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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Luscius Uta
Unleashed' Fury Forsaken Federation
44
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Posted - 2013.07.08 12:12:00 -
[391] - Quote
just like most people here, there's some changes that I like and some I don't. I don't see a reason to change names of Electronics and Engineering skills, unless you want to change names of Electronics and Egineering T3 subsystems as well (since some of them will increase CPU and powergrid, just like parent skill). However, some skill names, such as Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing, are inaccurate and should be changed (my advice on new name is "Drone Networking"). I also welcome moving WU and AWU out of Gunnery group. Rigs and subsystems could be placed in the same group as those two (I would call it "Spaceship Upgrades"), along with some fitting-related skills such as Energy Grid Upgrades and Electronics Upgrades.
That's just my 2 cents :) |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
190
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Posted - 2013.07.08 12:15:00 -
[392] - Quote
WU is an cpu skill in effect so should be in electronics
AWU is an pg grid upgrade in effect so should be in engineering Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
TharOkha
0asis Group
541
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Posted - 2013.07.08 19:00:00 -
[393] - Quote
Everything sounds OK but please DO NOT RENAME SPACESHIP COMMAND to spaceship piloting for god sake GÇ£If reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥ |
Miss Mass
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2013.07.08 19:31:00 -
[394] - Quote
Add me to the list of people who don't understand why you're doing this. If the intention is to make it easier for new players to find the skills they need to train, there are two problems with this exercise:
1) The first, as many have pointed out, is that your new categorization scheme makes certain choices that are just as arbitrary or non-intuitive as some in the old scheme. Most likely any scheme that you come up with is going to contain some such choices.
2) The second is that there are many skills guides out there that are publicly available, and countless more that are corporation-specific. When you check in your proposed changes, you'll instantly obsolete all of that material that many new players use. You're creating work for all of the people who maintain wikis, as well as the folks who volunteer their time to produce tools for the EVE community.
For those of us who don't always equate "change" with "new and improved", it would be helpful to hear more of the motivation for a change when it's initially proposed. E.g. "we get 200 petitions a week about this problem" or "surveys consistently show that users are confused" or "the CSM forwarded complaints". In the absence of that, it's often easier to see the disruptive effects of the change as opposed to the benefits, which in this case aren't obvious, at least to me. |
Abishai
56
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Posted - 2013.07.08 20:22:00 -
[395] - Quote
Terrible
1) The new category names are weak at best. Come on.... Spaceship Piloting....
2) The new groupings are based on your ideas of what skills are needed for a specific task, not on how they affect the ship itself. Get out of my sandbox.
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Zane Tekitsu
D.I.C.A.D. Solutions
32
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Posted - 2013.07.08 20:56:00 -
[396] - Quote
The skill set seemed to be pretty good where it was. At the worst, neural influences could be in their own section. |
BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
290
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Posted - 2013.07.08 21:14:00 -
[397] - Quote
I think most are VERY logical
HOWEVER - WTF is the point of changing SPACESHIP COMMAND ?
Not only does it sound silly, it just isn't correct on a technical level. Piloting and command are two different things.
I do not simply pilot the craft like some low-level officer at the CON, I command it.
+1 To almost everything -1 to changing Spaceship Command to Pilot. -1 Targeting (name change is also a bit non-sensical)
That is just silly and completely unravels te rest of the renaming logic Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille Gallente Federation
32
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Posted - 2013.07.08 21:59:00 -
[398] - Quote
Makari Aeron wrote:Ohes noes, CCP has changed the names and grouping of skills that make my internet spaceship pixels have more oomph. I must emo rage about it!!1ONE11!! (There was a severe lack of emo rage in this thread so I had to add some even if it was fake. My only complaint is that Spaceship Piloting sounds "weaker" than Spaceship Command)
On a real ship. The commander utters commands, and the pilot turns the wheel. You mean I'm getting demoted? I like command better. Watch this space.-á New exciting signature in development. |
Ryelek d'Entari
The 4th Legion Here Be Dragons
90
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Posted - 2013.07.08 22:17:00 -
[399] - Quote
TBQFH, nobody really cares about the group names, but the skill names themselves are important to us.
Don't rename the iconic Engineering and Electronics skills. At a minimum you'll be instantly invalidating 10 years' worth of guides and reference material, much of which is in your very own wiki (or are you going to troll through every page which references 'Engineering V' in text and update it? Good luck with that...)
