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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 20 post(s) |

Ruafo
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
2
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Posted - 2014.02.06 20:28:00 -
[511] - Quote
Good idea. Finally i can play the game again. Our Drone Bunnies were **** anyways :D
But I hate static figures.
In my opinion it should be more dynamic depending on:
- the size/class of the ship
- Every assisted drone should negative affect the scan resolution/targeting speed.
- Maybe it shouldbe in generell onlly be possible to assist drones to your own squad commander.
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Dave Stark
4330
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Posted - 2014.02.06 20:29:00 -
[512] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:baltec1 wrote:Joan Greywind wrote:Well if the reason for this change is "domis having 5 times the damage of the next ship, making the meta stale", how much damage is proteuses and legions in wh compared to other ships? The meta there is deader (more dead?) than Ghenkis khan's body. T3 have yet to be teircided. dont use that term it ended last year with bs rebalance. as only tech I ships had tiers. so any pending changes cannot be construde as tiericide. the term to use now is just ship rebalance. thanks
t2 ships have tiers too. **** tier, and worth using tier. |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
10102
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:31:00 -
[513] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:
dont use that term it ended last year with bs rebalance. as only tech I ships had tiers. so any pending changes cannot be construde as tiericide.
the term to use now is just ship rebalance.
thanks
Teircide will not be finished until all ships have seen it. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |

Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6363
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:32:00 -
[514] - Quote
Toshiro Ozuwara wrote: Then fix tidi. The problem is tidi, not drone assist. People afk in 6 hour tidi fights. No one sits at their computer for 6 straight hours if they don't have drones deployed.
"just rewrite the entire codebase from scratch" Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
10102
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Posted - 2014.02.06 20:33:00 -
[515] - Quote
Tiberizzle wrote:If alpha is gamebreaking, why is it okay for artillery alpha or dread alpha to break the game (bypass remote assist mechanics) and not sentry alpha?
How is prefiring F1 and ctrl-clicking the top thing out of the broadcast window more engrossing than assisting drones?
Adjust sentry drone damage projection and in particular revisit the mindboggling double down overbuffs to the Gallente drone hulls.
10 year old game mechanics should not be considered a degree of freedom in realizing whatever autistic fever dream of game balance is inspiring some of the recent changes
Its because with sentries you could get perfect alpha, no other fleet type can do that. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |

Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1479
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Posted - 2014.02.06 20:34:00 -
[516] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:No matter which side you fall on this issue, the one positive is that CCP waited until the war ended (for all intents and purposes) before announcing the nerf.
Unless it's totally coincidental, I think the restraint in addressing the situation is commendable and both CCP and the CSM should adopt this approach! That if something needs to be addressed, but addressing it in the moment will prejudice an outcome ingame (as in sov warfare), then the better approach is to wait for the end of the situation - or at minimum a significant lull - before changing anything.
I agree. The flipside is they waited far too long to address this and it did impact the war already in HED. Everyone knew this was a problem before this war started and CCP and specifically Fozzie seemed to resist making any changes. Once it was splattered all over the server stats and we started abusing it, look a nerf. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |

Tiberizzle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
46
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Posted - 2014.02.06 20:37:00 -
[517] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tiberizzle wrote:If alpha is gamebreaking, why is it okay for artillery alpha or dread alpha to break the game (bypass remote assist mechanics) and not sentry alpha?
How is prefiring F1 and ctrl-clicking the top thing out of the broadcast window more engrossing than assisting drones?
Adjust sentry drone damage projection and in particular revisit the mindboggling double down overbuffs to the Gallente drone hulls.
10 year old game mechanics should not be considered a degree of freedom in realizing whatever autistic fever dream of game balance is inspiring some of the recent changes Its because with sentries you could get perfect alpha, no other fleet type can do that.
any fleet can prefire F1 and ctrl-click the first thing out of their overview
they will stack up, at the very least, on whole server ticks, and all the damage done until the first logistics is able lock from the friendly broadcast is just as "perfect" as sentry alpha, in so far as it's not possible for any remote assistance to cycle before the target is dead
the issue you are whining about is that volley bypasses remote assistance, and the koolaid you are drinking is that this is in someway unique to sentries |

Jedediah Arndtz
Half Jupiter Mining Company
18
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Posted - 2014.02.06 20:40:00 -
[518] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello, some news: Why a flat cap?
We believe a flat cap will:
Leave room for smaller scale assisting (there are several use-cases for assist that we wanted to preserve, such as incursion drone managers)
Apparently Incursion fleets all run with Gëñfifty drones, not, y'know, the 200 or so that 40 pilots will put out.
Other than that bit of misinformed logic, yay cap! |

Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
339
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:44:00 -
[519] - Quote
Ashrik Tyr wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Please clarify yourself here. What do you mean "if this doesn't work" ? I can't put a number on it, but currently Dominixes are responsible for somewhere in the ballpark of 5 times the PVP damage dealt of the next most popular fleet battleship, if that's still the case in a few months this will have 'not worked'. I don't get it. How can this be a move to appease goons while at the same time nerfing the main goon fleet doctrine? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
Because its not. Low skilled goon BS drones can still easily fit into another low-skilled doctrine, multiply by 2000 and you have a fleet.
We've seen lots of drone doctrines over the years; four years ago people were flying sentry-domi fleets and it wasn't a problem. Gila fleet, Ishtar fleet, all of them no problem to CCP. But as soon as the wrecking-ball appeared, and the whining reached fever pitch, goon dev's ride in to save the day.
This is only aimed at the only thing goons are scared of and crying about.
I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
10102
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:47:00 -
[520] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:Ashrik Tyr wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Please clarify yourself here. What do you mean "if this doesn't work" ? I can't put a number on it, but currently Dominixes are responsible for somewhere in the ballpark of 5 times the PVP damage dealt of the next most popular fleet battleship, if that's still the case in a few months this will have 'not worked'. I don't get it. How can this be a move to appease goons while at the same time nerfing the main goon fleet doctrine? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Because its not. Low skilled goon BS drones can still easily fit into another low-skilled doctrine, multiply by 2000 and you have a fleet. We've seen lots of drone doctrines over the years; four years ago people were flying sentry-domi fleets and it wasn't a problem. Gila fleet, Ishtar fleet, all of them no problem to CCP. But as soon as the wrecking-ball appeared, and the whining reached fever pitch, goon dev's ride in to save the day. This is only aimed at the only thing goons are scared of and crying about.
There has never been fleet fights involving as many drones as there is today. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
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Tsikuu
Inappropriate Contact
0
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Posted - 2014.02.06 20:54:00 -
[521] - Quote
:slowclap:
Nerf Omnis Nerf Assist
Whats next, nerf carriers drone bandwidth? remove sentry drones? What Mittani inspired whine are you going to fold to next CCP?
How about ADDING to the game rather than the continuous folding to one section of the community who's sworn aim is to destroy the game?
When can we expect the drone tracking and optimal implants? Thats right, when Mittens cries about it behind his pay wall. |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
10102
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:55:00 -
[522] - Quote
Tsikuu wrote::slowclap:
Nerf Omnis Nerf Assist
Whats next, nerf carriers drone bandwidth? remove sentry drones? What Mittani inspired whine are you going to fold to next CCP?
How about ADDING to the game rather than the continuous folding to one section of the community who's sworn aim is to destroy the game?
When can we expect the drone tracking and optimal implants? Thats right, when Mittens cries about it behind his pay wall.
You getting all bitter towards someone else doesn't help you. You chose to chase an overpowered mechanic. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |

Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
487
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Posted - 2014.02.06 20:56:00 -
[523] - Quote
Tsikuu wrote:How about ADDING to the game rather than the continuous folding to one section of the community who's sworn aim is to destroy the game?
Where did Goons, The Mittani or the CFC say they want to destroy the game?
I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC. -- TheGunslinger42 "**** goons, they only kill stuff that can't shoot back, they aren't killing us fast enough, they missed my ****** Ibis so they failed, CCP ban goons they shot my ship." -- Distracted |

Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
339
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Posted - 2014.02.06 21:01:00 -
[524] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
You getting all bitter towards someone else doesn't help you. You chose to chase an overpowered mechanic.
Blob much? I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |

Ragnen Delent
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
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Posted - 2014.02.06 21:03:00 -
[525] - Quote
Tsikuu wrote::slowclap:
Nerf Omnis Nerf Assist
Whats next, nerf carriers drone bandwidth? remove sentry drones? What Mittani inspired whine are you going to fold to next CCP?
How about ADDING to the game rather than the continuous folding to one section of the community who's sworn aim is to destroy the game?
When can we expect the drone tracking and optimal implants? Thats right, when Mittens cries about it behind his pay wall.
I actually like playing Eve Online a spaceship game, this drone assist change just shows how many people apparently don't. |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
10102
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:03:00 -
[526] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Blob much?
How does it feel to have your space repossessed by your masters? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19173
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:05:00 -
[527] - Quote
Tsikuu wrote:How about ADDING to the game rather than the continuous folding to one section of the community who's sworn aim is to destroy the game? They are. In this case, they've added viability to non-drone setups.
Quote:When can we expect the drone tracking and optimal implants? Thats right, when Mittens cries about it behind his pay wall. What on earth ar you on about? 
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

