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Sticky:[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 16 post(s)
JerseyBOI 2 Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED 6	Posted - 2013.07.19 00:15:00 - [571] - Quote Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Do not like the Ishtar changes. Am I the only person that puts a full rack of medium tech 2 blasters with Void M on an Ishtar so that I can overheat the high slots when I need a short, sharp burst of damage? The Ishtar is already a frigate annihilator and doesn't need a tracking bonus making it even better against small ships. Where it needs help is in combats against larger ships. PvE impact of the changes: Minimal nerf to non-sentry based Ishtar fits, minor buff to sentry based ones. PvP impact: Significantly improved performance against Interceptors, slight improvement v. frigates/AFs/Dessies, moderate nerf v. cruisers and larger. the tracking and optimal is for sentries bro...cause using heavies is stupid.
JEFFRAIDER Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 264	Posted - 2013.07.19 00:21:00 - [572] - Quote M1k3y Koontz wrote: Titans suck, they're only good for bridging and drivebys Back to the topic at hand... Muninn, I am disappoint. KNOCK KNOCK? WHO IS THERE? A POOR
JerseyBOI 2 Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED 6	Posted - 2013.07.19 00:22:00 - [573] - Quote why not have a combat and attack role? combats get the bonus to sig, attack get speed bonus, not pre nano nerf but ffs faster than tier 3's
Zarnak Wulf In Exile. Imperial Outlaws. 1260	Posted - 2013.07.19 00:33:00 - [574] - Quote There are some very large signature radii for the AHACs. I don't know how effective that 50% MWD penalty reduction is going to be with the likes of 140m, 145m, 150m, and even 160m signatures. Add in shield tanking and yikes.
Domer Pyle Northern Flemish Bastards Inc Yulai Federation 74	Posted - 2013.07.19 00:34:00 - [575] - Quote thank god the vaga will be largely the same. i'm ok with these changes. "Imagine if the bars to your prison were all you had ever known. Then one day, someone appears and unlocks the door. If they have the power to do this, then are they really the liberator? You never remembered who it was that closed you in." - Ior Labron
MrDiao SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation 27	Posted - 2013.07.19 00:34:00 - [576] - Quote CCP Rise, I'm not sure if you realized a hilarious fact: Q: "What is the most popular ship bonus in EVE online?" A: "10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage dealt by drones." Myrmidon, Prophecy Dominix, Navy Dominix, Armageddon, Rattlesnake, Sin Arbitrator, Vexor, Navy Vexor, Gila Dragoon, Algos Ishtar, Curse, Pilgrim I feel a lack of imagination to use one bonus as the solution for most of the drone ships. How about something like "15% bonus to medium and light drone damage and 25% to medium and light drone hitpoints"? or "100% bonus to EW drone effectiveness"?
Gneeznow L'Avant Garde 77	Posted - 2013.07.19 00:34:00 - [577] - Quote Muninn is still a more expensive, crappier tornado, it needs a total rethink. I've not seen a muninn in about 4 years and I don't think they'll be spotted much after 1.1 either.
Prometheus Exenthal mnemonic. 601	Posted - 2013.07.19 00:49:00 - [578] - Quote You already know how I feel about the others, but I'll just say a few key things here. The Sacrilege is replacing the Deimos as the brawling champ (assuming you don't ** with it anymore), and the Deimos is now a useless pile of ** that you always seemed to want it to be. WTF is wrong with you people. Gallente is NOT a shield race, yet you're giving the once PERFECT blaster hull a completely useless change while reducing its armor and structure. ** cap injectors. lack of utility highs. making every goddamn ship the *** same. Stop ***** with things that aren't broken. The Zealot is fixed for fleet logi combo usage only. The NOmen and Oracle do everything else better. The Sac is the only ship you've done right. It was fat and slow, now it's not. The Cerb needed speed AND cap. It's still going to cap itself out in no time (faster now since you've got less potential fitting) The Eagle needed a wave of light drones and working rails to compete, NOT a removal of its extra high. The Muninn will still be suffering from the Minmatarmor plague. The lack of extra damaging high means you're still going to be stuck with either a lame tank, or roughly the same damage output from before. The Muninn should be the Mimir. It needs to be AGILE not FAST. You HAVE fast with the Vagabond. The Vagabond gets a useless bonus that plays to people who run links/implants. The Ishtar needed more fitting (esp after armor tank buff), and you overlooked that somehow. The Deimos. You took the top qualities of the Deimos, and made it a 150m POS Thorax. The Vexor > the Thorax in every way except glass turret ganking. Lets see how many people do that in their Deimos', because that's exactly what's going to happen. I can already give you an answer; it's the same number of people who do that in Vigilants. -áwww.promsrage.com
Joe D'Trader Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 175	Posted - 2013.07.19 01:05:00 - [579] - Quote The Diemost still feels a little bit weak, but I'll give it a go
Rn Bonnet Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 8	Posted - 2013.07.19 01:06:00 - [580] - Quote You have a core problem here with the entire plan. You are relying on the medium ranged weapons buff to fix to make the HAC hulls more viable. The problem is you are also buffing the T1 and T3 hulls. None, NONE of these hulls will even approach the T3 ship equivalent in the intended role. A sniper Tengu will be: 10% faster 50% more Agile Do 20% more DPS Do 20% more volley Have 35% more base lock range Have 200% more EHP And have an extra rig slot than an Eagle. You don't "fix" the T2's in anyway. Look at the numbers above, really look at them and tell me you don't see the problem. Those numbers apply to every hull. You need to bring that ship in its specialized role on par with the T3 ship to even make them useful.
