I'm geussing those preemptive insults were because you've sen these threads before.

Should have stopped there.

Personally, I'd like to see Local in Null and Low modified to where you appear on Local for some limited time after passing through a gate -- and then your "presence" is dropped from Local unless you actively post to Local.

It simulates the reasonable concept that a jumpgate notes your arrival and therefore that simple fact is updated to "Local".

After "x" number of minutes, let's say 5 for argument's sake, you no longer appear in Local unless you broadcast deliberately.

It can be argued that npc Empire factions have all kinds of apparatus in each system to keep track of any capsuleer's whereabouts. Big Brother is always watching.

In the deep dark of Null, nobody gives a damn. And certainly not the passive apparatus of Empire factions -- because it doesn't exist out there.

I'm on this eternum guys side of the fence in all honesty. Local should show how many people in system but not details. In low and null.

Why?

There is a large amount of pilots up for this but the vocal null sec isk milkers would not wish it and thus it won't be. Null sec is full of carebears it's really that simple, why would you want it to change aye? Sure you need to keep and hold your SOV, turns out local means you don't need to actually patrol it to keep your renters safe. nope, you just need region wide intel channels and a cyno. I'm not wrong, null sec players know i'm not wrong yet still you'll all hate to see this boat rocked.

Personally, I'd like to see Local in Null and Low modified to where you appear on Local for some limited time after passing through a gate -- and then your "presence" is dropped from Local unless you actively post to Local.

It simulates the reasonable concept that a jumpgate notes your arrival and therefore that simple fact is updated to "Local".

After "x" number of minutes, let's say 5 for argument's sake, you no longer appear in Local unless you broadcast deliberately.

It can be argued that npc Empire factions have all kinds of apparatus in each system to keep track of any capsuleer's whereabouts. Big Brother is always watching.

In the deep dark of Null, nobody gives a damn. And certainly not the passive apparatus of Empire factions -- because it doesn't exist out there.

I have to say I think this feature or idea has potential. The nuts and bolts could make things difficult.

Do you envisage local visibility being set by individual pilots with a click of a button at any time? Do you think there should be a countdown timer between local visibility activations/deactivations?
Do you envisage alliances being given the tools to set their whole alliance visibility?
Do you envisage this feature being limited to 0.0 or used in low sec and/or high sec as well? If you believe that different sec status should impact on local's structure, why?

Yeah god forbid we should actually be able to use our space to rat in.

Yeah god forbid we should actually be able to use our space to rat in.

Attentive PVEers in null have a tool that allows them to avoid confrontations they can't survive - clearly this should be taken from them so they can be even easier targets.

Thx for a constructive and engaging post, it is a nice change of pace


Individual Pilot Activation: Yes. And everything in eve has a timer so IMO it would not matter if this had one.


Alliance Given Tools To Set Their Whole Alliance Visible: If I was in an alliance I think that I would like this feature. It would prevent stupid people in any given alliance from making life difficult for everyone else.

So i'd say yes. That seems like a good idea. You should run for CSM


Feature Limited to 0.0: I don't think this should be an empire feature. Null, Low Sec and Empire are meant to be different environments in the game with different levels of risk and reward. So as much as I would love to wardec people in empire as much as I want with complete invisibility... i'd have to say no. I don't think this would be good for the game as an empire feature.

Low Sec I am indifferent. It could go either way.

But Null Sec... it seems like it is a worthy feature. I mean think about it, Empire has a static local, Null has a pod count and wormholes have nothing. That would be ballanced.

Perhaps the alliance you are in could see their way to setting aside a few guys to patrol your space. Pay them maybe? With the rent isk? Some user content RIGHT THERE. Oh wait that'd be silly, that isk I am sure would be better spent shooting at carebears in high sec that get angry they are getting stopped from making isk in a risk free envir........ wait a freaking second. I see some kind of pattern....

Null sec is not empire. If you can't cut it don't live there.

WTF are you talking about?
A pod count is exactly the same as what you have now, just without the character's name. What changes? Add something tangible to this argument one way or the other so we can at least discuss it.

What changes, indeed? Why are you even making this proposal, then?

The only thing that I would have concerns over is the status of low sec. The proposed system could make pipe ganks in low sec extremely easy. Having the same system for low sec and high sec could make the transition from empire to 0.0 of future potential 0.0 players from even more difficult than it currently is.