WK XI
ATW Corporation CareBear Union
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:11:00 -
[528] - Quote
Maybe this way:
Everyone start drone assist 0.
After learning small drone assist Level 5 (1x), get 5 assist.
After learning medium drone assist L5 (4x), get 5+25 assist.
After learning big drone assist L5 (8x), get 5+25+50 assist.
can be more ? |

Sheeana Harb
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
15
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Posted - 2014.02.06 21:11:00 -
[529] - Quote
Imouto Tan wrote:Sheeana Harb wrote:CCP Rise wrote: We believe a flat cap will:
Limit large scale assist substantially
Leave room for smaller scale assisting (there are several use-cases for assist that we wanted to preserve, such as incursion drone managers)
Be very easy to communicate to players
Affect carriers more heavily than sub-caps (because they can field 10 drones per ship rather than 5)
and will make further adjustments.
As an active incursion runner I strongly believe this change will (negatively) affect incursions as it's not uncommon to see more than 70 drones(small and medium) at a single site. On the other hand, heavy drones and sentries aren't used due to their slow dps application(heavies) or the need to keep moving(sentries). Is it possible to have separate caps for sentries and small/medium drones? The current 50 for sentries and let's say 100 for small/medium drones? Use two people for drone assist then? The idea is to not have ~1000-1250 drones assisted to the same person, and making them go down to having 50 target callers reduces the advantage of drone volleys, etc. If you need 70 drones, or even 100 drones, having 2 callers instead of 1 is hardly an inconvenience.
70 drones is by no means the maximum you can see during a HQ site. I used it as an example. So your 'solution' is useless. |

Djakku
Hit Approach and Activate Everything
148
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:11:00 -
[530] - Quote
Meh, doesn't change anything for the majority of the player base, who cares.  |
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Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
339
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:13:00 -
[531] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:
Blob much?
How does it feel to have your space repossessed by your masters? A thought provoking, logical and excellently drafted come back there.....You obviously have a very valid argument.
Now run along and complain to your pet dev's.
I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |

Dave Stark
4330
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:13:00 -
[532] - Quote
Sheeana Harb wrote:Imouto Tan wrote:Sheeana Harb wrote:CCP Rise wrote: We believe a flat cap will:
Limit large scale assist substantially
Leave room for smaller scale assisting (there are several use-cases for assist that we wanted to preserve, such as incursion drone managers)
Be very easy to communicate to players
Affect carriers more heavily than sub-caps (because they can field 10 drones per ship rather than 5)
and will make further adjustments.
As an active incursion runner I strongly believe this change will (negatively) affect incursions as it's not uncommon to see more than 70 drones(small and medium) at a single site. On the other hand, heavy drones and sentries aren't used due to their slow dps application(heavies) or the need to keep moving(sentries). Is it possible to have separate caps for sentries and small/medium drones? The current 50 for sentries and let's say 100 for small/medium drones? Use two people for drone assist then? The idea is to not have ~1000-1250 drones assisted to the same person, and making them go down to having 50 target callers reduces the advantage of drone volleys, etc. If you need 70 drones, or even 100 drones, having 2 callers instead of 1 is hardly an inconvenience. 70 drones is by no means the maximum you can see during a HQ site. I used it as an example. So your 'solution' is useless.
it's not even that using more drone bunnies is an inconvenience. it's just that the original post makes no sense. he made special mention of not wanting to affect incursion runners, yet clearly contradicts that with a 50 drone limit. |

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
294
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:15:00 -
[533] - Quote
i guess i don't understand the incursion whining
did you consider adapting your techniques to use four drone assists instead of one
it's not like it's a massive change, and being a drone assist requires you to give up at most two targets and one civilian railgun to trigger with |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19173
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:17:00 -
[534] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:it's not even that using more drone bunnies is an inconvenience. it's just that the original post makes no sense. he made special mention of not wanting to affect incursion runners, yet clearly contradicts that with a 50 drone limit. Specifically, he says that he wants to preserve incursion drone managers. Even with this limit, they're preserved. Even with half the limit, they'd have been preserved. You still have one guy controlling an entire cloud of drones. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

Theodoric Darkwind
PonyWaffe Insidious Empire
305
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:17:00 -
[535] - Quote
Ok now that you are nerfing drone assist are you going to nerf the reason for drone assist?
Nerf the hell out of Sensor Damps, its the only fair thing to do. Drone assist was the only defense against the CFCs **** You Fleet.
Currently the Celestis is soo overpowered it alone has killed off all doctrines that are not either drone assist, or unable to engage from outside of 200km. Under current mechanics one Celestis can completely shut down 2 of any ship that isn't immune to EWAR.
You nerfed ECM for less than what the Celestis is currently capable of. |