Olivia Hume Hoover Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore 5	Posted - 2013.07.19 01:09:00 - [581] - Quote People who complain about T2 HP, I think get it wrong. When comparing ehp of T1 to faction, T2 and T3 for a comparable role: - faction have better HP with T1 resists; better ehp. - T2 get better resist with T1 HP: better ehp, easy to rep. - T3 get better HP and resists; crazy ehp, easy to rep. It worked quite well for exploration or recon since they are more specialised regardless of the better tank and dps of T3 equivalent . But it didn't work for HACs; they couldn't rely shine compare to T3 in their role since tank and dps is very much part of their role. I hope that new role bonus is enough of buff.
Rn Bonnet Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 8	Posted - 2013.07.19 01:11:00 - [582] - Quote Not to mention the 37 extra base cpu 16 extra base pg.
Rn Bonnet Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 8	Posted - 2013.07.19 01:14:00 - [583] - Quote Olivia Hume wrote: People who complain about T2 HP, I think get it wrong. When comparing ehp of T1 to faction, T2 and T3 for a comparable role: - faction have better HP with T1 resists; better ehp. - T2 get better resist with T1 HP: better ehp, easy to rep. - T3 get better HP and resists; crazy ehp, easy to rep. It worked quite well for exploration or recon since they are more specialised regardless of the better tank and dps of T3 equivalent . But it didn't work for HACs; they couldn't rely shine compare to T3 in their role since tank and dps is very much part of their role. I hope that new role bonus is enough of buff. Yeah I will take 200% more EHP over 50% sig radius every day of the week and twice on tuesday considering one unbonused target painter "cures" your sig radius bonus.
Chessur Life of lively full life thx to shield battery 123	Posted - 2013.07.19 01:24:00 - [584] - Quote My 2 isk Sacrilege: You are really not doing much to this ship that is noteworthy. Since the HML nerf, HAM's / HML's have a super difficult time applying damage to targets with out bonused painters / hard tackle. Sacrilage is so slow, and is not going to be able to catch T1 cruisers / Navy cruisers. It is going to suffer the exact same problems as it does now. It is slow, has no DPS projection / application and is generally going to be used for armor brawling fleets only. You have done nothing with the ship in terms of new / interesting game play. While i respect the attempt at giving it an active armor bonus (thanks to the cap / resist) Its 50% MWD sig radius bonus is completely wasted. Sacrilege is not running down anything, and if it does it needs to get into scram web range. In the end you are completely wasting the 50% sig bonus on this ship, and arguably the cap use bonus as well if you are flying with logi. The sac is going to drop reps in favor of more resistance. Considering that it uses a weapon system that does not use energy, I am really trying hard to come up with a reason for this bonus. If on the other hand your idea was to make this ship a viable self repping platform, I feel that the cap bonus is again wasted. You are not giving the ship enough cap regen to allow the removal of a mid slot cap booster. The ship is still going to need one.these changes are disappointing, as they do nothing to address the problems of the sac, and the new bonues do not in any way contribute to different fitting styles due to a freed mid slot. Zealot: Again nothing of note in the changes. The zealot is still far and away much slower than the Omen / Nomen. Infact the zealot is one of the slowest HAC's. It is slower than all of the T1 cruisers, and most of the hacs. This kiting platform will simply be run down and killed by anything that fits an MWD. The zealot suffered from having a capacitor issue. You have done nothing to address this in the patch. While this ship actually will gain something from the Sig bonus, again you are forcing it into an MWD role if you want to take full advantage of the ship. Zealot has known cap issues. However even though it is now almost pigion holed into an MWD role, you have done nothing to address the need for the Mid slot cap booster. So the zealot will be forced into going towards an active armor tanked setup for small gang / Solo. This places it exactly in the same position as it was before the patch- which is a slower, slightly more