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Vigdis Thorisdottir
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2011.10.30 21:30:00 -
[91] - Quote
I think there is a basic assumption which the OP is making. It seems possible that the OP treats Eve (and gaming) as a hobby rather than a game. Bear with me: If you view Eve as a hobby, it is easy to equate ganking somebody's officer-fit CNR to keying somebody's classic Corvette that they restored in their garage. Both represent a significant investment of time and effort rather than a just pile of game mechanics if you are viewing Eve as a hobby.
That said, I would be seriously rolling the dice by deciding to take my Corvette for a leisurely drive through Mogadishu. |
Kietay Ayari
Monopoly Money Operations
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 21:32:00 -
[92] - Quote
Captain Kirk is my new favourite poster :D I never knew how people were able to assume these new funny identities but some people sure can pull it off well! Takes the pressure off of everyone else (also me) who is BORING to be interesting.
Oh yeah also - in a game your actions do not define your morality, but instead your motives do. Someone killing helpless people in EVE because its fun and they like to play that way sounds like a fun person! Someone who kills them hoping and praying that it will make them sad in RL I would say yes that is... not immoral, but not something a good person would have as a motive!
Had to say something on topic right!
Ferox #1 |
Handsome Hussein
72
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 21:39:00 -
[93] - Quote
The Apostle wrote:LMAO. I'm quite possibly old enough to be YOUR father but let's not go there because there'd be some lines about "your mom" etc. 
You're probably not THAT old, don't sell yourself short. I'll give you a hint, I'm younger than Malcanis and old enough to remember playing SWOTL on a 286. My first comp was a TRS-80.
Hexus Draidin wrote:I've heard on several occasions that how a person behaves on Eve is indicative of who they are at heart, without all of the restrictions of society. There might be some truth in this, but I'm not sure how much.
This is pretty much a crock of ****. EVE is a very different sort of game, digital anarchy if you will (anarchy from an anarchist's point of view rather than the mainstream media's "total chaos"). There are rules, but you very much follow the laws of the jungle.
When playing my "main" I am a ruthless samurai and a complete **** in high-sec. I love the quick 1v1 of honorable frigate combat (and surprisingly, I love losing as much as winning. KMs are for idiots) as much as I love ruining someone's night.
When playing my "alt" and making money, I stay out of other people's business and skulk around on the fringe of society. I would only defend my boat, no reason to stir the pot.
EVE is a game. You can change your play style just like changing a coat.
Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 22:21:00 -
[94] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:The Apostle wrote:Kietay Ayari wrote:I have a hard time believing anyone who plays EVE is half as scary as the cookie monster ;D and a third as tough as they say they are! Actually I've seen photos of Mittens and in (my) RL, pastey face dweebs like him would be tromped on, beaten up and we'd use what's left of his shirt to polish our belt buckles. In Eve, he's in charge of some of the baddest boys in town. The movie, "Revenge of the Nerds" springs to mind  Oh look, an Internet Tough Guy. Well you better hush boy, because I'm 7 feet tall, I can bench press a bungalow and I have to use a special Titanium toilet because I **** armor piercing cannon rounds and fart phosgene. (My secret identity is that of a slightly tubby 40 year old logistics guy but don't be fooled)
Pah, you know Riddick? That isn-¦t actually a fictional movie, but a documentary about me.
For the Op: humans are as5holes by default, and here in eve they can act upon it.
http://www.cracked.com/article_16239_5-psychological-experiments-that-prove-humanity-doomed_p2.html
"You either need less science fiction or more medication."
"Or less medication and more ammo!" |
Killstealing
Broski Enterprises
Elite Space Guild
106
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 22:30:00 -
[95] - Quote
i have no honrour |
Solo Player
46
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 22:41:00 -
[96] - Quote
Paragon Renegade wrote:But............... [i]
OP, try to compartmentalize; this isn't ant RPG like Mass Effect, where moral choices have actual repercussions.
But they have. At least in the game. That miner will be devastated about her loss. And so will her player. He will really hate you (not just your character) for what you have done, and he will not just forget about it in the next round of the game.
A lot of you argue at every corner how EVE is NOT a game, but a sandbox. And you are correct about it. It may not be of sand and not even real in a material sense, but the work those who create put into it is real.