You have not posted a single valid counter argument so far... except for the fact that you want to keep your super stupid easy button. Even CCP stated that they wanted to do away with local but now it is too engrained to do so.

So what is YOUR reasoning on this matter?

I think you are probably right. Got any ideas?

I can't really counter arguments if you haven't even made any.

Nope. Making a feature to allow all types of game play that involves a transition through 3 different security zones, is opening a bag of cats.

I can't really counter arguments if you haven't even made any.

Yeah let's sit on a gate for several hours just so people can rat. What a fun and engaging gameplay mechanic.

[

That's what you got from 'patrol your space'? Wow, you either have no imagination or you are so used to arguing against changes to local that you're not actually putting any thought into what 'could' be.s

Current Local

(nuetral) Cancel Align NOW
(green star) James Amril-Kesh
(green star) Jmay Onzo
(red minus) Eternum Praetorian
(blue star) Weasiler

Proposed Local

(nuetral) UNKNOWN PILOT
(green star) James Amril-Kesh
(green star) Jmay Onzo
(red minus) UNKNOWN PILOT
(blue star) Weasiler

Seems like a better system to me.

Seems like the same system to me.

Did you read the OP? It's not removal of local. The idea is sound and you would not get any less knowledge of somebody being in your system, you just need to see them to find out who they are.

As for it being to get fights.... er yes, yes it is. Actually it's to generate content, in null sec. Currently null sec seems so devoid of it people don't play and turn to low and high sec to get their kicks. Unless a capitals tackled of course then it's **** LOG IN THE TITAN HUGGER CHAR.

I think one easy fix would be to delay someone's appearance in local. You should only show up once your session change cloak has ended.

After that, the ability for players to hide themselves from local is something we have needed for a long time.

The first null guy hopelessly reliant on his easy button local speaks. Dude, you can still know someone is there without knowing who is there.

Man you null guys really are scared ****less aren't you What?
WTF does it matter if you still know that someone is there? Why do you HAVE to know who is there? What is the gain? I don't get it.

You have not posted a single valid counter argument so far... except for the fact that you want to keep your super stupid easy button. Even CCP stated that they wanted to do away with local but now it is too engrained to do so.

So what is YOUR reasoning on this matter?

Idea of mine behind this is to reward actually living in space that you own be that you or your renters and make it fell less like a frontier in habited space and more so in places where it isn't.

Note that I left w-hole activation from the list just because it makes to much sense and might leave a cyno as well because you don't arrive to a system through a gate in both cases.

Yeah let's sit on a gate for several hours just so people can rat. What a fun and engaging gameplay mechanic.

It can be argued that npc Empire factions have all kinds of apparatus in each system to keep track of any capsuleer's whereabouts. Big Brother is always watching.

In the deep dark of Null, nobody gives a damn. And certainly not the passive apparatus of Empire factions -- because it doesn't exist out there.

Your only argument for removing Local is to make finding fights easier.

Removing Local makes all these other usages I've described more difficult..

And seriously, hiding me in Local makes my job mining rocks a lot easier. I'd be happy if that change was made. You don't want this. It's a terrible way to suck a lot of content out of 0.0.

So nothing is made more difficult for you as you suggest. Everything for you remains the same except for the fact that you don't get instant identification of who is in local 10 jumps away while you are docked in station. No one should have that power, it is a poorly designed game mechanic. It is just now so ancient and engrained in EVE that it is not obvious to people anymore. You're living in NULL sec. Null sec not Empire and that should mean something.

No one should have that power, it is a poorly designed game mechanic.

you still have provided no reason for a change beyond "i don't like it"

noone gets instant identification of someone ten jumps away

No one should have that power, it is a poorly designed game mechanic.

yes they should and no it's not.

Another stealth chat thread

IB4L

Sure i have you just don't like it.

WTF world are you living in? Do you really expect any of us to believe that?

Why? Why should people docked many systems away know that specifically I am there? This is not the spirit in which EVE Online was founded. Even the devs stated that local could use some fixing, it is just that people like you cry quarts every time a fair improvement is submitted.

Mostly... because you have no real PVP skill and do not realize that such a change would hardly effect you at all. See post #53 and #54. Your ignorance and fear make you imagine a world were simply not knowing a character's name would make Null Sec a PVP free for all. That is just not the case at all.