DPS Nomen. With the increasing speeds of all T1 cruisers, and considering the fact that the Zealot is one of the slowest HAC's there is no reason to use this ship over then nomen when it comes to kiting. Perhaps in huge fleets, but in any other situation this ship will be outclassed. Again I am not impressed, as you have done absolutely nothing to fix or help the zealot along after the T1 cruiser / Navy cruiser buff. It is Obsolete in the current iteration. Cerberus: Currently the cerberus / tengu share the crown as the best RLM (which are now the only viable missile choice for kiting) ships. However they are both bad. The reason why is because, both of these ships are slow as sin, and will simply be ran down and killed while MWD fit. While this patch has made the DPS output of the cerberus nearly equal to that of the RLM Tengu, you have again missed the entire point of a kiting ship- Speed. The cerberus is again, slower than every single T1 cruiser, and navy cruiser. So I am very interested to hear from you what types of ships you are planning to kite. You specifically quote in the ship description that the cerb is now a kiting boat. So I am curious. In the case of the cerb, like the zealot- the MWD sig bonus would fit well into the kiting role. However like the zealot, the cerberus is to slow to kiting anything, and therefor is worthless when you look at the Caracal / Scythe Fleet / Osprey Navy. Eagle: With its optimal range bonus, one would think that this would be used as a rail sniper boat. With the upcoming changes, the med rail guns might actually be useful. But then I start looking at the 4% shield resist bonus, and I think well ok maybe its a close range brawling blaster boat. However I keep reading and again notice that it has a 50% MWD sig bonus. So now I am thinking sweet! It has an optimal bonus, so rail fit it with an MWD, and kite with an active tank! Great I think. But then I notice the speed. 175. Are you kidding me???? This thing is so slow that it can't kite for ****. You have some how made something slower than both the sacrilage, zealot, and cerb. So then I ask myself- where does this ship fit in, where you can take advantage of all its bonuses? If you are going in to brawl, certainly more damage / tracking / falloff would be more useful for a blaster boat. Also why does a brawling ship need an MWD sig bonus? its in scram and web range. its too slow to run anything down, so it can't be for 'closing the gap'. If you fit it as a sniper boat, your wasting the 4% shield resits, and the 50% resits to MWD. So no matter how you fit it, this new eagle, like the old one- is sup par to other ships. It cannot fit into any role where it can utilize the bonuses you have given it. Again, you have done nothing new, and the eagle will not change. Deimos: This ship, with its slot layout and fittings actually makes sense. Its fast enough to run things down / brawl, and thanks to its MWD bonus it can do that, or kite very effectively. This ship has the speed to keep up in the current meta, and considering the new rail changes, might actually be more useful than its T1 cousin.
JEFFRAIDER Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 264	Posted - 2013.07.19 01:24:00 - [585] - Quote hey also bosses these changes are not good gotta make them worth it over a 2m t1 cruiser and a 75m T1 ABC but without unbalancing them for fleets GL o7
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition. 4081	Posted - 2013.07.19 01:36:00 - [586] - Quote "Guys a Deimos just landed on grid with me, orders?" -Average BC Pilot "Really? Well just tackle it and we will be there in a few minutes." -Friends Docked Up Several Jumps Away "OK, he is tackled. Got a scram, web and even a neut on him. My tank is doing ok considering he is using blasters." -Average BC Pilot "Nice. We are undocking and should be there..." -Friends Docked Up Several Jumps Away "AHAHAHA!!! Holy ** I was trying to pull damage so you guys could kill mail * on it, but he dipped into armor and just exploded. Strange. He even had a damage control fit too." -Average BC Pilot "Poor son of a ***. Well launch your salvage drones and salvage the wreck. About all the Diemost is good for anyways." -Friends Docked Up Several Jumps Away "No kidding. Wait, aBC on scan now. Should I..." -Average BC Pilot "WARP OUT! I repeat warp out!!!... Do you copy?!" -Friends Docked Up Several Jumps Away .
