The best part of this game is starting a corporation, getting going with making a name for it, and as soon as you do anything that even remotely bothers anyone, you're wardec'd and going to lose everything.

If they leave because of a basic game mechanic, then it's no loss.

Edit: War is declared rarely in real life? Ever heard of the USA?

Edit2: Have you considered the incoming wardecs because of this thread?

If the ISK is increased for wardecs then its been a worthwhile effort IMO.

I don't think CCP would like to see a mechanic that drives people to play another game, at least they won't want that to be an easy option in their game.

But like I said, war IS a necessary part of Eve and those who play accept that. Just it must be made harder to dec so many at any given time.

Wars are fine. The problem is the people who believe (wrongly) that they should be allowed to mine (or whatever) in complete peace and without any outside interaction (ganking, wars, whatever).

Blaming customers for their expectations, and losing them as a result, is bad for business.

If I was CCP, I would attempt to protect those players a bit more effectively than they currently are.

Blaming customers for their expectations, and losing them as a result, is bad for business.

If I was CCP, I would attempt to protect those players a bit more effectively than they currently are.

But now I see some corps wardec 8 or 10 others at a time - they can afford to pay this as they will catch miners in T2 ore ships and the loot will pay for a prolonged campaign.

I am concerned that the wardeccers will drive away the others who wish to enjoy the rest of the elements Eve has to offer. While they serve a purpose they may harm the enjoyment of the majority of capsuleers.

Blaming customers for their expectations, and losing them as a result, is bad for business.

If I was CCP, I would attempt to protect those players a bit more effectively than they currently are.

It's the same bogus argument that the *IAA uses -- "anyone who downloads [movie|song] represents a lost sale of that [movie|song]".

This is actually a patently true statement. Such a process involves absolutely no sale or further monetary compensation towards the artist, and, sorry, that point cannot even be argued.

Great de-railer though, and most indeed.

I mainly trade in EVE and have been known as the Merchant of Death.

War is a necessary part of Eve - without wars and general pvp the market will become saturated and would threaten the financial infrastructure that is finely balanced.

But now I see some corps wardec 8 or 10 others at a time - they can afford to pay this as they will catch miners in T2 ore ships and the loot will pay for a prolonged campaign. However many of the wardecced corps will merely suffer the inconvenience of war, having to switch to alts, or temporarily leave their corp to continue playing their game normally.

That is when they are out-matched and unlikely to combat this wardec from a hostile corp.

I have heard of many people leaving Eve, rather than do any of the alternatives mentioned. After several wardecs they have grown tired of the losses, inconvenience, and the ease at which a hostile corp can wardec so many others with a relatively minimal initial outlay.

In truth, wardeccing should be expensive. It should be a final resort, not a casual affair done by pvp-corps to pass the time. There should be a limit to the number of corps they can 'dec at any time. I would put that at 3.

The price should escalate over weeks, doubling every week.

As we see in real life, war is not declared cheaply and is done rarely.

I am concerned that the wardeccers will drive away the others who wish to enjoy the rest of the elements Eve has to offer. While they serve a purpose they may harm the enjoyment of the majority of capsuleers.

If they leave because of a basic game mechanic, then it's no loss.

Edit: War is declared rarely in real life? Ever heard of the USA?

Edit2: Have you considered the incoming wardecs because of this thread?

Random idea: would it be a good idea to change the war mechanics, so that PVP corps/alliances can only war dec each other?
When you create a corp you choose to register your corp either as a combat corp ( actively looking for PVP ) or industrial corp.

I don't think industrialists should be immune to being attacked ( at least they can still be ganked etc ).
It is unfair for genuine industrial corps who choose not to PVP and are not interested in the PVP side if eve to be subject to prolonged grief, by PVP'ers who are searching for that easy kill.

Every player should have the option to choose how they want to play the game. Some players log in and want to PVP/PVE; some choose to mine ( each to their own is a good philosophy ).


A more direct answer to your question "does war make players leave eve?" In the case of high sec industrial corps being subject to prolonged grief by PVP'ers, then yes.



What is your opinion?

I've seen some bad posts in my time here (duh, it's GD) but this one takes the cake.

rabblerabblerabblehorribadgarbage

Random idea: would it be a good idea to change the war mechanics, so that PVP corps/alliances can only war dec each other?
When you create a corp you choose to register your corp either as a combat corp ( actively looking for PVP ) or industrial corp.

USA? Actually, our last declared war was Korea.

Came to say this.


Also, I think wardecs DO drive some new players away, which is a pity.
But it's not a problem of wardecs in general, the problem is that many new players are not prepared for something like this through the tutorials and quickly give up when they are confronted with a far superior enemy.
It's been quite a while since I last played the tutorials, so maybe this problem has been addressed already when CCP revised them last year....

Wars are fine. The problem is the people who believe (wrongly) that they should be allowed to mine (or whatever) in complete peace and without any outside interaction (ganking, wars, whatever).

Ok so how many left because of WAR has brought new players in because of it.

Does WAR make players leave Eve?.

No matter how hard I try, apparently I am too dumb to make any sense out of those words.

Now I have a headache.

My bad, I was distracted, office girl was doing her filing, and did not proof what I wrote.

How many left due to the War dec Mechanic.

How many Joined due to the War dec mechanic.

Ah..thank you very much....for a moment you really had me doubting my own literacy, thanks for clearing this up.

So, yeah, very valid question and I don't know the answer, I am not sure if even CCP has the answer.
Let's just hope that more people join than leave....

All I am going to do is this....

I used to play a pretty hardcore war game where you could get ganked and lose everything you built up over and over. You only had a few days after starting before you were a fair target for everyone (no NPC corp protection there). When you left the computer to get some sleep you could still be attacked. Months of work could be lost in one night while you were sleeping! And it would take months to get it all back.

USA? Actually, our last declared war was Korea. Granted, the ONLY reason we haven't declared war since then is because there was never an armistice signed. We are actually STILL officially at war with North Korea, and NATO won't let us officially declare any other wars until we officially end that one..... which will likely never happen.

(so, yes.... that DOES mean North Korea is the victim of the worst perma-dec, in history... and we are the highsec griefers)

Random idea: would it be a good idea to change the war mechanics, so that PVP corps/alliances can only war dec each other?
When you create a corp you choose to register your corp either as a combat corp ( actively looking for PVP ) or industrial corp.

