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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2011.10.31 12:17:00 -
[181] - Quote
For the same reason people decided it is ok to massaker virtual characters in fps games. |
Vigdis Thorisdottir
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
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Posted - 2011.10.31 12:28:00 -
[182] - Quote
Quote: EDIT: Incidentally, you forgot to mention what you thought about those violent, murderous racketeers in the so called "sporting community". Perhaps you could make a start there.
Professional athletes make for a poor analogy. Most are not doing what they do for "tears". Many are friends off the field, and usually there aren't hard feelings against the other team afterwards (most frustration is directed towards themselves, for not playing well enough). You don't see players rage against other players like some do in Eve unless there have been some sportsmanship issues. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1070
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Posted - 2011.10.31 12:33:00 -
[183] - Quote
Vigdis Thorisdottir wrote:You don't see players rage against other players like some do in Eve unless there have been some sportsmanship issues. Well, maybe if they stopped complaining about how the rules made them lose and actually showed the trait of sportsmanship called being a good loser, the tears wouldn't be around any moreGǪ
The fun thing about people doing it GÇ£for tearsGÇ¥ is that they're so ridiculously easy to win against. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Twisted Alice
The Scope Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2011.10.31 12:39:00 -
[184] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vigdis Thorisdottir wrote:You don't see players rage against other players like some do in Eve unless there have been some sportsmanship issues. Well, maybe if they stopped complaining about how the rules made them lose and actually showed the trait of sportsmanship called being a good loser, the tears wouldn't be around any moreGǪ The fun thing about people doing it Gǣfor tearsGǥ is that they're so ridiculously easy to win against.
That's not true, ganking people has nothing to do with sportsmanship, but it is about the tears (griefing people) which is allowed in the rules as long as it's using the game mechanics. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1070
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Posted - 2011.10.31 12:47:00 -
[185] - Quote
Twisted Alice wrote:That's not true, ganking people has nothing to do with sportsmanship, but it is about the tears (griefing people) which is allowed in the rules as long as it's using the game mechanics. I think you missed who I was talking about when mentioning being sportsmanlikeGǪ
But you do illustrate the other point: how ridiculously easy it is to win against those who harvest tears.
Finally, no, griefing is not allowed, and doing it outisde of the intended game mechanics just makes it not allowed in two different ways. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
898
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Posted - 2011.10.31 12:48:00 -
[186] - Quote
Vigdis Thorisdottir wrote:Quote: EDIT: Incidentally, you forgot to mention what you thought about those violent, murderous racketeers in the so called "sporting community". Perhaps you could make a start there.
Professional athletes make for a poor analogy. Most are not doing what they do for "tears". Many are friends off the field, and usually there aren't hard feelings against the other team afterwards (most frustration is directed towards themselves, for not playing well enough). You don't see players rage against other players like some do in Eve unless there have been some sportsmanship issues.
What difference does that make? Really, are you saying that it's OK to blow someone's ship up in EVE as long as I don't enjoy it? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Zombatar
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2011.10.31 13:18:00 -
[187] - Quote
If you enjoy killing peeps in EVE that have no chance to strike back or at least be able to fight then you should take a loot in the mirror and ask yourself what kind of a person you are?
My issue is with people that take pleasure in the pain of others, especially on those that did absolutely nothing to warrant such action. One is a competitive game where we all fight for something and another is when you feel good to cause pain. The underling idea is the motivation behind your actions.
OP is right to question some behaviour in EVE as a RL issue. |
Gradien Gaterau
I N E X T R E M I S clone
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 13:21:00 -
[188] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:There are no real consequences, so there is no real morality. Games are not real. Do not confuse player behaviour with real person behaviour.
So you spend time on something that isnt real? Do you visit your doctor on a regular basis? Games are real, you meant to say they are virtual instead. Im running a big group of virtual servers, doesnt mean they arent real.
Player behaviour and real person behaviour are also the same in heart, the fact that one holds concequenses and the other does not has alot of effect on the matter. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1072
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 13:25:00 -
[189] - Quote
Zombatar wrote:If you enjoy killing peeps in EVE that have no chance to strike back or at least be able to fight then you should take a loot in the mirror and ask yourself what kind of a person you are? And the answer is: someone who enjoys playing games.
