modern CPU's with multiple cores. CCP Explorer has all ready said that EVE would run so much better if they could make us of multi-core and multi-thread programming that a 64bit client would allow for, and the greater memory access - and 32bit doesn't.
This is why we can't have good things in EVE. :(
"optimised for 64 bit", no, they're 64 bit processors that run 32 bit processes just as well. Anyway CCP Explorer can already do all of that, except make his process gigantic. I don't see what his point is. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
152
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 08:53:00 -
[59] - Quote
Zak Breen wrote:Solution: EVE needs to be rewritten entirely in assembly. OPTIMIZATION!
It is. The compiler writes the assembler, and optimises it in 99.999% of cases far more efficiently than any Human could. Exception is SIMD, where compilers still suck at optimising vector operations. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
152
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 08:56:00 -
[60] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote: Here is your citation.
#67 Posted: 2012.06.26 20:26 | Report
PinkKnife wrote: Would it make a large difference? Is it worth doing? Hard to implement?
CCP Explorer wrote: That has nothing to do with 32 bit vs. 64 bit but has everything to do with single core vs. multi core. And also 1 GB of RAM vs. 8 GB, but 8 GB allows the operating system to cache much more aggressively. Also, I daresay that there are very different graphics cards in these two machines?
Incorrect context. He's saying it makes NO DIFFERENCE in this quote. Then he's saying client optimisation is more to do with multi-threading/multi-core. And even that is hard to do so it scales nicely. You have to show a lot of respect to the cache (like making sure your objects aren't all sat on the same cache line) in order to win with multiple threads. Coding for multi-core is hard.
|
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Astrid Stjerna
Underking Family
804
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 09:22:00 -
[61] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote: Just being able to utilize more memory would benefit the game. You cannot use more than 2GB with a 32bit system. If EVE could make use of more memory it would definitely see a marked improvement in how it runs. Keep trying to deny it.
I just want to step in and point something out:
No software uses more than two gigs of RAM unless it's specifically designed and programmed that way. High-end CAD programs, for example, are designed from the outset to use as much memory as they can access.
Going to 64-bit architecture wouldn't allow EvE to use more than two gigs (because it's not programmed that way). It would just permit the computer to address more than four gigs of RAM. I can't get rid of my darn signature!-á Oh, wait.... |
Shian Yang
262
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 09:40:00 -
[62] - Quote
Greetings capsuleer,
I love watching a capsuleer who has not trained Electronics delve into the field. I can recommend a few Caldari pilots that would happily sell you the skillbook. I believe even capsuleer Tippia may have a dusty one available.
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Just being able to utilize more memory would benefit the game. You cannot use more than 2GB with a 32bit system. If EVE could make use of more memory it would definitely see a marked improvement in how it runs. Keep trying to deny it.
32 bits determines your addressable memory space. It has nothing to do with the other words you are throwing at the discussion in a vain attempt to look intelligent. And work it out for yourself ...
0 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1,024 ... 4,294,967,295. Memory is unsigned; not signed.
That space is addressable. Anything above that is not. Keep in mind that hardware devices will also use some of that addressable space; depending on a number of factors so it may be less.
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Yes, but they are optimized for 64bit and so are modern CPU's with multiple cores. CCP Explorer has all ready said that EVE would run so much better if they could make us of multi-core and multi-thread programming that a 64bit client would allow for, and the greater memory access - and 32bit doesn't.
At the moment I have ExeFile.exe, a process launched by the EVE client utilising 59 threads. There will be context switching and I'm not about to delve in to try and decipher which of my cores is actively running this; but the beauty of a multi-threaded operating system is that it will natively utilise those benefits for you if you have multiple threads.
There will be a test later. Don't fail it again.
Regards,
Capsuleer Yang
|
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts Hegemonous Pandorum
176
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 09:57:00 -
[63] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade?
It isn't a minority. It is a majority. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5279
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 10:08:00 -
[64] - Quote
It's not just operating systems that prevent requiring DX11. Hardware is also a limitation, and for some (e.g. those with laptops) it's not so easy to upgrade the hardware. My laptop had the best card available when I bought it almost four years ago and it isn't DX11 capable.
You can have your nice things like tessellation and DX11 so long as they're made optional. There's no reason to shut out people who can't run DX11 especially considering so very few games actually do that. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Frank Millar
197
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 10:35:00 -
[65] - Quote
Because of this thread I will be reverting to 8-bit.
Things were so much simpler in those days.
|
Othran
Route One
510
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 12:16:00 -
[66] - Quote
Frank Millar wrote:Because of this thread I will be reverting to 8-bit. Things were so much simpler in those days.
Not 8-bit but I've actually worked on octal (base 8) computers - some ancient things that went into RN frigates and one of the nuclear subs.
We could revert to that, makes as much sense as anything else the OP has said in this thread |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1468
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 12:23:00 -
[67] - Quote
Super spikinator wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade? It isn't a minority. It is a majority.
Thankfully, it looks like only around 10-15% of Eve players are still running on XP. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2954304#post2954304 Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Doc Severide
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 12:40:00 -
[68] - Quote
ISD Gallifreyan wrote:Also some people need to run 32bit systems for other programs that are not 64bit compatible. Those people need to get their priorities right.
But I'd be interested in how many people have multiple PC's some for gaming, some for working, etc.
I myself have 13 PC's, 7 of which are for gaming and nothing else... |
Noriko Mai
835
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 12:48:00 -
[69] - Quote
Doc Severide wrote:I myself have 13 PC's, 7 of which are for gaming and nothing else... WTF???? I don't even have a smartphone |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1473
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 13:07:00 -
[70] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:De'Veldrin wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Tippia - you are one of the people that is probably still running Win 98(if I remember correctly you have said this in previous post that you are still running the game on this). I've seen you argue against CCP making the game better since forever. The game would run better - end of story. Old OS's like Win 98 and XP cannot take advantage of modern, up-to-date graphics cards and CPU's - argue about it all you want - that is fact.
Attacking the person instead of their argument is usually a sign you've run out of ways to defend your side of the discussion. Nope...just stating a fact. Go read Tippia's post history. It speaks volumes on where Tippia stands when it comes to CCP making the game better.
I'm familiar with Tippia's posting history, having been playing the game going on five years now. And you're quite correct when you say that it speaks volumes - he fully supports making changes to better the game, when the benefits of those changes outweigh the costs.
So far you have yet to demonstrate that changing to 64 bit will have a postive outcome that outweighs the costs of implementing it, and you managed to go straight for the ad hominem before we even finished page one of this thread. I understand you want Eve to get a 64-bit client, for whatever reasons you may have. What you have failed to demonstrate is why Eve needs a 64-bit client in an reasonable sense. Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
|
Cannibal Kane
My Little Ponies of the Apocalypse
1819
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 13:11:00 -
[71] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:De'Veldrin wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Tippia - you are one of the people that is probably still running Win 98(if I remember correctly you have said this in previous post that you are still running the game on this). I've seen you argue against CCP making the game better since forever. The game would run better - end of story. Old OS's like Win 98 and XP cannot take advantage of modern, up-to-date graphics cards and CPU's - argue about it all you want - that is fact.
Attacking the person instead of their argument is usually a sign you've run out of ways to defend your side of the discussion. Nope...just stating a fact. Go read Tippia's post history. It speaks volumes on where Tippia stands when it comes to CCP making the game better. I'm familiar with Tippia's posting history, having been playing the game going on five years now. And you're quite correct when you say that it speaks volumes - he fully supports making changes to better the game, when the benefits of those changes outweigh the costs. So far you have yet to demonstrate that changing to 64 bit will have a postive outcome that outweighs the costs of implementing it, and you managed to go straight for the ad hominem before we even finished page one of this thread. I understand you want Eve to get a 64-bit client, for whatever reasons you may have. What you have failed to demonstrate is why Eve needs a 64-bit client in an reasonable sense.
Considering you don't need a 64bit client for the things he wants. "I saw him fight by the monument in Jita. -áHe flowed in his Machariel like a Shinto spirit, 800MM shells sprouting in his passing. -áHis hair flowed in the corona of his target's warp core breach. -áIt was truly majestic. -áAnd while everyone stared in awe I stole the loot and ran off.-áBecause I am like that." --áNEONOVUS |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4197
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 13:41:00 -
[72] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's not just operating systems that prevent requiring DX11. Hardware is also a limitation, and for some (e.g. those with laptops) it's not so easy to upgrade the hardware. My laptop had the best card available when I bought it almost four years ago and it isn't DX11 capable.
You can have your nice things like tessellation and DX11 so long as they're made optional. There's no reason to shut out people who can't run DX11 especially considering so very few games actually do that (literally, there's only one game currently on market that requires DX11, everything else requires at most DX10.1). I have a great deal of sincere sympathy for those in your position James, but you need to consider something that is a general rule of thumb for anyone that's worked in the computer field.
The fully useful lifespan of a computer used for gaming is 3 years. The fully useful lifespan of a computer not used for gaming is 5 years.
Obviously there are exceptions, but its a pretty good guideline for planning computer purchases and/or upgrades. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Wyrm Drake
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 14:25:00 -
[73] - Quote
Aragoni wrote:I don't want to be rude or anything but how many of you actually know what you're talking about?
Maybe we can get a CCP-response on if (and if, how so) EVE actually would benefit from going to x64? No need to answer the question about when (once again: If) it arrives.
Uhh, me.
System Administrator Network Administrator Database Administrator Programmer (in over a dozen languages) Systems Analyst
For over 30 years.
I can't believe this is still a conversation |
BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
231
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 14:30:00 -
[74] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:I have answered her. You just didn't want to accept my answer - just like her. Oh wait...maybe this is one of her alts. LOL!
You just parroted what you heard someone else say out of context. You still have no clue as to why. Ill take your denial of how computers work in hand with your assumption of alt connections. Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
KardelSharpeye
Aliastra Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 14:37:00 -
[75] - Quote
OP you should probably go take a course on how computers work, you're just spewing garbage. |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
113
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 14:49:00 -
[76] - Quote
Op has a point. There seems to be a lot of people posting here that have no idea about computers.
Eve would be better if it was for 64 bit computers. If you compare a 32 bit computer with a 64 bit computer, the 64 bit one has more bits. Because you have more bits, you can tell those bits to do extra things. You can do twice as many things at once with a 64 bit computer than you can with a 32 bit one, because 64 is twice as much as 32.
This is basic logic, people. |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1475
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 14:54:00 -
[77] - Quote
Delen Ormand wrote:Op has a point. There seems to be a lot of people posting here that have no idea about computers.
Eve would be better if it was for 64 bit computers. If you compare a 32 bit computer with a 64 bit computer, the 64 bit one has more bits. Because you have more bits, you can tell those bits to do extra things. You can do twice as many things at once with a 64 bit computer than you can with a 32 bit one, because 64 is twice as much as 32.
This is basic logic, people.
notsureifserious.jpg Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
Plyn
STEEL CITY. Tribal Band
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 15:36:00 -
[78] - Quote
Posting in a thread where people clearly do not understand the concepts behind memory addressing.
Devs have proven cautious about client changes that force hardware updates, and for a game with such a long lifespan this is certainly the best course of action. You'll get what you want, OP, eventually. If you want it now, though, your best hope is to ask for an x64 client in addition to the x86 one, which will probably happen before the game goes exclusively x64 anyways. Hossenfeffer. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
2052
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 16:32:00 -
[79] - Quote
OP is taking this commercial a little too seriously...
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Khira Kitamatsu
534
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 16:50:00 -
[80] - Quote
Let me put it this way, other MMO's, ones older than EVE Online offer 64bit versions of the game. That means people that cannot run 64bit can still run 32bit, but those with the ability to run the 64bit can. Look at WoW as an example. Back when the first introduced 64bit I and many millions of other players saw a huge jump in game performance by moving to 64bit client. That is all I am asking for here. Is the ability to fully utilize what my machine is capable of doing. For anyone to say that we would not see improvements in this game is just being silly - especially if CCP wrote the code to optimize the use of a 64bit system.
Then they could release a DX11, tessellation and better physics to those of us that can make use of it. All I wish to see is EVE grow into a more robust and enriching game experience and environment. As it is now CCP is tied to the fact that some people refuse to upgrade their gaming rigs and or OS's. How is that fair to the hundreds of thousands that have decent up-to-date gaming rigs?
Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
|
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2363
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 16:57:00 -
[81] - Quote
Delen Ormand wrote:Op has a point. There seems to be a lot of people posting here that have no idea about computers.
Eve would be better if it was for 64 bit computers. If you compare a 32 bit computer with a 64 bit computer, the 64 bit one has more bits. Because you have more bits, you can tell those bits to do extra things. You can do twice as many things at once with a 64 bit computer than you can with a 32 bit one, because 64 is twice as much as 32.
This is basic logic, people.
I say we wait for 128 bits!!!!!
Issler |
Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
310
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 17:03:00 -
[82] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade? And what benefit do you see from changing Eve from 32 bit to 64 bit? It's not like Eve is using anywhere near the 32 bit limits. Sub 1GB atm.
you don't play eve do you? most if not ALL fleet battles will cap EVE at the 2GB limit and often crash it due to memory overflows. |
Wyrm Drake
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 17:20:00 -
[83] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Let me put it this way, other MMO's, ones older than EVE Online offer 64bit versions of the game. That means people that cannot run 64bit can still run 32bit, but those with the ability to run the 64bit can. Look at WoW as an example. Back when the first introduced 64bit I and many millions of other players saw a huge jump in game performance by moving to 64bit client. That is all I am asking for here. Is the ability to fully utilize what my machine is capable of doing. For anyone to say that we would not see improvements in this game is just being silly - especially if CCP wrote the code to optimize the use of a 64bit system.
Then they could release a DX11, tessellation and better physics to those of us that can make use of it. All I wish to see is EVE grow into a more robust and enriching game experience and environment. As it is now CCP is tied to the fact that some people refuse to upgrade their gaming rigs and or OS's. How is that fair to the hundreds of thousands that have decent up-to-date gaming rigs?
I've already answered your question and you still don't know what the **** you are talking about.
DX11 and tessellation have NOTHING to do with the number of bits the program runs in. You are wanting CCP to maintain 2 more codebases than what they do now. For a larger corporation, like Blizzard, that makes many games and shares libraries amongst those games, there can be a little benefit to doing it, but for CCP to do it now means you are going to lose in something else (fewer features at expansion time, slower patches, etc). You can say, all you want, how you and 'many millions of other players saw a huge jump in game performance by moving to 64bit client' in WoW, but I was there, the jump was barely noticeable.
Based on your comments, which shows how little you know about what you're talking about, you would probably get a much better improvement in your system speed if you cleaned up your system, defragged, got rid of the viruses/malware you very likely have.
I know your type SOOO well. Those that think they know more about computers than they really do. |
Khira Kitamatsu
537
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 17:45:00 -
[84] - Quote
Wyrm Drake wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Let me put it this way, other MMO's, ones older than EVE Online offer 64bit versions of the game. That means people that cannot run 64bit can still run 32bit, but those with the ability to run the 64bit can. Look at WoW as an example. Back when the first introduced 64bit I and many millions of other players saw a huge jump in game performance by moving to 64bit client. That is all I am asking for here. Is the ability to fully utilize what my machine is capable of doing. For anyone to say that we would not see improvements in this game is just being silly - especially if CCP wrote the code to optimize the use of a 64bit system.
Then they could release a DX11, tessellation and better physics to those of us that can make use of it. All I wish to see is EVE grow into a more robust and enriching game experience and environment. As it is now CCP is tied to the fact that some people refuse to upgrade their gaming rigs and or OS's. How is that fair to the hundreds of thousands that have decent up-to-date gaming rigs?
I've already answered your question and you still don't know what the **** you are talking about. DX11 and tessellation have NOTHING to do with the number of bits the program runs in. You are wanting CCP to maintain 2 more codebases than what they do now. For a larger corporation, like Blizzard, that makes many games and shares libraries amongst those games, there can be a little benefit to doing it, but for CCP to do it now means you are going to lose in something else (fewer features at expansion time, slower patches, etc). You can say, all you want, how you and 'many millions of other players saw a huge jump in game performance by moving to 64bit client' in WoW, but I was there, the jump was barely noticeable. Based on your comments, which shows how little you know about what you're talking about, you would probably get a much better improvement in your system speed if you cleaned up your system, defragged, got rid of the viruses/malware you very likely have.Quote:I know your type SOOO well. Those that think they know more about computers than they really do.
Right, my comp is a POS and in shambles and can barely run - dude - you are the one now that is looking like a tool. BTW - my system can easily run 4 instances of EVE with not so much as a hiccup. That is on one comp. My comp runs very smoothly and very fast, and isn't loaded with malware, my comp defrags itself once a week. Plus everything I said would help this game and yes 64bit client for WOW did show a great improvement - especially when people could run ultra settings/full shadows and see 120fps - up from high settings(no shadows) and 30fps. So stop trying to make it seem like it didn't improve game performance - it did - and greatly. Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Haulie Berry
810
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 17:48:00 -
[85] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:The important question is what would Eve specifically have to gain from running a 64 bit client as opposed to the 32 bit one? What direct gains to the application could be realized by doing so?
Well... there would be more bits.
32 more bits, in fact.
You know how in Eve, bigger ships are always better?
It's like that with bits, too. |
Gillia Winddancer
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
367
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 17:49:00 -
[86] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade? And what benefit do you see from changing Eve from 32 bit to 64 bit? It's not like Eve is using anywhere near the 32 bit limits. Sub 1GB atm. you don't play eve do you? most if not ALL fleet battles will cap EVE at the 2GB limit and often crash it due to memory overflows. After doing some tests of memory, where is it bound and rushing to death into some small fleet battles and skirmishes I have gotten some conclusions: 1. Eve Do could benefit if optimized for 64 bitscurrently it uses very easily over 1.3 gb of ram on normal flight, up to 1.5 on small skirmishes and gobs all the 2GB of 32 bit memory it can handle on fleet battles. if optimized it could probably reduce crashes and increase performance. Cache: a change to 64 bits would allow the client to precache a LOT more of data, ignoring textures since those are handled in the GPU, you could arguably keep preloaded all the adjacent systems (would add some overhead on the server as well which could be handled by multithreading on the backend for keeping up to date precached data). The benefit of this would be that heavily loaded systems could be loaded way faster into the computer and in the technical side it could allow things like for example, looking out the window and seeing who is outside, How? simple by keeping the out of station grid loaded on memory to fetch data from it. 2. CPU, EVE is CPU bound currentlygiven its single core nature, big fleet battles see frames dropping from 250+ fps to 8 fps at max graphics, with the CPU at 100% usage, this happens around 300+ ppl shooting at each other. multithreading could increase this a lot as stated by CCP in some other topic, could keep audio, gpu feeding, physics, network, UI, on separate threads increasing performance a lot. Tidi is due to the fact the server is still single threading if the servers were able to multithread each node, we could get a performance gain on the 50% per core (more or less... depends on overhead just a rough estimate). separating physics on amount of ships per core, networking, and stat calculation, but it would need VERY fast RAM to fetch the data shared among cores. 3. GPU: EVE is poorly optimized for GPU tasks currentlyI m not sure but it seems like it loads the texture for ships more than once, given they are pretty low resolution its strange they use so MUCH memory on the GPU, the models are very low Poly, but the shaders and those damned clouds seem to kill any hardware or to have very high hits, however given current GPU capacity, this is in the meantime something we can ignore. if it was up to me which is not... my technical priority to CCP would be to multithread the server, then the client and then 64 bits. as a note, multithreading can be done without forcing players to change hardware so this is definitely the best way to go right now. Tippia is half right, 64 bits is not mandatory right now but it could improve things quite a bit.
This. And frankly it would be wise to do this rather painful transition sooner than later and just get it over with. If EVE is to grow then it won't have a choice in this matter at some point anyway. Whilst it won't improve performance except in very demanding situations which aren't exactly all that common, 32 bits + single core is going to become a very, very limiting factor sooner than later. Assuming that CCP is going to stay on the track of making EVE an even crazier game than it is today. |
Khira Kitamatsu
537
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 17:50:00 -
[87] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade? And what benefit do you see from changing Eve from 32 bit to 64 bit? It's not like Eve is using anywhere near the 32 bit limits. Sub 1GB atm. you don't play eve do you? most if not ALL fleet battles will cap EVE at the 2GB limit and often crash it due to memory overflows. After doing some tests of memory, where is it bound and rushing to death into some small fleet battles and skirmishes I have gotten some conclusions: 1. Eve Do could benefit if optimized for 64 bitscurrently it uses very easily over 1.3 gb of ram on normal flight, up to 1.5 on small skirmishes and gobs all the 2GB of 32 bit memory it can handle on fleet battles. if optimized it could probably reduce crashes and increase performance. Cache: a change to 64 bits would allow the client to precache a LOT more of data, ignoring textures since those are handled in the GPU, you could arguably keep preloaded all the adjacent systems (would add some overhead on the server as well which could be handled by multithreading on the backend for keeping up to date precached data). The benefit of this would be that heavily loaded systems could be loaded way faster into the computer and in the technical side it could allow things like for example, looking out the window and seeing who is outside, How? simple by keeping the out of station grid loaded on memory to fetch data from it. 2. CPU, EVE is CPU bound currentlygiven its single core nature, big fleet battles see frames dropping from 250+ fps to 8 fps at max graphics, with the CPU at 100% usage, this happens around 300+ ppl shooting at each other. multithreading could increase this a lot as stated by CCP in some other topic, could keep audio, gpu feeding, physics, network, UI, on separate threads increasing performance a lot. Tidi is due to the fact the server is still single threading if the servers were able to multithread each node, we could get a performance gain on the 50% per core (more or less... depends on overhead just a rough estimate). separating physics on amount of ships per core, networking, and stat calculation, but it would need VERY fast RAM to fetch the data shared among cores. 3. GPU: EVE is poorly optimized for GPU tasks currentlyI m not sure but it seems like it loads the texture for ships more than once, given they are pretty low resolution its strange they use so MUCH memory on the GPU, the models are very low Poly, but the shaders and those damned clouds seem to kill any hardware or to have very high hits, however given current GPU capacity, this is in the meantime something we can ignore. if it was up to me which is not... my technical priority to CCP would be to multithread the server, then the client and then 64 bits. as a note, multithreading can be done without forcing players to change hardware so this is definitely the best way to go right now. Tippia is half right, 64 bits is not mandatory right now but it could improve things quite a bit.
Thank you Ager for making it more clear as to how a 64bit game client can improve EVE. I just did not have the time nor patience to explain in such detail. Because for them to continue to say there would be no improvement is just silly. Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Din Chao
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
249
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 18:07:00 -
[88] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:Delen Ormand wrote:Op has a point. There seems to be a lot of people posting here that have no idea about computers.
Eve would be better if it was for 64 bit computers. If you compare a 32 bit computer with a 64 bit computer, the 64 bit one has more bits. Because you have more bits, you can tell those bits to do extra things. You can do twice as many things at once with a 64 bit computer than you can with a 32 bit one, because 64 is twice as much as 32.
This is basic logic, people. I say we wait for 128 bits!!!!! Issler Off-topic: My friend bought a Commodore 128 because it was twice as good as our C64s. The best feature was that you could start it in C64 mode and play the library of C64 games we already had. And that's all we did with it... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14427
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 18:13:00 -
[89] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Let me put it this way, other MMO's, ones older than EVE Online offer 64bit versions of the game. That means people that cannot run 64bit can still run 32bit, but those with the ability to run the 64bit can. Look at WoW as an example. Back when the first introduced 64bit I and many millions of other players saw a huge jump in game performance by moving to 64bit client. That is all I am asking for here. You're asking for something you have no way of knowing if it will happen.
Quote:Is the ability to fully utilize what my machine is capable of doing. Why is that needed?
Quote:Right, my comp is a POS and in shambles and can barely run - dude - you are the one now that is looking like a tool. BTW - my system can easily run 4 instances of EVE with not so much as a hiccup. In other words, it would not benefit from 64 bit GÇö it already runs perfectly. So what benefit are you hoping to see?
Quote:Then they could release a DX11, tessellation and better physics to those of us that can make use of it. None of that means there's any need for 64 bit.
Quote:Thank you Ager for making it more clear as to how a 64bit game client can improve EVE. GǪi.e. not much. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
2055
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 18:30:00 -
[90] - Quote
Can't help myself....
Khira Kitamatsu wrote: Look at WoW as an example. Back when the first introduced 64bit I and many millions of other players saw a huge jump in game performance by moving to 64bit client. That is all I am asking for here.