Their sand castles are their accomplishments, and they do exist, even if it is just in a game. Some of them may be unique masterpieces. Until along comes a griefer and tramples it into the ground.
Can you really say that morality does not come into play with sandbox bullies? |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness
The Midget Mafia
208
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 22:43:00 -
[97] - Quote
Huehuehue wrote:I know this is going to be a controversial topic (mostly everyone vs. me I think...) but please read trough. This is not a troll attempt of kind, but this is an attempt to generate discussion on this topic.
It seems to me that most of EVE player community seems to think , even if they don't do this themselves, that it's okay to shoot down a lone miner or missioner in low sec, steal ore, threaten someone for money etc. "It's part of the game, deal with it" is what I hear most of the time. The question I want to ask you is this: Why do you leave your morality at login screen? Don't get me wrong, pvp and such is obviously okay when both parties do it for fun and enjoyment, which is the case with most pvp in EVE. Sure, no one likes to lose but that's part of the fun too. But when you kill a lone miner who's not even in a player corp that's just evil. You don't see people saying "well he shouldn't whine it's part of the life" if a guy wanders in bad part of the town and gets beat up do you? How would like it if I came up to you and beat you up, afterwards saying "hey don't get mad, god (aka the lead dev of life ;) ) made this possible so it's cool!". You don't see theist go around saying **** like that do you?
It's so easy to be an ******* to people when you both are anonymous and it's never going to get back you. What marks a real good and moral person is his ability sympathize with others regardless of the fact who and where the other person is. "It's part of the game" is just really really bad excuse for behaving like an ******* and makes me wonder if these people are just as bad irl, or do express their inner ******* online because they don't have the balls to do it irl? I know I'd much rather just say hi to that lonely miner than blow him to pieces just because.
why are you to chicken to post with your main?
anyhow, its mindless escapism, just like any other mass entertainment, the idea is to be something DIFFERENT than who you really are, or possibly not.
ITS A GAME!
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
I Accidentally YourShip
Suzuka Heavy Industries
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 22:51:00 -
[98] - Quote
Occasionally when I suicide gank, I have to remind myself that it's just a game before I blow their ship out of the sky as I feel a slight pang of guilt. This is not often, usually it's just evil laughter, but occasionally that irritating morality kicks in and I think about the other person. I push that aside for the greater good though, protecting the defenseless asteroids. |
Oswald Patsee
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 22:53:00 -
[99] - Quote
"Morality" is the wrong word. It's a game and people play games to escape from reality. It's a chance for people to be something different without the consequences and limitations that curb behaviors in the real world.
Having said that, I think the real question here is "Why do people in EVE (and other MMO's turn into total assh@les at the drop of a hat?". The answer is the same as above: It's a chance for people to be something different without the consequences and limitations that curb behaviors in the real world.
I suspect that a lot of people become assh@les in game because they cannot do so in real life. The usual result of being a d*ck in the real world is usually getting your ass kicked by someone who is an even bigger tool than you are. This is the wonderful world of online gaming and MMO's, and most R /L people are bigger and stronger than the subscriber base. Just take a look at the guys in the audince at some of the Goonswarm meets posted on Youtube.
Not all EVE gamers mind you. I just suspect that a lot of the people trying to force their will in this game are the kinds of people that get picked on a lot in real life.
My .02
Commence flames. |
Running Clam
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 22:53:00 -
[100] - Quote
Because e-honor is a sack of **** created by carebears so pirates could have morals, If i was a immortal space ship flying pirate IRL i would not give a **** about "morals" |
Nyla Skin
Pew Pew Corp
Behold.
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 22:59:00 -
[101] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:I feel like Role Playing the Villain in this MMORPG.
Video Games would be less interesting without villains.
Well said!