Why? Why should people docked many systems away know that specifically I am there in the most distant and dangerous (Null) part of the game board? This is not the spirit in which EVE Online was founded. Even the devs stated that local could use some fixing, it is just that people like you cry quarts every time a fair improvement is submitted.

Mostly... because you have no real PVP skill and do not realize that such a change would hardly effect you at all. See post #53 and #54. Your ignorance and fear make you imagine a world were simply not knowing a character's name would make Null Sec a PVP free for all. That is just not the case at all.

I'm on this eternum guys side of the fence in all honesty. Local should show how many people in system but not details. In low and null.

Why?

There is a large amount of pilots up for this but the vocal null sec isk milkers would not wish it and thus it won't be. Null sec is full of carebears it's really that simple, why would you want it to change aye? Sure you need to keep and hold your SOV, turns out local means you don't need to actually patrol it to keep your renters safe. nope, you just need region wide intel channels and a cyno. I'm not wrong, null sec players know i'm not wrong yet still you'll all hate to see this boat rocked.

I like this Idea.


May the nullsec would required an ihub with a new upgrade to track peoples in local.
If not : no local (unless you speak in local).

The background could be explain by the way you said.

Whaaa! I don't like something so CCP needs to change it!!!

I want cloaked players to not show up in local, includingthe cloak when jumping in from a gate or wormhole. Decloak, appear in local, cloak up, disappear from local.

Attentive PVEers in null have a tool that allows them to avoid confrontations they can't survive - clearly this should be taken from them so they can be even easier targets.

what happened to the eve uproar I used to know and love?

..... what happened to the eve uproar I used to know and love?
Well... time to make some AFK cloaking threads I guess. Peace out.

you still have provided no reason for a change beyond "i don't like it"

noone gets instant identification of someone ten jumps away

No one should have that power, it is a poorly designed game mechanic.

yes they should and no it's not.

Attentive PVEers in null have a tool that allows them to avoid confrontations they can't survive - clearly this should be taken from them so they can be even easier targets.

I'm all up for this. It would be cool to have a system upgrade that would reveal all pilots though. This would increase the work that goes into intel for empty regions of space without significantly changing the risk for ratters and miners in more populated areas..

WTF world are you living in? Do you really expect any of us to believe that?

Why? Why should people docked many systems away know that specifically I am there? This is not the spirit in which EVE Online was founded. Even the devs stated that local could use some fixing, it is just that people like you cry quarts every time a fair improvement is submitted.

Mostly... because you have no real PVP skill and do not realize that such a change would hardly effect you at all. See post #53 and #54. Your ignorance and fear make you imagine a world were simply not knowing a character's name would make Null Sec a PVP free for all. That is just not the case at all.

the game does not tell you who's ten jumps away.

Yeah god forbid we should actually be able to use our space to rat in.

most people in null sec don't chat in local anyway. They chat on fleet coms and in alliance/corp chat.
It's just that... well... If only my picture and name was not just floating there for all to see all of the time.

That seems too one sided towards the PVP side of things. Everyone would become an AFK cloaker in any ship they wanted. So, as cool as that would be I cannot agree.

I live in a country where running my own business means I spend 4-5 hours a month doing mindless record keeping for the tax department. I did that today. While I did that I had eve running on my secondary monitor. I had an alt docked in a pipe system entering a well populated 0.0 region. When ever a gap appeared in my list of green stars, blue stars and blue crosses I linked the name beside the gap into a regional intel channel that I know was being monitored over 28 jumps away.

I watched as players next door did the same, and the players next door to them, and the players next door to them...

It may not be instant, but any decent 0.0 sov holder has this system organised to the point where an average pilot like me can travel the same pipe that 2-3 separate groups of hostiles are using, only caring about the hostiles if they are in system at either end of a jump bridge I want to use.

Oh look, more ******** lore justification for a balance change you can't otherwise justify apart from "I want it to be this way."

Bring a cyno, your buddies couldn't be bothered to even leave their staging system in the next constellation.... too much (YAWN) effort....

OP has a few good points,

why should null bears who are docked up have an eye and ear on everything, 'where is the risk'? for so much reward especially in null sec the allegedly most dangerous part of New Eden.

Local chat is too powerful as it is

It should be delayed at the very least but preferably the same as WH's

any one who opposes this change are generally null bears or botters and have not got the true essence or longevity of eve in mind.

