I have lost count of the amount of times I have told you what would happen if you just nerf power projection. Fine, ignore the facts, lets take this down another path. If you nerf power projection how are alliances going to survive out on the edges of null?

Local production would be a start. Not like its hard to move stuff with blockade runners either. Done it 1000 times to using regular gates, and wormhole chains that happened to be open that day. Often though territory that I wasn't allied with, and before the balance pass to BRs.

1. If towers had no timers we would burn everything in null and lowsec in a matter of weeks. Both us and PL/N3 have the firepower to torch every tower in an entire region in two days. Its happened before.

2. In 2008 venal residents not only held off the old NC but wiped out their entire supercap fleet while outnumbered. Small fleets used to win vs bigger ones all the time back then because logi were nowhere near as effective as now. Today those same fleets cant even score any kills. RR is responcible for this, if its not fixed then small alliances wont be viable in null unless they join a largepowerblock.

3. Yes, any system will have to be goon proof otherwise we will abuse it. CCP have been forced to make several changes to the game due to our actions from the FW isk fountain to barge buffs to nerfs to sentry drone use.

4. Nothing would make us happier than having all of our space taken off us, I look forwards to that day. A stagnant null is not in our interests hence why we are pushing for the plan we have.

2. This sounds like pure claims since neither rrs nor the ships that usualy fit them have been changed in any meaningfull way if we ignore t1 logis and frigs wich went from garbage to okish. Could you elaborate how rrs have become more effective and in what way you would want to change , so that a big gangs donot profit as much from them as small gangs , how will you address RR BS / RR T3 and RR Carrier (with atleast the last having a major role in evening the odds for certain alliances while beeing outnumbered).

Quoting sucks on my phone.


So baltec. If theres a 5ship limit stacking penalty, or is it a 5 rep penalty ( so only 2 carriers can rep you at once before taking penalties). Also how does it mesh with say getting reps from a triaged carrier, relative to a non triage carrier? Or reps from a logifrig, 20 shield repair bots, and a logistic cruiser? Is there just a set limit, cant rep more than x per second? Or like current EWAR equipments that have a stacking penalty, so depending on the... quality of the reps, the highest quality one goes through, while lower quality ones are penalized

Also, how does it affect cap chaining?

Also how does this affect carriers, that though theyre supposed to be logi ships, can put out BS level dps, while repping and imbalanced amount compared to the nonsiege damage dealing ability of a dread?

So.. since cap transfers would probably be affected by this change...
Would neuts and nosses be stacking penalized as well?

None of those would be impacted. Cap transfers would not be touched, just the reps.

Iight.

So heres a thought. Most carriers generally run 2-3 reppers, an energy transfer, triage mod, and often a bomb of some sort or a cloak.
How bout (at least for caps) each carrier can only carry 1 repper (of each type, since everyone runs armorfleets, they can if they wish do 1 armor 1 shield and 1 hull, or they can trade the unbonused shield and hull reppers for 2 extra highslot mods),

Carriers and logiships get rebalanced around their single repper by buffing their bonuses. Spidertank bses might take a hit, but perhaps down the line other balance changes could even it out.

Or the repper itself could be buffed, and then nonbonused logi operations (spidertanked bses and bcs come to mind) would benefit. (Although when doing some fact checking just now on eft... arent local reps and remote a little out of sync with eachother? And wht is with the micro remote shield booster...)


This way ccp could have a much easier time balancing it perhaps. Because then itd literally be 5 carriers worth of repping?

Also in the case of subcap logis, they might start carrying smartbombs of their own, or perhaps packing those weapon hardpoints and contributing to the antifrig element or something.

OH yes bring RR nerf!

3-4 modules active to a station rep fleet! YES! I have one week to rep this ****!

Nerf the RR let the scrubs stay up 2 days to rep their tower from RF!

let the small guy stay up and rep sov structure for ages!

If you are going to nerf RR don't do it only for ships! do it for the fun of this game!

They couldn't possibly balance it such that more modules worked while repping structures now could they?

Also, at the same time going on that whole structures argument we were having earlier in the projection chat. Wouldnt, say 10 carriers maxing out on reppign a station or something, also be the limit that THEY can use? Thats at least a case of some stuff that I could muster the forces to do just as effectively as they could, power projection aside.

Lesse an archon in siege is probably repping ~3600 armor per second (3 reps) or 900 out of triage.
If you triage a single archon it'd take you ~4.5hours (260 minutes) to rep 50mil HP (Yes I know, shields and all, but I just happened to have an archon open on EFT). Split that across 10 archons, thats ~ 26 minutes.
Ofcourse you might not rep in in triage, and well then your gonna take 4x as long, so a little over 100 minutes or an hour and a half.

But hey lets jump to conclusions suddenly. (note that this would be running off of my 1rep per ship, rebalance. YMMV depending on other methods of balancing the reps)

@ Wayne: Adding more systems in the current system is nonsense they would be taken just as fast , the Point was and is Powerprojection must be hit hard with the nerfhammer.

@ baltec1: So Basicly you want to soft cap rrs while damage still works n+1 ? That does sound stupid to me ignoring the absoulute numbers you suggest. You said it yourself the Problems is your numbers aka the blobb , rigs do play a Part however the umber of available reps didnt actualy change in 2008/9 RR BS were a huge thing it basicly meant that you had 150 reps spread over 150 ships but resulted in the same amount of reps you get nowadays from 25ish logis .Lets just assume you would be rght and the amount of reps did go up significantly , so did the damage on most ships .
A Cap to rrs will help the larger groups more than the small ones as theyll just go the way of the Shotgun as they can afford taking more losses anyways.

3-4 modules active to a station rep fleet! YES! I have one week to rep this ****!

Well if you just make RR also being affected by resistances then this is very easy to fix , just by removing resistances.
It will impact all fleets in grate manner without affecting repair of structures.

Lets assume that we can repair 1000 hp per cycle , but ship have 90% maximum against one type of damage then only 100hp will be repaired by cycle.

We will have finally split doctrines - hey we need ALL types of battleships in a fleet !

To the dude above me. Triage carriers are really REALLY not the problem. Its the carriers that while out of triage with 2-3 reps can rep 600-900dps per second, and can direct the reps from 50 carriers onto a target. Over 30k damage repped per sec before considering resists so its really closer to 100k dps taken off the field. They dont need to triage, because then a single carrier would be killable.

hence why i also said they should either nerf that kind of rep based on sig radius or number of reps on grid, pantheon set ups ( slowcats, wrecking-balls etc ) are very difficult to kill, but 12+ alpha nags can pop them 1 at a time and there are other ways to kill them as well. Especially if you keep them bubbled in station and they cant deploy it effectively.

Constantly checking number of reps on grid is counterproductive and would be a heavy strain on the server. Thats why aoe ongrid boosting is still a myth because itd be such a drain.

Bumping ships is doable, but in 10%tidi very unviable. Also it takes a lot of bumps to bump stuff out of rep range. Esp armor ships.

And at the same time, most of your solutions are only for subcap logis not carrier reps, also jams rent highly effective in fleet settings where every ship is getting 50% better sensors than base.

Sigrad based reps would be maybe doable, but wouldnt it be rather unbalanced? I dont know the specific ruleset for the reps, but shield ships are often rather high on sig compared to their armored bretheren. Depending on the balance, you may make shield ships even less desireable to have around. Or they might be vastly better at recieving reps(larger ships get fuller reps from largr rep sources, thing like exprad and sig for missiles) than armor due to their inherentpy higher sigs.

that end part coupled with the faster cycle time of shield reps could actually mean more shield cap fleets out and about since the rep would be that much better