Furthermore, you're not being very consistent here: the 'Corporation Management', 'Drones', 'Gunnery', 'Leadership', 'Social', 'Science', 'Trade' and 'Navigation' skills are still named the same as their respective groups. So don't change Spaceship Command or Engineering (or Electronics), that's just silly renaming for silly renaming's sake.
Skills which do deserve renames because their original names are weird
- Multitasking --> "Advanced Targeting" (alternately, name the targeting skills Target Management and Adv Tgt Mgmt)
- Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing --> "Long Range Drone Interfacing"
- Energy Grid Upgrades --> "Engineering Upgrades" (encompassing both power grid and capacitor upgrades, neither of which are energy grids)
- Shield Compensation --> "Shield Boost Economization" (or whatever: anything to differentiate it from the resistance-boosting "Kinetic/Thermic/EM/Explosive Shield Compensation" skills, which incidentally need some serious love)
- Thermic XXX --> "Thermal XXX" (please stick with thermal, the two are synonymous but thermic is antiquated)
- Frigate/Industrial/Cruiser/etc Construction : Please add an "advanced" in front of these, as they only have use for T2 production.
- Remote Sensing --> "Remote Planetary Sensing" (especially since the context of being in the Planet Management group is now being lost)
- Jury Rigging --> "Ship Rigging". While the phrase 'jury rigging' is technically the correct term for a makeshift modification, particularly in a nautical context, it is more commonly associated with corrupting a trial jury, a la Al Capone. It just smells weird, please rename. :)
- Afterburner --> "Afterburners" or "Afterburner Operation". It's just odd to name a skill in the non-plural sense.
- Hacking --> "Data Analysis" or "Encrypted Data Analysis". Basically tie this skill name to the Data Analyzer and Data Sites.
- Archaeology --> "Relic Analysis" or "Archaeological Relic Analysis". Similarly tie this skill name to the Relic Analyzer and Relic Sites.
- All T3 subsystems skills --> properly name these as "subsystem" skills, e.g. "Minmatar Propulsion Subsystems"[/i].
As they are now, they look very appealing for any pilot to train for their respective race. It is not clear by your proposed group/name combo that they are useful only for T3 ships (though the skill descriptions themselves are pretty clear).
Skill Groups
- Electronics System (sic) --> "Electronic Warfare Systems"
- Armor + Shields (combine the two) --> "Defensive Systems"
Other tidbits
- Survey III as a prerequisite for Salvaging makes even less sense than it did before.
- Energy Pulse Weapons really does not belong in the engineering group. Just stick it in Gunnery.
- Cloaking really does not belong in with the other ewar skills. Could put it in targeting or engineering groups. If you do leave it with the ewar skills, should probably move the items from the 'Electronics and Sensor Upgrades" to the "Electronic Warfare" item group as a result, which is a little weird.
Remember, don't change stuff just to change stuff, or to satisfy someone's internal OCD. The real world is messy, Eve should be too. qwerty vs dvorak. 'nuff said. |
Emiko P'eng
49
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 22:30:00 -
[400] - Quote
Spaceship Command +1
Piloting is just lame! As immortal clones we are supposed to be wired up to replace, in some cases hundreds of crew, we are Commander, pilot, navigator, weapons officer, electronics warfare officer, etc.... The skill covers not just piloting but how to synchronise all the ship systems to us. Just look at the bonuses you get for each ship with the current skill. Most of them have nothing to do with 'Piloting'
If you are really set on removing 'Commander' try 'Starship Familiarisation'
Targeting Systems / Advanced Targeting Systems +1
The military love their systems as we are supposed to be fighting using the word System is far more military
Subsystem skills independent category +1
As a skill set that you can lose skill on they need to be clearly marked as separate
Planetary Interaction skills independent category +1
Unless you are planning to totally overhauling Planetary Interaction, it has absolutely nothing to do with mining from a spaceship as it is all about building manned facilities on a planet. |
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Barramuda
Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
5
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Posted - 2013.07.08 23:09:00 -
[401] - Quote
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:marVLs wrote:Cool but "Spaceship Piloting" ? Spaceship Command sounds better I'm with this guy. "Spaceship Piloting" is a little too limp-wristed.
I agree with commanders above. |
Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2117
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Posted - 2013.07.09 00:07:00 -
[402] - Quote
This is so utterly pointless...
