Are nullsec POCOs affected by the wardec ownership transfer lockout?

Are nullsec POCOs affected by the wardec ownership transfer lockout?

there is one thing that bothers me:

if the poco can't be transfered during war, that kinda means i can't have
a war-loser transfer his poco (or all his pocos) to me as a reparation payment.
(otherwise i have to drop war first which kinda would allow him to sell 'em to someone else take 'em down or whatever)

so if you really implement this limitation it would be nice if there was at least a "transfer to war oponnent" button or something like that.

there is one thing that bothers me:

if the poco can't be transfered during war, that kinda means i can't have
a war-loser transfer his poco (or all his pocos) to me as a reparation payment.
(otherwise i have to drop war first which kinda would allow him to sell 'em to someone else take 'em down or whatever)

so if you really implement this limitation it would be nice if there was at least a "transfer to war oponnent" button or something like that.

That wouldn't really work. A POCO owner could then have an alt corp be at war with the corp that owns the POCO and then transfer it to the alt corp when the POCO comes under threat.

That wouldn't really work. A POCO owner could then have an alt corp be at war with the corp that owns the POCO and then transfer it to the alt corp when the POCO comes under threat.

So... You're keeping the NPC tax rates on the pocos, even if they're owned by a player?

There doesn't seem to be any incentive to do PI in highsec then since you can probably just find a nice C1, have no tax, and actually just mine the resources yourself.

If you want to remove NPC pocos, remove the NPC tax on pocos as well.

So... You're keeping the NPC tax rates on the pocos, even if they're owned by a player?

There doesn't seem to be any incentive to do PI in highsec then since you can probably just find a nice C1, have no tax, and actually just mine the resources yourself.

If you want to remove NPC pocos, remove the NPC tax on pocos as well.

So does this mean that in order to take down any current HS POCO's, we'll be tanking our standing with Interbus?

The NPC tax will continue for hi sec POCOs (as we want low sec POCOs to still be competitive). The tax rate stays the same, at 10% for export and 5% for import. This is then in addition to whatever tax the player owner sets.

Woo! Feedback time :)

So all that's going to happen is a large nullsec entity hits a whole bunch of highsec customs offices and puts up their own pocos setting 60% tax, meaning I pay 70% tax overall.

It then costs me 500 mill to dec them to hit their poco, which I wont bother doing as to make that back from hisec pi will take months.

So basically your giving large null alliances free isk.

GG

Maybe if you hold sov you shouldn't be able to hold highsec pocos?

Ahem. *cough cough*



Seriously, the CSM is also looking forward to hearing player feedback on this one, particularly on the "null-sec take-over of high-sec POCOs" question that's already come up on page one. Can high-sec entities make it more trouble than it's worth to GSF or other null-sec entities to defend against reinforced POCOs over and over again? Or will the cost of the war-dec itself be the primary shield?

Ahem. *cough cough*



Seriously, the CSM is also looking forward to hearing player feedback on this one, particularly on the "null-sec take-over of high-sec POCOs" question that's already come up on page one. Can high-sec entities make it more trouble than it's worth to GSF or other null-sec entities to defend against reinforced POCOs over and over again? Or will the cost of the war-dec itself be the primary shield?

I hope this works in game like the devs have planned in there heads.

Please also remove the SOV requirement in nullsec to place command centers. This would allow us to open it up based on standings and share planets with people. We can lockout hostiles with 100% tax rates if so desired.

Can I get clarification on the anchoring please (and sorry if this has already been asked).

Do you have to have local faction standing to anchor like you would a pos?

No, no restrictions like that.

What you should really be worried about hasn't even been brought up yet.

Nah, why would we do that? Then no one uses them and we don't actually make any isk for them. Unless you're saying you're dumb enough to pay a 70% tax anyway.

Here's what really happens.

You train the skill right away, lowering the NPC portion of the tax to 5%.

Then, we seize the POCOs right away, at least some of them, and set our own tax to something - probably, as it happens, 5%.

Then RvB or someone contests our pocos and in the ongoing monthlong war, they're constantly being destroyed and reinforced, such that everyone who was using them before moves to different systems.

So... You're keeping the NPC tax rates on the pocos, even if they're owned by a player?

There doesn't seem to be any incentive to do PI in highsec then since you can probably just find a nice C1, have no tax, and actually just mine the resources yourself.

If you want to remove NPC pocos, remove the NPC tax on pocos as well.

