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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 20 post(s) |

amego
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Posted - 2005.11.09 14:43:00 -
[421]
someone please programme the Cyberdyne Systems model 101, send him back and fix this mess. i will escrow clothes, boots and motorcycle in JITA  and i'm sure this time i can get him some phased plasma 
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.11.09 14:46:00 -
[422]
Originally by: ElweSingollo CCP are not descriminating here they have merely banned the name cause it was brought to there attention that the name "is in violation of the EULA" how unclear is that?
Except that CCP have worked in conjunction with 4S in the past, and so they were fully aware of the name prior to the petition, but felt no urge to change it then. ______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |

Sperril
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:01:00 -
[423]
Originally by: Juan Andalusian
Originally by: Sperril Waaaah waaaah! I can't have my corp name the way I waaaant it! WAAAAAAAAHH!!
Grow up. 
Imagine how ridiculous the guy who goes Waaah Waaah about the corp name of other corps is then.
He is far far far less ridiculous. He complained privately to CCP. He didn't affect, in any way, the players who weren't somehow tied to the corps in question. I happen to disagree with the original person who complained and got this ball rolling, but I'm able to have a well-reasoned debate about why the name should, or should not be changed.
In my opinion, it displays a small lack of maturity to petition CCP because one is offended by the 4S name. It displays a massive lack of maturity to behave the way 4S did. The two actions aren't even remotely comparable.
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Oohwha Schipperman
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:05:00 -
[424]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: ElweSingollo CCP are not descriminating here they have merely banned the name cause it was brought to there attention that the name "is in violation of the EULA" how unclear is that?
Except that CCP have worked in conjunction with 4S in the past, and so they were fully aware of the name prior to the petition, but felt no urge to change it then.
It is possible to be aware of a name without also being aware of its significance.
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:10:00 -
[425]
Originally by: Oohwha Schipperman
It is possible to be aware of a name without also being aware of its significance.
Which would indicate that the term 4S is not generally found to be offensive, otherwise CCP would have noticed, right?
Maybe they would do well to read your sig. ______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |

Oohwha Schipperman
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:10:00 -
[426]
Originally by: Aelius Can someone please post some screenshots over 4S shuttle lag attack in Jita?
If what is saied its true i'm backing up on my protest, they (4S) simply don't deserve my concern and support.
One thing is to protest in a ordely manner, not affecting your fellow player, another is to ruin the game for everyone.
Regards
Here's a couple of links I copied from an earlier thread:
Gate
Station
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JoCool
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:19:00 -
[427]
Forward 4S, stay firm. 
Greets from Germany.
@ Eris What about the G(erman) Alliance? I'd like to see what happens if you change their name. They'd stomp not just the node of Jita, but erase entire Caldari empire space for days.
So give 4S their name back.
_______________________________________________________________________ Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool |

Navdaq
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:28:00 -
[428]
I think it should be pretty clear to everyone at this point as to why you shouldn't bring real world politics into this game. No matter which side you take the anger generated can ruin the fun for everybody.
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ElweSingollo
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:37:00 -
[429]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: ElweSingollo CCP are not descriminating here they have merely banned the name cause it was brought to there attention that the name "is in violation of the EULA" how unclear is that?
Except that CCP have worked in conjunction with 4S in the past, and so they were fully aware of the name prior to the petition, but felt no urge to change it then.
Yes Avon but you are assuming that they knew exactly what 4S meant at the time they were working whith them I refer to Keirons on reply to his Devblog which rather suggest that until it was brought to there attention via petition they did not know the significance of it once they are made awar of that fact then by there own EULA rules they have to act on it.
kieron 2005.11.08 16:02:31 The catalyst for 4S' name change came as the result of some web research. SAS has not been referred to in the documents of any war crime tribunals. 4S has been referred to in numerous war crime tribunal documents, associated with Radovan Karadzic and atrocities commited by those under his command.
The survivors of that war have the right to not be reminded of what happened.
Maximum signature size exceeded. Maximum size is 400*120 and 24000 bytes. - Teblin <--- Oops been a bad boy :D
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:41:00 -
[430]
Originally by: ElweSingollo
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: ElweSingollo CCP are not descriminating here they have merely banned the name cause it was brought to there attention that the name "is in violation of the EULA" how unclear is that?
Except that CCP have worked in conjunction with 4S in the past, and so they were fully aware of the name prior to the petition, but felt no urge to change it then.
Yes Avon but you are assuming that they knew exactly what 4S meant at the time they were working whith them I refer to Keirons on reply to his Devblog which rather suggest that until it was brought to there attention via petition they did not know the significance of it once they are made awar of that fact then by there own EULA rules they have to act on it.
kieron 2005.11.08 16:02:31 The catalyst for 4S' name change came as the result of some web research. SAS has not been referred to in the documents of any war crime tribunals. 4S has been referred to in numerous war crime tribunal documents, associated with Radovan Karadzic and atrocities commited by those under his command.
The survivors of that war have the right to not be reminded of what happened.
Should we enumerate the human rights violation of CCP?
You know, the Chinese Communist Party?
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:42:00 -
[431]
Only the losers end up in war crimes tribunals.
The point I was making is that the term "4S" is not generally considered offensive, otherwise CCP would have already picked up on it.
It isn't like the SAS haven't had their fair share of criminal prosecutions. ______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |

