People farm relics and data sites regardless of the risk in nullsec because it is profitable to do so.

The farm you get from them can directly be used to manufacture goods in nullsec without bringing in any additional materials (well - besides blueprints, but that's a one time deal)

Just an example.

Even if those people come to me, the minerals still have to be shipped back to highsec to be refined, so I am making the same number of jump freighter trips than if I just bought it.

But I'm also saddled with a bunch of non combat characters who have to be protected, and saddled with vulnerable manufacturing infrastructure.

There are no positives. You don't bring anything to the table.



Why? You want to sell your stuff in the first place.

Guess who buys it?

Which is at risk from a simple bubble + Interceptor camp unless you are flying T3 in which case you have multiplied the cost to avoid the risk.

Unless you use an interceptor as a scanner, then you are losing cargo capacity

Plus you are inherently at risk while doing your site.


How does this not equate to more attrition?

Also., its a onetime deal if you are using BPOs.

2. I am sorry, but that has got to be the dumbest reply ever....

You're confusing me.

Do you think it's superior, from a risk/reward viewpoint, to run relic/datas in highsec?

I can tell you from extensive personal experience that it isn't.

Why is that?

It's not like you guys will stop selling things in Jita just because nullsec players *might* buy it.

Why no as they are 2 different things.

The easiest way to protect against ganking is to fit a decent tank, set standings to known gankers so they show red in local.

Chances are they will gank the poor unsuspecting sod next to you with zero tank.

If a gankers want to kill you they will, it is something that you have to accept.

I know as I have ganked and had ganks attempted on me.

Most ganks were successful and all attempts on me failed.

As for mining in null, it is different as with ganking its all about the Alpha, in null alpha does not matter.

A Defence Fleet is not going to stop you getting ganked.

Another issue is say you have a 15 man defence fleet to protect your mining fleet in null.

Say the Op is to last 2 hours. During those 2 hours those guys in the defence fleet could be out ratting / running anons earning isk, instead you are asking them to watch people mine for 2 hours.

Yay.. watching somebody mine for 2 hours, not boring or tedious at all.

Do they not deserve to earn isk or have fun during those 2 hours? Now if you are going to pay them its an additional cost, if you don't they simply will not log on for that Op and you can't blame them.

So mine without a defence fleet, possible, sure, just go don't afk to watch a film or a bio break, nip to the shops to get some beer / ciggies, grab a shower etc whilst your mining because if you miss that Intel report or a red logging on in your system your dead.

In null there is no concord to blap the guy shooting you.

No, I said that thanks to attrition, ALL tasks take longer and are often more expensive and riskier in null

You didnt want to talking about mining, and ratting didnt come up, so I let you choose Scanning, which is probably the single Null-Sec friendliest task you can have.

I was simply pointing out that even at that, the risks are even greater, its very easy to lost a 90m cargo of stuff to a single stealth bomber waiting at a site (thats how I make my money, so I knwo what Im talking about).

Once that Scannign ship is gone, you have to get another, and good luck finding it and the fits in Null

So even when you choose a task that is weighted in your argument's favour, it still stands that you will be operating much more slowly in Nullsec than in high or low. Im not about to argue the merits of the sites themselves as obviously null sitres are inherently better, but ny extention they take longer to do and are more heavily farmed.

admitting that acquiring or hiring protection for miners is more feasible in null as alpha is less important and PVPers have a better chance in getting into fights.

But this is what doesn't sit well with me; this hypocrisy (and I don't mean necessarily from you but instead) from null sec players.

I don't want to make this about hi sec suicide-ganking because this is not what this thread is about. However, I find it quite amusing that the advice that has been provided ad nauseum to hi sec miners doesn't apply to null, when in fact it is MORE relevant.

I agree with most of what you are saying.

But they are still profitable and they are still worth doing.

If you do intend to fit a new ship in null, you need rigs anyways:

So you can either:

1) Ship your data/relic loot to highsec, sell it there....and then buy rigs there, and ship them back

or

2) Take your data/relic loot and turn them directly into rigs right in nullsec.

It's not more relevant.

It's much, much less feasible.

A mining fleet with guards in nullsec space is nothing except more killmails than a mining fleet by itself.

But you have to go back to High to get your ship anyway, and the parts to fit it with

Even if they are available up there, the extra difficulty in obtaining the materials to build say for example a Buzzard and the few people doing it means that its a sellers market.

You may as well sell the loot and buy your ship and fit in high and bridge back up, though again, that quite expensive.

You see what Im saying though? The factors that multiply the difference are more than just lines available or anti-Buzzard camps.

Yes, Null sites are profitable, but without mlarge alliance support in one way or another, almost any other activity can be (note: CAN be, ie usually is) extremely expensive in terms of infrastructure, time and/or diplomacy

Why is it less feasible? Is the protection not adequate enough?

Shrug. You have limited cargo hold which you admitted yourself. (Edit: What? Whats this got to do with it? And I mentioned cargo in relation to an interceptor, so... what?)

What's preventing you from the selling finished rigs to a nearby alliance/corp at a discount vs jita prices to save you the time/hassle of traveling back and forth to offload your loot?