Would not make sense for GSF to take over all of the POCO in high sec and raise to taxes to, for example, 70% ? Then no one would use them and the price for PI materials would go up exponentially so GSF could then make excellent profits on their nullsec PI operations.
If this were to happen would the CSM and/or CCP consider this to be a good change ?

About the new skill....

Who has to train it? Is it trained by the CEO and applied to the Corp in the same way as a skill that increases max Corp membership?

If so, do we really need another skill that only a handful of characters will ever train and becomes nearly compulsory in order for the Corp to compete? It just doesn't sound very interesting and will be a barrier to entry for newer players trying to develop their characters/corps.

Nah, why would we do that? Then no one uses them and we don't actually make any isk for them. Unless you're saying you're dumb enough to pay a 70% tax anyway.

Here's what really happens.

You train the skill right away, lowering the NPC portion of the tax to 5%.

Then, we seize the POCOs right away, at least some of them, and set our own tax to something - probably, as it happens, 5%.

Then RvB or someone contests our pocos and in the ongoing monthlong war, they're constantly being destroyed and reinforced, such that everyone who was using them before moves to different systems.

So you pretty much hand over PI to the larger alliances, **** over smaller solo players, and make Hi-sec more like low-sec and null-sec which stupidly is considered a "good thing".

PI was a boring piece of crap anyway so - goodbye PI.

So... You're keeping the NPC tax rates on the pocos, even if they're owned by a player?

There doesn't seem to be any incentive to do PI in highsec then since you can probably just find a nice C1, have no tax, and actually just mine the resources yourself.

If you want to remove NPC pocos, remove the NPC tax on pocos as well.

So what happens when the last InterBus Customs offices gets destroyed?

heaven forbid in this massively multiplayer game one might get advantages from being able to work with other people

In your aka the particularly ugly case of an alliance that is devoted to make the gameplay experience for all people of this game worse and unenjoyable: Yes, definitely heaven forbid. Your attitude alone proves all the negative sentiments against your alliance/coalition.

not all people, just all the people who happen to not be in our alliance or blue list

then GBS LOGISTICS AND FIVES SUPPORT [MY 5S] will own all customs offices ever in the history of ever

There are still lots of InterBus owned customs offices in Low-Sec for you to shoot...

Would not make sense for GSF to take over all of the POCO in high sec and raise to taxes to, for example, 70% ? Then no one would use them and the price for PI materials would go up exponentially so GSF could then make excellent profits on their nullsec PI operations.
If this were to happen would the CSM and/or CCP consider this to be a good change ?

At GSF is admitting that they'll be doing the high sec POCO grab.

Question for CCP:

With POCOs being introduced into high sec does this mean that material amounts that can be obtained from planets in high sec will be raised to the same amounts as can be obtained from low sec planets?

I love how many times people are repeating "but this forces hiseccers to interact!" as if it wasn't the entire point in the first place.

heaven forbid CCP slightly trims the massive amount of cotton wool wrapped around every hisec player and allows groups to compete over assets in hisec

heaven forbid in this massively multiplayer game one might get advantages from being able to work with other people

You're delusional if giving a big alliance a monopoly over a custom's office is "WORKING WITH OTHER PEOPLE"

And PS: by the way, believe it or not, many computer players are SOLO or a few players at best. Not everyone including EVE players play in some big turd dropping GOON/CSM/CPP infested alliance.

Hah this is a joke right?

HS PI is NOT worth fighting over !
The taxes are way too high and the yields of key ingredients are way too low.
The pathetic low yields of HS PI will NOT cover the expenses of fighting over POCO's, certainly for the small corps.
Just save us the trouble and transfer all assets to Goonswarm and delete my account.

Alternatively, leave HS PI alone and fix something meaningful like;
1.stop me from falling asleep while mining (add an asteroids client - ie shoot asteroids while you mine asteroids, the better you shoot the faster you mine ;) (or give mining bots to everybody)
2..make low sec relevant. I dont exactly know how, I just know its broken (I haven't been there but would like to without the need to share my profits with the support fleet who are trying not to fall asleep while waiting for the swarm of goons to jump in and blow up everything)

You're delusional if giving a big alliance a monopoly over a custom's office is "WORKING WITH OTHER PEOPLE"

And PS: by the way, believe it or not, many computer players are SOLO or a small group of friends at best. Not everyone including EVE players play in some big turd dropping GOON/CSM/CPP infested alliance.

As the person that developed the highsec poco plans...Your fears of Goons taking over all the highsec pocos are completely unfounded. It isn't required or desired.

What you should really be worried about hasn't even been brought up yet.

I fail to see why this surprises anyone.