Even though I prefer to toy with people who can defend themselves.. |
I Accidentally YourShip
Suzuka Heavy Industries
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 23:07:00 -
[102] - Quote
Sebastian N Cain wrote:Malcanis wrote:The Apostle wrote:Kietay Ayari wrote:I have a hard time believing anyone who plays EVE is half as scary as the cookie monster ;D and a third as tough as they say they are! Actually I've seen photos of Mittens and in (my) RL, pastey face dweebs like him would be tromped on, beaten up and we'd use what's left of his shirt to polish our belt buckles. In Eve, he's in charge of some of the baddest boys in town. The movie, "Revenge of the Nerds" springs to mind Oh look, an Internet Tough Guy. Well you better hush boy, because I'm 7 feet tall, I can bench press a bungalow and I have to use a special Titanium toilet because I **** armor piercing cannon rounds and fart phosgene. (My secret identity is that of a slightly tubby 40 year old logistics guy but don't be fooled) Pah, you know Riddick? That isn-¦t actually a fictional movie, but a documentary about me. For the Op: humans are as5holes by default, and here in eve they can act upon it. http://www.cracked.com/article_16239_5-psychological-experiments-that-prove-humanity-doomed_p2.html
I'm quite surprised that people were able to do that to a puppy, but I'm not surprised that 46% of men refused to shock the puppy while all women went through with it. The experiment is based on coercion and women are the more submissive gender on average.
As for the prison trial, which is closer to the "immorality" in EVE, the first time I heard about that I was surprised how quickly cultural pressures degraded and humans acted more like animals. |
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
34
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 23:12:00 -
[103] - Quote
Huehuehue wrote:But when you kill a lone miner who's not even in a player corp that's just evil.
Not, it's not.
Today, they are a lone miner, tomorrow they could run a huge alliance.
Stop thinking small.
Everyone in New Eden is connected, but we are all still human beings sat behind a keyboard.
The most 'famous' residents of New Eden do not have special powers, they are just players like you and just like the person mining Trit in a new player corp - the only difference between them and you is choice.
You either choose to fight back, muster some friends and generally take advantage of the MMO element, or you continually repeat the same pattern without change and hope for a different result.
If you choose the latter, then I do not know what to tell you - I will not criticise you for making the choice you have, no more than you have the god-damn right, balls and shear fuckin' outright audacity to come to these forums and criticise other for choosing the former.
This is what people mean when they say 'you do not get this game', because they are absolutely right; you do not get this game.
If you lose a ship, it's your fault.
Sometimes it's your fault for picking the wrong friends, mostly is because you beleived you didn't need them - you do.
"Friends in New Eden are people who are more profitable to keep alive"
Reynir Hardarson
GÇ£You go into combat, and itGÇÖs NOT going to be WagnerGǪindustrial techno or really hard drum and bassGÇ¥
Reynir Hardarson, founding member of CCP Games, 2002. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration
98
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 23:21:00 -
[104] - Quote
In the real world I find it's in your interest, not just as a person but also someone who is working to get ahead, to be nice to everyone and always ensure you are delivering the best you can to your clients and coworkers. Ultimately your reputation is something you only get one-of... there are no alts in real life and there are definite consequences for douchebaggery.
In eve... there is no law. Evil is allowed to thrive. Alts and a "lower bar" on morality combine to render a reputation nearly meaningless in all but a few contexts (secured 3rd party traders and the like). In this internet universe, the risks to one's person is insignificant relative to the potential payout of successful evil. Therefor, I've found it behooves one to take every shot they can, work every angle they can imagine, and forget any notion of morality or "good."
That, and particularly when you are a relatively good person in RL, it's kind of fun to play on the 'dark side' for a change... just to see what your evil can do 
All GëíGêçGëí Ships | Many Odd GëíGêçGëí Items (+Drones) | <-- Links to showInfo in-game |
Pinaculus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 23:52:00 -
[105] - Quote
@ the OP:
I avoided EVE for a long time because, though I dig Sci-Fi, it was billed as a "Hardcore PVP Game." Over time my tastes changed a little, and I eventually subscribed. This was 2008. EVE was still billed as a "Hardcore PVP Game." I don't pvp much (read: at all). I don't seek out pvp, but I understand that pvp can come find me at any time. Because EVE is a "Hardcore PVP Game." Like it was since the first day.
To sum up: If you're participating in the EVE universe in any fashion, you have indirectly consented to PVP. Markets, ships, ganks, politicking, whatever. Because EVE is a PVP game, and always has been. Even for lone miners and mission farmers. It isn't about morality. You're just doing it wrong. |
Kiyl
No Bullshit
Jokers Wild.