This is why null local should remain exactly like it is. So what if we can see who you are when you only have to send one pilot in to find a target for 20+ other pilots?

Besides, OP's complaint is that his targets know what he flies, not just who he is. This is his own fault, not local channel's. If you didn't continously hunt the same areas over and over and over and over and over again, you'd probably get more targets. Ask any RL hunter.

I have been complaining about local for over a decade now. Good luck there.

To wit: A lot of the original devs stated that local should have never been used as an intel tool...most notably TomB was very infamous for hating it (being a dirty griefer that he is). We got wormhole space, so at least be thankful of that.

Yeah let's sit on a gate for several hours just so people can rat. What a fun and engaging gameplay mechanic.

I see a constant complaint that local is effort free.

Then the ludicrous claim that well maintained Intel channels are too easy, or provide too much for the effort.

Local should be and always should have been treated the same as Alliance and W-Space Local. This notion that you must be able to immediately know everyone in the system is ludicrous in a game as hardcore as EvE. It would be like playing an FPS and hacking the radar.

So you suggest we take the least popular area of space, and make all of eve like it. All of these threads that cry about local have wormhole space. Why not go there? Maybe because most people think the game play there sucks.

I would be, if wormhole space was not effectively such a fringe aspect of the game as a whole.

Unfortunately, WH living is an extreme play style, which also excludes all of this:

Live and stable gate connections to other sections of space, and between internal systems.
Outposts, NPC and player built both. This includes the sub category of med clones and jump clones as an additional difference.
The Market. Present in all it's glory, even if only stocked by player activity and some minor NPC items.
Cyno capability, both covert and regular.

Local not being present is simply not the defining element of a WH. It is simply one among many differences.

And for your next trick, you imply that the reason for this lack of popularity is because of local being absent.

And the other differences, well, they are just details that everyone simply loves and adores...

Pointing out WHs as an option, especially on equal terms to null except for local, is ridiculous.

No local and the bait and blob pvp no local encourages is the main reason wormholes suck. The rest of this is no big deal at all.

I hate to break it to you, but the blob PvP style is distinctly favored by places that have local.

To suggest that a guerrilla style tactic would be more successful is disingenuous, since such tactics rely on an element of surprise not available with Local operating.
Pilots thusly prepared either reship into combat ready craft, or avoid contact altogether.

Your not breaking anything to me other than how your perceptions miss the mark. Local is how you avoid blobs. It is in local that you can see there are 30 other people from the same corp as that bait harpy or prophecy. Without local everyone else in their corp can be sitting cloaked right next to it waiting for you to try to attack. The lack of sufficient intel tools to make intelligent pvp choices is why wormholes are bad and good pvpers tend not to go there.


This may come as a surprise but not everyone in eve is looking to avoid pvp. You only think of pvp in terms of killing industrials or situations where one person clearly doesn't want to pvp and you just have a gank. I agree limiting local will increase ganks. But it will decrease good fights far more than its worth.

Nikk Narrel

The most active space for pvp is low sec and null sec - not wormholes. This is because low sec has a local that gives you some intel to help you intelligently choose a fight. Wormholes do not so you are just begging to get ganked.

I can see from your combat record that you probably don't understand how that works. Over an over again we get these "nerf local" threads from people with pvp experience similar to yours. Like was said above you might try pvping in some places with local and you will learn why it is a very important tool to finding fights and good ones at that.

This is exactly what we do in wormholes. Local is a cancer and it needs to go.

Everyone who said this is so stupid I don't even have words for it.

For one, you can't cyno into wormholes, so there's no chance of you getting hot dropped ever.

With the ratio of players present in these areas, you would pretend that this speaks more about something besides the sheer population being present?


Ad hominem for the win, eh?

You are poorly prepared if you think to discredit me from a search on this alt's PvP credentials. I use Nikk in a supporting role, which makes kills in either direction unlikely, IF I do it right.

More than this, you will simply have to wonder about.
All I will say here, is what I have said elsewhere... I have been on both sides of the fence regarding cloaking vs PvE play, and that fence is named local.

It keeps these two sides neatly separated, and keeps PvP either consensual or based off of mistakes by one side.

There are lots of consensual fights.
There probably always will be.
This detail is not significant to this discussion, though you keep bringing it up.