POCOs in hi sec will give the owner the exact same controls as POCOs in low sec GÇô the owner can set the tax rate as he wants and can have different tax rates based on standings. This includes denying access.

there is one thing that bothers me:

if the poco can't be transfered during war, that kinda means i can't have
a war-loser transfer his poco (or all his pocos) to me as a reparation payment.
(otherwise i have to drop war first which kinda would allow him to sell 'em to someone else take 'em down or whatever)

so if you really implement this limitation it would be nice if there was at least a "transfer to war oponnent" button or something like that.

Any changes to the deployment of POCOs in regards to anchoring time/upgrade time?

I could see a fairly interesting development of people warping in logi + hauler or even using a blockade runner to "ninja drop" a POCO in place where another fleet had done the work of removing the Interbus. It certainly makes for contemplating some interesting tactics on how this would work but the very short timer for anchoring and upgrading a POCO makes it possible and once it is in place, the wardec mechanic makes it all but impossible to remove as you need to wait out the wardec timer.

I don't think allowing the starvation of highsec PI (unless we all kneel before Zod, Arryth, the Mittani, Mangala or whomever wins the Poco grab) is a good idea.

You're delusional if giving a big alliance a monopoly over a custom's office is "WORKING WITH OTHER PEOPLE"

And PS: by the way, believe it or not, many computer players are SOLO or a small group of friends at best. Not everyone including EVE players play in some big turd dropping GOON/CSM/CPP infested alliance.

Aaand later you guys say:



Nice job keeping up the pretense. Didn't last long.

Parsing this out, I presume that the grab will probably be selective. Certain areas may be untouched. But you'll be taking key regions worth of POCOs.

I am not sure I care who does this. CFC has the largest resources to do this, but they are not the only people to be concerned about.

I foresee a huge brawl in The Forge the likes of the Fountain War. RvB vs Goonswarm with other powers dropping in on various engagements. And that's probably the best case scenario. Worst would be a major power rolling through unopposed.

From the dev blog:



I think the deny access in highsec is going to be a real problem. It makes sense in low and null, but a real problem in high.

NPC taxes are still there, so it's obviously regulated. You may need to special case for high sec and remove the deny by standings and keep a lid on max tax rates. Or else things are likely to get really ugly in the production chain. While having null sec alliances play a part in this charge is interesting, I don't think allowing the starvation of highsec PI (unless we all kneel before Zod, Arryth, the Mittani, Mangala or whomever wins the Poco grab) is a good idea.

Ahem. *cough cough*



Seriously, the CSM is also looking forward to hearing player feedback on this one, particularly on the "null-sec take-over of high-sec POCOs" question that's already come up on page one. Can high-sec entities make it more trouble than it's worth to GSF or other null-sec entities to defend against reinforced POCOs over and over again? Or will the cost of the war-dec itself be the primary shield?

Nullsec gets handed siphons to steal moongoo and nullsec says nothing as that is funny what will promote some fun at the expense of our income.


Highsec gets handed POCOS and flips out because they want to play farmville in peace without those nasty big alliances clubbing them over the head.

The rabbit hole is much deeper than people seem to realize in this thread. We have three plans. Only one of which anyone is focusing on at this point. You should be worried far more about your fellow highsecer than us. While we are interested, this is fairly small income to us outside certain select cases. Worry more about your neighbors.

As the person that developed the highsec poco plans...Your fears of Goons taking over all the highsec pocos are completely unfounded. It isn't required or desired.

What you should really be worried about hasn't even been brought up yet.

Might I suggest that you not play an MMO then? Here, let me suggest some other games.

Customs Offices will now have a value on Kill Reports, meaning for instance that if the owning corporation has a bounty, then destroying their Customs Office will pay out bounty.

coupled with the fact that is doesn't cost a great deal to set up on a planet

The NPC tax will continue for hi sec POCOs (as we want low sec POCOs to still be competitive). The tax rate stays the same, at 10% for export and 5% for import. This is then in addition to whatever tax the player owner sets.

NEW SKILL

Worry more about your neighbors.

No, no restrictions like that.

heaven forbid in this massively multiplayer game one might get advantages from being able to work with other people

Yeah - except there is no competition here. The Big Alliances win. Game over. Anything else and you're just deluding yourself.

Now if there were SEVERAL custom offices at each planet, there might be actual competition ...

Now see ---THAT IS A GOOD IDEA.

WHY THE HECK DOESN'T A CORP NEED STANDING TO ANCHOR A POCO LIKE A POS??!