...
Plus everything I said would help this game and yes 64bit client for WOW did show a great improvement
GB2WOW
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
2567
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 18:33:00 -
[91] - Quote
Luddites abound in this thread.
Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Kult Altol
Confederation Navy Research Epsilon Fleet
328
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 19:26:00 -
[92] - Quote
As an unwashed mass from Mac land, I don't care how many epeens eve is. Does it run? Yes. Does it look good? Yes. Good enough for me. An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded. A narrow mind is a focused mind.
|
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 19:31:00 -
[93] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Let me put it this way, other MMO's, ones older than EVE Online offer 64bit versions of the game. That means people that cannot run 64bit can still run 32bit, but those with the ability to run the 64bit can. Look at WoW as an example. Back when the first introduced 64bit I and many millions of other players saw a huge jump in game performance by moving to 64bit client. That is all I am asking for here. Is the ability to fully utilize what my machine is capable of doing. For anyone to say that we would not see improvements in this game is just being silly - especially if CCP wrote the code to optimize the use of a 64bit system.
Then they could release a DX11, tessellation and better physics to those of us that can make use of it. All I wish to see is EVE grow into a more robust and enriching game experience and environment. As it is now CCP is tied to the fact that some people refuse to upgrade their gaming rigs and or OS's. How is that fair to the hundreds of thousands that have decent up-to-date gaming rigs?
Plooooooooeeeeeeeeeaaasse. This is either a lie, or a kind-of placebo effect. Or, other changes were made in that client. It would be remarkably silly that simply moving from 32 to 64 bit, all else being equal (except the size of your pointers, which are twice as large) would give you a performance boost.
With respect to tessellation... no. You've either got to go all-in with one or the other, but not both. Why? In order to do it properly, you'll need two pipelines of art assets. That's very expensive to produce and support.
And... Eve has Physics? That's a bit of a shock to be honest. Where? |
Haulie Berry
817
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 19:37:00 -
[94] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Let me put it this way, other MMO's, ones older than EVE Online offer 64bit versions of the game. That means people that cannot run 64bit can still run 32bit, but those with the ability to run the 64bit can. Look at WoW as an example. Back when the first introduced 64bit I and many millions of other players saw a huge jump in game performance by moving to 64bit client. That is all I am asking for here. Is the ability to fully utilize what my machine is capable of doing. For anyone to say that we would not see improvements in this game is just being silly - especially if CCP wrote the code to optimize the use of a 64bit system.
Then they could release a DX11, tessellation and better physics to those of us that can make use of it. All I wish to see is EVE grow into a more robust and enriching game experience and environment. As it is now CCP is tied to the fact that some people refuse to upgrade their gaming rigs and or OS's. How is that fair to the hundreds of thousands that have decent up-to-date gaming rigs?
Plooooooooeeeeeeeeeaaasse. This is either a lie, or a kind-of placebo effect. Or, other changes were made in that client. It would be remarkably silly that simply moving from 32 to 64 bit, all else being equal (except the size of your pointers, which are twice as large) would give you a performance boost. With respect to tessellation... no. You've either got to go all-in with one or the other, but not both. Why? In order to do it properly, you'll need two pipelines of art assets. That's very expensive to produce and support. And... Eve has Physics? That's a bit of a shock to be honest. Where?
Look, you just don't understand.
Currently, we have this many bits: ............................. And we COULD have THIS many bits: ........................................................
Do you not see how the latter is better in every conceivable way? The fact that they haven't already given us the extra bits we deserve is frankly indicative of gross negligence (or possibly even a bit-hoarding conspiracy) on CCP's part. |
I Need PLEX
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 19:45:00 -
[95] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade?
YOU'LL NEVER GET MY TANDY 1000
stop being so entitled poor people play eve too |
Korah Arnelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 19:49:00 -
[96] - Quote
In most cases, games don't really benefit from a 32 to 64 change in execution code. The biggest reason why is the fact that most games are pretty simple under the hood when it comes to their internal logic (AI, pathfinding, game rules like for RPGs or strategy games, and etc). Since EVE's logic is server-side the only thing I can imagine the EVE client gaining is more system memory for fancier UI support (since UI although is partially accelerated by the GPU pipeline it still has to deal with the harsh reality of IO interrupts which take FOREVER in terms of computation) which would be nice, but I really doubt they're hitting any memory block issues yet. Even then they can address up to 3 GB with PAE, so it's no rush for them to port their existing code over to 64 bit since all 64 bit environments (even Linux) can support 32 bit executable code. So, why bother? |
Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
310
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 19:55:00 -
[97] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:Thank you Ager for making it more clear as to how a 64bit game client can improve EVE. GǪi.e. not much.
this, what I said, is that there are other more effective ways to enhance the game than to going 64 bits in the meantime.
Mostly multithreading is the safest one, since it does NOT limit who can use the game, it works on a single core pc as well as on a 64 core PC (based on how many threads they make, the more the merrier.)
|
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
157
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 20:03:00 -
[98] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:...the more the merrier.)
Actually in my experience, no, the more the not merrier. The reason is cache thrashing. Eager developer decides he can split his work out into 6 threads, one for each core. He profiles his program. Is it six times as fast?
No.
Why not?
Well, there's a huge amount of cache contention between the 6 threads. He's on average 1.3x faster than the single core solution was.
What to do?
Well, it can be done, but it's very hard. It involves messing around aligning your objects so they aren't on the same cache line, and that's just the beginning, because then he's got to make sure everything's being executed in a relatively orderly way, so he isn't wasting time in mutexes or spin-locks. And that's very hard to get right as well, because there's a massive bottleneck waiting for him down the line called the Graphics Card, which has a driver that's guarded to hell for single core access.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14428
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 20:04:00 -
[99] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:Tippia wrote:Quote:Thank you Ager for making it more clear as to how a 64bit game client can improve EVE. GǪi.e. not much. this, what I said, is that there are other more effective ways to enhance the game than to going 64 bits in the meantime. Mostly multithreading is the safest one, since it does NOT limit who can use the game, it works on a single core pc as well as on a 64 core PC (based on how many threads they make, the more the merrier.) Yeah. Of the two things you actually listed, pre-caching would be the far more interesting idea, but it's not even tied to 64-bit GÇö it's just that such a mechanism could conceivably push the memory footprint to the point where you'd regularly need the larger address space, and yet not just be a case of bloat. But even then, that would entail a pretty significant rewrite of both the client and the server, and in a dynamic universe such as this one, the question is how much it would actually end up improving things.
In a sense, it could be the client-side version of their brain-in-a-box initiative: side-load and pre-calculate some taxing bit of data and shove it into place when needed. But unlike the boxed brain, it's not a near-static thing, which rather limits the usefulness. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
231
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 20:08:00 -
[100] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:You cannot use more than 2GB with a 32bit system.
I hope you are talking about thread assignment Is your computer plugged in? Does not seem to be operating correctly. Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
|
Prince Kobol
762
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 20:09:00 -
[101] - Quote
I WANT 256bit
Come on CCP pull you finger out and give us 256 like yesterday |
Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
310
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 20:14:00 -
[102] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:...the more the merrier.)
Actually in my experience, no, the more the not merrier. The reason is cache thrashing. Eager developer decides he can split his work out into 6 threads, one for each core. He profiles his program. Is it six times as fast? No. Why not? Well, there's a huge amount of cache contention between the 6 threads. He's on average 1.3x faster than the single core solution was. What to do? Well, it can be done, but it's very hard. It involves messing around aligning your objects so they aren't on the same cache line, and that's just the beginning, because then he's got to make sure everything's being executed in a relatively orderly way, so he isn't wasting time in mutexes or spin-locks. And that's very hard to get right as well, because there's a massive bottleneck waiting for him down the line called the Graphics Card, which has a driver that's guarded to hell for single core access.
what you say is true, and I did mention it in some form in my BIG block of text, in 2 things, I mentioned each core would add maybe 50% more speed or about 1.5, not 100% and I did mention that Memory would need to be very fast as well we would have an overhead.
true its a coding hell but its doable, games like supreme commander can use up to 17 cores I think? (tho for some really minor tasks...) and bioshock could use up to 7.
I believe eve could be split in somewhere about: 1. Network 2. Game Logic (hp, stats, damage, etc) 3. UI 4. Graphics feed 5. Audio 6. Database (loading stuff to and from the disk as well allocating memory accordingly and queries to memory). 7. and a last thread for minor functions like (path finding for own ships, APIs, the game accessories like the browser, chatting, debugging, and for other future functions (mini games).
As an interesting thing I just though about, it might be possible to use this to overcome some of the limits of 32 bit architecture, by allocating different memory whenever possible to each thread you could get the game to use a lot more of memory despite being 32 bits).
|
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
199
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 20:17:00 -
[103] - Quote
I may be just a simple country hyper chicken, but I do recall wow-64 running noticeably smoother, especially in heavy traffic in orgrimmar (not placebo), and the graphics even looked improved (possible placebo).
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Medude
Unstable Reaction Inc. Takahashi Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 20:20:00 -
[104] - Quote
I'll leave this here for the OP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6WHBO_Qc-Q
On a slightly more sensible note if memory serves me correctly the biggest performance jump for EVE would be going multithreaded on the server side |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
159
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 20:28:00 -
[105] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:
As an interesting thing I just though about, it might be possible to use this to overcome some of the limits of 32 bit architecture, by allocating different memory whenever possible to each thread you could get the game to use a lot more of memory despite being 32 bits).
That won't work. Threads are in-process. You'd have to do it out of process and that gives you a bit of a marshalling headache.
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darmwand
Repo.
124
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 00:11:00 -
[106] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote: Well... there would be more bits.
32 more bits, in fact.
You know how in Eve, bigger ships are always better?
It's like that with bits, too.
However, your Computer will still be the same size but have more bits. Doesn't that make your bits smaller? darmwand Repossession Agent http://www.repo-corp.net/ Recruitment is OPEN |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3449
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 00:17:00 -
[107] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Super spikinator wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade? It isn't a minority. It is a majority. Thankfully, it looks like only around 10-15% of Eve players are still running on XP. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2954304#post2954304
You can run Windows 7 without a DX11 capable graphics card.
While my desktop supports DX11, I like being able to do my industry stuff from my laptop when I travel. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Wyrm Drake
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 00:40:00 -
[108] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade? And what benefit do you see from changing Eve from 32 bit to 64 bit? It's not like Eve is using anywhere near the 32 bit limits. Sub 1GB atm. you don't play eve do you? most if not ALL fleet battles will cap EVE at the 2GB limit and often crash it due to memory overflows. After doing some tests of memory, where is it bound and rushing to death into some small fleet battles and skirmishes I have gotten some conclusions: 1. Eve Do could benefit if optimized for 64 bitscurrently it uses very easily over 1.3 gb of ram on normal flight, up to 1.5 on small skirmishes and gobs all the 2GB of 32 bit memory it can handle on fleet battles. if optimized it could probably reduce crashes and increase performance. Cache: a change to 64 bits would allow the client to precache a LOT more of data, ignoring textures since those are handled in the GPU, you could arguably keep preloaded all the adjacent systems (would add some overhead on the server as well which could be handled by multithreading on the backend for keeping up to date precached data). The benefit of this would be that heavily loaded systems could be loaded way faster into the computer and in the technical side it could allow things like for example, looking out the window and seeing who is outside, How? simple by keeping the out of station grid loaded on memory to fetch data from it. 2. CPU, EVE is CPU bound currentlygiven its single core nature, big fleet battles see frames dropping from 250+ fps to 8 fps at max graphics, with the CPU at 100% usage, this happens around 300+ ppl shooting at each other. multithreading could increase this a lot as stated by CCP in some other topic, could keep audio, gpu feeding, physics, network, UI, on separate threads increasing performance a lot. Tidi is due to the fact the server is still single threading if the servers were able to multithread each node, we could get a performance gain on the 50% per core (more or less... depends on overhead just a rough estimate). separating physics on amount of ships per core, networking, and stat calculation, but it would need VERY fast RAM to fetch the data shared among cores. 3. GPU: EVE is poorly optimized for GPU tasks currentlyI m not sure but it seems like it loads the texture for ships more than once, given they are pretty low resolution its strange they use so MUCH memory on the GPU, the models are very low Poly, but the shaders and those damned clouds seem to kill any hardware or to have very high hits, however given current GPU capacity, this is in the meantime something we can ignore. if it was up to me which is not... my technical priority to CCP would be to multithread the server, then the client and then 64 bits. as a note, multithreading can be done without forcing players to change hardware so this is definitely the best way to go right now. Tippia is half right, 64 bits is not mandatory right now but it could improve things quite a bit. Thank you Ager for making it more clear as to how a 64bit game client can improve EVE. I just did not have the time nor patience to explain in such detail. Because for them to continue to say there would be no improvement is just silly.