Its not an attack on you to say you really don't understand why local helps pvpers find quality pvp. You can post with an alt if you want but your alts combat record is in line with the comments you make. You seem to think that mechanics are balanced for pve or pvp. You fail to understand that local is one of those mechanics that helps both pvers and pvpers.

If you want me to believe you really do understand how local helps people find quality pvp why don't you demonstrate it by stating all the reasons you know that and why people argue that nerfing local will just help people who want ganks and blobs. Since your posting on an alt you can't assume people will see you know what you are talking about so perhaps you can actually demonstrate that by giving the arguments from the other side.

That also has potential - Let's take that a step further. If it can be built by Empire Factions it should be able to be built by player owned alliances in 0.0. Therefore lets introduce a multi levelled anchor-able & online-able system upgrade that allows the bears to keep broadcasting who is in local for longer, say a 5 level upgrade where each level adds an extra 20 minutes of broadcast time on gate activation. The upgrade may need to be fuelled to keep working, could be with topes, pi components or with goo - topes makes more sense to me.

EDIT: The more I think about it the more I like the idea of a system information upgrade. Creates a reason to have small gang warfare. A roam could turn into an intelligence gimping op that allows the sneaking in of other forces.

IF you remove pilots showing up in local, you will see the game numbers drop to 1/10 they are now.

This is completely rubbish and there is no basis for this statement.

Local is the cause of many issues and is not consistent with the concept of EVE. Having a continual reporting system is the problem.

You cannot make that claim either.

The difference between null-sec and W-space is not solely the absence of a local channel.


To be honest there is so much whining about change to the status quo that you will eventually just have a game like an X-universe (at least in null-sec) where PvE is the only option.

Anyone who plays for the competition and challenge of PvP will be in FW or will have left the game.

If no local really provided better PvP there would be allot more of it in wspace.

None of the other differences would keep players out. The PvP in wormholes is bad. You have insufficient Intel to make intelligent choices.

There is less PVP in wormholes because there is less people. There are less people in wormholes because all you chickens have blobbed together in Nullsec. It's as simple as that, and I think it's OK.

I find the idea that null without local is constantly being compared to wormhole space, absurd.

Wormhole space =/= (null - local)

That's like comparing a city block with the lights out, to being like the wild jungle. Sure, neither has working streetlights, but this hardly makes them equals.

I find the idea that null without local is constantly being compared to wormhole space, absurd.

Wormhole space =/= (null - local)

That's like comparing a city block with the lights out, to being like the wild jungle. Sure, neither has working streetlights, but this hardly makes them equals.

You keep saying that but you never indicate why there is so little pvp in wormhole space. Here is the thing if no local made for better pvp many more people would live in wormholes. It doesn't matter that there is no market or that there are no medical clones or that you live out of a pos. If the pvp was better many more people would live there. But its not better, its worse.

This goes hand in hand with your inability to explain how local is important to finding good quality pvp. You simply don't know what you are talking about.

So little PvP in wormhole space?
It is probably attributable to the fact that the population in WH space is that much smaller.
Seriously, they don't run into each other by accident as often, and they tend to be more careful about their actions.

Why are their fewer people in WH space?
It is very inconvenient compared to regular space, since it is missing:

Live and stable gate connections to other sections of space, and between internal systems.
Outposts, NPC and player built both. This includes the sub category of med clones and jump clones as an additional difference.
The Market. Present in all it's glory, even if only stocked by player activity and some minor NPC items.
Cyno capability, both covert and regular.


Yeah, I can't say local helps find good quality PvP... at least, not how I would define good quality PvP.
How this is a failing to my argument is also a mystery.
All I see are consensual fights taking place, with genuine strategic targets often proving immune to persecution.
If you are keen on asking your opponent's permission first, good for you.

I also cannot explain bronies. Again, this seems to take away nothing from my points, but we somehow got on the topic of things I cannot explain...

PvP is very low in wormhole space per person in wh space or system. However you want to break it down.

We both agree not many people want to go in wormhole space. You claim its because they don't have a market and you have to live in a pos. But really if the pvp were better it wouldn't matter. Its not like most pvpers in low or null sec completely rely on the markets in low or null sec.

Having a market or a station in system does not effect most of the actual pvp. Losing local does. That is why pvp in wormholes is bad, and few bother with it.

Why is low sec so full of people? Because you can find good quality pvp quickly. Local has allot to do with that.