I don't think industrialists should be immune to being attacked ( at least they can still be ganked etc ).
It is unfair for genuine industrial corps who choose not to PVP and are not interested in the PVP side if eve to be subject to prolonged grief, by PVP'ers who are searching for that easy kill.

Every player should have the option to choose how they want to play the game. Some players log in and want to PVP/PVE; some choose to mine ( each to their own is a good philosophy ).


A more direct answer to your question "does war make players leave eve?" In the case of high sec industrial corps being subject to prolonged grief by PVP'ers, then yes.


What is your opinion?

War is a necessary part of Eve - without wars and general pvp the market will become saturated and would threaten the financial infrastructure that is finely balanced.

But now I see some corps wardec 8 or 10 others at a time - they can afford to pay this as they will catch miners in T2 ore ships and the loot will pay for a prolonged campaign. However many of the wardecced corps will merely suffer the inconvenience of war, having to switch to alts, or temporarily leave their corp to continue playing their game normally.

That is when they are out-matched and unlikely to combat this wardec from a hostile corp.

I have heard of many people leaving Eve, rather than do any of the alternatives mentioned. After several wardecs they have grown tired of the losses, inconvenience, and the ease at which a hostile corp can wardec so many others with a relatively minimal initial outlay.

In truth, wardeccing should be expensive. It should be a final resort, not a casual affair done by pvp-corps to pass the time. There should be a limit to the number of corps they can 'dec at any time. I would put that at 3.

The price should escalate over weeks, doubling every week.

As we see in real life, war is not declared cheaply and is done rarely.

I am concerned that the wardeccers will drive away the others who wish to enjoy the rest of the elements Eve has to offer. While they serve a purpose they may harm the enjoyment of the majority of capsuleers.

I think the problem is its too profitable to war dec noob corps and such, so perhaps what we need is an affordable way to hire people to defend war decced corporations, I would love to have kill rights on some pirates in high sec.

USA? Actually, our last declared war was Korea. Granted, the ONLY reason we haven't declared war since then is because there was never an armistice signed. We are actually STILL officially at war with North Korea, and NATO won't let us officially declare any other wars until we officially end that one..... which will likely never happen.

(so, yes.... that DOES mean North Korea is the victim of the worst perma-dec, in history... and we are the highsec griefers)

There is no guarantee that a person downloading a song would have ever bought it in the first place, thus they cannot (by definition) be considered a "lost sale" (unless you're counting every single time someone walks past your item on the shelf as a "lost sale" ... in which case, everyone is guilty of causing serious economic harm to the *IAA and the artists they represent).

If you're in a newbie corp and get wardecced, you just have to be patient. The wardec will go away someday. Sure, being almost powerless against more experienced, shinier-shipped wardeccers is kind of frustrating and humiliating. But on the other hand, the challenge is really interesting. I can remember some excellent war room strategy discussions among my newb corp members. Much more interesting than discussing ship fits, L4 missions tactics, etc. In the end dealing with the wardec made the corp leadership smarter and made us tighter overall as a team. And the guys who were just in it for themselves left the corp. That was an added bonus.

This is the misconception, you aren't powerless at all and a few simple tactics will make them go away. Train electronic warfare and get into griffins then back those up with some cheap destroyers. Its enough damage to kill them and support to make it really hard for them to do much to your destroyers. Neither is high skill either, it just takes a little bit of thinking and the motivation to do something about your situation. The miners could never figure out how to tank their ship to the point CCP buffed them all so those two might be in short supply for your average highsec person.

Attacking WT's should give you a suspect flag and sec status hit without Concord intervention in high sec. Right now, war decs are the only mechanic where you can kill soft targets without aggression penalties and without exposing yourself to external threats (bubbles, hot drops, fleets from other corps, etc).

Blaming customers for their expectations, and losing them as a result, is bad for business.

If I was CCP, I would attempt to protect those players a bit more effectively than they currently are.

Edit: War is declared rarely in real life? Ever heard of the USA?

If you're in a newbie corp and get wardecced, you just have to be patient. The wardec will go away someday. Sure, being almost powerless against more experienced, shinier-shipped wardeccers is kind of frustrating and humiliating. But on the other hand, the challenge is really interesting. I can remember some excellent war room strategy discussions among my newb corp members. Much more interesting than discussing ship fits, L4 missions tactics, etc. In the end dealing with the wardec made the corp leadership smarter and made us tighter overall as a team. And the guys who were just in it for themselves left the corp. That was an added bonus.

You want to use the biggest warmongers on the planet as 'typical'?

You want to use the biggest warmongers on the planet as 'typical'?

If the ISK is increased for wardecs then its been a worthwhile effort IMO.

I don't think CCP would like to see a mechanic that drives people to play another game, at least they won't want that to be an easy option in their game.

But like I said, war IS a necessary part of Eve and those who play accept that. Just it must be made harder to dec so many at any given time.

USA? Actually, our last declared war was Korea. Granted, the ONLY reason we haven't declared war since then is because there was never an armistice signed. We are actually STILL officially at war with North Korea, and NATO won't let us officially declare any other wars until we officially end that one..... which will likely never happen.

(so, yes.... that DOES mean North Korea is the victim of the worst perma-dec, in history... and we are the highsec griefers)

We have all sorts of Freedom here in the US... Thermobaric Freedom, 5.56mm Freedom, Wire-guided Freedom, Laser-guided Freedom, Unmanned Aerial Freedom, and of course Nuclear Freedom.... so much it's just hard not to share it. Honestly I'm somewhat surprised the rest of the world hasn't collectively turned on us in self-defense yet...
In EVE, however, I'm still on the fence about wardecs. I sorta see the point of those who are intimidated by them, yet I'm also not terribly comfortable with npc corps serving as refuges for players who can't manage to act in an adult manner and face the consequences of their own actions. I know not everyone who stays in these corps does so for these reasons, but there are those who do.

I'm in an NPC corp for that very reason. I get numerous offers to join player-run Corps but I decline as I know the hassle. If I wanted to fight wars then I'd join a player-run Corp. The reason I'm not fighting wars is to get ISK to be able to afford losing ships fighting them later.

So player-run Corps suffer from membership which is not what CCP intended.

A great idea IMO and a far more worthwhile post than some of the replies I've read on here.

OK, so the "hard-core" want Eve to stay the way it is, REGARDLESS of whether it drives people away. Meanwhile CCP make a pittance for such a high quality MMO as say World Of Warcraft makers Blizzard, who DO pander to all their customers.