I can imagine they burn through things like T2 trimarks pretty damn quickly.

What I've noticed is, and this deserves emphasis, that these few vocal null sec players refuse to explore the root cause of the 'null sec industry problem'. On a few occasions it has been admitted by them on this very thread that low end miners are needed in null sec. But they refuse to accept that those they have spent years loathing and ridiculing are the solution to their problems.

Usually, the fact that as you are not part of them, they will kill you as soon as see you?

That in all likelyhood they are already importing trimarks from Highsec, if not they are already manufacturing themselves from ratting?

And why on earth would you want to sell in null FOR LESS than you can get in High?

Because no matter how many guys you put in the defense fleet short of TiDi levels of large, all it's going to do is make them batphone more black ops.

Their tears are delicious!!

Yeah, it's probably pretty painful for them to accept that the people they love to mock and ridicule are in fact needed in the game. They want what we bring, but they don't want us. Derp.

I can't even tell you how tempted I am to run ammo or frequently used T2 modules out to null in a BR and price it twice what it is in highsec. I bet it would sell. The premium attached to convenience! I'm about 23 days from a BR and I just might do that to see what happens. If I can afford the hull, heh.

There is so much sparring going on that is just muddying the water. It might be helpful if the nullsec community can come to some sort of plurality on the central question: Is there a problem with industry in nullsec, and do we want to do something about it?

Because no matter how many guys you put in the defense fleet short of TiDi levels of large, all it's going to do is make them batphone more black ops.

Two things. First: So? So you have to fight? What's the problem? Isn't the game all about shooting spaceships? Don't you want to be in on killmails yourself? Or are you suggesting the enemy is simply better than you or better able to field a larger fleet?

Second: So?! Bring in your own reinforcements. Set up a picket line to harass and distract. FIGHT!

How often is the enemy going to be able to field a fleet to go after you? And again, *so what*!? You guys like to fight, so fight! Hurt them bad enough that they can't field fleet against you any more.

Their tears are delicious!!

Yeah, it's probably pretty painful for them to accept that the people they love to mock and ridicule are in fact needed in the game. They want what we bring, but they don't want us. Derp.

Two things. First: So? So you have to fight? What's the problem? Isn't the game all about shooting spaceships? Don't you want to be in on killmails yourself? Or are you suggesting the enemy is simply better than you or better able to field a larger fleet?

Second: So?! Bring in your own reinforcements. Set up a picket line to harass and distract. FIGHT!

How often is the enemy going to be able to field a fleet to go after you? And again, *so what*!? You guys like to fight, so fight! Hurt them bad enough that they can't field fleet against you any more.

Hey Anslo!
I once lost 100m to an impersonator of yours (and by this I mean I'm a fan, cause I agreed to loan someone I thought was you ISK XD)

Of course after filing petition I got the ISK back ^^.

What are your thoughts on whether hisec should be nerfed?

OK, then it sounds to me, and you're not going to want to hear this, you're unable to defend your territory, operations, and your system of things. If you're being outnumbered/overpowered and you are unable/unwilling to defend your ops, then perhaps the problem is with the weaker alliance? Help me out, show me what I'm missing here.

Have you considered perhaps reducing your territory to a more manageable size? One that would allow you to concentrate your military muscle more effectively?

When you get hotdropped, you have no choice whether you fight or not. The problem is, that if I am trying to bait out and kill a black ops team, there is better bait out there than a carebear mining fleet.

But I wouldn't be trying to bait out a black ops team. I would be trying to let you guys do your thing and make me stuff. Which wouldn't happen.

"picket line"? Do you know what a cyno is?

"how often is the enemy going to be able to field a fleet to go after you?"

Most people keep black ops teams on standby, so... every time they find the miners. All day, every day. You can't exactly hide that many people.

"Hurt them bad enough that they can't field fleet against you any more"

What, you mean like killing their miners? Wait, they don't have that particular massive point of vulnerability.

I'm sorry, but this sounds like alliance incompetence! This shouldn't be something CCP should have to fix. AT ALL.

Your mining ops are failing due to your alliance's inability/unwillingness to protect its miners properly.

OK, then it sounds to me, and you're not going to want to hear this, you're unable to defend your territory, operations, and your system of things. If you're being outnumbered/overpowered and you are unable/unwilling to defend your ops, then perhaps the problem is with the weaker alliance? Help me out, show me what I'm missing here.

Have you considered perhaps reducing your territory to a more manageable size? One that would allow you to concentrate your military muscle more effectively?

Do you not know how black ops works?

You're digging your own grave here. I'd stop if I were you.

The issue from an industry point of view is that it doesn't matter if no mining ships pops and all live, its that is you will not be able to mine.

So you can launch mining op after mining op but if they are only going to last say 30mins or an hour before they have to dock because of a red fleet how long do you think those miners are going to last in null?

What they can earn from mining in null is not going to make up that short fall.

If you were to improve player built stations then industry in null would receive a boost and everybody wins.

But the problem hasn't been effectively fixed because if interruption is the problem before, interruption is still the problem after.