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 00:02:00 -
[106] - Quote
It is kind of funny, PvPers using ships to blow up the people that made em. Miners should just stop for a week and see how badly the market falls lol... |
Shadow Lord77
Shadow Corporation Confederacy
51
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 00:12:00 -
[107] - Quote
Instead of morality. Write kindness. |
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries
SRS.
20
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 00:12:00 -
[108] - Quote
Quote:It is kind of funny, PvPers using ships to blow up the people that made em. Miners should just stop for a week and see how badly the market falls lol...
What would be even more funny (and likely) is when that happened and the market went up like 25% and nobody cared.
|
Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 00:17:00 -
[109] - Quote
Clearly footballers who score goals have no morality on the pitch. This is terrible. |
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 00:22:00 -
[110] - Quote
Wait..are you really doing this? You want a morality debate from a bunch of randy's (random online entity's) about how they act in a space ship game? Who cares really, just blow them up before they blow you up is my motto. How they act in RL doesn't matter one bit, but in the universe of Eve..that's a different story.
Oderint Dum Metuant |
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries
SRS.
20
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 00:24:00 -
[111] - Quote
The unique thing about Eve is that friends are required for any real success or security. The result of that is that you also tend to form some very close and trusting friendships. You can't have one without the other, the reason why large betrayals are news in Eve is because that trust they broke is actually important.
A lone miner without any friends lost eve way before they lost that mining ship. Go join a corp, train some weapons, matter to someone, build friendships. Eve is a horrible "game", but its the best social sandbox in existence.
|
Michael Turate
The Bembridge Mining Company
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 00:38:00 -
[112] - Quote
There are some people who try to play this game as honourable Jedi Knights - they are amounst the most fail people I've met in the game, their tears are probably the most delicious. |
Mortis vonShadow
Balanaz Mining and Development Inc.
223
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 00:49:00 -
[113] - Quote
Covert Kitty wrote:
A lone miner without any friends lost eve way before they lost that mining ship.
I'm a lone miner. Will you be my friend?
Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen.
-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á And some days, you're just a man with a gun. |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova
Vera Cruz Alliance
258
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 00:53:00 -
[114] - Quote
Why do people play Grand Theft Auto? The difference here is that i'm not running over AI.. i'm running over real people. Virtually, of course..
If i could DRIVE OVER VIRTUAL people in the REAL world, i would. So if i can't, i'll do the next best thing. I'll DRIVE OVER REAL people in the VIRTUAL world.
You don't like it you either HTFU or you go play another game. This one is like this, has been like this since it was created. We came here because of that.
Rated ARG for Pirates. **** you. |
Kietay Ayari
Monopoly Money Operations
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 00:55:00 -
[115] - Quote
Michael Turate wrote:There are some people who try to play this game as honourable Jedi Knights - they are amounst the most fail people I've met in the game, their tears are probably the most delicious.
For some reason I laugh out loud whenever I read those exact words. Not meant as an insult! I just imagine someone literally eating tears and finding them delicious and its a little comedic! I tend to read them about once a day which is more than I usually laugh so EVE forums are pretty good!
I'd still like to know why people started saying it in the first place though. Its a prettttty abstract way of saying you enjoy when someone is miserable (for silly reasons or not). :O
Ferox #1 |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova
Vera Cruz Alliance
260
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 00:59:00 -
[116] - Quote
Kietay Ayari wrote:Michael Turate wrote:There are some people who try to play this game as honourable Jedi Knights - they are amounst the most fail people I've met in the game, their tears are probably the most delicious. For some reason I laugh out loud whenever I read those exact words. Not meant as an insult! I just imagine someone literally eating tears and finding them delicious and its a little comedic! I tend to read them about once a day which is more than I usually laugh so EVE forums are pretty good! I'd still like to know why people started saying it in the first place though. Its a prettttty abstract way of saying you enjoy when someone is miserable (for silly reasons or not). :O
The ones who love it the most are the ones who are most miserable in real life. Of course, they will never admit it because more often then not they don't realize it themselves.
I'm the first one to say that i just love being a jerk in EVE after i had a nasty day at work.
Rated ARG for Pirates. **** you. |
Aggressive Nutmeg
13
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 01:03:00 -
[117] - Quote
Do we really want to discuss morality in a computer game? Ah what the heck. I'll give it a crack.
Sadly, morality is seen by most people as being tied to consequences. And I submit this thread as 'Exhibit A', Your Honour.