In a few years to come, will this marketing strategy leave Eve with a handful of dedicated followers, wardeccing as many corps as they please, or will a "re-balancing" occur which will greatly allow EVERYONE to enjoy this sci-fi simulator?

I think saying, "If you wanna leave then you aren't cut out for Eve" is a narrow perspective - there IS room for improvement which will not affect the many who enjoy the risks and danger of Eve, while allowing more players to avoid that part within reason, and within the general concept of privateers always being at large.

Is every dowinload a lost sale? No but some pecentage. And item on the shelf is a false analogy because the person walking by the item doesnt take it home and keep it. A closer analogy along those lines is shop lifting, the difference being in shop lifting there is tangible loss to the marketer other than the loss of sale. Because there is no direct analogy in conventional direct sales is where the grey area term comes into play.

All true advice here. The real problem is not that fighting back is too hard/impossible but that a **** ton of people don't know WTF they are doing. Without someone telling you the right stuff, it's easy to get lost in the vastness of possibility the game has to offer.

Knowledge of the game will let you do lots of neat things even with the low SP level of a newbie.
High SP with poor knowledge of the game will make you a big fat target.

CCP has always touted EVE as a dystopian universe ... nowhere in any of the ads or trailers (or news articles about "bad things" happening to people) have they even hinted at the possibility of being safe anywhere. *snip*

In this game, if things do not get blown-up, that breaks the circle of "life". You need to be able to build and you need to be able to destroy, the two are tied together.

Fixed that for ya. The principle is viable in the real world, not just in EvE. Wars have been used to prop up real economics since the beginning of time and are still used for that today.

(stuff)

EvE is a GAME about a dystopian universe. CCP is a business. Part of being in business is attempting to attract, and retain, paying customers. Ads are about painting a picture for a potential customer to draw them in. It is not a contract, nor an all-inclusive description.

Money belonging to dumb people spends just as well as money belonging to smart people. Again, meeting customer expectations is part of being in business. Some of their customers want it one way, some want it another. Making both groups happy is the goal.

...Large Hardon Collider.

What... what game is this? Details, please, you got my hopes up and everything.

Essentially if you organise your corp to fight in a high sec war all you are doing is asking them to log into Eve and do nothing.

Which, would you say, is more important? Getting in new players or retaining the player base that has continued to grow year on year since release? Given how fickle most gamers are, I know where I would put my money if I were CEO of CCP.

Because the risk here is that if they try to make "EvE for the dumb" then the not-pants-on-head-******** existing player base will just leave. The player base that CCP has grown here is very niche and play this game simply because there is nothing out that comes close to the visceral, cold and harsh world that is EvE.

I, for one, do not want another WoW in space clone thank you so very much indeedy.

~words~

I would say that both kinds of customers are important, as they both represent income. You seem to be under the impression that this is a black or white choice. That is a False Dilemma.

I believe it is possible to retain the "visceral, cold and harsh world that is EvE" while providing some protection to "the other" customers who have reasonable expectations about the game they pay for.

Hold on, if you read the warning label on the box, and decide that it does not apply because you are special, and have this idea that your money means more than the others that have read, understood and accepted the conditions of the warning...how the hell does give you or any one else the right to tell everyone they are wrong.

It is like walking up to a group of people who are playing a game by the established rules and then stomping your feet wailing about screaming it is not fair and demand to change the rules in the middle of the game.

It is very simple, if you do not like the way it is played, find another game. Simple. You will be replaced by others that enjoy that type of game play and rules.

Wars are great for business... and as everyone knows, the best way to line your pockets before retirement as an elected official is to start a war somewhere and own most of the contractors involved with any of the "support" and/or "security" issues.

EVE is no different.

It got you hot, admit it

You make some good points here, but you're going about it wrong. You don't pull out all 100 of your dudes to fight 20 (well, you can, but they'll hide).

Here's what you (should) be doing when a war crops up:

1. no flying solo anywhere, excepting obvious things (scouts jump first). but otherwise look disorganized.
2. make your losses inexpensive (but still fit effectively) -- e.g. if a lot of your guys are goon in frigs/dessies, fly those (pilots "good" in cruisers/bc can act as heavy muscle). You can lose a lot more well-fit frigates for the same price as a poorly fit battleship
3. taking notes on who the "good" pilots are -- see if they wanna start being FCs.

Now, "being prepared for war" isn't something that should be done in the 24 hours leading up to a war, but it should be done all the time. Buying or building 30 frigates is a lot easier on resources over the course of 3 months than in 24 hours ... knowing some "generic" fits that will go onto a ship, so you can counter it (e.g. a rifter will have autocannons and an AB ... so use artillery, a long point, and kite him)...

2 man corps? I had one of those until I caught my alt trying to AWOX me... I booted him and he ragequit. Now I have no alt.
Now at least I don't have to listen to weak excuses about not being able to help with corp activities, nor do I need to worry about whether or not I'll have backup if it hits the fan.
Even so, in all seriousness, I maintain a personal corp for the purposes of helping to keep me accountable for my own actions and words, in game, and on the forums. I'm an adult, or so they tell me, and I'll face the consequences of what I bring upon myself. Personally, I'm of the opinion that NPC corps should be able to be wardecced, either that or individuals should be able to be decced. EVE isn't a game for the kiddies, there are plenty of those out there. As matters stand the NPC corps serve as havens for too many screaming monkeys who don't want to face the consequences of flinging poo. This is the thing that is broken. Rampant asshattery without consequences is simply cultural decay in action.

I think you are failing to recognise that there needs to be something for all the participants to be doing. At best you are suggesting there is some fun in only a third of the participants having something to do, by my math that leaves two thirds of the people with nothing to do - irrelevant of ships and skills. 'You can't fight, we're at war' is far too close to being a Dr Strangelove quote.

We do about go war correctly, that is the problem, we try to fight in an armed conflict but there is nothing to shoot at. Being able to declare war and then vanish completely from the Universe when it suites you doesn't make any sense. The war system is wrong, not the people wanting to wage war.

War is a necessary part of Eve - without wars and general pvp the market will become saturated and would threaten the financial infrastructure that is finely balanced.

But now I see some corps wardec 8 or 10 others at a time - they can afford to pay this as they will catch miners in T2 ore ships and the loot will pay for a prolonged campaign. However many of the wardecced corps will merely suffer the inconvenience of war, having to switch to alts, or temporarily leave their corp to continue playing their game normally.

That is when they are out-matched and unlikely to combat this wardec from a hostile corp.