Golden Hart The Generic Pirate Corporation Fusion. 0	Posted - 2013.07.19 01:39:00 - [587] - Quote Simon BlackWell wrote: Deimos has been hit fairly hard. 4th mid is nice, but honestly, I've no use for a web for the most part. Nerfing it's EHP was a bit of a low blow. It can't brawl properly now, not to mention that with the utility highslot gone, there went the ubiquitous small Nos to keep everything running whilst you brawl. You've changed the Nos mechanics, then begin plucking Utility highslots away from things. Staaaaahp CouldnGÇÖt agree with you more leave the utility slots alone gallente need them!
Mukun The Shadow Plague Fidelas Constans 1	Posted - 2013.07.19 01:39:00 - [588] - Quote as a close combat ship,why deimos has the highest sig radius? does it do any good to help it get clost to target or avoid damage? or you re too focus on rework it to a railplatform? and also, where is the 7.5% tracking bonus from thorax?
Chimpface Holocaust Zarnfell 4	Posted - 2013.07.19 01:42:00 - [589] - Quote I just did the math on the Vagabond speed bonus and it would have to be 298m/s to cover the max velocity lost by replacing the bonus
Chessur Life of lively full life thx to shield battery 124	Posted - 2013.07.19 01:52:00 - [590] - Quote Ishtar: It's no secret, I hate drone boats. Drones are horrible, and cannot be used as a primary damage source for PvP small gang. They etch out some kind of usefulness in scram / web armor brawling- but that's about it. Sentry sniping for PvP is a joke. Any ship that uses drones as its primary weapon system is really a waste. The ishtar is slow, has a useless MWD sig bonus. However the rest of the bonuses make sense for a drone hull. Still completely outclassed by the navy vexor, because unlike the Ishtar- the Nvexor can do things other than just brawl. Vagabond: AC boats were already struggling. Then the TE nerf happened, and all AC boats took a nose dive when trying to apply damage outside of scram / web range. The vaga shares the same 10% increase in falloff as its stabber cousin, and just like the stabber cannot kite. Even though this is considered a kiting ship- its pathetic DPS at range means that it is outclassed by other ships. The MWD sig bonus makes sense here, and the vaga is certainly fast enough. However what I don't understand is the active tanking bonus. The vaga is a 'kiting' ship that according to you, should have the ability to get up close in scram / web and face ****. The active tanking bonus (while nice) is really going to shut down the vagas play style. It seems that you are really encroaching on the SFI's world, of fast, hard tackle. In fact the vaga may do the job even better, so what would be the point of ever flying an SFI anymore? The idea of a 290m/s base speed cruiser with the ability to run a really powerful dual LASB tank with an MWD scram, is simply going to be a nightmare for any solo / small gang pilots. SFI's were annoying enough, but adding in a ship that has this nice speed, and a secondary tanking bonus is going to make this ship really, really difficult for players to fly against- as nothing can run from it. Muninn: This ship has (along with the new Arty changes) Taken a step in the right direction. It is doing all of the things it did before, however it is doing them much better- and all of its bonuses, and slot reworking make complete sense when added into its desired play style. Good work. About the HAC's in general: I am getting confused on what you are doing with HAC's. If you truly want to make some of them into the pinnacle of kiting boats, than you need to buff the speed on many of the 'kiting hulls'. The T1 cruisers / Navy cruisers are just so fast now- that any kiting cruiser is going to need to keep up with that pack, if they are going to stand a chance. Over all I am really confused the the Eagle hulls, vaga, sacrilage, cerberus. They simply don't make sense. Or if the ship does perform well, will do its job so well that it will eclipse others / make other play styles extremely difficult. Here is a quick speed chart: New Vagabond / Stabber: 290<<<< The fastest cruiser in the game has an active tanking bonus. You are not worried about the proliferation of scram vagas? They can catch everything, and hold it down- and now the have a nice tank, and better projection- with a Sig bonus. What is the point of the SFI? Scythe Fleet: 280 Nomen: 265 Nosprey: 260 Exequror Navy: 255 SFI: 250<<<<< Help me!!!!! Scythe: 250 Exequror: 240 Thorax: 240 Omen: 235 Caracal: 230 New Deimos: 220 Vexor Navy Issue: 220 Augoror Navy Issue: 215 Augoror Navy: 210 Caracal Navy: 210 New Zealot: 210<<<< Again? How is this an upgrade from the Nomen? New Muninn: 210 Vexor: 205 New Cerberus: 205<<<<< this is your idea of a kiting boat? Osprey: 200 New Sacrilage: 200<<<<< Why is the MWD sig bonus on a ship this slow useful? Maller: 195 New Ishtar: 185<<<< So slow. New Eagle: 175<<<< Again MWD sig bonus?