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Khira Kitamatsu
678
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Posted - 2013.07.09 00:40:00 -
[403] - Quote
So this is what CCP waste time on? Renaming skills and skill sets? Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Fennore
Underworld Innovations Sindication
6
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Posted - 2013.07.09 03:31:00 -
[404] - Quote
Spaceship Piloting? No That's just poor grammar to begin with. You are commanding your ship. You are not just a pilot, you are commanding your ship and all it's systems and crew. |
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
89
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Posted - 2013.07.09 04:26:00 -
[405] - Quote
Spaceship Make-Active Enablertizor And Primary Bonus Magnificationing! |
Wyndeigo
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2013.07.09 04:26:00 -
[406] - Quote
I can see why some of the skills could use some cleaning up but;
1. There are far more important items that have been overlooked for far too long.
2. You are just creating a lot of redundant work for the third party developers that do not have entire teams to help and also do it mostly for free.
3. How about lets get ship tiericide, rebalancing or whatever you want to call it, get it done.
4. DO POS's, "nuff said"
5. long standing bug fixes
6. pve sucks, again, nuff said.
and the list goes on.
p.s. just noticed this also; go to the EvE gate main page and check out the Headline News column, you still have articles from Inferno patches, what the ... really Inferno!!! |
Nariya Kentaya
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
650
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Posted - 2013.07.09 04:41:00 -
[407] - Quote
We dont pilot our sapceships, we CAMMAND them, aside from that most of my complaints can be written off as me being used to the old names and not liking change, kinda like back when ammo/meta names were all made unimaginative, er i mean, "streamlined" |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
367
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 06:44:00 -
[408] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:So this is what CCP waste time on? Renaming skills and skill sets? It's certainly not a waste of time. It is going to be a lot easier for newbs to identify skills they are looking for. Remove insurance. |
Luscius Uta
Unleashed' Fury Forsaken Federation
44
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Posted - 2013.07.09 07:56:00 -
[409] - Quote
One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post: Every skill group, except Planet Management and Subsystems, has a skill of the same name in it which is generally the most important skill in the group and has a 1x training multiplier. If you want to introduce new skill groups, I would like them to keep with this "tradition" (which can be done without introduction of new skills, I am assured). |
NeoShocker
Interstellar eXodus The Retirement Club
171
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Posted - 2013.07.09 10:28:00 -
[410] - Quote
Yeah, I agree with the skill group to undergo some naming changes.
Armor, ok.
Electronic System, I disagree. Should separate between electronic and Electronic warfare. Electronic should be all CPU reducing related skills and cloaking device for example.
Engineering. Still same ol'. But all PG reducing skills shold be here.. I'm wondering about the Energy transfer tho'. I think those go under Electronic warfare. I'm unsure about nanite related skills. Don't think it fits into "engineering."
Missiles, ok.
Neural Enhancement. Ok
Production, ok.
Resource Processsing, perfect.
Ship Modification, ok, but as long its RIGS. T3 Subs should be on its own group categorry rather in Ship Modification.
Scanning, eh, ok I suppose. But I think those should go under electronics.
Science, ok
Shield, ok, makes more sense than engineering. I suggest renaming tactical shield manipulation to something else.
Spaceship Piloting, eh. Spaceship Command is a better name.
Targeting. Hm... I don't know. I think its unecessary. Should go into Electronic system. BUT all the sensor compensation should be in Electronic Warfare group. |
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Juniper Weatherwax
Industrial Waste Removal Services
1
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Posted - 2013.07.09 11:37:00 -
[411] - Quote
Tony S7ark wrote:marVLs wrote:Cool but "Spaceship Piloting" ? Spaceship Command sounds better
How about looking at this a little differently, by obtaining licences to gain access rights to larger bigger or faster ships, like getting a motorcycle licence or a licence to drive a semi.
Frigate Licence Provisional Cruiser licence Caldari Freighter licence
So in effect, your 'logbook' would aquire licences to fly/pilot ships as your learning and abilities progressed.
Spaceship Command could be read as 'Ship Licences' and each section, Frigate - Dreadnaught would show non trained, partially trained, fully trained and with the holding of, say, cruiser licences for each faction, a new licence simply 'All Cruisers'.
'Space Ship Command' sounds like an authoritian resource, some thing you rmight report to to buy extended rights to stay in High Sec while you have a rating of -10.
'Space Ship Licences' tells you what it is, a portfolio of licencing achievements.