Lol, yer sooo predictable. Ager said nothing several others have not said, including myself. But this is the difference between someone that knows about computers compared to someone that thinks they know about computers. He comes to the sdame conclusion we do, but because he includes upgrading to 64bit, you thank him. No one has said they should not do 64bit, but that there are other ways to improve Eve long before 64bit as 64 is not going to give you as much improvement as you think it will. And I don't give a **** what you perceived in WoW, you ARE wrong. Regardless of what you think you experienced. It's a kind of placebo effect (I have seen it more times than you can imagine).
I am not saying they should not do 64bit at some point (especially if they get REAL AI). I would LOVE to see it. There are just many other things they can do that will give much more benefit than 64bit will.
Oh, and IDC what you think. I know your type all too well. You do NOT know what you're talkin about. But go ahead, keep lookin like a fool. It only hurts you. |
Velarra
232
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Posted - 2013.05.31 03:01:00 -
[109] - Quote
Ok this thread is great. :)
Not too seriously yet with some vague interest:
Has CCP considered coding up a native eve client for OS X? As a say...20% side project or something? (like that arcade machine, or the VR tech demo game). Yes i'm aware it'd probably be a herculean effort in light of DX related issues etc. |
Drachiel
Mercury LLC
26
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 03:02:00 -
[110] - Quote
I would rather have the latest stable OpenGL than DirectX. DX is end of life, the GPU vendors have been forcing MS to update it for ages and now MS is done because they want to only develop "core" games on consoles, and have PC/Windows be only for casual games. DirectX is an EOL closed source API, which is a hair's breadth away from deprecated. OpenGL is the future of PC gaming and I'd rather see efforts there than anywhere else client tech wise. |
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Velarra
232
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Posted - 2013.05.31 03:12:00 -
[111] - Quote
Drachiel wrote:I would rather have the latest stable OpenGL than DirectX. DX is end of life, the GPU vendors have been forcing MS to update it for ages and now MS is done because they want to only develop "core" games on consoles, and have PC/Windows be only for casual games. DirectX is an EOL closed source API, which is a hair's breadth away from deprecated. OpenGL is the future of PC gaming and I'd rather see efforts there than anywhere else client tech wise.
*Humorous reference to Captains Quarters & its advanced, ground breaking, 3D technology here*
*Followed up by references to "Ambulation" and "18 months"!*
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5292
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 03:54:00 -
[112] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Look, you just don't understand.
Currently, we have this many bits: ............................. And we COULD have THIS many bits: ........................................................
Do you not see how the latter is better in every conceivable way? The fact that they haven't already given us the extra bits we deserve is frankly indicative of gross negligence (or possibly even a bit-hoarding conspiracy) on CCP's part. Well it's obvious you've bought into the misconception of "bigger numbers are always better in computing, right!?"
I bet you're one of those people who buys desktops with 32 GB of RAM. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
113
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 04:03:00 -
[113] - Quote
darmwand wrote:Haulie Berry wrote: Well... there would be more bits.
32 more bits, in fact.
You know how in Eve, bigger ships are always better?
It's like that with bits, too.
However, your Computer will still be the same size but have more bits. Doesn't that make your bits smaller?
Personally, I have huge bits. Just sayin'.. |
Mr M
Agony Unleashed
240
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 04:56:00 -
[114] - Quote
Bollocks to 64-bit. Let's make it 128-bit right away. Just imagine the amazfabolous things it could do? 4000 fps when you're spinning your ship inside a station.
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Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
162
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Posted - 2013.05.31 05:50:00 -
[115] - Quote
Drachiel wrote:I would rather have the latest stable OpenGL than DirectX. DX is end of life, the GPU vendors have been forcing MS to update it for ages and now MS is done because they want to only develop "core" games on consoles, and have PC/Windows be only for casual games. DirectX is an EOL closed source API, which is a hair's breadth away from deprecated. OpenGL is the future of PC gaming and I'd rather see efforts there than anywhere else client tech wise.
Also, with OpenGL you get D3D11 goodies on Windows XP (with OpenGL 4.2/4.3) and have some cross-platform compatibility (I mean without Whine etc.). However, if you're still running XP, I'm betting the rest of your machine is just about to explode, regardless of graphics card, so that is almost certainly not going to be the bottleneck. |
Nightlund Audeles
The Halcyon Directive Electus Matari
69
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 08:23:00 -
[116] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade?
Have you been asleep this whole time or maybe you should stop running EVE with everything on low. |
Nightlund Audeles
The Halcyon Directive Electus Matari
69
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 08:25:00 -
[117] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade?
Oh and for the record I sure do love those kind of people who talk out of their ass without knowing a thing about how a game is developed and maintained. Good job! Fail! |
Marcus Harikari
Guitar Players of EVE
164
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Posted - 2013.05.31 09:07:00 -
[118] - Quote
No I love WinXP!!! |
Adela Talvanen
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 14:25:00 -
[119] - Quote
Given the fact that Microsoft is dropping support for XP in April next year, that may shrink the XP user pool down to the point that CCP may well be thinking about changing to 64 bit code, and multi threaded processors, and maybe calculating how much a new shard, or Tranquility 2 will cost, as the current Tranquility server is just like any other piece of electronic equipment, in that it has a sell and dispose of date as more advanced electronics with better capabilities are manufactured. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
146
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 14:39:00 -
[120] - Quote
Adela Talvanen wrote:Given the fact that Microsoft is dropping support for XP in April next year, that may shrink the XP user pool down to...
no. everyone who's still using XP by now is either highly resistant to progress or cannot afford to upgrade his system.
So, our beloved XP crowd will stay with us until their PC's break down. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |
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Haulie Berry
840
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Posted - 2013.05.31 14:56:00 -
[121] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Look, you just don't understand.
Currently, we have this many bits: ............................. And we COULD have THIS many bits: ........................................................
Do you not see how the latter is better in every conceivable way? The fact that they haven't already given us the extra bits we deserve is frankly indicative of gross negligence (or possibly even a bit-hoarding conspiracy) on CCP's part. Well it's obvious you've bought into the misconception of "bigger numbers are always better in computing, right!?" I bet you're one of those people who buys desktops with 32 GB of RAM.
There are 500K subscribers being shorted 32 bits. That's 16 MILLION bits CCP is stealing from us, the "valued" customers.
******* disgraceful.
It's time for us to rise up and demand the bits that are rightfully ours. No longer shall we suffer under the yoke of the bit-bourgeoisie! |
BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
232
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 16:00:00 -
[122] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote: "Tippia is half right, 64 bits is not mandatory right now but it could improve things quite a bit." Thank you Ager for making it more clear as to how a 64bit game client can improve EVE. I just did not have the time nor patience to explain in such detail. Because for them to continue to say there would be no improvement is just silly.
You ignored the 1/2 of his comment that did not agree with you... so let me fix this for you -
Khira Kitamatsu wrote: I just did not have the knowledge nor expertise to explain in such detail. Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1496
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 16:30:00 -
[123] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Adela Talvanen wrote:Given the fact that Microsoft is dropping support for XP in April next year, that may shrink the XP user pool down to... no. everyone who's still using XP by now is either highly resistant to progress or cannot afford to upgrade his system. So, our beloved XP crowd will stay with us until their PC's break down.
Or they were happy they had an operating system that worked and did what they needed it to do without blowing up on them repeatedly.
Not everyone stays with an older machine due to lack of finances or a resistance to change. Some people just like **** that works when they need it to. Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
26
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 17:07:00 -
[124] - Quote
I would like to add that the eve CLIENT is already a fully multithreaded process. Mine is usually running between 50-100 threads simultaneously. All those threads perform different functions - some IO, some specific computations, some simply managing the gpu cache - etc. Those tasks do end up getting spread throughout the multiple cores in a system (not proportionally, as the tasks themselves to not all rely on the same amount of processing power. |
Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
311
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 17:27:00 -
[125] - Quote
Clansworth wrote:I would like to add that the eve CLIENT is already a fully multithreaded process. Mine is usually running between 50-100 threads simultaneously. All those threads perform different functions - some IO, some specific computations, some simply managing the gpu cache - etc. Those tasks do end up getting spread throughout the multiple cores in a system (not proportionally, as the tasks themselves to not all rely on the same amount of processing power.
wut what!? I don't even...
you sure you aren't confusing intra process tasks with threads? a single process could entail hundreds of loaded software,DLLs, OCX, subsystems and etc.
But all of this are being processed on a single thread hardware wise, in an orderly fashion, meaning one of your cores the one running eve is just doing something like, process bit 1 of module 1, then of mod 2, then 3, then bit 2 of mod 1, etc etc...
true multithreading means that each Core would be processing quite some modules by itself, meaning they have to cycle much less between same modules and thus finishing tasks faster which Equals more performance. |
Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
26
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 18:04:00 -
[126] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:Clansworth wrote:I would like to add that the eve CLIENT is already a fully multithreaded process. Mine is usually running between 50-100 threads simultaneously. All those threads perform different functions - some IO, some specific computations, some simply managing the gpu cache - etc. Those tasks do end up getting spread throughout the multiple cores in a system (not proportionally, as the tasks themselves to not all rely on the same amount of processing power. wut what!? I don't even... you sure you aren't confusing intra process tasks with threads? a single process could entail hundreds of loaded software,DLLs, OCX, subsystems and etc. But all of this are being processed on a single thread hardware wise, in an orderly fashion, meaning one of your cores the one running eve is just doing something like, process bit 1 of module 1, then of mod 2, then 3, then bit 2 of mod 1, etc etc... true multithreading means that each Core would be processing quite some modules by itself, meaning they have to cycle much less between same modules and thus finishing tasks faster which Equals more performance.
OPTIMIZED multithreading would spread processor intensive tasks evenly to different cores - however, there are only one or two tasks the client really does that affect performance, and yes, those tasks reside in a single main task, so that is why most the cpu load of the exefile process run on a single core. however, support tasks (voice chat, IO, cache management, etc) are done in their own distinct threads, and those can be and are easily handled off to other cores, at the discretion of the OS.
The discussion of multithreading for performance improvements has been in regards to the sol system servers, NOT the client. The reason they had to implement time dilation was to compensate for the fact that usage growth in the single-threaded sol process has increased faster than hardware speeds have. multithreading the sol process is not entirely easy, as it is a linear progression of actions and results, continually running once every second (or longer now with time dilation). The only real way to multithread that sequence is to break the systems up into smaller chunks - which could have a lot more consequences. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14460
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 18:40:00 -
[127] - Quote
Adela Talvanen wrote:Given the fact that Microsoft is dropping support for XP in April next year, that may shrink the XP user pool down to the point that CCP may well be thinking about changing to 64 bit code, and multi threaded processors, and maybe calculating how much a new shard, or Tranquility 2 will cost, as the current Tranquility server is just like any other piece of electronic equipment, in that it has a sell and dispose of date as more advanced electronics with better capabilities are manufactured. GǪexcept that just because they're dropping XP doesn't meant they're they're dropping 32-bit. The XP-holdover issue is a completely different matter that mainly holds back DX11. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Haulie Berry
840
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 18:44:00 -
[128] - Quote
So is this thread ever going to reach a point where we stop conflating any/ever technology that eve doesn't currently use with a 64 client? |
Ramona McCandless
Standards and Practices Petition Blizzard
40
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 19:33:00 -
[129] - Quote
If the OP wants to buy me a new rig to run EvE better, then I dont think its fair that they should be held back.
I am one of the "minority". Please let me know when you are going to wire me the funds, and Ill EvEMail you all the details.