Quote:My issue is with people that take pleasure in the pain of others [GǪ] OP is right to question some behaviour in EVE as a RL issue. Yes, but the issue here is that some people have such a hard time to make the disconnect between game and reality that they feel pain when their pixels get exploded. They really shouldn't be playing EVE (or any other game for that matter) until they've had that sorted GÇö modern therapy can work wonders at times. For the rest of us, the problem is that there is no way to tell before-hand who suffers from this illness and who doesn't, and even if we did, not shooting them wouldn't really be a solution since the problem is that they're in the game with that illness to begin with.
MeestaPenni wrote:I like how the phrase "not reality, it's a game" gets tossed out here. That only makes sense if you're able to completely dehumanize the other players, or if it was purely NPCs being opposed.
The fact of the matter is, it is reality. There is another person on the other keyboard....... GǪand it is impossible to hurt them unless they are unable to separate game from reality and instead take everything done to them as a real affront. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Halcyon Ingenium
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2011.10.31 13:25:00 -
[190] - Quote
Huehuehue wrote:Player morality in EVE online. Why did you leave it at the door?
Because I can.
Because it is a game which allows me to.
Because only the ill prepared, careless and stupid need fear me.
But mostly because I can.
The loser in any fight consols himself with a moral victory. Thus is the beginning of slave-morality. |
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Zombatar
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2011.10.31 13:31:00 -
[191] - Quote
Halcyon Ingenium wrote:Huehuehue wrote:Player morality in EVE online. Why did you leave it at the door? Because I can. Because it is a game which allows me to. Because only the ill prepared, careless and stupid need fear me. But mostly because I can.
Next time when you rob a bank or kill someone, just because you can, maybe you will realise the gravity of your statement.
This is the biggest fail of humanity, we do things JUST BECAUSE WE CAN, most of them bad ones.
I pity you. |
Halcyon Ingenium
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 13:33:00 -
[192] - Quote
Zombatar wrote:Halcyon Ingenium wrote:Huehuehue wrote:Player morality in EVE online. Why did you leave it at the door? Because I can. Because it is a game which allows me to. Because only the ill prepared, careless and stupid need fear me. But mostly because I can. Next time when you rob a bank or kill someone, just because you can, maybe you will realise the gravity of your statement. This is the biggest fail of humanity, we do things JUST BECAUSE WE CAN, most of them bad ones. I pity you.
See my quote below. Then stop gaming and seek therapy.
The loser in any fight consols himself with a moral victory. Thus is the beginning of slave-morality. |
Vigdis Thorisdottir
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
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Posted - 2011.10.31 13:39:00 -
[193] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Vigdis Thorisdottir wrote:Quote: EDIT: Incidentally, you forgot to mention what you thought about those violent, murderous racketeers in the so called "sporting community". Perhaps you could make a start there.
Professional athletes make for a poor analogy. Most are not doing what they do for "tears". Many are friends off the field, and usually there aren't hard feelings against the other team afterwards (most frustration is directed towards themselves, for not playing well enough). You don't see players rage against other players like some do in Eve unless tthere have been some sportsmanship issues. What difference does that make? Really, are you saying that it's OK to blow someone's ship up in EVE as long as I don't enjoy it?
I'm not trying to make any points aside from pointing out that your sport analogy is a poor one. So no, it doesn't make a difference, because the whole sport scenario is not especially applicable to the conversation. That is, unless every player looked at Eve as a sport, which is not the case. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1072
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 13:45:00 -
[194] - Quote
Vigdis Thorisdottir wrote:I'm not trying to make any points aside from pointing out that your sport analogy is a poor one. So no, it doesn't make a difference, because the whole sport scenario is not especially applicable to the conversation. That is, unless every player looked at Eve as a sport, which is not the case. He's making the analogy sport = game. What you're saying, then, basically confirms that the problem is that some people have lost sight of the fact EVE is a gameGǪ GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Lharanai
Empyrean Guard
33
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Posted - 2011.10.31 14:06:00 -
[195] - Quote
XIRUSPHERE wrote:Morality is merely a human construct upon the foundation of reality. The world of man is infinitely more immoral than any possible action that can be taken in a game. Most choose to insulate themselves from this reality and easily so in a world full of false and misleading ideals and information control.
Be thankful this is nothing but a shadow of the true depravity of our species. We are nothing more than apex predators who are still in the infancy of civilization, your morality is a social adaptation towards self preservation and preservation of the species and nothing more.