I have heard of many people leaving Eve, rather than do any of the alternatives mentioned. After several wardecs they have grown tired of the losses, inconvenience, and the ease at which a hostile corp can wardec so many others with a relatively minimal initial outlay.

In truth, wardeccing should be expensive. It should be a final resort, not a casual affair done by pvp-corps to pass the time. There should be a limit to the number of corps they can 'dec at any time. I would put that at 3.

The price should escalate over weeks, doubling every week.

As we see in real life, war is not declared cheaply and is done rarely.

I am concerned that the wardeccers will drive away the others who wish to enjoy the rest of the elements Eve has to offer. While they serve a purpose they may harm the enjoyment of the majority of capsuleers.

You seem to be under the impression that this game can be the PvP sandbox its advertised as and Hello Kitty Island Adventure at the same time. ThatGÇÖs simply not possible, there is no false dilemma here.

I honestly donGÇÖt see how it is possible to introduce yet more protection (high sec safety has been buffed so many times already) without essentially breaking the cold harsh world that is EvE.

Hold on, if you read the warning label on the box, and decide that it does not apply because you are special, and have this idea that your money means more than the others that have read, understood and accepted the conditions of the warning...how the hell does give you or any one else the right to tell everyone they are wrong.

It is like walking up to a group of people who are playing a game by the established rules and then stomping your feet wailing about screaming it is not fair and demand to change the rules in the middle of the game.

It is very simple, if you do not like the way it is played, find another game. Simple. You will be replaced by others that enjoy that type of game play and rules.

PvP Sandbox or Hello Kitty Island IS the false dilemma. You can't just reword a false dilemma, proclaim it to not be what it obviously is, and win.



Just because you lack vision doesn't mean there's nothing there to see. High sec safety has, as you've pointed out, already been buffed many times without breaking the game. That's a fact. The theory that one more move in that direction would be the straw that breaks the camel's back is nothing but amateur-hour conjecture and alarmist bullshit.

The quote is "You can't fight in here! This is the war room!" (hilarious movie)

Why is what I said limiting the "fun things" to only 1/3 of the people in a corp? I merely posted "some" things that you could do, not all the things... care to clarify?

There's nothing stopping your corp of 100 from having a mining op during a war (just bring defense and properly tanked skiffs).
There's nothing stopping your corp of 100 from continuing to mission (just fly in pairs/quads).
There's nothing stopping your manufacturers and traders from doing their thing (use escorts/scouts).
There's nothing stopping you from looking weak/disorganized (mining 2 jumps away from home with a "small" gang ... backup on standby).

It got you hot, admit it

You're either deliberately leaving out an important part,
or are too ignorant to see it.

It's one little step, right next to all the other small steps,
right next to all the future small steps.

It's not going to end. People will complain, no matter what.

You either know that and are full of ****,
or you don't and simply lack mental capacity to see the obvious.

Personally, i think you simply say this crap because you only care about yourself
and not about the game as a whole.

There is no guarantee that a person downloading a song would have ever bought it in the first place, thus they cannot (by definition) be considered a "lost sale" (unless you're counting every single time someone walks past your item on the shelf as a "lost sale" ... in which case, everyone is guilty of causing serious economic harm to the *IAA and the artists they represent).

PvP Sandbox or Hello Kitty Island IS the false dilemma. You can't just reword a false dilemma, proclaim it to not be what it obviously is, and win.



Just because you lack vision doesn't mean there's nothing there to see. High sec safety has, as you've pointed out, already been buffed many times without breaking the game. That's a fact. The theory that one more move in that direction would be the straw that breaks the camel's back is nothing but amateur-hour conjecture and alarmist bullshit.

I honestly donGÇÖt see how it is possible...

Just because you lack vision doesn't mean there's nothing there to see. ...

Well instead of throwing ad hominem attacks at me, tell me what this great "vision" of yours is. So far you are being very vague.

The rules have been changed in the middle of the game of Eve Online, many many times. And yet, it's still here, and still growing. By your logic, anyone who has ever seen an ad for Eve has no right to even QUESTION current mechanics, or suggest changes, once they start playing because they have somehow locked themselves into a contract by trying the game even though someone said it was "hard".



Another false dilemma. "EVE: Love it or leave it." Classic fallacy, straight out of the examples listed in the link I already posted.

It is not as simple as you would suggest. Valid concerns should be, and often are, addressed as the game evolves. The only ones around here wailing, stomping, and screaming are those that panic every time someone suggests that a change may be needed in an area they are content with. This happens all the time. Despite the predictions of the Chicken Littles, the sky still manages to hang solidly above the ground.

Are you guys really trying to say that ANY change to wardec mechanics that might help new players would result in a broken, unplayable, and unpopular game abandoned by anyone who signed up before 2013?

Wassup with that formatting bro? 80 column monitor?

What you've posted above is called the slippery slope fallacy. You are implying that unless we stop making changes with the goal of retaining new players the game will be ruined. As you presented no evidence to back up your assertion, it's a logical fallacy.

Then you launch into an ad hominem accusation that I am selfish, which makes no sense at all. Quite the opposite is true. I care about the game. I want to see it thrive, and I want to see new players stay after they try it out. New blood is good for the game. If I was selfish, I wouldn't care. Maybe you're the one who is selfish. You and those like you seem to care more about ganking noobs before they have a chance to learn a thing than you do about the future health of the game. The health of any MMO requires new players to try it and STAY instead of leaving after a week.

That is a quote, I don't get why it would be relevant to what I said unless you were to include all his lines and then have a Peter Griffin like epiphany.

I think you are struggling with the logic involved.
If you bring sufficient defence then there is nothing for that defence force to do. That is not fun for the defence force, no matter what they watch other people do (within the current limitations of character interaction).
There is no case for bringing insufficient defence when you vastly out number the enemy.

Mining etc., pretty pointless if you have to give a sufficiently sized defence force a cut.
Missions you can get away with but it is a bit of contradiction to fill your time with PvE when you are at war which should really be keeping you occupied with PvP.
Trading and manufacturing isn't relevant, war can make it more irritating but doesn't stop anything as those activities largely take place in stations, wars are only a week long and it's hardly a challenge to ship something through a third party if it needs moving that badly.

So I can just walk into K-Mart and walk out with some window blinds and not pay, since I didn't need them and probably would not have purchased them anyway ?

I agree with you. CCP must be aware that new players may be deterred from being ganked or getting wardecced in their fledgling corps. CCP would be very foolish to ignore the potential threat to expanding the game to as many players as possible , without compromising the harshness of the Eve universe.