That would fit with all the past lore in game and only make sense and REWARD players for grinding standing. REWARD industrialists for their hard work. Small indy corps would have purpose.

But we can't have that can we (null alliances)....err CCP.

maybe you can compete with the big alliances by starting a big alliance of your own

Now see ---THAT IS A GOOD IDEA.

WHY THE HECK DOESN'T A CORP NEED STANDING TO ANCHOR A POCO LIKE A POS??!

That would fit with all the past lore in game and only make sense and REWARD players for grinding standing. REWARD industrialists for their hard work. Small indy corps would have purpose.

But we can't have that can we (null alliances)....err CCP.

Maybe I want to play in a sand box that I can do my own thing without goons dictating what I can and can't do and monopolizing key game play elements.

Oh god, CCP rooting out the massively online singleplayers is chubtastic.

Like vermin shrieking in uncomprehending fear as you shine a light on their putrid hovels made of excrement and waste.

Too bad this happens so infrequently.

Hi - please don't make the wardec restriction apply to low and nullsec - we frequently buy pocos and not being able to because the corp is at war is just a needless nerf for us - there is no reason for this restriction to exist in low/null and just screws over Pocos in this area

As a potentially more important issue- in the current situation - what is to stop me a neutral, flying up to a poco being bashed in highsec in a hauler/orca whatever with his own poco in the hold - locking it up, waiting for it to die and then deploying his own? - basically means its fastest finger first which is a bit unfair on the guys who have paid to do the wardeccing.
This is of course also the case in low/null with the difference that you can just blow up said hauler meaning the mechanic was never too much of an issue.

The doom-and-gloom posts in this thread miss two broader points:

1. CCP has stated repeatedly in dev blogs and fanfest talks that they want to increase "player interactions". Removing a NPC-seeded part of the game and replacing it with a player construction is one step along that path. This is a MMO and it benefits from social interactions. Why do you think that stargate picture is being shown again and again?

2. PI will continue to thrive, but in a different manner. If the easy, convenient COs people had been using come under new ownership or are destroyed, what happens? The player can (a) continue attempting to use that planet, (b) move to a less fought over area, or (c) exit the market. If (a) then no big deal, maybe a price increase passed to consumer. If (b) then GOOD, we have lots of systems in Eve which need more traffic. If (c) then no big deal, some other player will see the decrease in supply lead to a price increase, and enter the market himself.

Nullsec gets handed siphons to steal moongoo and nullsec says nothing as that is funny what will promote some fun at the expense of our income.


Highsec gets handed POCOS and flips out because they want to play farmville in peace without those nasty big alliances clubbing them over the head.

The rabbit hole is much deeper than people seem to realize in this thread. We have three plans. Only one of which anyone is focusing on at this point. You should be worried far more about your fellow highsecer than us. While we are interested, this is fairly small income to us outside certain select cases. Worry more about your neighbors.

oh you must be confused, a sandbox means that powerful groups can have influence because it's exactly that: a sandbox, and not an instanced game

perhaps there are instanced games more suited to your needs

I noticed an inconsistency with POCOs. In nullsec, you must have sov to anchor a POCO. In lowsec, nobody cares. In highsec, you don't need standing with the faction to anchor.

Lowsec doesn't matter either way since no mechanic exists there, but anchor rights should be consistent in highsec and nullsec. Either require sov/faction in both or in neither. If I need faction to anchor a POS, why don't I need it to anchor a POCO?

Influence - monopolize no.

Superb changes, you little anti-social guys need to pick a side and then buy a microphone. Remember that CCP makes the sandbox and the dimensions and rules of the sandbox are down to their designs. There has been YEARS of notice that high sec changes were coming and that the sandbox would be adjusted to make co-operative play work better than lone wolfing. Eve played as a socially co-operative experience was always the stated aim of the developers, the game is much better played that way in any case. This is the future and there's no going back now, more to follow I'm sure, explosions incoming.

The problem is (as always and in US history) is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and we all suffer from the short-sighted greed that is your master plan or that plan of anyone being so space-rich they run out of ideas except to terrorize other people.

The answer lies in economics and math just as it always has.

Anarchy isn't the way and Socialism (space carebears isn't either). Go ask Dr. E what he thinks of Nash and game theory.

Einstein said it as well. Paraphrasing, "You do what is best for yourself AND the group and you get the optimal outcome. If we really are playing internet spaceships second life here, then that is THE DEFINITIVE ANSWER HERE. Any new CCP "feature" to come out should meet both these criterium.