/signed but you missed a point
I agree that morality is a system we need in RL for self preservation, but sorry we are NOT altruistic enough for our whole species :)
The world is not fair*, and law is biased towards the rich or the man with the most guns. But in EVE the law is the same for everyone (DEVs excluded :), you are not judged by your background, many of us are villains in EVE because here we are not bound by the moralities forced (law) or conditioned (religion**) in RL onto us, we create our own moralities.
AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART
We CAN create our own moralities and we have the mobility to find people which share our concept of morality, and this in a very convenient way without any consequences in RL
*Sorry but whoever believes that Hollywood BS that the good always win is a fool or a dreamer***
**no OFFENSE if you are religious, but just look at the history of each religion and you have to admit that besides believe, religions has one major function, stabilize a set society and their rulers. And I say conditioned because religion is in general a system which is established in our childhood BEFORE we have the experience, knowledge to make our own decision.
*** in which case I am jealous Touch my **** and I will **** your **** with an rusty **** and **** into your ****, and then I will **** your **** until you ******************** |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
110
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 14:19:00 -
[196] - Quote
Moral people give into their greatest weakness: morals.
I can do to you what your morality tells you you can't do to me. I intend to exploit that to the fullest. 10/19 2011 - never forget the 20%
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Riedle
Paradox Collective
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 14:19:00 -
[197] - Quote
Zombatar wrote:If you enjoy killing peeps in EVE that have no chance to strike back or at least be able to fight then you should take a loot in the mirror and ask yourself what kind of a person you are?
My issue is with people that take pleasure in the pain of others, especially on those that did absolutely nothing to warrant such action. One is a competitive game where we all fight for something and another is when you feel good to cause pain. The underling idea is the motivation behind your actions.
OP is right to question some behaviour in EVE as a RL issue.
Who speaks for the Mackinaws????
Lol
Hard to believe that there are people as shallow as this that genuinely think that anyone who blows up their pixel ship in an internet spaceship game about blowing up pixel ships, thinks that the perpetrator is therefore a psychopath.
I mean, there are people that dumb in this world?
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Alpheias
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
110
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 14:20:00 -
[198] - Quote
doublepost 10/19 2011 - never forget the 20%
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engjin
The Konvergent League Shades of Gray
7
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Posted - 2011.10.31 14:22:00 -
[199] - Quote
I don't believe you can nor should you form an opinion on the what someone is like in RL just by the type of character they play in game. Reading this thread reminded me of something someone told me in another MMO I played.
In that other MMO we played the 'evil' guy a lot of people are talking about and one day I asked him why he chose to play that way. He's a lawyer in RL and he said he needs to sit and keep his mouth shut all day when dealing with clients. At home he gets to log in and 'scream'. Playing the game is his, "mental bubblegum"
I think the same is true in eve (most of the time). Some of the nicest people I have met in the game have/ or tried to gank me. I thank them everyday for making the game so much fun. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
168
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Posted - 2011.10.31 14:38:00 -
[200] - Quote
Zombatar wrote:Flame me all you want. The beauty of EVE is that you can inflict pain to others in very nasty ways IF YOU CHOSE TO, showing how good/bad you really are in RL. Its not a simple shooter where the whole purpose of the game is the SAME for all participants - kill others.
I choose to engage in PvP and shoot only reds/pirates that is a BIG difference from engaging a solo miner in high sec for the LOLS.
Those pirates that do that deserve to be called pirates and shot at by CONCORD and me.
Stop finding excuses for your low life actions in EVE, they define you and you hate to admit that you like to make people suffer. You guys are very dangerous people in RL if tomorrow there would be no police to stop your crave.
If anyone is caused actual pain because of something that happens to them in game, that is their fault for being WAY too emotionally invested and they need help.
I'm sorry, but there is no debate possible on this point. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
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Jenshae Chiroptera
92
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Posted - 2011.10.31 14:55:00 -
[201] - Quote
Only scrambled one pod and never shot a miner or indy. I feel guilty for shooting worm hole dwellers and they can shoot back. CSM do you think? No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
Wacktopia
Sicarius. Legion of The Damned.