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Benjamin Artoriana
The Goat Lords Excavation Inc
10
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Posted - 2013.07.09 11:52:00 -
[412] - Quote
Debir Achen wrote:Callic Veratar wrote:I think it would be really helpful to add sub-groups of skills.
Spaceship Piloting (SC, ACS, Cap ship) > Amarr Spaceship Command (F/D/C/BC/BS/I/SC/...) > Caldari Spaceship Command (F/D/C/BC/BS/I/SC/...) > Gallente Spaceship Command (F/D/C/BC/BS/I/SC/...) > Minmatar Spaceship Command (F/D/C/BC/BS/I/SC/...) > Tech 2 Spaceship Command (AS, Inty, Dic, HIC, HAC, etc)
Definitely feature creep, but it would make things a lot easier to manage. Yep! Let's re-imagine the whole skill tree as a two-level tree (rather than the current 1-level tree). As far as possible, the first skill in each sub-tree is the "named" skill, which is fundamental to all other skills in the tree. Note that 'named' skills might be nested: Electronic Warfare is a base skill for a tree of skills, but is itself a subtree from Electronics Ship Systems: - Electronics: Electronics, (all the sensor & targeting related skills) - Electronic Warfare: Electronic Warfare, ... - Propulsion Jamming: Propulsion Jamming, ... - Engineering: Engineering, ... - Energy Systems Operation: Energy Systems Operation, Energy Management, ... - Shield Operation: Shield Operation, Shield Management, ... - Mechanics: Mechanics, Hull Upgrades, (armor skills) - Repair Systems: Repair Systems, ... - Jury Rigging: ... - Subsystems: ... Weapon Systems: - Gunnery: - Missile Launcher Operation: - Drones: - Weapon Upgrades: (includes seige modules) Social Skills: - Corp Management: - Social: - Leadership: - Trade: Spaceship Command: - Spaceship Command: Spaceship Command, Advanced Spaceship Command, Capital Ships, all the T2 skills - Navigation: (seems to fit here as well as anywhere) - Amarr / Caldar / Gallente / Minmatar Spaceship Command Industry: - Industry: Industry, production skills - Mining: Mining, ... - Refining: Refining, ... - PI: ... - Spaceship Construction: Science: - Science: Science - Research: Research, Lab Operation, ..., all the R&D skills (maybe split the specific R&D and the 'base' R&D skills) - Astrometrics: Astrometrics, ... - Exploration: Archaelogy, Hacking, ... - Personal Enhancement: Cybernetics, Informorph Psych, (boosters) - Thermodynamics: Thermodynamics, (Nanite Repair skills) Stuff that I'm not quite sure where it fits: - Anchoring, Salvaging (despite the similarity, I assert this is *not* a mining skill, since it's generally used by non-miners), cynos + jump portals, Starbase Defense Management
I can agree with this in part from the standpoint of moving skills into a two-tier system of base/core areas (since CCP are fond of tiers) with T2/3 modifiers (skills like HAC/HIC/etc) rather than the current single tier (and poorly named and some of the suggested name changes suck donkey balls) system.
A lot of good ideas floating about in this thread. Something, something, don't be an idiot. Blah, blah, I love EVE and goats. |
Liastr
Wayward 7
8
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Posted - 2013.07.09 13:21:00 -
[413] - Quote
Multiple Targeting sucks. Target Management is much better. Target Acquisition to me sounds more like a targeting speed skill.
Spaceship Piloting is indeed 'naff'. Spaceship Command is much better. Really, there's no reason to change this.
Also +1 on standardizing the skill names for ORE ships. ORE industrial just for covering the Noctis is a bit dumb, unless you're planning on adding or moving more ORE ships to that group.
Not sure about the PI skills. PI is fairly unique in EVE industry, so it seems odd to spread it's skills out among the other industrial skills. I would vote to keep the Planet Management group. |
Markku Laaksonen
EVE University Ivy League
158
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 13:53:00 -
[414] - Quote
This is completely unnecessary. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
390
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 15:00:00 -
[415] - Quote
Reorganizing the skills in specific skill related groups has long been needed. +1
Re/naming of the groups and making even more categories of them. -1.
Prefer the current category names as they make sense. Can add a hover over the categories to inform a player, for example, that Electronics skills offer A/B/C benefits (or add an additional box below the title explaining what skills in that category does).
The current category names have a ship system feel to them, where renaming them to specific skills and what they do, cheapens how a ship is looked as. In industry to the military, the names for equipment are related to the plant or ship itself. Sub systems (a sub-category) are named after specific systems or functions.