Superb changes, you little anti-social guys need to pick a side and then buy a microphone. Remember that CCP makes the sandbox and the dimensions and rules of the sandbox are down to their designs. There has been YEARS of notice that high sec changes were coming and that the sandbox would be adjusted to make co-operative play work better than lone wolfing. Eve played as a socially co-operative experience was always the stated aim of the developers, the game is much better played that way in any case. This is the future and there's no going back now, more to follow I'm sure, explosions incoming.

fyi

this will not save you

we have high standings alts just like you

anchor with alt -> transfer to goonwaffe

Superb changes, you little anti-social guys need to pick a side and then buy a microphone. Remember that CCP makes the sandbox and the dimensions and rules of the sandbox are down to their designs. There has been YEARS of notice that high sec changes were coming and that the sandbox would be adjusted to make co-operative play work better than lone wolfing. Eve played as a socially co-operative experience was always the stated aim of the developers, the game is much better played that way in any case. This is the future and there's no going back now, more to follow I'm sure, explosions incoming.

The problem is (as always and in US history) is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and we all suffer from the short-sighted greed that is your master plan or that plan of anyone being so space-rich they run out of ideas except to terrorize other people.

The answer lies in economics and math just as it always has.

Anarchy isn't the way and Socialism (space carebears isn't either). Go ask Dr. E what he thinks of Nash and game theory.

Einstein said it as well. Paraphrasing, "You do what is best for yourself AND the group and you get the optimal outcome. If we really are playing internet spaceships second life here, then that is THE DEFINITIVE ANSWER HERE. Any new CCP "feature" to come out should meet both these criterium.

Quoting for the ages. I have never seen so much ill-conceived pseudo-intellectual prattle mish-mashed into one post before.

This **** needs to be on t-shirts.

Also, this poco change completely makes up for the tos and blink stuff. Thoroughly enjoying Eve Online: Forums today.

This is actually a valid question, one would imagine that if just setting up a POS in empire space needs them to like you enough to lt you set one up to begin with.

The problem is (as always and in US history) is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and we all suffer from the short-sighted greed that is your master plan or that plan of anyone being so space-rich they run out of ideas except to terrorize other people.

I don't disagree with most of what you said really. I spend a great deal of my "EVE" time inventing ways to make our collective richer, more secure, more powerful, or have more fun. So we do indeed pursue the optimal outcome for our group. Yes, if you are outside the group you will not benefit from those actions but all richness and content must come at the expense of something or someone. That is the nature of sandboxes and to some extent all MMO's.

The major thing to remember is none of our plans are short sighted in the least. We just don't do that because it isn't efficient when trying to coordinate even our own alliance, much less CFC.

Our plans are generally multi-year plans. Or research for plans. People need to take the time to really think about these changes with a long view. The kneejerk reactions happening in this thread are what is short sighted.

i didn't start out able to buy and sell you hundreds of times i worked my way to the top

i didn't start out able to buy and sell you hundreds of times i worked my way to the top

Superb changes, you little anti-social guys need to pick a side and then buy a microphone. Remember that CCP makes the sandbox and the dimensions and rules of the sandbox are down to their designs. There has been YEARS of notice that high sec changes were coming and that the sandbox would be adjusted to make co-operative play work better than lone wolfing. Eve played as a socially co-operative experience was always the stated aim of the developers, the game is much better played that way in any case. This is the future and there's no going back now, more to follow I'm sure, explosions incoming.

And for others worried about GSF: Generally speaking, entire coallitions will not be able to partake in a "Highsec Poco" operations, since all member alliances won't declare war. This could create interesting "suspect timer" situations.

Also, competing for highsec resources is an Excellent addition to the game!!!

who says we're aiming to monopolize anything

somebody gets why we literally have no ability to monopolize hisec pocos

Quickly scanned through thread and didn't see this being asked:

Has any provision been made for new player PI access as part of the NPE?

if you don't like the guys running the poco on a planet, you can kill the poco or set up on another planet

Except there is no competition - there is only ONE customs office at each planet. THAT IS A MONOPOLY on resource access (an absolute monopoly on imports.)

If there were several custom offices at each planet - or one structure with several offices that players could select from, there then might be some healthy economic competition.

BS Not so easy.

[quote=Elana Maggal][quote=Andski][quote=Gizznitt Malikite]
there are other planets out there and in eve destroying the POCO and setting up your own is the economic competition. Your problem is not a problem and your solution is not a solution cause when a corp would set up both POCO's on a planet you'd ask for a third and then a fourth etc all in the name of competition while it's just laziness.