Thanks. "You designed these rules to trick me and it's not fair! I don't have anything left and might as well quit now..."-á-á-Authorized Pixel Distributor
Tell The Others |
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CCP Explorer
C C P C C P Alliance
1600
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Posted - 2013.06.17 19:53:00 -
[130] - Quote
I'm coming late to this thread, but we have no plans for a 64-bit EVE Client. The EVE Universe Server is 64-bit because we need access to the extra memory but there is only need for a 64-bit EVE Client once we need more than 3 GB on Windows XP / Windows Vista 32 or 4 GB on Windows Vista/7/8 64. Otherwise refer to the replies from Tippia, they were all quite good. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Software Director | EVE Universe, EVE Online // CCP Games | @erlendur |
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3550
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 01:46:00 -
[131] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Well it's obvious you've bought into the misconception of "bigger numbers are always better in computing, right!?"
I bet you're one of those people who buys desktops with 32 GB of RAM.
Mine has 20g of RAM. Not because I need it, just because it came with 4 and a 16gig kit was not significantly more expensive than an 8gig kit. (I think in some circumstances I would be better off ripping the 2x2gig stick kit out and leaving myself with 2 empty slots, but I digress). RAM's gotten so cheap that it's no longer a good barometer of someone's epeen numbers addiction. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
doomlord289
Rock Grinders BricK sQuAD.
12
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 02:19:00 -
[132] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:I'm coming late to this thread Explorer vs OP. FIGHT!
CCP Explorer wrote:[W]e have no plans for a 64-bit EVE Client. The EVE Universe Server is 64-bit because we need access to the extra memory but there is only need for a 64-bit EVE Client once we need more than 3 GB on Windows XP / Windows Vista 32 or 4 GB on Windows Vista/7/8 64. Finish Her!
CCP Explorer wrote:Otherwise refer to the replies from Tippia, they were all quite good. Fatality!
Excellent post Explorer. Thanks for clearing that up for everyone. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1197
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 02:58:00 -
[133] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Well it's obvious you've bought into the misconception of "bigger numbers are always better in computing, right!?"
I bet you're one of those people who buys desktops with 32 GB of RAM. Mine has 20g of RAM. Not because I need it, just because it came with 4 and a 16gig kit was not significantly more expensive than an 8gig kit. (I think in some circumstances I would be better off ripping the 2x2gig stick kit out and leaving myself with 2 empty slots, but I digress). RAM's gotten so cheap that it's no longer a good barometer of someone's epeen numbers addiction.
No more than monocles.
HTFU!...for the children! |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
263
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 03:03:00 -
[134] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:RubyPorto wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Well it's obvious you've bought into the misconception of "bigger numbers are always better in computing, right!?"
I bet you're one of those people who buys desktops with 32 GB of RAM. Mine has 20g of RAM. Not because I need it, just because it came with 4 and a 16gig kit was not significantly more expensive than an 8gig kit. (I think in some circumstances I would be better off ripping the 2x2gig stick kit out and leaving myself with 2 empty slots, but I digress). RAM's gotten so cheap that it's no longer a good barometer of someone's epeen numbers addiction. No more than monocles.
but I want to be special You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Kronos
Mine 'N' Refine The Unforgiven Alliance
6
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Posted - 2013.06.18 09:01:00 -
[135] - Quote
I was going to say EVE do not need a 64-bit program, I think 99% of other games are all 32-bit and they run OK even newer games with higher demands.
Funny thing is even MS Office 2013 is more stable in 32-bit even thought they designed a 64-bit.
If anything CCP needs to make the client stable for Windows 8 more than anything else as its the way Microsoft are pushing new PC systems. |
dexington
Dexington Corporation
664
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 09:26:00 -
[136] - Quote
Barakach wrote:1) Certain algorithms are much faster when using 64bit registers
Unless you end up in a situation where you need to compare integers larger then 32 bit, or need memory allocation beyond 32 bit address space, you are not really gaining anything by using 64 bit registers.
Depending on the instruction set of the CPU there may be optimized instructions for comparing larger then 32 bit values, on 32 bit systems, but often this can be done without any extra help from the CPU. Most of the time it would be enough to compare the left or right 32 bit part of the 64 bit value, and only compare the remaining part if a match was found in the first part.
Besides a lot of the really heavy number crunching is done on the GPU, which is likely to be using larger then 64 bit registers. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
87
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 09:44:00 -
[137] - Quote
I personally think that the question should be - when will the client be able to used multi-cored processors efficiently. If that requires a 64bit re-write then that I'm all for. Wouldn't it be nice to specify the priority and spread of client accounts over several processors out of the launcher...
Is that even do-able? I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
1129
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 09:59:00 -
[138] - Quote
How much better would eve be with 32 more bits than it had now.
seems to work fine for me as it is. Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
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dexington
Dexington Corporation
664
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 10:05:00 -
[139] - Quote
Klandi wrote:I personally think that the question should be - when will the client be able to used multi-cored processors efficiently. If that requires a 64bit re-write then that I'm all for.
making eve a 64 bit application would not mean it would support multiple cores. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
Spurty
897
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 10:13:00 -
[140] - Quote
Only reason not have a 64bit OS is due to still owning a 32bit CPU
Unlikely you have one of those if you bought your computer in the last 5+ years!
We know some businesses still use them in their embedded devices which is why ms still sells 32bit, but who here is logging into eve via a heart monitor???
Look up PC Gaming rig 2011 for where you should be at a minimum in 2013 --- GÇ£If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.GÇ¥ GÇò Philip K. **** |
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Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
155
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 10:13:00 -
[141] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote: Or they were happy they had an operating system that worked and did what they needed it to do without blowing up on them repeatedly.
Not everyone stays with an older machine due to lack of finances or a resistance to change. Some people just like **** that works when they need it to.
By now Windows XP is a horrible atrocity that should be put down to spare it further suffering.
I can understand why someone would still use it, in favour of old (probalby important) software that doesn't receive upgrades anymore or for lack of money or time or both.
I can even understand plain old laziness.
But the claim that Windows XP is still a good operating system is just plain ridiculous. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |
dexington
Dexington Corporation
665
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 10:29:00 -
[142] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:I can understand why someone would still use it, in favour of old (probalby important) software that doesn't receive upgrades anymore or for lack of money or time or both.
Unlikely software written for Windows XP wont run on Windows 7 or 8, it can happen but it's very unlikely.
You will not be able to run 16 bit application on any 64 bit system running windows, it not possible to truncate 64 bit registers below 32 bit, which means you can't run programs written for win 3.11 or dos. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
829
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 11:27:00 -
[143] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:I'm coming late to this thread, but we have no plans for a 64-bit EVE Client. The EVE Universe Server is 64-bit because we need access to the extra memory but there is only need for a 64-bit EVE Client once we need more than 3 GB on Windows XP / Windows Vista 32 or 4 GB on Windows Vista/7/8 64. Otherwise refer to the replies from Tippia, they were all quite good.
Promote him to CCP Tippia ! This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.-á Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
155
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 11:33:00 -
[144] - Quote
dexington wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:I can understand why someone would still use it, in favour of old (probalby important) software that doesn't receive upgrades anymore or for lack of money or time or both. Unlikely software written for Windows XP wont run on Windows 7 or 8, it can happen but it's very unlikely. You will not be able to run 16 bit application on any 64 bit system running windows, it not possible to truncate 64 bit registers below 32 bit, which means you can't run programs written for win 3.11 or dos.
That's what I said, didn't I? There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1530
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 11:50:00 -
[145] - Quote
Kronos wrote:If anything CCP needs to make the client stable for Windows 8 more than anything else as its the way Microsoft are pushing new PC systems.
Well, it's been running absolutely fine on my Windows 8 pro desktop and laptop, for over half a year now? Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Tiger Armani
Mialto Corp The Last Chancers.
49
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 12:25:00 -
[146] - Quote
Always nice to read comments made by people with no understanding in IT.
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Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
330
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 13:11:00 -
[147] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:I'm coming late to this thread, but we have no plans for a 64-bit EVE Client. The EVE Universe Server is 64-bit because we need access to the extra memory but there is only need for a 64-bit EVE Client once we need more than 3 GB on Windows XP / Windows Vista 32 or 4 GB on Windows Vista/7/8 64. Otherwise refer to the replies from Tippia, they were all quite good.
Explorer I understand what you say, however my EVE client often crashes when it goes beyond the 2GB threshold, so it is being limited by a more legacy limit, care to give some insight about this? |
Jawa Gaterau
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 13:28:00 -
[148] - Quote
Tiger Armani wrote:Always nice to read comments made by people with no understanding in IT.
Quoted for truth.
I do agree with some contributors it would be a nicety but it is an optional extra rather than a requirement. Plus it would have very little benefit to a large amount of the userbase and if it did go 64 bit native - would that reduce the userbase and potentially alienate customers who can't afford an upgrade? Plus dev time to maintain the new 64 bit version.
After reading this thread the brain has started to hurt. There is different sorts of threading such as course or fine; not that 64 bit is needed for that. Doesn't make sense to why a 64bit client would be needed beyond needing to address >2GB or >3GB (if you have 1GB kernel space reserved via boot.ini switch ) even then PAE has existed on 32 bit processors for ages. Heck even Windows 2000 Server had it for addressing more than 4GB on 32bit systems... Disabled in 32 bit Windows XP, Vista and 7 but it can be enabled on 7 32bit (at a small performance cost).
As for DX11 it doesn't require 64bit at all, plus with different types of threading Eve CAN be improved but considering the performance of the client already not sure it would really be worth it.
I understand large battles may push the client to 1.8GB~ footprint or above but please remember not everything loaded in memory is addressed at the same time, some data not in use is put into swap (if not sent for garbage collection or not used or reused or leaked). For really really large battles I can see why people would push for something that can handle more; however it would only be a bottleneck if userland was out of memory plus the swap - over simplifying here but that is the general idea. Windows XP and above are very good at caching data too. There are problems with >2GB where the hard disk gets thrashed by the swap in certain situations which can cause crashing however that can be optimised under 32 bit to mitigate that.
It depends more on what your code looks like, how many cores and how many pipeline stages your processor has if you really want specific improvements to the performance of Eve. What processor extensions can the code exploit or take advantage of? Never seen the source code of Eve so can't comment on that. The main valid point from the educated posters "you CAN but why would you want to?" or "you COULD but at what benefit?" rings true.
Changing the game binaries at a core level to optimise them for 64 bit also carries risks. How would you know it is optimised properly? User testing? What about compiler bugs (which do happen)? Would this cause more bugs as it is effective changing how the code runs / works? How would the new code / compiler output interact with existing components? Changing code at a low level runs the risks of bugs / regressions / errors. Trust me if you have ever worked with ReactOS or seen the regression on how one line of exact same code compiles differently on 64 bit than 32 bit and can change the output of a variable or function. *Shudder* Even with user / regression testing with the most ideal white box unit testing problems can always creep through.
Just 2c. Understand where a lot of people are coming from regarding large battles, 64 bit is not the be all, end all solution to every problem with performance. Considering what Eve is I'ld say it is already highly optimised, yeah sure it can always be improved true; however massive jumps in lower level code or compiler changes are never a good solution to the problems. |
Fiery Taint
Distraction Techniques
14
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 13:39:00 -
[149] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:Explorer I understand what you say, however my EVE client often crashes when it goes beyond the 2GB threshold, so it is being limited by a more legacy limit, care to give some insight about this? Maybe you have a dud ram stick? I had one before xmas that would intermittently crash at high ram usage/temperatures but was passing memtest86 tests I ran post-crash. That was until I let memtest run for a full day and lo and behold the ram faults became apparent. |
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CCP Explorer
C C P C C P Alliance
1617
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 13:49:00 -
[150] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:CCP Explorer wrote:I'm coming late to this thread, but we have no plans for a 64-bit EVE Client. The EVE Universe Server is 64-bit because we need access to the extra memory but there is only need for a 64-bit EVE Client once we need more than 3 GB on Windows XP / Windows Vista 32 or 4 GB on Windows Vista/7/8 64. Otherwise refer to the replies from Tippia, they were all quite good. Explorer I understand what you say, however my EVE client often crashes when it goes beyond the 2GB threshold, so it is being limited by a more legacy limit, care to give some insight about this? Without logs and crash dumps then I can't comment. Have you filed bug reports when this happens? That would enable us to look at the problem. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Software Director | EVE Universe, EVE Online // CCP Games | @erlendur |
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1530
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 15:08:00 -
[151] - Quote
Fiery Taint wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:Explorer I understand what you say, however my EVE client often crashes when it goes beyond the 2GB threshold, so it is being limited by a more legacy limit, care to give some insight about this? Maybe you have a dud ram stick? I had one before xmas that would intermittently crash at high ram usage/temperatures but was passing memtest86 tests I ran post-crash. That was until I let memtest run for a full day and lo and behold the ram faults became apparent.