Eve has changed many times and it will continue to evolve hopefully in the right direction.

CCP has made a lot of changes, some good and some bad. Stating CCP has made some changes does not support or give validity to the idea of changing a fundamental part of the game.

Not only that, no one has shown proof that you have large numbers of player leaving the game.

All that has been brought forward is a bunch of "I knew this one guy who had a friend that watched his cousin rage quit because someone ganked his buddies ship...and it was just not fair."

This entire thread has been is a big social agenda sandy va jay jay rant.

I was merely referencing your self-declared lack of vision, not promising to be your messiah. I have been very clear.

Except that i don't gank noobs.

And i don't make up bullshit claims about caring about the game,
while at the same time wanting to nerf it even more.

It's fine. Of course, more new players are always welcome and people who
target specifically those aren't my type either, but if you believe that making
the game more safe for them is what they actually want,
then you just assume stuff and ignore reality.

Reality is, that the game is advertised as what it is.
Reality also is that protecting people only weakens them. There are studies about this regarding children
and "protective" playgrounds, which led to children only get hurt even more in the long run,
because they didn't learn how to watch out for themselves, as somebody else did it.

If you really cared about the game, you would go seek out all those new players and
help them learning to protect themselves. Help them to fight. Help them to defend themselves.

Instead, you want to game to be changed for people who might or might not have stayed,
ignoring the long time consequences completely.

You have no actual ground for anything, tbh. EvE always had lots of new players leave early
and it still works. People still join and stay.

Keep dreaming you're the good guy.

You're just the selfish ******* only believing what he wants to believe,
ignoring actual reality.


If you *really* want to make more players stay, then you should go and check
out what's actually wrong ... like i did. And it's not them getting killed.

New players mostly KNOW what the game is about,
because it is advertised as that !

Dismissed.

The best part of this game is starting a corporation, getting going with making a name for it, and as soon as you do anything that even remotely bothers anyone, you're wardec'd and going to lose everything.

No, you have merely spouted strawman arguments back up by nothing more than your opinion, hyperbole and ad hominem attacks.

But carry with your smug self importance. I find it rather amusing given your posts utter lack of content. :)

I think that corporations should revolve around war more. Now, I don't mean that I think there should be more wars, I mean that anything done in the corp UI (joining a corp, creating a corp, managing the bulletins or MoTD, etc, etc) should be a constant reminder that war is looming. That way no one is going to freak out when it happens.

The whole war issue is an issue of educating the playerbase. If you can't defending your corporation you shouldn't have made it and recruited members in the first place. If people understood this then war would be more interesting for all involved. There would be less small corps, and more corps would have measures in place for during war time, and the defenders would enjoy it more because they are prepared, and the aggressors might get the occasional fight as it should be.

You mentioned Dr. Strangelove ... I just gave you the right quote from the movie... relax dude.

No, there's not ... but if you know that bringing all 100 dudes in your corp will get them do dock up, don't bring all 100.

Set up smaller gangs (say 10)

- roam looking for WTs who think they're "safe" because you're a mining corp -> have killed several people this way (probed them in their mission).
- if you can't probe their mission, just watch the gate(s) that they have to go through to get "home"

Mining -> you don't need a huge fleet to "defend". Yeah, you might need a big fleet to actually curb-stomp them, but a handful of hero tackle and griffins/falcons will let the guys mining GTFO (some miners may die to alpha, but that's what skiffs are for).

Missions -> better than ship spinning (debatable -- I'd rather ship spin).

Trade/Mfg -> happens in station yes, but can still get messed up.

I mean it seems you've got this hard limit of "no war = do whatever the hell you want" and "war = all PVP all the time". It's not like that -- wars just allow CONCORD-free combat between two parties.

Wouldn't you agree that it is more damaging to their morale (and boosting to yours) to see your corporation flipping them the bird and continuing to do whatever while still under the "duress" of a war?

If they leave because of a basic game mechanic, then it's no loss.

Not empty quoting.

I guess what would really help the game is kicking all the wannabe white-knights out of it.
Right next to all the morons who specifically target noobs and, to make sure it's done properly,
all the vets in starter corps giving new players bad advises.

This

If anything another player can do (within the EULA of course) can get a person to quit, then the quitter wasn't EVE stock to begin with.

+1 spacelike for you, good sir.

I still remember my first forays into lowsec (and dying horribly) ... and then getting convo'd by (or maybe convo'ing) the person who saved my terribly fit frigate from itself. Alas, killmail changes and new computers have destroyed the convo and record...

it boiled down to the simple things :

1. Dual tanking is bad
2. Shields on a tristan is bad
3. Try this fit, and when you get into a cruiser ... this is a nice 'rax fit.

That's a wonderful perspective. Now look at the situation from the perspective of a gaming company which would, you know, kinda like to be a successful business and could use the sub money... to do stuff...and things... like pay their employees.

That's a wonderful perspective. Now look at the situation from the perspective of a gaming company which would, you know, kinda like to be a successful business and could use the sub money... to do stuff...and things... like pay their employees.

If you know the maximum size that the enemy force can be and can easily match it then it seems a little more than daft to bring a smaller force GÇô the aggressor chose a war against a ridiculous number of players, it isnGÇÖt the defenders duty to roll over and die in some bizarre gesture of sympathy.

I canGÇÖt say that I have read GÇÿThe art of WarGÇÖ but IGÇÖm assuming that GÇÿhave less guns than the enemyGÇÖ isnGÇÖt a quote.

ItGÇÖs generally accepted that no one that declares war in high sec leaves high sec, obviously there are places to go to do other things, but that isnGÇÖt fighting a war. We have guns, ships, ammunition and people but an aggressor that refuses to be in any way aggressive.
A war system where both parties in the war go to great lengths to avoid each other for the duration is not edge of your seat game play, its boring.

I think you are basically confirming boredom.

I think you mean wouldnGÇÖt it be nice if we just undocked in defenceless ships so the GÇÿl33tGÇÖ pvpGÇÖers can get their risk free kills and frankly no, we would like to shoot the enemy a lot during a war. We all have to suffer the inconvenience, so it doesnGÇÖt seem unreasonable that we should all get to shoot at them. The aggressor opted for the odds to be against them and if they are punching above their weight then they should have to suffer the consequences, there should be an element of risk for them.

War should be damaging to the corps involved.

To add to this:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8419886


Did I leave....nope.