21
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Posted - 2011.10.31 15:08:00 -
[202] - Quote
- Friends in EVE I consider as if friends IRL - This is a ROLE PLAYING game so everyone else is my enemy and THE SCUM OF THE UNIVERSE MOHAHAHA.
That is all.
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Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
20
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Posted - 2011.10.31 15:14:00 -
[203] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Only scrambled one pod and never shot a miner or indy. I feel guilty for shooting worm hole dwellers and they can shoot back.
The word "guilty" is what has the majority of us worried in this statement. For example
I kill noobies in lowsec frequently. Usually I am also able to nab their pod. I try not to actually pod new players. Is this a moral standpoint? Do you think i feel bad for blowing up someone who was ill-equipped to come to low sec? NO
I try not to blow up their pod (i offer other alternatives) because I want them to come back at some point and try again. I want people to learn and give me challenging fights. Most of the time I chat with them after our business to give them more information on what they were doing and about having reasonable expectations. My corp is dedicated to this as well. This isn't because I have a good feeling when I do it, its because it promotes a healthy pew pew environment for everyone, which is how I enjoy this sandbox.
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Lavititcus
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 15:18:00 -
[204] - Quote
anyone noticed he hasn't posted in a while? i like being a pirate. (one who extorts money from another under the threat of violence) that being said, i generally run lvl 4 missions as my primary income. i just like to give someone running them in lowsec a good jump and scare once in a while. :) i have had many lengthy and friendly conversations with pilots that i pirate/ransom. hell, one them joined my corp, and has never stopped thanking me for introducing him to the adrenaline of EvE pvp piracy. Everyone who has paid me ransom to not blow up their shiny ship also gets friendly advice (should have watched your directional, here's how you setup your overview, fight aligned whenever possible...) because i am not a bad person. These are the game moments which define our gaming experience. We hear about how hard life in EvE is, and we teach it to the unwary, to those with an over developed sense of entitlement. I have earned every victory and every defeat. Have learned from them. Some here (OP included), have choose to miss the intent of the lesson in favor of chewing on their text books...
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Cearain
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
70
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Posted - 2011.10.31 15:24:00 -
[205] - Quote
Huehuehue wrote:I know this is going to be a controversial topic (mostly everyone vs. me I think...) but please read trough. This is not a troll attempt of kind, but this is an attempt to generate discussion on this topic.
It seems to me that most of EVE player community seems to think , even if they don't do this themselves, that it's okay to shoot down a lone miner or missioner in low sec, steal ore, threaten someone for money etc. "It's part of the game, deal with it" is what I hear most of the time. The question I want to ask you is this: Why do you leave your morality at login screen? Don't get me wrong, pvp and such is obviously okay when both parties do it for fun and enjoyment, which is the case with most pvp in EVE. Sure, no one likes to lose but that's part of the fun too. But when you kill a lone miner who's not even in a player corp that's just evil. .....
When you play chess do you get upset if someone "captures" one of your pawns without any justification? Is that immoral? Why not? Answer: because its part of the game.
Pvp *is* part of the game.
That said I do not leave my morality at the door. I still don't lie to people on vent or in game for my personal gain. I don't think thats part of the game. Thats just lying for your own gain. People can claim all they want that they are really honest people who would never lie outside of eve even though they lie and cheat people in the game. I tend to doubt this is true for the vast majority of them.
By promoting this type of behavior (which is mostly done out of game via vent servers etc.) I think CCP does eve a disservice.
I will say the issue is a bit complicated.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
25
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Posted - 2011.10.31 15:39:00 -
[206] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Yes, but the issue here is that some people have such a hard time to make the disconnect between game and reality that they feel pain when their pixels get exploded.
I don't know why I would bother, but....do you not see the inverse of that? A position that is no less valid? Take the very end of that sentence and reword it....."that they feel elation when they explode someone's pixels".
If the ganker or griefer can feel real life elation and joy at blowing up another real person's "pixels", why isn't it just as valid for the other person to be pissed and angry? Why is that somehow an emotional flaw?
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Rellik B00n
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage
11
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Posted - 2011.10.31 15:43:00 -
[207] - Quote
Huehuehue wrote:IThe question I want to ask you is this: Why do you leave your morality at login screen?
Its a game, and the nature of the game has been (until recently) that eve is a 'cold harsh universe.'