Except there is no competition - there is only ONE customs office at each planet. THAT IS A MONOPOLY on resource access (an absolute monopoly on imports.)

If there were several custom offices at each planet - or one structure with several offices that players could select from, there then might be some healthy economic competition. ... Might be.

Economic competition. Not military competition.

There is no competition militarily between hi-sec players and a big alliance. If you think there is you're deluding yourself.

Healthy economic competition means resources that can't be monopolized. Here clearly you have resources that will be monopolized by those who have more military power aka the Big Alliance players.

If will really **** up the PI economy good.

It's hard to believe CCP supports this crap. And wants to call it a sand box for everyone. Sand box my ass CCP.

I don't think denying acces in HI Sec should be an option.

Hi sec should be a place where new players can try out stuff like PI, having acces denied isn't realy good PR.

I'm not sure about the other changes:

one part says yeah go for it an other part is abit weary about the big alliances taking over and destroying part of the gameplay.

I'm not sure which of these to sides have won in my head.

No standing/security or suspect flag hit will happen.

No standing/security or suspect flag hit will happen.

I suppose you could say there is no competition for moongoo either, since you can only put one POS at a moon? On a very, very local scale you are correct, but not in the larger scheme of things.

There are 1090 High sec systems and 817 Low sec represented in the "Empire Regions" chart on dotlan:
Regional Planet Distribution Charts

If we assume 50% of the empire planets are in highsec, then in any empire region you will have 100's of planets you can use in any region.
FYI, from the chart, there are 16285 planets in empire space, and we can safely estimate 8000 of those are in highsec. At 100m per poco, it would take 800 billion isk to claim them all, and it would be a logistical nightmare protect them.

The main question is, who will pay 500 million ISK to attack the GSF POCOs? Truth be told, many groups will gladly pay that for the large number of targets they get presented with. Add to that the desire to get in "fleet fights" with GSF in a "you can't hotdrop here" situation, and it is quite possible GSF will simply make themselves big targets by zealously claiming highsec POCOs.

>> You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land.
>> The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons.

Yeah - common clay morons. That's the way we are viewed by the goon turds. Who seem to think a free market is getting CPP to creating sandbox rules that benefit them and **** everyone else over.

How like the RL economy in the US.

So whats stopping goonswarm or any other large null sec alliance taking over EVERY poco in high sec in no time? Because you know damn well that this is going to happen. Yet again another implementation for the nullsec alliances to make massive passive income! Arrgghhh

Not only does it cost billions to even war dec them, they can bring 100s of subcaps to defend them. Well done CCP well done.




Who thought of this absolute stupid idea?

So whats stopping goonswarm or any other large null sec alliance taking over EVERY poco in high sec in no time?

So whats stopping goonswarm or any other large null sec alliance taking over EVERY poco in high sec in no time? Because you know damn well that this is going to happen. Yet again another implementation for the nullsec alliances to make massive passive income! Arrgghhh

Not only does it cost billions to even war dec them, they can bring 100s of subcaps to defend them. Well done CCP well done.




Who thought of this absolute stupid idea?

>> You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land.
>> The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons.

Yeah - common clay morons. That's the way we are viewed by the goon turds. Who seem to think a free market is getting CPP to creating sandbox rules that benefit them and **** everyone else over.

How like the RL economy in the US.

You pretend there is like a Plasma planet in every sector, or that a hi-sec corp will simply get-up and go somewhere else just to find non monopolied Big Alliance custom office in some other system.

That's crazy talk. Let me tell you something: PI is barely worth the gameplay effort as it is. This just pretty much hands over the big profits from PI to the big alliances - as if these guys don't get enough profit from their moon goo from nul-sec.

It closes down options for hi-sec players, it makes the sand box SMALLER. It monopolizes resources and acts as if it's some kind of free market ****. It ain't. It's a MONOPOLY.

First off, POCO's in nullsec won't have the 10% NPC tax rate (5% with skills). This is a HUGE deal, as Big Alliances have logistics chains setup to really minimize the efforts required to move PI goods back and forth.

Highsec POCO's will also see a general reduction in cost of usage. Sure, some entities may block Plasma planets to "block usage", but even if goons setup every POCO at 5% tax rates, and your an unskilled new player, 15% (5 to goons, 10 to NPC) is still cheaper than 17%.

This change makes highsec PI more viable.
This change adds highsec targets to spark wars over.
This adds a new income stream for entrepreneurial groups.
This adds a new method to conduct economic manipulation of markets (instead of Ice interdiction, we get Enriched Uranium Interdictions).

How can you possibly think this is bad for the game?