I was mad when it happened. Now a days I just look at it as a very very expensive lesson learned when I was a noob. The people who leave cause of the wars, they just dont have the correct mindset for EVE in the first place.

And now look at the progress of subs for EVE over the last decade, they only went up each and every year with the only significant drop around Monocle-gate.

PLEX

got a good haul that time ... hope someone was able to scoop the loot (or at least the PLEX) and get them back to station...

ISD might not like the KM linking ... even though it is yours.

Well if ISD doesnt like me posting a ridiculous loss...of myself, so be it.

Hmm. No, I have not.

Making baseless statements like the one you made above requires no effort, so my reply reflects that. If you can't be bothered to back up your accusations with citations and a sound argument, then why bother to post? Were your feelings hurt or something?

Eve has survived as long as it has and done as well as it has because it offers something that no other MMO since the days of Ultima does, actual risk to you in game assets. You want to take that away an thus remove from EvE the one thing that makes me and many other keep logging in.

That's a wonderful perspective. Now look at the situation from the perspective of a gaming company which would, you know, kinda like to be a successful business and could use the sub money... to do stuff...and things... like pay their employees.

Yes, yes you have.

Its not baseless at all. As I said in a previous post, I have seen what happens when a games company that produces a niche game tries to make the game mainstream. In fact, I've seen it happen twice to games I loved, Red Orchestra and SWG.

You simply chose to ignore this, as you have done with every other valid point raised.

You keep touting that CCP is a company that needs to make money, do you honestly think there is one person reading this thread who needs that pointed out to them?

Eve has survived as long as it has and done as well as it has because it offers something that no other MMO since the days of Ultima does, actual risk to you in game assets. You want to take that away an thus remove from EvE the one thing that makes me and many other keep logging in.

Random idea: would it be a good idea to change the war mechanics, so that PVP corps/alliances can only war dec each other?
When you create a corp you choose to register your corp either as a combat corp ( actively looking for PVP ) or industrial corp.

I don't think industrialists should be immune to being attacked ( at least they can still be ganked etc ).
It is unfair for genuine industrial corps who choose not to PVP and are not interested in the PVP side if eve to be subject to prolonged grief, by PVP'ers who are searching for that easy kill.

Every player should have the option to choose how they want to play the game. Some players log in and want to PVP/PVE; some choose to mine ( each to their own is a good philosophy ).

A more direct answer to your question "does war make players leave eve?" In the case of high sec industrial corps being subject to prolonged grief by PVP'ers, then yes.

What is your opinion?

If you're in a newbie corp and get wardecced, you just have to be patient. The wardec will go away someday. Sure, being almost powerless against more experienced, shinier-shipped wardeccers is kind of frustrating and humiliating. But on the other hand, the challenge is really interesting. I can remember some excellent war room strategy discussions among my newb corp members. Much more interesting than discussing ship fits, L4 missions tactics, etc. In the end dealing with the wardec made the corp leadership smarter and made us tighter overall as a team. And the guys who were just in it for themselves left the corp. That was an added bonus.

(stuff)

~words~

Appreciated.

I'm surprised people read walls of text, that was a whopper.

Let's see if you all think I am so bright when I run off and join Harry Forever.

But I won't do it on this character, would be bad for buisness. I would have to do it on another character. Which of course is not me, because I cannot claim to be myself on an alt. I think that is against the rules. So it will have to be another character who is not me, but knows me really well. Who is not me.

But I digress, carry on...

So, being in this position, I can answer...

I been around a couple months now. I resisted joining a corp in hi-sec as I knew it would make me a target. Eventually, I jumped in. I think I got wardec'd the following week. I had begun EvE doing all the paranoid things a pilot should do. Making bookmarks, aligning when I mine. Fitting tanks to my barges and haulers. Using alt haulers. Being in an NPC corp made most of this completely unecessary. So I sat there. Running missions, burning rocks, building stuff. Occasionally I got myself blown up. Point is, I had my little carebear themepark. It got boring real quick.

Then the war came. Everthing changed. This man said it best:



In the opening week a guy got podded in a rookie ship. A couple T2 barges got whacked. People griped, but they learned. An enemy diplomat offered us a payoff to end the war, we said no. War continues. Losses continue. We are figuring a way to hit back, learning our, and our enemy's cababilities.

It came down to one moment for me. I was on a belt, eyes glued to local, spaming D-Scan when a war target popped into system. My heart started pounding, being aligned, I hit warp and my little barge crawled up to speed. I can still see the blinky red ship warping in on my AO just as I entered warp. All my paranoia paid off, and what a rush!!! I even got away with it a second time the same day. Though I have to say, I shouldn't have gotten away the second time. I was too slow. I said to myself it is over but they dropped the ball. No scram, no web. They either got cocky or lazy. Shame on them.

War added a whole new dimension to my game play. It makes Eve what it is. If I want to burn rocks I should be at the same risk as everyone else. Bumping. Ganking. War. Creating an inherent "safe zone" would go against everything that makes Eve what it is. Being immune to a war dec would have made me quit the game. I got away that day because I was ready. I was rewarded for my game play. I continue to be rewarded for my evolving game play.

Yours is a terrible idea, sir.

SWEET!!!

Yes, yes you have.

Its not baseless at all. As I said in a previous post, I have seen what happens when a games company that produces a niche game tries to make the game mainstream. In fact, I've seen it happen twice to games I loved, Red Orchestra and SWG.

You simply chose to ignore this, as you have done with every other valid point raised.

You keep touting that CCP is a company that needs to make money, do you honestly think there is one person reading this thread who needs that pointed out to them?

Eve has survived as long as it has and done as well as it has because it offers something that no other MMO since the days of Ultima does, actual risk to you in game assets. You want to take that away an thus remove from EvE the one thing that makes me and many other keep logging in.

The pussies all around makes me quit. Not war.

You just won EVE.

Confirming this thread has popped up every few months or so for the last 7 years, if not more.

Non-consensual pvp is one of the core aspects of the game, asking to have it changed is like asking eve to be a fantasy game, or asking to be able to grind for levels.

Straw man argument. OP never asks this.

And besides, non-consensual pvp has been changed many times over those 7 years. But again, you're off topic.

Changed, yes. It's existence is never really in question. It's a fundamental part of the game after all, randomly having your day ruined by some guy.

I agree, 100%. OP also seems to agree with this.