Sounds like dodgy solder. Or a short caused by expansion due to heat.
Difficult to diagnose, without an extensive soak test.
Sucky. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Spurty
897
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 18:13:00 -
[152] - Quote
8bits was enough for Jet Set Willy and Elite.
Professionally, I work with gigabyte(s) sized files and databases in machines that have bounds in the 128GB of RAM
Was good to read some of the comments here for a dose of reality :-/
--- GÇ£If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.GÇ¥ GÇò Philip K. **** |
Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
331
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 18:30:00 -
[153] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Fiery Taint wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:Explorer I understand what you say, however my EVE client often crashes when it goes beyond the 2GB threshold, so it is being limited by a more legacy limit, care to give some insight about this? Maybe you have a dud ram stick? I had one before xmas that would intermittently crash at high ram usage/temperatures but was passing memtest86 tests I ran post-crash. That was until I let memtest run for a full day and lo and behold the ram faults became apparent. Sounds like dodgy solder. Or a short caused by expansion due to heat. Difficult to diagnose, without an extensive soak test. Sucky. I though so but other 64 bit software I run on the computer dosnt have an issue, however I will try to find some blob fight to push the client and get some crash logs for this, anyone got the date of the battle of asakai? If the client stored those logs I could upload those. |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1596
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 18:36:00 -
[154] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:De'Veldrin wrote: Or they were happy they had an operating system that worked and did what they needed it to do without blowing up on them repeatedly.
Not everyone stays with an older machine due to lack of finances or a resistance to change. Some people just like **** that works when they need it to.
By now Windows XP is a horrible atrocity that should be put down to spare it further suffering. I can understand why someone would still use it, in favour of old (probably important) software that doesn't receive upgrades anymore or for lack of money or time or both. I can even understand plain old laziness. But the claim that Windows XP is still a good operating system is just plain ridiculous.
Good is a subjective measure.
If it does what they need and does it when they need it done, isn't that "good" enough? Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
269
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 18:51:00 -
[155] - Quote
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:We're not getting a 64 bit client until they get 64 bit servers...
EQ2 got them in 2009.
WoW got them around 2011.
EvE??? "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
125
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 20:11:00 -
[156] - Quote
If I don't get a 64-bit client NOW, I'm quitting EVE forever.. taking my 34641067783 alts with me!! Lost money might force them to give me my 64-bit client!!!!!!!!
/end sarcasm
The people talking about "lack of understanding of technology" are correct. Others are merely cutting and pasting stuff from google searches. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1530
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 20:22:00 -
[157] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Azami Nevinyrall wrote:We're not getting a 64 bit client until they get 64 bit servers... EQ2 got them in 2009. WoW got them around 2011. EvE???
Eve's already running on 64 bit server processes. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Mordraug Stangaferro
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 22:07:00 -
[158] - Quote
How 'bout a Linux client?
*warps off to a safe distance* |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3550
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 22:17:00 -
[159] - Quote
Klandi wrote:I personally think that the question should be - when will the client be able to used multi-cored processors efficiently. If that requires a 64bit re-write then that I'm all for. Wouldn't it be nice to specify the priority and spread of client accounts over several processors out of the launcher...
Is that even do-able?
The architecture (64bit vs 32bit) the client is written for has nothing to do with the ability to split the thread over multiple cores. Being able to split the load over multiple cores is only useful for certain applications.
As for multiple clients, your Operating System should shunt the processes around as needed to efficiently allocate processing resources. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Mordraug Stangaferro
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 22:24:00 -
[160] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Klandi wrote:I personally think that the question should be - when will the client be able to used multi-cored processors efficiently. If that requires a 64bit re-write then that I'm all for. Wouldn't it be nice to specify the priority and spread of client accounts over several processors out of the launcher...
Is that even do-able? The architecture (64bit vs 32bit) the client is written for has nothing to do with the ability to split the thread over multiple cores. Being able to split the load over multiple cores is only useful for certain applications. As for multiple clients, your Operating System should shunt the processes around as needed to efficiently allocate processing resources.
That, and there are ways and tools to assign cores to a process if you really need to crank up the performance to a near-obsessive level (nothing wrong with that, don't get me wrong heh heh heh).
For most people, a good GPU should do the job regardless of whether you're on dual or 8-core system, assuming you got the 4GB RAM done and your disk in good condition (ie: not fragmented). Also, if you can have your game on a physical disk (not partition) other than the one holding your operating system performance gains a lot.
So in short, while I 'd love a 64-bit client, it's still not really *necessary*. Odds generally are that, if you know exactly why you'd like a 64-bit client, you should be able to figure out how to hand-tweak it and your PC to run that much smoother.
(Nah, ain't tweaked mine. Runs sweet on linux + crossover with a proper 8-core system.) |
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CCP Explorer
C C P C C P Alliance
1618
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 23:27:00 -
[161] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Azami Nevinyrall wrote:We're not getting a 64 bit client until they get 64 bit servers... EQ2 got them in 2009. WoW got them around 2011. EvE??? EVE's server has been 64-bit since September 2008. If I may refer you to my devblog at the time: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve64/
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Software Director | EVE Universe, EVE Online // CCP Games | @erlendur |
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3550
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 23:41:00 -
[162] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:Azami Nevinyrall wrote:We're not getting a 64 bit client until they get 64 bit servers... EQ2 got them in 2009. WoW got them around 2011. EvE??? EVE's server has been 64-bit since September 2008. If I may refer you to my devblog at the time: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve64/
DevBlogged! This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
269
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 03:45:00 -
[163] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:Azami Nevinyrall wrote:We're not getting a 64 bit client until they get 64 bit servers... EQ2 got them in 2009. WoW got them around 2011. EvE??? EVE's server has been 64-bit since September 2008. If I may refer you to my devblog at the time: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve64/
Meanwhile...running 3x WoW clients @ 64bit.
1+1=2
RubyPorto wrote:DevBlogged!
No...WoWed. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Glathull
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
235
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 04:42:00 -
[164] - Quote
I run a windows 8 laptop with Mac OS X Mountain Lion in a Virtualbox install using Parallels to host a Windows 7 system. I run eve in the windows XP mode there. Because XP is just that awesome. And also because I wondered how it would run. To be honest, it doesn't suck as much as you might think. Aside from getting the keyboard, mouse and speakers to work through all those layers of virtualization. That can be kind of janky. To repeat, the skill split is scheduled for the big Summer 2013 expansion. ~CCP Fozzie |
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra Gallente Federation
135
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 04:47:00 -
[165] - Quote
Tippia wrote: There are plenty of 32-bit Windows SKUs that can access more than 3.5GB RAM GÇö it's all a matter of which version and license you choose. Hell, if you pick the wrong one, you get less than that as your maximum.
Interesting that. I have 4 gb of ram and upgraded to win 7 to be able to use it all and my computer can still only use 3.25 gb of the 4. And that is Win 7 64 ultimate.
My issue isn't OS based. It is the motherboard. Kind of funny. http://us.msi.com/product/mb/K8N-Diamond-Plus.html
meh oh well, at least upgrading to win 7 got rid of that annoying virus win xp is prone to that plays sound like ads and such while nothing is open. Could never catch a process popping up to cause it. craziness. My paranoid brain thought maybe it was working as intended and its a new feature to drive people to win 7 cause Ms are sick of supporting win xp =).
Edit: Additionally it states in my computer properties that I have 4gb of ram but it tells me (3.25 usable) |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3550
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 05:13:00 -
[166] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:CCP Explorer wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:Azami Nevinyrall wrote:We're not getting a 64 bit client until they get 64 bit servers... EQ2 got them in 2009. WoW got them around 2011. EvE??? EVE's server has been 64-bit since September 2008. If I may refer you to my devblog at the time: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve64/ Meanwhile...running 3x WoW clients @ 64bit. 1+1=2RubyPorto wrote:DevBlogged! No...WoWed.
You seem confused about the difference between a server and a client. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
156
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 07:54:00 -
[167] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote: Good is a subjective measure. If it does what they need and does it when they need it done, isn't that "good" enough?
It's not.
Windows XP has, and most probably always will be heavily critcised for it's security flaws and susceptibility to malware for as long as it still exists. And that will even increase once the support runs out in April 2014.
Just because Windows XP maintains some basic compatibility to downright ancient hadware or software, which never received upgrades for any of the newer Operating systems, it won't be a good operating System.
It has been good, in the past.
But not anymore.
Or in other words, just because some other **** stinks more Your own **** won't be less stinky or ******. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
269
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 08:00:00 -
[168] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:You seem confused about the difference between a server and a client.
My first computer was a kit built Timex-Sinclair back in 1983.
Were you even born then to built one?
RubyPorto wrote:Also, a 64 bit client would do very little (if anything) for an EVE client, as it doesn't use anywhere near the 4GB limit of addressable space that a 32 bit program can use... which you'd know if you'd been paying attention to the thread.
When you running 3 clients.......................
"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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CCP Explorer
C C P C C P Alliance
1621
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 08:52:00 -
[169] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Also, a 64 bit client would do very little (if anything) for an EVE client, as it doesn't use anywhere near the 4GB limit of addressable space that a 32 bit program can use... which you'd know if you'd been paying attention to the thread. When you running 3 clients....................... If you run multiple clients then each has its own addressable memory space. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Software Director | EVE Universe, EVE Online // CCP Games | @erlendur |
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3550
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 08:55:00 -
[170] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:RubyPorto wrote:You seem confused about the difference between a server and a client. My first computer was a kit built Timex-Sinclair back in 1983. Were you even born then to built one? RubyPorto wrote:Also, a 64 bit client would do very little (if anything) for an EVE client, as it doesn't use anywhere near the 4GB limit of addressable space that a 32 bit program can use... which you'd know if you'd been paying attention to the thread. When you running 3 clients.......................
When you're running 3 clients, you're running 3 separate processes and your 64 bit Operating system will take care of assigning appropriate memory space.
The fact that the Process is 32 bit limits that process and that process only to 4GB ram (it doesn't magically limit other processes of the same type). You can run 2^32 maxed out 32-bit processes without running out of addressable space on the OS.
Have you... learned anything about computers since building that Timex-Sinclair? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
10200
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 09:01:00 -
[171] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Also, a 64 bit client would do very little (if anything) for an EVE client, as it doesn't use anywhere near the 4GB limit of addressable space that a 32 bit program can use... which you'd know if you'd been paying attention to the thread. When you running 3 clients....................... If you run multiple clients then each has its own addressable memory space.
Well to be fair, it doesn't work like that on a Timex Sinclair.
1 Kings 12:11
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Jake Guido
C0VEN HOLDING COMPANY C0VEN
0
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Posted - 2013.06.19 10:28:00 -
[172] - Quote
Tuttomenui II wrote:Tippia wrote: There are plenty of 32-bit Windows SKUs that can access more than 3.5GB RAM GÇö it's all a matter of which version and license you choose. Hell, if you pick the wrong one, you get less than that as your maximum.
Interesting that. I have 4 gb of ram and upgraded to win 7 to be able to use it all and my computer can still only use 3.25 gb of the 4. And that is Win 7 64 ultimate. My issue isn't OS based. It is the motherboard. Kind of funny. http://us.msi.com/product/mb/K8N-Diamond-Plus.htmlmeh oh well, at least upgrading to win 7 got rid of that annoying virus win xp is prone to that plays sound like ads and such while nothing is open. Could never catch a process popping up to cause it. craziness. My paranoid brain thought maybe it was working as intended and its a new feature to drive people to win 7 cause Ms are sick of supporting win xp =). Edit: Additionally it states in my computer properties that I have 4gb of ram but it tells me (3.25 usable)
Just to clarify since no one responded.
Your PC is using 0.75 GB for GPU. You might be able to check this in your BIOS settings, probably set as automatic. Wouldn't recommend setting it lower though. |
Sinq Arnolles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 11:12:00 -
[173] - Quote
Maybe resource caching would benefit from 64 bit since you could then cache more stuff.. May as well use that 32GB of RAM for something...