In the military command is the term for ship/station leadership (and only like in the Air Force/Army they're considered pilots, naval forces call them aviators. Generic command is recognized all over, not just branch related like "pilot"). "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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YuuKnow
Terra-Formers
815
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Posted - 2013.07.09 15:50:00 -
[416] - Quote
The current system is adequate really. Its not that complicated that anyone at CCP should be spending work time working on meaningless stuff like this.
yk |
spaco butilia
Mind Your Business
0
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Posted - 2013.07.09 17:04:00 -
[417] - Quote
imho, there's no reason for continue to use the name hull upgrades for a skill that improve the armor hp amount and "mechanics" for another one that improves the hull hp amount.... |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
4
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Posted - 2013.07.09 19:11:00 -
[418] - Quote
I'm swayed by reason and must change my view to "just keep it as it is, its too small of an improvement that it should take valuable time, best not over-think it and take a step back and look for something that is more worth it". If skills should be changed at all the change will be bigger than just changing names, the tree-shape of the skills would be removed and general uniformity of people's skills and ships would be removed, (fex all ships have pretty much the same amount of shield hp, armor hp and hull hp, same with all the other attributes, and all the same skills and modules and module attributes). This uniformity does make for an even playing-field but its like playing chess where white is playing white and make PVE the same all the time and PVP quite un-involved and detached. but more about that if I ever post the complete set of skill-improvements I've put together. |
Xercodo
Xovoni Astronautical Manufacturing and Engineering
2491
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 02:41:00 -
[419] - Quote
Luscius Uta wrote:One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post: Every skill group, except Planet Management and Subsystems, has a skill of the same name in it which is generally the most important skill in the group and has a 1x training multiplier. If you want to introduce new skill groups, I would like them to keep with this "tradition" (which can be done without introduction of new skills, I am assured).
Actually they are doing this specifically to break that tradition.
Many times people assume that training industry means any skill under the industry category when they go to do their first manufacture tutorial.
That overlapping name bit is terrible. The Drake is a Lie |
Xercodo
Xovoni Astronautical Manufacturing and Engineering
2491
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 02:44:00 -
[420] - Quote
Liastr wrote:Multiple Targeting sucks. Target Management is much better. Target Acquisition to me sounds more like a targeting speed skill.
Spaceship Piloting is indeed 'naff'. Spaceship Command is much better. Really, there's no reason to change this.
Also +1 on standardizing the skill names for ORE ships. ORE industrial just for covering the Noctis is a bit dumb, unless you're planning on adding or moving more ORE ships to that group.
Not sure about the PI skills. PI is fairly unique in EVE industry, so it seems odd to spread it's skills out among the other industrial skills. I would vote to keep the Planet Management group.
I also like the idea of making the skill tree more of a tree. Right now it's fairly flat.
-All ship skills. Sub folders for race specific skills please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The total Spaceship Command list is 67 items long! break it down a bit, spare a thought for my mouse wheel! -T2 ship skills (Assault ships, Interdictors, Heavy Interdictors, Recon, etc) would make sense to be in a different or sub-folder called something like Spaceship Command Specialization. Ties in well with the naming of the different weapon Specialization skills. -Weapon support skills (Missile Projection, Rapid Firing, Controlled Bursts, Motion Prediction, etc) being in a sub-folder would really help separate them from the core requirement skills from the support skills. You could call the sub folder Missile Proficiency or Turret Proficiency -Likewise with fitting skills. Separating out the "efficiency" skills from the "required for" skills would help clarify what's important to train first. ie; in Navigation there is Afterburner and High Speed Maneuvering and Jump Drive Operation in a sub-folder I'd put Acceleration Control and Fuel Conservation and maybe Jump Fuel Conservation. Call the folder Navigation Efficiencyor something.
I like the idea of sub folders because it would help with navigating the often long list of skills to find the one you're looking for. I'm glad this is being looked at, but just moving them around between single-level folders doesn't really help. We're still looking at big blobs of skills, slightly less vaguely grouped together without any real indication of how they interact. Using sub folders would go a long way to showing how skills relate to each other, not to mention cutting down on scrolling through large skill lists to find that one skill (and that's if you can even remember what it's called!!)
4 racial categories and Spaceship command, Adv Spaceship Command and Capital Ships can go into Navigation The Drake is a Lie |
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