I agree with the OP because THE GRIEFING IN THIS GAME HAS GONE ON LONG ENOUGH. It is ridiculous that players can't undock in high-sec (NOTICE THE WORD 'HIGH") without immediately getting blown to bits by basement-dwelling sociopath teenagers with no lives who have never even held hands with a girl before. EVE is DYING and if CCP doesn't do something about it soon then this game won't even last TWO YEARS. To be honest I don't get why they don't simply ban all the griefers from the game, because the game would obviously become a much better place without them. The high-sec pvp mechanics are remnants of an OLD ERA, created by CCP employees who obviously didn't have the vision and understanding of their customer base that allowed them to hold on to their jobs. GUESS WHAT, most people are well-adjusted individuals and want to create, not destroy. The few psychos out there who can't wrap their minds around that simple fact DO NOT BELONG in this game, and much less society as a whole. We should be able to play how we want, not how others want us to. Plenty of great ideas like pvp flags have been proposed, and it goes beyond my understanding why CCP won't implement something as rational as that. There's plenty of null-sec out there for players to duel other in, for those who want to. At the very least, they could make it so that wars would have to be mutually accepted, or maybe make the attackers pay the defenders for every ship they destroy. It's common sense, people. Save EVE and say NO to wars in high-sec.

Straw man argument. OP never asks this.

And besides, non-consensual pvp has been changed many times over those 7 years. But again, you're off topic.

I'm really not, because the op is suggesting that non-consensual pvp (or at least one of its facets) be changed from something that is done frequently and easily to something that is done as a "last resort". That's not a small change, it's a big one, and a big change to one of the things that makes eve the game that it is will be frowned upon by people who actually like the game for what it is, also known as the people currently paying CCP to keep playing their game.

What it boils down to is this:
Would eve be a better game if it were safer?
Eve is fairly well known for filling its server with people who would gladly say no.

It's kind of like suggesting that eve should have multiple servers. It's not that the idea itself is without merit, or that there aren't people who would like to see it happen, but were it actually implemented you'd be losing one of the core aspects of the game, and in the end it would suffer for it.

infinitesec

Where he and I diverge, however, is his assertion that wardeccing as a concept is responsible for lack of player retention.

Which is simply not true. The game has plenty of reasons for low player retention, the ludicrously complicated UI being among them, and the actions of other people can be easily discounted.

One does not enter into an MMO without being aware that people are involved, large numbers of them. And large numbers of people will mean negative interaction is basically a given.

I think you may be oversimplifying OP's assertion. My interpretation is that he feels that the low cost of wardecs may contribute to the lack of player retention. To me, that's worth discussing. While I agree that it may not be the only factor, I don't think it's ridiculous to consider if it's one of the factors. OP never suggests removing wardecs "as a concept" or otherwise, and reiterates the importance of wardecs to the game several times.

I also agree that negative interaction "happens" and I am not advocating the removal of all negative interactions nor of wardecs.

I would ask you then, if you feel that wardecs do not cost enough, and they should be more expensive, whether you would be in favor of removing (or de-incetivizing) dec dodging.

Because the cost of deccing someone is commensurate to how incredibly easy they are to just brush off with no consequences.

I am not 100% sure that they should be more expensive, but I think it's a worthwhile topic of discussion. As for how incredibly easy they are to just brush off with no consequences....I'm not sure I would characterize the situation that dramatically either. The current system is better than the Decshield days. Yes, people can drop out of their corps if decced, but that can have consequences if it's a "real" corp and not just a tax shelter. If it was as easy, painless, and simple to avoid decs as you describe, then why do they cause enough grief to start threads like this one?

Whether or not Eve is full of people who would gladly support your position is irrelevant because that is argumentum ad populum. What it actually boils down to is this: Would Eve be better or worse off if the cost of wardecs went up substantially again? Would that change help new player retention without causing the loss of too many butthurt bittervets? Although the OP does use words like "last resort", he does (multiple times) reaffirm the need for wardecs and suggests upping the price as a solution (multiple times) so that's really what we're talking about here.

And sorry but no, increasing the cost of wardecs is not a core aspect of the game comparable to changing to multiple servers. That's just plain ol' exaggeration.

If the cost of wars goes up, then players who declare wars will band together into bigger groups to more easily afford the fees by virtue of distribution. All this will do is push the little groups of sociopath butt-buddies out of the picture. It will do NOTHING to address the actual problem of pvp happening where it SHOULDN'T. The only way to do that is to REMOVE WARS FROM HIGH-SEC ENTIRELY, like it should have been in the first place. HIGH-sec means HIGH safety, not NO safety, like the way it is now.

And yet you haven't rebutted my argument.

Actually, the OP seems focused two themes: 1) He asks if wardecs cause new players to leave. 2) He suggests substantially raising the cost of wardecs. The first is a valid question. The second would indeed be a big change if implemented. However, it's also been done before, and guess what, it didn't break Eve. So I think the question of whether to raise the cost again is also a valid one.

Whether or not Eve is full of people who would gladly support your position is irrelevant because that is argumentum ad populum.

What it actually boils down to is this: Would Eve be better or worse off if the cost of wardecs went up substantially again? Would that change help new player retention without causing the loss of too many butthurt bittervets? Although the OP does use words like "last resort", he does (multiple times) reaffirm the need for wardecs and suggests upping the price as a solution (multiple times) so that's really what we're talking about here.

And sorry but no, increasing the cost of wardecs is not a core aspect of the game comparable to changing to multiple servers. That's just plain ol' exaggeration.

I agree with the OP because THE GRIEFING IN THIS GAME HAS GONE ON LONG ENOUGH. It is ridiculous that players can't undock in high-sec (NOTICE THE WORD 'HIGH") without immediately getting blown to bits by basement-dwelling sociopath teenagers with no lives who have never even held hands with a girl before. EVE is DYING and if CCP doesn't do something about it soon then this game won't even last TWO YEARS. To be honest I don't get why they don't simply ban all the griefers from the game, because the game would obviously become a much better place without them. The high-sec pvp mechanics are remnants of an OLD ERA, created by CCP employees who obviously didn't have the vision and understanding of their customer base that allowed them to hold on to their jobs. GUESS WHAT, most people are well-adjusted individuals and want to create, not destroy. The few psychos out there who can't wrap their minds around that simple fact DO NOT BELONG in this game, and much less society as a whole. We should be able to play how we want, not how others want us to. Plenty of great ideas like pvp flags have been proposed, and it goes beyond my understanding why CCP won't implement something as rational as that. There's plenty of null-sec out there for players to duel other in, for those who want to. At the very least, they could make it so that wars would have to be mutually accepted, or maybe make the attackers pay the defenders for every ship they destroy. It's common sense, people. Save EVE and say NO to wars in high-sec.