Guess I might as well delete my PI now...

the fact that we'd have to grind thousands of interbus COs or POCOs belonging to players who beat us to them, the fact that we'd have to drop close to a trillion ISK in POCOs, and place pocos on every planet

this is a ridiculous idea that we haven't even entertained because it's a waste of time

[quote=Elana Maggal
First off, POCO's in nullsec won't have the 10% NPC tax rate (5% with skills). This is a HUGE deal, as Big Alliances have logistics chains setup to really minimize the efforts required to move PI goods back and forth.

Highsec POCO's will also see a general reduction in cost of usage. Sure, some entities may block Plasma planets to "block usage", but even if goons setup every POCO at 5% tax rates, and your an unskilled new player, 15% (5 to goons, 10 to NPC) is still cheaper than 17%.

This change makes highsec PI more viable.
This change adds highsec targets to spark wars over.
This adds a new income stream for entrepreneurial groups.
This adds a new method to conduct economic manipulation of markets (instead of Ice interdiction, we get Enriched Uranium Interdictions).

How can you possibly think this is bad for the game?

First off, POCO's in nullsec won't have the 10% NPC tax rate (5% with skills). This is a HUGE deal, as Big Alliances have logistics chains setup to really minimize the efforts required to move PI goods back and forth.

Highsec POCO's will also see a general reduction in cost of usage. Sure, some entities may block Plasma planets to "block usage", but even if goons setup every POCO at 5% tax rates, and your an unskilled new player, 15% (5 to goons, 10 to NPC) is still cheaper than 17%.

This change makes highsec PI more viable.
This change adds highsec targets to spark wars over.
This adds a new income stream for entrepreneurial groups.
This adds a new method to conduct economic manipulation of markets (instead of Ice interdiction, we get Enriched Uranium Interdictions).

How can you possibly think this is bad for the game?

moving more towards sociopaths online

A corporation that owns a Customs Office cannot transfer ownership if they are at war or have a war pending. This does not apply to transferring ownership to another corporation in the same Alliance as the owner (as the war will still cover those).

Fixed that for you

wow you actually believe that?

Do you know how much its costs to wardec goons or any other large alliance? And even if you did do think most enterprenuers can cope with a 500+ blob protecting the poco?
The pocos will be taken over by big entities simple fact

so no its very bad for the game
so yet again CCP makes eve about large nullsec alliances, giving them massive passive income. moving more towards goons online.. seriously its tie to unsub i think

New Acronymn: NSASO

NSA Sociopaths online - secretly spying on your game play - to protect your freedom!

It costs 500m to wardec a large alliance. Big isk to a new player, not unmanageable to most player groups, and chump change to EvE's industrious base.

Do they outnumber you? Probably, but so what. Agony is a small group compared to 90% of Nullsec Alliances, and we've taken POCO's and moon-goo POSes from entities many times our size. You have to remember that a bigger group of people has many potential targets, and they can't maintain focus on every one of them. You may not succeed the first attack, but be determined and vigilant and you can reclaim a tower as you like. Furthermore, since they can't use cyno-travel to bridge directly to the system, nullsec allliances will provide amazing opportunities for guerrilla warfare as they move to/and from a POCO defense.

Finally, the Goons may have some big bad wolf label, but their playerbase dies just as readily and easily as that miner in an ice belt. As a small guy taking on a goliath, aim for small victories (kill scouts and stragglers, make their life hell, undermine or profit from their actions).

this implies that we think you deserve freedom which as a guy who does eve stuff all the time is fucking surreal and makes me laugh on my ass

Ahem. *cough cough*



Seriously, the CSM is also looking forward to hearing player feedback on this one, particularly on the "null-sec take-over of high-sec POCOs" question that's already come up on page one. Can high-sec entities make it more trouble than it's worth to GSF or other null-sec entities to defend against reinforced POCOs over and over again? Or will the cost of the war-dec itself be the primary shield?

Ahem. *cough cough*



Seriously, the CSM is also looking forward to hearing player feedback on this one, particularly on the "null-sec take-over of high-sec POCOs" question that's already come up on page one. Can high-sec entities make it more trouble than it's worth to GSF or other null-sec entities to defend against reinforced POCOs over and over again? Or will the cost of the war-dec itself be the primary shield?

CCP and goons can do whatever the **** the want in nul-sec. That's what it's there for - free-for-all, high risk and high reward. I have no problem with removing NPC tax rates from nul-sec.

However, you need to read the proposed changes more carefully.