If people want no local they can go in wormholes. But the vast majority prefer known space. Making all the space more like the space most people prefer not to play in is a bad idea.

The intel channels run by alliances and coalitions are quick and easy for players to report, simply by dragging and dropping the player name, system etc. It takes two secs and you can have half of EVE aware of a neutral player or group moving through a system.

With larger groups the intel becomes very regular and detailed. This is not a bad thing and is developed by alliances and creates great content.

The issue is the local window broadcasting everyone in a system, their details, when they enter and when they leave. This is totally overpowered and eliminates content from EVE.

As soon as a neutral player enters a system occupied by an alliance member, the intel report goes up to the whole alliance and everyone within X jumps will move immediately to a safe or a station.

You can roam through null sec for hours not finding anyone unless they are AFK, a newbie or someone who wants a fight and brought 10 players with them.

Why is null sec stagnate = The Local Window is a big part of the issue.

Remove the Local Window and replace with deployables which provide limited range and time notification to the players in the system.

Have the system pull down reports on players after 1 min (or some other timeframe) instead of the current instant and cotinuous reporting process Local provides.

Ok, point one... PvP occurrences based on accidental encounters, changes with population at far more than a 1:1 ratio.
Each player not present removes a chance from EVERY hostile potential, not just a single individual.

Does local become the deciding point for these players?
ONLY if they are focused on strictly consensual encounters, and wish to effectively avoid PvP the rest of the time.

A supply chain is vital, and cannot be eliminated, for PvP actions. The absence of a market may not affect an individual pilot specifically, but those MUST have logistics in place that need to overcome far more obstacles than their null counterparts do.

You may not have transported that ship out, to replace your recent losses, but someone had to do it for you.
And it's a fairly safe bet the WH logi guy needed to be more diligent and resourceful than a pilot making a similar trip to null.

Nikk Narrel
Ok, point one... PvP occurrences based on accidental encounters, changes with population at far more than a 1:1 ratio.
Each player not present removes a chance from EVERY hostile potential, not just a single individual.

True enough and more people are now in low sec and null sec because the pvp is good. If the pvp were really better in wormholes they would be crowded. But the pvp sucks so they are empty.

Nikk Narrel
Does local become the deciding point for these players?
ONLY if they are focused on strictly consensual encounters, and wish to effectively avoid PvP the rest of the time.

Wrong and again it shows you don't know what you are talking about.

Nikk Narrel
A supply chain is vital, and cannot be eliminated, for PvP actions. The absence of a market may not affect an individual pilot specifically, but those MUST have logistics in place that need to overcome far more obstacles than their null counterparts do.

You may not have transported that ship out, to replace your recent losses, but someone had to do it for you.
And it's a fairly safe bet the WH logi guy needed to be more diligent and resourceful than a pilot making a similar trip to null.

I generally transport my own ships and mods to where ever I base. It's not that hard to do. Just about every corp has someone who can help with that if you are new.

Supplying a pos in a worm hole is not much different than supplying a low or null sec station or pos.

Uhhh, yeah... did you even follow what you just said?

The low population makes the PvP worse, and the population is low because the PvP is worse.

Now, I can stretch that to almost make sense, but you should probably stick to points with less circular logic.

I should point out, that if being able to choose when you fight is not important, then convenience aspects described as the difference between null and wormholes are pushed into higher significance.

Now, if you can explain how local does something other than offer the ability to avoid non-consensual PvP, in the context you claim that it promotes PvP, I would be interested.
Really, I would. I can set my ego aside, and seriously accept a valid argument, should you offer me one.

Except, they can't just dump them into their outpost, and contract them out to players.
Assuming they has a POS with a ship storage online, they can dump them into that, and everyone uses the honor system.
Oh, and someone borrowing a ship with good intentions, (or even by mistake), is the same end result as theft, if you can't reship when you need to because it just isn't there to be used.
Entire game sessions can be lost, if you don't have the right tool for the job.

This is completely rubbish and there is no basis for this statement.

Local is the cause of many issues and is not consistent with the concept of EVE. Having a continual reporting system is the problem.

This is completely rubbish and there is no basis for this statement.

You cannot make that claim either.

The difference between null-sec and W-space is not solely the absence of a local channel.

As this cyno to hot dropping aspect being removed, I believe also removes the foundation for the rest of the argument James put forth

It doesn't. If you bothered to read the rest of what I wrote you'd realize that they don't even address cynos at all.