I agree with the OP because THE GRIEFING IN THIS GAME HAS GONE ON LONG ENOUGH. It is ridiculous that players can't undock in high-sec (NOTICE THE WORD 'HIGH") without immediately getting blown to bits by basement-dwelling sociopath teenagers with no lives who have never even held hands with a girl before. EVE is DYING and if CCP doesn't do something about it soon then this game won't even last TWO YEARS. To be honest I don't get why they don't simply ban all the griefers from the game, because the game would obviously become a much better place without them. The high-sec pvp mechanics are remnants of an OLD ERA, created by CCP employees who obviously didn't have the vision and understanding of their customer base that allowed them to hold on to their jobs. GUESS WHAT, most people are well-adjusted individuals and want to create, not destroy. The few psychos out there who can't wrap their minds around that simple fact DO NOT BELONG in this game, and much less society as a whole. We should be able to play how we want, not how others want us to. Plenty of great ideas like pvp flags have been proposed, and it goes beyond my understanding why CCP won't implement something as rational as that. There's plenty of null-sec out there for players to duel other in, for those who want to. At the very least, they could make it so that wars would have to be mutually accepted, or maybe make the attackers pay the defenders for every ship they destroy. It's common sense, people. Save EVE and say NO to wars in high-sec.

I agree with the OP because THE GRIEFING IN THIS GAME HAS GONE ON LONG ENOUGH. It is ridiculous that players can't undock in high-sec (NOTICE THE WORD 'HIGH") without immediately getting blown to bits by basement-dwelling sociopath teenagers with no lives who have never even held hands with a girl before. EVE is DYING and if CCP doesn't do something about it soon then this game won't even last TWO YEARS. To be honest I don't get why they don't simply ban all the griefers from the game, because the game would obviously become a much better place without them. The high-sec pvp mechanics are remnants of an OLD ERA, created by CCP employees who obviously didn't have the vision and understanding of their customer base that allowed them to hold on to their jobs. GUESS WHAT, most people are well-adjusted individuals and want to create, not destroy. The few psychos out there who can't wrap their minds around that simple fact DO NOT BELONG in this game, and much less society as a whole. We should be able to play how we want, not how others want us to. Plenty of great ideas like pvp flags have been proposed, and it goes beyond my understanding why CCP won't implement something as rational as that. There's plenty of null-sec out there for players to duel other in, for those who want to. At the very least, they could make it so that wars would have to be mutually accepted, or maybe make the attackers pay the defenders for every ship they destroy. It's common sense, people. Save EVE and say NO to wars in high-sec.

If the cost of wars goes up, then players who declare wars will band together into bigger groups to more easily afford the fees by virtue of distribution. All this will do is push the little groups of sociopath butt-buddies out of the picture. It will do NOTHING to address the actual problem of pvp happening where it SHOULDN'T. The only way to do that is to REMOVE WARS FROM HIGH-SEC ENTIRELY, like it should have been in the first place. HIGH-sec means HIGH safety, not NO safety, like the way it is now.

Are you guys really trying to say that ANY change to wardec mechanics that might help new players would result in a broken, unplayable, and unpopular game abandoned by anyone who signed up before 2013?

I agree with the OP because THE GRIEFING IN THIS GAME HAS GONE ON LONG ENOUGH. It is ridiculous that players can't undock in high-sec (NOTICE THE WORD 'HIGH") without immediately getting blown to bits by basement-dwelling sociopath teenagers with no lives who have never even held hands with a girl before. EVE is DYING and if CCP doesn't do something about it soon then this game won't even last TWO YEARS. To be honest I don't get why they don't simply ban all the griefers from the game, because the game would obviously become a much better place without them. The high-sec pvp mechanics are remnants of an OLD ERA, created by CCP employees who obviously didn't have the vision and understanding of their customer base that allowed them to hold on to their jobs. GUESS WHAT, most people are well-adjusted individuals and want to create, not destroy. The few psychos out there who can't wrap their minds around that simple fact DO NOT BELONG in this game, and much less society as a whole. We should be able to play how we want, not how others want us to. Plenty of great ideas like pvp flags have been proposed, and it goes beyond my understanding why CCP won't implement something as rational as that. There's plenty of null-sec out there for players to duel other in, for those who want to. At the very least, they could make it so that wars would have to be mutually accepted, or maybe make the attackers pay the defenders for every ship they destroy. It's common sense, people. Save EVE and say NO to wars in high-sec.

Reread the OP.

He never said "typical". Doesn't matter, though, because for the USA
it's pretty typical to invade a country and kill people.

Last i checked, when a country goes to war it usually invades the opposing side
and starts killing it's people. Or, nowadays, doesn't even need to invade it
and can just kill them remotely.

They just don't call it "war", they call it "bring freedom and democracy".


War is peace, obviously.

Oh my, someone is asking to be wardecced or ganked.
Enjoy your bounty by the way.

But we will open an exception for you... wil request for our directors to approve you for our list of "Wardec forever"

I agree with the OP because THE GRIEFING IN THIS GAME HAS GONE ON LONG ENOUGH. It is ridiculous that players can't undock in high-sec (NOTICE THE WORD 'HIGH") without immediately getting blown to bits by basement-dwelling sociopath teenagers with no lives who have never even held hands with a girl before. EVE is DYING and if CCP doesn't do something about it soon then this game won't even last TWO YEARS. To be honest I don't get why they don't simply ban all the griefers from the game, because the game would obviously become a much better place without them. The high-sec pvp mechanics are remnants of an OLD ERA, created by CCP employees who obviously didn't have the vision and understanding of their customer base that allowed them to hold on to their jobs. GUESS WHAT, most people are well-adjusted individuals and want to create, not destroy. The few psychos out there who can't wrap their minds around that simple fact DO NOT BELONG in this game, and much less society as a whole. We should be able to play how we want, not how others want us to. Plenty of great ideas like pvp flags have been proposed, and it goes beyond my understanding why CCP won't implement something as rational as that. There's plenty of null-sec out there for players to duel other in, for those who want to. At the very least, they could make it so that wars would have to be mutually accepted, or maybe make the attackers pay the defenders for every ship they destroy. It's common sense, people. Save EVE and say NO to wars in high-sec.