But how can your actions be moral if you're only doing something out of a fear of consequences? Your actions can only have moral worth when you do the right thing because you know it is the right thing to do - and you do it for no other reason.
It makes me wonder how much morality there is in mainstream religions when they go on about the reward of Heaven and the punishment of Hell and the fear of God. I suspect mainstream religion is more about controlling the masses rather than creating better human beings.
Personally, I think there is nothing more noble than an atheist who chooses to live a moral life despite no hope of reward and no fear of punishment. This is about as high up the moral food chain as a human being can get. Of course, if that's your thinking in choosing that path - wanting to be 'morally better' than everyone else - then the moral worth of your chosen path becomes invalidated. Morality is all about intentions, not actions.
When I started playing EVE, I imagined it would be a realistic simulation of what a space-faring life might be like in the future. It took me a little while to adjust.
I now like the fact that EVE is a primitive, lawless universe with more than its fair share of immature, toxic individuals. EVE gives every player the opportunity to make choices which are free of consequences. This is a freedom you don't get in the real world.
The game mechanics do not provide any real consequences for behaviour that would be considered 'evil' in the real world.
So given there are no real consequences for your actions, what kind of player do you choose to be?
I look at EVE as one big moral experiment. It's fascinating to see how people behave in this moral vacuum. I'm also fascinated by my own behaviour. |
Barbelo Valentinian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
104
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 01:45:00 -
[118] - Quote
Aggressive Nutmeg wrote:Do we really want to discuss morality in a computer game? Ah what the heck. I'll give it a crack.
Sadly, morality is seen by most people as being tied to consequences. And I submit this thread as 'Exhibit A', Your Honour.
But how can your actions be moral if you're only doing something out of a fear of consequences? Your actions can only have moral worth when you do the right thing because you know it is the right thing to do - and you do it for no other reason.
But how, Mr Kant, do you know it's the right thing to do? I submit - by the consequences
Yes, EVE is a hellhole because there are no consequences; but there being consequences as a result of trackable identity and permadeath is what makes real life different. But that's precisely what makes EVE totally unrealistic as a simulation. EVE actually tells us very little about human nature, precisely because human nature is tied up with trackable identity, responisiblity, awareness of permadeath. Should technology change such that these change, then human nature will change.
Anyway (rambling on), it is, as people rightly say, a game.
A game in which you can hurt people in a small way and enjoy it, a game in which hurting people is sanctioned by the rules - AND VOLUNTARILY AGREED TO.
Compare and contrast: one could say to a Dominatrix "how can you hurt that poor barrister?" But of course he's entered into a voluntary agreement with her.
Yes, EVE is like S&M, it's a voluntarily-engaged-in game of inficting and avoiding pain.
Let's not be hypocritical about it - the whole point is to inflict pain, so those who mock people who are hurting from the game for taking pixels seriously are on the wrong track. People are supposed to take their pixels seriously, that's the whole point, that's what makes it hurt, that's what gets the adrenaline pumping.
It's really just that there's a culture in EVE simlilar to the macho culture surrounding drink and drugs. You're supposed to be able to "handle" your drink and drugs - i.e. behave elegantly no matter how sloshed you are. Likewise, you're supposed to bounce back quick from a loss and not make too much of a fuss about it ("cry"), if you don't you're not "manly" in EVE terms. |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
795
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 01:49:00 -
[119] - Quote
Aggressive Nutmeg wrote:.......I look at EVE as one big moral experiment. It's fascinating to see how people behave in this moral vacuum. I'm also fascinated by my own behaviour.
Good post. +1
As an atheist in Eve, (really, I don't need spectres, I've got G**ns to guide me) I fully endorse being good for goodness sake.
But seriously, with so much death, war, destruction, immorality, mayhem and crime - in RL - I play Eve because it mimics RL so well.
Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest.
WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
|
Basileus Volkan
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
63
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 01:50:00 -
[120] - Quote
It's only natural to be pissed about an unexpected loss. The problem is that a lot of people, especially in Highsec, adopted an attitude where every loss is unexpected while in the games reality, if you pay attention, no loss of ship and pod should come as a surprise.
The fundamental truth of EvE is that some people win and some people lose, as opposed to more "vanilla" games like WoW where essentially nobody ever loses. |
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