Dave Stark
4330
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:19:00 -
[536] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:it's not even that using more drone bunnies is an inconvenience. it's just that the original post makes no sense. he made special mention of not wanting to affect incursion runners, yet clearly contradicts that with a 50 drone limit. Specifically, he says that he wants to preserve incursion drone managers. Even with this limit, they're preserved. Even with half the limit, they'd have been preserved. You still have one guy controlling an entire cloud of drones.
you don't because there's still 3/4 of the drones unassigned because he's at the limit of 50 drones... |

Trillian Stargazer
Origin. Black Legion.
12
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Posted - 2014.02.06 21:25:00 -
[537] - Quote
TL;DR of this thread.
whaaa i have to think. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19173
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:25:00 -
[538] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:you don't because there's still 3/4 of the drones unassigned because he's at the limit of 50 drones... GǪand that second cloud of drones is controlled by a second guy. The drone managers are still preserved. No amount of narrowmindedness can remove this simple fact.
So yes, yes you do. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

Dave Stark
4330
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:27:00 -
[539] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:you don't because there's still 3/4 of the drones unassigned because he's at the limit of 50 drones... GǪand that second cloud of drones is controlled by a second guy. The drone managers are still preserved. No amount of narrowmindedness can remove this simple fact. So yes, yes you do.
well no, he's not. you just told me he'd be controlling an entire cloud of drones. i just pointed out that he wasn't.
which also directly contradict's rise comment of not wanting to negatively impact incursion runners. |

Koby Botick
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
95
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:27:00 -
[540] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Koby Botick wrote:It is possible to use this but you need to artifically recreate correct synchronization which is a non-trivial problem. Languages with proper multi-threading come with those build-in and (more important) tested and used facilities for this kind of work.
I agree that python places much responsibility on the developer and other languages are better suited for that kind of work. I was just pointing out that python isn't as bad as people make it out to be.
Yeah, though it always depends how bad bad means. Python clearly has no, let's call it state-of the art multi threading support. However not all problems require that. If you happen to have a specific problem that needs state-of the art multi threading, then Python is a bad fit. Not all problems are such though, so Python is a perfectly fine language for solving a huge amount of problems out there. If you require some multi-threading, then there are ways around that where you can get satisfactory results with minor adaptations. Your link (which is excellent, thanks!) shows a few options:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
While the link is great (and so is his preceeding entry linked in the head of that post) I find that the conclusion of reading the article however is basically that the GIL is still not going away and that is still very unlikely to change any time soon. It also gives an overview in such sufficient detail that it's clear that none of those solutions will help EVE. I have no idea how much data a big fleet fight is (I mean the in memory state representation of a fleet battle) but I just assume it's several houndred MB worth all in all (including Python management overhead). No solution can really deal with that. multiprocessing is fine with splitting of a process that does its thing and has limited contact with its origin parent and brings data back. What you need in a big single battle where probably 99.99% of processing happens in one single grid is calculate and iterate over all actors repeatedly, changing state based on proximity, damage, etc. in short: work massively parallel on a huge memory region without any corruption. Single threadedness guarantees that, but does not perform. Multithreaded you need the support of the language for proper isolation while still ensuring stuff gets executed in parallel. And there is nothing in Python for that.
So while there are solutions for other problems, for this particular one we want here, there's none given. Worse, it paints a bit of a bleak outlook so you're on the safe side betting there won't be a solution for it anytime soon.
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Of course, Eve's codebase is 10 years old and written for Stackless, so adapting to current python versions and making use of improvements will certainly be a hard task.
Which is basically why I pretty much expect a full rewrite is required and thus I am saying that this won't get fixed ever. Even a minor break-out of a single functionality to offload into a seperate process (brain in a box) is long overdue. CCP seems not to care enough to assign serious resources to such undertakings - they are not really visible and marketing sexy. I mean they just had another great news event so apparently it works well enough in the state it is in. Additionally, the subject matter at hand is too technical and complex so to see that nothing will help except true paralellism in the server processing for anyone who did not do actual work in a field where you get bound on single thread execution speed on current hardware requires very specific in-depth knowledge which simply is not widespread. So they get away with vague responses that they work hard at solving it and "looking into it" which placates the majority asking for improvement in this area.
It won't come though. Not tomorrow, not in a year. Not in 5 years. Unless magically someone fixes the GIL problem in Python which the entire Python community tries to solve for.. what 14 years now? Or like I said, they rewrite the entire server code for fleet combat on grid. Potentially from scratch. Not. gonna. happen.
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