CaldariCitizen 3924833 Throw More Dots Verge of Carebearing 2	Posted - 2013.07.19 01:56:00 - [591] - Quote SACRILEGE Minus 1 highslot + 1 lowslot please
Cearain Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo 999	Posted - 2013.07.19 01:59:00 - [592] - Quote I'm not really thrilled that all the t2 frigates and cruiser get the same role bonus. I realize null sec pilots may like this bonus but as a low sec pilot its very limited in value. Scram removes the bonus and sig tanking generally means you are in scram (and neut) range. In low sec flying any of these expect a bunch of frigates to get under your guns while you die with your role bonused mwd turned off. Some variety would be good ccp. Not all t2s need to have the same "role" of sig tanking battleship sized guns while your bubbled. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
gawrshmapooo Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative 20	Posted - 2013.07.19 02:02:00 - [593] - Quote My shitfit Vexor: 20k ehp without damage control. 300dps My Carefully fit Sacrilege: 8.8k ehp 260 dps. My shitfit Vexor isk cost: 25mil My carefully fit Sacrilege cost: 300mil Don't even tell me that's okay.
Flex Carter Caldari Independant Mining Association 80	Posted - 2013.07.19 02:05:00 - [594] - Quote CCP, please show me on the doll where my Diemos touched you guys to warrant this drastic change. Geez
Lunaleil Fournier StarFleet Enterprises Red Alliance 28	Posted - 2013.07.19 02:14:00 - [595] - Quote These changes are underwhelming, but I'm glad you chose HACs for 1.1! I just don't see the theme with HACs like I've seen with other classes. Are they combat or attack? It just feels like their role is "use mwd and try to find a useful spot on the battlefield" rather than something more tangible. I think you should choose to have 1 line follow the vagabond speed/dmg (attack) line of thinking and the other line follow the Eagle/lomg range sniper line of thinking. Maybe a role bonus that scrams don't shut down MWD...that would do well to set these ships apart.
Apocryphal Noise Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 67	Posted - 2013.07.19 02:20:00 - [596] - Quote Great, another minidominix to abuse drone assign. Are you ok with how drone assign works?
Dinsdale Pirannha Pirannha Corp 1106	Posted - 2013.07.19 02:22:00 - [597] - Quote What is truly scary is that Rise has said that he will consult with the CSM (groan) then get back to us. Here's a concept. Throw these ships on Sisi tomorrow. Start with what you have suggested with these changes. Allocate some area Sisi for ship testing. Even use the existing thunderdome area on Sisi. Make many public posts encouraging people to heavily test them. Now, and this is the hard part for CCP, ACTUALLY listen to the feedback and tweak accordingly, and OFTEN!!!! Don't do what fozzie did in the drone nerf, and ignore 60 pages of feedback, or have another situation like ignoring the warnings about the UI. Maybe give away SP ON tranquility, not Sisi, for the best suggestions that evolve into the final changes. And something else that is hard for CCP, TAKE YOUR TIME. Do it right. State that any changes to the HAC class won't be introduced on TQ until the Dec release. The player base is the best asset you have to design these ships and test them, morph them into something useful. Use that asset. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook.
Tankn00blicus sleep Deprivation INC. LLC The Kadeshi 28	Posted - 2013.07.19 02:26:00 - [598] - Quote Flex Carter wrote: CCP, please show me on the doll where my Diemos touched you guys to warrant this drastic change. Geez They wanted to make absolutely sure that the people who haven't already switched from Diemosts to superior-in-almost-every-way Taloses do so now.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 1299	Posted - 2013.07.19 02:27:00 - [599] - Quote So did a rough check with the MWD bonus. Ship one was a MWD Talos with Void Neutron blasters, it would have a 50% hit chance at Optimal + Falloff going 1529 M/s against a MWD Deimos going 1841 M/s using Null, which had a 80% hit chance. With changing the MWD bonus to a 100% Increase to AB velocity bonus, the Talos could not hit the Deimos, the Deimos had a 80% hit chance while going 1120 m/s Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 5686	Posted - 2013.07.19 02:38:00 - [600] - Quote Apocryphal Noise wrote: Great, another minidominix to abuse drone assign. Are you ok with how drone assign works? For the sake of this game I sure hope the answer is "no". -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel.

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