Summersnow
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:44:00 -
[432]
Originally by: JoCool What about the G(erman) Alliance? I'd like to see what happens if you change their name. They'd stomp not just the node of Jita, but erase entire Caldari empire space for days.
So give 4S their name back.
This is exactly the reason 4s can not get there name back.
They can not be allowed to benefit from commiting a terrorist type attack against the entire playerbase to protest having there name changed because it was related to a terrorist organization.
If in fact they intentionally tried to nuke the server at this point CCP may have no option other to permaban the entire corp to set an example to prevent any future such nonsense.
This is the problem with terrorist type activities, once you go to that extreme you leave no room for anything but extreme response in return.
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Darkenral
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:52:00 -
[433]
Yep totally agree w/that Summersnow.
Dark
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:55:00 -
[434]
Edited by: Avon on 09/11/2005 15:56:04
Originally by: Summersnow
Originally by: JoCool What about the G(erman) Alliance? I'd like to see what happens if you change their name. They'd stomp not just the node of Jita, but erase entire Caldari empire space for days.
So give 4S their name back.
This is exactly the reason 4s can not get there name back.
They can not be allowed to benefit from commiting a terrorist type attack against the entire playerbase to protest having there name changed because it was related to a terrorist organization.
If in fact they intentionally tried to nuke the server at this point CCP may have no option other to permaban the entire corp to set an example to prevent any future such nonsense.
This is the problem with terrorist type activities, once you go to that extreme you leave no room for anything but extreme response in return.
Yeah, except that response would confirm the claims made against CCP, leading to further action. What is needed is a step back from the brink.
What CCP need to do is clearly define the policy here, and the process involved. They need to reassure the playerbase that name changes will only be made if the name is seen as reasonably likely to cause real offence to the general public. They need to state that the level of offence will be decided by a panel after consulting with the parties involved, with a majority verdict to decide the case. If requested, either or both parties should be able to put their case to each-other in front of said panel. They need to set forth an appeals procedure, and clearly state the process involved there also. Then they need to reverse these name changes and then put their new policy in place.
This situation can be salvaged, but a little diplomacy is called for.
Speaking of which, where is Kieron? ______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |

Trooper B99
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Posted - 2005.11.09 16:03:00 -
[435]
Originally by: Avon
Speaking of which, where is Kieron?
Awake and posting and probably staying as far away fom these threads as he can until CCP comes up with something officially placiating to say. 
Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.11.09 16:04:00 -
[436]
Originally by: Trooper B99
Originally by: Avon
Speaking of which, where is Kieron?
Awake and posting and probably staying as far away fom these threads as he can until CCP comes up with something officially placiating to say. 
 ______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |

ElweSingollo
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Posted - 2005.11.09 16:11:00 -
[437]
Edited by: ElweSingollo on 09/11/2005 16:16:29
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: ElweSingollo
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: ElweSingollo CCP are not descriminating here they have merely banned the name cause it was brought to there attention that the name "is in violation of the EULA" how unclear is that?
Except that CCP have worked in conjunction with 4S in the past, and so they were fully aware of the name prior to the petition, but felt no urge to change it then.
Yes Avon but you are assuming that they knew exactly what 4S meant at the time they were working whith them I refer to Keirons on reply to his Devblog which rather suggest that until it was brought to there attention via petition they did not know the significance of it once they are made awar of that fact then by there own EULA rules they have to act on it.
kieron 2005.11.08 16:02:31 The catalyst for 4S' name change came as the result of some web research. SAS has not been referred to in the documents of any war crime tribunals. 4S has been referred to in numerous war crime tribunal documents, associated with Radovan Karadzic and atrocities commited by those under his command.
The survivors of that war have the right to not be reminded of what happened.
Should we enumerate the human rights violation of CCP?
You know, the Chinese Communist Party?
Totally different mate CCP stands for Crowd Control Productions whereas from what I have seen the 4S corporations arguments they are admiting that there corp name is a a reference to the nationalistic symbol of the Serbian people which has also been "dirtied" in the sense of it's use by people commiting war crimes. You are being simplistic in the extreme.
Originally by: Avon Only the losers end up in war crimes tribunals.
The point I was making is that the term "4S" is not generally considered offensive, otherwise CCP would have already picked up on it.
It isn't like the SAS haven't had their fair share of criminal prosecutions.
Umm can you detail me the list of war crimes tribunal's involving the SAS Avon if you are going down that route?
Edit: Just reread what you are saying that is completely wrong at the moment Ariel Sharon [sp?] is being indited on war crimes your telling me he is a looser when he has the full backing of the US government?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1664443.stm
Maximum signature size exceeded. Maximum size is 400*120 and 24000 bytes. - Teblin <--- Oops been a bad boy :D
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.11.09 16:13:00 -
[438]
Originally by: ElweSingollo
Originally by: Avon Only the losers end up in war crimes tribunals.
The point I was making is that the term "4S" is not generally considered offensive, otherwise CCP would have already picked up on it.
It isn't like the SAS haven't had their fair share of criminal prosecutions.
Umm can you detail me the list of war crimes tribunal's involving the SAS Avon if you are going down that route?
You want to go over my post and try to understand it? I can't list war crimes tribunals involving the SAS, because they haven't been on the losing side. If however you would like a list of criminal charges raised against them I could oblige. ______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |

YodaMasterJedi
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Posted - 2005.11.09 16:15:00 -
[439]
Originally by: Spaja Saist Well if it's any consolation a lot of 4S players were canceling their accounts anyway. And I personally blame CCP for this fiasco.
Good Riddance ASSHATS!! Don't let the door hit you in ass on the way out.
Pure scumbags, each and everyone of you!!
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ermo
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Posted - 2005.11.09 16:16:00 -
[440]
Quote:
Originally by: Avon Only the losers end up in war crimes tribunals.
The point I was making is that the term "4S" is not generally considered offensive, otherwise CCP would have already picked up on it.
It isn't like the SAS haven't had their fair share of criminal prosecutions.
Umm can you detail me the list of war crimes tribunal's involving the SAS Avon if you are going down that route?
Try just for one example the SAS shootings on Gibraltor at the BP garage which was a massive news story and involved court trials.
2004.06.12 23:05:27combatYour Neutron Blaster Cannon I perfectly strikes ********** wrecking for 1056.5 damage.
http://eve.outro.org http://cda.stylii.com |

Avon
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Posted - 2005.11.09 16:25:00 -
[441]
Originally by: YodaMasterJedi Edited by: YodaMasterJedi on 09/11/2005 16:18:16 Edited by: YodaMasterJedi on 09/11/2005 16:17:38
Originally by: Spaja Saist Well if it's any consolation a lot of 4S players were canceling their accounts anyway. And I personally blame CCP for this fiasco.
Good Riddance ASSHATS!! Don't let the door hit you in ass on the way out.
Pure scumbags, each and everyone of you!!
Who on earth ever gave you the right to DOS CCP and cause our gameplay to be ruined??
Aw, poor baby.        ______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |

Fooball
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Posted - 2005.11.09 16:46:00 -
[442]
Originally by: Avon
Who are you to decide what is reasonable or legitimate gameplay? Jita is always lagging, I avoid it because I don't like having to wait 10 minutes to go through a gate. What's wrong with dumping shuttles? Is dropping one shuttle unreasonable? Or two? Maybe five? What's next, limit agent runners to 4 cruise missiles in space at any one time?
Who is to decide? The staff. What's important? Intent. It can be shown. If not shown accurately then by an expert evaluation. I'm not the expert. Nor would be he. Nor would you be. Try to figure out who it could be.
Anyways. There's this thing called common sense. I don't know if it applies where you live (at least it often doesn't seem to apply in a few countries) but it's one of the best inventions since sliced bread.
A few hundred shuttles goes past the line by any sane definition.
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BlackDog Rackh'am
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Posted - 2005.11.09 16:52:00 -
[443]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: ElweSingollo
Originally by: Avon Only the losers end up in war crimes tribunals.
The point I was making is that the term "4S" is not generally considered offensive, otherwise CCP would have already picked up on it.
It isn't like the SAS haven't had their fair share of criminal prosecutions.
Umm can you detail me the list of war crimes tribunal's involving the SAS Avon if you are going down that route?
You want to go over my post and try to understand it? I can't list war crimes tribunals involving the SAS, because they haven't been on the losing side. If however you would like a list of criminal charges raised against them I could oblige.
I agree 100% with Avon. At some obscure point in history a British officer could possibly be leading a charge to beat up or even shoot Hindu people demonstrating under Ghandi's leadership,while shouting "God save the King/Queen". Nobody finds that offensive though,it's a British motto. Why should offensive nature for similar comments be determined by your country/ancestry?
The fact that players from western countries can fly their colors and wave their banner in game to identify as a community (which is good and helps with corp recruitment),while people who have been under the bombs cannot is discrimination. If 4S is offensive because some people killed their neighbours while carrying it on their flag,then EVERYTHING should be offensive to some players because of past dealings and wars in RL.
It's true that only those who lose face war tribunals,so don't make a case out of it please. Admiral Doenitz (WWII german commander of the submarine fleet) stood trial after the war for his crews sinking neutral ships,even though it is terribly difficult to identify a ship in the storms of the Atlantic without surfacing and getting close,which amounted to pure suicide.
On the other hand, Sir Arthut Harris (leader of the Royal Air Force Bomber Command) who willingly and knowingly send his crews out to devastate residential areas in Germany to "break their morale",resulting in hundreds of thousands dead civilians, didn't face a single charge. This man however,along with the leader of the US 8th Air Force,where directly responsible for the obliteration of Dresden,a city with no strategic value,full of historical monuments and refugees. Dresden was bombed for 2 days,by Americans during the day and British during the night,and at some point the fighters escorting the bombers were ordered to attack the refugee columns with machine gun fire. The reason? Dresden lay in the path of the advancing Soviet army and with WWII coming to an end they wanted to show muscle to the Soviets in preparation for the cold war.
This is all such a big mix up that it truly advocates what people with a cool head say: "Keep RL politics out of my game!" For your information,it's not only the Serbs who commited war crimes in Yugoslavia,so why single them out? I have seen people with Croatian and Bosnian flags in their bio,should we petition them to change it too because it will remind the Serbs of the other's war crimes?
If we want to go down this path,then each and every reference to RL countries,origin or cultural and religious ancestry must be eliminated from the game. Otherwise,we're just discriminating against Serb players.
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Paul Castrin
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Posted - 2005.11.09 16:53:00 -
[444]
Originally by: Avon What CCP need to do is clearly define the policy here, and the process involved. They need to reassure the playerbase that name changes will only be made if the name is seen as reasonably likely to cause real offence to the general public. They need to state that the level of offence will be decided by a panel after consulting with the parties involved, with a majority verdict to decide the case. If requested, either or both parties should be able to put their case to each-other in front of said panel. They need to set forth an appeals procedure, and clearly state the process involved there also.
Agreed!
The EULA quoted so many times does not firmly establish the ground rules for BOTH characters and corp names. It focuses mostly on character names where a change only affects one person. More care must be taken and a clear method of review outlined for corp names and the petitioning of same. This should NOT be put in the hands of a single GM (assuming that is the case and statements by CCP seem to imply this) but instead should be by a "tribunal" of those in CCP.
To leave the system as is only leaves the game open to further problems of the likes of which we have seen in the last 24 hours.
Originally by: Avon
Then they need to reverse these name changes and then put their new policy in place.
I don't agree here though for two reasons:
1) 4S is now linked to what amounts to a terrorist act. Regardless if their acts ultimately caused a crash or not that was there intent. Would be bombers irl are treated the same. It's not only the act but the planning of said act even if it failed that is criminal.
2) Should they put in place a system as outlined then 4S can appeal and should be allowed to IMHO. This would be a partial reversal to the stated stand of CCP and allow all to see how an appeal would work. If 4S truly truly feels they want to continue in EVE then they must show contrition and a willingness to work within the system, especially in light of their recent actions.
People on all side of this have been wronged here. Diplomacy is the act of finding compromise so it's about time that 4S (and those that support them) and CCP sit down and find a common ground. Enough with the claims of "racism" and "bigotry"! Those using such to incite others are not helping anyone and the 2 parties that are the focus of all this (and the ones that are in a position to come to an agreement) need time to cool off and sit down.
Peace.
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babyblue
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Posted - 2005.11.09 16:58:00 -
[445]
Originally by: ermo
Try just for one example the SAS shootings on Gibraltar at the BP (ok it was a shell) garage which was a massive news story and involved court trials.
Yes the SAS have been involved in shootings that were technically `illegal'; ie. it is not legal to execute someone without a trial - come to think of it, it isn't legal to execute someone period in this country (and most of europe). I'm sure the "enemy combatants" in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc. scream `illegal' when they are aiming their bread knives at the throats of kidnapped plumbers.
However, desperate times call for desperate measures: the incident in question was a mistake - the Spanish authorities subsequently found the explosive device that intelligence said was on the victim, at another location. The purpose of the action was to prevent detonation of said device. At the time it was contraversial, although these days with the hightened terror threat it is probably less so. Bear in mind that in a democracy people can be held responsible for such actions and also remember that this may or may not include criminal legal actions. It is nothing to do with "victors justice".
Having said all this, I have seen characters with morally dubious names: Arkan being one such that I found morally reprehensible. Petition it? I'm quite happy in knowing I hold the moral high ground. I don't feel the need to force my opinions on others.
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Sc0rpion
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Posted - 2005.11.09 17:11:00 -
[446]
Was it a "mistake" when the SAS was implicated in the bombing of the Qala-i-Janghi detention facility in November 2001, killing 448 prisoners of war?
Sorry to shatter your illusions, but the SAS is every bit as dirty as every other military force that has ever existed.
"The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously."
-Freidrich Nietzche |