1. For another, you generally have a fixed number of entrances and exits that you can keep track of, whereas in K-space there may or may not be a wormhole in the system, making it questionable whether it's worth trying to scan one down.

2. Your PVE encourages good scanning skills, so your line member is more easily able to find wormholes. We generally don't need that.

3. The nature of wormholes allows you to change these connections whenever you so choose, so that if you're displeased about where the wormhole leads you can collapse it.

4. Wormhole PVE is generally done in fleets with omni-tanked ships and logistics. This is a setup that makes you vastly more capable of defending against incoming threats, especially considering mass limitations on wormholes limits the size of fleets that can attack you. PVE anywhere else, with the exception of incursions, favors local reps with resists specific to the incoming damage of the rats. Anything else makes the setup inefficient and the money making even worse, as anemic as it already is in nullsec.

5. Which brings me to my last and most important point. Wormhole PVE is vastly more profitable than nullsec PVE, which is what allows you to rotate pilots out for doing nothing other than guarding wormholes. They're fine with that because the time they spend doing PVE nets them a comfortably high amount. If we ever told our ratters "you can only rat for three hours, and then you have to guard gates for three hours" they'd **** off to highsec because at that point they'd be making much more ISK, much more safely, just doing that.

6. If you wanted us to do this, you'd have to increase nullsec ratting rewards by like 200% at least to make it even remotely viable.


7. So kindly stop with the "we guard entrances in w-space, you should too!" because it makes you look like an idiot for completely ignoring all of the other differences that make such a system viable in w-space, and not so in k-space.

If no local really provided better PvP there would be allot more of it in wspace.

None of the other differences would keep players out. The PvP in wormholes is bad. You have insufficient Intel to make intelligent choices.

I disagree.

The driving factor for most PvPer's is "Effort". They are generally lazy. They look for combat as soon as they log on and they want the "rush" and the "fun" now.....

... I can see the outcome of this going in one of a few ways, non of which are preferable in my eyes.

a) People will take to fitting stabs like they do in FW, meaning a solo PvPer has next to no chance of actually catching a ratter or miner with their pants down, which would force either fitting multiple points to ensure catching the prey, sacrificing other modules and limiting the fitting choices they can make, or people flying interdictors, unless I am mistaken stabs don't mean you can warp in bubbles, though I may be wrong on that I've never tried it.
If people started bubbling it would give rise to people ratting in a T3 hull with interdiction nullifier fit to counter it.

b) If someone came into system, people would just react the same as they do to a cloaky camper, they would dock up, POS up, take a JB to a different system, jump their carrier away or generally just avoid the possibility of a fight, also, due to intel channels and the likes, even if they disappear in local, all surround systems would have eyes in them, so you'd still by combining adding them to watchlist and the other systems eyes, know if they were here, you'd see them log out, you'd see them move to an adjacent system, if you don't see either, they are still here.

c) You have made nullsec function in near identical manor to WH space, I am sure if you did that, a percentage of people would choose to simply move into WHs, as the risks would be nearly the same, lack of a local needing to constantly D-Scan etc. but the isk I am told is much better in WH, again I may be wrong, I don't WH.

...

C> Your assumption that "(null - Local) == Wormhole space" is flawed.
Null without local is more comparable to a city block with the streetlights out, while WH space is more akin to a rainforest jungle.
Neither has working street lamps, but you can step into a "department store / Outpost" in one, and those "freeways / jump bridges" won't be found in the other either.

You keep saying that and refering to a very vague analogy. But you never really explain how the actual pvp is different other than no local. Yes no cynos but most pvp in null and low sec does not involve cynos anyway. Whether there are stations or not does not change how pvp is done.

The only thing that really changes pvp wise is the lack of local. And the pvp is the reason many people subscribe to eve. And the lack of local is why those pvpers overwhelmingly decide not to go to whole space.

You are trying to hide behind vague analogies because you do not have the pvp experience in null or low sec to understand that from a pvp perspective no local is the biggest difference between wormholes space and the space that 95% of eve players prefer.

You keep saying that and refering to a very vague analogy. But you never really explain how the actual pvp is different other than no local. Yes no cynos but most pvp in null and low sec does not involve cynos anyway. Whether there are stations or not does not change how pvp is done.