1) the owner of the CUSTOM office can black list anyone they choose for IMPORTS.
2) they can charge whatever they want in addition to the NPC tax. Essentially having complete control over a single planetary PI production - since no one is going to use a custom's office with a ridiculous tariff on it.
3) Many people play or have alts in hi-sec to AVOID WARS. If you want WARS there is plenty of it in low-sec and nul-sec. Turning hi-sec in yet another war area is lazy CPP developers wanting to not produce quality in the game elsewhere. If you want to do that - why even have hi-sec? Why not just turn all of eve into nul-sec and be done with it? Then have any new players in EVE first kiss the ass of any of the what? 5 or 6 big sociopathic alliance leaders if they want to pay a monthly subscription.
4) This adds a new method of economic manipulation for only the power brokers in the game. It gives them dominance in hi-sec PI and they get this dominance by unfair monopolization of hi-sec planets Customs office. The hi-sec players - some who do not play in nul-sec cannot compete with nul-sec ALLIANCES. There is NO COMPETITION. Instead of multiple custom offices at a planet there is just ONE. And mark my words: the valuable ones such as the PLASMA planets will be monopolized by the Big Alliances - just as the valuable Moons are.

This does not make PI more viable. It makes it more expensive and it create more control for the Big Alliances. And you're deluding yourself if you think that every PLASMA planet close to JITA won't be controlled by a big Alliance. And there really isn't a lot of them around - besides the bogus argument that there are plenty of planets available so we need not worry about access. BULL SHEET.

Interesting, so how much does a war against Goonswarm cost now again?

1. Turning hi-sec into another warzone is just stupid. You have low-sec, faction warfare, and nul-sec for that. A safe industrial base is what many players DEPEND on in order not have to be beholden to a few Alliances. Or players who don't want to deal with being raped by some gank squad or goon BLOB everytime they log online and want to simply sell something.

2. Many hi-sec players will not be able to compete or fight militarily a large alliance. This is just delusional. And if you think spending 500 mil for PI access is worth it - that's just off the charts crazy thinking.

1.) I own many POCO's myself, both with Agony and in industrial alt corps. I'm very aware of what I can and cannot do with them.

2.) If you don't trust the goons (which we all understand), then find a non-goon POCO. Find an entity you do trust. And if you only trust NPCs, then you'll never get very far in this game.

3.) The activities of players in highsec effect those in lowsec and nullsec, and vice versa. These aren't independent zones with independent economies. The EvE Verse is all tied together, and while your activities in highsec are generally "safer", it is not intended to be a zone free from the influence of other players, including aggressive combat. Furthermore, the rules of engagement in highsec greatly change the dynamics of how battles are fought there. This means tactics change, playstyles change, and creates unique areas of game play.

4.) Highsec has been under extreme economic manipulation for a very, very long time (look at moongoo, ice interdictions, and many, many more). From wealthy highsec industrialists to major nullsec alliances to that new player experimenting with module prices in your local trade hub, it has been going on since the game started. This provides a new method of resource manipulation, but that isn't some bad thing, nor is it a simple thing to implement either. You live with it right now, and it hasn't destroyed the economy or gimped your playstyle. This may make the PI market a bit more volatile, but volatile markets leave lots of room for players to make lots of isk. And if you are simply a resource harvester that wants to accrue some extra isk by PI'ing, you don't lose anything as you still gain PI resources.

Why do you care if every plasma planet in highsec is controlled by a major alliance. Unless those major alliances produce more enriched uranium or whatever else your producing on that plasma planet than all of EvE consumes, the market will balance out reflect the increased costs of acquiring such products. Furthermore, if costs rise enough, you can harvest the resources from two non-plasma planets and combine them to produce anything you could on a plasma planet.

The sky isn't falling, the market generally passes taxes on to the consumer, and while the goons can manipulate markets, the average player simply pays $4 / gallon of gas this month instead of $3.50.

1. News flash.... Highsec is already a warzone. This doesn't change the core game play of highsec, as it is still a "safe industrial base" that players can depend on. Did the increase yield of nullsec ores stopped highsec mining? Did goon's ice interdiction really make it so you can't operate a research POS? Did the increased MFG slots in nullsec make it so you can't manufacture items? Frankly, there are enough profit-minded risk-accepting players in EvE that PI products will continue to be produced even if goons owned every Highsec Planet. Your disillusion if you believe otherwise!

2. The average-joe alliance doesn't need to compete with large alliances. Most people won't be majorly affected by this, and those few that are will either find new avenues in eve to play, or if they are smart, adapt to the new situation and pass the "taxes" on to the consumers.