But then again I haven't seen a difference in performance between resource caching on or off. Does it even work anymore? |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
270
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 11:15:00 -
[174] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:CCP Explorer wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Also, a 64 bit client would do very little (if anything) for an EVE client, as it doesn't use anywhere near the 4GB limit of addressable space that a 32 bit program can use... which you'd know if you'd been paying attention to the thread. When you running 3 clients....................... If you run multiple clients then each has its own addressable memory space. Well to be fair, it doesn't work like that on a Timex Sinclair.
Oh, and don't forget picking up the dev's hat on the way out, CSM. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3551
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 11:25:00 -
[175] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Malcanis wrote:CCP Explorer wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Also, a 64 bit client would do very little (if anything) for an EVE client, as it doesn't use anywhere near the 4GB limit of addressable space that a 32 bit program can use... which you'd know if you'd been paying attention to the thread. When you running 3 clients....................... If you run multiple clients then each has its own addressable memory space. Well to be fair, it doesn't work like that on a Timex Sinclair. Oh, and don't forget picking up the dev's hat on the way out, CSM.
Yep, agreeing with a Dev on a matter of objective, easily referenced fact is clear evidence of toadyism. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Dream Boat
Continuum. Infinity Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 11:32:00 -
[176] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:CCP Explorer wrote:I'm coming late to this thread, but we have no plans for a 64-bit EVE Client. The EVE Universe Server is 64-bit because we need access to the extra memory but there is only need for a 64-bit EVE Client once we need more than 3 GB on Windows XP / Windows Vista 32 or 4 GB on Windows Vista/7/8 64. Otherwise refer to the replies from Tippia, they were all quite good. Explorer I understand what you say, however my EVE client often crashes when it goes beyond the 2GB threshold, so it is being limited by a more legacy limit, care to give some insight about this?
Some older Windows OS's only allow 2GB of ram to be allocated to a 32bit application, you can fix this by adding a /3G switch into the boot.ini. This should allow upto 3GB for an application. I'd suggest you look into this for your particular version of windows to see if this could help you. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
10203
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 11:45:00 -
[177] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Malcanis wrote:CCP Explorer wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Also, a 64 bit client would do very little (if anything) for an EVE client, as it doesn't use anywhere near the 4GB limit of addressable space that a 32 bit program can use... which you'd know if you'd been paying attention to the thread. When you running 3 clients....................... If you run multiple clients then each has its own addressable memory space. Well to be fair, it doesn't work like that on a Timex Sinclair. Oh, and don't forget picking up the dev's hat on the way out, CSM.
You could have simply admitted you were in error, but nooooooo, now it's teh ebil CSM's fault you were wrong and also rude to the CSM dev who took the time to give you the correct information.
I love it when people double down on the dumb. Calling it now: you'll go for the triple.
1 Kings 12:11
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Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
270
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 12:13:00 -
[178] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: You could have simply admitted you were in error
There's nothing to admit right or wrong, since I simply wrote a few sentences. Whatever you're feeding on, isn't anything I've written in itself.
Making anthills out of molehills, I guess that's a CSM's role, huh? "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14984
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 13:25:00 -
[179] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:There's nothing to admit right or wrong, since I simply wrote a few sentences. GǪwhich suggested that running 3 clients was in any way relevant to the 32 vs 64bit client discussion. This suggestion is incorrect.
Also, my first computer was a PDP-11. Now shush. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Stonecrusher Mortlock
University of Caille Gallente Federation
157
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 13:33:00 -
[180] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Barakach wrote:1) Certain algorithms are much faster when using 64bit registers 2) 64bit mode has many more general purpose registers 3) 64bit mode has a few more SIMD registers 4) 64bit mode removes some legacy cruft and adds some extra niceties for the compiler GǪand EVE would benefit from that? Those are just generalities. What would be the benefit for EVE?
I hate to tell you but faster running algorithms, would improve the large scale fleet encounters, and a lot of other items that are math heavy, so ANY thing that can be done should be.
and that is all the reason i need to support this. |
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dexington
Dexington Corporation
668
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 13:36:00 -
[181] - Quote
My first computer what the amazing Abacus! I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14984
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 13:42:00 -
[182] - Quote
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:I hate to tell you but faster running algorithms, would improve the large scale fleet encounters, and a lot of other items that are math heavy, so ANY thing that can be done should be. GǪwhich, again, is just generalities. The question is how EVE, specifically, would benefit.
Does EVE use these GÇ£certain algorithmsGÇ¥? Does EVE need more general-purpose registers? Does EVE need more SIMD registers? Does EVE suffer from the legacy cruft or benefit from compiler niceties?
GǪand (also again) that's before we even begin to discuss the costs, such as potential loss of middleware components, loss of subscribers (or increased dev load from duplicating their efforts across two clients), increased memory footprints, etc. 64-bit may be the best thing since sliced bread, but that doesn't matter if EVE happens to be on a yoghurt-only diet and would turn inside-out and explode if you fed it some fibre. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
331
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 13:48:00 -
[183] - Quote
The fact this topic surfaced again its sorta annoying... reminds me of afk cloaking... |
Lord Ryan
Donkey Hats
816
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 13:50:00 -
[184] - Quote
Barakach wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:[quote=Khira Kitamatsu]
It's not like Eve is using anywhere near the 32 bit limits. Sub 1GB atm. 1) Certain algorithms are much faster when using 64bit registers 2) 64bit mode has many more general purpose registers 3) 64bit mode has a few more SIMD registers 4) 64bit mode removes some legacy cruft and adds some extra niceties for the compiler
Oh yeah! Well my PC is 9 inches limp, now what!
Do not assume-áanything above this line-áwas typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
|
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3551
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 14:07:00 -
[185] - Quote
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:Tippia wrote:Barakach wrote:1) Certain algorithms are much faster when using 64bit registers 2) 64bit mode has many more general purpose registers 3) 64bit mode has a few more SIMD registers 4) 64bit mode removes some legacy cruft and adds some extra niceties for the compiler GǪand EVE would benefit from that? Those are just generalities. What would be the benefit for EVE? I hate to tell you but faster running algorithms, would improve the large scale fleet encounters, and a lot of other items that are math heavy, so ANY thing that can be done should be. and that is all the reason i need to support this.
All the heavy lifting in terms of math for things like Fleet fights are done on the server (which has been 64-bit since 2008, per CCP Explorer) anyways. The whole "never trust the client" maxim is so very much in play here, and is one of the reasons the EVE client is not much of a resource hog.
Which algorithms does the EVE Client use that would run faster with 64bit registers? Arguing that "some algorithms benefit from 64-bit registers, thus EVE would benefit from 64-bit registers" is fallacious, as you have nothing to support the assertion that EVE's client uses any of those benefiting algorithms. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
952
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 14:34:00 -
[186] - Quote
The only big client-side CPU issue I seem to encounter are bracket calculations and I guess it would be worthwhile to see if any of the SSE3 or 4 instructions could help with that (I have actually no idea what I am talking about but they are all about getting more vector maths done in less instructions so they might conceivably be useful for projecting some points onto a plane) but that's not even a 64bit issue... |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
952
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 14:44:00 -
[187] - Quote
So I did some more research on this 64bit thing and came across the following graph in a devblog:
http://i.imgur.com/XhgcJMc.png
CCP, HOW CAN YOU STILL DENY US A 64BIT CLIENT WHEN 64BIT IS TWICE AS AWESOME AS 32BIT?
WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO COVER UP THIS SCIENTIFIC FACT? |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
952
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 14:48:00 -
[188] - Quote
Also WoW has 64bits. When will we finally close the bit-gap? What is CCP's agenda here? |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
193
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 14:49:00 -
[189] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Also, my first computer was a PDP-11. Now shush. Yeah, but did you build it?
Also, if you've never programmed with toggle switches or punch cards, you don't know jack.
MDD
|
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CCP Explorer
C C P C C P Alliance
1626
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 14:50:00 -
[190] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:So I did some more research on this 64bit thing and came across the following graph in a devblog: http://i.imgur.com/XhgcJMc.pngCCP, HOW CAN YOU STILL DENY US A 64BIT CLIENT WHEN 64BIT IS TWICE AS AWESOME AS 32BIT?WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO COVER UP THIS SCIENTIFIC FACT? YOUR OWN WORDS PROVE YOU WRONG, CCP EXPLORER.
The server is 64-bit and the DB is 64-bit. What is needed to have 64-bit is 64-bit.
The client is 32-bit since we need to support Windows XP, there is overhead in having two clients, some of the middleware is only available as 32-bit and there is no reason to have the client as 64-bit. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Software Director | EVE Universe, EVE Online // CCP Games | @erlendur |
|
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Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
270
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 14:51:00 -
[191] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪand (also again) that's before we even begin to discuss the costs, such as potential loss of middleware components, loss of subscribers (or increased dev load from duplicating their efforts across two clients), increased memory footprints, etc. 64-bit may be the best thing since sliced bread, but that doesn't matter if EVE happens to be on a yoghurt-only diet and would turn inside-out and explode if you fed it some fibre.
Even Blizzard told players they'll stop supporting the oldest of old videocards and OSes.
Progress is like that. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1535
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 14:52:00 -
[192] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:Tippia wrote:Also, my first computer was a PDP-11. Now shush. Yeah, but did you build it? Also, if you've never programmed with toggle switches or punch cards, you don't know jack. MDD
I know Jack.
Nice guy, as long as you don't let him drink. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14990
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 15:04:00 -
[193] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:Also WoW has 64bits. When will we finally close the bit-gap? What is CCP's agenda here? Let's see here: -+ 3DO GÇö 32bit, released 1993. Units sold: 2M. -+ Atari Jaguar GÇö 64bit, released 1993. Units sold: <250k. -+ Sony Playstation GÇö 32bit, released 1994. Units sold: 102M(!!) -+ Sega Saturn GÇö 2+ù32bit, released 1994. Units sold: 9.5M. -+ Nintendo 64 GÇö 64bit, released 1996. Units sold: 33M.
GÇ£Closing the bit gapGÇ¥ is for suckers and PR reps.
Ace Uoweme wrote:Even Blizzard told players they'll stop supporting the oldest of old videocards and OSes. So, much like CCP, then. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Kenpachi Viktor
Gradient Electus Matari
254
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 15:17:00 -
[194] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:Vera Algaert wrote:So I did some more research on this 64bit thing and came across the following graph in a devblog: http://i.imgur.com/XhgcJMc.pngCCP, HOW CAN YOU STILL DENY US A 64BIT CLIENT WHEN 64BIT IS TWICE AS AWESOME AS 32BIT?WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO COVER UP THIS SCIENTIFIC FACT? YOUR OWN WORDS PROVE YOU WRONG, CCP EXPLORER. The server is 64-bit and the DB is 64-bit. What is needed to have 64-bit is 64-bit. The client is 32-bit since we need to support Windows XP, there is overhead in having two clients, some of the middleware is only available as 32-bit and there is no reason to have the client as 64-bit.
When the high res texture pack comes out; how much additional memory usage would you recommend to expect? A war that wouldGÇÖve involved 20,000 players, 75% of nullsec space, and hundreds of supercapitals was halted not by diplomacy, but by a game mechanic so dreadful that those who have experienced it previously have no desire to do so again. - Fix POS & SOV |
Tixam Quri
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 15:21:00 -
[195] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:The fully useful lifespan of a computer used for gaming is 3 years. The fully useful lifespan of a computer not used for gaming is 5 years.
Obviously there are exceptions, but its a pretty good guideline for planning computer purchases and/or upgrades.
I have to question this since I built my wife's and my gaming rigs almost 2 years ago... and I'm already itching to go from SLI GTX560 ti's to SLI GTX780's...
I loved XP's stability over win98 too, and clung to it for years; win 7 is much faster and imo worth the upgrade..
Bring on tessellation, DX11 and have the client support older 32bit systems. Seems fair to me, but then again I'm a nurse not a programmer so I won't pretend to know what I'm talking about.
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Tixam Quri
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 15:53:00 -
[196] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:there is only need for a 64-bit EVE Client once we need more than 3 GB on Windows XP / Windows Vista 32 or 4 GB on Windows Vista/7/8 64.
Was the tessellation/physics demo from FF 2012 a teaser of things to come?
Are hi-res graphics in the pipeline?
Do you see the need for "more than 3 GB" as something in a future client version?
Many of us really want these things.
My wife says EVE looks dated, and she hates the fact that there are no physics with collidable objects/roids etc. I agree to some extent.