The only thing that really changes pvp wise is the lack of local. And the pvp is the reason many people subscribe to eve. And the lack of local is why those pvpers overwhelmingly decide not to go to whole space.

You are trying to hide behind vague analogies because you do not have the pvp experience in null or low sec to understand that from a pvp perspective no local is the biggest difference between wormholes space and the space that 95% of eve players prefer.

the lack of local is why those pvpers overwhelmingly decide not to go to whole space.

You have nothing to support this claim, besides your apparent faith that it must be true..

You deliberately ignore that losses in PvP, requiring pilots to reship if not awaken into a fresh medclone, are far far easier to do in null space..

You can't even access med clones in a WH.
Buying a new ship, if you did not set any reserves in the POS? There is no market in the WH either..

Oh, nice ad hominem, attempting to discredit me again on your lack of details about my PvP experience.
It is neither your business, nor relevant to this discussion, the nature of my past kills.

Nikk Narrel
You have nothing to support this claim, besides your apparent faith that it must be true..

Well that and actual pvp experience - which lack as well as reasoned analysis based on that experience.

Nikk Narrel
You deliberately ignore that losses in PvP, requiring pilots to reship if not awaken into a fresh medclone, are far far easier to do in null space..

In fw and sov null sec you can't dock and use stations either. Med clones may or may not be close to the action in any event. You would know this if you pvped instead of just theorized about it.

Nikk Narrel
You can't even access med clones in a WH.
Buying a new ship, if you did not set any reserves in the POS? There is no market in the WH either..


If you did not stock your pos.... Again most pvpers in null and low sec do not rely on the local market to fit their ships. Everyone needs to stock up on their fittings. This is not unique to wormholes. Again you would know this if you pvped.


Also gate camps show up on local as well. I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Do you think making a larger percent of pvp in eve gate camps is a good thing?

Nikk Narrel
Oh, nice ad hominem, attempting to discredit me again on your lack of details about my PvP experience.
It is neither your business, nor relevant to this discussion, the nature of my past kills.

Experience is important to understanding how the mechanics effect pvp. Its not a personal attack on anyone to say they have very little experience in pvp in eve. People can play eve how they like and many never pvp. Its not an attack but people who don't pvp will obviously not understand the mechanics so well. I think your post demonstrates that.


These threads are almost always brought up and defended to an exhausting extent by people who have very limited pvp experience. If they have any at all it is based on ganking freighters and pve ships or blobbing. But usually they have about as much as you.

Sounds like wh space with hot drops. Sounds terrible if you're trying to rat/mine/carbear. Sounds awesome if you're ganking/hotdropping. Overall terrible idea. You could have an iHub upgrade that grants local to defenders and a futher upgrade that denies it to non alliance members. Isk Sink etc etc.

Ya know, I'm really tired of all these local threads, so why don't CCP do somethign about it.

Do this. Run an event for a week-10 days (2 weekends included, I know thats when most players get to play)
Make up some bull about how Sansha incursion forces released a virus into the gates communications sytems or some crap, and that killed off local playerlists for a period of time. Concord is working on it, and it should be fixed by the end of the week.

Make the change (test them out on the test server first, or just copy the local code over from WHs) let it run for a week, see what happens, and then we'll have a metric to run these arguments against in the future.

Nikk Narrel
Its clear to me you do not pvp in low or null sec and therefore you think things like the great low and null sec local markets are why people are pvping there instead of wormholes. Nothing I can say can make up for your lack of experience and understanding.

I admit I do not not know what you are getting at with respect to gate camps and how that is really relevant to having or not having local. Without local a larger percent of the pvp will be similar to gate camps in that they will be lopsided ganks. But beyond that I don't know what your point is.

Worm hole dwellers can put their ships and fittings in a pos. They can fit them to a doctrine if they like. But that is not what is preventing people from scanning down a wormhole jumping in and pvping. Nor is it the lack of medical facilities in wormholes. If no local really made for better pvp people would jump in there and pvp. But it doesn't, so they don't.

You claim that the reason people don't pvp in wormholes is because its too hard to stock a pos. Perhaps we can just agree to disagree.

Your combat record is a fact. It's a fact from which one can logically conclude you have very little pvp experience. That conclusion is further backed up by your comments. I don't know you at all. The only thing I know about you is what you post here and what your killboard says. Both demonstrate you really don't understand how no local will effect pvp in eve.