Nadar
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Posted - 2005.11.09 17:12:00 -
[447]
Originally by: Paul Castrin
1) 4S is now linked to what amounts to a terrorist act. Regardless if their actions ultimately caused a crash or not that was their intent. Would be bombers irl are treated the same. It's not only the act but the planning of said act even if it failed that is criminal.
You said terrorists? Let's call Mr. Bush!
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Sc0rpion
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Posted - 2005.11.09 17:13:00 -
[448]
Originally by: Nadar
Originally by: Paul Castrin
1) 4S is now linked to what amounts to a terrorist act. Regardless if their actions ultimately caused a crash or not that was their intent. Would be bombers irl are treated the same. It's not only the act but the planning of said act even if it failed that is criminal.
You said terrorists? Let's call Mr. Bush!
Don't even joke about that. The way British and US law are written, you could make a case for it.
"The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously."
-Freidrich Nietzche |

Nadar
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Posted - 2005.11.09 17:17:00 -
[449]
Originally by: Sc0rpion
Originally by: Nadar
Originally by: Paul Castrin
1) 4S is now linked to what amounts to a terrorist act. Regardless if their actions ultimately caused a crash or not that was their intent. Would be bombers irl are treated the same. It's not only the act but the planning of said act even if it failed that is criminal.
You said terrorists? Let's call Mr. Bush!
Don't even joke about that. The way British and US law are written, you could make a case for it.
Too bad I'm not american or british then :)
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Dionysus Davinci
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Posted - 2005.11.09 17:25:00 -
[450]
Originally by: Nadar
Originally by: Sc0rpion
Originally by: Nadar
Originally by: Paul Castrin
1) 4S is now linked to what amounts to a terrorist act. Regardless if their actions ultimately caused a crash or not that was their intent. Would be bombers irl are treated the same. It's not only the act but the planning of said act even if it failed that is criminal.
You said terrorists? Let's call Mr. Bush!
Don't even joke about that. The way British and US law are written, you could make a case for it.
Too bad I'm not american or british then :)
The servers are in London though, typically then UK would try to exordite you since the 'law of the land' is usually where the server is located.
For example, you can't send a mail bomb to spain and scream you're not a Spanish citzen so naner naner you can't me. Wrong, they would just try to exerdite you.
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