I think that even if people dont buy into the whole "I AM CROWN PRINCE MUJARI THE THIRD OF AMARR AND YOU GALLENTE SCUM WILL FEEL THE RIGHTEOUS WRATH OF THE TRUE EMPIRE" side of role-playing they do buy into the nature of the game.
By agreeing to play you effectively say "I agree I live in a cold, harsh universe where the weak will perish, and the cunning and stong will survive." - its like an extra part to the EULA.
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Carceret Rinah
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2011.10.31 15:47:00 -
[208] - Quote
Perhaps people only behave "morally" in real life because of external pressure to do so - the law, peer/family pressure, the threat of reprisal. So, they come to EVE for an escape from the strictures that force them to "play nice", and let their real selves show. Humanity is pretty sick, IMO, what with all the rapists, murderers, pedophiles, child snipers, torturers, enslavers, disabled-abusers, authority-abusers, scammers, terrorists, warlords, drug addicts, drug traffickers, human traffickers, self-mutilators, and celebrity dancers you can see polluting the news every single day.
Is it seriously any surprise that your average EVE player might like to pop a lowsec miner one in a while? |
Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
20
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Posted - 2011.10.31 15:50:00 -
[209] - Quote
MeestaPenni wrote:Tippia wrote:Yes, but the issue here is that some people have such a hard time to make the disconnect between game and reality that they feel pain when their pixels get exploded. I don't know why I would bother, but....do you not see the inverse of that? A position that is no less valid? Take the very end of that sentence and reword it....."that they feel elation when they explode someone's pixels". If the ganker or griefer can feel real life elation and joy at blowing up another real person's "pixels", why isn't it just as valid for the other person to be pissed and angry? Why is that somehow an emotional flaw?
Its not going to be the elements of playing a game that are the issue (positive or negative). Using Risk as an example. If I wipe another player off the map, I am probably going to feel excitement and satisfaction off of my victory. Likewise, my opponent will probably defeated and slightly down about not having one. However, unless they are crazy, both players realized this result when they started the game, and walk away from it having overall enjoyed the experience.
Lets put this into the realm that the OP is now in the same example. I kill off my opponent. I run around chanting that I am the champion while pelvic thrusting. Until the next time we play I continue to do this. I probably need help and I am defintely an asshat.
On the other side, if my opponent throws the board across the room and threatens me, or even just calls me an immoral ******* for breaking the treaty we had N.America and S.America then he is likely in need of help.
We plays games for the satisfaction of winning and losing, but to exaggerate whats going on to the realm of morals is absolutely ridiculous, even when the game is extremely complex.
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Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 15:54:00 -
[210] - Quote
Huehuehue wrote:I know this is going to be a controversial topic (mostly everyone vs. me I think...) but please read trough. This is not a troll attempt of kind, but this is an attempt to generate discussion on this topic.
It seems to me that most of EVE player community seems to think , even if they don't do this themselves, that it's okay to shoot down a lone miner or missioner in low sec, steal ore, threaten someone for money etc. "It's part of the game, deal with it" is what I hear most of the time. The question I want to ask you is this: Why do you leave your morality at login screen? Don't get me wrong, pvp and such is obviously okay when both parties do it for fun and enjoyment, which is the case with most pvp in EVE. Sure, no one likes to lose but that's part of the fun too. But when you kill a lone miner who's not even in a player corp that's just evil. You don't see people saying "well he shouldn't whine it's part of the life" if a guy wanders in bad part of the town and gets beat up do you? How would like it if I came up to you and beat you up, afterwards saying "hey don't get mad, god (aka the lead dev of life ;) ) made this possible so it's cool!". You don't see theist go around saying **** like that do you?
It's so easy to be an ******* to people when you both are anonymous and it's never going to get back you. What marks a real good and moral person is his ability sympathize with others regardless of the fact who and where the other person is. "It's part of the game" is just really really bad excuse for behaving like an ******* and makes me wonder if these people are just as bad irl, or do express their inner ******* online because they don't have the balls to do it irl? I know I'd much rather just say hi to that lonely miner than blow him to pieces just because.
Eve is a government sponsored sociology experiment to examine the consequences of releasing the reptilian cloning tech they have been hoarding since WW2.
The experiment has been criticized because it's hard to distinguish between the lack of morality that comes from being an immortal starship captain and the general immorality level of anonymous MMORPG players.
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