Overall I think the game looks good, but some scalable improvement seem reasonable. I 'll even chip in a plex or two to help fund it
I always try to give my wife what she wantsshe deserves it! |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3552
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 16:00:00 -
[197] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪand (also again) that's before we even begin to discuss the costs, such as potential loss of middleware components, loss of subscribers (or increased dev load from duplicating their efforts across two clients), increased memory footprints, etc. 64-bit may be the best thing since sliced bread, but that doesn't matter if EVE happens to be on a yoghurt-only diet and would turn inside-out and explode if you fed it some fibre. Even Blizzard told players they'll stop supporting the oldest of old videocards and OSes. Progress is like that.
Sure it is, but progress for its on sake is a useless waste of energy. So what tangible benefits do you think that a 64-bit client would bring to offset those costs?
Please keep the following in mind when you respond:
CCP Explorer wrote:The server is 64-bit and the DB is 64-bit. What is needed to have 64-bit is 64-bit.
The client is 32-bit since we need to support Windows XP, there is overhead in having two clients, some of the middleware is only available as 32-bit and there is no reason to have the client as 64-bit. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1536
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 16:17:00 -
[198] - Quote
Tixam Quri wrote:I loved XP's stability over win98 too, and clung to it for years; win 7 is much faster and imo worth the upgrade.
Just for reference: Windows 8 is absolutely fine. The start screen is a mild annoyance, but unless you have the intellect of a child, that fades within hours (it's not like you have to sit and stare at it, after all)
Everything else is an incremental upgrade on windows 7, with some good changes under the hood. Like a better implementation of ASLR Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
345
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 16:22:00 -
[199] - Quote
Wait...with CCPs history of, we'll politely say "flubbing" releases, you want them to recode the entire client to 64 bit, for no real reason.
Yeah, no thanks. Don't fix what ain't broke. Don't worry miners, I'm here to help!
|
KardelSharpeye
Aliastra Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 16:28:00 -
[200] - Quote
Tixam Quri wrote:CCP Explorer wrote:there is only need for a 64-bit EVE Client once we need more than 3 GB on Windows XP / Windows Vista 32 or 4 GB on Windows Vista/7/8 64. Was the tessellation/physics demo from FF 2012 a teaser of things to come? Are hi-res graphics in the pipeline? Do you see the need for "more than 3 GB" as something in a future client version? Many of us really want these things. My wife says EVE looks dated, and she hates the fact that there are no physics with collidable objects/roids etc. I agree to some extent. Overall I think the game looks good, but some scalable improvement seem reasonable. I 'll even chip in a plex or two to help fund it I always try to give my wife what she wants she deserves it!
I find the graphics to be pretty good, the physics though have nothing to do with the client the whole simulation is entirely server side the reason you get weird bounces (even considering EVE is underwater) is because the ships are just spheres in the server's simulation. |
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CCP Explorer
C C P C C P Alliance
1630
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 17:35:00 -
[201] - Quote
Today's devblog, New system requirements for EVE (feedback thread), might be of interest to the readers of this thread.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Software Director | EVE Universe, EVE Online // CCP Games | @erlendur |
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Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
2533
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 17:39:00 -
[202] - Quote
In before relic computer user tears.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Vestor
Magma Planetary Investigation
9
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 22:10:00 -
[203] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote: In before relic computer user tears.
I am very disappointed because my computer is still not obsolete now. I need an i7@5Ghz with 16GB ram requirement (Also Quad SLI d'oh), so I can justify an upgrade :( "... the what button... oh god I didn't even know that existed. BRB." CCP FoxFour | Game Designer | Team True Grit |
Khira Kitamatsu
644
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 00:43:00 -
[204] - Quote
Does this mean why might see new shinies? Custom corp decals for ships and maybe paint schemes, too? Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15026
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 00:52:00 -
[205] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Does this mean why might see new shinies? Custom corp decals for ships and maybe paint schemes, too? No, it means they can't really test anything older than that right now because :effort: New shinies will happen regardless.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
274
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 21:43:00 -
[206] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:There's nothing to admit right or wrong, since I simply wrote a few sentences. GǪwhich suggested that running 3 clients was in any way relevant to the 32 vs 64bit client discussion. This suggestion is incorrect. Also, my first computer was a PDP-11. Now shush.
Huh?
Suggestion?
You guys are reading into things that never was written.
Perhaps it's better to pull back from the agendas and read things as is, and not make up things, instead.
"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3553
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 00:43:00 -
[207] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Tippia wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:There's nothing to admit right or wrong, since I simply wrote a few sentences. GǪwhich suggested that running 3 clients was in any way relevant to the 32 vs 64bit client discussion. This suggestion is incorrect. Also, my first computer was a PDP-11. Now shush. Huh? Suggestion? You guys are reading into things that never was written. Perhaps it's better to pull back from the agendas and read things as is, and not make up things, instead. Ace Uoweme wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Also, a 64 bit client would do very little (if anything) for an EVE client, as it doesn't use anywhere near the 4GB limit of addressable space that a 32 bit program can use... which you'd know if you'd been paying attention to the thread. When you running 3 clients.......................
Ahem.
To paraphrase: Ruby: The EVE Client doesn't use anywhere near the 4GB addressable by a 32bit client and so would not benefit from being remade into a 64bit program. Ace: When running 3 clients something happens to make the above false, so I will roll my internet pixel eyes at you. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
275
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 04:04:00 -
[208] - Quote
Still arguing over nothing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_identification
Not very smart or wise.
You're trying to frame the discussion to what YOU think it meant.
You don't put words in other people's mouths, then falsely claim it's A or B. That's where you guys are wrong (and always will be wrong). So busy trying to frame the discussion over your agendas, to see even reality.
The fault? You're dinosaurs protecting turf. Same dinosaurs that drive games into the ground. 500k worth, while the elephant in the room enjoys 8 million.
...Says more about who's right and what works with proof... "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Kewso
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 04:15:00 -
[209] - Quote
Just imagine what Eve would look like in 64 bits?!?!
It would be like upgrading from Super Nintendo to Nintendo 64!!! OMG!
DO EEET!#@!# |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3555
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 04:18:00 -
[210] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:
You're trying to frame the discussion to what YOU think it meant.
Ok, so what did you mean? Keep in mind that it is quite normal and accepted to assume that comments are actually on topic, so saying "I meant 'when running three clients the moon is made of cheese'" isn't going to cut it. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
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Toshiroma McDiesel
Lupus Draconis Dragehund
126
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 04:32:00 -
[211] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Tixam Quri wrote:I loved XP's stability over win98 too, and clung to it for years; win 7 is much faster and imo worth the upgrade.
Just for reference: Windows 8 is absolutely fine. The start screen is a mild annoyance, but unless you have the intellect of a child, that fades within hours (it's not like you have to sit and stare at it, after all) Everything else is an incremental upgrade on windows 7, with some good changes under the hood. Like a better implementation of ASLR
Dude, your partially talking to people that have been complaining the last two weeks about not being able to work a login screen. Throwing something highly advanced and super computer complex like Windows 8 at them is just way too much to ask I"m not really the Evil One, I'm just his answering service. |
dexington
Dexington Corporation
669
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 08:28:00 -
[212] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Ruby: The EVE Client doesn't use anywhere near the 4GB addressable by a 32bit client and so would not benefit from being remade into a 64bit program.
On windows system you should not expect 32 bit application to be able to allocate 4GB of memory, default compile options would normally limit a 32 bit process to 2GB address space, when running on a 64 bit windows system.
It depends on IMAGE_FILE_LARGE_ADDRESS_AWARE being set or not, and i think it's disabled by default. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
323
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 23:34:00 -
[213] - Quote
I have removed some of topic and troll posts. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.
ISD Ezwal Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Asptar Monastair
Adventurers
17
|
Posted - 2013.06.23 16:25:00 -
[214] - Quote
Is this bit deficiency the reason we don't have HQ textures yet? Would the client need to herd in more rams than available? |
Prestb
Sloth Team Six
15
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 03:22:00 -
[215] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Victoria Sin wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Let me put it this way, other MMO's, ones older than EVE Online offer 64bit versions of the game. That means people that cannot run 64bit can still run 32bit, but those with the ability to run the 64bit can. Look at WoW as an example. Back when the first introduced 64bit I and many millions of other players saw a huge jump in game performance by moving to 64bit client. That is all I am asking for here. Is the ability to fully utilize what my machine is capable of doing. For anyone to say that we would not see improvements in this game is just being silly - especially if CCP wrote the code to optimize the use of a 64bit system.
Then they could release a DX11, tessellation and better physics to those of us that can make use of it. All I wish to see is EVE grow into a more robust and enriching game experience and environment. As it is now CCP is tied to the fact that some people refuse to upgrade their gaming rigs and or OS's. How is that fair to the hundreds of thousands that have decent up-to-date gaming rigs?
Plooooooooeeeeeeeeeaaasse. This is either a lie, or a kind-of placebo effect. Or, other changes were made in that client. It would be remarkably silly that simply moving from 32 to 64 bit, all else being equal (except the size of your pointers, which are twice as large) would give you a performance boost. With respect to tessellation... no. You've either got to go all-in with one or the other, but not both. Why? In order to do it properly, you'll need two pipelines of art assets. That's very expensive to produce and support. And... Eve has Physics? That's a bit of a shock to be honest. Where? Look, you just don't understand. Currently, we have this many bits: ............................. And we COULD have THIS many bits: ........................................................ Do you not see how the latter is better in every conceivable way? The fact that they haven't already given us the extra bits we deserve is frankly indicative of gross negligence (or possibly even a bit-hoarding conspiracy) on CCP's part.
Moar bits! |
Haulie Berry
1096
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Posted - 2013.06.25 15:32:00 -
[216] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote: My first computer was a kit built Timex-Sinclair back in 1983.
.....
When you running 3 clients.......................
So, the one thing we can positively ascertain from this post is that being able to assemble a computer from kit doesn't magically imbue one with basic knowledge of computing.
If you're running three separate clients, each independent process is going to have its own block of independently addressed memory. Three clients will use more memory from the system (in which case, having a 64 bit OS and plenty of RAM could be of value), but no individual client will use any more memory than it would while a single client was running.
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Eugene Spencer
Appetite 4 Destruction
171
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Posted - 2013.06.25 15:50:00 -
[217] - Quote
I just read this thread and approve of the *****-slapping of people who don't know what they are talking about. I have a specific comb for my beard. |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1627
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Posted - 2013.06.25 16:36:00 -
[218] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Also, a 64 bit client would do very little (if anything) for an EVE client, as it doesn't use anywhere near the 4GB limit of addressable space that a 32 bit program can use... which you'd know if you'd been paying attention to the thread. When you running 3 clients.......................
The amount of fail in this is so staggering I actually had to decide if you were trolling.
I decided you were serious - which, in retrospect, is not necessarily a good thing. Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
546
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Posted - 2013.06.25 18:20:00 -
[219] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Azami Nevinyrall wrote:We're not getting a 64 bit client until they get 64 bit servers... Ummm...the servers are 64bit. Have been for some time now. In fact I recall they have been since 2008.
Details details, require paying attention. Just ask Lady Spankypoodles |
Xeraphi
The Gun Runners
56
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Posted - 2013.06.25 19:19:00 -
[220] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:[quote=Tippia]Personally I think it is silly the CCP's is letting the hands be tide be a group of players that refuse to upgrade their gaming rigs. I think it is the onus of the players to keep up with the requirements of the game and not the developers to maintain old tech just to appease these hold-outs.
How much do you want to bet that the people who "refuse" to upgrade their rigs would love to if you handed them the money to do it? Or in some cases imported the parts to do it?
Entitlement much? "I can afford to upgrade my computer every year so games must cater to MEEEEEE!" [url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=245931[/url] [url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243517[/url] Temporary workaround found to one of these. |
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Morgwen Dubh
Methana Industries
2
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Posted - 2013.06.26 15:28:00 -
[221] - Quote
Xeraphi wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:[quote=Tippia]Personally I think it is silly the CCP's is letting the hands be tide be a group of players that refuse to upgrade their gaming rigs. I think it is the onus of the players to keep up with the requirements of the game and not the developers to maintain old tech just to appease these hold-outs. How much do you want to bet that the people who "refuse" to upgrade their rigs would love to if you handed them the money to do it? Or in some cases imported the parts to do it? Entitlement much? "I can afford to upgrade my computer every year so games must cater to MEEEEEE!"
Get a job hippie! I kid I kid... |
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